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In a world that feels increasingly chaotic, uncertain, and hard to make sense of, Realms of Curiosity with Sarah and Wendy offers a different kind of conversation.
Drawing from shamanic practice, psychology, and decades of firsthand experience with non-ordinary reality, Sarah and Wendy explore the deeper forces shaping our inner and outer worlds—from intuition and consciousness to deception, transformation, and the shifting nature of truth itself.
They don’t claim to have answers. Instead, they follow curiosity into the unknown—questioning, exploring, and inviting you to do the same.
Because in times like these, curiosity might be one of the most powerful tools we have.
Welcome to Realms of Curiosity. Listen in as two friends explore the mysteries of the universe through the lens of their otherworldly experiences.
Sarah:Hi, Wendy.
Wendy:Hey, Sarah.
Sarah:How are doing?
Wendy:I'm doing pretty good. How about you? Good. Yeah? Good.
Wendy:It's good to see
Sarah:The sun's out again, and it's 85 degrees. All is well.
Wendy:Oh, okay. Again, we're having opposite weather day.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:It's sunny here, but it's it's, I think it's about 20 degrees.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:I know.
Sarah:Big span there. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. So what are we gonna talk about today?
Wendy:You could just tell by the way we're dressed how different it is.
Sarah:Oh, I'm wearing cashmere, so I don't know.
Wendy:Oh, I couldn't I couldn't see the cashmere!
Sarah:Yeah. It's still chilly in my house from the nighttime. You know? Okay. So we're gonna talk about
Wendy:We we were wanting to explore how we actually journey, how we actually travel from this reality to this other reality, the dream time reality.
Sarah:The dream time reality. Yeah. So You call dream time. I don't call it dream time.
Wendy:What do you call it? Nonordinary reality.
Sarah:Ordinary reality. Yeah. Exactly. I personally have started to call it connecting with the bigger consciousness.
Wendy:Yeah. I mean, ultimately, the conclusion I've come to is that it is consciousness. To me, it's like pure consciousness.
Sarah:Pure consciousness.
Wendy:That realm that we go to.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:But I'm also describing it as dreaming. Like, I'm dreaming as but I'm awake. So that's why dream time
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Always made sense to me.
Sarah:Yeah. Lucid dreaming. Right?
Wendy:Mhmm. While we're awake
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Versus while you're asleep. That's usually what people are associating with lucid dreaming, I think, is is when you're aware that you're dreaming when you're asleep and having a dream.
Sarah:And do you think of lucid dreaming as different than journey consciousness?
Wendy:Not really anymore. No. I mean yeah. That I again, that's why I love the word lucid so much. Yeah.
Wendy:I don't know if I've referenced this before in our previous conversations, but it is one of my favorite words.
Sarah:Yeah. Lucid. Well, your podcast, Lucid Cafe.
Wendy:The other one. Yes. Lucid Cafe. And the name of my business, Lucid Path Wellness. Yeah.
Wendy:So so, yeah, this this other place, I think we touched on before. There's lots of different ways to get there.
Sarah:Mhmm.
Wendy:Just as a quick reference, a lot of people are probably now familiar with plant medicines being used, like Ayahuasca and Iboga and peyote and psilocybin and
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Depending on what region you live in, many other medicines. And then there's fasting, like going out into the wild without food and requesting a vision. And there's the holotropic breath work, which is so breathing techniques to get you there to basically hyperventilating.
Sarah:Basically hyperventilating.
Wendy:Yeah. And my understanding is whirling dervishes spin, so dancing.
Sarah:Like, whirling, dancing. What was the name of that Gabriel Roth? Was it Gabriel Roth
Wendy:who Yeah. That name sounds familiar. Yeah. Like, an ecstatic dance? Ecstatic dance.
Sarah:Exactly. Which you know, and that follows like, you start in a slow rhythm of dance and movement, and then you build into a, like, frenzy of movement and then back down again, which I've done many times, and I found it to be wonderful. Yeah? Oh, yeah. And I've done it blindfolded, which is an interesting way of doing it.
