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Hosted by Toby Cryns and Kurt von Ahnen, the Agency Action Podcast (Part of the WP Minute Podcast Network) dives into the real-world ups and downs of running a WordPress agency. Each week, Toby and Kurt share open, honest conversations about the challenges and victories that come with building client relationships, pricing projects, finding the right tools, and growing a sustainable business.
Whether you’re just launching your agency or refining your systems, you’ll get practical insights from two agency owners who live it every day—along with stories that remind you you’re not alone in this wild WordPress world of global teams, AI disruption, and constant change.
Follow the show and explore more at TheWPMinute.com/podcasts
Toby Cryns (00:01.976)
Hello everybody, welcome to another exciting week of Agency Action. This is the Agency Action Show with Toby and Kurt. I'm Toby, I'm here with my partner Kurt. AI is invading everything it seems like, especially our conversations. What can an agency do? Maybe they're a WordPress agency, maybe they're a different agency that does marketing or Google, I don't know.
How are you looking at this? How can you diversify or shift gears and protect yourself from this AI invasion?
Kurt Von Ahnen (00:39.629)
I actually have been down this rabbit trail for a little bit, Toby. And I do a lot of business consulting in and out of the WordPress space, specifically Power Sports, just to be really clear with people. And in last week's training session, we identified two different dealerships that just by tweaking a process, not by reinvesting in equipment or hiring new people,
but just in tweaking a couple of processes are able to add, you know, over a million dollars of revenue to each of their stores in the coming year. And it really got me thinking about agency space because I talked to people on post status quite a bit, you know, in chats and stuff and people are like, well, I don't know about this or I don't know about that or a customer approached me, but I only work with nonprofits and like people are saying these weird limiting things about their agencies. And I'm like, why are we leaving money lying on the floor?
Like if we run the agency, if we run the business, we determine what we do, what services we offer and how much they cost. So why are we letting AI squeeze us out when in reality there's an entire, not just a vertical, but like a column of verticals that we can cash into.
Toby Cryns (01:50.85)
You know, it's interesting as you said that I've heard this forever, that statement of I'm talking to other agency owners and they're like, I'm like, why aren't you doing this? They're like, I can't do that because insert thing here. And this has been said to me for 20 years, like, and I can see why you might not want to do it, but we're not talking about want, we're talking about how do you survive? And I've heard that so many times, I can't do that. That's not what I do.
Kurt Von Ahnen (02:04.057)
You ready?
Kurt Von Ahnen (02:19.341)
Yeah. Yeah.
Toby Cryns (02:21.388)
What would my customers say if I did that?
Kurt Von Ahnen (02:26.307)
There's some work I don't want. So I'm gonna be very honest, right? Like, so I'm the hypocrite in the room right now. There's some work I don't want. If I'm talking to a client and I see these yellow or red flags going up, I'll be the first one to say, hey, this is not a great fit, right? Let me refer you to somebody that this might be a better fit for. And I'll refer them to someone else in my network, right? So again, I wanna be clear. I don't wanna be the hypocrite in room. I wanna be honest, but.
It's not generally because of the type of job or project it is. It's usually because of the type of client that it is. Like I know that the communication structure is not going to fit my process, or I know that their budget doesn't align with what our fees are going to be. At some point, we became an expert in certain things, and we charge accordingly. So maybe they need someone that's at a different level to provide the service because it's more entry level. So all that on the table.
I don't turn down the work because of the type of work I used to and that was a mistake. For instance, I had a customer. I built them an entire beautiful website in WordPress. We started to work on some of their marketing stuff. They realized their business was scaling faster than they were ready for, which is great news. So they hired a marketing professional. When they hired that marketing professional, that marketing professional said, I'm much more comfortable in Squarespace than WordPress. I think we need to convert you to Squarespace.
And before I knew it, I had lost a client. Now I had already, I mean, lost a client. Did I lose a client? I already did the job and got paid for it, right? But they took the project and converted it to Squarespace. Probably what I should have done was said, Hey, I'm willing to work and coach your marketing person to get them up to speed and how this website works. And then I could have sold, you know, coaching and tutorial time, right? Or I could have said, we could have that discussion about exchanging your content for Squarespace.
