Flesh + Blood

Join Ryan and Sicco for a passionate 40th-anniversary celebration of Paul Verhoeven’s brutal, chaotic medieval epic Flesh and Blood (1985). The two dive deep into the film’s unique place in Verhoeven’s career as the transitional work between his raw Dutch style and the hyper-stylized American films that followed, exploring its grimly realistic portrayal of medieval life, its total lack of heroes, the central role of religion and superstition, Jennifer Jason Lee’s fearless performance as the cunning noblewoman Agnes, Rutger Hauer’s frustrated attempt to play a heroic mercenary, and the chaotic, dangerous production that tested everyone involved. They also touch on the film’s influence on later works, its satirical take on the Church, and why it remains a fascinating, ahead-of-its-time cult classic despite its initial commercial disappointment.

Creators and Guests

Host

Ryan Rebalkin

Host

Sicco

What is The Director's Chair Network?

Join Ryan and many featured guests and other hosts as they break down and review a variety of directors and their films!
So far, this podcast has featured films from Edward Zwick, John Hughes, Brian De Palma, and Michael Mann.
Soon, we will feature Edgar Wright, Sam Peckinpah, Paul Verhoeven, and David Fincher!

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[Music]
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Welcome back ladies and gentlemen to the director's chair. Today we talk for
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Hovind again and for once I am joined by the master himself. I am joined by Ryan.
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Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time out to uh watch Flesh and Blood with me.
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Oh, it was fantastic. Thanks for having me on. And and if I want to say uh Sequo, thanks for agreeing to join the
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network and covering Paul's movies. And uh yeah, I'm I'm really excited that you
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decided to do this cuz to take the time and effort out of your life, of anyone's life, to do this silly little hobby that
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we do. It's I do appreciate it. So, thank you for carrying this mantle. And before we get going, I have questions
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for you. So questions. Why? Yeah. Why Paul? Why did you choose him?
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Oh, it's it was easy. It was easy. Um, if we're talking
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director's chair, we're going to be talking, you know, the Mount Rushmore of directors and he's in that conversation.
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Okay. And he's Dutch. So I you know I had I
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can lend some expertise in some of his idiosyncrasies peculiarities perhaps
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some of the artistic reasons part artistic choices he's made uh why
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certain certain things were written in a certain way this mo this movie is seinal
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in that sense because uh it is really the clash between his Dutch movie style
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and the American movie style he's about to develop. So, I'm Yeah, I'm I'm really excited to talk about this film.
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Well, that's awesome. Now, did you tell the listeners on your other episodes that you are you're you're Dutch as
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well, correct? Yes. Yes. I I admit I am Dutch. Okay. Well, good. That's That's amazing.
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That's awesome. And that's why you picked Paul as well, cuz he's a fellow countryman. He's he's uh someone that's
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he and my understanding is we live in the same city. Oh, wow. Look at you. My wife studied at the exact same
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university he did. She was in the the same sorority, the same student club he
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was in. Oh wow, that's amazing. Minurva. So that that's cool because he is
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probably the most popular or well known. Is he the most well-known director to
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come from your country? Uh probably Y Bondmore. Oh,
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because of speed and because of Twister. But Paul is also very well. How do you say how do you say his name again? or
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Yand. Yeah, I see you're saying it properly. Jan Deont. Yeah, with with a
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Jan Deont. I know Jan Deont. Yabond, of course. Yont. And uh how do you say Paul's name better? How do you say it?
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Fairhuven. Verhovven. Okay, that's better. I like that. Paul Verhovven.
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Fairhuven actually means something. Oh, huven means reshotting like horses.
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Hoof. Oh, so verhuven means basically re-shotting a horse.
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That's so at some point one of his ancestors must ancestors must have worked as a um a vet or or as a smith or
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someone who makes horseshoes. Now, before we get into discussing the movie, what I do, of course, when I cover uh
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I've covered Edward Zwick and I I'm now just about to wrap up Michael Man films and uh what I ask my my guests is like,
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you know, what's their history with the director? You know, like what's their fandom of the director? And can I ask
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that question to myself? I don't want to usurp. You're the host, but I I just want to geek out a little bit. You have cute questions, so let's cover
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them first before we uh launch into the actual episode. It's fun. So, uh, yes, I just want to give your
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audience, uh, an idea of my history with Paul. I got to keep calling him Paul because this is easier to pronounce. So,
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uh, Mr. Paul, he now, of course, I saw Robocop when it came out in ' 87. I was 12 years old when it came out, and I will never
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forget my dad rented it for a birthday party for me, my friends, and I remember forget
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Yeah, I know. We're watching this movie, and I remember my dad watched it with me. I was like, is he going to turn it
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off? He never did. I think he liked it too. And it's awesome. Yeah, it's I remember trouble
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watching this as a kid thinking this is the greatest. Like I couldn't believe I was watching this incredibly violent,
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brutal, amazing. Like because it's it's like a combination of superhero, mind-blowing,
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thoughtprovoking, powerful anything you've ever seen.
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Anything I've ever seen before. And I I fell in love with Robocop and I saw the sequel. Satire.
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Yeah. I love it. And even as a 12-year-old, I got the satire. Like, I I was a pretty savvy movie go at a young age. I'm not bragging, but I I
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understood what what was being said that this was over the top. I even understood this was like almost cartoonish and that
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it was I'll buy that for a dollar. Yeah. So, I saw Robocop. Then when Total Recall came out, I was only 15 years
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old. And this is back in the day. I think they might still be this way, but this is back in the day when they really, of course, I'm a big Arnold fan.
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Love the action movies. I couldn't believe the same director of Robocop was doing an Arnold movie. I remember being very excited about that, but I also
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remember thinking I was too young to see this in the theaters because back then they really did like what's your age?