Wendy:Right. Did you get really bruised?
Sarah:No. Because there were people who were designed to make sure you didn't bash.
Wendy:Like bumper people! Like They were bumper trying to make sure that nobody bangs into one another. Window or That's a big responsibility.
Sarah:I've done it, and it's wonderful. You get equally as altered being the bumper person.
Wendy:Yeah. I guess you would because you'd kinda be reading
Wendy:almost like Aikido where you're sort of trying to perceive the movement before it's made and then be in the right place at the right time.
Sarah:It's really wonderful, and you have to move in a way that you're not interfering with what's going on with the person.
Wendy:Like the water.
Sarah:Like the water. Exact exactly. Yeah. You become the water. You're you're, like, moving in this very fluid way.
Sarah:It's wonderful. Really wonderful. Yeah. Gabriel Roth. I'm pretty 99% sure that that's
Wendy:Yeah. No. That that name sounds familiar.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. And and well, sound is part of that.
Sarah:Yeah. For sure.
Wendy:And and that's what you and I were trained with was using sound.
Sarah:Yeah. Drumming
Wendy:and loudening. Yeah, drumming, and it's a really monotonous repetitive drumbeat Yes. Or rattle beat, rattle rhythm.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:So it doesn't vary.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:And, yeah, my understanding is that you do four to seven beats per second and that that puts your brain into a dominant theta brainwave, which when you're asleep and in theta, you're dreaming. And when you're awake and in theta, you can vision.
Sarah:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So When I when I was doing my work with the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, all their workshops would begin with if you had a drum, so there would always be a lot of people who had drums in the three year program. Everybody had a drum.
Sarah:And we would we would go in a circle drumming really loud and singing just like like not
Wendy:Whatever.
Sarah:Necessarily. Yeah. Whatever. Just just very loud. And and so by the time you finished that, you were completely in an altered state as much as one would feel with a small amount of psilocybin or not the way one feels with ayahuasca, certainly, but the smaller doses of things.
Wendy:Have you done plant medicines?
Sarah:Yes.
Wendy:Yeah?
Sarah:Yes. Some experiences were wonderful and some experiences were really difficult.
Wendy:Yeah. That's what I've heard, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:When I was younger, so I came into my adulthood in the late early seventies. And so LSD was was a very happening event then for many people. Well, not for all people, but certainly for many people who were interested in consciousness and whatnot. And so I took LSD when I was younger, and that really and truly changed my life. And I believe it changed the lives of my generation.
Sarah:Because when you look at how people evolved, my friends and people I knew, etcetera, people who started taking hallucinogens went on a very interesting path. And then other people stuck with drinking, which was what people had done. And these people had no connection any longer. Those people drank, and these people were smoked weed and, you know, whatnot. So it was a very
Wendy:That's fascinating. Yeah. So, yeah, I could see that because the culture shifted greatly in the late sixties.
Sarah:Yeah. And so it was really a macrocosm and a microcosm of to that shift that was going on. And, you know, we we know so much about, you know, Woodstock and love and, like, all the stuff that started happening, the eastern philosophies that certainly the the Beatles and those people started to embrace. And it was such an interestingly wonderful time. And and for me, it was a really good way, although laced with certain pitfalls, a really good way to start shifting in my my own consciousness.
Wendy:Yeah. Well, if you think about like, you brought up the Beatles. We think about the the kind of trajectory of their music Woah. From the beginning till they broke up. Thanks, Yoko.
Wendy:And
Sarah:and for them too, there were not all great things that were going on in that in
Wendy:that No. But but that's I mean, it but but, certainly, they opened up wide
Sarah:Yeah. Exactly.
Wendy:To all kinds of creativity.
Sarah:Yeah. And I certainly went on to psilocybin in. But but many years apart, you know, there there was it was never like I was that committed to to that avenue, but then something would come along. And then as even in my very advanced years, the first time I took Ayahuasca, I was well into my sixties.
Wendy:Okay. So you did Ayahuasca too.