In fact, we're the agency to do that migration for you. And I could have been paid all over again, but I blew it. Like I let the opportunity slip.
Toby Cryns (04:27.374)
Mm-hmm.
Similarly, I have two designers on my team and I'm pushing them. A lot of our projects, we had a project come in the other day. Let's just start here. We had a project come in, a client, an existing client's like, hey, do you have any ideas to improve my homepage? I had a call with him. go, got lots of ideas. And what I'm pushing, so I asked my design, one of my designers, was like, how much will it cost to rethink their homepage? And he gave me a budget of,
Kurt Von Ahnen (04:48.15)
Yes!
Toby Cryns (04:59.608)
Let's say 10 grand. That's the budget I got from design and development. going, we, needs to be two grand max. This is like my gut reaction. This client will not approve that, but he might approve two grand. And so I'm now going back to my designer. saying, I don't know what your current process is, but bring AI into the picture and get me three designs in one hour.
Right now, like three prototypes. Yeah. Cause I need something I can pitch the client, but not even prototypes. Like I need to pitch them because for a two grand budget, let's say it's whatever it is, but like, there's not much, we don't have more design time built into a two grand budget. need to go straight to dev basically. So you need, you designer need to adjust your tooling to get me this mock-up in an hour or two, instead of 10 to 20 hours. and you know,
Kurt Von Ahnen (05:29.827)
Well, three prototypes. So we should be clear, like three prototype designs.
Toby Cryns (05:59.127)
You, this is your problem designer, not my problem. This is yours to solve.
Kurt Von Ahnen (06:04.985)
Yeah, I, you know, I run into that when I try to hire, when I try to hire stateside, I run into that where a customer has a request. I farm out the request to a certain spectrum that I consider my team and people stateside will be quoting me $2,500, $3,000, $5,000. And then my dude offshore who speaks English phenomenally and writes very well, right? Um, says, oh yeah, I can do that for you for a couple of hundred bucks, Kurt.
And then I can have it done in two days. And I go, OK, like it's really hard to. So so when you tell me, you know, you got a bid from an internal source for ten thousand dollars to rebuild a home page, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are going to go, what kind of home page was that? Right. Like it's going to be a big deal. But we should clarify.
Every use case is different. And so there could be a very involved project or lots of moving pieces inside this, this, this thing. So you got, before you listen to something and judge just on a number, you should know that there's probably lots of factors involved in how that pricing would work out. Now this drives me down to something a little more interesting and maybe a little more controversial for this particular show. Toby, I already mentioned Squarespace, but let's be honest, man. Drupal.
There there's people that make a living in Drupal. There's people that make a living in Joomla. There's people that make a living with Squarespace and Wix. I just had a potential client whose original website is done in Webflow. I had another potential client. It was a referral from somebody. my goodness, it wasn't a referral from you, was it? I think it was. There's a house in Colorado using Duda.
Right? So this Duda website gets sent to me and the guy's like, I need to redo my website. And I'm like, where did this come from? and I guess it's popular. I don't know. Right. My, my agency doesn't do it. But then I asked myself, why are people, why are agencies using these tools? Cause these are products that I've seen created by other agencies. And so if the agencies are using these tools, well, what are their margins look like and what are their costs look like? And, and our customers paying more or less in that space.
Kurt Von Ahnen (08:14.745)
Because I recognize that as soon as I go into the WordPress space with a lot of clients, instantly everything's customization. Whereas in a lot of SaaS platforms, it's like fill in the fields and hit publish. So where do we really want to be and where do those best margins come from? And from an agency perspective, do I need to be more open to these other platforms, even if it's only 10 or 20 % of the workflow?
Toby Cryns (08:39.176)
Or I love what you're saying. Cause what if we shifted our perspective as agency owners and said, we're not customizing WordPress. We're going to cut because our clients are very familiar with SAS products where you're, very boxed in, whether it's Squarespace or we're at Wix. Like, no, you can't do that. Like you just can't like you're stuck and you, they live with those limitations. So there's a million people on Squarespace that are living within that limitation.
