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Ben Espinoza - Why can Star Wars teach us theology? by Browncroft Community Church
If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. I am one of the co-hosts, Peter Englert. I'm here with our illustrious co-host, Aaron Mercer. And then we actually have our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder, who's going to be co-hosting with us today. We are here to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. Now, today's question, you might not feel comfortable asking in church, but there's even more to it. The question we're asking is why can Star Wars teach us theology? We are here with a professor, administrator, three different hats.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: The Reverend Dr. Benjamin Espinoza.
Ben Espinoza: Thank you.
Peter Englert: How are you?
Ben Espinoza: I'm good. How are you?
Peter Englert: I'm good. You know what? We're not even going to jump into the... We usually have this co-host talk. We're just going to go right in.
Ben Espinoza: Let's do it. Let's do it.
Peter Englert: Awesome.
Aaron Mercer: Well, hold on a minute, Peter, let me jump in there. I'm excited about this. I'm want to give a little co-host talk here, for a second. So first of all, I'm excited that this is coming out on May 4th, which is a Wednesday, by the way, so it's unusual for us. But you know what? Star Wars, 45th anniversary of Star Wars.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: Why not?
Ben Espinoza: That right.
Aaron Mercer: So I wanted to say I'm excited. I've been prepping for this thing, Peter. I'm excited about it. I was watching last night, I've been going through season two of The Mandalorian.
Ben Espinoza: Fantastic.
Aaron Mercer: Again.
Ben Espinoza: Good.
Aaron Mercer: Because I'm really looking forward to the next season that comes out. Really, I'm looking forward to another Star Wars something. I think Obi-Wan is coming out next.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, that's right.
Aaron Mercer: But while I was watching it, it got me ready for this conversation because it's the episode where The Mandalorian is bringing the passenger to a moon planet so that she can bring her eggs to go to her husband, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, they get stopped by two X-wings who would tell them to, ping them and tell them who they are. He thinks he's scott-free. And he says, "May the force be with you." And they say, "And also with you."
Ben Espinoza: That's right. I love it.
Aaron Mercer: And so I'm like, man, right there. We've got a theological cultural connection going on there and I want to explore it. The show was awesome too. Sorry, go ahead, Peter. I just had to get in there.
Peter Englert: I am very happy about it. Ben, we'll have you say a little bit more about yourself in the podcast, but...
Ben Espinoza: Perfect.
Peter Englert: Let's just back up for our listeners. Why write a book about Star Wars and theology?
Ben Espinoza: No, that's good. I'm so glad to be here with you all. I'm really looking forward to having this discussion. So what happened was a few years ago, there was this book series that my friend, Matthew Break, started called, Theology and Popular Culture. So what he notices that there were a number of book series on philosophy and popular culture, I think psychology and popular culture, looking at James Bond, Star Wars, Star Trek, different franchises, but he noticed that there wasn't anything specifically on theology.
Ben Espinoza: So he said, "Okay, this is a gap in the scholarly literature." So he decides to go to this one publisher and say, "Hey, we should have this book series." And the publisher says yes. So there were a couple volumes during the time that I think they had the call for papers. So there was one on theology in the Marvel Universe, which came out. And then he was also looking for other books to be in the series.
Ben Espinoza: And I thought, "Well, I like Star Trek. I like Pixar movies. But I really love Star Wars." So I thought, "Okay, theology and Star Wars, it'll be great." I'm thinking by that time, I think my son was about one year old at that point, and I was like, "Okay, by the time this comes out, there's going to be a lot more Star Wars stuff for kids. And I'll be able to share this with him." So I thought theology and Star Wars, let's do it. And that's what happens.
Ben Espinoza: So I got the contract and started soliciting my own call for papers, since a lot of authors contributed to this volume. And COVID pushed things back a little bit. This was going to come out sooner, but it got pushed back. But ultimately, I love Star Wars. I love theology. I love the connections between all of them. I know some people think that you can't blend certain things from Star Wars and Christian theology, that that conversation shouldn't happen. But there's very much a lot of us who think that those conversations can and should happen because as Christians, we're called to engage contemporary culture with the heart and mind of Christ. So love Star Wars, love theology, love the intersection of the two. And that's why you have Theology and the Star Wars Universe coming to most book sellers near you in June, I think.
Aaron Mercer: All right. All right.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah. Okay. So before we get too deep, top three Star Wars movies. Go.
Ben Espinoza: Top three?
Nathan Yoder: Yep.
Ben Espinoza: Oh my goodness. Empire Strikes Back. The Last Jedi. Rogue one.
Aaron Mercer: Interesting.
Nathan Yoder: Wow.
Aaron Mercer: In that order?
Ben Espinoza: I think so.
Aaron Mercer: Okay.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. It changes on a daily basis because I think about at this every single day. But today this is how I'm feeling. And I'm feeling contentious. So we're going to have some good debates.
Aaron Mercer: Nice.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: So just for our listeners and viewers, I'm not really the theology nerd, but I am. Nathan and Aaron are going to be running with this. So now you two have to answer what your top three Star Wars are.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: And I will say too, it's notable that Nathan and I both have Star Wars shirts on right now.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: We're sort of nerds, I guess.
Ben Espinoza: I love that. This is good. You do you, you do you.
Aaron Mercer: You want to go? What are your...
Nathan Yoder: Yeah, I would say number one, A New Hope. I just love the classic...
Ben Espinoza: Love it.
Nathan Yoder: Adventure. You can't beat it.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Nathan Yoder: Empire Strikes Back, number two. Revenge of the Sith, I think is my favorite.
Ben Espinoza: Okay. Yeah. Okay. There's a good argument that can be made for that.
Nathan Yoder: I mean, my generation is more the prequel era.
Ben Espinoza: Sure, sure, sure.
Nathan Yoder: I'm not a purist. I like all kinds of Star Wars.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. That's good. I like it.
Peter Englert: Wait, this is a little too nice. I thought we were going to get contentious.
Ben Espinoza: I want to affirm these ideas though.
Nathan Yoder: Before he destroys me.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly.
Nathan Yoder: This is great.
Ben Espinoza: There you go.
Aaron Mercer: I remember the original ones and I was a little kid when they came out. Not the 1977 one.
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Aaron Mercer: So I always feel a little bit bad when I say that my favorite one of all of them is Rogue One.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: But I really like Rogue One a lot.