Sarah:Mhmm. I sat in ceremony, I think, five times. That's pretty
Wendy:very difficult. I've heard.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Very but very, very, very profound. You know, the the healing that can happen with Ayahuasca is extremely profound.
Wendy:But, anyway You're making me think about a recent interview I did with a mother and a daughter on on my other podcast, Lucid Cafe. Mhmm. Norma and Nisha Burton. What a lovely mom and daughter team. Anyway, so Norma is the mom, and she studied shamanism is I believe she's a psychologist.
Wendy:And so works in that realm, and her daughter, Nisha, learned how to lucid dream at a very young age because her mom, yeah, really encouraged her.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And she became a very gifted lucid dreamer. And so see, she works with people in that realm in helping them do that. And one of the really interesting things they were talking about was that that they were encouraging people to, before they try plant medicines, to really get to know their interior worlds.
Sarah:Good idea.
Wendy:Yeah. Because of what we call a bad trip
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Is actually rich territory It is. From a healing perspective. But if you shut down and you become afraid Yeah. Then you miss out on that, and then you label it this bad thing.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And if our culture was not so close to this deep interior work from a young age Yeah. Then you just imagine how plant medicines would just enhance your evolution. Like,
Sarah:it'd be
Wendy:it'd be brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. So I I really like that. And it and what I found over the years is that a lot of people are are going turning to plant medicines for this miraculous kind of after the medicine's out of my system, I'm healed, you know, that kind of thing.
Wendy:And what I've discovered working with some folks who've done some kind of psychedelic assisted therapies or or just had their own experiences is that the work really begins after the medicines out of your system. And then it's almost I don't know if I under I mean, I haven't really done psychedelics, so I'm just saying this from what people are describing, that you get a glimpse of what's possible sometimes in these experiences. And then you go back to your everyday life, and you're not that person or that possibility. And then you have to kinda work through all the shit that keeps you so that you can become that version of yourself.
Sarah:Yeah. I I have ended up working with a lot of people who have gone to Joshua Tree for or other places for Lick some frogs? Well, the yeah. There's those people, but mostly Ayahuasca experiences. And a lot of them come back with a with a very strong need for integration, and they end up coming to me, or they're my clients already.
Sarah:Then they come and they say, Let's work on integrating this. So we do it with shamanic journeying, going back to the experience and seeing what what is that and how does it affect your, like you said, your your daily life. You know, what do I do with all this, like, opening that happened in my consciousness, some of which might have freaked them out or, you know, they just don't know what to do with it.
Wendy:Yeah. Exactly. That yeah. That's, I guess, the point that Norma and Nisha were trying to make is that you don't really know what to do with it. Exactly.
Wendy:Yeah. No. That that's what they call it is integration. Right? It's the work that's done after the medicine's out of your system.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:So that's really cool. That's a cool approach that you have, that you journey with folks afterwards to help them integrate and jack back into the experience itself. Yeah. That's cool.
Sarah:Exactly. Exactly. So and I think journeying has the capability to help people heal all the things they're looking to heal or to open to what they need to open to, but it's so much more gentle. Right? It doesn't, like, take your consciousness and blast it out, and which is what LSD did.
Sarah:That's why LSD was such a, like, weird experience. You'd either have the most incredible, expansive, wonderful experience, or you'd go to hell for, like, twelve months. Yeah.
Wendy:You know? I wonder if a big part of it is that it's your logical mind is offline when you're having those experiences, and so you're just diving right into the unconscious. Yeah. And and whatever else, wherever else you go. And so it's like a you probably experience it as a loss of agency.
Sarah:You do. Yeah.
Wendy:For sure. And that's unsettling. Right? They talk about the ego loss, like your sense of self can disappear.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And that's a really frightening experience. And that's right. But so, like, the way we journey, it's a like a
Sarah:Gentle.
Wendy:A gentle on ramp, but you're you have to contend with your logical mind. You have to your your thinking self is still engaged. So that's what makes it a little more challenging is that, like with meditation, you have to find a place for your your logical mind to kind of be while you're doing this so it doesn't interfere because it wants to so badly.
