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The Echoes Podcast dives into real-world questions about community, faith, and human connection. Guided by hosts Marcus Goodyear and Camille Hall-Ortega, each episode explores personal journeys and societal challenges with inspiring guests—from faith leaders and poets to social advocates—whose stories shape our shared experiences. Through conversations with figures like Rev. Ben McBride, who moved his family to East Oakland’s “Kill Zone” to serve his community, or poet Olga Samples Davis, who reflects on the transformative power of language, we bring to light themes of belonging, resilience, and the meaning of home.
From the creators of Echoes Magazine by the H. E. Butt Foundation, The Echoes Podcast continues the magazine's legacy of storytelling that fosters understanding, empathy, and action.
If you polled a crowd of people and asked, what's the toughest job anyone could have? I'm betting a good number of folks would say parenting. Sixty two percent of parents say that parenting is harder than they expected. Nearly half of millennial parents 46% say they feel burnt out. With every stage of parenting, from infants to toddlers to parenting teens, challenges abound. As a mom of a three and five year old, I hear I've got lots to look forward to.
Camille Hall-Ortega:But there are tips and tricks to this parenting game, right? Constancts and predictability that help make the path a bit more straight? Crystal Kirgiss, our guest today, would answer those questions with a resounding yes. Crystal is an expert on adolescence, and she says that the core traits of adolescent youth, how they think, act, and grow, have stayed pretty consistent over the centuries. Essentially, Kirgiss claims the behaviors we see in adolescents today are really a tale as old as time.
Camille Hall-Ortega:So what can we learn from these centuries old patterns of human development? What tips and encouragement can we derive from the trends that so often seem to lead to frustration for parents and teens alike? From the H.E. Butt Foundation, this is the Echoes Podcast.
Camille Hall-Ortega:On today's episode, we're welcoming doctor Crystal Kirgiss. Crystal is an award winning writer, a teacher, and a national speaker. She currently works as the director of discipleship content and partnerships for Young Life, a Christian ministry that works to grow the faith of middle school, high school, and college students all over The US. Crystal is also an expert on adolescence, having completed a PhD in medieval literature and linguistics with a focus on the history of adolescence. We're thrilled to have her here today.
Camille Hall-Ortega:I'm here with my co-host, Marcus Goodyear. Welcome, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss:Thank you. It's lovely to be with you.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Marcus Goodyear:We're so glad you're here.
Crystal Kirgiss:I feel like we should first make a caveat about being an expert in adolescence. I don't think that's actually a thing or possible. It was very kind. It was very kind, but I am not an expert in adolescence.
Marcus Goodyear:I don't know. I I feel like we named you as an expert in my opinion. That's that's what it's worth.
Crystal Kirgiss:I'll take it.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Right. We vote yes. But that's fair. And I think actually we're going to get into some of that of why it might be this idea or this thing that would be really hard to be an expert at. I think we can talk some about that.
Camille Hall-Ortega:But first, just getting started, Crystal, will you just tell us what is adolescence? What ages does that even include? What does it mean?
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. Well, it's from an old Latin word, adolescentia, and which just means youth if you were to translate it straight up. So but it's been used, the word adolescence, has been used for a very long time to refer to a stage of life that is between childhood and between adulthood. I think for a long time, there was sort of this popular idea that went around that if you went back far enough, you just were a kid, and then all of a sudden, one day you were an adult, and there wasn't this transitional stage. But this transitional stage has been recognized and talked about and described and defined for a long time.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Okay. I find that really helpful because I think people would really want us to pin down the age. Let's just jump right into that. What are the findings that you've seen in relation to these kind of through lines or patterns in adolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. Well, you know, research didn't look the same back in the fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hundreds as now. So you can't look up lots of research. You can just read concrete texts from that time and see what people were saying. And the notions that there was starting to be a lot of emotional upheaval, that appears over and over again.
Crystal Kirgiss:The tendency to sometimes make decisions rashly without thinking them through carefully. That description comes in over and over again. The tendency to push back, challenge boundaries, challenge authority. That description shows up over and over again. The tendency to start asking hard questions or doubts about faith, that shows up over and over again.
