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The Value Creation Mindset explores the decisions successful leaders make to create real, lasting value for their customers, teams, and businesses.
Hosted by A.J. Singh, each episode features candid conversations with founders, CEOs, and builders who have been in the trenches, unpacking hard-earned lessons on leadership, technology, strategy, and execution. No hype. No shortcuts. Just clear thinking, first principles, and practical insight from people who have actually built things that work.
Ahamd - No Intro
[00:00:00] Speaker 3: What if the best way to, uh, to, uh, grow a business is to deliberately become really good at just one thing? Hi, I'm A.J. Singh. Welcome to The Value Creation Mindset. Today, I am joined by Ahmad Jodeh, the, uh, founder of Atlas Core of Engineers. Ahmad has, has built a highly specialized industrial automation business around a simple idea: go deep rather than broad.
[00:00:27] His team focuses exclusively on Siemens PCS7, using that expertise to work faster, build better tools, and create long-term value for customers operating in environments where, where, uh, downtime can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour. Ahmad, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:29]
[00:00:34] Ahmad: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:00:37] AJ: Now, you've deliberately built Atlas around a very narrow specialization. Yes. Why'd you decide that that's the best thing for you to create the most value f- for your customers?
[00:00:52] Ahmad: Um, well, I, I guess it came from, uh, experience. Um, I, I started as a end user. Uh, I was an end customer. Uh, and then after several years of being an end customer working with contractors, um, I, I jumped the fence and, and was working as a contractor for, uh, with what's called in the industry a system, systems integrator.
[00:01:14] Um, working for that systems integrator, we did, uh, any-- basically anything that, that fell in our lap. And, uh, we went to, uh, sites where I had no experience with the platform, no experience with the industry and, and, you know, I did the best I could. But I always knew that, that, uh, it, it was not the best possible work that could be done.
[00:01:39] And even when moving, uh, between those other systems and, uh, PCS seven, where I did consider myself an expert, you're jumping back into it, uh, took time, which cost money, um, and, and impacted quality. So when I was doing these projects in other platforms, um, I kind of looked at the quality of work that I could deliver, um, and the quality of work that was delivered by others doing the same thing.
[00:02:14] And, and I could definitely see that there was always an impact to, to switching platforms. So I decided the best thing you can do is not switch platforms, um, and just absolutely focus on one thing. And at the time, honestly, I didn't realize that that was such a revolutionary idea. It, it just seemed like the absolute right thing to do.
[00:02:39] Like it seemed like the only way to do it right. So that's what I did. And, and it was-- wasn't quick before or it wasn't long before I, I found out that, um, that's just not how most people do it. So, uh- No, I get it ... I think it has served us very well. I think we are very good at what we do, and, um, and it shows in the quality of work, the speed of, of the, the work we can deliver and, um, and the depth of our expertise in the platform, uh, allowing us to execute just the most complex projects, uh, without batting an eye at
[00:03:15] AJ: So, so if, if I can summarize, I mean, the, the...
[00:03:18] This is a classic challenge anyone in a technical field faces. Do you become a generalist or do, do you become a specialist? Right. Right? Yeah. Right. And I, I... You always start somewhere. Our origin stories are, are somewhat, are, are somewhat similar. I mean, I, I cut my teeth on what it takes to build enterprise software systems, um- Sure
[00:03:37] right out of college at Motorola. So at one point I had, um, literally three pagers on my belt and a cell phone, and all I was missing was like the, the old- Date
[00:03:47] Ahmad: yourself ... cell phone,
[00:03:48] AJ: right? Yeah, yeah. It was a u- was a utility-
[00:03:50] Ahmad: Yeah ...
[00:03:51] AJ: phone. And, you know, when a system goes down at 3:00 in the morning and you're the guy who lives half a mile
[00:03:58] Ahmad: away-
[00:03:58] AJ: You're the
[00:03:58] Ahmad: guy
[00:03:59] you're the one who gets- Yeah ... the call. So I, I- Absolutely ...
[00:04:03] AJ: I get it. And, and I, I guess that's something that probably you and I share in that, um- Delivering quality and value is, is obviously a good thing, but where it gets really interesting is, is where you have to deliver it in, in, in a very uncompromising environment.
[00:04:22] Where again-
[00:04:23] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:04:23] AJ: y- if a system's down for an hour, that's the difference between success or failure or just lighting vast amounts of money on a fire. Right. So I, I-
[00:04:32] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:04:32] AJ: respect that. On the, on the, um, choice of going all in on Siemens versus any other platform-
[00:04:40] Ahmad: Yeah ...
[00:04:40] AJ: what is it about that particular choice which you found over the long run to be the right bet compared to the others- Oh
[00:04:52] out there?
[00:04:53] Ahmad: Yeah, so that's, that, that actually was, uh, an interesting choice. So, um, while working for the other system integrator, I w- I did get exposure to a lot of other platforms, and I did see a lot of value in some of those other platforms. I also saw a lot of junk, you know? Um- For sure ... and, um, my, my background was in PCS7, and that was a deliberate choice.
