Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
Darren Kanthal
===
[00:00:00]
David Chung: [00:00:15] [00:00:30] Darren, thank you for joining us [00:00:45] today.
Darren: David.
David Chung: I'm, I'm really excited to, to talk with you, uh, and to learn more about you and your story. do you mind introducing us to your current business, your coaching business?
Darren: well, maybe I can combine a question. I bet you'll ask about maybe [00:01:00] history. A little bit I grew up in corporate human resources. I was there about 20 ish years. Not quite. Maybe it was like 19. And, uh, part of my Achilles heel or my reputation, quite frankly, was that I didn't particularly [00:01:15] play nice in the corporate sandboxes. I'm from New York and. If anyone's listening that is also from New York or knows a New Yorker, right? We can be brash. We're direct. We're loud. We're animated. We curse and at my [00:01:30] worst, those traits and behaviors were not always well appreciated in corporate America. When I left corporate back in 2018, I started the Canthal group. We focus on providing executive coaching. My partner, Rachel focuses on [00:01:45] coaching female execs. Her background is rooted in functional nutrition and she is exceptional, unrivaled in my opinion at getting to root cause, whether it's the science of the body, executive leadership, [00:02:00] home, like a lot of her clients talk about their marriage, their parenthood, et cetera.
And I focus is primarily on coaching portfolio company executives, typically after an active [00:02:15] acquisition with a private equity firm. And what often happens is the executives at the, those portfolio companies used to be the founders or the top dogs. And now they work for a new top dog. And a lot of times there's some [00:02:30] discontent or disagreement or all sorts of different things. So very simply, we provide executive coaching to leaders, a lot of executive coaches do. our specialty is Rachel with ladies, me with the portfolio companies.
David Chung: So now you've been coaching [00:02:45] for, since 2018. How did you transition into, from HR into executive coaching?
Darren: man. All right. So I like telling this story because it's very near and dear to me because it's my story, right? Beginning of 2018, I was working at my last corporate [00:03:00] gig. I won't use names, but I was working for a woman who was amazing. She's still a friend of mine today, a great leader. She had been at the company for so many years, 10 or 15 years.
Her blueprint was everywhere in this organization. Pretty [00:03:15] cliche. New leadership came in. She and they did not see eye to eye. She exits. And in comes what I would describe as the worst leader I ever worked for. All of my poor behavior, all the things I [00:03:30] had worked on up until 18, like they came screaming out again. I just couldn't get along with this woman. I hired my first coach. name is Chrissy. She's exceptional. And I remember at some point in the coaching, I remember saying [00:03:45] to her, I need to figure out how to play nicer in these corporate sandboxes. And her words were, maybe you should change the sandbox. And I never really thought about changing the sandbox. So it was kind of like this mind -blown or mind -blowing experience [00:04:00] for me.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: said those words, the ball started rolling or the, or the snowball started going downhill. I started researching what other sandboxes could be.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: a seed.
Have you ever thought about being a coach? My partner, Rachel, [00:04:15] who's also my girlfriend, been together nine years. She said, what about being a coach? there were two or three other people that also suggested it. And the more I researched it, the more I understood about the function, uh, this one -on [00:04:30] -one opportunity plus in groups, I,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: learned after the fact around 2020, I realized that.
Really? What's important to me is to be involved in the conversation. I have a deep sense of FOMO, [00:04:45] but when I'm involved in the conversation, there is no FOMO. I'm part of the gig, right? So all of this, and I'm oversimplifying, of course, but there is a very deep, innate or intrinsic connection I have to the coaching function.
David Chung: [00:05:00] Mm-hmm.
Darren: Also tied to that is the trust clients place in me. I've literally had, you know, not in droves, but a few clients have said to me that they tell me things they tell basically nobody else. Not even their spouse sometimes. [00:05:15] I mean, that's a hell of a responsibility. And the fact that they trust me well enough for that.
It's like, it gives me chills. I, you know, I know where I come from, right from college and the young Darren and all these things. And, you know, my clients trust me that much. And so I take that seriously.
David Chung: [00:05:30] when you're coaching somebody, you, you're really trying to get in there and dive. Sometimes you gotta really dive deep into who they are so that you can help them to become a better leader. And sometimes you gotta do a little bit of. You know, [00:05:45] mental gymnastics with them and they're, they're only gonna be willing to open up and to do that if they do trust you.
And so that the fact that you can do that so well with them is speaks volumes about, about who you are and the way you connect [00:06:00] with your, with your leaders and your clients.
So when you transitioned to coaching, you got into it because there are people in your life who are speaking to you about it.