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They were strict. They were strict. Yeah. And so I bought these days four year olds can watch porn
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on the internet, but we were barred from movies that were, you know, I remember I bought tickets for I can't
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remember the movie, but I bought you I did the classic, bought tickets for one film, walked into this film. So I'm in the theater. That's Yeah. And they I
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remember they were going up and down the aisle checking people's tickets and they didn't go to me and my buddy at the time because we looked a little bit older
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than our 15year-old self. So they didn't they thought we passed for 18. They're they're probably looking for 8year-olds,
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12y olds and stuff like that. So of course loved that. Saw it in the theaters. Basic Instinct comes out. Now
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I admit I did not see Basic Instinct in the theaters because of its um subject matter. I remember thinking I don't know
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if I can watch this movie. Well I I was religious growing up. Don't forget. And
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yeah. Yeah. And the difference is I was used to Paul Ferhovven. Yeah. Well, of course I was used to what he produces. I mean,
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Basic Instinct is really the first kind of more Dutch American movie he's making because it's
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it's for adults. It's for, you know, it's and it's film noir. And I can't wait to cover Basic
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Instinct. It's actually my favorite by far my favorite movie. Well, and I
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love Sharon and I love Michael Douglas and it's a it's a great movie and I enjoyed I watched it on VHS and I did
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enjoy it on VHS and then of course Show Girls comes out. Saw that on VHS. I don't want to waste your time with all this. I'll just be very quick. So saw
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Show Girls on VHS, saw Starship Troopers on VHS and of course I saw Hollow Man. So I enjoyed all these but I admit I
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haven't seen his last three. So I'll be curious to hear those being covered and talked about. Uh but I So that's a good
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run. Yeah, that's right. So those are that's a good run though if you think that's quite the run of movies. Um even show
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girls though was so lambasted at the time. It it's it's got its own quirky
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crazy fun campy cult following charm. And uh I think I think it does. It's worth listening to the
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episode. In fact, I don't know if you have listened to it yet. It just dropped. I can't wait to hear it. And uh I will
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I'll just say this with Paul. It seems like so far with everything I've seen of his and now we're going to talk of
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course about flesh and blood. You're never bored. Never bored ever. Can you make sure of
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that? Yeah. Flesh and blood. Let's talk about it. Okay. Quick synopsis, right?
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Um, it's about mercenary Martin who is played by Rutgar Howard and he's chosen
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by his band of misfits for religious reasons to be their leader because
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they've just conquered a city for their boss Arnoldi and the guy Welches. The
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guy doesn't pay them. He just kicks him out of the city and they're just broke. So, they vow revenge and they uh
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basically steal one of his baggage cards. Lo and behold, uh the daughter of
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the future daughter-in-law of this Arnoldi is in that baggage car and she's in big trouble because this is a bunch
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of scum she's now with. Through shenanigans, they find themselves in a
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castle and they find themselves besieged by their former boss Arnold Feny and uh
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his son. Nastiness ensues in this dark and miserable and horrible apocalyptic
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movie. If you've watched a lot of Tarantino, Tarantino loves Paul Vuova. You can tell
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from his films because uh yes, The Hateful Eight is based on The Thing, but
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in part it is also based on this one because The Hateful Eight is famous for
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one thing. Same here. There are no heroes in this film at all. There is not
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even the damsel in distress who turns out to be quite diabolical.
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And I enjoyed it just for that because in that sense it this film is just way ahead of his time and way over the top.
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And it's perfectly understandable that this was not a direct commercial success
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because obviously once got into the theater build as a as a medieval action
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movie kind of like Conan the Barbarian or whatever it is this is not a onenote movie and people were were wanting to
9:39
watch a onenote story. Right. And guess we have flesh and blood. And blood. Yeah. Well, this came out 40
9:46
years ago. 40 years ago this came out. Number one. That's crazy. This is the 40th anniversary celebration. So, we're
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doing the 40 We should title this 40th year celebration of Flesh and Blood. Now, when you uh asked me to
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celebrate, we will cuz I love this movie. I thought it was awesome. It is fun. I I had a great time and I I
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I can't wait to talk more about it. Uh I hadn't heard of this film. From the plague and all.
10:09
Yeah, I hadn't se I hadn't heard of this film. So, when you asked me to to come on your season and you gave me the pick,
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I can't remember. Did I pick it or did you assign it? I honestly don't remember. I sold it on the fact that this was just
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probably uh for Hovind's most violent film and it was just filled with full
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frontal nudity and all he said was, "Stop. You have me at full frontal nudity."
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I did say that. Sounds like my humor. Yeah. Now, the question is, which version did you watch? Did you watch the
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theatrical version or did you watch uh the director's cut? I watched the
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director's cut, which is way more fun. I'm pretty certain I saw the director's cut cuz I saw I saw everything.
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Oh, then you saw then you see Jennifer Jason Lee's Bush. Well, jeez. Yes. Yes, I did see her
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pelvic area. That was in full display. Yes. So, I saw the director's cut. Yeah. And I was No, here's Yeah. Yeah.
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She's 23. Jennifer Jason Lee is 23 at this film. And I It's interesting. I wonder like I wonder what Jennifer thinks of doing this film today or or
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what she thinks of the film. And she had high praise for Paul and the film and experience. In fact, she wanted I mean
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we can get right down to it. There was a se Okay, I'll tell you. I'm all over the place as per normal. Ryan's all over the
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place. I have a lot of thoughts. I don't take notes. So I my my my brain my brain goes all over. So Jennifer was great in
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this film and she was one of her earlier roles and this is a big role for her. She's a young actress. She hadn't done
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too much before this film. So bless her heart and her brave heart to really to take on such a huge demanding and
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controversial brutal uh role and embrace it. She actually wanted the um the you
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know say sexual assault scene for I you know we should do trigger warning. I I don't like to be s silly about that, but
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there is trigger warnings. Listen, if you're listening to a podcast about film by Paul Verhovven, there are several things
12:05
that you are going to get. One is rape. Okay, sure. You
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every movie he you're going to get a strong female protagonist because Paul Verhovven um likes his characters
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strong. He likes his women strong. He likes his women powerful and opinionated and goal oriented. And in that sense, it
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was talking about Jennifer Jason Lee and why Paul Verhovven cast her. And Paul Verhovven is like David Lynch,
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like Stanley Kubri, an absolute master, an absolute expert at casting just the
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right people for a film. Always works out.
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Isabelle Hupair in L or is Jennifer Jason Lee here. She's a complete unknown.
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You won't expect this from a 23-year-old, but she carries this movie because she is a very strong female
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lead. I mean, she's basically the central character of the movie, and she's in a romantic triangle and it
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has to and she doesn't know or like either man. They're both violent and and
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horrible people in their own way, right? One is an aristocrat who will, you know,
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uh, gladly send people to their deaths and gladly poison people with the plague. And the other is a uncou rogue
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of a mercenary who has done nothing but rape, murder and pillage all his life
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and he sees something pretty and shiny in in Jennifer Jason Lee's role which is Agnes and he wants it and be and he
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tastes it and then he wants nothing else and he becomes obsessed. So she is the pivotal character between the two and
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she even up to the end doesn't decide right and she has to sell this and that
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was a big problem on set and that was a big problem for Jennifer Jason Lee as Paul Verhovven explains at some point he
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says well I was not used to the process American actors go through I wasn't used
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to American actors at all because he's used to Dutch or or you know European
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actors and they very different method. Paul Verhovven would say, "Okay, in this scene, I want you to look surprised and
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then when when someone says that word, I want you to look shocked." Something like that or I want you to be angry here
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or I want you to be this or that or the other. An American actor will want to know the motivation, but why am I
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shocked? Why am I angry? What am I feeling? Where's my character going? Can I play with this? Most American actors
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are used to a lot of leeway in interpreting their character. that
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doesn't play with someone like Verhovven who's a complete and utter autocrat. He's an author director. He writes his
14:49
own stuff or has it written for him. He puts a big Paul forhovven stamp on everything. It's his vision. He has it
14:55
in his head. And whatever is in his head must come to fruition. And if you want something else, well, that's too bad for
15:02
you. He will just wal all over you. And if you won't be walled over, he will just shout over you. He's one of those
15:08
megaphone guys, right? And if if he can't shout over you, take you apart in a room. He's done that to Sharon Stone.