[00:05:15] Uh, w- when I was working as an end customer, we did, uh, select the platform that was going into, uh, the plant that we were building and, and I was able to, to be that person who made that decision. Um, so I had, I had already chosen PCS7 over the other platforms once before. Um, but I knew that that is, um, not going to be the highest volume, uh, application.
[00:05:42] S- so within the United States, um, Allen-Bradley has a pretty strong grip on the market. Um, it is basically only in North America that they have that stronghold. Globally, Siemens dominates, um- You know, two to one against everybody else. But, you know, we live in the United States, so I, I had to make a decision to, uh, turn my back on what is the most popular platform in the country and, and go with, uh, what I thought was the best platform.
[00:06:13] Uh, and I had, I had operated within every one of those programming environments, um, distributed control system or PLC, programmable logic controller. Uh, I, I worked on, um... I mean, you name it, I, I, I got to touch it, and I really just felt that PCS 7 was the best system out there. And there, there are comparable systems.
[00:06:33] I'd say there's, uh, Emerson's DeltaV would be the only thing I would think even holds a candle to PCS 7. But, um, I was an expert at PCS 7, so I went that way. And, uh, yeah, I have no regrets 'cause I, I feel like it is the best system and, and it has allowed us to deliver just the absolute best end product for the customer.
[00:06:52] And when you see the difference in a Siemens PCS 7 system versus your typical Allen-Bradley system, I mean, the, the reason for Siemens' dominance in the global market is obvious. And it's difficult to convey that to, to customers because within the United States, most people have Allen-Bradley experience over everything.
[00:07:11] It's what they want, it's what they know, it's what they're comfortable with. Uh, and it's difficult to push a platform that people aren't familiar with for what is essentially the nervous system and brain of their multimillion-dollar, potentially multi-billion dollar facility. Um, but you know, ultimately, when people give us that shot, we always, we always come through.
[00:07:34] AJ: No, I, I, I have no doubt. I mean, that, that kind of commitment to solving problem for customers, and again, you know, any good engineer wants to solve a problem once and for all, not again and again and again and again. Right. And so finding a platform, a technology, an approach, a process, the right people, the right mindset to let you do that is sort of a natural thing.
[00:07:56] Ahmad: Absolutely.
[00:07:57] AJ: But the, the... There is an interesting question because at some point, you know, there's an old saying that when you get your bachelor's degree, you think you know everything. When you get your master's degree, you think you know nothing. And when you get your PhD, you realize nobody else knows anything either.
[00:08:20] Ahmad: Right, right, right. Exactly.
[00:08:21] AJ: Yeah. And- There's just too much knowledge to know it all. There's too much. So at some point you need to make some choices, you know? I mean- Yeah ... I, I, on, on, on our side, we decided early on to focus on, on the Microsoft tech stack, which was again, um, very unusual, uh, in my former life.
[00:08:42] Uh, so when I left Motorola, I went to a consulting firm and I was servicing clients in a number of different things, and I was the Microsoft guy in, in mostly a, um, a, a Linux centric, uh, you know, open source sort of sort of company. So I was the odd- I see ... man out. And I, I remember having a conversation with, uh, kind of a lunch and learn with other members of the crew, and everyone was talking at the time of which flavor of Linux they liked the best for-
[00:09:14] for, you know, building- Yeah ... systems. And I brought up Windows Server. And I-
[00:09:21] Ahmad: Oh man, you were probably castrated for that ...
[00:09:24] AJ: there was laughter and cackling all around the, uh- I'm
[00:09:28] Ahmad: sure ...
[00:09:29] AJ: table. So there's always a little bit of religion mixed into technology choices, and Ahmed, you know, there's always a bit of religion mixed in with technology choices.
[00:09:43] And, you know, it, it's the... It becomes hard at some point to be objective because you, you have gained expertise in one technology set, and you know that very well. And, uh, it's what enables you. It's, it's, it's the combination of, of that tech stack and your own experience with it and, and the depth of your knowledge that enables you to really create maximum value.
[00:10:08] So it's a choice, and you can't be everything to everyone, right? So I, I- So, so getting back to what you were saying, how much g- how much of the success, and, and this is a tough question, but just giving you your kind of gut assessment. How much of the, of the, um, success that you've had would you attribute to your, to, to your choice of Siemens versus just the fact that, that you had mastered this platform?
[00:10:42] Because no doubt you could make anything succeed reg- re- uh, regardless of platform choice, but it does take expertise in a particular tech, i- in a particular tech stack to make something work. And so-
[00:10:57] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:10:57] AJ: some of the value is inherent in the pluses and, and, and the minuses of a technology stack choice.
[00:11:04] Right. The rest is a determination and decision to make it work one way or the other. Yeah. What have you found is the balance there?
[00:11:15] Ahmad: Well, I, I mean, I'll tell you that, that the choice of Siemens, uh, over the, the more popular platforms was going against the current, right? It was going against
[00:11:23] AJ: the ... Mm-hmm.
[00:11:24] Ahmad: It did, it did make it harder initially, you know, trying to find customers, um, trying to get that customer base, establishing a reputation was much more difficult, um, when there's just, uh, less customers, uh, to choose from, right?
[00:11:40] And I received many phone calls, you know, like, "Can you do this? Can you do that?" And it's hard to say no, even if I know in the back of my mind, like, I, I can do it. I can do it. Uh, but that's not what I'm the best at. Yep. You know? And we wanna stick to what we're best at, and we wanna be the best and deliver the best possible product.