And actually, that, that's probably one of the, the main ways most people get into coaching. Either they've been [00:06:15] coached and the coach says, this might be good, something good for you. Or there's other people in their lives that just start talking about coaching.
So when you started coaching, where did you start? Like. Did you start with reading a book or did you [00:06:30] start by talking to, to the coach who was coaching you?
Darren: someone recommended a book to me and I think it was The Coaching Habit. I think that's what it was. And [00:06:45] I was reading the book and I was a leader at the time in corporate America and the book suggested two questions to ask your direct reports. And I still use these questions today, by the way, there were tremendous. The first question was what is on your mind? I never [00:07:00] heard of that question necessarily. May I hear it now? And it's, it's rather commonplace in my world of coaching, but to ask a direct report in a one -on -one, Hey David, what's on your mind? First time I asked it, I expected something that was going to be work related and it wasn't. It [00:07:15] was something my direct report was dealing with personally. And I was like, Whoa. And then the second question it suggested was what else? Which any coach knows is the most popular coaching question, right? So what's on your mind? What else? [00:07:30] So well, I was like, boom, this book is on to something. Coaching is on to something. Uh, so that like started, started my brain thinking about this coach as a leader aspect. Now,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: remember any other books. I may have read. I'm sure I [00:07:45] read some.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: once I made the decision. That okay, I want to be a coach. My next steps were researching what I thought were the most popular coaching programs. I
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: with [00:08:00] some of the schools, if you will. I spoke to people that went through those schools. And then ultimately I, I chose CTI, the Coactive Training Institute. And I'm glad I did.
I think it was a tremendous program. I have friends from my cohort. [00:08:15] Uh, the tools are amazing. So I, I, I, I'm a big proponent of that program and it was really good.
David Chung: so through your program you did the certification, they taught you how to coach. So I assume that through CTI, they had you do some, peer or practice coaching [00:08:30] with clients. Is that correct? , How, how was your experience when you started to actually coach someone outside of your business role?
Darren: so I started CTI in January. In February, I put a post on [00:08:45] Nextdoor,
David Chung: Okay.
Darren: uh, you know, it's like a community website in the United States.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: Um, like crowdsourcing, right? Like people say, I lost my dog or stop shooting off fireworks on 4th of July. My dog's in the bathroom,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: this other crazy [00:09:00] stuff, right? I put a
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: there and said, I'm a, I'm a career coach.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: client, my very first
David Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Darren: a little bit of a sidebar. I remember being really nervous. And I remember talking to Chrissy about it. I was still working with her at the time. And she
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: me tell you, let me tell you the deepest [00:09:15] secret. Your best job is just to listen.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: many people do not have an avenue where the spotlight is on them. listens to them without telling them they're wrong or giving them all advice. Like, [00:09:30] just listen. And I was like, okay, great. The second piece of advice came from me telling Chrissy, my brain wanders. It still does
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: It wanders. I start thinking about all these things.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: said, every time your brain wanders, [00:09:45] Do a tick mark on a piece of paper. So I had a pad and I was taking notes, right? So what is it like
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: carats and then the diagonal line, like those tick marks, I don't remember the exact number, but I remember it was in the high teens.
My brain wandered 18 times, let's [00:10:00] say in 60
It was eye opening, right?
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: first client came from next door. I think I did a good job. I felt like I
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: based upon where I was in my training. I learned
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I have to stay focused because my brain
David Chung: [00:10:15] Yeah.
Darren: lot of tricks and tools that I use for that. Uh, the tick marks was eye opening.
David Chung: so as you're, you're working through and you're coaching, how did you feel like your, your training at CTI helped you? To work with your clients? Like what were, was [00:10:30] there any like, specific tool or framework that, that comes to mind when you were working with your clients that like, that you were able to kind of ground yourself into when, when you were doing your work?
Darren: I don't remember the exact statement, [00:10:45] but
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: in CTIs, Um, program when I went through at the time and I think it's pretty much the same today is the very first class is fundamentals and it's exactly that's the fundamentals of coaching and one of the [00:11:00] instructors said something like, many of us are trained to or think that our role is to give people advice or tell them what we think.
And
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: statement was something like, of that as [00:11:15] a coach, your job is to do none of that. And of course, like, you know, looking around the room, know, it was a dramatic movie. Everybody's like, what do you mean? Right? But the very first thing was the basics of coaching. Ask questions. Be curious.
As I [00:11:30] started to get a little more proficient in this training. It was more of a lot of, well, me and also some of my cohort, but me, especially because I live in my brain, right? I was
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I wouldn't know the right question to [00:11:45] ask, or I wouldn't know where to go next. And so through the training, the master coaches would say, okay, David, where, where should we go next?