15:14
In fact, people would say, "Yeah, yeah, Sharon Stone would get uh problematic every few weeks." So then Paul would
15:20
take her in a room, shout at her for about two hours, and then she would be fine for a couple of weeks. Basically,
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that's his directing style. That's how he directs his actors. They're basically cattle to him. And so here is this European
15:33
production because that's what this is. It's Orion Pictures. They are the distributor.
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They're paying 5.5 million which is more money than he's ever had for any movie cuz Soldier of Orange was his most
15:44
expensive film and that was 3.5 million and the only reason he got that much money was because because of the royal
15:51
family because the subject of the film was Eric Hazel of Rulma which is a Dutch
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hero you know a soldier of orange basically and very had very close ties
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to the royal family. So when they were going to do a biopic on him, money was easy. They rolled out the red
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carpet for him, right? Wow. He got three and a half million. It was just the most expensive Dutch film at
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that point. Nice. Right. And it was a massive success. So it's it was all fine. But up until then,
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if you wanted if you were a Dutch filmmaker, you would apply for government money. You would get a grant because uh film is considered art and uh
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art has grant money. It's basically uh you get you're you're sort of a
16:34
government employee in a sense, a contractor. You work for the government, you uh spend the money on your film, you
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produce the film, and then you paid back from the proceeds of the film if it's successful. If it's not successful,
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that's fine too. Then you have Paul for Hovind, which has played them all his life. Paul Verhovven is a commercial
16:52
successful director. He's great and they hated him for it. So, one of the reasons
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he's dipping his toe in American films is because getting grant money is becoming more and more problematic and
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he can only get 400,000 maximum and then he has to find commercial means
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to get get money, get financing. So, here he has Orion Pictures who's trying to buy him, who's trying to get him to
17:16
the United States to make their slop and he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, I don't know." And so, he's
17:23
dithering. So they just keep throwing more and more money at him. And at some point he says, "Well, okay, let me tell
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you this. I had this old TV show called Flores. It was really successful. It was
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a kind of a cross between Ivanho and Robin Hood." And so what I would like to do is make a realistic film about um
17:41
medieval times and have this Flores character in it. We will write the story. Don't worry about it. Just get me
17:48
the money and I'll I'll work the production here. And then they needed at some point they needed castles etc. They
17:55
found that in Spain. So this became a American, Dutch, Spanish co-production
18:01
with contracts. So it had to have x amount Dutch actors, x amount Spanish actors, European actors and a bunch of
18:07
Americans because Orion had people on the contract and said, "Hey, this is all great and everything, but we have Bruno Kirby and we have, you know, a bunch of
18:14
people you should just work with, you know, and so who do you want for your lead actress?" And all for Hob was, you
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know, I really like that girl from Fast Times at Richmond High cuz she looks pretty in a in she looks
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pretty in a bikini and I need her to be nude and they're like, they you need her to be nude. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, we
18:34
did see your Dutch film, so I guess there will be some nudity. But we and in their back of their minds they're thinking you know what we'll just the
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NPA will just take care of that but we've got Paul for Hovind because at that time in the early 80s as you know
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um there were good scripts everywhere there was money thrown around to make
18:54
movies because there was a market but they didn't have talent they didn't have directors they didn't have cinematographers so they had to get
19:00
those people preferably from outside so they you know they needed talent so here
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you go we're going to get Paul Owen, he's going going to let him make his movie. And then he came up with this.
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And so he's directing Jennifer Jason Lee and she just doesn't get it. She's just looking at him like he's an alien from
19:17
out of space. It's like, what are you talking about? I have a character. But who does she really like? Is she really
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just, you know, does she want Steven and is she just plating uh Martin? or does
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she really like Martin and is she just happy to be with Martin but she still has to be a lady or what is what's my
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motivation here and that's what Paul Fovven is trying to convey it's like no this is a woman who is doing anything
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and everything to survive that's right this is survival of the fittest Darwin
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this is the middle ages and everyone could die at any moment because you could get the plague or you could get
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the chop and this is an aristocratic woman So she's relatively protected all
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her life. I mean yeah and you have to remember this is a 14 15 year old right because that's the year around that time
20:08
you get you know uh you get married it's like your father finds a suitable partner for you who will uh elevate the
20:16
family. It's aristocratic those all most of those marriages are arranged. So she's in an arranged marriage with the
20:22
son of Andini who has just reconquered his city. You have to assume this is set
20:27
in Italy. This is Renaissance Italy, right? When they were cities were fighting each other and well, you know,
20:33
um sometimes these cities would rebel and kick out their aristocrat and they would be a republic all of a sudden. And
20:40
so this former aristocrat would be like, "Yeah, that's great. I'm hiring an army." That's what those people were doing. Martin and the bunch, they were
20:47
just a hired army. And they would reconquer your city for you. And he promised them looting. It's like, "Okay,
20:53
I'm gonna let you loot the city." And then of course he was like, "Wow, we're
20:58
having success here. I have my city back. Maybe that looting is not such a good thing because you know I'm not
21:04
going to have much of a city after they're done burning, raping, pillaging the place. So hey, let's just kick them
21:10
out." And that's what happened. And then they kidnapped this this poor Agnes. And
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so she's thrown in this mix between these these violent forces. And the only
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way she can cope with that is just using her feminine WS, right? Verhovven is trying to explain this to
21:27
this 23-year-old who just did a movie about a high school, right? Yeah. Well, what I loved about
21:34
her character was, you know, it was funny the uh the rape scene, which is of course the big scene. This is the scene
21:40
that probably was the most um this is only the second or third rape you see on screen.
21:46
They're building the city. Women are being torn out. dresses left and right, but they're quick. You know what I mean?