[00:11:59] So you have to turn away projects, and in the early days of a company, that is really hard. And I've heard people say, you know, you'd never say no, you know, when you're a startup or a small business. You just never say no. But that, that's, I- Well,
[00:12:14] AJ: you have
[00:12:14] Ahmad: to ... I thought that was, I thought that was a bad idea, you know?
[00:12:18] I, I thought saying no was, was how we stay focused and, and, um, you know, become what we've become, which, you know, is an authority in what we're really good at. Uh, but it, it took a, a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, self-reflection, you know, to-
[00:12:33] AJ: Well, yeah ...
[00:12:34] Ahmad: to be like, "Ugh, I gotta turn away what would probably be a very lucrative project," um, potentially an easy project to
[00:12:42] and, and just say, "No, that's, that's not what we, that's not what we do. We, um, you know, we do this, and that's what we're gonna stick to." So, um, it was, it was difficult and, um- Yeah, I think it, it did pay off though. Um, staying focused allowed us, allowed me to scale a team that was focused, um, allowed my team to develop the skills in PCS seven rather than in multiple platforms.
[00:13:10] Mm-hmm. And that just continues to pay dividends. I mean, every project you learn something new, you learn something new, you learn something new. Instead of I did this project and I forgot those things 'cause I was working on a different platform here and n- now I gotta go back and relearn that. Instead, it's just compounding instead of going in circles, and that is just paying dividends.
[00:13:31] So yeah, I'm, I'm extremely happy with the decisions I made there, but it was tough 'cause like you said, you know, you, you know you can do it. Yeah. You just gotta choose not to. When, when you're a small business owner and, and you know you got, uh, a payday looking you in the face, it's, it's tough. But yeah.
[00:13:50] AJ: You know, I mean, you have to find some way to make payroll, but-
[00:13:54] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:13:54] AJ: it's, it's too easy to get distracted and-
[00:13:58] Ahmad: Right.
[00:13:58] AJ: Right, exactly ... just become optimistic. And- Yeah ... unless you've got that, that iron spine, say, "No, this is my thesis, I need to stick, I need to stick to it," otherwise- Right.
[00:14:09] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:14:09] AJ: I mean, the other thing is it's easy to just get lost in the mix.
[00:14:12] Yeah. I mean, I, I, I-
[00:14:14] Ahmad: Absolutely.
[00:14:14] AJ: Absolutely ... I'm pretty sure I'd be a much richer man if, i- if I just, if I just went into the consulting space and stayed there rather than- Yeah ... building a platform company. Um- Sure ... it was, uh, at, I, I remember a long time ago, we were in our early days, we were talking to a potential investor.
[00:14:33] We explained to him what we were doing and he said to me, "AJ, w- why are you doing something so hard?" You know? A- and, and he brought up at the time, this was- Yeah ... in the early 2000s. He's like, "Look, look at these guys, you know, they're making cellphone ringtones out of their garage, and they're- Yeah ... already getting $2
[00:14:51] Ahmad: million a year."
[00:14:51] Yeah. Yeah. And
[00:14:51] AJ: I thought about
[00:14:52] Ahmad: that. Where's that now?
[00:14:52] AJ: Well-
[00:14:53] Ahmad: Where's that now? Do people do that anymore? Well,
[00:14:56] AJ: I, I don't know. I don't think
[00:14:56] Ahmad: so. Yeah.
[00:14:57] AJ: Yeah. I don't think so. But it's like I
[00:14:58] Ahmad: wanna
[00:14:58] AJ: do something more than building ringtones. Right. But- Right. Yeah, 'cause, uh, yeah
[00:15:05] well, you know, the, the, the y- you, you have mentioned multiple times you learn something new from every experience, from every customer, and that learning You have to find a way of compounding it.
[00:15:22] Ahmad: Right.
[00:15:22] AJ: And if it's too diffuse, you can't. It just goes- Exactly ... into the ether and you forget. Exactly, yeah. And so- Yeah
[00:15:29] you know- Yeah ... keeping that tight focus. What have you been doing to kind of institutionalize some of that learning and, and work on knowledge- Oh ... transfer in between your, your, your team members, making sure you don't forget be- because there's... Well, that's, that's, that's a area that I'm particularly interested in
[00:15:51] Ahmad: Yeah, in- internal documentation and SOPs is one thing, but what, uh, what I think pays the, the greatest dividends is, is automating it.
[00:16:01] Uh, obviously, as you document whatever automation does, but, um, if there's a task that we do over and over and over again, then we automate it, you know, and that, that pays the greatest dividends. And then y- then you obviously have to train on how the automation works, and then I think where we're at now is, uh, beyond that, where people are starting to take these automations and say, "Oh, you know what?
[00:16:24] This also should do this, and we can improve it by this." And then you gotta pore through the code, and then you learn so much there, and then, uh, you know, that's, that compounding, like you said, is, is, uh... You know, we're, we're an automation company. We should automate things, right? So- Well, well, what
[00:16:38] automating our-
[00:16:39] AJ: Yeah.
