Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

How to have the conversations that are most difficult — and most important.

Before you can have hard conversations with others, you need to have an honest conversation with yourself. That's the counterintuitive advice from Sheila Heen, who says our own internal narratives often derail our attempts at negotiation and conflict resolution.
"The first negotiation is actually a negotiation I have with myself about my own story," explains Heen, a Harvard Law School lecturer and co-author of Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most. When entering challenging interactions, she recommends a powerful shift where we consider that our perspective is only one side of the story. "If I can shift my purpose from convincing you of something to just understanding how you see it and why we might see it differently, that actually is more likely to generate a good conversation with less defensiveness for both of us."
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Heen joins Matt Abrahams to explore effective communication in high-stakes situations. From giving and receiving feedback with her “ACE” framework (Appreciation, Coaching, and Evaluation) to recognizing the "degrees of difficulty" in disagreements, she offers practical strategies for having productive conversations even when emotions run high.

Episode Reference Links:

Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:44) - Managing Anxiety in Tough Conversations
  • (04:58) - Why Emotions Matter
  • (08:06) - Shifting the Story We Tell Ourselves
  • (09:24) - Starting with the Real Issue
  • (11:03) - Getting Unstuck in Conflict
  • (14:01) - ACE: The Three Types of Feedback
  • (17:03) - Making Feedback Actionable
  • (19:23) - Finding Common Ground
  • (21:00) - The Final Three Questions
  • (29:32) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Sheila Heen
Author | Educator | Public speaker

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Most advice on conflict
resolution, negotiation, and feedback

is to focus on the other person.

And while important, it is more
important to focus first on yourself.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I look forward to
speaking with Sheila Heen.

Sheila is a lecturer at Harvard Law School
and co-founder of Triad Consulting Group.

She's also the co-author
of the bestselling books,

Difficult Conversations,
and Thanks for the Feedback.

Welcome, Sheila.

Sheila Heen: I am delighted to be here.

We're gonna have fun.

Matt Abrahams: Should we get started?

Sheila Heen: Let's.

Matt Abrahams: Many people avoid
difficult conversations out of fear.

What advice do you have for overcoming
the anxiety that often accompanies

these types of interactions?

Sheila Heen: I think overcoming the
anxiety is maybe better framed as getting

honest with ourselves about the anxiety.

Some of that anxiety is well placed,
particularly if my purpose in the

conversation is to convince you that
you're wrong or to convince you that

I'm right, 'cause obviously I'm right,
it is probably not going to go well.

So when I'm negotiating with myself
about having the courage to take the

risk to have a conversation, the two
things that help me are, number one,

to remember that worrying about the
potential costs of raising something

important to me is only half the ledger.

The other half of the ledger is
what are the potential costs of

avoiding it and letting it fester.

And those are slower, they're
less technicolor in my imagination

because they're not going to happen
in the moment that I raise it.

But they're still very real.

And I think we discount
the costs of avoiding.

The second thing is to negotiate
with myself about what am I trying

to achieve in this conversation?

And if I can shift my purpose from
convincing you of something to instead

just understanding how you see it
and why we might see it differently,

that actually is more likely to
generate a good conversation with

less defensiveness for both of us.

And at the end, we don't have to agree.

I can achieve my purpose simply by asking
a lot of questions and then sharing how

I think about it differently, and that'll
push the conversation forward and then

we can go away and think about what we've
heard and what might make sense next.

Matt Abrahams: So this notion of reframing
it as an opportunity to get understanding

can take a lot of the pressure off.

Sheila Heen: It can take
a lot of the pressure off.

When I invite you into a conversation
about why I'm right, I'm basically

saying, Hi, I'm casting a play.

In this play I am the hero
and you are the problem.

Would you like to be in my play?

And you're like, no, I don't wanna be in
your play 'cause it's completely miscast.

If I can shift my purposes, Hey, I'm
casting a play where two characters

try to understand what's up.

