Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

All right.

Good morning, Tom.

Good morning, Paul.

As usual, we've been chitchatting
before this call, so I'm not going to

even really pretend that we're just
seeing each other for the first time.

No, we've been chitchatting.

We've been chitchatting, but now that,
the time for that is over and the

time for a little bit of stoicism.

As has begun before we it's
going to be a short episode.

Yes.

Yeah.

Quick hit today.

The exciting thing, obviously, from
the perspective of the progression

of this podcast is book eight.

We made it hooray to the queue.

The fanfare here we are.

Yes.

How?

Yeah.

The obvious question is what's
going to be new in book eight.

Yes.

Yeah.

Do you think there's going to be a
lot new in the, in this philosophy

of Marcus is aging, so he must've put
something, like he must've put his

journal down at the end of book seven.

For some reason he was
like, okay, I've had enough.

That's the end of something.

Yeah.

And then picked it back up for some
reason in book eight, presumably, right?

Yeah.

Yes, I wonder if they were
literally different physical books.

He was like, oh, he ran out of pages.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess I don't really Oh, that's fine.

How clear is your mental image
of the actual apparatus with

which he is writing things?

Like he's using a quill.

Did they have pages they must have had,
or I guess I They have likes scrolls.

Yeah, I guess I do
associate them with scrolls.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Book binding.

Was that a Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I feel like that's a later,
that's like the printing press

type of, yeah, like revolution.

Okay.

So that seems to maybe lend some
credence to the theory that the

scroll that he was writing on.

No.

You can't have a scroll that's that long.

We've spent eight months
reading book seven.

There's no way that has way
more to do with us than him.

These are not that, I think if
you looked at this in a regular

book, it's not that many pages.

And they're pretty short entries.

Okay, so there's two theories.

Theory one is Scroll.

Milestone.

Okay, so yeah, you're right.

Theory one is the scroll ended and
really it's just the same thing, but

for an arbitrary reason, a new chapter.

Theory two is some milestone was achieved.

That's a little bit imperceptible
to me, to be honest, we'll see.

Yes.

And there's meaning in
the new Yes, a new book.

So let's find out.

Yes, we can hunt for that The one other
thought I was having as we just talk here

at the intro is you know We've made a lot
of hay out of oh, yes book seven finally

over book eight beginning I wonder if just
philosophically is looking forward to the

different books or the new beginnings here
Is that a betrayal of the philosophy that

of the book that we're reading at all?

To care, to want one book to be
over and the next one to begin is

that, we've been advancing that,
but are we, is that hypocritical?

It's a good question.

Okay.

So is it stoic of us to
make hay out of the books?

In some ways it's controlling
what we can control.

Yes.

Okay.

That's true.

At the end of the day, we really
don't know what's headed our

way, but there's something nice
about saying our goal is to.

Yes.

It's achievable.

And yeah, it's to finish
book seven, which we did.

Yes.

Okay.

I agree with that.

I think you're right.

I think that this is, yes, we
understand that this is, we'd like

the project that we're working on.

Yeah.

We think it's a good thing to do.

And one of the ways we
accomplished that project.

Although I guess that's the thing,
is that in some ways making progress

through the book is pretty worth
who cares in relationship to

why we actually like this thing.

Yes, that is the counter argument,
but I would say that was, I would say

it would be non stoic of us if we're
like, almost at the end and we're

celebrating being at the end, but
we're so far from Yes, that's true.

Yeah, any sort of conclusion
here that I feel like it's we're

still here for the journey.

We're still being stoic by
celebrating this completely arbitrary.

Yes.

Abstract notion of progress.

Okay.

Yes, I agree with you because it's almost,
it's just a way of marking passage through

a stream that is not even close to being.

Yeah, it's like celebrating like fall.

Like it'll just, it's fine.

It'll just come back around.

Yeah, this is a giant wheel.

We were locked in for years Tom.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

I agree with you that lifts
a weight from my shoulders.