Ben Espinoza: It was really good.
Aaron Mercer: I think that it's really good. And also I will probably have to go with, after that, I'm going to go with Return of the Jedi.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: I enjoyed that one a lot. Maybe it's because of when it was in my childhood too. That's the one really I remember the best as a kid.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: And the ewoks are great. And the speeder bikes, the speeder bike.
Nathan Yoder: Yes. Love them.
Aaron Mercer: And then, I think I'm going to, it's a hard choice for number three. And I know this is not a traditional choice, but I actually really enjoyed the Solo movie.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Aaron Mercer: Because I think part of it was, it was really like people weren't giving it at a lot of credit and before I saw it. And then when I saw it, I was like, "Oh, it's actually pretty good."
Ben Espinoza: I liked it too.
Aaron Mercer: It's a summer flick.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah. I was totally down for it. It was good.
Aaron Mercer: Peter, do you have any thoughts?
Peter Englert: I'd probably say...
Nathan Yoder: Wrath of Khan
Ben Espinoza: Oh, poor Peter.
Peter Englert: No, probably be Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Rogue One.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Peter Englert: At the end of the day, and I could be really wrong, as long as you don't say Phantom Menace is second to last place or the last.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Peter Englert: I mean, are we...
Ben Espinoza: We can go there if you want.
Peter Englert: Is that the worst Star Wars movie?
Nathan Yoder: That's the silence of nobody wants to be torched yet.
Aaron Mercer: Well, are you including the Christmas special or something? Because that was pretty bad.
Nathan Yoder: I would say the 10.
Aaron Mercer: You got to include just the movies.
Nathan Yoder: One through nine, Solo, Rogue One.
Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Phantom Menace, probably.
Peter Englert: Your collective silence tells me, you agree with me.
Aaron Mercer: No one wants to say that any of them were bad. Because none of them are bad.
Nathan Yoder: I disagree. I don't think that's my least favorite. I don't hate any Star War movie, but I would have to say it's either eight or nine for me. One and two I think are notoriously... They're the bad movies. I think where the prequels...
Aaron Mercer: Jar Jar Binks. I mean, come on.
Nathan Yoder: Where the prequel is our not very good movies, they succeed in vision. I think. They do a very good job of, not filmmaking, there's a lot of mistakes you can see, but I think overall, the story that George Lucas was trying to tell, I think I really got behind that as a kid.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, definitely.
Aaron Mercer: So what didn't you like about the last one?
Nathan Yoder: I think there was just every single... It started with seven, eight and nine. It felt like they were trying to fix each other as they kept going on. And they weren't, if you watch, I watched all three movies back to back, I couldn't tell you what story they were trying to tell. They're kind of making it up as they go.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Nathan Yoder: And I think there's a beauty to some of that in filmmaking.
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Nathan Yoder: But I didn't feel like there was an overall plan and I enjoy seeing characters develop and seeing where stories go. I felt a little unsatisfied.
Aaron Mercer: Well, the reason I asked that question is, cause I actually wanted to turn it to Ben, too.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: There was some differences.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Aaron Mercer: In those last several movies, even narrative, even themes.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: As you were doing this work that you're doing, the soliciting articles and whatnot. Did you see that come out a lot, that people had a hard time? Did they have focus on one particular trilogy, so to speak or could they get common themes from all of them? Was there a disconnect? What do you see in all this?
Ben Espinoza: Sure. Well, first of all, I think nine was the worst. I think the Rise of Skywalker just, like you said, I really like what you said. They're trying to correct each other as it goes on. But I think the corrections of the Rise of Skywalker were just not very, very good. And I really do like JJ Abrams. I think he's done a lot of good stuff between Lost and I think the Star Trek movies were pretty good too.
Ben Espinoza: But yeah, nine, I just can't get behind it. But you said eight, too. So I'd love to talk about what you thought about eight. But it was interesting. So a lot of the authors did seem to focus on the diverse, different pieces of the nine or I think 10 or 11 movies, but then they also went to the other media, like the Clone Wars and Rebels..
Ben Espinoza: Sorry, yeah. I think Wars, Rebels, and then also Mandalorian, a little bit. So I made it so that the authors could respond to I think at least season one of Mandalorian. So since then we've had season two and then we've had the book of Boba Fett, too. So they've drawn on a diversity of Star Wars media, and even the opening chapter of the book written by a New Testament scholar named James McGrath, he talks about the idea of canon and even some of the expanded universe and legends and all that. And how that impacts what we think about theology in the Star Wars universe, actually.
Aaron Mercer: So why do we nerd out so much about canon? I'm curious.
Ben Espinoza: You know, it's interesting. So what's considered a real story, right? What's considered canonical and what's not. I think we want, even though it's all fiction, we still want some truth in that fiction, I guess you could say. And I could go on and on about the problems with the idea of a canon, but I think we want canon because we want things to be settled. And I do think that we want a set story when all you have... You have the fan fiction, right? We might not consider that canon, but it's stories and it's fiction and it's also valuable, as well. So that's probably outside this conversation.
Peter Englert: Well, no, no, no, no. I think this is really good. Cause we're talking about Star Wars. I'm guessing if you're watching, you're interested.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: So I'm going to nerd out theology-wise.
Ben Espinoza: Do it.
Peter Englert: So I can't believe I'm telling people this. When I was a student in seventh grade, I was part of a youth convention that did the Christian version of Star Wars and it was some way to learn. So I learned how to... Look at this. You didn't even know.
Aaron Mercer: No,
Peter Englert: I learned the proper way to do a light saber.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Peter Englert: But the debate was... So there's a certain camp of people that see Star Wars as a purely Christian, and we can debate who the real Christ figure is and all of that, and then there's other people that kind of say, "Yeah, there's elements of Christianity, but there's definitely elements of Hinduism. There's definitely elements of this." So where do you land and explain this is a mystical, it's obviously fiction.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Peter Englert: How do you land on something like that?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. So people often think of Star Wars as science fiction. I think Star Trek is science fiction, but I think that Star Wars is fantasy. So George Lucas is drawing on the westerns of his day, right? He's drawing on Hinduism, Confucianism, some different new age stuff, mysticism, as well as Christian as well. So I probably lean in the latter camp that there are elements of Christianity sprinkled throughout, but there's other elements as well.
