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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
Episode 134.
Anthony: Be economical.
If you came in, even if you had 50, 000
to dump on a startup, don't blow it.
You're listening to the grazing grass,
podcast, sharing information and stories
of grass-based livestock production
utilizing regenerative practices.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
Cal: You're growing more than grass.
You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle
thrive in their environment.
You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity
and reducing your operating costs.
You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.
The grazing management
decisions you make today.
impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.
That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials
of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow
techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.
In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.
Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,
but a legacy that lasts.
Learn more on their website at noble.
org slash grazing.
It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.
On today's show.
We have Anthony Horvath for Michigan on to
share about his farm and why he's doing.
We talked about starting at
ground zero and building slowly.
Anthony and his wife both
work full-time off the farm.
And the farm.
It is fairly small, but
getting started good.
We talk about his approach to it.
We talked about him getting started
and utilizing bailing hay, as a way
to expand while he's able to do.
We talked about difficulties of
being able to graze more land there.
So a good episode a little
bit different perspective.
Someone's working full-time off the farm.
Whereas the last few episodes,
we've had some larger operations
on, so really excited to offer
a different perspective today.
And I really appreciate
Anthony coming on and sharing.
For 10 seconds about my farm.
Last week I mentioned calving
had started for my dad's herd.
And we jumped off to a great
start with four calves.
And then they're just trickling in now.
So I think we're up to eight
calves, when we have for the
first day, We think, oh boy.
We're going to have a slew,
but now it just one at a time.
So it's going slow right
now, but it should pick up.
10 seconds about the podcast.
If you haven't left us a review,
we always appreciate reviews.
And as one of my favorite
podcasts says, we love five star
reviews and positive contents.
And to be honest, I do.
Yeah.
Let's share a review.
This one says great podcast.
Great show for graziers I am in
the Southeast us, but can use the
ideas for my grazing purposes here.
Thank you, jskin2610.
We appreciate you leaving a review for us.
And they do highlight an issue.
We've had this summer, I feel
like we've had more Northern.
Grazers.
More Canadian grazers on, and
we haven't had too many from the
Southeast or too many other places.
So we need to work on that.
If you're from the Southeast wants
share, in fact, if you're from
anywhere in the world and you want
to share about your operation.
I go to grazing grass.com and click
on be our guest and fill it up for.
I will get it and I'll be in touch.
Again, jskin
thank you for leaving us that review.
And let's talk to Anthony.
Speaker: Anthony, we want to welcome
you to the grazing grass podcast.
We're excited.
You're here today.
Thanks for having me.
Cal Anthony to get started.
Can you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your operation?
Speaker 2: So our operation is
pretty limited on our home front.
We're operating on less than 10 acres.
That includes the neighbor's
acre and a half next door.
Oh, yes.
We have seven cattle, two of them are
calves, three are feeders that'll be
finished out here in the next two months.
And we plan to have them finished out
by the time grass goes dormant, which
being in southwest Michigan could be
September or it could be February.
Oh, yeah.
The last couple of years, last year
I had grass until probably January.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll
get a snow in October.
Sometimes we don't have any snow
until January or February at times.
Oh, yeah.
So it's we're pretty
close to Lake Michigan.
Oh, okay.
So it's very hit or miss on our weather.
Speaker: Now being close to the Great
Lakes up there and myself being in
Oklahoma, I know very little about it,
but I know occasionally on the national
maps they'll say Lake Effect snow.
Do you get hit with Lake Effect snow?
Speaker 2: Well, that's the
thing about Lake Effect.
It's either hit or miss.
Speaker 3: Oh
Speaker 2: yeah.
We are in the area that we get hit.
or we don't.
So being, we're on the Indiana Michigan
state line, close to Lake Michigan.
So, if the wind comes directly
out of the west, we might
get hit with the lake effect.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Speaker 2: If it comes slightly out
of the south, we might miss it because
it doesn't come across the lake.
Oh,
Speaker: okay.
Now, if
Speaker 2: it comes out of
the northwest, then we can
expect, feet of snow overnight.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Interesting.
So, yeah.
Interesting.
I'm just a few miles from Oligo Lake.
I'm sure you haven't heard of it,
but I never have to worry about
Lake, expect Lake effect snow
.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So like, if we were an hour north,
like Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Yes.
They're probably more consistent
whether they get it or not, because,
they're, they can't avoid the lake.
Oh, yeah.
The wind streams and
whatnot coming across.
So.
Speaker: Oh, interesting.
So Anthony, we're on here, ag podcasts.
Why did you decide to get into ag?
Speaker 2: Well, if you would have
asked me that five years ago, I
would have told you I would never
thought I was doing today what I am.
Oh, yes.
Four years ago we started a hay operation.
Bailing some of our own stuff custom
jobs, rented ground, and we had one cow
one cow, donkey, and we were buying our
hay, and we had some issues with that.
Shady people, hard to get a hold of,
some lesser quality stuff, just people
slide stuff in and we happened to get
a bad bale of hay, which we were buying
round bales and our donkey became sick.