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: of like letting go of, of thinking I need all the answers or knowing exactly what to do [00:12:00] and being okay saying, I don't know where to go. Where do you think? Which
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: also led to part of the coaching, but also part of leadership that I coach my clients on, which is you don't need all the answers.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: asks you what you [00:12:15] think, well, hey, what do you think first? And
It's not a rude thing. Some people find it like, Whoa, they asked me what I think. No, Hey,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you what I think. What do you think first? And that's
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: spiel. Like when I meet new clients, I always tell them, listen, I'm not a purist of coaching.
I'm not just going to ask you a million questions [00:12:30] and never tell you what I think. And this is what I say verbatim. If you ask me what I think I will tell you, but I will usually start by saying, what do you think first? That's
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: little bit of a long winded part of I always, uh, will ask people what they [00:12:45] think I've kind of relinquished.
I have to be all knowing.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I think those are some of the tools that I've been using mostly.
David Chung: Yeah, and I think that's probably one of a hard thing for people at the beginning of coaching as they start that journey to let go of is like, your [00:13:00] job isn't to come and give them lots of advice. Your job is help to help them sometimes just realize the truth that they already know, that they just haven't been able to sit down and reflect on and get like.
[00:13:15] For themselves.
Darren: I always tell people if you want advice, hire a consultant.
David Chung: As a coach over the years, so from 20 18, 20 19 till now, you've had a number of clients, right? And often the coaches I speak to, there's. There's a handful of [00:13:30] stories that they have of some of the transformation that's gone on in their coaching that they, with their leaders.
Do you mind sharing a story? Not no names, no specific names, right? But is there anybody in mind where, that you think of and [00:13:45] transformed from the work that you guys did together?
Darren: Well, all of my clients, David. Ha ha. Um, yes, there is one in particular we've been working together for, say it's three years. I don't know the exact timeframe, but it's been a while.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: has been three years.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: [00:14:00] Uh, he is a chief at his company and I'm just making that face as funny because we came together under something that a lot of coaches don't like to coach to.
And it was remedial. The The [00:14:15] coachee, the chief,
An incident, had a situation where his anger played out in a way that resulted in an investigation that couldn't substantiate, but it [00:14:30] was also substantiated enough that it was a problem. It being, His behavior, the way he spoke to people, his tone, it was all rooted in anger, and I only know this because we worked together, right? Um, so over these three years, the transformation that's happened is [00:14:45] we've uncovered the source of the anger. We've utilized a number of different tools, techniques, tips and tricks of how to recognize when the anger is boiling within him,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: mitigate some of that stuff, coping mechanisms. And we've used a number of different tools, techniques, techniques, tips and tricks of how to recognize when the anger is boiling within him, how to mitigate some of that stuff, coping mechanisms.
Uh, [00:15:00] ways to deescalate,
He's had some epiphanies that have come from like, and I'm going to curse here. He's like, I think he said to me at some point, I can't believe I almost fucked up my dream job. He came to that grew
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: perspective [00:15:15] questions, introspection. All the
David Chung: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren: Um, he has different conversations with his spouse and his Children. Recognizes that when he comes home, there are some days where the kids are crazy and he loves it. [00:15:30] there's other days where he doesn't. But he also
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: their kids and all they're going to remember is dad is always angry unless he can.
Speak differently, act differently, cope differently. So,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: transformation has been holistic. And we
David Chung: [00:15:45] Yeah.
Darren: the same techniques. And it's not like it's like, you know, We're talking about the same techniques. is, how are we using these techniques? How are they working today? What hasn't worked today?
Literal and figurative. Hopefully I answered that well. I mean, it's such a deep transformation [00:16:00] for him. it's a
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: It really is.
David Chung: I think, and those are, I think, some of the best stories because you, you come in to help somebody with. A problem that's occurring in the business. But [00:16:15] this is a common theme that's coming through all of the, the conversations I'm having is people are people in a business and outside of the business, the problems that they have inside of the business all, all often translate into their life outside.[00:16:30]
And so when they start making that change inside the business. It's holistic. It changes them from the business and in their personal life, and I think that's where it's
Darren: I feel like, I don't want to make people feel
David Chung: like, yes, great, let's work on the business. Let's make [00:16:45] the business work better. But being able to transform and be a part of somebody's life
Darren: for watching
David Chung: you, you change them and
Darren: joining us
David Chung: their life, their family.
I think that is, that's beautiful because I think a lot of people who get into coaching, they [00:17:00] get it, get into it because they have, they feel that there's a purpose in that and that's to help people and it's.