Ben Espinoza: And it's interesting. So the idea of a Christ figure, we always want one Christ figure. Oh, it's like Luke, farm boy from Tatooine. Jesus was a farm boy from Bethlehem, right? It's not perfectly analogous, right? So people think of Luke as the Christ figure, but maybe Anakin Skywalker is the chosen one and then takes on this evil persona and then sacrifices himself, then overthrows the emperor, and everyone's saved as a result, right? So I lean more on the latter camp, but I think that's an interesting conversation to have. It's like, "Who's the Christ figure?" And I think you can make the argument for multiple people. So, there's lots of Christianity sprinkled throughout, but it's not a perfect analogy. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: So I want to know what the Christian way is to hold a light saber, first all.
Peter Englert: I didn't say there's a Christian version.
Aaron Mercer: Okay. Sorry.
Peter Englert: I believe it's up, down, side.
Ben Espinoza: Okay.
Peter Englert: Apparently that's the rhythm.
Ben Espinoza: I didn't even know that. So you probably have more Star Wars nerd in you than you want to admit.
Aaron Mercer: Do you happen to have any pictures of that.
Ben Espinoza: I know, I want to see these pictures, man.
Aaron Mercer: In the show now, it's in the show. So just to follow up on that Ben. So not on the light saber part.
Ben Espinoza: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: So, you were talking about how maybe there are elements that you can analyze within the different characters of Star Wars. Some of the heroes are some of the villains who become heroes.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: When I was looking over the table of contents of the book that you have coming out soon, it's looked actually like a lot of great articles in there. One that really caught my eye was this idea of, "Okay, what about the Jedi and the surprise of violence?" What do you do with a Luke's... If you were to try to jot analogy between Luke and Jesus, obviously they're very different, but if you're trying to teach something from that, what do you do with the fact that you have these warrior, I don't know if they're priests or what they are. But I'm curious. I know you didn't write that article, but I'm really curious what your thoughts are about that topic.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. That's a very good topic. I think that chapter has to do with the warrior monk. And then also I think there's another chapter on the non-violent Luke, sort of like the violent Luke who's pro being Jedi and everything. And then the Last Jedi takes this non-violent turn and ends up not fighting or anything. He has, spoilers for any one, he ends up having that holographic thing happen at the end with Ben Solo and everything. So honestly, it's a tricky issue. And I do struggle with it because on the one hand, you see Jesus, who's flipping up tables and everything. He's telling his disciples to go get a sword. Then he tells them that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.
Ben Espinoza: So there's a lot of tricky elements to that. And you have different theological traditions that'll say things differently like, Anabaptists will say that the way of Jesus is nonviolent. And then you have some other traditions that might say that war is justified, in some case, violence is justified in the case of defending the oppressed or in the case of self defense.
Ben Espinoza: So I'll just say it's a good topic in conversation to have, but when you look at Jesus, how he acted, how he approached things, the way he interacted with the powers that were at the time, I honestly think that you can have a good conversation about those things. And the topic of the podcast is why Star Wars can teach us theology. I think that it's a good conversation partner, because you start to think about, "Okay, is Luke Jesus, maybe not. He said this, he did this. Okay." But in that conversation, you're figuring out who Jesus really is. And I think that's the beauty of all of this.
Nathan Yoder: And I think to go on to that, these Jedi knights, we often think of them as like, "Oh, they're the good guys."
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Nathan Yoder: "They're awesome."
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Nathan Yoder: Realistically, they're more nefarious if anything.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: Because they're these people who literally send, I'm referring to the prequels, they sit in an ivory tower.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Nathan Yoder: They ally themselves with the Senate. I'm really going in there.
Ben Espinoza: Do it. Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: And they're just basically giving them, they're allowing the Senate to tell them what to do so they can keep their power.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Nathan Yoder: It even goes to the point of you hear Yoda doubting the prophecy of the chosen one. Is Anakin really the one who's going to bring balance to the Force?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: Who's this Jesus guy? They're even doubting that. And I think that's how theology can bring into it. It shows us parallels to our own life and how we can...
Ben Espinoza: Exactly.
Nathan Yoder: It's a lot easier to watch a movie and be like, "Oh, okay. I can see how that relates."
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: Whereas like the Bible, as awesome as it is for storytelling, we're just in our Western view, we're more attached to characters on a TV screen than text.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Absolutely. And it was interesting that you brought up the Pharisees. The Pharisees get a bad rap, but ultimately this was a group of people who were trying to protect their religious and ethnic identity, over against Roman colonizers, right? And Jesus comes along and says... He's probably closer to the Pharisees in terms of thought and practice than he isn't, but he's also condemning the hypocrisy they're in, right?
Ben Espinoza: But you're so right, though. And that's why I love the prequels because it gets in these power dynamics. When you go to the original trilogy, it's all individual hope and destiny, these kinds of things. But then the prequel really broadens it out. So we can debate Jar Jar, we can debate the acting, we can debate the CGI, but the power dynamics, the political dynamics, I think they can't be overshadowed. And that's the main contribution, I think, of the prequels and helps enrich storytelling, I think, throughout the whole franchise.
Peter Englert: So help me out. I actually had never thought about that. So I appreciate all of that.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter Englert: So let me use an example from another Netflix show. So, I love Cobra Kai.
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Peter Englert: And in the first Karate Kid, it was Daniel San is good. I'm blanking on the other guy's name. He's bad.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: And so I guess, is it because in the seventies and eighties we had this picture of good and evil and that's a beautiful picture throughout scripture, but now in the 2010s and the 2020s, there's this huge push to have a more dynamic understanding. Now, I guess my struggle with that is, on one hand it allows you to have grace for your enemies, but then on the other hand, are you diluting the story? And I think Star Wars did this better than Cobra Kai.
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Peter Englert: It's a little bit more human.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: But how do you manage that tension? And especially, it's not like George Lucas in 1970 whatever sat there and said, "You know what I'm going to do is I'm going to do these three." I don't know. How do you navigate that tension? The black and white, good versus evil, to the gray?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. You have a lot of black and white, dark versus evil, dark and light throughout scripture, but you also do have a lot of gray too. So you think about David, a man after God's own heart, in his relationship, and I would argue a violent relationship with Bathsheba, murdering Uria. So you have a lot of good guys that do bad things. Think about Solomon and I think everybody throughout scripture, except for Jesus Christ, obviously. So to me, I see a lot of gray in scripture. There's definitely the dark versus the light. And I think even in Star Wars, they complicate it, right? So the Jedi are the good guys, they're fighting for truth and justice throughout the galaxy, but they tell Anakin to leave his mom, which I don't think was a very Christian thing to do, right?