I don't feel that we're betraying the book
by celebrating our progress through it.

Nice.

Okay.

All right.

Let's kick it off then
with the first entry.

In book eight.

Ooh, it's a bit of a long one.

He, okay.

Yes.

He built, he clearly built up some
ideas and then committed them to

a, to the page all in a long rush.

Okay, here we go.

I may pause or feel free to interrupt me.

Yeah.

Number one, another
encouragement to humility.

You can't claim to have lived
your life as a philosopher,

not even your whole adulthood.

You can see for yourself how far you are
from philosophy and so can many others.

You're tainted.

It's not so easy now to have a
reputation as a philosopher, and

your position is an obstacle as well.

So you know how things stand.

Now forget what they think of you.

Be satisfied if you can live
the rest of your life however

short as your nature demands.

Focus on that, and don't
let anything distract you.

You've wandered all over and
finally realized that you never

found what you were after.

How to live.

Not in syllogisms, not in money,
or fame, or self indulgence.

Nowhere.

And here we have a dialogue going on now.

Then where is it to be found?

Response, in doing what
nature, human nature, requires.

Nice, of course.

How?

Through first principles, which should
govern your intentions and your actions.

What principles?

Those to do with good and evil.

That nothing is good except what leads
to fairness, and self control, and

courage, and free will, and nothing
bad except what does the opposite.

Fantastic.

Fantastic book, starts at book eight.

Go ahead.

So he's clear, okay, so there is a little
bit of credence to the milestone theory.

Yes.

Yeah.

In the sense that he's he put it down.

He's I did it.

I'm a philosopher.

I've written seven books.

Yes.

And then he Now when I
walk around, everyone will

perceive me as a philosopher.

And then he realized that, ah, people
still don't quite see me that way.

Yes.

Back to the drawing board.

Yes.

Okay, baby, let's go.

Give me a new scroll.

Yes.

New scroll.

Yes.

So that's interesting.

This also just like very much underlines
that he wants to be a philosopher.

The guy doesn't want to be a king,
he wants to be a philosopher.

That's what I was Yeah.

That's the biggest shift I'm noticing
here is that now he's much clearer than

he's ever been to my recollection about
what he wants and what he is embarking

on doing with writing this stuff down.

And I guess whatever other philosophical
practices he has in his life.

Is that personal growth you think?

Yeah.

With age.

Yeah.

It's the most explicit acknowledgment
about what he's after, which is nice.

And it is just the, what, how
to live, he says, which I would

contend is what most philosophers
would say that their work is about.

Yeah.

Yeah, that is a good point.

Yeah, he's really starting
to clarify his goals.

Yeah.

I wonder if some of that involves
Shedding his goals for as an emperor

at all, or if he feels that those
are complimentary, it's, is it like

he's realized that whatever he's
not, he's done this emperor thing for

awhile and he's I'm bored of this.

This isn't really giving me, it's not
scratching the itch that I need scratched.

Yeah.

Deeper down.

And so I'm only interested in,
or I'm much more interested

in the philosophy stuff now.

Yeah.

It's funny.

The line that stuck out to me is, and
your position is an obstacle as well.

Yes.

That's the first role as an emperor.

Yes.

That's an obstacle.

That's a goal.

Yeah.

What an annoying hindrance
to the emperor of Rome.

Yeah.

It is the first time, there's
always this ambiguity, I think with

the translation of the word you,
I, maybe it's used the same way.

Sure.

In his writing.

But there's always this question in
my mind about to what extent is the

you that he's writing to literally
himself because this is a journal, or

is it more like the proverbial you?

This one, your position is an obstacle,
makes it very explicit that the

you in these sentences is not me.

Yeah.

It's Marcus.

Our position is not an obstacle, Tom.

Yeah, I agree.

So I guess that's a little bit
alienating for me to be like, okay.

Yes.

All right.