Crystal Kirgiss:So there were a lot of fears for a long time about the fact that if the youth of the church or the adolescents of the church aren't embraced and solidified in their faith, there's not gonna be a church in another generation because they're the generation that's up and coming. If the rising generation didn't rise to the challenges of having a rooted faith, then what was gonna happen to the church?
Marcus Goodyear:Well, and the culture, right? Because their faith and church and culture, that was all bound up. So it was almost a desire to see the culture perpetuate and to see the culture have stability.
Crystal Kirgiss:Sure. Sure. It was. I think there might be also a myth that everybody was involved with faith, and that's not the case. But it was maybe a little more woven into the day to day lives of people than it is today. But yes, there were so I think there were a lot of fears about youth, teenagers. Actually, the word teenagers isn't a new word either. There are, no, there's, there are sermons and parenting books going back many hundreds of years that talk about how now they get into their teens in quotations, they might say, or in parentheses, as we say, kind of like teens is a scare quote word. They get into their teens, and now they now they don't wanna do what you tell them to do, or they are pushing back on school or on church attendance or whatever it might be.
Crystal Kirgiss:There was a lot of fear because teenagers could recite all the ballads of Robin Hood, like all the popular, narratives, but they didn't know the Our Father, and they didn't know the creed.
Marcus Goodyear:Oh, the evils of Robin Hood.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. Yeah. When when novels were a new thing, they were afraid about novels. When little Broadstreet songs that they sold on the corner for a penny were a new thing, and they're they're disgustingly dirty. They're very awful. There was worries about that. There was worries about dancing. There was worries about all the same things that there are worries about today.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Wow. Okay. So I can imagine that these characteristics playing out over time lead to a lot of the things looking very similar in a lot of ways. But I'd love to hear more about how the times really can lead to something different. Like our lives don't happen in a vacuum.
Camille Hall-Ortega:I think we're living in a time right now where technology makes things seem to look really different than perhaps it would be for folks going to the fair and buying German college.
Crystal Kirgiss:Sure. A teenager growing up in 2025 looks very different in some ways than a teenager growing up in 1525. But I would add to that, so does being an adult. And I think sometimes we focus all the differences on adolescents, and we forget that it's impacting us as well. So sometimes we feel like, we're we don't change. Whoever we are as the adult, we just stay constant. But those kids, that everything's changing. So are we. So that's that's just an important thing to keep in mind that we we tend to isolate it or point it all on them when it's just as much us.
Marcus Goodyear:That's a really good point.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. That's a huge point. I want us to even unpack that more. What does that mean? What does that look like? Can we boil it down a bit?
Crystal Kirgiss:I think if we could, we would have the answer to so many questions.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yes. Right.
Marcus Goodyear:Yes. Alright. Let's do it. Alright. I want those answers.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. This I don't have an answer, but this would be one of the things I've thought about in that regard.
Marcus Goodyear:Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss:One, some people's then immediate responses.... Well, then I have to figure out everything about culture so that I can be more aware of teenagers. And I would say to that, you don't have to know the lyrics to one single new song or have watched one single new show or played one single new game or whatever else there might be to understand teenagers and adolescents if you just spend time with them. It's way more important to get to know them than it is to get to know culture. You can get really sidetracked by that.
Crystal Kirgiss:And the other thing would be you could know everything there is about Gen Z or Millennials or now Gen Alpha, and it is not going to make any difference in... let me back up. Knowing everything about those generations isn't going to help you know those people unless you spend time with people of different ages.
Marcus Goodyear:It's a marketing demographic in so many ways. You know? They're using generational theory to sell t-shirts and to sell movies and whatever.
Crystal Kirgiss:Very nice point, Marcus.
Crystal Kirgiss:My kids, Camille's kids, are younger than mine. Mine are 20 and 24. And so we just, I suppose we're still in the teenage years based on what you said earlier, but I feel like we're coming out of it. And for me, I actually had very little anxiety about needing to discover the culture my family, we took those tours of culture together. So my son became our tour guide, my daughter became our tour guide, and we just discovered what they liked.
Marcus Goodyear:And so there was some resistance to us shadowing them. My son in particular is very private, my daughter as well. And so they would say, Why are you asking what we're watching? Why are you looking over our shoulders when we're on the computer? And there was a degree of wanting to protect them. But more than that, it was just, I'm interested in what you're interested in.
