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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.933)
Hi, Taina. How are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.006)
hi. I'm good. You're going to the pool?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.887)
Well, you make it sound like that's fun, but I'm going to the pool with six nine-year-old boys. And only me, so would you call that fun?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:09.069)
No, I would not call that fun. I would call that less than fun.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:17.029)
It just kept growing. And now I'm like, I'm basically hosting a pool party by myself, but it's okay because that way I know that they will just like do their thing together. It relieves some, it actually makes it a little better, but it's not, I wouldn't call it fun. But hey, such is the life of a summer parent.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20.983)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:25.448)
care of each other. yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:34.126)
Yeah, I keep telling Melo we need to make friends with some wealthy prank up here in Maryland so we have access to a boat or or pool.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:45.413)
They say the two people that you want to have in your life is, well, three, someone who owns a boat, someone who owns a pool, and a lawyer. Those are the three friends you're supposed to have in your life. I don't want to those. Well, mechanic is also good, you're right. Yeah, but those are the things you don't necessarily, like especially the boat and the pool, it's because you don't want to own those. It's just too much work.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:51.692)
Yeah. L and a mechanic. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01.312)
Yeah, it's high maintenance, expensive. And that's what the one thing I miss about apartment living is having access to a pool.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:12.367)
Well, we have a neighborhood pool, but it used to be the neighborhoods pool. So only the neighbors could, your like HOAD has got you access. They switched it because the neighborhood had gotten so old, there weren't enough kids. People weren't joining. It was falling into disrepair. So now it's a public pool, a public private pool, meaning it's private. They have limited memberships, but anyone could buy one. So it's like 190 families that join and it's now selling out.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14.389)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:21.346)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:29.81)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:35.563)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah. wow. They have city pools here. Which, I mean, I grew up with city pools in New York. Like we would always be at the pool. But now as an adult, when I think about a city pool, I'm like, that's disgusting.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:42.777)
But yeah, we have those two.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:48.195)
Me too.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:52.175)
for sure.
when I'm only discussing, it's just like, don't want to deal with, they're often so crowded and as an adult full of kids, then again, so is this neighborhood pool, but at least it's smaller. We know everybody, it's nice. My kid has a lot of friends up there. Today, the ones I'm bringing, they're all, all the kids that are going are pool members. So I'm just taking them up there, but they're already all members. So anyway, probably nobody wants to hear about this.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:03.447)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:11.328)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:19.213)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (02:20.773)
What do you want to talk about? Like what's going on in the world that you have identified as a thing to discuss and move over because I'm afraid you may not be fully centered on our up and down. You got to to be in the center for when I do YouTube shorts. Hey everybody, there's the tech stuff we're talking about. I'm not editing it out because life's too short for that. Yeah, so what's going on for you?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:28.631)
There we go.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:42.005)
Molo's traveling this week and I am taking care of the dogs by myself so I'm not sleeping so I... that's... that's what's going on with me. I'm fucking tired.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:47.768)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:51.737)
lack of sleep.
I'm tired, also, but it feels more like I'm metaphysical tired.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:01.845)
Mmm, make you feel it in your bones, in your soul, in your spirit.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:04.677)
Just like it all feels overwhelming right now. The world. We went to the no Kings protest. It was my son's first protest. Which was very cool. He was such a rule follower. I love him, but he has a lot of me and him. I took me a rule follower and his biggest thing was like, is this legal mom? And I said, it's I said it's legal. And he's like, OK, then I'll go. But he was so nervous leading up to it.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:13.004)
How was it?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:17.269)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:22.252)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (03:32.057)
I don't even know where it's sinking in because I haven't talked about like the LA stuff that's going on or, much, but I mean, he does know, he does hear me rant and rave a little bit about the current administration and things. And I think he just was really nervous of like, are we going to get in trouble for doing this?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:36.418)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:42.667)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46.518)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:49.635)
He was real nervous when we got there. It was pretty crowded. He was like, it's a lot of people felt overwhelming, which is great that we had thousands of people show up. And I was in a red district, a 60 40 Trump district in Missouri. So we went outside of where we live, which is, the opposite of that. lived, I live in a 60 40 blue district of St. Louis County, which other than in the city is about as blue as Missouri gets. And this was the opposite of that. It was far more Trump territory. And to see that many people there was amazing.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:52.063)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:57.547)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:17.539)
And it wasn't the nicest of days. It was really humid. But there were thousands of people. And he got into it after a while. And he liked hearing the horns honking and clocking how many people were flipping us off. Just sort of noticing all of that. And it was really interesting. There were almost no young kids there. There were a lot of teenagers up. I've been to a lot of protests in my time. I've been kind of that kind of person who likes to go to these kinds of things and show up in this way. And usually there's more children.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:17.568)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:23.562)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:29.077)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:36.138)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:46.989)
And I did think that was interesting because I even had people comment on like, wow, it's really awesome that you brought your kid here. It's brave. I'm like, I don't want to teach him that we allow the fears that they're creating to stop us from showing up. Does that mean I'm not going to have my head on a swivel? Of course not. Does it mean I'm not going to be like arms around him and watching and thinking about like who could ram their car into this or whatever? Of course, all of that was there. But I also don't want him, especially as a potential, you know, a future white man.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:51.612)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:01.706)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:10.377)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:16.745)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:16.911)
to learn that, fear wins and I don't show up when there's a potential cost to me, right? And I do feel like that was a good lesson for him. So it was really good. That was, it was a nice, and my husband went and his sister went and it was the first time I think either of them had ever been to any kind of protest. My son's first protest. I showed up to a call yesterday where we were talking about it, quite a few older white women. It was their first time ever going to a protest. So I do think that speaks to something that this, this event, which brought out,
Taina Brown she/hers (05:22.6)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:28.031)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:34.632)
wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:42.154)
Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:46.115)
millions compared to his sad little present, you know, his king's parade, which had very few people. I do think it says something that it was bringing it's bringing out new people. It's energizing new people, people that it's not just the hardcore folks like me who, you know, give me a rally. I'll be there. People who are like, I don't do this. I might even be scared to do this, which is a refrain I heard quite a bit. But it's I need to do this. I think that's big.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:46.783)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:57.365)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:03.208)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:09.491)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is big. That is big. And I don't know if we mentioned it, but we're talking about the no kings protests over, I was going to say July 4th weekend, but it's still fucking June.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:19.653)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:23.789)
Nope. It's still June. And whenever somebody says we still have three and a half years left on this administration, I can't fathom it because I feel like we are aging. What was that old guy that fell asleep and he woke up and he was like, Rip Van Winkle or whatever. Like, I feel like don't you know that's I don't know. Well, anyway, I feel like every month is already three years. Like it feels like we've already been through six years of this administration where it's months like I.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:33.98)
Uuuhhh
Taina Brown she/hers (06:49.725)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:51.897)
The idea of three and a half more years just hurts me to my core. So no, it is only June. It was the day of his presidential birthday, the 250th anniversary of the army, which we all know it was just him wanting to be an emperor, a king with his, you know, his king, what's his name, Kim Jong-un moment. Did you see any of the footage of it?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56.435)
Yeah. Yeah.