Darren: Morning.
David Chung: you're not just helping them in their business but with their family. And that's, you know, that quite frankly could
Darren: Everybody
David Chung: [00:17:15] that family from like, something, like, something like anger issues, impacts the kids as they grow up to become adults.
Darren: identifi a
David Chung: But that could also end up like, where families will become, like, will, you know, just shatter and break apart too. [00:17:30] So not to like over. To go overboard with it, but the work that you've done could have like, kept that marriage together and helped those kids, and their future, because now their father is more health, mentally healthy, and able to [00:17:45] understand and control themselves.
So that's, that's fantastic. I mean,
Darren: Yeah. If I can just comment on that real quick is,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: already said it, I'm just going to say it in my own words. I'm
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: going to be 50 this year and I only share that as a timestamp because earlier in [00:18:00] my career, there really was a sentiment of quote unquote, check your emotions at the door. And it seemed like a lot of people embrace that.
As I said, I have FOMO and one of the reasons I love being a coach is I'm in all the conversations, right? say
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: is, If we're partnered together, right, I'm going [00:18:15] to apply the coaching skill set the way I do. I have certain
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: ways that I show up, ways that I coach to in a sense, right? And
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: ways is about speaking up. of the point is what I say to my clients is you are [00:18:30] a holistic being. just looking at you, David, and I know just a little bit about you, right? You're a son, and we're all sons and daughters, right? You're a son, you're a father, you're
David Chung: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren: You're an entrepreneur, you're a tech expert, right? So right there, without [00:18:45] knowing you all that well, you play at least five roles every single day.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: of those roles is out of whack, I'm willing to bet it's going to affect all of them and when I tell stories to my clients, what I say is I don't know about you, Rachel and I are having [00:19:00] a fight, even though you
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: know we've had a fight because I'm still showing up as me, my brain is processing,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: some effect or impact when life is out of harmony. Now, listen, life is not always in harmony. Let's not get. You [00:19:15] know, let's not be extreme in the same
David Chung: Yeah,
Darren: Not toxic positivity here, but in the
David Chung: yeah,
Darren: when things are really out of whack, it affects everything. So, quote unquote, checking
David Chung: yeah,
Darren: the door is absurd.
David Chung: I mean, as much as we try to compartmentalize every [00:19:30] life impacts and seeps into every facet of life. Right. So I mean, as you were saying, like when you first was, were asking and like, what are you thinking about to your direct report? They're talking about their life, on the [00:19:45] flip side of talking about one of the lives of transformation, right? I'm sure you've had difficult situations to deal with as well with your clients. How have you handled some of the difficult situations with clients?
Darren: I'm just [00:20:00] laughing because I remember through the training with CTI at some point it came up about, quote unquote, firing a client and actually a pretty cool milestone.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: I've had some coach friends who are, you know, newer to the [00:20:15] industry and some that are longer in the industry. And there is
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: there is an element of celebration, like, Oh my God, David, you fired your first client.
Nice job. Way to hit that milestone. And that, when you ask the question, that's what, what's opening up to me. I, I, last client I fired might've [00:20:30] been the first one. But I don't remember that to be absolutely true. And I, we just, we couldn't get it together in the sense that wasn't hearing. I don't want to say my message because it makes me sound like I'm an advice giver, but in the same token, she wasn't resonating with my [00:20:45] coaching.
I was having a hard time resonating with her lack, I'll rephrase, with my perception of her lack of action. I wasn't able to get. Deep enough weather to understand what was going on. And, and unfortunately I got a little adversarial. I hate to say it, but that is the [00:21:00] truth. And, uh, so what did I do with it? I spoke to my trusted confidants and asked questions about, have you experienced this, any ideas for me? How do I approach this? I've tried this. I've tried that. I had my own coach coach me on it. And some of [00:21:15] the coaching was really great. Like I remember walking away from some of those coaching sessions and feeling like, oh yeah, this was great. I have the new idea. Ultimately we just weren't the right partnership. It was Chrissy, yet again, had helped me, something she had said about the way to exit is to say [00:21:30] something like, I feel like we've come to a natural conclusion and I think it's time for us to part ways. And it was something, maybe that wasn't verbatim, but it was something with that tone that felt
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: to say. And, uh, you know, the client at the [00:21:45] time agreed. And
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: amicable split. And to be honest, I don't think we've ever spoken since primarily.
David Chung: I, I think that highlights like in a very important truth and something that people need to also come to realize is that you don't [00:22:00] need to work with or fix. Like you don't need to be per like the perfect coach for everybody, and it's okay not to be, I think it's a fact of life As much as we want to be able to get along with everybody, there are just personalities you [00:22:15] just don't connect with and that's okay.
