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Tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode of Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast. Join Francine L. Shaw, the savvy CEO of Savvy Food Safety, and Matthew Regusci, compliance connoisseur and founder of Fostering Compliance, as they serve up the latest in food safety with a side of laughter.
Explore the ins and outs of food systems, responsible food practices, and food safety regulations. Stay informed about food safety awareness and the not-so-occasional food recall. Delve deep into the complexities of the food supply chain with our dynamic duo, who blend expert insights with a pinch of food safety humor. Whether you're knee-deep in the food safety industry or just passionate about what's on your plate, this podcast promises a fresh take on staying safe while eating well.
Expect candid conversations, personal anecdotes, and occasional guest appearances that spice up the discussion. Shaw and Regusci bring their combined decades of experience to the table, making each episode as informative as it is entertaining. From industry trends to must-know food safety news and regulations, they've got your back (and your lunch).
In essence, Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast is not just about imparting information; it's about fostering a culture of food safety. By shedding light on the intricacies of the food supply chain and the latest food safety news, it aims to promote awareness and encourage responsible food practices among consumers and industry professionals alike.
When it comes to food safety, knowledge is power, and a good laugh is the best seasoning. At the heart of every episode is one golden rule: Don't Eat Poop!
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[00:00:00] Matt: In meat products in the United States, the Food and Drug Administration sets a maximum histamine concentration of 50 AG per KG for food in general, a stricter limit than the European legislation, which is fascinating that we have something in the States stricter than they do in the EU. That generally is not the case, by the way.
Yeah. Like when I say generally, like way more than generally.
[00:00:28] Francine: We fact-check to make sure this is a true statement.
[00:00:32] Matt: Yeah. Like the studies that I help with Clean Label Project, we're looking into the regulations, and we're like, "Uh, there's no regulations in the States for this particular food category." And so then we go to the EU, and we're like, "Oh yeah, they definitely have a regulation.
Here's what the regulation is over there for that food category." Uh, crazy.
[00:00:59] Intro: [00:01:00] Everybody's gotta eat, and nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points, from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine Elshaw and Matt Regusci for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule: don't eat poop.
Don't eat poop.
[00:01:25] Matt: Hello, hello, Francine. We started off today with Francine having a bit of an OCD moment. There were like four things out of place on her desk.
[00:01:35] Francine: You know, the more that we do this, the better people get to know us. Is that good? Is it bad? I don't know.
[00:01:41] Matt: Okay, I would be the one that would like go to your desk and purposely move things just, like a couple inches to see if you would notice.
And then, yeah, if we worked in the same office together, I would just be waiting to hear you yell.
[00:01:57] Francine: Let me tell you something. You and my children [00:02:00] probably would get along very well. When my kids were young... My God. So I had the Longaberger dishes. I don't know if you know what they are or not, but some of our listeners will.
They have a pattern on them, and I had a shelf. I used to be so horrible. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but they had a pattern on them, and I had them sitting on a shelf, and they were very neatly organized on these shelves with the handles all turned this specific direction.
[00:02:29] Matt: Yes.
[00:02:29] Francine: I'm pretty sure it was my son.
When they would come home from school, they would move them and see how long it took me to notice. I'm pretty sure it was my son that did that. I used to, in my cupboard - oh my God, this is so bad - alphabetize like my Jell-O and my soup in the cupboard.
[00:02:51] Matt: That is so funny. Alphabetize?
[00:02:54] Intro: Oh my gosh.
[00:02:55] Francine: Alphabetize the soup and the Jell-O in my cupboard I was [00:03:00] bad?
[00:03:00] Matt: There was like, I'm not even joking, people, there was maybe a few things out of place on Francine's desk, and she's like, "I can't start. I ca- I, I need to clean up. Need to clean up. It's crazy over here." And it took her, like, I don't know, 30 seconds to move everything back into place, and then she's like, "Okay, I'm good."
And you know, you know what's interesting, too? Because so much of... I mean, obviously you can deal with scatterbrained, disorganized stuff because you've worked with me for so many years.
[00:03:28] Francine: Yeah, I, yes, I can. And I mean, my house by no means is perfect. I mean, the, by no means. Things get disorganized and gets to be total chaos.