his birthday parade.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:12.638)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:17.383)
few things on social media. was like, I'm not surprised.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:18.661)
But did they come on, did you not get any little bit of pleasure of watching him looking so sad and sullen like a little child? Like I threw a birthday party and nobody came and no, I don't like.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:29.835)
I saw a TikTok where someone, the caption was like, when you spend $45 million on your birthday party and then it cuts to like Elon, like clips of him and Elon together and it was like, and he doesn't show up.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:43.213)
I saw one that was that same birthday party and it was a meme of a dog's birthday party where they threw this birthday party for their dog and then the other dog showed up and then they showed the dog on the couch looking all sad next to Trump. mean, the memes and things were golden. And just the way that that was hammered home, that he tried to do this and America largely said, no, we don't do this here. This is not how we want to be. It does give me some hope.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:57.605)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:06.82)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.793)
And that's what my husband and sister-in-law both said, and I knew that would help them because my sister-in-law particular has been really struggling with what's going on and just the overwhelm of it. And I said, the best thing about these protests is it renews your faith a little. you start to feel, yeah, you start to feel like you're little, and it's crazy making, right? Like you start to think, wait a minute, is this what the world, like everyone actually wants this? Am I the only one who's still sane? And then you go and you're reminded like, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:21.129)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:26.821)
Yeah, you realize you're not alone.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:32.455)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:36.615)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:40.409)
They may be louder. They may be in more positions of power, but they're not the majority. Like there are many of us who are saying no.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:45.265)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, what we're enduring is like institutional gaslighting, right? So if you're just at home by yourself, like not really plugged in, not really talking to other people, not really doing anything besides like being in panic mode and, you know, drenched in your anxiety, you know, then it does feel like I'm going crazy.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.366)
uh-huh.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:11.217)
I'm the only one who's feeling this way. And I mean, that's the truth with a lot of things. Once you start to get around people and talk about it, you realize, this is actually, one, it's bigger than me, but also I'm not alone here. Other people are also feeling this. I have a question though, because like, and this is a, this just piques my curiosity, because you talked about G-Man, I'm gonna call him G-Man.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:39.331)
Yeah, my kid.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:40.412)
Yeah, your kid, his first protest and asking is this legal and all of that. And I know there's a big conversation about there have been a lot of things throughout history that were legal that were not right. So how do you broach that conversation as a parent?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:54.841)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:00.353)
It is such a challenge and I don't do a great job of it. I'll be honest. This is a place where I know I struggle because I sent him to a traditional public school and public schools are meant to that their reason for existing. Absolutely. It is to create good future citizens. And what that means is obedient citizens who will become workers. It is creating cogs for the wheel, right? That is all schools are meant to do. They're not like their primary function.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:09.449)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:14.696)
It's assimilation, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:23.932)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
That's why schools were created at the turn of the Industrial Revolution. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:30.639)
Exactly. They weren't created to educate and make children smart and curious and, you know, none of that. It's to make kids quote unquote citizens, which by what that means is exactly that, rule followers, people who know how to show up and clock in at nine and leave at five and do their work or back then clock in at six and leave at six or whatever it was. Go into the coal mines and do the thing without complaining because they learn how to listen, respect authority and listen means listen without questioning.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:35.537)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:39.09)
complacent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (11:00.176)
Yeah, not watch the clock.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:00.549)
Right? mean, right, kids, schools are very much about that. And and it's very hard to raise a child to try and teach them. No, we want you to question authority. And also, you have to function inside of the school. You have to function inside of society. You have to function inside of our house. Like there are times it is not impossible. I know people who do it. It is harder.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:19.228)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:29.155)
It is so much harder and I don't always do the best job of it. I'm trying. I try very hard to not ever use the because I said so with my parenting. I try to explain reasoning, try to get him involved in those conversations, but I drop that ball. I definitely tell him to listen to his teachers, right? Instead of always questioning his teachers because I also am a rule follower myself because I was very human conditioned to be. So I don't do the best job of that. I do.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:29.384)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:37.865)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:41.96)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:53.179)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:58.373)
Where I feel like I am trying to show up and I do a better job is helping him question systems. Sorry, hold on.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:05.8)
It's okay. One of my dogs has just been taken to whining all day for no particular fucking reason, so it's okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:14.117)
That was a 40 minute early arrival. That's okay though. It's okay. Friend one has arrived incoming. said, I swear I told her. I said, I see. Okay. Anyway, all good. Edit all that out. Where I feel like I do a better job is having him question systems. Like the bigger piece of like why interrogating
Taina Brown she/hers (13:18.407)
For the poor.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:33.264)
So you try not to say because I said so.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:42.725)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:43.886)
why are things unfair? are certain, you why am I allowed to behave this way and others can't or whatever those things are? When he's existing inside of the system, I also want him to be, I don't want him to be the trouble kid. I don't want him to be getting in trouble. And I know that inside that system, if he doesn't show up in the way that's expected, that will be problematic for him, right? Like there's consequences to that. So it's challenging. This is the stuff that's always so hard as a parent is like that balance between
Taina Brown she/hers (13:46.545)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:53.027)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:57.457)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:04.206)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:13.039)
Again, with raising a boy, I want to raise an emotionally intelligent, sensitive child who cares about others and all of that. And I don't want him to get beat up. So how do I like finding that balance of how do you do that and also exist inside of a world where a lot of parents aren't doing that same thing and there is a real consequence of potentially being beat up if you're a boy who starts crying for no reason in eighth grade, right? Like, do I want him to be able to? Yes. And I do worry about that reality. And though I don't have good answers for it,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:20.528)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:28.026)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:34.751)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:39.749)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:42.213)
because I think there is an ideal and I love the ideal. And then there's the real world and trying to navigate that that's this messy stuff,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:44.369)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, there's a reality. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a gap between the ideal and the reality. Sometimes I think the gap is bigger depending on, you know, obviously depending on like situation, situational context. I think, you know, I think obviously I'm not a parent. I have worked a lot with children and I think sometimes because I said so is warranted.