21:52
They're kind of quick flashes here, there. They're like, "Yeah, this is this is a gang rape, what she's going through." And it's it's
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she's being tormented, right? And she what I what I found um I
22:05
understand maybe a lesser audience might not understand what she's doing because there's some criticism, I guess, where people are like, "Oh, she's enjoying
22:10
it." But no, she realized by she had two options, fight, scream, punch, which is
22:16
fine. like in her fight orflight mode, she decided, I'm going I'm going to
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I'm going to give in, so to speak, to lessen the violence that might be afflicted upon me. And and it worked in
22:27
that moment. It worked for her. And then we find later as the movie goes on that Martin starts to truly he admits at the
22:34
end that the only thing he ever cared for was in his life was her. So in a turn of events, we find out his heart
22:42
was always ended up being with her after all. And of course, we know the uh Jack character uh what's his name? Um played
22:49
by Tom. Yeah. So, Steven, the uh the geeky uh educated um noble
22:55
the Renaissance man basically. He's like a Yeah. Which is great. And I love and I
23:02
uh I love there's not so much I want to say about the film, but I want to get this part over with regarding just Jennifer's character. What I what I
23:08
found was at first, you know, Yes. is shocking and it's um I mean obviously watching that assault on screen it's
23:14
never you shouldn't enjoy it as a viewer but what you're seeing is yes is this was more than common and I know that's
23:22
what Paul wanted to show was that the these this time and place of our world's history and unlike the film showing
23:29
maybe like a Robin Hood type film or who knows what that this kind of activity was brutal and this was spoils of war uh
23:37
like they didn't have like it's like if You didn't have money, but you had prisoners. What did you do with the prisoners? Right. They're more fun to
23:43
have alive than dead, so to speak. You make sport with the women. Yeah. You make sport. They're they're less than they're they're
23:51
bash your head against a wall. Okay. For juxtapose this scene.
23:56
You have the rape, right? which is central to the film because uh you get to know Agnes'
24:04
character under duress and you know she basically during the rape she seduces
24:10
her rapist to survive because she knows what's going to happen after she's been
24:15
raped by the first guy. You know the rest is going to have her she's going to be used up and they will just discard
24:21
her. the women will probably kill her in night because they're jealous because, you know, their men want her more than
24:27
they want them or something cuz you see these camp followers uh around and they're as horrible as the
24:33
men, right? These are just basically u uncou rabble and this highborn noble
24:40
lady falls into their hands. So, what's what are they going to do? They're going to make it they're going to mess it up.
24:45
But there's another scene later on in the film, actually towards the end when
24:51
Steven through something that um well really tests your
24:57
uh suspension of disbelief. Um after an explosion is thrown into a
25:03
tree and falls into the hands of that same group and they treat him
25:11
like they treated her. Right. Right. Right. with complete disdain and
25:16
basically they they treat him like a dog. They chain him up and they taunt him.
25:21
Yeah. So, and they they basically they rape him as well in many ways, right?
25:27
They treated the same way. And here's the thing, the only reason why they kept him alive is because he's a bargaining
25:34
chip just in case. That's what also I I think it was also in some ways
25:41
to sort of torture her. Yeah. And if he's dead,
25:46
she's a part of their group, right? She's done everything and everything possible to ingratiate herself at them.
25:53
Mhm. At that point, and they make her kill him.
25:59
They literally give her a gun and they aim it at him and like kill him. Right. So that's and that's the
26:06
difference in in when a woman falls into the hands of a group like this and when a man falls into the hands of a group
26:12
and he's just a man, he has less value, but a woman you can have sex with. She's
26:18
a great toy. You keep her around for that. And that's the difference between the two. Agnes knew full well what was
26:24
going to happen to her. And ironically or maybe not a a woman in that time
26:32
needs to know needs to be prepared for what could happen, right? So she basically at um tells her maid to seduce
26:41
some soldier so she will know what to do romantically. Okay. How do I please my
26:48
new husband? I mean, she's lived in a convent, right? So what does she know about men? The nuns won't tell her, but
26:55
her maid will just, oh well, you know, I'll just seduce him for you. So, she uh
27:00
this guy bangs her and she watches and she you know, it's it's playful thing. Do you know who do you know who that was
27:06
played by? Agnes' handmaiden was played by the I'm not even joking. Did you catch who it is?
27:12
No. Very famous. Very the voice actress for Bart Simpson. Nancy Cartwright.
27:17
Really? March. Is that March? No, Bart. That's right. I said Bart uh
27:22
uh Bart Bart. Yeah. Bart's voiced by a woman named K Nancy Cartwright.
27:28
Yeah. So I'm surprised you didn't know that. Yeah. So she Nancy Cartwright is a multi
27:33
multi multi-millionaire now. But this is pre Simpsons of course but Yeah. And and barely pre Simpsons
27:39
because the Simpsons started like in what the late ' 80s like 889 889
27:44
89. So this was right after. Yeah. This is a few years after. But yeah, that handmaiden was played by
27:50
Nancy Cartwright, who voices Bart Simpson. That's cool. Cool detail. But anyway,
27:56
that scene prepares Agnes for the ordeal to come because she uses everything and
28:04
that this woman is a sponge. She uses everything she learns and turns it on
28:09
the people who taught her, right? Because at some point she seduces Steven, right? They're under the tree,
28:15
that scene with the tree where the with those with you have like um people have been executed, hung from trees
28:22
and they're below that tree. She basically tells Steven, you know, there's a root right under
28:28
um you know, these these condemned people and if you eat from that root,
28:34
you will love each other forever. And of course, Steven is like nonsense. And of
28:39
course, she digs up a root and it's like, hey, you know, you're a scholar, right? you you're saying you're this
28:45
scientist guy. How how are you going to prove or disprove anything if you won't try it? If you won't won't discover it.
28:51
So he's like so he eats it and that's how she gets him, right? That's how he falls for her. And these are all little
28:59
things she picks up from that situation that save her life when she falls into
29:04
the hands of this rabbel. And this is all by design because for Hovind crafted this character, this central pivotal
29:11
character to go through this and come out on the other end. The only thing uh
29:17
he wasn't really prepared for was this making this triangle work. And arguably
29:23
it doesn't, right? And that's because the original script wasn't written that way. the original
29:30
script by Richard Saon and Paul Forhovven because he co-wrote it because they
29:37
always the Richard Saon is his basically his uh steady writer. He's been writing
29:43
uh since Flores. So he wrote all those Dutch movies including Soldier of Orange, including the fourth man,
29:48
including KJ Tipple, including um Turkish Delight etc. He wrote all of
29:53
them and they're used to working with each other. So basically Saimon does it does a a version and then Paul Forhovven
30:00
makes his screenplay and then Saon finishes it by the definitive and then the studio came with yeah that's great
30:07
that's great but we need a female lead we need u a damsel in distress we need a
30:13
girl we need we need both of them to be in love with her right and they were like minor characters in
30:20
the script and they were highlighted and brought into the center so instead of this rivalry
30:26
between Ruter Howard characters Martin and the uh captain of the mercenaries
30:32
Hawkwood, you get something else. You get this sort of awkward romance that
30:38
doesn't really work. Talk about uh Rucker. We're dancing around him.
30:43
So, how do you say his name again properly? Oh, boy. Okay. Well,
30:48
how rer. Maybe I'll just call him Howard. That might be Mr. Hower. So now he is from uh
30:54
your neck of the woods too. Yes, he's born in Amsterdam and grew up
31:00
in Fzeland. Okay. So he's basically he's a Fian guy. That's the blonde hair, the blue eyes.