Sarah:Yeah. It wants to I always tell people, don't analyze it while it's happening. Just let it happen.
Wendy:Mhmm.
Sarah:And then you can think about the meanings of things.
Wendy:Afterwards. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:Do you do that with sort of lay that groundwork for people as well in the beginning?
Wendy:Absolutely. I think it's really challenging, though, because we're so interested in understanding why that. Yeah. And what does that mean? And what is that trying to tell me?
Wendy:And so your brain just automatically gets there. It's it is a discipline.
Sarah:Yeah. For some people, it's easier, though. Like like, for me, when I started journeying, it was so easy because I'm such a visual person anyway. Like, I process the world in this kind of visual movie making way in my head. And so I would become so interested in the visuals of what was going on that I wouldn't have a need to understand it until after.
Sarah:And and I think certain a lot of people who paint or draw or write have a much easier time to to go there. Have you known people that that just find it almost impossible to journey?
Wendy:Yeah. Abs Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:What's been your experience?
Wendy:With with that is that they're trying to journey from their heads. Yeah. They're using their imagination and trying to kind of conjure up the stuff, but the stuff we're perceiving is there.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And we're discovering it is my experience anyway.
Sarah:I like that. I like the way you put that. Stuff we're perceiving is there. That's nice. Yeah.
Sarah:It's true. And and that's a really important distinct that's really important. I don't know that I've ever said it that way or put it that way, but I certainly will in the future when I have people who who have a hard time letting go and being part of that consciousness.
Wendy:Yeah. I mean, at some point, we can talk about the concept that the Hawaiians have around the three souls, that we don't have one soul, but we have three souls.
Sarah:Oh, yeah. That's right.
Wendy:There's a part of us that is perceiving, and that is not in our heads. Partway So there there's a soul that actually is the perceiver, and then there's another soul that is the thinker. Oh. And they're very autonomous. And and until you start to develop, and then they can all work together as a team, ideally, all three souls.
Wendy:So what's the third? The third is your higher mind.
Sarah:Oh, like that one. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. But most of us don't have much of a relationship with that part of ourselves.
Sarah:Well, when you start journeying, you do.
Wendy:Yeah. But but I'm just saying Yeah. Most of us don't have it. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:No. It's I love the way the Hawaiians have that kind of the concept of the self, how they describe it with these three souls. And, yeah, I think that would be a fun conversation to have because it's such rich territory. Super rich.
Sarah:Harner, we've referenced him before, Michael Harner, who started the Foundation for Shamanic Studies and core shamanism. I don't I don't remember there ever being that kind of notion that was brought into it. You know, there's certainly the three worlds, the middle world where we are now, upper world, and lower world. But I really like the idea of three souls. That's that's
Wendy:And I actually see a correlation between the three souls and the three worlds.
Sarah:I do too. Yeah. But it but the language was never
Wendy:Yeah. Well and there are other indigenous people. Hawaiians aren't the only ones that have a three soul concept. It's actually a little more common. And some some cultures look at it as two souls, and then there are ones who look at it as three souls.
Sarah:Which culture, for example?
Wendy:I can't remember. I was hoping you wouldn't ask me!
Sarah:And I knew it's funny. As I asked it, I knew you weren't gonna know the answers. Like, we had some kind of, like, mind meld there for a second.
Wendy:Anyway 'She doesn't know. Abort. Abort.'
Sarah:That's so funny.
Wendy:So getting back to journeying then, how would you describe to someone what you're doing? What's happening?
Sarah:Yeah. Good question. Well, the way I start with people is I explain that this is the middle world, and there are and then the upper world and the lower world. In the upper world and lower world, we are connecting so this is the foundation, to the best of my memory, how it is explained, and I don't wanna assume that my memory is perfect on this because
Wendy:it's been Good disclaimer. Okay.
Sarah:Yeah. And that's absolutely I don't want I don't want
Wendy:Oh, yeah. No. I know. We have to be careful. Absolutely.