I mean, I have two giant dogs and a husband. And I am not always real good about, you know, putting things where they belong either, but yeah, no.
[00:03:48] Matt: It's funny too, 'cause like in business, like I've seen you multiple, multiple, innumerable times deal with chaos in the day-to-day, and I think it's fascinating because you're, like, so [00:04:00] organized and so clean.
Like, I've seen you when you're not ready to go out into public, so I've gotten to see that side of you. But you are s- when you go out into public, like, you are dressed immaculately, which is very different than me. I'm like a polo shirt and a vest, I'm good. I'm professional. Oh, I'm gonna go out to a baseball game, a polo shirt and a vest, I'm good.
Like, like I look the same at home as I do when I go out. Like, you're, like, completely are, like, all... But then when it comes to, like, crazy, and I don't know if it's the way you ha- kind of have everything organized. Like, here's the things that I can control, here's the things that I can't, and as long as I got these under control, I'm not stressed out when all these things go to hell in a hand basket on a daily basis, 'cause that's like what running a business is.
It's just funny. My wife is the same way, and it's really hard as the person who is on the opposite side of that, because my wife has, everything has to be in [00:05:00] its place. Everything has to be, like, all the counters have to be cleaned and sanitized and all that stuff. And so she works night shifts, and she sleeps during the day, like, a couple times a week, and the house looks crazy every time she wakes up.
And the reason why, and she's always like, "I don't understand why you can't get everything, like, all perfect and all this stuff and stuff." And I say, "Because I can't do it to your standard, so I'm not gonna do it to my standard and then have you come up and redo everything, so it just goes crazy. And so I know you're gonna spend, like, 20 minutes making everything perfect again, and then it'll be like that for the next week."
That's
[00:05:36] Francine: how my husband feels, I'm sure, is like, I, I'm not gonna do it right, so there's certain things I just may as well not do because you're not gonna be happy with it anyway. But yeah, I perform very well in chaos. It's crazy. Better a lot of times in chaos. Don't give me too much time, because I'm gonna take all of it.
[00:05:56] Matt: Oh, but it's so funny when you're like, "I can't start yet, Matt. I need to [00:06:00] clean my, I need to clean my office. It's crazy." And there's like four things done Yeah, but
[00:06:04] Francine: that whole pattern thing, they would move on to see how long it would... It, like, "Don't mess with me." And I, I'm pretty sure it was my son. And yeah, the Jell-O and the soup alphabetized.
It, and it was... I know now, like, there was so much in that part of my life, there was so much going on, and I had so little control for a variety of reasons, that I could control the Jell-O and the soup. That, there are people listening to this that are gonna understand that. Oh,
[00:06:31] Matt: 100%.
[00:06:33] Francine: But yeah, there are always gonna be some things, because it's part of my personality, but I'm not crazy, people.
I'm not crazy.
[00:06:40] Matt: I mean, some of the best food safety people I've ever met are like, they have everything exactly the way it needs to be. They have all their processes, procedures, all where they need to go, and it needs to be there, and that's part of their job. And every auditor I had, and we, my partner and I had like 400 auditors across the [00:07:00] world, had their own way of doing things, had their own way of organizing things.
And everything had to be, like, a certain way, and we had to kind of learn how they do things. And then it was like, "Dude, as long as the work gets done , as long as it's done in a timely fashion, we don't care how you organize everything, 'cause every single person is gonna be different." Similar in their OCD, different in how it, it relates into real life.
[00:07:27] Francine: So I believe that certain personality types, and statistically I believe that, and scientifically that this is the case, because I've done all the research, certain personality types are drawn to certain professions and industries, and that's why it's that way. I am a very clear example and specimen of that.
It's also why I and you run multiple businesses-
[00:07:56] Matt: Yes ...
[00:07:56] Francine: as well. My businesses don't even... [00:08:00] They're not even in the same industry. They're not even in the same freaking industry, and people don't know that about me. They're not even in the same industry.
[00:08:11] Matt: No. So, like, I'm not organized. Anybody who's worked with me for a while know I'm not organized.