This book is not or put differently I
guess it underscores that it's yes it is

for a specific group of people that he is
writing namely him Yeah, he's very much

not ready to celebrate himself yet, right?

it's very like Christian in the sense that
you're tainted like you're not there yet.

You're not good enough, like kind
of vibes, which, yeah, whatever.

But I do wish he gave himself a
little bit more credit sometimes, just

from a quality of life standpoint.

Yeah.

And then there's the whole
second half of this entry.

Yeah, it's just like it's
just Marcus googly gook.

Like it's just I Okay, so let me venture
the possibility of another or just another

thing that strikes me about this that kind
of appears in The second half he's okay.

So in the end of the first half
He's talking about you've wandered

all over and finally realized that
you never and he's talking about

all the places he looked for Yeah.

How to live.

And the first on his list is

syllogisms, and then money, fame,
and self indulgence come after that.

Yeah.

I'm very interested in that because
syllogisms, I think, maybe all our

listeners know what a syllogism is, but I
believe a syllogism is a kind of logical

construction which says if A implies
B and B implies C, then A implies C.

I think that's what.

Yeah.

What.

Syllogisms are you're right.

I just googled it and it's to me.

That's like synonymous with philosophy So
I think I read it as a little more it's

a it's related to philosophy But it's
a very strict analytical math II kind

of philosophy That's a little further.

He's not really like this book
is not a book of syllogisms.

That's true at all But has he tried
looking for happiness and syllogisms?

What I like about that actually is You
know, I think modern humans have this

trajectory to where we look for meanings,
especially in youth in different places.

And for me, syllogisms is actually the
one where I'm like, yeah, I recognize

that one as having been a part of
my journey of there was, there were

moments in high school or whatever,
where things happen in math class.

And you're like, wow, maybe the whole
world can be explained this way.

Yes, totally.

Yes.

I, anyway, I love that.

Acknowledge that's cool.

I've never seen that anywhere else in
terms of the things that people might

look for meaning in life for yes.

So you relate to that line.

Cause I think I know what you mean.

Like you had a period of
life where it was like.

I can explain everything.

Yes, exactly.

What an intoxicating feeling that
is when you have cool teachers.

It sounds like that, the fact that it's
listed first here to me maybe implies

that it was a boyhood thing for him that
he had philosophical teachers or math

teachers or whatever who taught him these
principles of reasoning about the world.

And he was like, this
is the best thing ever.

This is going to be.

This explains everything and the whatever
hole in my heart is full from this thing.

Yeah.

And then he's describing this process
of growing up and realizing like the

world is just, it's too complex to be,
it doesn't work in mathematical formulas.

So yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And then, okay.

So the reason I'm bringing that up
in relation to your Point about the

second half is that he also talks about

how to do what nature requires He
says should be done through first

principles, which is also this
very kind of like Mathy analytical

way of thinking about the world.

I feel like first principles is like
Such a, at least in the translation,

it's such a mathy phrase to me.

It's overused today.

That's the phrase.

I use that phrase all the time.

Yeah, but it's a good, meaningful,
like I like it as a phrase, but

I feel I'm wondering if somehow
between book seven to book eight,

marcus has gotten in touch with
something a little bit, yeah, exactly.

It feels like he's reminded himself
of some of the logical philosophical

underpinnings that maybe sparked
his interest in this whole project.

So maybe that's the
difference between okay.

He's like a little bit more.

Yeah, he's a bolt.

He flipped over the scroll that book
seven was written on and realized

he had written some geometry proofs
on their way back in the day and

was like, Oh yeah, this part of me.

Yeah, nice.

Yeah, so anyway, yes, I agree with you.

Other than that, I think this little
dialogue he puts in the second half

of the entry feels pretty recognizable
to those of us who know him well.

Yeah.

He emphasizes, he's emphasizing fairness
pretty hard in that last sentence.

Nothing is good except that,
except what leads to fairness.

And self control and courage and free
will, but I don't, fairness is not

usually one of the principles that
I associate, like the virtues that I

associate with him, super hardcore.