Crystal Kirgiss:Mhmm.
Marcus Goodyear:And it's not more complicated than that.
Crystal Kirgiss:You use the phrase cultural tour guide, which is a brilliant that is a lovely phrase to use.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss:And I think inviting your kids to do that for you could be a beautiful thing as long as you're ready for what might be a pushback that I I'm of course, I'm not gonna do that. You're the last person I would want to have here. But that's a really lovely image, Marcus.
Crystal Kirgiss:You should do something with that. How to be how to invite your teenager to be your cultural tour guide, which doesn't mean you're inviting them to make all the decisions or to be the head of the family. But I always find that when you ask a student what they're interested in, you allow them to be the expert in something.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss:You can usually have a pretty good conversation.
Marcus Goodyear:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Camille Hall-Ortega:I love it. We've mentioned some of the generations that are alive. Right? We've talked about Gen Z. You talked about Gen Alpha.
Camille Hall-Ortega:I am a millennial. Marcus is Gen X.
Marcus Goodyear:Woo hoo. Gen X.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Represent, we're representing multiple, multiple generations here. I know that the youth that are in adolescence right now or the generation that includes folks that are in adolescence right now is Gen Z. Is that correct?
Crystal Kirgiss:And in middle school, you've got Alphas as well.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Okay. Yeah. Some grammarian.
Crystal Kirgiss:I even I hate that I just said that. Have alphas as well.
Marcus Goodyear:I know what you mean.
Crystal Kirgiss:Because I, yeah. I just I don't know how long we're gonna be able to do this because I think the the descriptions of generations tend to be centered around either big cultural events or worldwide events or technological events. And at some point, those are going to shift too quickly for us to keep making new generations. Even right now, Gen Z, the gap that they embrace, the people on the high end of it and the youngest end are really far apart in what their experiences might have been in culture. So I just wonder generational theory is not it's a fairly new thing.
Crystal Kirgiss:You know, it didn't really start until the twentieth century. And I wonder if it's gonna fade out after a while because things are simply changing too fast for us to define-
Camille Hall-Ortega:Because of technology?
Crystal Kirgiss:Because of how fast technology is changing. Absolutely.
Camille Hall-Ortega:We know boomers, they're a generation defined by World War II. Know the silent generation. We know the greatest generation. So we know the things that sort of defined those generations were not about technology so much.
Crystal Kirgiss:I wonder if even generational theory developed because there were so many changes happening, we wanted to put some parameters and definitions on it. Before that, we were defining people by the stage of life they were in. You were a child. You were an adolescent. You were a young adult. You were an adult. You were a senior adult or an advanced adult. We keeping it within the lifespan. Now we're defining it by other things, which I haven't thought about this that much, but that's very interesting to me. It's like we're taking it outside of ourselves.
Marcus Goodyear:Well, and we're breaking our ability to connect with the other generations because historically, perhaps I might have said I'm somebody in my 50s, but now I say I'm a Gen X'er, which means I'm able to connect to the other people who are Gen X, but I'm separating myself from the people who are 50 before me. And I'm separating myself from the people who are gonna be 50 after me. It just makes me wonder how useful are these labels? I mean, they are they really helping us do anything more than just sell stuff?
Crystal Kirgiss:I think if you're using it as a label- for I work with teenagers.
Marcus Goodyear:Right.
Crystal Kirgiss:And so I work with Gen Z right now. But my husband's been in youth work for 35 years. He just says he works with teenagers. He didn't at one time say, I work with millennials, and I work with Gen X, and now I work with Gen Z. He just says, I work with teenagers because that stays constant.
Crystal Kirgiss:I don't know if we're gonna keep defining generations or if at some point we won't. We're very jazzed about talking about generations right now. It's a very hot conversation. I don't know if we will be for much longer. I don't know, maybe.
Camille Hall-Ortega:But I would say that I feel certain important distinctions from Gen Z and certainly from Gen Alpha. And I feel really what feels like important comradery with Millennials. And I don't know if that is because I'm told to, right? Society kind of hypes it up for me, but it does feel like, oh my gosh, I can look over to a Millennial and say, NSYNC or Backstreet Boys. And there's no question, we both have an answer to that, right? And maybe that feels silly, but there's there is this connection that happens that does not always happen if I'm asking my mom that or if I'm asking someone from Gen X that.