Speaker: Oh no.
Speaker 2: And we didn't lose
them, at least not at that point.
And I thought, I'm tired of
chasing hay around and maybe
I just start making my own.
So, we just had one feeder cow for
the house and, maybe sell a little bit
of extra to some friends or whatnot.
And then at that point, we decided
we would start buying hay equipment
in probably March of 2020.
And we did a few custom
jobs, mostly on splits.
And It started rolling from there.
Speaker: I
Speaker 2: want
Speaker: to stop you for just a second.
Okay.
If you've listened to the podcast very
long, one of my happiest days in my life
was when we sold the haying equipment.
Now, when I say that you can
make my good day go bad by me
having to work on some equipment.
That's not where I fall, but you have
a hidden advantage with the equipment.
Speaker 2: Yes.
So by trade I am a diesel technician
with ag as a secondary in my education.
And I like wrenching on stuff.
I like being able to diagnose and
find the problem and fix things.
So when it came to the hay equipment, we
just bought the cheapest that we could
afford and started rebuilding from there.
But I've gotten to a point to where
I know my equipment well enough.
And I know that.
When hay's not growing, I
should probably work on it.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I believe too many people run
into issues where once hay season's done,
they're done until the next hay season.
And then they start going and then
they don't have time to make, some
maintenance or minor repairs that
could be more catastrophic and yeah.
Speaker: I'm raising my hand, Anthony,
because when we hay, we bailed hay.
We did it out necessity
because of the dairy.
We needed so much hay for it.
And when that haying season ended, we
parked the equipment and we Oh yeah.
Looked at it in the following spring
and in a panic, started fixing stuff.
Now the, we ha we hire someone
to come bell hay for us now.
Yeah, he's actually a second cousin.
But he, when he finishes haying season,
his winner is going through fixing,
working on all his tractors and stuff.
That's what he enjoys doing.
And so that's his plan.
And he, I'm assuming he's done like you.
He's bought some equipment and worked
on it and got it working for him.
Because he'll pull in with tons of
equipment and he may come over here
with three mowers or he may be down one.
He's like, well, yeah, one messed up.
I'll get it in winter and fix it.
So he's in great shape on
equipment, but he spends winter
working on all of that equipment.
So you bring up a great point that I
have to say we were not good about.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And I, during college I
did work at a Derrick barn.
Oh, yes.
Even at that point, I
would have never thought.
I was going to start buying animals
and hay equipment and, it was just
a college job and that was that.
Did you, were you raised
Speaker: around animals?
Speaker 2: So, my background has zero
animals in the history to the point we
were lucky to have a dog growing up.
I did.
Wanted nothing to do with animals.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
But yet when you went to college, you
decided to go get a job on a dairy.
Yes.
Speaker 2: So the school I went to, which
was University of Northwestern Ohio,
down in Lima they had like job postings
that, people in the community would
say, Hey, you got some college kids.
I have a job that would work
around their schedule or whatnot.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Speaker 2: I was just like,
Oh, I'll check this out.
And they were pretty flexible.
We only went to school Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
Oh, yeah.
And then we had Friday
and the weekend off.
And the dairy was like, well, we're,
we were milking 80 to a hundred head
and he really just needed some relief.
Oh, yeah.
So to have somebody there to help milk
and he could pick up on other things,
go out, and get other things rolling
while somebody was managing the parlor,
bringing cows in and out, whatnot.
So having help four or
five days a week was great.
Good for him.
And then, he had his weekends
and one thing I never got roped
into was helping with hay.
So, yes, that's one thing I've thought
about is like, I, he never asked
me to come stack wagons, nothing,
Speaker: And then here you are
buying hay and equipment and
deciding you're going to do your own.
Yeah.
So why did you mentioned a
little bit You'd got some hay
and your donkey had gotten sick.
Was there any other reason you
thought, hey, let's, thought, hey,
yeah, ironically, thought, hey, let's
go get the equipment to make hay.
Speaker 2: It was just, so we
had our own and there's not
enough haymakers in our area.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: So when I started talking
about buying some hay equipment, I
had a buddy that was like, Hey, I
know some people that are looking
for somebody to cut and bale, I can
hook you up with them, whatever.
And I found out some of the, some
of those were just on offs, whatnot.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, because he had his own
hay equipment, but didn't
want to do the hay for him.
So, but from there we just started
picking up ground and I think I got
up to 30 or 40 acres my first year.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: And then the second year
we started looking for a lot more, but
at that point we started buying more
animals cause we're like, Oh yeah.
We have the hay, we might as
well, do some more animals.
And at that point we had processed
our cow and people were like,
Hey, we'll buy some from you.
Like, we want to buy local.
So we got rolling with, maybe
we'll buy two to butcher out.
And then we got the hay and then we
got more cows and we got more hay.
And this year.
And last season, first cutting,
I've done around a hundred acres.
Oh, yeah.
And that kind of says a lot for our area.
We don't have big hay fields.
Oh, yes.