Ben Espinoza: I mean, you can make the argument because Jesus says he who wants to fall after me and needs to hate his mother and father, or leave his mother and father, that kind of thing. We can debate that. But I honestly think that that was the wrong choice and look what it led to. It led to something even worse too. So for me, there's elements of dark and light throughout scripture. And you even see even in the Book of First John, dark and light, that dynamic. But I think that it's good for us to be thinking about things in terms of gray and maybe things aren't as black and white as we thought that they were. And we see the impact of that kind of rigidity throughout history. This is one way of being versus this other, too.
Peter Englert: But is Anakin a Samuel figure?
Ben Espinoza: I never thought about that. I'd have to think about that a little more. Someone who's sort of good and then gets corrupted by a system that's forced him into this kind of thing, reacts against the system, and then ends up being the savior of his son and savior of really maybe the galaxy, right? So I have to think about that a little one more.
Aaron Mercer: So another piece I noted in the, or sorry, the table of contents.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: And then you have an introduction there. We got a little sneak peek to it.
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Aaron Mercer: There's so much good stuff in there I'd love to ask about. Can you expand a little bit, something that caught my attention was the master apprentice relationship.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Aaron Mercer: And you mentioned in your summary that it was a refreshing look at the spiritual formation.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: And I couldn't tell, was it written by someone who is a Muslim? So I'm really curious about that one. Can you tell us more about it?
Ben Espinoza: Yes. Yes. So it's interesting to me. So we were very intentional about trying to have a very broad and interreligious approach to things. Now, mind you, most of the authors and they're looking at it from a Christian perspective, a diversity of Christian perspective, but we really wanted to have a true diversity of religious perspectives, right? So that chapter looks at Muslim theology, the Quran and the master apprentice relationship in Star Wars and its analogies to different elements of the Muslim faith, too. So I'd encourage everyone to give that a look because when you read that, you're like, "There's a lot of similarities to Christianity here, master and apprentice, these kinds of things." So I'd love to say more about that, but you just have to buy the book.
Aaron Mercer: There you go.
Nathan Yoder: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: There you go.
Nathan Yoder: And one thing that George Lucas does, is he blends culture. Because you have the Jedi Knights who are, they're Knights who wield swords.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: Yet they wear robes and meditate like monks.
Ben Espinoza: Yes. That's right.
Nathan Yoder: And then The Mandalorian, you have a Samurai, who's also a cowboy.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly.
Nathan Yoder: Its this blend of culture and it really shows the creative process that they put into these kinds of stories.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. That's right. Yeah. I think it's absolutely brilliant.
Peter Englert: So, let's come back big picture.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: Cause again, we're looking at this and obviously the three, maybe even four of us, see spiritual value, specifically coming from a Christian perspective of engaging this theologically. And so, I guess, there's probably some people that are listening and watching and saying, "I don't even see it and maybe now I do."
Ben Espinoza: Sure.
Peter Englert: And it's almost like reading the Bible. It's like you saw what? And so I guess as you're talked to people that are huge Star Wars fans, but not huge theology fans.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: What are you challenging them to see and experience as they watch this?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. So a few different things. One, if I can just give a nod to the outline of the book, the first chunk deals with the theologies of the Jedi, right? It's sort of this warrior priest monk figure and what that means theologically. The second is sort of on a social justice liberationist kind of view, especially in the sequel trilogy because they definitely dip into those elements a lot more than the other ones.
Ben Espinoza: And then the third one is engaging classic thinkers, like Aquinas and Kamu and Augustine and these different pinnacles of Western thought, Western and Christian thought, too. But what I challenge people on is think about the Christ figures, right? You always want the perfect Christ figure and I've challenged people on this in different elements of popular culture, I would say, "Oh, so and so is the Christ figure in that show."
Ben Espinoza: And they're just like, "No, he's a sinful person. He did this, this and that. No way, he's the Christ figure." But you got to understand, someone who may be imperfect, but also is laying down his life for his friends and sacrificing himself, these kinds of things. So the obvious one is, obviously Luke sacrificed himself at the end of The Last Jedi. It's like, okay, but maybe Darth Vader might be a Christ figure as well, saving the galaxy by overthrowing the emperor, saving his son, there's redemption at the end. Maybe Leia might be the Christ figure because in, I think it's The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda says there is another, right? So I've been challenged to think about Leia maybe being sort of a Christ figure. But when you look at all those Christ figures, when you're looking throughout scripture, you see, well none of them hold a candle to Christ, right?
Ben Espinoza: So I challenge people to be thinking about that. But you got to understand, someone who may be imperfect, but also is laying down his life for his friends and sacrificing himself, these kinds of things. So the obvious one is, obviously Luke sacrificed himself at the end of The Last Jedi. It's like, okay, but maybe Darth Vader might be a Christ figure as well, saving the galaxy by overthrowing the emperor, saving his son, there's redemption at the end. Maybe Leia might be the Christ figure because in, I think it's The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda says there is another, right? So I've been challenged to think about Leia maybe being sort of a Christ figure. But when you look at all those Christ figures, when you're looking throughout scripture, you see, well none of them hold a candle to Christ, right?
Ben Espinoza: Even though a lot of us want to say, "Oh, human beings are created in the image of God and the earth is just a dead thing." Right? So there's the Christ figure. There's the Force thing. But then I also challenge people about this power dynamic, as well. And your comment about the Jedi serving as the Pharisee figures, as well. And challenging people to think about power in the church and the dynamic between the clergy and the laity and clergy who have way too much power and who are complicit in different kinds of oppressive political structures, too. Those are the ways I like to engage these kinds of things. So the Christ figures, the Force, but also the power dynamics in Star Wars and relating those power dynamic the dynamics in the church.
Aaron Mercer: So I'm interested. We are talking about these things and obviously, at least three of us are big Star Wars fans. I think that's three and a half. [crosstalk].
Nathan Yoder: He did Christian Star Wars.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah. He knows how to hold a light saber.