But I think the reframe of that could potentially be not because I said so, but I need you to trust me right now. you know, like this doesn't make sense. And maybe it's not right at the end of the day, but like it's right right now. And so like trust that I have like your best interest at heart or whatever. And I think.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:38.789)
We go back to the refrain, since he was a baby, we have always said, what's our number one job? And he's always learned our number one job is to keep him safe. When he was little, to keep us safe. And that is our number one job. And then we tell him our number two job is to love you. But above even that, it's to keep you safe. That is our job as parents to make sure that you survive, right? We want to love you, but sometimes we have to show up in a way that might feel a little harsh to him because it's about his safety.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:44.943)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:56.153)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:59.661)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:05.004)
Yeah, that doesn't feel like love. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:07.213)
Yeah, and we have to remind you, we love you, but the number one job is keeping you safe. And so if there's a moment where you're about to get run over by a car and I scream at you, I don't want to scream at you. That's not how I show up as a parent. That may not feel loving, but in that moment, my need for you to be safe outweighs the need for loving you. And we come back to that a lot when there's times where he'll question this, why, why, why? Because they get to that age. And sometimes instead of it being because I said so, we just always remind him what's our number one job. And he knows that now he always rolls like, me safe.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:16.196)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:32.805)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:35.985)
huh. And this is one of those times where we're older and we know that this is a safety issue and you may not be able to see that yet, but we do it. So we have to keep you safe. And so it not make sense to you, but that's our number one job. So we have to do it. It doesn't always make it better, but I do feel like contextualizing things in that way is helpful. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:40.75)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:52.013)
Yeah. Yeah. How you said you've seen people do it or not you've seen people do it. You said something about
Becky Mollenkamp (17:01.783)
It just requires more time, I think. It's easier just to say, because I said so, quit asking, go, right? Like that is easier when you can just shut down a conversation with a kid. And as parents, we can, we can assort our authority in that way or our that we can make them afraid. Ultimately, I think that's what we're doing, right? It's like the authority, the respect you're commanding is really just fear. So you can use that. And parents do. And it is easier than to sit down and have a whole conversation where it's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (17:03.555)
hahahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (17:08.005)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:19.33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:31.685)
And my shorthand again, a lot of times we go to the safety or something like that where we will sort of still be, it's kind of this because we said so, but in a way that we hope contextualizes it for him to understand a little more of the why. But I've seen parenting that's more of this gentle parenting that I respect. I just don't have patience for, which is let's sit down and have a conversation. Why do you think that might be? What do you think could happen? know, how what's your input like getting this whole dialogue, which there are times when we do that, right? For sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41.669)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:51.642)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:55.214)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:59.471)
There's also times where I don't have the patience and I just can't. I can't.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:01.453)
You know, you don't have the time all the time for that.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06.061)
Yeah, it takes a lot more time to show up in that way. And I would love to be able to say I'm the kind of parent who shows up 100 % that way. And I don't I don't there are times where it's just like, no, because we have to keep you safe. And that's it. And I don't let's the conversation ends here. Right. Like, that's not always ideal, but it is what it is. Like parenting is tough fucking shit. It is really the hardest job that anyone can ever do.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:10.754)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:16.587)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:21.11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I saw a TikTok a few days ago. It was, think, I forgot what the name of the podcast was. It was like Trash Talk Today or Trash News Today or something. I don't remember. But, and I don't remember, I don't know who this person was that was being interviewed, but I think they're a comedian maybe or an actress, like an indie actress. I don't know, but she was like, she was saying that she's anti-mothering and.