So maybe that is a little
bit of Marcus growing up.

Fairness is, has to do with external
things in a way that like self control,

courage, and free will are all internal.

Yeah.

He met.

Yeah.

No, there's a way of parsing fairness
where he really means actually.

Fairness in the way you treat
people, which could be a more

internal parsing as opposed to yeah
Justice in the world or whatever.

Yeah.

That was gonna be my quip that I always
do, which is just ah, give me some exam.

Yes, . These are like four
contradicting things that, that, yeah.

So what's the priority order?

Like how do you actually make decisions?

Yeah.

Not like leads to fairness,
self-control, courage, and free will.

Like what?

Like how do I, yes.

What do I do with that?

Yeah, it is.

These kinds of dialogues are
so frustrating because in

some ways he is asking exactly
the questions I want to ask.

If I just look through this dialogue,
it's okay, so where is the thing that

you've been looking for to be found?

Okay.

In doing what human nature requires?

Fine.

Yes, I get that.

That's your thing, Marcus.

And then he asks himself
the follow up question.

Ow.

And I'm like, yes, thank you.

That's the question.

Great question.

Marcus.

I love this question.

And then he says, through first
principles, which should govern

your intentions and actions.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then, but then again, what principles?

Yes.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Those to do with good and
evil is a pretty vague answer.

No, yeah, for sure.

For sure.

I feel like this is the classic
situation where, um, you're led

on by these great questions.

Yeah.

The answers are like a little bit
abstract and they're delivered quickly.

So by the time.

My brain realizes that it's over
like that was all he was gonna say.

It's like he's moved on.

I don't have a chance to be
like, hold on wait yes, say more.

I want to cross examine him a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit because it
does feel like yeah, I agree.

Like he might drops like pretty early and
yeah, before I realize what's happening.

He's good at asking the questions.

Yeah, the questions are good questions.

The answers are yes.

It's funny that he's doing this.

He's giving questions, they're
answers that almost feel

to us a little bit evasive.

Like he doesn't totally want to
answer the good question that he's

just asked himself, and instead he
avoids it and then asks another one.

Okay, number two.

One more unrelated thing that,
a little personal overlay here.

So this not in syllogisms.

It's but in first principles concept,
I'm struggling with this a little

bit myself where I, one of the
things I really used to get a lot

of pleasure out of is like writing.

And I would write about worky stuff
just like very, I would try to write

very practical things because the
world is full of all this abstract

kind of it depends kind of writing.

So I would really get joy out of
being like, this is the process.

This is why apply the process and
I'm having more and more trouble with

that now because I just Not the two.

I don't want to like make it sound
like I yeah Like I'm all knowing

but I just more and more of those
things that used to appeal to me is

Obviously, this is the answer now.

I'm like, ah It depends.

It really depends.

Yes.

I totally sympathize with that.

That's not a good article.

It depends is not fun to read.

It makes writing harder.

Yes.

I agree.

Or write.

Yes.

It's true.

Yes.

I know.

I totally sympathize with that.

That is something that I
think I struggled with in my.

In still but yeah, it's something I
remember struggling with acutely in

graduate school Yeah, we're like so much
about of higher education Is learning

all the specific ways in which it depends
and like in some ways Being good at

that is about being very precise and
being able to explain complicated links

of interdependency But also it means
that writing about anything you become

this Horrible thing that just depends
what like it that you just thrown.

Yes.

You can't say any yes.

So you have to, I think that
the impulse you're describing to

fight against that and say, wait a
minute, what can I say that is true?

And yeah, does not just depend is
a really good and important one.

Yeah.

And yes it's, it is actually
what marks good writing.

Yeah, just, it's just 10 times harder,
getting past the, there's all these

like nice little quips that make good
means that, that sort of are, that,

that are now crossed off my list.

It's like people management stuff.

It's Oh God, but like this really only
make our stage of company with our

kind of, that's where that applies.