Aaron Mercer: Right. There's probably people listening, hopefully they're still listening to this podcast. Maybe we haven't lost them yet.
Nathan Yoder: Hopefully.
Aaron Mercer: Who are like, "Star Wars? What? I don't care about Star Wars."
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: And I'm not even sure we should be talking about Star Wars and Christianity and theology. You know, what do you say to those people? And I guess even maybe going a little further is, what is it about Star Wars that they should be paying attention to?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: I guess it could be for introspection for themselves, but also even how they're relating to other people around them in their community, what do you think?
Ben Espinoza: Definitely, definitely. So, what I like to point out to people, there's sort of layers to this, but a first thing I might say was, "Do you think Jesus was ignorant of popular culture in his day?" There was popular culture going on in the day. And I like to point out in chapter 17, Paul's sermon on Mars Hill, he's integrating figures and poets and thinkers from the culture of the day. He's being able to relate to this audience of intellectuals on Mars Hill using the language that they speak, right? And I would argue that Star Wars is very pervasive throughout the culture, right? You're seeing The Mandalorian, you're seeing Boba Fett making a comeback, people are rediscovering these stories generation after generation, after generation, right?
Ben Espinoza: Baby Yoda, exactly. That's right. That's right. So we, as Christians, I think need to be cognizant and aware of popular culture because these are the kinds of stories that people are imbibing. And I think that a lot of people do get their ideas about God, about the world, about purpose, about the role of humanity and its relationship to creation, from popular culture, right? These are the stories that people are taking in. Now, I don't think people are taking Star Wars literally or anything, but it's definitely informing you and shaping you in a certain way.
Ben Espinoza: So that's where, it's the engaging of popular culture that I think is helpful because so many people are partaking of it. I think we, as Christians, are called to help people think Christianly about things, to be Christian and to have good conversations. I think Star Wars is a good conversation partner, regardless theology. So that's what I would say to that. And there was another part of your question I forgot.
Aaron Mercer: I think that hit most of it.
Ben Espinoza: Okay, good. Good.
Aaron Mercer: That was good.
Peter Englert: What I want do right now, I actually want to ask Nathan.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: And then I want you to respond after Nathan goes. So Nathan, you're Gen Z.
Nathan Yoder: Sure.
Peter Englert: Or right?
Nathan Yoder: I'm 1997, so I'm on the border of Millennial and Gen Z.
Ben Espinoza: Okay. [crosstalk]
Nathan Yoder: So it depends how I'm feeling during the day.
Peter Englert: So you're young Millennial, Gen Z. Do you get frustrated by... Because you're really energized by this conversation and you know more about the theological dynamics than I do. Do you get frustrated by people saying discipleship and following Jesus needs to be this pure play, read the Bible and pray. Whereas it seems like you have a fairly, it's not just an interest, you have a fairly significant and robust connection. How do you wish people would see this as you're seeing it and engaging it?
Nathan Yoder: Right. Well, I think that's something that's been more new, I would say. Whereas when I was growing up is very much engage only in the Bible, do not explore those other kind of things, at least in the church setting. And I think it's important that I know, what pastor Rob has said multiple times, what you spend your time with, that's what you're being discipled by.
Nathan Yoder: So I personally enjoy Star Wars, but I also realize it's a made up world. That has a lot of cool parallels, but I don't use it as a replacement for the gospel or reading the Bible. And I think to your point of... I think it's important to keep an open mind from both sides of... This is a made up world, but there's a lot of value you can find in it, a lot of parallels. The other side is like, but if you're spending too much time in that and you're being discipled by that instead of going right to the gospel or the Bible, that's where you should be spending your time.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: How do you gauge that?
Ben Espinoza: I think that's a really good answer. I wouldn't really add anything to that. Like you say, what I like to say to people is, look, you're in church for an hour, right? And hopefully you're going to be reading your Bible and praying and doing small groups, these kinds of things throughout the week. But if you're not, you're doing a lot of other things. You're watching sports, you're watching cable news, and these kinds of things are informing you and shaping you in certain ways.
Ben Espinoza: So it's one thing to think about, "Okay, well, I am a Christian cause I believe these things," but in what ways are these other things habituating you toward? Are they causing you to be more and more like Christ? Or are they leading you away from Christ? Now, we can talk about whether or not Star Wars leads me to Christ or anything, but as a Christian, I get to think about these things, right? And it helps illuminate some of my understandings of redemption and humanity and hope and these kinds of things. So, I loved everything you said.
Aaron Mercer: I loved those answers too. I think there's also a connection that you can make. I'm going to step back for a minute and I can't remember if it was CS Lewis who said this or not.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. It's all good.
Aaron Mercer: Lewis Institute, don't get upset with me, if it's not right. But somebody, and I think it was Lewis, talked about how there can be more truth found in myth than sometimes... If you're reading the paper or whatever, something like that. And as you're studying myth, like a Star Wars myth, you mentioned fantasy, you can pull truths out of that.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: And maybe that makes you, as a Christian, I guess it could help you explore truths that, like you said, it's not a replacement for reading the Bible. And that's where the truth is, but maybe it could help you get a deeper appreciation for it. And for someone who is not a Christian or not yet, maybe it's a way to explore. At the end of the day, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Well, if myth helps you think about what might be true or not, I think that's the beauty of where your book is coming from.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Exactly. So think about Tolkien, right? Who doesn't love Lord of the Rings, right? Think about CS Lewis, right? These are good, like Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, these kinds of things. And then you get into Harry Potter and people are really skeptical. But Tolkien has wizards and stuff, too. And evil spells and all that, right? And I think Star Wars is in that camp of things, right?
Ben Espinoza: So I think as Christians, we need to be responsible consumers of culture, engaging culture with the heart of mind of Christ and ultimately using these things, not only for our own enjoyment, because I think there's something to be enjoyed about these stores. I think God wants us to have good things and enjoy these things, right? If God created us with the ability to create things, he had created us with the ability to enjoy these things, as well. And I think there's something inherently good in that, but it helps illuminate the way to Christ, as well. So I affirm all the lovely stuff you said.
Peter Englert: So I want to get a little controversial here because...
Ben Espinoza: Do it.
Aaron Mercer: Oh, who shot first? Oh, sorry.
Nathan Yoder: That's in the contract. We're not talking about that.