Sarah:Yeah. So my memory is I did my training with the foundation, you know
Wendy:Long time ago.
Sarah:Years ago.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:So I might remember it wrong. So the way I explain it, this is the middle world, and there are a lot of realities in the middle world. You know, there's a lot of spiritual content in the middle world, some of which, in the Harner approach, is positive, some of which can be on the darker end of things. But in the Upper World and Lower World, the sacred garden realms, you will be able to connect with reliably compassionate beings who can help you to explore different aspects of consciousness.
Wendy:Okay.
Sarah:That's the gist of it. And, I mean, it's more elaborate than that, but I don't know. Does that is that
Wendy:So, yeah, you're describing your
Sarah:The cosmology.
Wendy:The lay of the land of where you're going when you going. Alter your consciousness and enter this Yeah. Other realm, this other reality.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:It's interesting because I was taught a little bit different than you.
Sarah:Oh, what were you taught?
Wendy:Even though Hank did study with Harner.
Sarah:Yeah. But, you know
Wendy:But then but then he got yeah. He morphed as he learned more about the Hawaiian tradition and then had his own experiences and stuff. And then I have also morphed my perspective. So the middle world, if you're journeying, you travel pair like, out horizontally, and you can access the dreaming of the universe is how I would describe it. So that means you can connect with the dreaming of planet Earth and any region on our planet.
Sarah:Wait.
Wendy:Dreaming of the so if this
Sarah:Who's dreaming it?
Wendy:That's a great question.
Sarah:Well
Wendy:Who is dreaming it? Who is the dreamer? Yeah. Well, the it's the dreaming. It's being dreamed into existence
Sarah:by Consciousness? By who?
Wendy:Well, it is consciousness.
Sarah:Yeah. It is.
Wendy:I haven't been able to answer that question, so I'm gonna say I don't know. But I suspect it's coming from the upper world. That there's a reality that is being dreamed into existence, a physical reality that we're all in where you can have lots of different experiences.
Sarah:So okay. Hold on. So it's similar to to mine but different again. So when I'm working with people, I tell them that in the journey state, when we go to the upper world or the lower world sacred gardens, we are connecting with the realms of infinite potential as opposed to the and this is not Horner. This is my own interpretation over the years.
Sarah:We're not we're not limited by our programmed mind, which which is I think
Wendy:lower and the upper worlds?
Sarah:In the upper and lower world. Yes. Okay. We're in the realms of infinite potential, which is ultimately consciousness, higher consciousness, as opposed to what we are limited by in the middle world, which is the programmed mind.
Wendy:Okay. And then also depending on what state of consciousness you're in. So if you're just in an awaking, like, a beta state where you're aware of your surroundings
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Then you are playing along with the laws of nature as we experience them in that state. So that means gravity and Yeah. Causes and effects and the experience of time and that kind of thing. Yeah. But then if you shift your focus to a different state, then you can experience the dreaming of the
Sarah:Universe.
Wendy:Of the physical universe. It will so anything in it. And you can connect with it and have a relationship with it Which is my
Sarah:realm of infinite potential.
Wendy:Which is I'm talking about still about the middle world. You can have a relationship with the region that you live in and all of the nature spirits who live in that region. Yeah. You can connect with the essence or the dreaming of a building, which is, like, when I do house clearings and stuff like that. I'm connecting with the dreaming of that building and any imprints that might be there.
Sarah:Do you do a lot of that?
Wendy:Not a ton. It seems to come up in waves. Like, I'll get a bunch. Like, I just did a bunch a few months ago.
Sarah:I used to do them when I was in Vermont, and I did them a couple of times when I came out here to LA. And then I haven't done that in years and years and years.
Wendy:Well, I mean, work shifts. The work shifts.
Sarah:Work shifts.
Wendy:Yeah. So yeah. So and then also you can encounter. You don't think you like it? Maybe that's why.
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's where you can connect also with the aspects of people who have died, who don't know that they've died or are stuck in a certain Yeah.
Wendy:Situation and
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:What we would call ghosts.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And and you can work with them there and do psychopomp work.