So I have to put all
these caveats in place.

It's yeah.

Yeah.

That's what it made me think of it.

So his, Marcus's answer is do
what human nature requires,

based on what's good and evil.

And I'm just like, this doesn't
answer my question at all, Marcus.

So what am I writing about?

You're accusing him of giving
an it depends type answer here.

Is that fair?

Yeah, I think that is what
he's doing a lot of the time.

I don't even really mean I should just
write about what leads to fairness,

self control, courage, and free will.

No problem.

Yeah.

That seems easy and straightforward.

Yeah.

And nothing bad except
what does the opposite.

So don't write about things
that do the opposite.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I will.

Okay, I have one more thought about
that, which is I think that the dilemma

you're identifying about somehow learning
more and acquiring more experience

sometimes makes it harder to yeah.

About those things because you've
seen them in more complexity and

your ideas become more complicated.

Yeah.

Is part of why, as a reader, I
have started gravitating away from

nonfiction and towards fiction.

Yeah.

Is that I think fiction is a way
of getting around to this problem.

I see.

Of.

Being like I don't need to
articulate the whole global truth.

I'll just say some stuff that
touches on it, but without

necessarily explaining it all.

Yes.

That's fair.

I've noticed myself going, I've certainly
gone away from books that try to create

syllogisms and towards nonfiction
that just like lists facts and lets

me do the that's another solution too.

Yes.

I agree.

But yes, I think the sort
of that's cool though.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that is.

I'm not a fiction guy,
but I should try it.

Yeah, there might be.

It's a, you have the muscles, I think, if
you wanted to use them in that world, I

think, from both this podcast and our long
English education at Blake and all that.

Yeah.

Or you can read books like this,
that are both trying to explain the

world, but also, Do such an abstract
job that they aren't annoying.

Yes, I'm glad you brought, I think that's
a really good access for us to have or a

little tool in our toolbox to understand
is that the sort of like specific, the

challenge that Marcus has with specificity
might not just be his maddening thing.

It might be that he is struggling
with a universal challenge

in writing that we also do.

encounter all the time it's maybe even
harder be made even harder in philosophy

because the thing he is trying to
write about Is so big in general, you

know The voice of it depends is just
screaming in his ear all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right So he's like each of
these entries Is like an attempt

and at the beginning of the attempt,
he's I'm going to nail it this time.

I'm going to get it.

It's going to be amazing.

And then every time it's, ah, I can't
quite, what are those principles?

Ah, shoot.

They're based on good and evil,
like, all right, let's try again.

Yes.

Yeah.

It does feel like.

Yeah, he's trying to corral an animal
or something and he's all around it.

Yeah, exactly.

Darting forward and trying,
but it alludes to main gap.

A whole lifetime of trying.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

But yes, there's something to be
learned from a book that just models

doing that over and over again.

Huh.

Yeah.

Okay, nice.

Number two.

For every action, ask,
how does it affect me?

Could I change my mind about it?

Nice.

But soon I'll be dead,
and the slate's empty.

So this is the only question.

Is it the action of a responsible
being, part of society, and

subject to the same degrees as God?

Okay.

So clearly he's talking about someone
else's action that he doesn't like.

Yes.

That's how I think for every action,
yes, I think implicitly he's saying,

for everything that happens to you.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

It's action and reaction,
one of my favorite concepts.

Yes, I'm having trouble parts
parsing this a little bit.

I want your opinion on this.

He's so he's put he poses.

There's two sets of questions here.

First, he says you could for every
action ask, how does it affect me?

Could I change my mind about it?

But then he's saying,
but we'll be dead soon.

And the slate's empty.

So this is the only question.

And what I don't understand
is Oh yeah, which question?

Yeah, is he saying that last question,
Is it the action of a responsible

being, part of society, etc.

Does that somehow replace
the first question?

It's like a response?

I don't quite understand how these
questions relate to one another.