Kurt Von Ahnen (08:52.738)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (09:07.79)
We could set similar limitations as agency owners within this price point. You get these limitations and they're very similar to the WICs maybe, or maybe they're different, but like, I think like, this is another thing, like, as we talk about, I couldn't possibly set that boundary with our client. like, I don't know. I think I could, like, I think I could get really, yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (09:28.097)
I think you could. I think you could. We have a commoditized startup special at Manana No Mas. It's very commoditized. It's you're going to buy the hosting package. You are going to use our AI powered builder to build your page. Right. And what you get is what you get. Like, yeah, you can change the text. You can change the images. I mean, as a website owner, like you could do, obviously you could do that. Right. But we're not going in and adjusting pixels and margins. And we're not doing that. It's
that the AI tool scopes the site, builds the site in WordPress, you so it's basically home page, services page, about us page, contact page. We put in a certain array or menu of plugins, right? And we configure those for the client. So we say your CRM is in place, your forms are in place, your LMS is in place. Here is a tutorial session on how to use those extra tools we've added to this commoditized startup package. It has a price.
And that's it. And then anything that they want to talk about, you know, upgrading, changing, adding pages, you know, changing formats or, or customizing, we go, yeah, no, no problem. Our agency rate is X and based on the scope of this project, I would expect that to be $4,000 or $6,000 or whatever. Then we propose the additional changes, but it gets people started on a budget.
Toby Cryns (10:48.652)
Yeah. You know, yeah, there's something too baked into everything we're saying. It seems like more and more I'm talking to web developers who've been laid off and they're like, I'm, looking into becoming a plumber. And, and I'm like, great money, great money. There's always going to be work there. and there's a lot of trades like that. Like trades comes up a lot these days with AI. Yeah. And.
Kurt Von Ahnen (11:05.459)
Good money and plumbing,
Kurt Von Ahnen (11:14.275)
Sometimes you get a free truck.
Toby Cryns (11:17.464)
But what I was thinking was, and I, you had laid out before the call, you laid out all these alternate paths that are, you know, maybe tangential, but not separate from the web development. Like you've laid out email marketing, content writing, you know, pay per click on Facebook, TikTok. And by the way, you could be a Facebook pay per click expert. You could be a TikTok pay per click expert. You know, like,
Why not? Before you go to plumbing and go to two years of trade school, maybe you should learn pay-per-click on TikTok.
Kurt Von Ahnen (11:54.455)
Jonathan and I just interviewed a Facebook expert yesterday on the WP tonic. Her name is Lauren Petrullo. think she only takes in clients with a $20,000 a month or more budget for Facebook ads. So, I mean, she's probably getting four or five grand per client per month and she's running all these accounts. I mean, that is revenue folks. don't, I don't, the fact that we would build a website,
give it to the customer, turn our backs and walk away and leave that money on the table on recurring income basis is kind of blows my mind. Like if nothing else, we should be subcontracting people like Lauren to say, hey, if you can do this for four grand a month, I'll sell it the customer for five grand a month. I'm scraping off a thousand dollars a month for managing the account. I'll do the monthly meeting with the customer. All you gotta do is produce the results.
Toby Cryns (12:48.376)
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You mentioned that, you know, 20 grand a month minimum. was talking with a client today and I had no idea until this conversation came up this week where they're like, yeah, we're spending $60,000 annually in Google pay per click. like, you are, I had no idea you had 60 grand sitting around in a bank account.
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:05.101)
Yeah, and I'm worried about charging you Yeah, and I'm worried about charging you two grand for some upkeep.
Toby Cryns (13:12.172)
Yeah, right. Yup. There's Elias. Okay. Thanks, Elias. We're recording a podcast.
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:16.237)
Man, your hands got small.
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:20.729)
Cough
Toby Cryns (13:23.074)
Yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:24.313)
So I run into this a lot. I did a proposal last week, Toby, that was, you know, a couple thousand dollars for choice a, uh, 10 or $12,000 for choice B or $96,000 for choice C. And I know a lot of people listening to this show would go, Holy crud. How did he go from like 12 grand and 96 grand? And it was like, she found out that we would do video and voiceover work for her courses.
Well, that takes time. How much time is that going to take for, you know, 18 courses? And so we just added it up. We said, this is what we project for our time, for our expenditures, you know, add the multiplier on for our profits and margins. 96 grand. The numbers, the number, the numbers, the number. When I worked for Suzuki, they would pay 50 or 60 grand for one course to get made. So when we come in at 96 grand for a handful of courses, we're still a bargain, but I don't see other agents. Other agencies are going, AI is going to knock us out.