[00:16:39] Ahmad: Yeah. Yeah, automating our repetitive tasks, um, has, uh, is really paying dividends. And then, you know, with the advent of AI, you know, AI has not really come into the industrial automation space. You know, things where, um, like you said, downtime can be measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour.
[00:16:58] But in addition, where you can kill someone, um, you know, with, with a misplaced, uh, one or zero, y- you... People have really been hesitant to, to incorporate AI. But where we've been able to use AI is in helping us develop these automation tools that have accelerated our ability to do the programming. Uh, you know, the AI allows us to program at levels, uh, and build our au- our internal automation at levels that we were, uh, incapable of previously, and, and, uh, that has accelerated our, our ability to do that, and, uh, that's, that's been a, a great tool.
[00:17:36] Uh, I mean, eventually the AI will come and replace us all, m- and I'm, I'm, I'm hoping for that day so I can get to go home, but until then, we, we, uh, we've been able to leverage it. I think
[00:17:46] AJ: we've... Yeah, no, I mean, I think we've seen that movie or various movies. None of them end up working out so well, but, uh-
[00:17:54] Ahmad: No,
[00:17:54] AJ: no
[00:17:54] you know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. I'm, I, I'm not a good predictor of the future there. But the-
[00:18:00] Ahmad: Yeah, I, I actually just had a, a friend tell me that we're in a Venn diagram between, uh, Terminator, The Matrix, and Idiocracy. We're right in the middle there. If you've seen all three of those movies, then you- You know what?
[00:18:12] You- ... you understand ... there's an
[00:18:13] AJ: amount of overlap, isn't there?
[00:18:15] Ahmad: Yeah. There is. That's where we're at. Yeah. Right. Right in the middle. I,
[00:18:20] AJ: I don't know. I, I, I, I always go back to, um, uh, the original 1950s, The Day When the, Where the Earth Stood S- Stood Still.
[00:18:29] Ahmad: Right. Yeah.
[00:18:29] AJ: You know, maybe we need a Gort. We need a-
[00:18:32] giant humanoid robot, but that is willing to kill us all in order for us to all come to our senses. Yeah. No doubt everyone working on that has that e- exact intention, right? Just like-
[00:18:45] Ahmad: Right, right.
[00:18:45] AJ: Sure ... 19- I'm sure ... very noble intention.
[00:18:48] Ahmad: Right.
[00:18:48] AJ: Yeah. Right, right. I, I, um- Capturing knowledge and automation though, uh, I mean, that's been something that, uh, I embraced, we embraced very early.
[00:18:55] Be- be- because look, you can have SOPs, uh, documents and references and prescriptive architecture guides and instructions- Yeah ... and that's all lovely- Whatever, yeah ... right? And it's, it's good to have that, that, that reference material and in the software construction space, you know, th- there was all that stuff abounds, lots of books.
[00:19:18] Hey, here's a- Yeah ... right way to implement a service-oriented architecture. Lovely. Wonderful. Right. Um, works great in theory. The, the issue is that when you apply just a modest bit of pressure to actually build- Oh, yeah,
[00:19:32] Ahmad: all out the window. Yeah,
[00:19:33] AJ: yeah ... and actually deliver, it's all out the window. Yeah. All the consistency-
[00:19:37] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:19:37] As soon as there's a tight deadline ... all outcomes are all... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:40] AJ: All of the promise of a thoughtful architecture is gone. Ah, right, right, five, just do it.
[00:19:46] Ahmad: Right. And- There's no time, just get it, let's push it through the door, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:48] AJ: Well, well, the only way to deliver on the promise of sound architecture is automation.
[00:19:54] Right. There is no other way in, in- Right ... any kind of practical sense. So, so in a very similar way, that's the genesis of Modularis. That's why we started Modularis. We s- we got tired of doing the same thing over and over again. Let's automate this. Let's- Right ... generate as much of this code as we possibly can.
[00:20:14] Let's build some bulletproof libraries. So again, why sh- why, why should I do this over and over again? Even though from a business model stand- standpoint, I'd have a few Ferraris al- already if, if I'd- Yeah ... allowed myself to be, to be hired to write the same code over and over and over and over again. Yeah.
[00:20:33] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:20:34] AJ: Yeah, but that's not very interesting. Anyway, the, the, the automation is, is kind of, uh, it is a mindset in it- in, uh, in itself, and it is what allows you to amplify the value that you can create now and incrementally ratchet it up further and further and further, but doing so in a, i- in, in a way that everybody understands, right?
[00:21:03] It's like I, I- Mm-hmm ... uh, I'd love to have, uh, your perspective on, on a couple things, because I know, I mean, AI is changing a lot of mindsets. AI is, is having lots of impacts in lots of areas. But i- in a particular space like... It makes it very easy to become lazy It makes it very, it's, it's just like a, um...
[00:21:29] The, the way we've, the, the way I've been counseling my team is like it's a tool like anything else. You can use it to create value or destroy value. It's just a question- Yeah ... of how you use it. Right. And the, the, the guidance that I've been giving, I'd like your, I'd like your feedback on that, is fundamentally you're using it right if it's helping you as an engineer or an architect get smarter and more efficient-
[00:21:58] Ahmad: Right
[00:21:59] AJ: and deliver- Right ... higher quality, right?