Peter Englert: Well, let's come back to that. [crosstalk] We need to come back to that.
Ben Espinoza: Oh gosh.
Peter Englert: So, when a pastor falls and if you read this book, there's a lot on clergy. So the pastor falls, there's a tweet that comes out that says for every moral failure that there's a pastor, there's a hundred...
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Peter Englert: That didn't do that and were faithful.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: But the reality is there's still pain and hurt.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Peter Englert: And so you brought up the power dynamics. You brought up the Nathan [crosstalk]
Ben Espinoza: That's right. That's right.
Peter Englert: And so you could, in one sense, look at that and say, that's almost a pulling from popular culture. We're talking a lot about power dynamics, right now.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Peter Englert: But on the other hand, there's a space in Christianity of how to deal with this. And I'm bringing that up because I think the problem with culture is we oversimplified.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Peter Englert: So how do you wrestle with this is a very real thing with power dynamics. There's good leaders. There's bad leaders. No, one's perfect.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: But how do you filter through the complexity of this situation? And maybe someday we'll have George Lucas on here.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. That'd be great. I'd love that.
Peter Englert: But like George Lucas is saying, I just wrote a story.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: And tried to. So how do you work through those complexities? Because it's not all wrong, not all right. But there are some legitimate perspectives and things.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. I'm curious. I want you to clarify a little bit of that. The complexities around what specifically?
Peter Englert: So, I never heard before, that the Jedi could be Pharisees.
Ben Espinoza: Oh, really? Okay. Yeah.
Peter Englert: Went right over my head.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: So here's spiritual leaders and the rest of the movies, Yoda is really great.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: And right now in our culture, we're talking a lot about power dynamics. And now if you're in power, it's a weird kind of struggle.
Ben Espinoza: Yes.
Peter Englert: So how much of it is taken from the world? I believe all truth is God's truth. So it's how do we engage that? But I don't know. I'm just processing with you, trying to...
Ben Espinoza: Sure. No, it's all good. It's all good. Yeah. So when I say Jedis might be analogous to Pharisees, I don't want to throw out all the Pharisees did or said, because, like I said, they're a sect of Judaism that was trying to protect its identity against Roman occupation. And Jesus' argument is he might be close to them theologically in terms of practice, he does say do everything that they say, but maybe not do everything they do kind of thing in Matthew chapter 23, right? So he critiques some of the hypocrisy, and the fact that they're adding on so much stuff to the law, when he's telling them to get back to scripture, which is their original intention. So when we talk about the Jedi as Pharisees or Sadducess, it's not that they're evil.
Ben Espinoza: We have to understand them in proper context. But I think as pastors, we need to be very mindful of those power dynamics, because you do have people in the church that, if the pastor said it, I'm going to believe it. You know? But at the same time you do have people who are extremely skeptical of the pastor. Which is why it's impossible to be a pastor, right? So it says in a First Timothy I think, the person who desires to be a pastor, desires good work.
Ben Espinoza: And there's all these different kinds of expectations that the pastor's going to have. And he even says, I think in James, those who desire to teach, they're going to be judged a lot harsher, as well. So we need to be mindful that what we say and what we do carries extra weight as leaders in the church. And we need to be above reproach. Like it says throughout the Epistles, as well. So all that to say, I'm very mindful of the power dynamics that are going on. I think pastors need to be aware of those and understand the influence that church leaders do have in the lives of other people. And for some people it might be an outside influence and some people, it might not be influence at all. So. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter Englert: Let me ask you through that.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: Is it disorienting to move from the first three Star Wars to the prequel? I'm probably not even saying that right.
Ben Espinoza: It's all good. Yeah.
Peter Englert: Or does it make the story beautiful? I don't know.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. I love to hear you all. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: Go, what do you think?
Nathan Yoder: If you're saying going from four, five, six, and the transition of what the government structure was of one, two and three, I think it shows it's a great tragedy. Pretty much like it's almost like the fall of the Roman empires. They were defeated from the inside, like Anakin was corrupted by the devil and it ended up being like he's not the chosen one or they don't think he is.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. That's right.
Nathan Yoder: But then he turns on them because he thinks he can control his future that ends up turning on him.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: And I think that world is a little more interesting and just seeing the drastic change of one, two and three has this thing where like, "Oh, we're all the good guys and everything." And then they even start to not see these subtle little things that are happening, especially with Anakin.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: And that's what totals the entire government transition to four, five, six, and then seven, eight, nine is just kind of 4, 5, 6 just reskinned.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. That's right.
Peter Englert: So are you saying it's not disorienting to you? It's actually much more of a reality to life.
Nathan Yoder: I think one, two, three is far more realistic cause four, five, six is very much like we're the good guys. Rebels versus evil people, where one, two, three is like, who are the evil people and who are good guys? And I find that a little more interesting.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. Definitely. Think about this though. Why did Anakin turn to the dark side?
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Ben Espinoza: I would argue it's because of love, because Palpetine says you could actually bring back those that you love by turning to the dark side. So yeah. We don't like the complexity of that, but ultimately, the reason he became Darth Vader was because of love, the love that he had for his mom and for his wife too.
Aaron Mercer: That's interesting.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: Yeah, no, yeah. I'm sure everyone has watched that.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Mercer: Who wants to watch that movies is watching right now, but his mother falls to the hands of the Tusken Raiders, which by the way, I'm really interested on why some of the new stuff is focusing so much on the Sand People. What do you think about that?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. What I would argue is that there's an awareness of the plight of indigenous peoples in the United States, right? So there's much more focus on colonization, violence, of how our nation came to be. And I think all of us are more aware of the role that. We're just more and more aware of indigenous communities throughout the nation, right? And wanting to actually highlight those stories as well and advocate for indigenous peoples throughout the nation. That's what I've read, the highlighting of the Tusken Raiders to be, is the stand in for indigenous peoples.
Aaron Mercer: Huh. That's really interesting.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. Yeah. I have to think about it a little more, but that's my take on it.
Peter Englert: Let's go a little lighter.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Ben Espinoza: There you go.
Peter Englert: So who shot first?
Ben Espinoza: Oh gosh. I told you, we're not talking about that.
Nathan Yoder: The answer is Han. Han shot first because, and the way it's supposed to be originally, is Han Solo is a bad guy who's only in it for himself. He's going to take the shot in order to do whatever job he needs to do. He's not a good person at heart. It's through the story you find out "Oh, I actually care for these people I'm trying to save."