Toby Cryns (14:08.163)
Mm-hmm.
Toby Cryns (14:13.484)
Yep. Sure.
Toby Cryns (14:18.989)
Yeah
Kurt Von Ahnen (14:22.551)
And it's like, no, no, you don't need to have AI avatars making training videos. You can still make human in the loop training videos.
Toby Cryns (14:22.69)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Toby Cryns (14:28.898)
Yeah. Right.
There, what you just said, I was thinking we pitched two projects last week to a client. they're basically like, we need a form that submits somebody, you know, contact us form. And what we pitched them was, we can do this very cheap contact form on WordPress. And here's what it'll cost. Or we can, pulled a screen grab from a different site that we did, you know, maybe 20 minutes of research from a fancy form. said, we can build this for five X that cost. And they're like,
we'll do the five X one. And then similarly they go, they emailed us and they said, we, we need some mapping feature and we really like Airbnb's mapping feature. And you can imagine Airbnb is mapping is really fancy. Like you can search for all sorts of, and, and I go, it was similar. We're like, okay, there's this great WordPress plugin that has some sort of mapping and we can do that straight forward or for 20 X we can build that mapping feature. And they're like,
Kurt Von Ahnen (15:16.557)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (15:31.33)
think we want to do the 20X and we're still waiting on the final word. But I even told them, was like, I don't know if you need this, but it's a lot more. And they're like, I think we're going to do that. there's money on the table. it's, it's, it's, you can't, the thing that we're talking about building, particularly on a CMS like WordPress, you can't, it's really tough to do with AI still.
Kurt Von Ahnen (15:42.135)
Yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (15:53.963)
It is. It is. just, I want to try to encourage, did. I'm so, I literally, I had a different training session two weeks ago and through the training, was a 90 minute session and through the training, one of the stores on the thing goes, I said, well, based on your training, what's a gold nugget you would implement and see a difference in your store. And you're waiting here some kind of like, like whatever, right? dude says, we're going to sell nine more boats a month based on the training you just gave me. I said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, hold up. How much is a boat?
Right. And they go, well, it's 50 grand. I go, so you're telling me nine boats, 50 grand a boat, $450,000 a month in extra revenue. How many more salespeople do you need to hire? None. That's what the existing staff. How much more is this going to cost you in? No, we're going to save money because we're going to order more boats and get a discount on more boats. So you're going to make so you can make higher margins while increasing your revenue. And he goes, yeah, I go. So you're going to increase your store's revenue by six million dollars based on a 90 minute training session. And he goes, yeah, that sounds about right. Those numbers match.
And when I thought about the space we're in here, I'm like, how many people make like a membership website for a client and never even mentioned that they could do like, Hey, we'll create an extra email address, like support at whatever the email is. That'll be automatically format forwarded to our agency. And we'll take care of all of your membership support for you for 30 grand a year.
Like that's just free money. So now you get these responses that get sent to you. Like, please reset my password. Okay. Or I went to my dashboard and I didn't see the course I was enrolled in. Okay. Like you sign in, you become, you know, you switch user, become them. You've figured out, you email them back. You're making 30 grand a year to do that. Like that could literally be that simple of a line item that brings revenue to your agency. What I'm, what I'm tired of seeing, and I'm just going to be
Toby Cryns (17:22.158)
Right?
Kurt Von Ahnen (17:50.305)
honest, I sound like I'm ranting today. I don't mean to rant so hard. But I'm hearing people almost in a in a panic about things like, like I'm hearing some some backlash from the press comp event, where people are like, I thought there'd be more substance on like the how tos and it was more like, you know, talking about the industry or the state of WordPress or that and all the political stuff. And while that's all important, I think it's really important that people understand there's options to make revenue in this industry.
And I think a lot of people are just leaving money, just laying on the floor. You just got to pick it up.
Toby Cryns (18:22.934)
Yeah. And I think what you're getting at is a lot of agency owners and particularly small companies, like one to three person. Elias, please no. Sorry. My son's homesick and he's literally banging on drums behind me.