It was two hosts in her and they asked her, you anti-child or anti-mothering? And then she thought about it. She was like, no, I'm anti-mothering because way back when there was this kind of idea that you just accidentally had kids and you just figured it out. And you're just like, we got kids. We'll make it work. We'll figure it out or whatever. like.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:57.029)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17.252)
parenting, it's a mothering, but in particular parenting or in general parenting. Like it actually takes a lot more effort than that. And her argument was like that premise, like that approach of like, we'll just figure it out as we go along is like why we have assholes today who have the emotional capacity of a teaspoon, you know, who don't know how to connect with people and who are, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp (19:40.303)
I just, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:47.019)
just like hateful and selfish and can't think of anybody outside of themselves.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:56.559)
I just had a conversation with a client and we both have baby boomer parents, which most Gen X people do. And some older millennials have Gen X parents, right? Or have baby boomer parents. And talking about these differences in parenting. And it's like the greatest generation, the one before the baby boomers. And even before that, know, parenting has evolved from this, like it was not even necessarily accidental, although some to some degree, because there wasn't plan family planning as we know it now. But a lot of it was intentional in that.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:03.51)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:24.675)
we need to populate our farm with workers. And the way we do that, especially now that we don't have slavery, right, we can no longer steal humans, right? We now, we're gonna take free labor from children, right? We used to enslave people and steal their labor. Now we'll just have children and steal their labor and, or, and, or both, right, have happened over time. And as that, so that's a very different style of modeling. It was really the parents or the different style of parenting. The parents were the school teacher,
Taina Brown she/hers (20:33.005)
It's have kids. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52.579)
the enforcer, the rule, they were your boss. It wasn't about necessarily love, not that that
Taina Brown she/hers (20:55.458)
Yeah.
It wasn't about family and connection and yeah, and community. I mean, I think that could have been a part of it, but that wasn't the primary goal. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:00.901)
I mean, that could exist.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:05.86)
For some families that was very much a part of it, right? But there was definitely like, for a lot of people, family wasn't about family in the way we think of it. It was about work, right? It was practical and children were there to serve a practical purpose. They weren't there to like fulfill you and enrich your life. like, no, it's just like, I need people to work. I need hands and I'm getting older. Somebody's got to take care of this farm. Here we go, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (21:15.104)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:24.738)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:28.163)
And so that's a very different way of showing up with people. And then like it started to evolve where there was more of this like attachment to children and caring for them and also realizing like they're not gonna be workers. So if we're having kids, what are they gonna do? And trying to shepherd them towards something. Then it feels like it shifted almost more into this like educational kind of role where it's still less emotional, but more about I'm here to help guide you into something and make sure that you have a life. But it's not necessarily about like our bond per se or teaching you to
Taina Brown she/hers (21:47.074)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:52.13)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:56.577)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:57.903)
be an emotional person, or whatever, it's just like, how do I make sure you survive out in the world and that you're going to make money? I feel like it was really the baby boomers who were the first generation to start to reject a lot of that and start to say, beating your kids into submission, we're not so sure we're good with that, right? Like, it happened to us, and we're starting to say, the world's a lot different than it used to be. Like, I actually want to create humans who maybe are a little more caring. I definitely feel like Gen X has been.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:01.323)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:08.098)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:24.771)
the generation that has really changed that. Like, I feel like it's the first generation where you see this real dramatic shift from this more authoritarian style of parenting. Like, it's been degrading over time, but I felt like GenX really took it to that next level because we were all latchkey kids and felt so, like, left alone because our moms were the first ones to really go out in the workforce and all of that, that it was like, now I want to be my kid's best friend. I want to take care of them. I want them to love me. I want to love them. Like, this...
Taina Brown she/hers (22:44.683)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:50.049)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:54.333)
And I think in some ways we've gone a little too overboard perhaps. That is a discussion I see especially among white women. It's really interesting though. I just had a conversation yesterday inside of a space that's for white folks where we're dealing with our own sort of racial reckoning. And one of the things, two things that came up, one, we can go down either path. One's related to what we're talking about. One was about the protests earlier. One woman brought up, she noticed, and she was in Atlanta at the protests. Obviously it's like a less white metropolitan area than most.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:57.847)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:23.589)
most area, like some of the bigger cities in the country, I think it's probably one of the more black metropolitan areas, right? Yeah, and she was like, I noticed it was mostly white people at this protest. And I said, that's because it's ours to fix. And that was sort of the consensus, but there was an interesting, like, that's a discussion potentially of like, whose job is this to show up and all of that. And then the other piece that we talked about was kind of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:28.735)
Yeah, yeah, black and Latino for sure. And Asian.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:43.701)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:51.429)
parents, difference, white parenting versus other parenting. And it's like white culture of parenting, which obviously I center in my own understanding because that is the experience I had and have. And remembering and realizing parenting looks very different by culture as well. Like what I am talking about here, all this lineage I just discussed was all white. That's my right. So I want to say that in that. then realize like parenting also looks very different by culture. So I don't know either of those paths interest you or both.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:55.198)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:01.546)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:11.67)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:17.801)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean they both interest me. Hmm, two roads diverged in a wood. So the podcast is Trash Tuesday podcast. I I looked it up real quick. So I just wanted to make that announcement. So somebody wants to look it up. No, I had some people ask me if I was gonna go to the protest and the answer was no.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:26.437)
Yeah
okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:47.221)
And part of it is because, yeah, this is what people's problem to fix. But also part of it is like, it's not safe for people like me to go. So like, I'm not white, my wife isn't white.