Crystal Kirgiss:Sure.
Camille Hall-Ortega:It's not gonna be the same.
Crystal Kirgiss:It could be because you're a Millennial or it could be because you grew up in this year, which is kind of connected. Or it could be because you're the age you are. I mean, that could be because of a lot of things. We do like to have categories. Actually, that's a very medieval thing. Like, the need to categorize and organize is not a new thing. I think the bigger question is what are we doing with that?
Camille Hall-Ortega:Right. Right.
Crystal Kirgiss:Is it serving us, or does it just fill a need in us to kind of put a post it note on everything and put it in a file and contain it? Or does it move us forward in some way? And I certainly don't know the answer to that.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. I think these are big questions. I can see how it can be detrimental or shallow and not useful. And I can also see how it could be, I don't know, this thing of, I know that millennials share with me that they can remember where they were on 9/11. And I know that the generations after me cannot.
Camille Hall-Ortega:They weren't born or they don't remember. And I know that my kids don't remember the pandemic. They are pandemic babies, but they don't recall it and they won't recall it.
Crystal Kirgiss:Sure. But is that the most important thing? That's the one question is, Are we, are we putting more importance on things than we should or on the wrong things? Those are huge questions.
Camille Hall-Ortega:And in the end, I would still say the bigger call on our lives is to actually know people, not know about generations
Marcus Goodyear:Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss:Or not know about a life stage, but to actually know people, which is way harder.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Really important stuff, really important. Now I know, Crystal, you are working with Young Life and you have this background in research in adolescence. I would love to know, you've touched on it a bit, but I would love to know first how your research on adolescence and your knowledge of adolescence, how it informs your work and how you see these trends in adolescence play out in faith in general.
Crystal Kirgiss:Okay. Wow. Big question. First of all, I don't do a lot of contemporary research in adolescence. We do have some people who do that. But my research, if you will, from my PhD was in ancient things. And so part of that happened because-
Marcus Goodyear:Ancient means how far back?
Crystal Kirgiss:I I went back into the a 900's, a little bit when when people were first kind of defining, you know, eight stages of life, they weren't doing generational theory like today, but they were doing stages of life. And it was usually divided into four or 10 or 12. You know, they try and connect it to something in the larger universe, like the seasons or the months or the planets or whatever. But I still find that very interesting. I'm just getting home from conference with some pastors
Camille Hall-Ortega:Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss:Where I talked about the history of youth over time.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss:For them to hear what pastors have been saying for a long time, what parenting manuals have been saying for a long time. Once you once your children hit this age, this is what you might face. This is what you might experience, and this is what you should be ready for. Like, talking about once you hit this age, moms, you're gonna need to start pouring into your daughters more. Their emotions, you'll understand more. Their interests. Dads, you need to start figuring out what your sons seem to be interested in so that you can direct them to the correct apprenticeship that's going to match their interests and their skills and abilities. I mean, these are not new conversations.
Crystal Kirgiss:So hearing what was said or reading about what was said in parenting manuals for one is very fascinating. And those have been around for a very long time, probably before printed books. But as certainly as soon as they were printed books, there were books for parents.
Marcus Goodyear:People have asked me how I raised my kids. And I have said that there's this Bible verse that says raise them in the way they're bent and they won't stray from it, Which means to me to pay attention to where they want to go. So in a sense, I would follow their lead. So when my son was interested in video games, I was like, great, let's build a computer. And so I would try to take the things that were interesting to them and-
Camille Hall-Ortega:That's such a Marcus answer.
Marcus Goodyear:You know, are we trying to-
Camille Hall-Ortega:You want a video game? Make it.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. Well, but he did. I mean, he was 12. He was 11 or 12. And you can look these things up online. I mean, it's hard, but it's not that hard. Anyone can do it.
Crystal Kirgiss:Wow.
Marcus Goodyear:And so we built a computer. And of course that did wonders for his confidence. And my daughter, she wanted to play violin. So it's like, okay, great. Let's get a, you know, we just follow their lead. She wanted to do mock trial. So we follow that, we show up. And I feel like that is different than what I imagine a lot of parents hear when they hear lead.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yes.