[00:22:01] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:22:01] AJ: But- Absolutely ... and, and, and, you know, if you can deliver higher quality in less time, wonderful. That's called automation, okay? Um-
[00:22:08] Ahmad: Yeah ...
[00:22:09] AJ: that's nothing new, but it's become the easy button. And- Yeah ... where you use it as a substitute for expertise is, is a path- Yeah
[00:22:22] to a bit of a downward spiral. So I, I, uh- It
[00:22:25] Ahmad: is. It's, it's a trap.
[00:22:27] AJ: It is. It is a trap. So how are you avoiding this?
[00:22:31] Ahmad: Cue the, the Ad- Ad- Admiral Ackbar, "It's a trap," Star Wars clip. You know? Like, it's, uh... I mean, y- you have people who can generate, you know, prompt a, prompt an AI to write a c- write code, and it builds all this stuff, and then, oh, there's this, there's a bug or you need a feature change or something like that, and they don't know how to, they don't know how to dissect it-
[00:22:50] AJ: No, you just-
[00:22:50] Ahmad: figure out what it's doing to make it- You just fuck around with
[00:22:52] AJ: the prompts ...
[00:22:52] Ahmad: the... You're screwed. Yeah, you're screwed. You're trapped. Fuck around and find out.
[00:22:54] AJ: Yeah. Yeah. No, I- Yeah ... well, I mean, it's a, it's an attractive trap though, isn't it?
[00:23:00] Ahmad: It is. Yeah, it is. It, 'cause it's... The problem is it, I mean, it writes code at, uh, that can be just completely off the wall, uh, you know, impossible to troubleshoot and, um, and then what do you do with that?
[00:23:12] Oh, wait, hold
[00:23:13] AJ: on. Hold on. All you have to do is give it specs. It'll write perfect, and it'll make sure that the tests pass. That's good enough- Yeah ... right?
[00:23:23] Ahmad: No.
[00:23:24] AJ: No. And-
[00:23:26] Ahmad: Not even close. Yeah.
[00:23:27] AJ: No, I... Well, well, I mean, that, that, that's the thing. Like, I, I, um- I've been a fan of code generation forever. I mean, that's the foundation of what- Right
[00:23:32] we've been working on for 26 years. Yeah. That's at the core of all kinds of automation. But the whole point of, say, um, deterministic operations is you can trust the result. There's intention behind it. Yeah. It's built- Yeah ... from the inside out.
[00:23:51] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:23:51] AJ: And I just... I've gotta make sure that, that I'm not the old guy telling the kids to stay off the lawn, although sometimes I, I feel
[00:23:59] Ahmad: like I'm- Yeah, I, I don't know.
[00:24:00] Yeah, I feel that way sometimes too. Yeah. Like everybody's just prompting their way through life at this point.
[00:24:08] AJ: Yeah, and, and the The need for expertise, the need for, uh, I'll, I'll... Th- this is how I'm thinking of it at this point. The type of automation I, I think you and I have been working on for many years is really focused on packaging our learning, our intelligence, the things that we have learned to reduce risk and improve efficiency- Right
[00:24:34] in a completely trustworthy way.
[00:24:37] Ahmad: Absolutely. Right? It's- Yeah. Very deterministic. I push the button, you do these things. That's it.
[00:24:42] AJ: Correct.
[00:24:42] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:24:42] AJ: And you can chart what will be done that way, and so you're not worried- Right ... about what's on the inside because you, you know it. It's known. Yeah. It's understood.
[00:24:49] Right. It's been packaged. You understand exactly what's inside, what
[00:24:53] Ahmad: the new- Yeah. I open the package, I'm gonna know exactly what I see. Yeah.
[00:24:56] AJ: 100%. Yeah. And there are ways, uh, uh, we're exploring ways of getting similar results out of gen AI. Yeah. But it's extraordinarily... It's, it's not the default path, let's put it that way.
[00:25:10] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:25:11] AJ: So the, the... B- but the idea is deterministic automation and code, and code, code generation builds from the inside out. Gen AI builds from the outside in. Okay, give me specs and give me a UX. Mm-hmm. Great. I'll build it in. Right. Don't worry about what's underneath. Yes. Well, in critical circumstances, what's underneath is important, not just as a function- Absolutely
[00:25:37] of form or preference, or does it pass the tests, 'cause no test coverage is gonna be 100% anyway. It's like I, I, I... There's this, there's this pernicious thing like, um, uh... Well, it's at the heart of vibe, vibe, vibing, right? Vibe coding. Vibe
[00:25:53] Ahmad: coding? Yeah.
[00:25:55] AJ: Trust me, bro. Trust me. Yeah. Don't worry about the code inside.
[00:25:59] You don't need to understand it. You don't need to know it. Just, just go with it.
[00:26:03] Ahmad: How?
[00:26:03] AJ: And it's, it's, um... It's, it's quite popular, let's just say that.
[00:26:06] Ahmad: Right.
[00:26:06] AJ: So culturally- More and
[00:26:08] Ahmad: more so, yeah.
[00:26:09] AJ: Well, I mean, culturally, how are you addressing this internally so that your engineers are using AI in the right way, are using it to continuously create trustworthy output?