We both have disabilities. We're both queer. Yeah, so there's the expectation that non-white, able-bodied, straight, know, appearing or straight, what's the word I'm looking for? Not performative, straight passing. Yeah, Cisgendered people show up to protests like this while
Becky Mollenkamp (25:10.181)
So you have a wife, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:28.429)
or a normal presenting, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:37.109)
Some people have made that choice, right? I think that's, if you're not white, then at the individual level, you have to make that choice for yourself. If you're white, it's about the communal aspect of it, right? Like it's about making sure that there are enough people there to make a statement. And so, yeah, I just.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:02.817)
I think when I was asked if I was gonna go by some white people, a part of me was also just offended because I was just like, why would you ask me that? Like, yeah, like.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:15.772)
interesting. I totally thought you were going to go in another direction. I thought you going say part of me was feeling bad that I was going to be like, no. So I think that's so interesting though that that's is this me, this white body person. That's where my brain goes of course guilt. I mean, white people love guilt. So I immediately going to like, I bet she was feeling like, oh, people are going to judge me. feel bad. No, it was the opposite. I love for you. I love that. But just so funny the different perspective because I was like, for sure you're going to say guilt.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:23.081)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:28.978)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:37.312)
No. No. No. Yeah. I think a different version of myself would have felt bad. You know? Like think if I was younger, if I was still in my people pleasing era, if I was less... Yeah. Yeah. If I was still deeply entrenched in a lot of performative type of showing up identity, I would feel bad.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:45.466)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:51.363)
Well, if you'd done less of this unlearning work that you've
Taina Brown she/hers (27:05.632)
No, I'm 43 years old. I've seen enough bullshit. I've dealt with enough bullshit. I don't feel bad about taking or asking. Sometimes I feel bad about asking for what I need, still. That's a whole different conversation. But I don't feel bad about... Yeah. I don't feel bad about taking what I need. And there's a difference between taking and asking. Like those are the context for those two.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:21.071)
Ooh, we can about that too, because I just did that.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:28.005)
I love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:34.845)
scenarios are, it can be vastly different. so, right, right. And so, yeah, so there was a part of me that was like, have you seen me? Like, do you? Right, right. And not that I thought that they expected me to be there. And so like a part of me had to be like, they're just making conversation tie, like chill the fuck out. You know, like they're just.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:35.619)
Yeah. Receiving versus asking, right? Like, yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:47.065)
What part of this says I
Becky Mollenkamp (28:02.639)
What did you feel any judgment when you said no?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:04.881)
No, no, I didn't feel any judgment at all. And that's how I knew I was talking to the right people, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:11.385)
Well, good, because there is this part of me too that's like, I would have asked you only because I just know that you care, you're passionate about change. And it's this big thing that's happening. And I wouldn't have expected you to go. wouldn't have. And again, wouldn't have judged you. I, it feels reassuring to know, like, if I had asked, although you might've thought, bitch, why are you asking me that? You wouldn't have been like, you wouldn't have said, bitch, why you asking me that? You would have at least understood.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:17.31)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:32.817)
No, no, no, no, I wouldn't have said that. I wouldn't have said that unless we were like face to face and like two margaritas in, I might have said that. Right, right, right. But yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:40.589)
And you could say it in the way that I would receive it as, yeah. Which you could say that over Zoom and I would probably, as long as I can tell you, I was asking to say it in the way that we just said. Well, it's interesting because I saw the people that we were talking with, there was also white people who were wrestling with their own issues that was challenging for me sitting on the call to not get into this place of, and this is white supremacist shit too, right? Like the,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:58.407)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:06.207)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:07.819)
Not that I'm better than you, but like some amount of judging you for like even having the question of your own safety, because I want to be like, you know, there's that part of me that's just like, fuck off. You're white. You're white. You have all this privilege. You need to use it. You should show up. I did it. Millions of people did it. Like, get over yourself. Right. Like that's where my brain goes in that same kind of way of you being like, you? Like, why would you even ask me that? And then I have to check myself to be like, wait a minute. Like.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:13.267)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:27.54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:37.251)
That's also just me, sort of these expectations that I'm putting on to people that like, you're not doing it right. You're not doing it well enough. I'm doing it better. And that's no better. It really isn't. Like, I need to give them that space to wrestle. Like, they're at a different point on their journey of unlearning and relearning. And also, like what one was talking about, like I'm in Florida. I was worried.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:42.281)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:01.157)
She's like, I know there's privilege inside of that. And yet I allowed that fear to stop me from going. And later I had all this guilt that I didn't because everything was fine at the protest. I could have been there. And I, like that immediate reaction shows up. And then I was able to soften and share with her. like, your fear wasn't unfounded because things did happen at protest. There were.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:17.863)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially that Florida sheriff who was like, if we see a brick, we're gonna shoot you. If we do this, if you do this, we're gonna kill you. It's like, dude, what the fuck?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:28.901)
People that were, there were cars that were rammed into, you know, into the protests. And obviously most notably was the one in Salt Lake City where it was not the Trumpers that showed up, not MAGA doing it, but the 50 51 peacekeepers who ended up shooting, no surprise here, a Samoan man and a Venezuelan man, neither of whom were white presenting, right? And they were the two folks who ended up getting shot. One died, the Samoan man who was apparently on Project Runway.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:56.334)
my gosh, I hadn't heard about that.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:58.553)
Yeah, but so while I was part of you, that's just like, get over it. And like me thinking like, I'm bringing my kid because I want him to know, like I even shared that, like I want him to learn, like we don't back down or whatever. And I could feel my righteousness coming up. And I have to watch that too. Right. Like all these sides of these equations, we have to watch for that stuff that comes up where like in the same way, I think I could totally feel you being like, I shouldn't have to be there. And don't ask me. Like, I think there's also that piece of like, can we soften into it to understand?
Taina Brown she/hers (31:02.844)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:10.597)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:16.935)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:26.35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:27.023)
asking. And then I say way of like, you should go get over yourself your privilege to soften and say, well, it's not like their fears were fully unbounded. And maybe they're in a different place and they have maybe we have different degrees of privilege and all sorts of things that
Taina Brown she/hers (31:32.156)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:35.966)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's what it boiled down to. was like, had to remember like, I had to remember who I was talking to and who was asking me. And it's like, this isn't a stranger on the street asking me if I'm showing up. This is someone I consider a friend, you know, like a far away friend, but like someone I consider, someone that I respect, someone that.