Do you have an opinion on that?

Good reading, Tom.

Good reading.

You're digging into some detail
that I think is fruitful.

Here's how I'm reading it now
that you've pointed it out.

Yeah.

So your first reaction is
like, how does it affect me?

Oh man, this person did a thing
that's like kind of against my goals.

And now I'm going to have to
work, go corral these other

court members and deal with this.

And can I change my, yeah, I guess I
can change my mind about it's okay.

It's an opportunity.

Yeah.

So he's that's what you should do.

But there's one level deeper,
which is just remember you're

going to be dead anyway.

Yeah.

So if, even if it affects me and
it's negative, is it the action?

Is it part of society?

Is it subject to the same degrees?

Yeah.

Yes.

To grace us, God.

Yeah, it is.

Chill out.

I see.

Okay.

So the, thank you.

I think that's a helpful reading.

Your, the implicit answer to
the latter question is, yes,

always, basically, is the point.

He's saying.

Although action of a responsible
being seems a little bit, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's the bit that's confusing to me.

It does seem like some of the stuff.

But I guess he's saying, if it truly isn't
the action of something that is subject

to God's decrees then you can, it's okay
to have a reaction to it that's Sure.

That, that part feels weird to me.

Yes, maybe, yeah, okay, we let's
maybe not get too hung up on that.

I like your reading.

Thank you for helping me with it,
because I do think that makes sense.

That it, this is He's saying in some
ways don't freak out too much about

how every little thing affects you or
whether or not you're thinking the right

thing about it or whatever it's okay.

It's more look at it and say.

Is that kind of just how the world works?

And you're like, yeah, that
is just how the world works.

If we read it that way, it makes sense.

Yeah.

It's, cause some actions are like, okay,
there truly is a silver lining here.

And some actions are
like my daughter died.

How does that affect me?

Could I change my mind about it?

Yes.

Not really.

Yes.

It's not, it's not great.

And so then you fall back
on, I'll be dead soon.

The slate's empty.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yep.

I dig it.

It's, there's some interesting tension
between that and his philosophy and

the more general philosophy of like,
all that matters is how you react

to stuff is like another way of
articulating the stoic philosophy,

this almost feels like he's saying.

Don't worry so much about
how you react to stuff.

How you react.

Yeah, that is interesting, actually.

Our reading, which may actually not
be what he says, to be honest, but

our reading is very kind to ourselves.

Yes.

Which, like we're saying, it's
okay if you can't manage your

own reaction to something.

Yeah.

There's, yeah.

And maybe another way of saying
that is something more, almost along

the lines of don't be like, yeah,
anxiety doesn't help you that much.

Relax with the freaking out
about every single thing and

worrying about what might happen.

Yeah.

Yeah, the responsible being part
throws me off, but yes, I agree.

I still don't totally have
a good explanation for that.

Okay.

I wonder if we can, I guess I have
a slight read it the other way.

Yeah.

I'm not sure.

I don't know how to make much more
progress with this one specifically,

but I, what it's doing for me is
raising a slight antenna for, is he

thinking about actions and reactions?

A little bit differently now.

Is he having any kind of refinement
or change of heart about that

component of the philosophy?

Interesting.

So maybe there's this idea in book eight.

He's realized he just
wants to be a philosopher.

And so it's less about me.

So how does it affect me?

Could I change my mind about it?

It's more about this as an
action in society and theories.

I recognize it as a part of a process
that I'm a part of more broadly.

Interesting idea.

Yeah.

So yeah, I guess I, a question we
can look for moving forward is yeah,

is this maybe is this just a weird
one where we don't totally get it?

Or is this maybe the beginning of a
some kind of slight change in Marcus?

Okay.

I think we might have to leave it there
because we gotta go short one But short

one, but I think a nice way to start and
I think an exciting new beginning of our

journey here So don't be too excited.

Okay.

Thank you as always Thanks, everyone.

All right.

See ya.

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