And I think coaches should realize that and instead of, bearing through it and trying to, to make it work, just. Do the good that you can do. And if you're not the person to do that, [00:22:30] just say, we tried. That's fine. And let's try to get you connected with another coach who, who can work with you, who can, who can speak with you in, in the way you need.
it's hard for some people to, to be able to do that too, because. There's again, a certain level of maybe [00:22:45] pride or, or feeling of like, I can do it all so that it might be harder for other people. But I think that's also something, something important for coaches to realize.
You don't need to be able to, to work with everybody. What are the other thing [00:23:00] that we, you hit on there was you spoke to trusted confidants when you were having a hard time. Are those people also coaches that you were speaking to?
Darren: Yes.
David Chung: So that's also like something that, that's very interesting to me because [00:23:15] before I started doing these, conversations with coaches, I didn't realize that a lot of coaches, uh, I don't know why I didn't realize this, but. A lot of the coaches who, who are coaching, they have other coaches to talk to when they have [00:23:30] hard times.
And I think it's, it's really important. are you doing this as like a, is it more of an informal thing or is it like a, like you guys have a group or how does that work for you?
Darren: For me personally, it is all right. My partner, Rachel is a [00:23:45] coach, right? So I go
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: and I have a sounding board right there, right? Trusted confidant. There are three coaches that immediately come in my brain who
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: we straddle the fence of friendship [00:24:00] and professional acquaintances.
The people that I lean on. Sometimes it is David. I need you to coach me on this. Like I'm having a really hard time. Can, can you give me 20 minutes, whatever? And the three people I'm speaking of, cause Rachel and I don't coach each other so well. [00:24:15] Uh, but my, the other three people, they will do it for me and
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: Now
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: a little further and farther between, in the same token is any time I rely on these three, like they are there for me. And[00:24:30]
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: versa. it's, it's as simple as like, how would you handle this situation? I got this, you know, weird request or, you know, someone's stretching my fee structure or kind of what I was saying earlier about like, [00:24:45] I don't know how to get through to this client.
Like, what do I do? Help me think about other techniques. I mean, you
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: today about techniques from CTI and I use some very basic ones, right? Like CTI has one module that's called [00:25:00] process, which is about processing emotion. And one of the three I'm talking about is exceptional in that space.
And
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: one that I forget what it's called, but it was more about perspective that I think I'm a little better in myself. So I [00:25:15] lean there. These are other tools and techniques and methodologies. So
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: winded way to say is I have, you know, four people that I rely on and,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you know, I can tap them at any time and they, they'll typically give me the time of day.
David Chung: Yeah. And I [00:25:30] think that's great. There, there's a lot of a multitude of things that we're going through and having somebody to, to be a sounding board and to help, uh, you through, or help you to process, like coaches need coaches too, right?
Darren: Yes.
David Chung: Transitioning the conversation a little bit [00:25:45] more towards the business side of things.
What's, what's been something that's been really rewarding for you, uh, as you've been able to run your own business, your own coaching company?
Darren: I think I was telling you earlier, I, I don't fancy myself a great corporate employee. And one of,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: [00:26:00] there's a number of reasons for that. One is it's a lot of politics and drives me nuts. two is that, quite frankly, I see poor leadership. Poor leaders seem to promote up and
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: the question, like how and why?
And usually the how [00:26:15] and why is because they're good politicians, not so good at performing in my opinion. Right.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: am I going with this? As an entrepreneur, I'm the ultimate decision maker and
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: -respecting New Yorker, that's important for me. Um, so [00:26:30] that's very rewarding is
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I was saying earlier, I have FOMO, I
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: decisions are made because I'm part of them. That's important for me. So being part of a decision is really important for Two is I celebrate all the wins.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: make money, [00:26:45] if we make
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I'm not splitting it with the corporation,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: right? I'm
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: amongst my folks. So, you know, there's, there's a feel good about how revenue is shared, you know, how we're putting money back out into the [00:27:00] universe, so to speak.
I would, you know, those, those two things for me really
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: part of all of the decisions and knowing
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you know, and the other thing I didn't say to is, okay, yes, we celebrate the wins or I get to celebrate the win because I'm part of them, but there's
David Chung: [00:27:15] Yeah.
Darren: yeah, I'll say morning of the losses.
Right. Entrepreneurship is the pro of those wins, but the con of like, how do you get more money? Where do you get your clients
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: There's not a stable
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you [00:27:30] get repeatable and consistent leads. know, it's,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: it's a double -sided coin.