Sarah:I don't do any of that anymore.
Wendy:Yeah. I don't Nah.
Sarah:Well, it's never my thing. I've trained to do that work. But
Wendy:I haven't trained to do it, but my helpers I mean, not in this physical reality, but in the Yeah. The dream time realities, my helpers, they'll do it. Anyway, so we get the dreaming of the physical universe, which is where we create our sacred garden in the middle world.
Sarah:Oh. Oh, really?
Wendy:So interesting.
Sarah:Interesting.
Wendy:So the middle world is, to me, from a consciousness perspective, if the dream time, if non ordinary reality is true pure consciousness, then the middle world would be represent our conscious mind, so what we're aware of. So there's nothing really super surprising there. It's like it makes a degree of sense Mhmm. When you perceive it. My understanding.
Wendy:Nobody else has to buy into this at all.
Sarah:No. Me too. You're right. Exactly.
Wendy:And then when you travel down with your consciousness, you point your focus downward and you go to the lower worlds, then that would be on the unconscious mind or the subconscious mind, and that's where things can get a little trippy. And I was taught that that is the dreaming of nature. So that means you can encounter any living creature, plant or animal that's ever existed, including all the elementals. So the the spirit of fire and water and air and earth, and that you can also connect with because it's also the collective unconscious, you can connect with the archetypes down there. So the the spirit of the shadow, the spirit of the mother, the spirit, all of those archetypal energies.
Sarah:Yeah. In the lower world, for sure. Very very much so. I don't I don't know that the foundation has that kind of language around it, but Mhmm. I certainly have evolved in that.
Wendy:And this is my interpretation after many years of Yeah. Yeah. Later between what I was taught and what I've experienced.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:Yeah. And but but I was taught that you can also encounter all of the fantastical creatures that you'd find in literature down there. So, like, dragons and unicorns and fairies and elves and gnomes, all of those creatures. Yeah. So, like, Alice's trip into Wonderland is, to me, like a classic lower world journey.
Wendy:Yeah. And it's trippy down there because it's unconscious, and you will jump bump into things that you're not aware of. So things can be surprising, and things may not make logical sense down there.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they don't make logical sense up there either, really, do they?
Wendy:Well, I meant as opposed to the middle world where things have a degree that they to me, they make it's like, oh, I am now in the dreaming of the building that I work in. So this is familiar. I know this place.
Sarah:That's super interesting. So you when you think of, say, manifesting that we talk about in all everybody talks about it all the time in, like, ways. But so if you're connecting to the dreaming, is that how you're manifesting? You're plugging into the dreaming it from your perspective?
Wendy:Through a shamanic lens let's see. My understanding is that it starts with an intention, right, which is your consciousness has an intention to create something
Sarah:Mhmm.
Wendy:Exactly. Or to have it have an experience or whatever.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And then we haven't talked about this yet, my kind of take on reality. So in the dream time, you would create this intention. Mhmm. And then that intention would travel into the energetic realm, which is a different place to me.
Sarah:In the real world.
Wendy:It's not in the dream time. It's separate from the dream time. The but they're interconnected. My understanding is that it would be kind of considered a shadow. The energetics would be like a shadow of the dream time or a reflection of it.
Wendy:And then in that quantum realm, and I'm not a quantum physicist, just to put that disclaimer out there. Don't understand.
Sarah:Part of this. I mean, it is, Yeah.
Wendy:I mean, but we all have a very limited understanding of what
Sarah:it Yeah.
Wendy:Very that all means. So there, it gathers shape and form, your idea, your wish. It pops out into the physical as an experience.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. That sounds really accurate. I've thought a lot about how do we manifest. And I know for myself, I've been around many people who say I'm a good manifester, and I think, okay.
Sarah:But for me, I really relate to what you're saying. Because when I'm envisioning something in my life, I can feel it starting to form, and then there's almost like this sense that I get of, like, boom. It's there, and I know that it's done. It's cooked now. And it's just it will happen or is happening.