And you're like, that sounds
like an interesting play.

Let's try it out.

Matt Abrahams: So make it an invitation.

Sheila Heen: Make it an invitation
that somebody would want to say yes to.

Matt Abrahams: I like
your analogy of the play.

And thinking about the cost of avoiding is
really important because I know in my own

life and in the lives of many, I know we
focus on the other side of that equation,

and not focus on what are the costs
of avoiding the interaction instead of

just fixating on the interaction itself.

In your book Difficult Conversations,
you emphasize the importance of

understanding the underlying emotions
and assumptions in tough conversations.

What tactics can we use to stay calm and
focused as emotions escalate, and how can

we reflect on those emotions in advance?

Sheila Heen: One of the things
that I've found really interesting

about difficult conversations
is that by the time something

becomes a difficult conversation,
we've got at least two problems.

We've got whatever we're
disagreeing about on the surface.

Should mom stay in rehab or
is she ready to come home?

Is this the right strategic decision
and investment for us as a board?

But if it's a difficult conversation,
typically there's a deeper issue,

which is how we each feel treated in
how we're navigating this together.

Because you never listen,
because you always think you're

right and need to get your way.

And that's really a feelings question.

Or why am I never consulted about this?

Or when I am consulted,
you never take my advice.

Part of the feelings piece is let's
talk about the real issues here, and

if we can actually talk a little bit
about those deeper issues, then we're

actually addressing more of the root of
the problem that's gonna make the surface

issues easier for us now and over time.

Ironically, the instinct for us is to try
to keep feelings out of the conversation.

Let's not open that whole can of worms,
stay calm, rational, business focused.

When we do that, we're not
getting to the deeper issue.

Part of what causes people to yell, cry,
or get sarcastic when emotions burst into

the conversation is because we're trying
to tamp them down and keep them out.

So they come out as being emotional.

There's a big difference between being
emotional and handling feelings well.

Paradoxically naming or describing
the emotion I'm feeling can

be a release valve for it.

So if I say I feel confused, I just am
frustrated 'cause I feel like we're going

in circles, then my physiological feeling
of being frustrated can ease a little bit.

And if we can narrate and just name what
we're feeling, it can help us acknowledge

that this isn't easy and then refocus on
what we're trying to understand or unpack.

Matt Abrahams: So it takes a moment
to reflect on how we are feeling,

and then once that happens, just
sharing that can be a way of bringing

them to the conversation without
them just bursting onto the scene.

They also lay the groundwork to
have a discussion about them.

Sheila Heen: I think that's right, and
in doing so, I'm also inviting yours.

One mistake that's easy to make is
that I'm either so preoccupied with

my own feelings that I forget that you
often have many of the same feelings.

You also feel frustrated
and impatient and whatever.

Or I'm so preoccupied with your
reaction that I am neglecting thinking

about how I'm gonna manage myself.

And really we need to be
paying attention to both.

Matt Abrahams: And you said something
earlier that I think is really important.

It's the story that we
bring to the situation.

So we have in our minds a story about
this interaction that we're about to

have that may or may not be accurate.

Sheila Heen: So we have a story about
what has happened, what is happening right

now, and what we think should happen.

In difficult conversations, we
talk about that story itself

having three key components.

One is, I'm preoccupied with what
I'm pretty sure I'm right about.

The second is, whose fault is it
that we're having this problem?

And the third is, why
are you acting this way?

What are your intentions or
motivations or character that are

causing you to be so difficult?

That story drives how I
pretend to listen to you.

The first negotiation is actually a
negotiation I have to have with myself

about my own story to shift from being
focused on what I'm right about, to

being curious about why it is given.

It's so obvious that I'm right,
but you see it differently.

To shift from blame to thinking about
what are we each contributing to the

problem and to shift from focusing
on your intentions or character to,

can I describe the impact on me?

I don't know why you're doing what
you're doing, but what's important to

me is that you understand the impact
it's having either on me or on the team,

or on the business or the community.