I'm just not. But I'm the guy who throws a whole bunch of balls in the air and has very key people who are organized that are designed to catch them. I'm able to grow businesses in the tech space, like, crazy fast, but it's because I'm, like, doing a whole lot of projects, and I can do a whole lot of projects, and I can, like, jump on a sales call, jump on a technical call, jump on a board meeting, all within, like, three hours of each other, and be perfectly fine doing that.
But at the end of it, it's somebody is taking notes I'm reviewing the notes, and then if there's something like a task that is not assigned to somebody, I'm [00:09:00] like, "Who's gonna take this task on? Who's gonna make sure that this gets done?" And then I just remember I need to follow up with that person to make sure that task is done, or what's holding them up or whatever.
How could I help? I, I, it, my... would not work, though. My style would not work if I didn't have very organized people working with me or under me or whatever that are helping to make sure those balls do not get dropped. And when a ball does drop, I'm like, "Oh, you know what? My bad. That actually is my fault because I forgot to tell somebody to do that.
So that is totally on me. Here, let's go find somebody. Who would be the person to do this? Let's go get that per-" You know, great. Okay.
[00:09:42] Francine: This is the other thing. My daughter-in-law listens to this podcast. She's listening to you talk about how organized I am, and she's thinking, "Who are you talking
[00:09:51] Matt: about?"
[00:09:53] Francine: Because the woman I know does not appear to be that organized. Because in my personal life, I don't [00:10:00] have to be as organized as I am in my professional life. It's like I make a million decisions a day. I don't want to go home and make another million decisions. In my personal life, I don't typically come off near as organized as I am at work.
Another thing is Melissa is my person here.
[00:10:21] Matt: Yes.
[00:10:22] Francine: And she does a fantastic job
[00:10:27] Matt: Yes ...
[00:10:27] Francine: with the things. We, we have very different responsibilities at work, but some of the things that need to be done, like that I need help with, she's very good at doing, like as far as the organizational aspect of it. So anyway, yeah, we digress, but yeah.
[00:10:45] Matt: This was just a story, by the way. It had nothing to do with what we're gonna be talking about today. Usually our stories kind of interlude into what we are gonna discuss. Th- th- this, this was just something that just happened this morning, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so funny." [00:11:00] We just saw on Food Safety News that there was an outbreak in Spain that affected a whole bunch of children under the age of three, and it was fascinating because I had never heard of this.
I don't know, Francine, have you ever heard of this before?
[00:11:16] Francine: No, not at all. Not at all.
[00:11:18] Matt: And so we thought th- this is really interesting because this is gonna affect... And obv- obviously they're looking at this in Spain. The researchers are doing this research in Spain, but this could affect any country in the world, and it's like, I'd never heard of this to the point of, Francine, can...
Do you know how to pronounce these words?
[00:11:39] Francine: Biogenic amines.
[00:11:41] Matt: Biogenic amines Yeah, I was like, "Biogenic amines? Bi- biogen- bi- biogenic I understand. I could, I could pronounce that. That's perfectly fine. Amines? Amines? Um, uh, uh, uh,
[00:11:52] Francine: what- All I could think is, "What are those things that kids are into now? Animines or-
[00:11:58] Matt: Anime[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Francine: And, uh, well, I, I don't know how to say that either. Thank God I don't have children that are young now that are... I, I have a granddaughter that likes them, but, like, I, I, I don't even know how to say what this toy is. I just-
[00:12:10] Matt: Yeah. Do, the, with the- You know what they are? With the anime and magna, ma- magma, mag- mag- m- I don't know, magna, mag, what- whatever.
What
[00:12:20] Francine: are these? I don't know. They're toys.
[00:12:23] Matt: But my kids were, like, when they were young and into Pokémon cards, I remember them asking me, uh, oh, they... And actually they're still into Pokémon cards, which by the way is the best business ever created, like, is Pokémon cards. And they're like, "Do you, Dad, do you know what Pokémon cards are?"
And I was like, "Dude, they were around when I was a teenager. Like, yeah, I know what Pokémon cards are." And it's like 50, 40, 50 years of continuing to build that brand is fascinating.
[00:12:50] Francine: So yeah, that's what I thought when I first saw the word. But yeah, so anyway, back to the chicken.