David Chung: Yeah. And I think so what, when I, when I talk to coaches, especially people who, are starting out, there's this kind of belief of [00:27:45] I'm a coach. The clients will just kind of come and, and you've been in, in it long enough that you realize, no, that's not the truth you have there. There are things that you need to do to get clients to come.
But when you were starting out, uh, [00:28:00] what were some of the things that you did to start to get, like your first clients in the door?
Darren: [00:28:15] [00:28:30] Right, so I'm a former human resources guy, and I spent a lot of
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: So I, I
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: about the job search process because
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: of that. The 1st, you know, flag in the ground. I put is as [00:28:45] a career coach. I help job seekers and remember some of my. I forgot, I don't know the word to say it, but they were like almost saying like, well, you're a former HR guy.
Of course, it's super easy for you to be a career coach. And they were [00:29:00] right to a degree. I mean, there was some linear ality to it, if that's even a word. but it wasn't that easy to get clients. It was as easy to say, like, this is a niche, so to speak. Uh, so the first client came from next door, as I mentioned, in [00:29:15] March of 2019, I
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: to a networking group of job seekers.
Learn English for free www .engvid .com The
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: hosted that networking group just so happened to provide amongst other things career coaching and
David Chung: Okay.
Darren: they asked me if I wanted to be [00:29:30] a contract coach for them which I did. So really in relatively short order I had the formation of a niche with job seekers. And then I had, agency doing all the BD and
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: the coach. [00:29:45] So I got a lot of practice real early and that turned out to be, a really nice ramp for me. It gave me income when I wasn't having a lot of it. It gave me hours that got me closer to my certification. got me
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: That was a big win early. Did a bunch of [00:30:00] speaking. Free. So refining message, getting comfortable speaking in front of an audience.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: think that really moved the needle in terms of revenue and client acquisition? unfortunately not for me. It didn't.
Got some certifications [00:30:15] along the way in some behavioral assessments that, you know, gave me a little more to offer
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: Um, what I would say. Know, if folks listening are considering entrepreneurship is there wasn't [00:30:30] one thing for me, there was a lot of little things with some
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: things like being a contract coach where they did have a sales engine and they did have lots of business. I was busy, but maybe the cons of that is I didn't quite figure [00:30:45] out how to do my own BD to the extent where maybe I have contract coaches at some point, right?
David Chung: So that I, I, I think what I see there that I'm kind of taking away is, getting out there to create visibility for yourself. So speaking [00:31:00] engagements. So even finding that speaking engagement with the, career coaching company, uh, that was an opportunity. Opportunities kind of come in all shapes and sizes, but you have to be able to, or willing to [00:31:15] kind of get in front of people to start.
And get that ball rolling. And some, some things, some opportunities work, some, some don't. But that's also part of the, a business is not everything is gonna work out the way you [00:31:30] hope, but sometimes when it does work out, it does work out better than you expected to. You know, in, in your business as you're, as you're managing and running your business, uh, as an entrepreneur.
As a business owner, [00:31:45] very often you have to wear all of these different hats, right? You are, especially at the beginning, you're, you're the CEO, you're doing the marketing, you're doing sales, you're doing accounting, and you're still doing service delivery. How have you, [00:32:00] how have you managed that, um, in the beginning and how do you manage that now?
Darren: Yes, I'm just laughing because I remember when I first became an entrepreneur, you know, I came out of corporate America, right? so part of my identity was I work for [00:32:15] this company. I was also in recruiting, so there's a lot of outbound. Hey David, I work for XYZ company. We have a job. Are you interested? And if you said no, maybe I was annoyed at times, but it [00:32:30] never took it personal.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: representing XYZ company. The biggest hurdle out of the gates. I am selling me and if you say no, you are saying no to me, which [00:32:45] has an element of dating to it. So like there's some parallel to am I attractive enough?
Am I desirable enough? Like why? Why don't you like me?
David Chung: Yeah,
Darren: you want to hire me?
David Chung: yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Darren: big hurdle. So that gets [00:33:00] into messaging and having thicker skin and trying to take things personal. You know, more
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: when I first started, I had one business credit card. And
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: went on it. And
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: I'm a great accountant. [00:33:15] And at the end of the year, I went through all those expenses and I coded them and I gave them my CPA. Having a CPA was important because I didn't want to screw up my taxes. Yeah, then I got to a certain level where doing that credit card reconciliation got to be a little cumbersome [00:33:30] and
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: a bookkeeper and now the bookkeeper does the books still to this day and then they give it to
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: and that's lovely.