Kurt Von Ahnen (18:41.165)
Gotta love the drums, bro. Gotta love the drums.
Toby Cryns (18:42.91)
so you brought up selling a CMS support package. Like you already built the site, you know everything about it. They have maybe a hundred to a thousand people in the site that need passwords reset. Hey, we'll sell you that support service for X amount per year. But I also think like what other marketing services are on the table? email marketing, SEO, cause at the end of the day, we're most
Kurt Von Ahnen (18:58.552)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (19:10.05)
This is the conflict. Most people who build WordPress sites see themselves as developers when in reality they're a marketing function.
Kurt Von Ahnen (19:17.677)
Yeah. Yeah. And if we're in the agency space and we have commercial clients, these people don't want to be webmasters. Like I know it's an old term and people don't hear webmaster very often, but they didn't, they didn't wake up on Tuesday and go, thank goodness that I transitioned out of this company that I own to become the webmaster.
They want to, they want to be the plumber. They want to go mow the lawns. They want to go run the coffee shop. They don't want to think about the next blog topic that's going to drive traffic to their website. And so as agency owners, we could employ tools like write blogger or surfer and help generate blog content for people that help their SEO or help their content or keep them relevant in the space, help their domain authority. And we can charge for it and they're happy to pay for it because they don't want to do it.
Toby Cryns (19:48.983)
Mm-hmm.
Kurt Von Ahnen (20:08.375)
How many times do you build a website and the whole time you're building the site, they're like, how do I make changes? How do I update the heading? How do I add a blog post? And then you give them the website and a year later you signed in to check on it and nothing's changed.
Toby Cryns (20:08.59)
Mm-hmm.
Toby Cryns (20:20.856)
Yeah. Every time. How often.
Kurt Von Ahnen (20:23.097)
Yeah. So if you, if you create the service and you say, Hey, you know, you can, and it's easier to sell to an existing client than to get a new client. So a year goes by, you hit them up and you go, Hey, as part of our, you know, annual security and content reporting, blah, blah, blah. We know that you haven't made many updates to the site. You know, we do offer a service where we can help you with your content. We try to keep it affordable. Here's a package we're putting together for you. If this would make sense for your use case, let us know.
And even if you only closed 50 % of your clients on that, that's revenue.
Toby Cryns (20:52.782)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (20:56.652)
Yeah. I also think there's so much revenue. The tricky thing is kind of time and energy, like finding the time and energy to do that pre-meeting research to like look at their site subjectively and say, what are some things I can pitch them today at this annual call or monthly or quarterly call? Like what can I pitch them that would help their site? And what I'm finding.
since I brought on my sales guy is like, there's almost unlimited opportunities to pitch things that are way higher value than I ever imagined.
Kurt Von Ahnen (21:35.959)
We take care of a website for a race team and I love racing. So it's right in my niche, right? they're part of the Mazda cup series. They say they race Mazda Miata's and they put up a social media post about, I think they got a podium at a racetrack in Florida. So I literally took their picture, their post, put it into AI and said, they're at this racetrack. Could you use other external links about the event and build me
a relatable post. And it took two or three other posts from other race teams and combined all the information, gave me the layout of the track, what turn four does, what turn five does, who won, who had problems, put it all together. It linked the other teams as outbound links, which I thought was tremendous because now the team we're working with is actually helping to promote the competitions with sites, right? That's a good thing, by the way, in the racing world, right?
and then hopefully they pay back the favor and start outbound linking them, right? So hopefully that starts to happen. But I put the post up and I said, this is a draft, I need you to review it. If you like it, hit publish. And they were like, my God, how did you do this? Like it's been a year and a half, we haven't added a single post because we're too busy packing up trucks and fixing race cars and going from event to event. I said, well, this is a service we offer. We could do this for you on a regular basis.
Toby Cryns (22:53.912)
Mm-hmm.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:01.867)
if you want to subscribe to our services.
Toby Cryns (23:04.62)
And I think the tricky thing for the agency owner is you, if you're worried about AI taking your job and let's say AI is taking your job, literally, this is where you got to go. It's either this or plumbing. I, yes. however, there are plumbing situations where people will pay you any price to fix. If you show up right now.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:16.269)
Yeah. Electrical's cleaner. Electrical's cleaner. They just make fun of Sparkies on the job.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:35.051)
Any price right now right now we
Toby Cryns (23:36.31)
Yeah. Can you be here right now? I don't care what it costs.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:40.109)
We had a Right Now last month, in fact.