If I can make that shift in my own
mind, then it's actually a more

inviting conversation for both of us.

Matt Abrahams: Teasing out
those different components of

the story is really important.

I can imagine for myself in a situation
where I have to have a difficult

conversation, maybe with one of my kids
or a coworker, I would have to damp

down some of my emotions first to get
to that place where I could actually do

that introspection about my story, and
then how do I actually kick off that

conversation about the deeper level?

I've invited you here to have a
conversation about some topic,

but really it's the underlying
issue that's the challenge.

How do I start that conversation
about the underlying issue?

Sheila Heen: The natural place
to start is within my own story.

In my story you're the problem.

The mistake we sometimes make is we
think, well, I've been told and I've

heard on this podcast a lot, that I
should listen and ask lots of questions.

So now I'm gonna try to start by
asking questions about your story.

There's not something necessarily wrong
with that, but if I'm not dealing with

my own story and including it, it can
feel false or forced, or I'm asking

questions, but they're not real questions.

So the key from our point of
view is to try to step to the

third story as an observer who
understood what we each think.

How would they describe
the difference between us?

I can do that myself.

So it might sound something like,
I'm guessing we have really different

preferences for how this should
be handled, or I'm guessing we

have really different predictions
about what the risks are here, and

I'm curious to talk about that.

I'm happy to share mine and
I'm particularly interested to

hear what you're worried about.

That is what we call starting the
conversation from the third story,

and it's one that includes both of
our stories as part of the purpose

of the conversation, and that's an
invitation that they're likely to take.

Matt Abrahams: I wanna talk about when
these types of interactions get stuck,

negotiations, conflict gets stuck.

We're, we're cycling or circling
on the same issue, we're not able

to get out of our own worldview.

How do you get unstuck without sacrificing
your position or your self-worth?

Sheila Heen: So I think the first question
to ask is why do I think we're stuck?

To do some diagnosis.

Is it because we're not understanding
why we each feel so strongly about it?

Is it because we're trading positions?

This is the outcome that I need.

In negotiation, people typically take
positions and then say, we must have

X, Y, or Z, and we can't give you X,
Y, or Z, but we can give you A, B, or

C. If we're trading positions, then
maybe we need to dig underneath for the

underlying interests and concerns that
we each think our solution will meet.

And we need to talk about those
deeper concerns that lead us to think

that's the only thing we can accept.

It might be that we're at impasse because
we have the wrong people at the table.

So every time we think of an
idea that might move us forward,

then well, we can't do that.

We would need higher ups or
collaborators or whatever, and we

don't think they'd agree to that.

Maybe we should find out.

For me, the impasse question
has 10 or 15 possible answers.

And if you're not asking that
question first, you're gonna

misdirect your energies.

And one thing you can do
is just observe, name.

It feels like we're going in
circles and we feel stuck.

And I wonder why that's happening.

What's your sense of why it's happening?

And then I'm happy to
share what I'm noticing.

And now I've made it a joint problem
to do the diagnosis together, and

that alone can help us come together
to understand why we're stuck.

I'll say one more thing, which
is occasionally we're stuck

because it doesn't make sense
for me to move forward with this.

I should say no, but a lot of people have
trouble saying no and walking away 'cause

they don't wanna let other people down.

It's usually rooted in identity.

I'm very loyal.

I don't wanna abandon you.

I feel it might be rude, but that
means I'm not being upfront about,

I just am thinking this doesn't make
sense for me to move forward with.

I like you and as things play
out, if we check in a month, we

might be at a different place, but
right now I don't think it makes

sense for us to move forward.

Matt Abrahams: So it sounds like the
way to manage an impasse or being

stuck is to reflect in terms of what
is causing that impasse, and in some

cases it might be your unwillingness
to just cut bait and say, we're done.

Sheila Heen: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: But much like you talked
about when you were talking about emotion.