31:05
Fian are all like that. How many movies did he do with Paul before this one? Was it just
31:12
This is the fifth one including the TV show. It's six. So he's the stable actor basically. It's
31:19
like there would never have been another leading man. It always been ruter. Okay. So Paul and Rutker were they're
31:28
they're like the Martin Scorsesei and Dairo so to speak of relationship. Okay. Uh Paul for Paul for Hov's first choice
31:35
for Robocop was Oh interesting. Okay. I don't know if that would necessarily work. Um, a rumor
31:42
has it that they um had a falling out partially because of uh this film and
31:49
Ruter wasn't available. It's not a rumor. I think it's pretty much established that they had that's
31:55
what I read anyways. I have Ruter House autobiography I've seen in interviews and they've since I
32:01
mean they didn't talk to each other for a year but after that they they kissed and made up. But Rutker's idea of this
32:07
movie was this is going to be my my franchise. I'm going to be the hero
32:13
of this film and I'm I'm going to be a noble knight and I'm going to get the girl and I'm going to be a medieval
32:20
James Bond. That was his whole thing. And of course, Paul Hovven is like, "No, you're you're a scum. You're a bad guy.
32:28
You're horrible. You're you're in a sense um you're very human and
32:34
you're a lot more like your Bladeunner character than you are Flawless.
32:40
Yeah. Didn't he want to clean up his image just a little bit? He kind of wanted to be more of a good guy for American film. He was like, "Man, I'm
32:46
I'm starting to get some American film work here and I keep playing bad guys. I played a bad guy in Nighthawks. I played
32:51
a bad guy in Bladeunner. and I I kind of want to play a good guy so to speak in movies and now I'm a rapist like
32:58
marauder killer and it's like he kind of wanted to clean up his act and that I think that's probably my biggest I would
33:04
say criticism of the film to some degree is um the film has it's a little
33:09
disjointed. It's it it doesn't know if it wants to be like a swashbuckling type fun film in
33:15
the in the vein of like Indiana Jones or Pirates of the Caribbean type fun and then and then it has some you know
33:21
brutal um elements to it. I know he he was able to perfect that with his next
33:26
movie, Robocop, with his sort of satire and comedy mixed with brutality, but I think this this movie would have been
33:32
better served had Martin I think if Ruter and and Paul agreed that look,
33:38
Martin's a bad guy. Like he's human and he's living in a rough time where he's surviving his
33:44
world. Yes, he is a robber, rapist, marauder, mercenary for hire. I get it. That's his life. And you can find a
33:51
humanity even in that in that person. But even the quote unquote good guys, the royalties, they were bad, too, cuz
33:56
they betrayed, you know, their own payments. They're like, "Hey, we're going to kill you and rob from you that which you got back for us." So, no one's
34:03
good. And I get that everyone's immoral. And so, yes, this these are not anti-heroes. No.
34:08
Like, you have heroes and you have anti-heroes. And anti-heroes uh are morally right, but do bad things
34:16
like the Punisher. The Punisher is the most perfect anti-hero in existence. He's morally right. Yes, he should kill
34:23
the bad guys because they hurt children, right? But he's a vigilante, so it's moral. So
34:30
it's legally wrong, but morally right. That's what an anti-hero is. Martin is not an anti-hero. Martin is a scumbag
34:36
who kills people, rapes women, steals, and has fun.
34:42
And those were a lot of people in the Middle Ages. And what you were watching
34:47
was not an American action movie in the Middle Ages. That's what I mean. I feel like it was
34:53
you were watching a European art movie about the horrors of medieval life by a
34:59
director obsessed with heightened reality. And now he had a budget. He had American
35:06
money to make something he finally wanted to make, which is, you know, this this gigantic movie about the Middle Ages. He
35:13
probably been wanting to do that ever since Flores because part of what ended up in this script and all the horrors of
35:19
it is all researched. None of this is made up. None of this is is
35:24
uh even creativity. It's basically it was just research stuff. It's like, oh
35:30
yeah, we found out this and we found out that uh they would just trebushe um animal parts into castles so the
35:37
defenders would get sick so they could take the castle more easily. Stuff like that. And that was that's what happens in this film. So here you have a
35:45
director, a mathematician, a physicist director for art's sake
35:51
who is making an American film with American money on his terms and his
35:57
fails because you cannot make an American film and that's the part of why this reason this film is so seinal and
36:02
why Robocop and uh all subsequent movies are are so good is because it teaches
36:09
Paul Verhovven a very important lesson and that he cannot make an American
36:14
movie when he's not living in the United States because he had been trying not to
36:19
live in the United States for over almost a decade because they've been asking him to come over and he was like
36:25
cuz Yand was already in the United States shooting movies because he was one of the most soughta cinematographers
36:31
in in in the world and Yand was constantly telling him you need to be over here otherwise you can never make
36:37
the movies you want to make. The trouble is here you have a guy who's set in his
36:42
ways. He's in his 40s. He's like, "No, I have kids. I have a mortgage. I I just
36:47
want to make the movies I want to make and not have to deal with these stupid government people who tell me what to do all the time. I just want to have my
36:54
way." And that's what he got with this film. And all your points are valid. Yes, he should have been heroic. Yes,
37:02
there should have been a clear-cut bad guy. No, wait. No, no, wait. Slow, slow, no, slow, no. What I'm saying is actually
37:08
sort of the opposite is that I think if you were to re in fact when I was watching this film, there's a part of me
37:14
is like I kind of wish they would do this movie again. I think you could make this film with today's I'm just being
37:22
honest with today's costume design, budget, set design, uh, and some of the
37:27
so great actors out there recast everybody. Of course, in a few years you're going to be able to do this completely AI.