I have a level of care for who has a level of care for me, who has a level of respect for me. Like they're not trying to wound me or like, right, right. And so there's just that instant reaction. And I think, like you said, that is, that does boil down to a lot of just like internalized white supremacy that shows up as self-righteousness, the right way to show up or the right way to do things. And
Becky Mollenkamp (32:10.969)
Not like a MAGA person being like, why aren't you going then if you care so much? Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:31.405)
discounting or invalidating the individual journey. Like I think it's different when it's like, like if it was a white person who was always like, well, I'm afraid and I'm afraid like every single fucking time they were afraid, it's like, okay, this is, this is a habit. You're just being a menace.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:45.889)
Exactly. I had to remember I was in a room of white people who are there because they have paid money to be in space. It's called unpacking whiteness. we are, this is a group of people who are on the journey. Doesn't mean we're all in the same place on the journey. And I know because the way my reaction shows up, I still have work to do on the journey, right? So who am I to be judging other people who aren't where I'm at on the journey? But I know they're on the journey. And I think that's sort of what you're saying. It's like, if I know you're on the journey, that's what matters. But those people who are always like, no, no, no, I'm always on
Taina Brown she/hers (32:54.333)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:59.228)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:03.814)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:13.539)
Yeah, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:15.493)
They're probably not even on the journey.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:17.051)
Yeah, no, they're not. just, they're in a performative way, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:21.125)
because it reminds me of my, well, a person in my husband's family. won't say who so that they can't identify this if they hear it. But back when Michael Brown, oh, you know, when Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, which we lived a half a mile from where he was killed when the fires were going on during the protests, we saw them like, know, like it was in literally in our front yard. Like it was there. I could see it. She lived 25 miles away in the suburbs and a very in an all white neighborhood. And she was
Taina Brown she/hers (33:29.031)
But you know who you are.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:36.139)
my gosh. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:46.917)
and she was freaking out.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:51.467)
in total panic mode about what's going to happen and my God, I'm so afraid. And we were like, we're sitting here watching. I can see the fires down the road. And I'm not at your level of panic. What the? Yeah. So those kinds of things are like, even come at me with that stuff. That's the kind of person where I have a lot less ability to have that kind of conversation. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:00.636)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:04.839)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:09.477)
Yeah, that's sympathy and that empathy. Yeah, yeah, definitely. think...
I think also just having like, I always, for me, like always go back to just trying to stay curious. Cause curiosity kind of keeps judgment at bay. And so if I, if I, if I'm feeling, and I've said this before on the podcast, I'm an incredibly judgy person. I'm sorry. I like, I know that about myself and I try to be better. Like I'm constantly trying to be better, but I am an incredibly judgy person.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:27.279)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:45.788)
And so my tactic for myself has always been to try to remain as curious as possible in order to keep that judgmental side of myself in check. Because if I'm asking questions, I don't have time to be judgmental. I don't have the headspace to be judgmental. And that allows me to see the other person as a person and not as an enemy or someone to dissect or...
Becky Mollenkamp (35:12.1)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:14.746)
an encounter to be superior in or... Right, right. so, right, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:19.597)
or for me to fix my project, I'll make you better, right? You're right when you're asking. And to be fair, that person didn't say it to me, so I wasn't engaged in that conversation. They said it to my husband, so I didn't hear about it. But if I had been in person with that person at the time, I think I would have been incredibly judgy. I would like to think that now, maybe, I could have that internal fortitude to actually be.
inquisitive and just say, well, what is it about it that has you afraid? You're pretty far away. Like what's, what's the fear about and see what that conversation could lead to. But if I'm being fully honest, even now, I have a hard time because, know, just knowing the person and yeah, voting habits, patterns.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:46.959)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:50.555)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:56.587)
You know the person, you know their biases, you know. Yes, yes, it's definitely harder to be, to stay in that kind of neutral ground when there's context. But I think that's, that context is what also allows you to get, put yourself, like not put yourself, to like let yourself off the hook and be like, no, this person is just.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:22.041)
Yeah, to remember that not even every fight, but every conversation isn't mine to have.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:26.561)
Right, exactly, and that's the other thing, it's like...
I don't have the energy for this. So just go do you. go stay in your panic mode, stay in your anxiety, stay in your fear. I'm going to be over here doing my thing. Like just leave that, leave that out of my space because I don't have the energy for this. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:32.933)
Correct. Honor your capacity.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:46.979)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:50.607)
Well, when I think about to just think about people of color participating or not in those rallies, I can also feel this feeling of like, I could see where some white folks, I don't think people who are on the journey necessarily, but those who might've been there in a more performative way or, and or, just like, this is just like beginning of their reckoning maybe, like they're just having their way. And you know what? I have to remember not to judge that because mine started with Michael Brown, but there were many people who started long before that, right? Like just because I was,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:10.358)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:16.664)
Yeah. Yeah. Everybody starts somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:19.813)
pre George Floyd, like doesn't mean that I'm better than right? Like, and that feeling can get in there. But anyway, for those people, I could see someone who might be like, well, you know, I'm out here because I want to protect immigrants or whatever, and they're not here. They don't care. Right? Like I could sense that that could be. Right. Right. You know what I mean? But like people who are like, why is this all white folks showing up? Are we the only ones who care? I could see how there might be that sentiment of
Taina Brown she/hers (37:35.357)
you mean the immigrants that are being disappeared by ICE?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:46.862)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:48.517)
as a thing that someone might tap into. And even more damaging is the people on the other side of that equation who might use that as ammunition to be like, they don't even care. don't even, you know. And I just think it's important if there's anyone who might be in that place, just to understand that piece that we're talking about. it's first of all, it's our fight. And secondly, also, we have to remember privilege in all things and safety and where again, yeah, if you're worried about ice getting you right now, you are in hiding as you should and need to be.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:58.147)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:16.16)
Yeah, yeah, you're trying not to be in public. I have been telling my wife and I have been trying to do this and we've been telling a lot of our friends who are non-white, like, don't go anywhere alone in public. Like, make sure there's always somebody with you because outside of ICE, right, like not all of my friends are immigrants, but like outside of that, just like people are out here just killing people. Like there was a fucking political assassination.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:18.831)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:44.101)