We have to look deeper and understand
what might be causing this and have

the conversation at that level.

Sheila Heen: I think that's right.

Yeah.

And we often skip that and just try a
bunch of different things, or we try

the same thing over and over thinking
we'll get a different response.

Matt Abrahams: Again, it can be very
hard to take that step back and reflect

and see what's going on, but reminding
ourselves that by getting to perhaps

the root cause can remove, in this
case, the impasse, in the case of

emotions can allow us to have the real
conversation that needs to be had.

I wanna switch to feedback 'cause I know
you have a lot of thoughts on feedback.

What are some common mistakes
people make when giving feedback

and how can we avoid them to ensure
that our feedback is received as

constructive rather than critical?

Sheila Heen: Probably the first question
is, does this person want my feedback?

And unsolicited feedback can
be some of the hardest feedback

to be on the receiving end of.

Now, that said, sometimes we are
responsible for providing feedback.

We're a manager, we're a parent, we're
a colleague, that sees that what's

happening right now, actually, I have
a responsibility to say something.

One of the things that has helped me is
just to understand that there are really

three types of feedback, and often as a
giver, I'm not clear on which kind I'm

offering, or my receiver is hoping for a
different kind than what I am offering.

So the three kinds, the easy way
to remember them is ACE, A, C,

E. So the first is appreciation.

Just, I see you, I get you.

I'm noticing what's valuable
about what you're doing, how hard

you're working at it, et cetera.

The C is coaching, and by coaching
I mean anything that helps someone

else become more effective or
efficient or knowledgeable.

If my goal is to help you get
better, it counts as coaching.

So that's the engine for learning, but
it bumps into the third type, which

is evaluation and evaluation rates
or ranks you about whether you're

meeting expectations, about whether
you are exceeding or falling short.

Part of what's hard, and from my point
of view, the term constructive criticism

comes from this cross transaction where
as a giver, I think I'm offering you

coaching, but as a receiver, what you
hear is judgment, evaluation, right?

So I'm super clear that I give my kids,
three of them, all kinds of brilliant

coaching is really helpful to them.

And yet they hear that
they're not measuring up.

Part of it is just naming
it and getting in alignment.

So when someone says to me, Hey, could
you gimme some feedback about this draft?

I've learned to ask what would
be helpful to you right now?

Maybe it's just appreciation 'cause you're
not sure there's even any value here.

So do I see anything worth
pursuing, which is a combination

of appreciation and evaluation, or
what do you like about this draft?

What speaks to you about this draft,
might be helpful at this stage.

Another would be, I can't
figure out this story.

I don't think it's working,
and I'd love your input.

So they're asking for coaching,
and a third might be, we think

this is ready to send out.

Do you think it's ready to go?

And that's an evaluation question.

Does it meet expectations or do
we each think it's good enough?

And so just getting aligned on that
is a giver and a receiver can really

straighten out what we're each hoping for.

Matt Abrahams: It is important to
delineate the type of feedback, and I

appreciate the ACE, the appreciation,
the coaching, the evaluation.

It seems to me that we, as the
person giving feedback can ask,

what is it that you're looking for?

But it also, I believe, could
be really helpful if those of us

seeking feedback could be very clear.

A lot of times we'll just
say, can you gimme feedback?

Or How'd that go?

Instead of being more specific.

Do you have specific guidance around
the actual phrasing of feedback that

can actually help it be beneficial?

Sheila Heen: As a receiver, one
question that I've found useful is,

what's one thing that if I changed
it, you think would make this

better or make this meeting more
effective, or whatever the context is.

The other thing that I try to keep
in mind is that getting clear.

So that as a receiver I can see what
my giver is trying to say or as a giver

trying to help my receiver understand what
I mean, is really a joint endeavor and

there's no avoiding the fact that you've
gotta start with a sort of label or topic.

Like, I think one of the things that
would be helpful is if you were more

responsive or if I think you're too nice.