37:34
Well, just wait. Just wait. Let me get let me get just stop stop let me get this out. Let me get this out. So what I'm trying to say is that
37:40
is that there's an awesome story here and I think if you made the Martin character absolutely like yeah just make
37:46
him clearly evil in the sense of what he is and you can make the um uh the
37:52
character a little bit more you can make him naive and make him a little bit like uh bumbling or not not bumbling sort of
37:58
like kind of naive and altruistic. Well, you could change it a little bit where you could have sort of a black and
38:05
white, but make the Martin character bad, but have the girl show the like the the girls, sorry, the the damsel
38:11
distress would be the audience and that we we'd have two charisma charismatic actors uh playing these roles where you
38:18
even have the the the damsel distress would be the kind of like we don't know who to quote unquote root for because we
38:24
see ourselves in both sides of the camp depending on the world that we're raised in because you have one who was raised
38:30
in wealth and and opportunity uh and protection and safety and that's why he is the way he is. Doesn't make him good
38:37
or bad, but he was raised in a world where he had he didn't have to go to crime and that kind of stuff to be the
38:44
way he is. And then you have another individual equally as charismatic uh but also good at his job of surviving and
38:51
but he does it through quote unquote bad measures. And then you have the damsel distress torn between the two ideals or
38:56
or worlds and and it is ambiguous. I like how we don't know really where she is, but she does choose safety in the
39:02
end, which does make sense, especially for that time. She wants to live. She just wants to live like everyone in
39:08
the middle ages who, let's face it, it was an age where you were lucky if you
39:13
would make it past 30. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people would get the plague very
39:19
simply. It's in this all over this movie. Everybody gets the plague because this is that era. So, you know, it's
39:26
um one big theme we haven't hit on uh and that's something Paul Verhovven pushed into this film and pushed into
39:33
this story. Religion, right? Religion is the driving force behind
39:40
everything that's happening here. And the entire film is almost an allegory against the church,
39:46
right? In everything that's happening, it's Paul Hovind taking the piss at the Catholic Church, basically.
39:52
Yeah. Well, not just religion, but the idea of modern science, you know, with religion and the idea that uh
40:00
Yeah. Uh and of course, Martin's group is following all these signs and all these signs. You could argue that
40:05
everything they pointed towards ended up in death and and destruction. And then you could argue that Paul Paul is pro
40:13
science and understanding because his his character that was those things, you know, quoteunquote gets the girl in the
40:18
end. Okay. Explain then why Paul forhovven is completely obsessed
40:24
with Jesus of Jesus Christ. Is he religious? No, but he loves Jesus.
40:32
Okay. Well, that's he doesn't love Jesus as the son of God or as
40:37
the religious symbol. He loves Jesus of Nazareth because of his teachings, because of his um philosophy, because of
40:44
his uh style of creating awareness of poverty and uh problems in the world
40:52
through the way he would sermon, right? And
40:58
Paul Hovind is obsessed with Jesus and he's been in this think tank about um
41:05
basically Jesus's legacy for over 30 years. He's written a book about Jesus and this leaks into every film he makes.
41:14
All his films all wrestle with this ex existentialism about religion.
41:21
And that's what you see here. is like everything that happens happens because people are interpreting it religiously,
41:28
right? You have this group who are all they're they start the first scene of the film you see the besieged city the
41:36
in the first scene the mercenaries they all drop down to their knees and they're all you know they take the Eucharist all
41:42
of them and the two gay guys in the group they al they also want the Eucharist but the preacher pre the the
41:49
preacher who's probably they call him the cardinal but he's probably some priest who got kicked out of the
41:54
priesthood for molesting children or maybe he didn't molest enough children who knows, but he got kicked. Or maybe
42:00
he's a drunk or problematic or couldn't read the Bible or whatever, but he's
42:05
he's basically ministering to this group of scumbags and he's giving them u the
42:10
the bread of Christ. And so these two gay guys want it too. And he's like dithering, right? Because they're
42:16
they're living in sin and it's kind of peculiar. Uh which is a kind of a Paul
42:21
forhovan thing to put that in there, right? Uh because he's again taking the piss at the church, right?
42:27
Okay. And then you have Martin who he he he doesn't ask for the bread of
42:34
Christ. He takes it he grabs it out of the hand of the priest. He's like, "No, I I'm Martin and I'm going to kick some
42:42
ass." So he takes up the sword and he go conquers the city, right? And um from
42:47
then on, Martin is the catalyst of um the priest
42:54
to get control over this group religiously. because Mar they dig up some
43:00
they've been kicked out of the city they don't have the swords anymore they need something and uh one of the women one of
43:07
the camp followers is pregnant by who we don't really know she says it's from Martin but could have been anyone really
43:13
uh could have probably not karst cuz uh that's probably the only guy in the group she hasn't done because he really
43:19
likes her and she's like no no no you're friend-zoned right and so there's this
43:25
other that's the other love triangle in the film. It's um Seline wants Martin.
43:32
Martin is okay with Seline, but she's just an expedient. But Karst loves
43:37
Seline. And so there's this tension there. The same tension that happens between and that's typical of Paul
43:44
Varhovven's style. He mirrors everything. By watching one thing, you understand the other. That's that's his
43:50
style. That's how he explains the art he's trying to bring to you. An artist
43:56
needs you to have a focus on something. That's why they, for example, if they're
44:01
uh painting a dish with fruit, they give you that fruit from a certain light from
44:07
outside or something. So, you have a focused light to look at the fruit in a certain way. This is the same way he
44:13
does it, but he does it with these this these two juosition triangles. Anyway, not to make things confusing, Martin is
44:22
the guy who becomes the Jesus figure in a way,
44:28
right? Because at some point he just takes over the religion. He um he just basically starts
44:34
manipulating the so-called prophecies that this cardinal sees because he keeps
44:39
seeing symbolism and everything. Oh, he sees a burning noose, so oh, trouble must be coming. Oh, he sees a statue
44:45
pointing in a certain way or the statue has a sword. Yeah, that statue obviously is our
44:51
patron saint because we are men with swords, but we are righteous. So, we are going to follow this patron saint and
44:57
this patron saint will protect us, stop us from being beggars, will bring us wealth again because that's all they want, right? They don't want to sleep in
45:03
the dirt. You have St. Martin, which is an interesting concept. St. Martin uh is
45:08
the basis for Santa Claus. St. Martin was a patron saint and he cut
45:15
off his cloak to share it with a beggar. Uh couple that to a Greek Orthodox
45:24
Turkish uh saint who administered to the poor and would give them presents. The
45:30
combination of that became centerass which is a Dutch yearly tradition. From center class the Americans needed time
45:36
or the British probably needed a time at Christmas to you know have it be more commercial. we need to sell presents
45:42
here. We need to sell goods. And people are at Christmas are staying home and
45:47
having dinner and and it's it's not commercially viable. So they thought of Santa Claus because they figured out,
45:53
oh, the Santa CL thing might work here, but we have to pretty it up. So we'll use elves and a sled and a chimney and
45:59
all that stuff. This film depicts the origins of Santa of Santa Claus.
46:05
Oh, I missed that. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. The dark origins of Santa. I think
46:11
this film in some ways for me too when I was watching it as I wasn't as quote unquote shocked as I thought I might
46:16
have been. me that's just because I'm obviously desensitized is the right word but when you start watching stuff like Game of Thrones and things I wonder even
46:23
if um George Martin or even the creators of Game of Thrones saw some of the stuff this is this is what I mean this
46:30
cuz yeah everybody loves this film that well I mean for it historical
46:35
accuracy it's being it's louded as the best film on medieval times ever. So
46:41
when you're making a medieval TV fantasy medieval TV show, of course you're going to look at this film and say, you know,
46:47
we should have some of that. I know you don't like remakes. I know that you're always against that, but this is a story I think that's worth I
46:54
don't know. I think it's worth you can make a miniseries out of this. And and that's just because you only have two hours to tell a story, but there's so
47:00
much going on here and so many characters. Like for example, one of the story lines that I like Well, I mean,
47:05
you can't disagree. Are you telling me? Are you telling me the hawk the hawk what's the guy's name? Hawkwood.