Wendy:That's that's an important ingredient, I think, is that that level of confidence that it's cooked or it's done.
Sarah:It's a physical feeling that I get.
Wendy:It's like cool. That might be part of your special makeup that I don't think a lot of people have. Or is it just I don't have it. Yeah. Think manifestation is I mean, we could talk about that another time too.
Wendy:I mean, I think it's tricky.
Sarah:Oh, it's really tricky.
Wendy:Yeah. Especially if you really want something. It's something really important to you. I think it gets trickier.
Sarah:Yeah. It does get trickier. And Yeah. I'm not an
Wendy:expert on anything, actually, but definitely not an expert on manifestation.
Sarah:I think you're an expert on a lot of things.
Wendy:To be one on myself. Yeah. Working on that one.
Sarah:That was tricky.
Wendy:So the lower world unconscious, that's where healing can happen because that's where the wounding lives
Sarah:Yes.
Wendy:Is is in the lower world. Yes. And then the upper realm, so you travel up with your consciousness, is what I would call home. And to me, that's where we go when we die because that's where our higher higher minds live. Yeah.
Wendy:And there's nothing human about that place.
Sarah:No. It's interesting as I'm listening to you talking about it all. I very much agree with everything you're saying. And even though we have maybe different language on it or different you know, just different little words that we've inserted into it all with your Hawaiian background and my foundation background and but our own experiences, I think we've come to very similar locations.
Wendy:About the same things. Yeah.
Sarah:Same thing. Yeah. Different words, same thing. Same same levels. You know?
Sarah:So that's super interesting. I mean, when I when I begin journeying with people, I guide them on the first journey. And very often, it's to the lower world. Okay. And but I I guide them there.
Sarah:Like, they just have to close their eyes and envision. Because I've I have found people often get very, like, nervous. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't where am I going?
Wendy:Oh, really? That's funny. Okay.
Sarah:Yeah. And so I've have found it to be just let's do this, and then we go. And then they have an idea of what they're doing, and then they're not nervous about it.
Wendy:No. That sounds like a clever way to to combat that. Yeah. I've I've never done a guided a guided journey before. I mean, I do follow with Hank's the way I was taught with Hank, and we everybody starts with the same journey, which is creating the sacred garden in the middle world.
Sarah:Ah. Oh, interesting.
Wendy:And then that gives you access to the lower and upper worlds, and then also the garden gives you so much information about yourself.
Sarah:Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, interestingly, it's kind of what I've done. We start at the tree of life.
Sarah:So they close their eyes. They're at the tree of life. They see this enormous tree.
Wendy:In the lower world?
Sarah:In the middle world.
Wendy:Oh, okay.
Sarah:And it goes to the upper the tree has a stairway within it that goes to the upper world. It has a stairway that goes to the lower world. Okay. So it takes care of a lot of the the logistics. You know?
Sarah:Big forest, big tree, go up, go down. It's very simple. This is the middle world. If you want and we don't do the middle world for a long time because for a variety of reasons. But for the middle world, you go into the tree and through a door at the back.
Wendy:Okay. So So, like, the this sounds like the tree of life is sort of a gateway.
Sarah:A gateway. Exactly. And they always start there, and it gives them, like, a very secure feeling. And sometimes the tree can evolve and be more of a healing. You can put your hands on it and receive certain kinds of healing before you go if you're feeling kind of off in certain ways.
Sarah:So those are all things that I've just brought to it over the years that, you know, doesn't come from the foundation.
Wendy:Right. Right.
Sarah:It's just but Michael's perspective was that there were many, many levels in the lower world and the upper world.
Wendy:I think there could be. Yeah. So you could say upper worlds and lower worlds.
Sarah:Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea.
Wendy:Yeah. Because I mean, because I that's I will say that on occasion. I'll make it plural because
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:The more I do this stuff, the more I realize I'm just tapping into, like, this much of what is possible. I know. And I feel like a Luddite. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:So but It seems but I can also feel how hindered I am by my humanness in this. Like, I can feel my beliefs, my emotionality getting in the way of me busting doors open to to perceive even more.