When I first started, I, I asked friends who were good at a variety of things that they'd be willing to help [00:33:45] whether it was for free or reduced fee and many of them did. So website. Writing, having some idea of brand. Like I was like, what is brand? I already have colors, but it was a lot more to it, right? [00:34:00] Um, there were certain vendors for messaging. Like I remember
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: vendor did a bunch of SEO stuff.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: vendor tried doing a LinkedIn messaging campaign. So [00:34:15] there's a lot of these, and I'm, I could be frugal. so I'll go hunting. And, uh, and I'm also not afraid to ask if you'd be willing to reduce your fee. So
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: all those things. Um, but I will say one of the [00:34:30] most interesting, interesting things about being an entrepreneur is in very short order, it shines the brightest spotlight on your weaknesses.
What I've seen is the people that try to fight it are the ones that[00:34:45]
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: and they get really sucked into, well, I'm not good at, I'll just say accounting, I'm not good at accounting.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: I need to try to be better, and I gotta figure out these books, and they go so deep down the rabbit hole, which I don't think is the greatest use of time,
David Chung: [00:35:00] Mm-hmm.
Darren: back up a little bit, Can you find
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: it? Sorry, last thing I'll say here is there's, there's, um, Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy are two authors that pair up quite a bit and they have a [00:35:15] book, but also a philosophy, which is who, how, right?
Who is going to do this thing? Not how am I going to do this thing? And that that's been real, um, not necessarily transformational, [00:35:30] but it's real foundational for me these days. Yeah.
David Chung: Yeah, I think that's, that's. That's really good because you know, at the beginning you need to try to, I think to a certain extent you should know how to do each part of the thing in the business, but when you're trying to run a business, [00:35:45] you cannot do everything and you got, it's better for you for, from a, especially from a time management point of view, to hand that off to somebody who one day they excel at that thing, but probably enjoy it a lot better than you do.[00:36:00]
So. I, I definitely, when it comes to accounting, I would rather, you know, find an alligator than handle the books. So as you're running your business, especially in this day and age, right, with AI and all of these different [00:36:15] technology and tools, are there any systems or tools that you're using, uh, today that helps you in your, your coaching business?
Darren: I gotta tell you, man, I'm a, I'm a, I'm pretty basic on the technology front. I'm not using a CRM. I [00:36:30] use Outlook to my benefit. I
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: taught a system in Outlook that uses a tasks that quite frankly works really well for me.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: works as well as I, you know. So the CRM is not prompting me, [00:36:45] you know, like I haven't set a rule that says every six
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: me these names or whatever CRMs do. So I gotta be honest. No, there's not a lot of, I may use QuickBooks to
David Chung: Okay. Yeah.
Darren: and, you know, accept payment. It says, you
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: with their [00:37:00] fees is everybody else that takes it, you know, 3 percent or whatever it is. No, I don't, I don't use a lot of technology beyond the basics. looking back at your coaching career so far, if you could have done anything differently, what's one thing that you would've done [00:37:15] differently if you could speak to yourself?
Know, in retrospect, know very well why I didn't choose a niche for executives. We coach and in retrospect, I wish I would have just chose one,
You know, [00:37:30] as we've had some of our conversations, David and, you know, across my business travels amongst many entrepreneurs I speak to, depending on.
What they do if there's a lack of a natural niche, a lot of us struggle with choosing one, [00:37:45] you know, part of it is the scarcity mindset. If I'm too specialized, I'm not going to get any business. So I got to cast this wider net. And I think
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: in the thought is yes, the wider net may catch a bunch of stuff.
But as a catch in
David Chung: Yeah,
Darren: you know, [00:38:00] so
David Chung: yeah.
Darren: generally been a generalist, generally been a generalist, uh, and I wish I would have chosen a niche sooner.
David Chung: Okay. What is one piece of advice that, well, I guess this could also apply, [00:38:15] but what's one piece of advice that you'd give to somebody who's beginning their coaching journey?
Darren: I
David Chung: I.
Darren: what, I reflect back, what I don't remember enough people saying is tap your [00:38:30] network as deep and wide as possible. And I think that has a multifaceted reason. There's a multifaceted reason for that. One, I think the obvious is. Business development and lead generation.
So many of us talk about how [00:38:45] great it is to get referrals and it's true. And the way we get referrals are the people that know us the best and the people that know us the best are our former colleagues, friends, family, et cetera,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: uh, as a little bit of a sidebar to that, what is interesting is [00:39:00] the people that many of us think are definitely going to help us. Do not. And the people were like, yeah, fine.
I'll reach out to David. Maybe he'll offer a helping hand. Like they go, you know, bend over backwards to help you. It's this really interesting phenomenon.