47:11
He He was awesome. He was my favorite side character and I wanted to know more about him. I want to know his history
47:17
and he's just kind of those guys like he it would have been better served to have him over an eight, you know, episode arc
47:24
in the sense because arguably the Hawkwood is the most moral character in the film. Yes, that's he was my favorite. Maybe
47:30
that's why he was my favorite guilty about hurting the poor nun. Yes. And that's what I'm getting at. I
47:36
love that whole side. I love that whole side story line that the way the movie starts, it doesn't it doesn't even go where it ends. That's
47:42
not good or bad. It's surprising. There's so many different story lines. He hurts this nun or whatever who's
47:49
fighting for her protection and he goes to hit her behind the curtain, splits her skull, he mends her, she's
47:55
Yeah. This is characterdriven European film making. Americans are story. They
48:00
tell you a story. Yeah. And when you're telling a story, then everyone who is a part in the story
48:06
is subservient to the story. But when you're making a character-driven film, then what the characters are doing is
48:13
the interesting thing. And that's why everything everyone has something to do that. And uh this fed into the problems
48:21
uh why this was quote unquote developmental hell. Characters were character-driven, right? They all had
48:26
something to do. all a part to play, but none of it made any sense to the actors because they were expecting a story and
48:32
there is none, right? There really isn't. I I think the the red mask comes closest to explaining uh some of the
48:39
origins of this story about a dinner party and the the person under the red mask is death itself. Kind of the ending
48:45
of this film kind of plays out like that story. Well, there are two historical events that were the basis of this of
48:52
what what little story this film has. One is Yonan Leen who became a relig he
49:00
was a fanatical Christian and he became a religious leader in the city German city of Müster create a bonfire of the
49:06
vanities right if you know that story it's about it happened in Italy as well seonorola which was a religious leader
49:13
who said you know we have to get rid of all our worldly possessions because it's making us corrupt uh god hates us that's
49:20
why he's given us the plague so we must all follow the Lord's teachings I know the Lord's teachings and hey I talk to
49:27
God you know he talks to me we're buddies we're this right he's one of those guys and so this young lady was
49:34
the same kind of guy and everyone who was disagreeing with him he would just chop their head off in the middle of the square now there's another story which
49:42
is the wrecking of the Batavia which was a ship during our colonial era a large
49:48
ship and it shipwrecked on an island and the inhabitants that about 200 300 people survived the inhabitants started
49:54
populating the island started rebuild because you know they were waiting to be discovered again but you know that could
50:00
take years and there was this character I think his name was uh Peter Stone or
50:06
something anyway he was one of those religious nut cases and he held that
50:11
island he ruled it with an iron fist and that's basically what's happening here
50:16
it's a religious fanatic the cardinal uh through who through Martin rules this
50:22
little mob and creates a little kingdom them in that castle. And so everyone's on set and it's like, "What is this?
50:28
What am I doing here? What's my part?" Uh, and so all these actors who are from
50:34
different nationalities and different schools of acting start arguing with each other. They were filming in really
50:40
cold, damp castles with no central heating. They didn't have trailers. There was no money. So every everybody
50:46
was miserable. They were drunk. They hated each other. Um they they call it
50:51
flesh, blood and elbows because at some point uh the actors who were trying to figure out a way into this film were
50:59
elbowing each other out of the shot so they'd be more into the shot. So that's one of the reasons why all these
51:04
characters have more flesh on them. If you come up with a good idea and you come up to it come up to Verhovven
51:09
saying well you know we could do this and that the other for my character he's going to let you run with it if it works. If it doesn't he's going to shout
51:15
you down. And then you have Rutkarh Hower who wants to be a true blue hero who's playing a bad guy that he doesn't
51:21
want to be and he's at odds with his own director and they were shouting each other in Dutch and the rest of the crew
51:27
was just standing around listening to these guys yelling at each other in this weird guttural language and there was
51:33
just no end to this shoot. There's just no end to it because if you have a bad
51:38
situation like this then everything is going to go slower. Things are going to go wrong. People are misunderstanding
51:44
each other. the the actor that played Cars. You recognize him? Oh, sure. From Bladeunner. And he's also
51:50
in, you know, your Stallone movie. Yeah. Isn't he like an Orion type one of
51:55
those uh he's your classic ' 80s bad guy. He has a not the most handsome face in the world. So, but he used that to to
52:02
have a very fun career. From what I understand, I saw an interview with him and he had a miserable time and he hates Paul for
52:09
Hovind as a result. Oh, no. like the worst movie I was ever in and Paul for Hovven is crazy and I
52:15
didn't have a trailer and there was unsafe and because at some point they're standing on top of the parapits of the
52:21
castle. It's a real castle, right? It's a castle in Spain in near Malaga. It's beautiful
52:27
and uh there are no safety lines and they they had nets and but they were pretty low uh because otherwise it would
52:34
ruin the shot. Welcome to Paul for Hovindland. The shot is more important than your life, right? Sure.
52:39
And if you and if you have a problem with that, then you I'll just be happy to shout at you. So this guy was like, I
52:46
want a safety line. And he and apparently Paul Forhovven had a tantrum and told him, "You [ __ ] American
52:52
actors, first of all, you can't act. Second of all, you have a bad attitude. Third of all, you're a bunch of [ __ ]
52:59
You are wusses. I mean, all the other actors are standing on the parapit. They have no problem. But you're standing
53:05
here. You want to like and you want an extra safety line. Fine, you little [ __ ] I'll get you a safety line. Apparently, then you got the other
53:11
safety lines, too. But well, nothing wrong with being safe. Nothing wrong with being safe, but I get
53:17
I was scared of heights. I'm scared of heights. I have my one. So is he. This was a dangerous movie to
53:22
be on, and it's time certain amount of realism from that. And that's what uh
53:27
Paul Vovven is all about, augmenting realism, right? Making realism so over the top because
53:34
that's what this really is. It's very hyperbolic. And this style never leaves him, right? It's like he needs to
53:41
impress on you the reality of the situation by overdoing it. So, how did how did Paul, before we
53:47
close up here, I'm curious. How did Paul get Robocop if this movie didn't quote unquote do well at the box?