Marcus Goodyear:I'm imagining, I don't know that I've seen this, I have seen it for some, but I imagine parents are saying, I need to give my kids the prescription to follow so that their life will be good. I feel-
Camille Hall-Ortega:Or like God, right? We're Christian parents also. So for us, might be hand them the guidebook that we know is number one.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Not one for Barnes & Noble.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Sure.
Crystal Kirgiss:Marcus, that what you just said is so interesting because what you were doing was you weren't letting your kids go, this is how I want you to parent me. You were tapping into what they were interested in. You were tapping into their interests, passions, and hobbies, and saying, there's a there is a really good connection point for us right there. But you weren't saying, why don't you tell me what kind of hours you wanna keep and how you want to spend all your free time? Right? No. We want your curfew to be...
Marcus Goodyear:Who would that? Who would do that?
Crystal Kirgiss:Well, I will say there are parents today who feel that they should be their teenager's friend. That's their best shot at any- I know. Following their lead is not following them, nor is it I do think there are some things that we still dictate as parents of teenagers. You are still the parent, and and you are you have every right to dictate.
Crystal Kirgiss:Sounds like a terrible word. You have every right to make decisions for them and for your family based on your role as a parent. That's fine. So some people back off way too much. Some people, press down way too much.
Crystal Kirgiss:And I think there's a middle space. A lot is changing in adolescence. In some ways, they're dealing with identity development. They're dealing with figuring out how much autonomy they have to make their own decisions and be independent people. And in that period of time, we're hoping that their faith cements itself.
Crystal Kirgiss:And think about how ironic that is. This is the stage of life where they're like, I'm gonna figure out who I am, and I'm gonna make my own decisions. And we're saying there is a God who his presence, his realness, defines your identity. And our job is to completely surrender ourselves to him at a stage of life where someone's going, I'm gonna make my own decisions and decide who I am. In some ways, it feels like it should be a total clash, which is why it's such an important stage for life or for faith to be real to them.
Crystal Kirgiss:It's also easy for parents of teenagers to simply tell them what to believe or tell them what you believe, but not to also share with them your faith experiences. Like, this is how I'm experiencing the Lord right now. This is what I'm praying about. This is what's difficult for me in my life of faith. They need to hear what their parents' faith experiences are, not just their faith framework for them to see that faith is a real thing beyond just the exterior of what's going on.
Crystal Kirgiss:And I actually think that's one of the hardest things to do as a parent. I don't think I did it very well. I wasn't even aware of it at the time. But it's a skill and a habit and a mindset that I think is really important for Christian parents to have.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. That's so good.
Marcus Goodyear:I want to go back to this idea of how much boundaries that parents give their kids and the idea of balancing freedom and engagement and boundaries that really are designed to protect our kids. I was very aware of those. Although I will say one of the things we decided to do was never make decisions based on fear.
Crystal Kirgiss:Oh, that's lovely.
Marcus Goodyear:So this is a slight tangent, but I saw this video, I don't know, fifteen years ago about this guy who was blind.
Marcus Goodyear:I think Camille's heard this story before. And his parents- He's blind. He's a kid. And his parents buy him a bike because he wanted a bike. And he had this method of clicking so that he could kind of get a sense of echolocation of his environment. And I thought to myself, your kid is blind and you buy them a bike.
Marcus Goodyear:I want to be that brave with my kids to follow their interests. Still, you don't just send them off down the mountain bike trail, but to let them explore. And so thinking about that, thinking about the balance between freedom and structure and freedom and boundaries reminds me of this clip we've queued up. I'd love to listen to this with you from from Laity Lodge and Allan Josephson and and get your take on it.
Allan Josephson:Tell me what I do right for a change. I want you to understand that I have my own life to live. Balance with that is do I have a guide? Freedom without structure is a problem, and it's really linked to that. So children need regularity and structure, certain boundaries define safety. There's been research that has shown when fences were taken away from playground areas, kids were more insecure, and when the fences were put back, they were able to play with more freedom. They huddled in the center of the of the playground without that. So so boundaries define safety, and they also define freedom. They could only enjoy that freedom unless there was structure, so that there's panic with freedom without structure. It's got to be balanced.