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: I don't like the terrifying CGI of him doing that that George Lucas edited in 1997.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: Just to prove the point that "No, Han's actually a good guy."
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: It's also the thing of him going back and forth and fixing things.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. It was Han. I agree. Yeah. So we just said, I won't talk about it.
Aaron Mercer: Yeah, no, we can stop there if you want to.
Peter Englert: You don't have a contrary opinion?
Aaron Mercer: No. The original one, obviously.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: I think you go original on that one.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: So that's why it is interesting that you like the movies that came out during that period, the new ones, but you have a problem with the remastered one of the originals, too.
Ben Espinoza: Right.
Aaron Mercer: So, yeah. It's interesting.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: I think that gets to the interest in canon and what is truth and what's not, and I guess that's why I hit that question early on. Why is that so important to people in a world where we seem to wrestle with truth and who can you trust? And it's a story. It's Star Wars, but people really care about what is canon Star Wars? What is canon Marvel?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: And they're trying to work things into the canon by having a multi... Things like that. What is canon Star Trek? There's a lot of stuff. We care a lot about it, but why? And what does that mean for broader truth?
Ben Espinoza: And that multiverse stuff is fascinating. They were brilliant doing that. Yeah.
Peter Englert: I think you should respond to that, but can you define canon for those that...
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. Canon is this measuring stick, right? So sort of like within the scope of this, this is defined to what's been true and primary in authority on matters. So when we talk about the canon of scripture, we're talking about 66 books and our Catholic brothers and sisters have what's called the Apocrypha, which is considered canon in the Catholic faith, but isn't canon in the Protestant faith.
Ben Espinoza: So it's this rule for what we can follow in terms of life and practice, the authority of what's considered to be true and good and primary in informing our way of life. So that's how I would define canon and we could go into the philosophy and all that. And problemetize who gets to have voices in the canon and these kinds of things. What perspectives get put in the canon, obviously. Because you have a lot of people talking about, well, these certain books should have been thrown into the canon as well, but because Constantine had an agenda, then we only have 66, those kinds of things. But ultimately your rule of faith and life and what you consider to be authoritative and true. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: Whereas in Disney we, or I'm sorry, in Star Wars we're just, it's what Disney thought was canon.
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Yeah. So you have the legends or the expanded universe, all these good books and stories and different characters that are sort of like, "Okay, yeah, we're going to start over. This is what's considered true within the context of Star Wars." And they're even trying to bring in elements from the legends and the expanded universe as well.
Aaron Mercer: The pseudo [inaudible] of Star Wars.
Ben Espinoza: It's the pseudo [inaudible]. There you go. It's a good word.
Peter Englert: Well, but that goes back to Aaron's thought, which is why do people care so much about the truth because we live in a postmodern society, we live in a society that, if it's good for you, it's good. And so, but we have this entertainment fantasy that... People are legitimately debating. Did Han shoot first?
Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's because people, well, first of all, selfishly, I don't want to spend time reading all the stuff that's been written about Star Wars. I want to be told, "Okay. Yeah. This is the limit on the story of Star Wars." So they're trying to maintain control of the story and the characters and the universe and everything. And I think it's probably more of a business decision more than anything else, obviously. But I think for us, we do want to be told what's right and what's wrong. What's true. What's not? These kinds of things, even though it's all fiction.
Aaron Mercer: Right?
Nathan Yoder: Yeah.
Peter Englert: So we're about to near the end of the episode.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Peter Englert: Are there any other controversies we want to bring up?
Ben Espinoza: Oh man.
Aaron Mercer: I feel like I can go through the table of contents and there's all sorts of stuff.
Ben Espinoza: I like The Last Jedi. I liked it.
Aaron Mercer: So you guys need a debate, you and Nathan.
Nathan Yoder: When I first saw it in theaters, I was like, "What is this?? I was disoriented after seeing that.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, same. Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: But then I started to see like, "Oh, that's why they did certain things. I grew an appreciation for it.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: I still am more of like, I grew up with one, two, and three, so I [crosstalk]
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Yoder: But yeah, it's definitely grown on me.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. For me it was, I was disoriented because I really liked all of the fan theories. It's like, okay, ray might be related to Obi-Wan or something like that. That'd be really cool. Or what if Ray and Poe get together, that kind of thing. For me, what I liked about it is, is it took this really idealistic character, Luke Skywalker, really plucky, rebel, fight the power kind of guy, and then he's a grumpy old man now because his ideals haven't worked and he's just grumpy because of it, right? Tries to kill his nephew and everything. His nephew worships Darth Vader, these kinds of things.
Ben Espinoza: I like that perspective. I like that. Ray was a nobody. Cause we really wanted her to be somebody, but it's like, "Okay, maybe this Force thing, maybe fighting for truth and justice is going to be something that everybody can have." And at the end you have the little boy looking up and he takes the broom and he uses the Force to get the broom and everything. I like the democratization of the Force and of the Jedi and some of the ethos around that. And I didn't expect any of it. So in episode nine, I really didn't know what was going to happen until they just put a bunch of stuff together, which I disagreed with, right? So that's why I liked it.
Peter Englert: How much do you think the newer movies were impacted because the actress that played Princess Leia passed away?
Ben Espinoza: From what I understand, it was significantly impacted because before you had JJ Abrams coming to direct episode nine, you had Colin Trevorrow, I think, who directed Jurassic World, I think. And he had this amazing treatment and apparently it was leaked a little while ago. So there was all different kinds of things. And Princess Leia actually has a pretty significant role in all of that. I got to think that it was definitely impacted.
Aaron Mercer: So I know we need to move towards the end here, but I'm just going to ask this question.
Peter Englert: Go ahead.
Aaron Mercer: What do you think about the end? I guess here's where I'm coming from. I you need to respond to it. Both of you actually. Because I know you're, Nate, I know you're in the filmmaking world too, the production world. I don't know. I wrestle with whether I like it or not. I was wondering if at the end it would be the good evil battle and then they all go away and it cancels. With the question of why is the Force and the Jedi not around anymore?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: But instead it ended with not that, right? Kind of starts a whole new thing. So, I mean, what do you guys think about that?
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, I'll let you go first.