[00:26:22] Ahmad: Yeah. I mean, I think my engineers understand the implications of, of the, the work that we do, um, that... I mean, we are not writing cellphone apps. We're not writing, uh, you know, applications that st- in the digital world. Our code immediately has physical implications in the real world. Things move. You know, you can swing several hundred horsepower motors and, and, uh, and very large pieces of equipment can, uh, can be mobilized with a couple lines of code.
[00:26:51] So it's important that, uh, well, they understand the, the, the potential hazards and value of, of ensuring that the code is, is, is correct and is, is built properly. Additionally, PCS7 has a lot of built-in guardrails. It is a block code language, so a lot of it is just block generated, so you're gener- you're building, you're putting in blocks primarily, which are pre-qualified by Siemens and everything.
[00:27:15] But then ensuring that they're all connected correctly, that all the correct interlocks are placed on any piece of equipment and, and all the permissives are, are in place so that that piece of equipment can only run when conditions are correct, uh, is extremely important. And, and then those things are always, uh, tested and validated by the customer i- in advance of them going into production.
[00:27:34] So the, even the opportunity to do a trust me, bro is, is just not even, it's just not a, an- It's not a thing ... atmosphere or, or a world that we, we live in. Um, so I mean, there, uh- Accountability is important ... I'm sure our customers trust us, but we, we demand that our customers validate our, our programming. Uh, and we don't, we don't even provide them the opportunity to say, "No, you got this."
[00:27:57] We, we demand that they provide factory acceptance testing, that they provide experts for, for our factory acceptance tests so that we know when we go to site and we drop that code in, that, that it will operate, uh, correctly and safely, um, a- and that we'll have, uh, a smooth and fast startup and commissioning, which is really what we're, we're looking for, so.
[00:28:15] AJ: So, so you are experts in this space, and you require your customers' experts to validate your work-
[00:28:24] Ahmad: Absolutely. Absolutely ... before
[00:28:25] AJ: going
[00:28:25] Ahmad: live. Always. Yeah. Yeah, always.
[00:28:27] AJ: Um, uh, are you, are you finding that expertise in your space is becoming more rare or more
[00:28:33] Ahmad: prevalent? Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. The unfortunate, unfortunate case of the matter is that this, um- The position of automation engineer, especially for the systems that we work on with these large distributed automation or distributed control systems that tend to operate these high value, very low downtime systems, um, it is a fairly high pressure role.
[00:28:58] Um, you know, there's a lot of pressure on the engineer and, um, there's potentially a lot of travel, um, because, you know, execution of these, of this code has to be done typically on site, um, depending on its complexity and, and how much, you know, is being done. And, uh, that's just not something people wanna do these days.
[00:29:15] I mean, in addition to the fact that, you know, the number of engineers that are produced from, from universities these days is always waning, you know. Um, we, we look for engineers in almost every discipline, uh, typically the classic disciplines, mechanical, chemical, electrical. Um, uh, because we touch all of those engi- or all of those fields every time we do any project, right?
[00:29:37] We, we go all the way across the gamut. So, um, uh, finding the people who have the desire to, to do the work under the pressure, um, and I compensate... I try to compensate my, my engineers appropriately for the, for the work they do, and I know it's a hard job. Um, but I guarantee there's easier jobs, right? So,
[00:30:00] AJ: um- Yeah.
[00:30:00] No, I, I- It
[00:30:01] Ahmad: even-
[00:30:02] AJ: I keep running across them.
[00:30:04] Ahmad: Yeah. The, so just keeping people in the industry, not just, not just... I mean, my company is very fortunate that we have an extremely low turnover. We, we are actually losing our first engineer that we've ever lost in 10 years. Um, he's gonna go explore the data center world, um, and we wish him best of luck.
[00:30:22] But- I get- We, we haven't lost an engineer to date in 10 years, uh, till this Friday, which is, uh, very good, I think. Um, but the- No, but- ... industry as a whole loses a lot of people because it is just a hard job. And- Well, that says a lot about- ... um, sometimes the compensation is not enough to, to justify the stress.
[00:30:41] AJ: No, I get you. Compensation is something, it's something that needs to be taken seriously.
[00:30:47] Ahmad: Um-
[00:30:47] AJ: Absolutely, yeah. We, we, we, we compensate our, our folks very well and fairly. But the other thing is the When we're hiring We're looking for people who are looking for a home.
[00:31:06] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:31:07] AJ: Right. And I, I guess I'm a little Japanese in, in some ways.
[00:31:11] N- not in the salaryman mindset where you're gonna be working 80 hours a week, but when we hire, we try to hire for life.
[00:31:22] Ahmad: Right. That's
[00:31:23] AJ: what I'm- And it's on- ... that's
[00:31:24] Ahmad: what I like to
[00:31:25] AJ: try to do ... I mean, it's on us as leaders to find a way to generate enough revenue and enough on- enough ongoing business to keep our people healthy, happy, challenged, and growing continuously.