53:53
Orion wanted Paul for Hovind badly and they already said at the start of this project, whatever happens, we want you
54:01
to do more movies for us. So when this they didn't bother to even promote this film. They they barely put any publicity
54:08
into it. It had this weird contract where Orion could distribute it in uh America which they really didn't. It I
54:14
think it was in a couple of theaters and then it would just went straight to video. So they considered it a resale loss to get Paul for Hovind. Paul for
54:21
Hovind could market it in Holland and in Spain it was marketed by some other company and then they argued over the
54:26
money and the proceeds. Robocop was already in the works at some at that point. It's just Paul Fhovven didn't
54:32
want to do it because Paul Fhovven thought Robocop sucked. He hated the script. He thought it was nonsense. He
54:38
thought it was ridiculous. And when this movie failed, basically that gave his
54:43
wife enough leverage over him to say, "Look, Paul, you can't have everything
54:48
in life. You're going to we are going to have to go to America and you're going to have to shoot Robocop because it's a
54:54
good script." And he's like, "No, it's not a good script." Apparently, there's this famous moment where he just throws the script over his shoulder and she
55:01
picked it up and read it and it's like, "No, this isn't so bad. This is as bad as you think." And he's like, "Yes, it
55:06
is. It's terrible. It's horrible. It's just a cartoon. It's stupid." He's like, "No, it's about," she basically said, "But you like Jesus and this is about
55:12
Jesus." And he's like, "Where?" It's like, "No, literally Robocop is Jesus." And then he looks at it and he's
55:18
like, "Yeah, it's Paradise Lost." Basically, it's Robocop loses paradise. you know, he stops being a man and
55:25
because he's crucified by these criminals and then he comes back to life.
55:30
Yep. He's American. I don't want to spoil I don't want to spoil. Come back to life and shoot people,
55:35
right? That's that's the famous story. And apparently his wife was re really like probably sick of hearing the [ __ ]
55:44
about, you know, this this art commission who wouldn't give him any money and all the trouble he was going
55:49
through and the fact how frustrated he was that he couldn't make the movies he wanted. And he's like, "Well, just go
55:54
there and you know, we'll see. We'll figure that out." And he's in his 40s and his kids are going to high school
56:00
and he's like, "Yeah, but what about the girls?" And they're like, she's like, and she was the one pushing him. It's like, no, we're going to go. She's the
56:06
reason why he worked with Arnold. She's the reason because she liked Arnold.
56:12
Arnold has way with women. And so Arnold at some point came to their table when
56:19
when they were having a meeting and he introduced himself and he introduced obviously introduces himself to Paul's
56:24
wife. Oh, Martin, how are you? And she's like, oh, I'm just a big fan of your work. You're wonderful. So, and he says,
56:30
you know, I have this wonderful project that I want your husband to do. Can I send you the script? And then it was just a handshake. He just went came to
56:36
dinner with the guys from Tristar and Arnold and they shook hands and that was it.
56:42
But that's how it works. It's like Perhovan is difficult. Sounds like it.
56:47
He's headrong. Difficult. What is it with you people from there? Yeah, we're Dutch.
56:52
Well, we got a lot of great movies still to cover and this was an absolute treat sequel to to cover Flesh of Blood. I
56:58
thought it was a overall fun movie. Was not bored. I thought, you know, selfishly, I kind of wanted to because
57:05
some of the fight, like, let's be honest, the sword fighting, some of the fight scenes were it almost a very Montipython type quality of fighting.
57:11
Like, it's just like you could add like Benny Hill music to some of the fight scenes and that's what it seemed like. And that's a
57:17
sure and they didn't have the money. I know. And that's what I mean. So, like this is a movie or I should say this is
57:24
a story. I don't want to say the movie is a remake. This is a story worth reinvestigating. I think this is a story. I love the the motif. the ideas
57:30
of it. Henry Cav. Yeah, sure. Uh, so I think this is something worth reinvestigating. So, I'm
57:37
not saying redo this movie, but you could redo the movie uh, in that there's a lot going on here, and I think it make
57:43
a great I think it would make a great ep one season miniseries. I think you got I think there's some I would love to see
57:49
these sword fights done, right? Right. You know what I mean? And I that's kind of what my biggest pullway was is just
57:54
nobody knew how to fight with it. Felt like kids in the backyard playing with the broomsticks. That's what it felt like. So I was like, uh, other than
57:59
that, right? So yeah, I agree with you. This this this could have been done better. Probably not at the time because if you
58:05
look at at like like Highlander, which is a contemporary, it's much the same thing, right? It's also there's also a
58:11
lot a lot to say about that one. I I think I covered it for the uh URSTW network we uh we had at some point,
58:18
right? But yeah, no, it's I agree it could be a great miniseries. It could be a lot of things,
58:24
right? All right. So what's next for you? Next one. What's next? Like what's the next recording you got going?
58:30
We are about to record Robocop with Sean from uh the Urs Dolph Lincoln podcast
58:39
and I have uh Mr. Bond himself uh Jack Frug. I have him uh set for uh Hollow
58:47
Man. Nice. I'm looking for So that should be a fun one. We we are still discussing if we're going to do it
58:52
drunk or not and what cocktail should be drunk during oh said well
58:57
recording well we were we were very sober for this one so I I I appreciate it and I appreciate again I appreciate you see
59:03
for for tackling Paul this is not an easy one to tackle but it's a fun one
59:08
it's a mesmerizing set of films and at some point I'm going to have to do the Dutch ones uh I think do the Dutch ones
59:16
yeah the reason why it's like not that people have to watch them I would ever make anyone watch a Dutch movie? Why
59:22
would you? But they are interesting in the in in this particular way and that's a good way of closing this recording,
59:28
closing this episode is that Paul Hovind himself said that an there's an artist
59:34
trap and that's basically an artist is always remaking himself. He's always repeating himself. There are a lot of
59:40
things you see in this film uh for example the way he directed Jennifer
59:46
Jason Lee that she has like two emotions in one in one scene right that she goes from sweet and innocent into diabolical
59:55
and crafty. Well, he directed Sharon Stone in much the same way in Total Recall and later that's why he picked
1:00:00
her for Basic Instinct because that's what he was looking for. Someone who could play the sweet innocent woman but also
1:00:06
be dangerous cuz I think that's the woman he likes. His wife might be like that.
1:00:12
Who knows? Sounds like it. I love it. I love it. He married a strong woman just like you, Sego. You married a strong
1:00:17
woman, too. I believe I married a lioness. Yeah, that's the way. Me, too. Me, too.
1:00:23
I'm in I'm in constant fear of being eaten, so I'm on my toes all the time. Oh, good. I'm glad somebody keeps you on
1:00:29
your toes. There you go. Anyway, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Ryan, for participating in this recording. I always love
1:00:35
podcasting with you, even if it's only once every few years, but this guy and you have to spread
1:00:40
yourself around. So, thank you. Thanks for having me. Good luck with good luck with the rest of the
1:00:46
uh the rest of the episodes. I can't wait. Stay tuned. More to come. Bye for now.
1:00:55
[Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]