That's incredibly vague and frustrating
and because as a receiver I have

a reaction to it, I'm so like,
okay, thanks for your feedback.

Goodbye.

Rather than saying, wow, I don't
know what to think about that.

Help me understand what you mean.

And we can, as givers and
receivers together, we can ask

questions in a couple directions.

One is backward looking.

Where's this coming from?

You must have noticed some things that
can concerned you, or you had some

expectations about how I would handle
something and I did something different.

Like there were a bunch of specific
things that happened that have

led you to offer me this feedback.

So that's backward looking.

The other thing that we can do
is ask questions forward looking.

If I were to take your advice,
what would I do differently?

What specifically would I do differently?

Or it might be, look, if there was
one thing you were gonna do tomorrow

or change to experiment with, it
would be when you get an email, just

send back a note that says, on it.

Back to you soon.

Because we can't tell whether
you're getting our emails.

That's a very specific thing that matches
being more responsive, but is less global

maybe than you thought it was before.

And I'm getting clearer about
what I actually am picturing

you would change, more concrete.

Matt Abrahams: It clearly seems that
effective feedback is a dialogue where

there's a communication and questioning
and clarity that is sought and delivered.

And as a feedback giver, I need to
remind myself that I need to be specific.

It seems to me that feedback, negotiation,
and conflict management are all circling

around some of the same key ideas.

If you were to give one or two practical
bits of advice to help people in each

of those areas, what would it be?

Sheila Heen: For me, the thing that
has made the biggest difference is

to have a few analytical tools that
just help me see beneath the surface.

'Cause on the surface, whether it's
conflict or difficult conversations

or negotiation or feedback on the
surface, it just feels like a mess.

And why do I wanna get
any closer to that mess?

And if you look underneath the
mess, there are a handful of things

going on that if we can understand
them, we have our first win.

We don't know what to do about them
yet, but we better understand them.

So for me, thinking what is
this about for each of us, often

we're talking past each other.

One of the things that happens
is that what we each think this

conflict is about is different.

So we keep saying, what's
most important to me?

And then you say, what's
most important to you.

And we're not actually
responding to each other.

I think just as a first step,
understanding what is this about?

What's most important
about it to each of us?

Can at least help us name the different
topics that we should talk about and get

aligned on which to talk about first.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

I think that's a very
powerful starting place.

And then I think the second step
you already mentioned as well, which

is to reflect what's the story I'm
bringing or what's my take on this.

Very helpful.

Sheila, this has been fantastic.

Before we end, I'd like to ask
three questions of all the guests.

One I create just for you, and
then the other two are similar.

Are you up for that?

Sheila Heen: Sure.

Matt Abrahams: So my first
question is quite self-serving.

I find myself in several
challenging situations often in

my personal life with my family.

What advice do you give to people who
have to negotiate and manage conflict

in a situation where you know it
will be continual, we're gonna have

another family meal, we're going
to take another family vacation.

What advice and guidance do you
have to help take some of the edge

off and affect change in a way so
we don't feel like we're having

the same fight over and over again?

Sheila Heen: We are having the same
fight over and over again, aren't we?

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

Sheila Heen: And partly because
we're each bringing such, I'll

call it rich, family experience
with us into those relationships.

And also the beauty of being in a
family is that you hopefully have

the sense that people accept me
for who I am, despite my flaws.

And that means that we're less
careful and we're more reactive.

I think the thing that I regret looking
back is early on, not taking a beat

to decide how I want to respond, and
instead just reacting where my internal

voice thinks, Okay, that's ridiculous.

So I just say, That's ridiculous.

And dismiss something that
someone's trying to actually

raise with me that's important.

Matt Abrahams: That notion of reflexively
responding and not taking a beat certainly

plays out in my life and I'm easily
triggered to respond in the ways I have,

and I think taking that beat will help.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Sheila Heen: Boy, there are so many
communicators that I admire for

different reasons, but one of the ones
I've been thinking about a lot lately

is, oddly enough, Anderson Cooper,
his new podcast series, All There Is,

it's a podcast about grief, and one of
the things I really have appreciated

about it is how honest and raw it is.