[00:31:43] Ahmad: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:31:43] AJ: Right? And, and- Yeah ... I think cultural- the, the, the culture that, that a company adopts is so very crucial to that turnover, and this is your f- your f- your first person leaving in, in 10 years. That says a lot about you doing it right, from my perspective. Um-
[00:31:59] Ahmad: Yeah. I mean, I wish I could pay them orders of magnitude more.
[00:32:03] They all deserve it. So I wish the world worked that way, but it's, uh-
[00:32:07] AJ: Yeah, no, it- ... it's tough ... it's, it's, um... Look, if it was easy, anybody could do it. But the, the only promise that I've made my, uh, people over the years is you will not be bored. And I imagine- ... none of your people are bored either.
[00:32:21] Ahmad: Yeah, I can't imagine they are.
[00:32:24] AJ: Yeah. So, you know, um-
[00:32:24] You've been through... You have had the company how long now? For how many years? Yeah, about
[00:32:28] Ahmad: 10 years. 10 years, yeah.
[00:32:30] AJ: Uh, about 10
[00:32:30] Ahmad: years. It'll be 10 years, uh, this, this winter.
[00:32:33] AJ: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. This November will be hitting 27 years.
[00:32:38] Ahmad: Wow.
[00:32:38] AJ: So I've got more gray than, uh, you do. But it's all, it's all good.
[00:32:43] Um, you know, when you... As you've made investments in automation on top of your selected platform, again, it's logical, it makes sense, um, how have you navigated the, the packaging of your offering between a product and a service?
[00:33:03] Ahmad: Well, we, uh-
[00:33:04] We typically own the project once it's on site, so, um, there's always a service to follow it, follow the product, right? So, um, we will deploy our code, we'll commission it, start it up, make sure it's running good. But then, you know, once we're done with the project, there's always work to do. There's things breaking in the field that need to be...
[00:33:30] that need troubleshooting, operators potentially need training. Sure. Um, there's always small projects, there's always tuning and optimization that can be gained. So every time we touch a system, we understand that we probably own it for life, um, and, and that's what we do. And we, we've been very good retaining our customers, um, trying to keep them happy, uh, and, and that provides just ongoing service work.
[00:33:56] Uh, and it, and it's unavoidable, and it's something that, uh, I think, um... You know, Siemens offers this as a service. They offer, uh, you know, these project, the project work where they will come in and, and do the big chunk of programming, and they'll start up your plant, um, but they really fall short on then taking care of it after that.
[00:34:18] Um, and, uh, that's, that's really where, where a company like mine, uh, excels over even Siemens themselves is that, you know, once, once the project's done, we're still here for you. We're here for you as long as you need us, um, with everything you're gonna need. Um, if you call, we answer the phones middle of the night.
[00:34:33] Um, you need us to be on site tomorrow, we'll be there. And, uh, and that's, that's something, you know, that Siemens doesn't do. Um, I assume that most of our, our com-competition does, but, uh, you know, providing that package and service, um, is, is just part of the core of our business that allows us to, um, I guess, stand above even the OEM providing the service, so, or providing, I guess, the package.
[00:34:55] Yeah.
[00:34:56] AJ: Oh, excellent. I, I get it. The Like trust is everything. Earning the, earning the trust of your employees and of your customers and maintaining it for years is kind of really the only path forward. So-
[00:35:13] Ahmad: Right ...
[00:35:13] AJ: but every quarter you also have to find ways of delivering incremental value to your customers.
[00:35:19] Right.
[00:35:19] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:35:20] AJ: Right, right. Otherwise they tend to forget or forget how good they have it. Um, so how do you attack that quarter over quarter staying ahead of that kind of demand curve?
[00:35:33] Ahmad: Well, I, I, I, I try not to bother my customers. Oh. I, I don't... I, I try not to sales guy as, as much as I can avoid it. Um, you know, our customers who are doing projects are constantly in contact with their primary point of contact, the engineer that knows their, their system best, and, and those relationships kind of just, uh, attenuate on their own.
[00:35:52] There are, uh, you know, customers who don't do projects very often and, um, you know, I try to reach out, touch base, let them know that we're still here. But it's, it's, um, it's a fine line 'cause I, I know that they're busy and I, I'm not a sales guy, but I'm the closest thing we have to a sales guy, so we have- You're the CEO
[00:36:11] we have no sales force. You're the CEO. We, we have no internal sales force, so yeah.
[00:36:15] AJ: No, I, I-
[00:36:16] Ahmad: Yeah ...
[00:36:17] AJ: I get you there. The, the-
[00:36:19] Ahmad: Yeah
[00:36:23] AJ: Acting like a sales guy is not the right thing to do anyway. So by definition- Right,
[00:36:28] Ahmad: right ...
[00:36:28] AJ: you are the- Yeah ... best salesperson the company has, and that's not gonna change- Right ... whether you like it or not. I mean, I've, I've come to that con- conclusion-
[00:36:35] Ahmad: Yeah. I mean, I've- ...
[00:36:36] AJ: reluctantly myself.
[00:36:38] Ahmad: I, I do know of some of my competition who have, uh, large and aggressive sales teams, um, because they knock on my customers' doors and, um, you know, that's just not the company we are.
[00:36:50] We are, we are engineers, and our company is a group of engineers, and I think, um, as important as sales is to the company, um, I think sticking to the, I guess the mindset or the, um, priorities that an engineer would carry over a salesperson is, is part of the culture of our company. Um, you know, we're not here to upsell anybody.