Marcus Goodyear:What do you think?
Crystal Kirgiss:I think that's true for everybody, including adults. When I listened to it, I thought, isn't that true for all of us?
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah.
Crystal Kirgiss:Can you imagine taking 10 kids and putting them in a gym with a ball and two baskets on the wall and say, you have twenty minutes. Go. With no definition about what they're doing or what the boundaries are, what the goal is, or what the point is.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. The rules make the game.
Crystal Kirgiss:Every game has rules that give it life and meaning and excitement and value and purpose and identity and all of those things. I think boundaries do that for all of us at different stages of life. The challenge in adolescence is that they are moving from a stage of childhood where we are really defining all the boundaries and making many decisions for them. And adulthood where they're going to have to do that all for themselves or more so than now. And we're at this transition stage where that is still a role that we play.
Crystal Kirgiss:But we also have to allow them to learn how to make decisions and learn how to even set some of their own boundaries that are healthy for them. And if someone could write the book that would tell all of us or could have told me when my kids were that age how to do that, we would have this whole thing figured out. Right?
Camille Hall-Ortega:We want folks to know just as this episode comes out, that this is not just an episode for parents. Right?
Crystal Kirgiss:Oh, yeah.
Camille Hall-Ortega:That we talk a lot about being good neighbors and being good to your community. What are some takeaways that people who don't have kids can can take from our time together concerning adolescence?
Crystal Kirgiss:Really, really great question, Camille. I have a friend, Mark Ostreicher, who does a lot with teenagers, and he has said this. I've heard other people say this. I've said it. If you can shift from thinking that adolescence is a stage of life or people to be solved to these are people to get to know and love. That might be enough right there.
Marcus Goodyear:So simple.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. If you if you are a church attender, if your church has a moment when they you greet somebody, intentionally greet a teenager. They will go greet children or their own age, but there's the stage of life that just gets overlooked. At stores where you're shopping, there's a lot of teenagers who are cashiers, and they almost always wear a name tag. Thank them by name. Treat them like the beautiful, lovely, God created person that they are. Even if they don't reciprocate, most of them will. They're really very lovely people once if you take the time to get to know them.
Marcus Goodyear:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you give respect, you get it back.
Crystal Kirgiss:Yeah. And I think being a good listener would be another if you know a teenager and you ask them about their life or ask them what they're interested in in a way that's not doesn't come off as I'm here to fix things for you or I'm here to help you. If you just treat them like a human being, I think you can have some really lovely conversations. And you then may be one of the adults. I knew this as a parent.
Crystal Kirgiss:My kids didn't need just me and their dad. In fact...
Marcus Goodyear:Mentors.
Crystal Kirgiss:They needed lots of other people in their life to see them and know them.
Marcus Goodyear:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Crystal Kirgiss:If you don't have teenagers of your own, you might be one of the people who a teenager needs to help them navigate this stage of life, feeling like they matter to somebody, really matter, and that they're really seen and someone really cares about them and who they are.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Well, that's great. I think that's really a great place to end. I think you've given us a lot to think about and a lot to hope for, which we really appreciate. Thank you, Crystal.
Crystal Kirgiss:I think we should always be very hopeful. Always.
Marcus Goodyear:Yes.
Camille Hall-Ortega:Yeah. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for all of your insights. We're grateful.
Crystal Kirgiss:Thanks for inviting me. It was a delight to visit.
Camille Hall-Ortega:The Echoes Podcast is written and produced by Marcus Goodyear, Rob Stennett, and me, Camille Hall-Ortega. It's edited by Rob Stennett and Kim Stone. Our executive producers are Patton Dodd and David Rogers. Special thanks to our guest today, Doctor Crystal Kirgiss.
Camille Hall-Ortega:We recently featured Crystal in Echoes Magazine and you can read the article online at echoesmagazine.org. While you're there, consider subscribing. You'll receive a beautiful print magazine each quarter, and it's free. You can find a link in our show notes. The Echoes Podcast and Echoes Magazine are both productions brought to you by the H.E. Butt Foundation.
Camille Hall-Ortega:You can learn more about our vision and mission at hebfdn.org.