Nathan Yoder: Well, from a filmmaking perspective, I know there's... Movies are not art anymore. They are simply just how can we make the most money possible? And that's just how the business world works, nowadays.
Peter Englert: That's not cynical at all.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah, I know. Yeah.
Aaron Mercer: But would it have been more artistic the way I said it?
Nathan Yoder: Yeah. I think so.People hate George Lucas, but he's an artist at heart and I respect that. I don't think he's an amazing director, but he definitely has the artistic characterization of how he wants a story to go, start to finish, and wants to bring all these themes and philosophies and parallels of different religions, stuff like that. But I'll say the way nine ended, for me, it almost ruins Anakin Skywalkers redemption arc, because you have the emperor come back, even though he was prophesized to kill him and now he's back and they don't even explain why.
Ben Espinoza: Yeah. So I go back and forth because on the one hand, I think there's something very beautiful of Ray and then she sees Luke and Leia. She's going to take the name. She's no longer alone. She has this lineage that she wants to carry. There's something beautiful. But I like the idea of her being a nobody, that the Force is for everybody, that anybody can be a Jedi, those kinds of things, right?
Ben Espinoza: So I still can't get behind Episode Nine because literally, where does he come from? How does he get there? I know they're trying to fill in bits and pieces with different canonical things. But at the same time, I'm like, "Why does it need to happen?? Right. Ben solo was going to be Supreme leader and that was going to be a big fight between him and the nobody, ray. I just had the sole vision for how Episode Nine could go. And none of it came true. They just played to, I think, fan expectations and hopes.
Nathan Yoder: Yeah. And there's a lot of theology too. And the idea that Ray is a nobody, because God uses people who are nobody's all the time in the Bible. And I think there's something powerful about that. You don't have to have the lineage of someone being amazing. God can use anyone.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Nathan Yoder: And that was a nice parallel. And then.
Ben Espinoza: I know there was none of that, right?
Peter Englert: Man.
Aaron Mercer: Maybe there'll be another movie with the kid who's doing the bro thing.
Ben Espinoza: Maybe. Hopefully
Aaron Mercer: So Disney, if you're listening, there might be a market for that.
Peter Englert: And he's Obi-Wan.
Ben Espinoza: Man, that would be epic.
Peter Englert: Love it. On that note. Well, let's close with what does Jesus have to say about this? And usually I'm going to go first, because I probably have the least amount to say, which is the classic thing that pastors say.
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah.
Peter Englert: So here's what I'm going to say.
Aaron Mercer: Yeah.
Peter Englert: If you listen to this episode and you wonder why theology and Star Wars go together, take your timeline, rewind it all the way back and just re-listen because we talked about Jesus throughout this. That's all I got to say.
Aaron Mercer: You want me to go next? All right. So I love this conversation. Number one, cause I love Star Wars. But I also really think there's a power to it. Especially as we are trying to wrestle with questions that are important to our culture, important to people within our churches and to people within our communities who may not be in our churches yet. This shirt that I'm wearing that has the Alliance on it, people know what that is.
Ben Espinoza: That's right.
Aaron Mercer: And people connect with that. And that there is almost a, I don't want to say a spirituality, but there's something in them that connects to that and that's important. That's important to note and to engage, I think. I was thinking, as I was thinking about closing this up, I was thinking about how when Paul, St. Paul was in Athens, he went to the Areopagus and he talked with the Athenian thinkers who were having real conversations about spirituality and they had the Temple to the Unknown God. Anyhow, he used all that to connect with them about Christ and for Christians who may be listening to this and wondering, "Why should I care about Star Wars?" I think that's an important thing. I think we need to use what people care about in our culture to be able to talk to them about real truth. To introduce them to truth.
Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. Yeah. That's good.
Nathan Yoder: I personally don't think Jesus cares about Star Wars at all, but I do think but I do think he cares how we spend our time and our resources. So if we're pouring into something that we enjoy, it has to reflect him in some capacity. And I think we underestimate the power of storytelling. In the Bible, Jesus, how does he show examples? Through parables. There's stories.
Nathan Yoder: And I think if we look at Star Wars, there is also real life similarities of stories that we can see in the real world. And I think going back to what we said before, what 16 year old guy, or kid, really wants to read devotions or that thing, but probably likes Star Wars. Cause that was me. Cause I didn't really like reading the Bible, but then as I grow up, I could see some parallels and that gauged my interest to be like, "Oh, what does this mean?" And I would say it strengthened my faith as a Christian.
Ben Espinoza: No, that's good. I hold the position that popular culture, particularly Star Wars, really is a reflection of the kinds of questions we're asking. You know? So when I think of the movies, the shows, the music that's out there, it really reflects our priorities, what we think about our deepest hopes and dreams and fears, right?
Ben Espinoza: So to me, when you look at Star Wars, you're seeing a reflection of the stuff that we care about and think about a whole lot too. Which is questions of hope and destiny and what's right and what's good. How do we advocate for the oppressed? How do we advocate for justice? These kinds of things, right? And ultimately, I think those answers land with Christ. So just to riff on everything that you all say, cause it's brilliant.
Peter Englert: I think this was one of the most fun podcasts, just to sit back and watch you. So we joked, but maybe every May 4th, we're just going to have to have you on.
Ben Espinoza: We'll just have to evaluate all the Star Wars media and catch up on there. Season three, The Mandalorian. We'll see how that goes.
Peter Englert: For any debates, the email is Ben Espinoza at...
Ben Espinoza: That's right. Love it.
Peter Englert: Anyways, this is why Ben, the book comes out in June. We'll probably announce it. So just follow us on social media. Is there anywhere where people can follow you to keep up with this?
Ben Espinoza: I'm not really active on Twitter. I do have Instagram. So I might post something on Instagram as well. I think it's Ben.Espinoza35 or something like that. But the book will probably be cheaper. I think it's hard cover. It's like a hundred bucks or something and who knows what it'll be on the Kindle, but at times during the year it'll be cheaper. So it's worth the investment though, I think.
Peter Englert: Well, we'll find out a little bit more about that. We are Why God Why. You can find us best at whygodwhypodcast.com. Subscribe to our email to send you updates like this episode. And even if you made it this far in and you're not a Star Wars fan, why don't you just forward it to a Star Wars fan? There you go. Anyways. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope you have a wonderful day.