Toby Cryns (23:42.062)
Yeah, I've had them too. In fact, once one time I called the plumber at one of those, he shows up he goes, I don't do this work, but I know someone who does. Yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:44.951)
Well, Toby, I.
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:53.345)
You get them out here right now, so strap on some rubber gloves. We got some work to do. So I think we've really hit it. I mean, we didn't even get into all the topics, right? We talked about, we were going to talk about print services or marketplaces that you can help people get their products into. There's a whole vertical that does like go high level management. There's a whole vertical that does Kajabi management.
Toby Cryns (23:57.965)
Exactly.
Toby Cryns (24:18.115)
Mm-hmm.
Kurt Von Ahnen (24:20.417)
Like there's just so much opportunity there. And, I w when I, when I interviewed that lady that did the Facebook ad management, mean, all the synapses in my brain were connecting. I was like, how much opportunity have I missed? It reminds me of, and I know that we're, gotta watch the time. When I consulted a dealership in Albuquerque, a kid came in to buy a Ducati Panigale when they first came out. That's like the sport bike. It's the prettiest. It's the fastest. It's the most wonderful thing. He was young.
He looked a little raggedy, right? And so the sales team assumed that it would be a struggle to get them into the bike in the first place, right? So they get them into the bike, they get them financed and they don't even sell them a helmet. He had like an old helmet, puts on this old helmet and he rides away and they all pat themselves on the back and high five each other because they got this young kid onto this bike. The next weekend, I'm not even making this up, Toby. I wish I was. The very next weekend.
That kid showed up with a Valentino Rossi leather jacket, Valentino Rossi boots, Valentino Rossi gloves, Valentino Rossi helmet. He had all of the Valentino Rossi stuff. And if you're a power sports aficionado like myself, you know, I must be talking about like a decade ago, right? Had all the Valentino Rossi stuff. He probably spent $7,000 on gear and accessories. He bought an exhaust at Cycle Gear at it's an accessory store.
And the missed opportunity here was obviously, obviously the kids either a master thief or he had budget and the sales department assumed he didn't have budget and let the opportunity go. What's more is they didn't give the customer the benefit of what could have happened. They could have sold him the $7,000 in gear and they could have added it to the financing package.
And then he wouldn't have been out $7,000 right away or on credit card debt at 29%. Right. He would, it would have been on the loan with the motorcycle as part of the monthly payment. And so because they didn't take the opportunity to sell when they should have, they robbed themselves of revenue, but they also created a disservice for the customer. And I think as agencies, when we, when we create something for a client and then they go get
Toby Cryns (26:21.762)
Mm-hmm.
Kurt Von Ahnen (26:40.001)
a go high level expert for a CRM and they get someone else for pay-per-click advertising in Google. And then they get a Facebook expert and then they panic and hire someone third party for SEO optimization. They end up fragmenting, you know, their business and not, and we're not serving them correctly because we could have in-housed all of that and offered it as a cohesive, the well-communicated package rather than a fragmented effort.
Toby Cryns (27:09.506)
Yeah, love it. That is a great story. We're gonna end on that. I think there's like lessons abound just in that story. Love it. Kurt, you are amazing. Where can people find you to hire you, to chat with you, to share stories about life with you?
Kurt Von Ahnen (27:29.409)
LinkedIn is the best place to find me personally. I'm the only Kurt Von Ahnen on LinkedIn, easy to find. And then for business, is mañana no mas, mañana no mas.com. Toby, how about you?
Toby Cryns (27:41.656)
I'm also on LinkedIn. Last name is C-R-Y-N-S. First name is Toby. T-O-B-Y. I'm the only Toby Krein's on LinkedIn. Probably in the world, not only on LinkedIn. I'm also at themightymo. T-H-E-M-I-G-H-T-Y-M-O.com, where we sell SEO, websites, hopes and dreams. Thanks everybody for joining us. This has been Agency Action. Look forward to seeing you soon.
Kurt Von Ahnen (28:03.123)
and dreams. All right.