It's beautifully edited, but it also
just invites us in to his internal

experience of grappling with grief,
which then connects us all, and I also

love the way that he invites others in.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing that,
and he's certainly a master communicator.

I am not surprised that you would
be drawn to a communicator who

addresses emotion and who is all
about inviting others to collaborate

or experience something together.

Those are two themes that came
through in much of what you said.

Final question.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Sheila Heen: Your guests have named
just wise and insightful ingredients.

So I found myself in thinking about this
question, thinking about what are the

seasonings or spices you would add that
other people might not be thinking about?

So we're gonna assume
that the cake is baked.

And, and is beautiful
from your other guests.

One of the things that I've been
thinking a little bit about is just

degrees of difficulty, because I think
we hear a lot these days, especially

about how, boy, disagreement is good
and disagreement should be out on

the table, and that's where we really
learn from each other and that's

where we can connect with each other.

And I think what we're maybe not talking
about enough is degrees of difficulty.

So there are three things that I think
increase the degree of difficulty.

One is, is it about a
topic that matters to me?

So if I ask you what kind of ice cream
is your favorite, do I care whether

you eat different ice cream than I eat?

But if it's about a topic that isn't near
and dear to my heart, it's not that hard.

And of course, disagreement is
interesting and fun to talk about.

Now let's take it to the next level,
which is, is it about me in some way?

If it's something that we disagree
about and that has implications on who

I am, well now that ups the level of
difficulty here, or should you be here?

Do you deserve to be here?

Are people like you supposed to be here?

Well, now we're upping the difficulty
because it's about identity.

And the third level of difficulty is
the outcome of this going to impact me.

So if you and I have to share the ice
cream and you get to decide because

you have the decision rights and you're
gonna dictate what kind of ice cream

I eat for the rest of my life, well
now something is on the line for me.

And I think that's why when power comes
into the picture, meaning who has what

levers of influence over outcomes,
and if the outcome of this is gonna

have really important consequences
for me, now, that's the hardest place

to feel, to step into a conversation
where I know that we disagree.

Now, you asked for three ingredients.

Those are three levels of difficulty.

They may be spices on the cake.

As the degree of difficulty gets
higher, it's more and more important

that I develop the capacity to have
those conversations because whether

or not we talk about it, you will
make a decision that will impact me.

Or say something about me or matter to
me, and so my opportunity to influence

that decision, and you'll understand
it and fill in blanks where you maybe

are missing something, is lost if I
don't develop the capacity to live

in that space and to use the skills
that I've spent time developing.

But that can go out the
window when I'm under stress.

That's the place where I think leadership
goes from good to great, if we're gonna

use an old phrase, which is that not
only can I have the conversations that

matter, but as they get harder, I can
stay in the place where I am showing up

as my best self to have them and using all
those skills that I've worked so hard at.

Matt Abrahams: So insightful, that
while many people focus on macro

ingredients, these are really micro
ingredients that make a big difference.

I love that they all start with the
letter I. Importance identity and impact.

And this notion of being able to
stay with this as you're having

the conversation and being able to
navigate through these degrees of

difficulty, really important advice.

And I'm gonna have to spend some
time thinking about how I personally

can help myself and help those I
interact with navigate through these.

Sheila, this has been
absolutely fantastic.

When we started the conversation,
I thought it was going to be mostly

best practices for how we engage
others, and not only did we talk about

that, but we really talked about how
do we engage ourselves so that we

can have these types of challenging
conversations and negotiations.

Thank you.

Sheila Heen: Thank you.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about conflict and
negotiation, please listen to

episode 144 with Amy Gallo and
episode 136 with Julia Minson.

This episode was produced by Jenny Luna,
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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