[00:37:16] We're not here to, to try to convince anyone to take any products. We're here to solve people's problems. They have a problem, we have a solution. That's how it goes. Uh, if they would like us to... If they'd like to bring us their problem for us to provide them a solution, we're happy to do that. Um, and our company has grown, uh, strictly based on our, um, past work and, uh, and word of mouth, and I think, um, that's, uh, one of the reasons why we've been able to do that.
[00:37:45] So that's who we are.
[00:37:48] AJ: Um, knowing who you are is more important than anything else. On that front, I mean, you know, you've gotten past the first decade.
[00:37:57] Ahmad: Yeah.
[00:37:58] AJ: Oof. What are your plans for decade number two?
[00:38:03] Ahmad: I don't know. Just stay on the throttle. Yeah, I think we're really, we're really breaking through right now on, uh, our reputation has really started to blossom, uh, in, into spaces where they have traditionally looked for extremely large companies or companies that have long, uh, track records.
[00:38:29] Uh, you know, like large pharmaceutical companies, um, they, they like to also work with large companies. Large companies in general like to work with large companies.
[00:38:38] AJ: Yeah.
[00:38:38] Ahmad: And, um, for us to c- step in and say, "Oh, we can do a better job than that large company," was a difficult thing for a lot of people to understand.
[00:38:50] But I think at this point, when we come in and we say that, um, we can also follow it up with, "Ask these people." You know, ask Siemens. Go to your Siemens sales guy, ask him who's the best. They have one answer, and it's us. So, um- I
[00:39:05] AJ: love
[00:39:05] Ahmad: this way ... you know, being able to do that is, you know, that, that, uh, that, uh, quiets a lot of, uh, doubt very quickly, so.
[00:39:12] AJ: I love that. Um, so more of the same, just faster.
[00:39:19] Ahmad: Yeah, I think so. I, I mean, there's still a lot of growth, um, there's a lot of, a lot of growth we can still have. Um, our, our biggest problem really is finding PCS7 experts. I mean, if there's anyone out there listening that is a, that is, that, uh, works within PCS7 and wants to come work on a team dedicated to it, then, you know, drop me a, drop me an email, send me a message on LinkedIn, whatever.
[00:39:41] I, I mean, we always need good people, and, uh, we try to take care of our people as best we can, and that's our, our growth limitation right now, and since, since I started, that's been our, our limiting factor. And, um, you know, as we find people, as we grow people, um, build people, uh, we'll be able to grow the company and, and continue to take on newer customers, bigger projects, and, uh, and just keep going forward.
[00:40:08] AJ: So to kind of reflect that back to you, I, I... The reason I'm doing this, it, it reminds me of a lot of our core s- strategy. You're s- you're speaking about investing a lot in your own people.
[00:40:24] Ahmad: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's huge. And
[00:40:25] AJ: that being the path to creating ever more value for your customers.
[00:40:31] Ahmad: Of course, yeah.
[00:40:32] Yeah. It's a feedback cycle- Well- ... of value. Yeah.
[00:40:35] AJ: You say of course, but this is not a common view.
[00:40:40] Ahmad: I know. Yeah. Hey- It's 'cause I don't have an MBA. I'm an engineer.
[00:40:46] AJ: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. No, I, I, I, I'm an engi- uh, I'm a mechanical engineer by training.
[00:40:52] Ahmad: Right.
[00:40:52] AJ: Um, but I, I get you and I get that, and I certainly wish you all the best.
[00:40:57] Um, you know, uh, just to kind of wrap up, I, um, I believe our legacy will be measured by how, how well and how far we lift all those we touch, whether it be- Absolutely ... our people, their, their, uh, families, our customers- Yeah ... who become my friends. Yeah. Their families- Yeah ... their end customers, right? It's- Yeah
[00:41:18] that's kind of core driving thing. That's what I want our legacy to be measured by. What do you want your legacy to be?
[00:41:28] Ahmad: Oh, man.
[00:41:33] That's a, that's a hard question. You know, I think, um, before a family, I think, I think I had pretty clear understanding of what I think, what I thought that would be. But, you know, once you have a family, that, that perspective changes so much.
[00:41:47] AJ: It does
[00:41:47] Ahmad: indeed. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I think right now I, I, uh, I don't know that I put very much thought into it.
[00:41:58] I think right now the most important thing is, is taking care of, of what's around me and taking care of my, my family, my employees, my customers. And, um, I think if you do that, if you take care of those people around you, like you said, then legacy is not something to worry about
[00:42:19] AJ: I get you. Well, Ahmed, I really appreciate you-
[00:42:24] Ahmad: Absolutely.
[00:42:25] Appreciate the opportunity ...
[00:42:26] AJ: coming on the podcast. Yeah.
[00:42:28] Ahmad: Yeah. We take care. Thank you. All right. Thanks.
[00:42:31] AJ: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Value Creation Mindset. I'm AJ Singh. If this episode helped you, please follow the show, leave a rating, and share it with one person who you think it will benefit.
[00:42:43] For show notes and more, visit modularius.com/podcast. See you next time