Right? that's scary. One second. I'll be right back. I got another kid.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:46.794)
It's pure pandemonium around here. Anyway, sorry.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:51.405)
But that's okay. And I think it also just goes back to what we were talking about earlier about like, white supremacy says that there's one right way to show up. And just because people weren't showing up at the protest doesn't mean that they weren't showing up in other ways.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:03.215)
Yes, someone brought up in that conversation yesterday, Deepa Iyer, social change map and Albert, because she was feeling some of that guilt that comes up of not participating and letting the fear win and all. And then she was like, and also I try to remember that may be true in this instance that I let the fear win or whatever, but these are all the, I show up in all these other ways. I am showing up. I'm doing all of these other things. Her very work is grounded in a lot of this sort of activism work. And so was like, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:07.448)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:11.494)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:20.621)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:27.084)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:29.177)
We don't all have to show up on the front lines. Those front-line responders, yes, it's important, but it's not the only way. And while I think it was powerful that there were so many millions of people that came out, and I do think that that's really important. I think just for the public dialogue, the media reception, all that, it's really important. And it's only one tiny thing. while it does make a difference, it's not the thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:31.147)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:47.672)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:53.196)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:56.824)
It's not the only thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:57.935)
Yeah, and it's not gonna be, in and of itself, it's not the thing to change things.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:00.953)
Right, right, right. It's more of a statement, right? It's more of an act of solidarity for the people who can't show up to be encouraged and to be affirmed and validated in the ways that they are showing up. And so maybe there weren't that many Latino people there, but maybe they were giving rights to people, feeding people. You know what I mean? Like there's so many ways to show up outside of just being at the protest.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:25.391)
Well, Anna, I it's important for those Latina people, Latino people to see that, right? Like, I don't know, I'm curious on your perspective, does that do anything for you seeing the millions of white folks that are out there protesting in a way? You know, I go back to the pussy hats, I go back to the Women's March and all the ways that that fell short and was problematic. And then I think that's also part of what comes up inside of some of these liberal conversations around like,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:31.767)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:48.674)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:54.837)
I understand why this is our fight, why people of color don't need to be there, in many ways shouldn't be there. And does that messaging feed into, again, some of those same problematic issues of exclusion and separation? so I'm curious about your perspective on that. Do you receive it? This is just you. I'm not asking you to be representative of but just for you, did you receive that in a way of like, it feels good to know there are this many people out there that care?
Or does it feel anyway to you again, sort of like this performative pussyhat stuff?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:29.216)
It's both. It's both and, right? There's a definite, yeah, yeah. There's definitely a part of me that feels good. And I'm just like, oh, because every time you hear, oh, we're doing mass protests, it's like, how's it really gonna be? Like, who's really gonna show up? Like, are white people gonna like do the thing? Are they actually gonna do the thing? And so there is a part of me that.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:32.481)
as much as the mind.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:55.766)
It felt good to see how far reaching that day of protest was, how many people were. I saw something, I think it was in Maine or Massachusetts, where it was a children's parade, a children's protest. And it was beautiful. It's beautiful to see things like that. But there's the cynical, judgy side of me that's like, OK, what happens after? What are you doing when you go home? Are you calling out your father-in-law?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:24.047)
Hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:25.239)
And so, so yeah, it's both and.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:28.857)
I brought that up yesterday too, that part of like, you go to these protests and then you see the people taking their selfies and filming and then like putting it on social media. And there is that part of you that's like the skeptic in me too. And listen, I took a picture of my kid, I sent it to you because I just was so proud of him for his first protest. But it wasn't, I didn't really put that out there. But I did, like there is this part of me and this is what we talked about.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:45.877)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:54.405)
the stories that we can tell ourselves of like, I'm documenting this because I want the world to see how many people are out. And there is that part of me that that is truthful. I wanted to make sure that like, hey, people see like even in this red district, which I contextualize it like this is a 60 40 Trump district. There's thousands of people out here. And for the most part, we've been getting a lot of honks and like it's been really positive, right? Only a few people kind of being threatening or whatever. And wanting to have that be a part of the larger conversation, right? As we're trying to tell this story.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:01.111)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:21.355)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:23.385)
I want to contribute to that narrative. But then if I get real honest with myself, how much of that is also, I want the credit, right? Like I want people to know I was there, gold star, pat on my back, right? Like, and you see everyone sort of doing that. And there's no way, I don't think to fully parse that out for yourself and get to a point where can be fully, if you can get fully honest to say like, no, it was 100 % the documentation, nothing to do with the like, because that pretty shit, that's all still there. That's all part of the white supremacy culture.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:30.635)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:39.978)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:48.179)
Yeah, it's okay if you got a praise kink.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:51.501)
Yeah, right. It's just hard of like, yeah, I see that. I also the cynical part of me is like, are you here because you care or because you want the selfie and you want the gold star? exactly. And the answer is, can it not for most people? I'm sure there are people for whom it's only the gold star, right? And there's probably people for whom it's not at all about the gold star. There's plenty of like folks that I saw who didn't have their cameras out at all. Right. Especially a lot of the older folks. They were there because I think their Medicare is threatened. So again, even that it's still about them.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:01.749)
Yeah, and the answer is both.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:08.631)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:14.603)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:21.248)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:21.455)
probably. But yeah, like, I don't think you can fully separate that out, right? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:25.297)
You can't, you can't. Because it's part of being human, right? To be known, to be seen, to be recognized for who you are and what your needs are. And that's totally fucking okay. And I think when we get into conversations about, are you doing it because you want to be recognized? Like, obviously, it's a habitual pattern and there's no depth if nothing happens after the fact.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:29.765)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:49.739)
then that's a different story. if it's a person or group of people who are showing up and are posting and being really vocal about what they're doing, but they are also doing other things, that's fine. Again, it goes back to what we were saying earlier. White supremacy says that there's one right way to do things. And if we want to fully disentangle ourselves from that idea, that tenet of white supremacy, then we have to be okay with.