[00:12:55] Matt: Yeah. So this was just interesting.
So a whole bunch of [00:13:00] kids, little kids, got sick from biogenic amines in chicken in Spain, and a lot of it was, like, in nurseries and stuff like that. And I just thought it was fascinating. Uh, for those who don't know, and don't feel bad 'cause we're j- we were just learning about this as well, biogenic amines are low molecular weight organic base synthesized in vivo or via microbial decarboxylation of amino acids.
Basically bacteria is breaking down amino acids.
[00:13:37] Francine: And what happened is these children had mild allergy-like symptoms-
[00:13:41] Matt: Yes ...
[00:13:42] Francine: the result.
[00:13:44] Matt: Yes. And it was fascinating because it, like, increases the histamine and other type of dopamine reactions that made the kids have, like you said, allergic type reactions. The toxicity of this [00:14:00] on, if you're ingesting this in high doses, can cause symptoms like nausea, headaches, rash, heart palpitations.
And so they were, like, having these allergic reactions to something that they weren't... You know, chicken. They weren't allergic to chicken. You know, I mean, somebody might be, but most of them that were in this were not allergic to chicken. They were allergic to this biogenic amines that were being caused because of bacterial breakdown of amino acids.
[00:14:30] Francine: And this would be like any allergen that is in any product. You wouldn't be able to cook it out. It would be there. It would have been cooked, and you wouldn't be able to cook it out. So- There'd be nothing you could do, and you wouldn't know it was... In this particular case, they wouldn't even know that it was there.
What I'm looking at says the, the chemical can develop if the chicken was not fresh enough-
[00:14:57] Matt: Yep ...
[00:14:57] Francine: or not kept cold enough.
[00:14:59] Matt: Yeah. So [00:15:00] bad cold chain, basically.
[00:15:03] Francine: No, bad warm chicken.
[00:15:05] Intro: That's right. So bad cold chain process created the warm chicken.
[00:15:09] Francine: Okay. Okay. They said bad cold chicken. Okay.
[00:15:13] Matt: Yeah. So the scientists kind of looked at this, 'cause there's like a dozen of these outbreaks in, or more in, in Spain, and they're like, "What is going on?
We need to investigate this." And so scientists have investigated how to minimize the risk of exposure to a compound involved in almost a dozen outbreaks affecting young children in Spain. So almost a dozen. Several outbreaks were linked to meals with chicken served to children younger than three years old that tested positive for biogenic amines, such as histamine and tyramine.
So what they've realized in their research, which makes sense because, you know, they're just figuring this out, is no standards and guidelines have been published on the content of the biogenic amines in meat products. In the [00:16:00] United States, the Food and Drug Administration sets a maximum histamine concentration of 58G per KG for food in general, a stricter limit than the European legislation, which is fascinating that we have something in the States stricter than they do in the EU.
That generally is not the case, by the way. Yeah, like when I say generally, like way more than generally.
[00:16:26] Francine: We fact-checked to make sure this is a true statement.
[00:16:31] Matt: Yeah. Like, the studies that I help with Clean Label Project, we're looking into the regulations and we're like, "Uh, there's no regulations in the States for this particular food category."
And so then we go to the EU and we're like, "Oh yeah, they definitely have a regulation. Here's what the regulation is over there for that food category." Uh, crazy. Yeah, so they had 11 outbreaks in nursery schools from 2023 and 2024 linked to eating chicken [00:17:00] with the presence of biogenic amines. The scientific committee in the Spanish Agency for Food Safety and Nutrition assessed information on factors that can lead to this type of outbreak.
Findings were published in the journal Food Risk Assess Europe. I pulled up that journal. It's about 33 pages long, was reading through it. There's a lot of great info on this if you are interested, and we'll have that link below as well. Yeah, just... It basically, it's chicken that wasn't stored correctly.
So it's like cheap chicken, probably why they were selling it or giving it away at the nurseries.
[00:17:37] Francine: They were giving crap food to- The most vulnerable population. It's so sad.
[00:17:45] Matt: But I don't know. I don't know. I mean, would it be better for the kids to starve or die of an allergic reaction or a food safety issue?