So the advice [00:39:15] I would give is go deep and wide in your network. Let people
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you do.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: It's
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: another piece of advice with your network and elsewhere.
I remember when I first became an entrepreneur, it was like this [00:39:30] secret,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: after almost every meeting, the person I was sitting across from would say, what can I do to help you? And of course, in my immaturity, I said, I need clients. You know, the worst thing to say, right? It wasn't until [00:39:45] that I reciprocated and someone said to me.
I'm growing my business in X and I appreciate any introductions to that person. I
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: that's the, that's the answer.
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: Right?
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: of the advice is [00:40:00] don't be afraid to ask for help and be specific. The specificity that I think works best is introductions. Who
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: could you introduce me to or hey, David, I looked through your linked in and I saw you're connected with some people [00:40:15] at XYZ company or by name,
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: do you know him well enough?
Would you be willing to make an intro that
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: was something that took me, you know, a few twists and turns to figure out.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: I think those are
David Chung: I'd love that. I, I mean, referrals. [00:40:30] You, it's funny that I think that people are sometimes afraid to, to tell others when they're starting a new endeavor like this, um, when they're starting in like a new business. And [00:40:45] personally too, when I started, I didn't really, I didn't really shout it out or tell people, and so no one really knew what I was doing.
And I wonder if, well, so this is for my own self-reflection. Was I just, [00:41:00] you know, fearful of it, was I, afraid of. Failure. I, I, I don't know. Um, I, I, I need to spend a little bit of time on that, but I think there, there's a hurdle there that we need, that when people are looking into starting a [00:41:15] business, they need to just overcome because, you know, you're starting a business and you need to get yourself, get the word out that you're doing it.
Before we wrap up, uh, I'd love to know what's next for you, for you and your business. [00:41:30] What, what are you thinking about for your next, maybe one to two years or, you know, you know, your, your five year roadmap, if you have something like that.
Darren: Know, a lot of a lot of our work has been one on one. And it is, it is wonderful, it truly is.
David Chung: [00:41:45] Yeah.
Darren: where we're starting to play a bit more, and where I think... where I'd like to play even more is in the team dynamic, coaching a leader at a time is, let's say, let's say it's [00:42:00] micro,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: one.
You change great. And there is an element
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: you know, the high tide raises all boats, right? If you
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: if you elevate, if you improve. Then there is some downstream. The reason I say [00:42:15] micro is maybe it's a little bit smaller. It's low, narrower, maybe it's not quite as, um, fast or as massive as the macro, which is team dynamics. When I think about the C -suite folks that we coach, [00:42:30] they are the top of the food chain at their company. making the decisions. They're not making decisions. They are creating culture. They're doing all sorts of stuff. What I've learned is that a lot of folks. [00:42:45] Lower down the totem pole, look up and they think they have all the answers. They have all the fun. They're doing all the things, but
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: behind closed doors is they're quite let me rephrase. They're as [00:43:00] dysfunctional as everybody else. And the problem is, is their dysfunction affects the entire company. Now, what
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: is so many companies are so still successful in, in light of that, or in spite of that.
The[00:43:15]
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: interesting thing is that. If they could resolve certain things,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
Darren: they debate, the way they brainstorm, the way they make decisions, way they don't talk about each other behind their back, the way that they hold each other accountable, right, the way that they [00:43:30] maybe reduce ego, the way that they maybe don't have to be the loudest or the smartest person in the room, that
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: role sometimes is simply to support you, David. Even though maybe I don't
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: with your
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: but we're colleagues and I want us all to be successful. [00:43:45] So I'm going down my narrative here a little bit, but the future of our business where we're starting to focus more energy is having a greater impact by coaching teams in the group setting and in a one -on -one setting and watching how that [00:44:00] whole team then elevates and then
David Chung: Yeah.
Darren: those below as well.
David Chung: Right. That's, that's really exciting. I think there's a, there is so much more impact and so much more that you can do in when you're doing that group coaching, [00:44:15] that team coaching. Um, and once you kind of crack that service proposition, I think that'll really help, you know, with the business as well. Right?
Because the business becomes more profitable when you can do, when you're doing group coaching, you serve more [00:44:30] people at the same time and you can end up charging more for work. So for one hour you can charge for more 'cause you're doing group coaching. So I'm not saying that in a great way.
I didn't even think about this. So [00:44:45] team coaching is great because one, you can, IM impact more people, but you can also from the business side of things, uh, increase your revenue at the same time. So I think there's multiple benefits when you can crack that. Darren, I really [00:45:00] appreciate your time. I've really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where you guys move in the future.
Darren: you, David. It's nice talking to you. I appreciate the opportunity.