Sarah:But don't you find the more you do this that, like, for me, I so I'm having my ordinary experience sitting here in Los Angeles, but I'm always connected to the other worlds. Like, they're there. Like, they're happening simultaneously.
Wendy:Do you know Yeah. It's it is like you can just sort of shift, and it's there. But it's interesting because I feel like my practice is changing a lot in ways that I don't even know what it's gonna end up looking like Right. In the near future. It feels like it's imminent.
Wendy:It's happening right now.
Sarah:I know. I have that same feeling.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:That's interesting.
Wendy:Yeah. Oh, okay. So we'll have to see where we end up. And I almost feel like, this is gonna probably sound a little fucked up, but, like, the the framework of shamanism, it might it might be something that is being peeled back.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And that I might even be getting away from that in the Yeah. In this transformation. That's just a kind of an intuition I have. But
Sarah:That that's the same as me for I don't know. Since COVID time, I've had that feeling of that peeling away. And I don't know exactly what it means, but it's all kind of blending into something that's really interesting. I don't I don't know what it means.
Wendy:Yeah. I'm excited about it. The last time I felt this way was when I was in graduate school and studying clin while. Yeah. Clinical psych.
Wendy:And I was as I was learning all this theory and stuff, and I was I was feeling like there's gotta be something more than this that can be there's gotta be a better way to be of service to people and Yeah. Like, beyond keeping us in our intellect. Yeah. And thinking about the way we feel.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And this is back in the nineties. Actually, early nineties. So and this was, like, preceding my first visionary experiences. So I think I was I was starting to get that leaning in that direction. Like, I was getting some some my inner world was being prepared for what was about to come, and I feel like that's happening again right now.
Sarah:That's really interesting. Me me too. And in the last six months, my tree of life has become electric.
Wendy:Oh, that's right. You told me about that.
Intro Voiceover:Yeah.
Sarah:And I regard that as, like, a real, like,
Wendy:that? Changing.
Sarah:Yeah. Something's changing. And it's, like, so powerful. It's like it crackles, and it's electric. And when I go into it, I become electric.
Sarah:And and so I'm crackling. And then I go out, and my upper world is no longer the way it was, but now I'm in this electric universe. And there are books written about the electric universe, which I think, I should read those books because something's happening here.
Wendy:You think you'll get an answer in one of those books?
Sarah:Well, maybe. Maybe? There might be some insight that that the people who wrote that have. I I don't know. But when I when I first found it, I thought, oh, electric universe.
Sarah:And then I googled electric universe, and I thought, oh, there's a lot of material there about the electric electric universe. You know?
Wendy:Not a brand new concept.
Sarah:But we are electric. I mean, when we die, if we happen to die, they they should Stop. But no. With electric
Wendy:I'm just kidding.
Sarah:I'm just Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. We are electric
Wendy:So stay tuned. Stay tuned. We'll see what comes. Maybe we're gonna turn into pod people.
Sarah:I don't know. I have a feeling whoever's listening to this at this point is thinking, who the fuck are these two people? Like, what are they talking about?
Wendy:Great question.
Sarah:I hope we don't sound like complete crazy people.
Wendy:Yeah. I'm kind of used to that.
Sarah:Sounding like you're crazy.
Wendy:Yeah. The possibility of sounding like
Sarah:a crazy person.
Wendy:Yeah. Well, we're in good company.
Sarah:We are in good company.
Wendy:Yeah. You and me.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Alright, pal. Well, shall we do this again next week?
Sarah:Shall do it again. What did we say?
Wendy:Conversation?
Sarah:We'd talk about next time. Manifesting. Maybe that's what
Wendy:We could yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:I mean, we don't meander our way through an hour. But, yeah, we did say we were gonna talk it's because it's an interesting subject. Okay. We have to go. Yeah.
Sarah:Good to see you.
Wendy:You too.
Sarah:Talk soon.
Wendy:Alright.
Sarah:Bye.
Wendy:Bye, Sarah.