[00:17:53] Francine: We don't want to kill the children. That's-
[00:17:56] Intro: The nice thing ab- about this particular
[00:17:59] Matt: outbreak [00:18:00] is you get immediate gratification, as opposed to listeria, waiting for 60 days or something like that. With this one, symptoms appeared within a few minutes of ingestion, mainly as a reaction on the face, sometimes on the hands, redness, rash, hives, itching sensation.
Symptoms appeared in most cases shortly after, without the need for healthcare. Yeah, because they just thought the kids had an allergic reaction. But it is interesting when you have, like, I don't know, 10 kids in a nursery that get the same exact thing. I bet they were like, "Uh, I wonder if it was the chicken nuggets we just fed them."
[00:18:37] Francine: Well, I wouldn't think you'd immediately relate it to the chicken, because that's just so uncommon, and it is happening quickly, because in most cases, that's how allergic reactions work. But yeah, I wouldn't. Who's gonna think, "Oh, I bet it was the chicken"? Unless there are several children that only ate the chicken, or that's all they served.
[00:18:58] Matt: Or they served it three [00:19:00] times a week. Every single time they served the chicken- "
[00:19:03] Francine: Every time we feed the kids this chicken, they break out in a rash. I wonder what's going on."
[00:19:07] Matt: Maybe it's the chicken. They found out that it was, 11 times at least. Who knows how many times this has probably happened, right?
Like, yeah. I could see it, right? You have chicken that's had an issue, or cheap chicken, and you process it down, and I... We don't know if it's, if it's chicken nuggets. I'm just making the assumption that it's chicken
[00:19:28] Francine: nuggets. You're just... Yeah. Right. Well, you just made that up. It could be any
[00:19:31] Matt: kind of chicken.
Could've been any chicken format.
[00:19:34] Francine: They actually serve all chicken breast, I think, on the pitcher. Yeah, they do. Or they... I love that they put on here, "That is why it's tricky. Spoiled-smelling meat is not the only concern. Not all bad meat stinks." You can't taste or smell a lot of spoiled meat. So let's not just be smelling it.
You should never taste [00:20:00] food to find out if it's spoiled. Yeah.
[00:20:03] Matt: No. But the sources tends to be things that probably smell a little spoiled. So the sources tend to be aged cheese, which aged cheese has a funk to it, right? Fermented sausage, that has a funk to
[00:20:17] Francine: it. We're talking about
[00:20:18] Matt: this particular case.
Some of the sources that n- most, most of the time this comes from. Seafood, wine and beer, so both wine and beer are fermented. So most of the time it's coming from fermented food.
[00:20:31] Francine: Right. We're talking about this particular case.
[00:20:32] Matt: Yeah, but this particular case was just junk chicken.
[00:20:35] Francine: When I say this particular case, I'm talking about this-
[00:20:39] Matt: Yes, yes.
And you know, if it is chicken nuggets, which I, again, don't sue us. We don't know if it's chicken nuggets. We're just using this because it's generally with kids. So breaded chicken that is generally delivered to children. You know, like if you put enough spices [00:21:00] and breading or whatever, you're not going to taste any of that, but you're also not going to be able to taste some E.
coli, listeria, any of that type of stuff either. Yeah. So just something else to be aware of. This is a food safety issue that can happen with basically a break in the cold chain.
[00:21:23] Francine: Right.
[00:21:24] Matt: This would be like fantastic if you had a meeting that you wanted to get out of and you knew that this chicken product would give me an allergic reaction.
And then I Did you say
[00:21:36] Francine: a meeting you wanted to get out of?
[00:21:38] Matt: Yeah, like get out of, like a meeting you want to get out of. And then all of a sudden you eat this right beforehand. And then in the meeting, you start breaking out in hives. It's a perfect, perfect excuse. You're like, dude, I don't know what's going on.
[00:21:50] Francine: Do not play with allergens. You don't, but you don't. No. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad advice.
[00:21:57] Matt: Okay, Francine. Okay. [00:22:00] Okay. You're right. Do not play with allergens. Don't listen
[00:22:03] Francine: to
[00:22:03] Matt: me. Dear God. This is not safe for work. I don't eat poop.