people showing up and wanting the recognition for showing up.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:23.717)
Yeah, or whatever brought them to the journey because that judgy part of me shows up where it's like, you care now that it's your Medicaid or Medicare that's affected potentially or your social security, but like you didn't care before that. And my own awakening started when it was outside my door. Should have been before that, right? Right. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:26.144)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:32.307)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:38.655)
Yeah, yeah. Whatever the entry point is, you're here now. You're here now. So how do we come together? It may not have been the best way to get you here, but you're here now. You're here now.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:47.172)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:51.299)
Right. And that's where I think the left can cannibalize itself by getting so righteous in like, well, that's not a good enough reason or you're not doing it right or you came to this late so you don't count or whatever the right and the millions of ways that we do that instead of saying exactly that, like, you know what? We're here now. This is where we are. We're all here. I'm glad you're here. I don't care if it took you until yesterday to get here. You're here now. And like, let's march forward together.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:55.1)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:02.099)
Yeah. What is a good enough reason to want liberation?
Becky Mollenkamp (47:21.241)
And if we could have more of that and I'm saying it, feels so Pollyanna that I'm like, and yet I do really believe it.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:29.801)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe it too and I think...
Yeah, I don't care how people get here. I care what they do once they get here. Once they're here, what do you do now? Like, how are you tying up your liberation with mine? How are you making those connections? How are you embedding yourself into community, right? Because if you get here and it stays about you, then we have a fucking problem.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:59.993)
Yeah. Well, and like going back to the parenting, it's like, OK, I'm here. But if I'm not integrating it into that, my parenting, I'm not integrating into my work. And I'm not saying it's all at once, because for me, that's been a process. Like it started on this personal journey because it felt like it was outside my door and this awakening of like all the ways I had fallen short. had to deal with all the guilt and all the bullshit. Right. And then eventually it moved towards, now, I can't just keep my work and personal life separate. Like, that's right. This has to be a part of
Taina Brown she/hers (48:20.021)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:29.389)
my work as well and what does that look like? And that became its own long journey. And then, you know, and more recently, as my kid gets older and is starting to understand more and can have more complex questions and conversations, I am more and more beginning to get to that place of examining my parenting and still recognizing all the ways I'm falling short there and that that's going to be a journey. And so like, I think it is you, your entry point doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how long it took, all of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:31.413)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:44.873)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:56.575)
And like it matters what you do moving forward, but also knowing that that will continue to be a journey and that expectation that you're supposed to like immediately. And all the places and all the ways like that's not real either. That's that same perfectionism. So like we also have to give some permission and space to say, OK, you're here. You have the issue you care about. You're doing your thing. I want to see growth, but I also don't expect it to be like you're going to get it all tomorrow because I know I have so much to do still. Right, we all do. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:03.198)
Get it perfect.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:07.882)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:16.617)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. my god, so much. So much. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think this was a...
Becky Mollenkamp (49:25.433)
Okay, well, anything else? You know, I'm in a chaos home right now with kids starting to infiltrate my space, so I probably need to make sure they don't kill each other.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:33.243)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think this was a good conversation. if we were coming up on our one year. So I don't know what we're going to do to celebrate that.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:41.543)
I know. I don't know when that is. I feel like we may already be there. We just haven't done anything with it yet. yeah. Yeah. So we need to have a special like one of these, maybe our 55th or sixth. I think we might be at our 50th, maybe our 60th. We should do something. We should do something. I don't know what. Talk about our favorite moments. I don't know. Talk about the plans for the future. I don't know. We'll think of something. We'll talk. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:47.132)
Yeah, we I mean, we've definitely had more than 52 episodes, but the official launch.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:57.95)
I lost track.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:05.468)
We'll think of something. It'll probably be messy.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:09.423)
I'm sure this was this feels like a very I'm to have to do some editing on this, I think, because it was too messy. I like the ones where I to do really anything. no, I just I feel a little too vulnerable putting out all of the chaos. But this has been great. I had something I want to say to you and now I've lost it. So that's OK. Sure, it'll be fine. Before you said 50 whatever. Go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:14.1)
Let's just raw dog it.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:28.66)
All right, well, I well, well. And I was gonna say, hey, I have co-working for the coaches circle in like five minutes.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:37.001)
And I won't be able to be there because I'm taking six kids to pool. I think I would rather do the co-working. I wish the kids were going to the pool with some other adults. You want to take six nine year olds to the pool? It'll be OK. I'm actually in my swimsuit, too, which I don't know that's going to be it's going to be great. And that lovely mom who just dropped off a kid brought a whole thing of watermelon. How nice was that? It looks it makes the village right. And it is lovely.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:39.24)
Indicates to the pool. You want to switch places? No.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:54.12)
It'll be nice.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:59.63)
perfect, perfect, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:04.045)
as much as I don't like being social and I don't like other parents and I don't like other people's kids and all that stuff. Like it has been lovely as he's getting older to start to cultivate some community around parenting and finding those with whom we kind of have some shared beliefs and and shared parenting styles and all of that. And then developing some of that trust to be able to like let them drop off their kids or drop my kid off. And that has been really nice. So try to the parts of it that are. But I will need I will need a serious nap this afternoon.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:13.352)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:22.964)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Try to have as much fun as you can. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:32.431)
Thankfully, my kid has baseball practice with my husband after the pool. So while they're gone, I will be decompressing probably with some great British drama. All right. Well, thank you for doing this and all of the chaos today and always. All right. Bye.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:36.275)
so you can decompress.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:42.525)
I've had it.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:46.368)
Mm-hmm. Today and always.