I would say a big hay job in our
area, my biggest job is 15 acres.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
So, so small acreage there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
There, there are some bigger hay
fields that, mostly like a family
farm or something might have like
a 30 acre field or something.
Oh, yeah.
Right.
Not a lot of it.
Everybody, it's just
easier to go to row crop.
A lot of people that are renting
out, they don't want people
there three, four times a year.
They get their rent.
At the beginning of the year,
somebody comes and plants something,
then they harvest it, and Oh, yeah.
I find some people find that
easier and a simpler process, and
Speaker: Now, in addition to the
farm and your haying, are you
working off the farm as well?
Speaker 2: I am still working full time.
We strive for 40 hours.
Oh, yeah.
My company owner would greatly
complain that I don't quite
get 40 hours every week.
So,
Speaker: well, just so when you say 100
acres, even though you're doing a smaller
acreage for someone who's building hay
in my area, they'd say that's not a lot.
That's hardly a drop in the bucket, but
the thing, but you're doing a full time
job in addition to belling this hay.
And then, so I think
context is important there.
Yes.
Yes.
So because, but belling hay is
not a quick and easy dollar.
Speaker 2: Right.
So I saved my vacation time.
Cal: Oh yes.
Speaker 2: And the way it goes, I've
rewrote company policy three times in
four and a half years I've been there.
So, I would save my vacation time, and
when it came to making hay, I would take
off at lunch, put a half day vacation in.
You can't do anything first thing in the
morning unless you're moving equipment.
And we did that for about two
years, and we had to sit down
meeting at work, and they said,
We're no longer doing half days.
We can no longer take half, half
vacation days, it's gotta be a full day.
Yeah, I'm like, well, that's
a disadvantage to you.
Cause when I got to make
hay, I got to make hay.
Yeah.
So I more so miss out the hours
on the week then push the hay off.
Cause Southwest Michigan,
you got a window to do hay.
You got to make it.
Oh yeah.
You missed your window.
You could be pushed back a month.
Easy.
And we had that this year.
Our first cutting was, I would say,
maybe a couple weeks behind, but
between first and second cutting,
we got pushed back an extra month.
Just because we only had like two or
three dry days in a row and, humidity
rolls in, you got to hold off.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
I assume it's very similar to trying
to bail in May or mid May year.
It's really tough to
get anything wrapped up.
The humidity, getting enough warm
days and enough sunlight together.
Yeah.
You hit early to mid June.
That all changes for us, but you're
in a little bit different environment.
Speaker 2: So if we get into June,
I would say first cutting due to the
volume can be the hardest one to dry.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: But if we get into
June doing first cutting, we
could almost turn it in a day.
Oh, yeah.
Just because the sun, the breeze I've
made hay, dry hay, and I've bailed
at 36 hours and it was too dry.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: Round baler, it was
just blowing apart and, but also
when you get into June, you're also
already have a half dead crop and,
Speaker: yeah, matured out.
Already half
Speaker 2: dry standing up.
Speaker: Now, Anthony, you mentioned that
you started baling this hay and you had
more hay, so you all bought more animals.
Have you thought about grazing
those hay pastures you have?
Speaker 2: So, that is one
of my biggest challenges.
In the first two years I was making
hay, I would go out to a field.
I'm like, man, this wasn't worth my time.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: I usually make
four by five round bales.
First cutting they're eight to
nine hundred pounds, second cutting
they're easily a thousand pounds.
When you go out and do a ten or fifteen
acre field on second cutting and you only
bring home ten bales, You look at your
cost and go, wow, I know my field's gone.
And so that's where I came across the
whole regenerative ag approach on things.
And I really try to get some of my
landowners I'm for grazing and I have
had zero success other than my next
door neighbor with an acre and a half.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Speaker 2: They don't
like the idea of fences.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I'm talking
fence down to the simplest form
of my group is good enough.
Obviously I have a small group seven
cattle, half a dozen sheep in Katahdin
hair sheep three of them are lambs.
They're all, they're bonded.
I have no problems with sheep getting out.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I can run the whole
group on two strands of poly braid.
With just a T post in the corner.
If I'm doing long runs, say,
two, three hundred feet, I like
to have T posts in the corners.
Otherwise, I can just get
away with a step in post.
But even that little bit of fence,
they still just don't like the idea.
And I've got a couple I keep trying
to work on, because, of course,
they're my weakest output fields.
Oh, yeah.
And just can't get them onto the idea.
We are on Zillow every day.
We need to grow.
We're at that point to where we would
like to find 30 to 40 acres at least.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Got some things
in the works, nothing
substantial.
But we're trying.
With our group, our 10 acre
home property is probably about
seven seven of its forested.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Speaker 2: So we have been working
for the last couple of years to do
more of a silvopasture approach.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: We have about two, two
and a half acres at the front of our
property that's just wide open pastures
from the past, and then we have a
valley that goes through the property.
It's not that big, but it's a
significant cut in the ground.
And through that, we've started
eliminating we have a lot of wild cherry
in our area, which I don't know how much
you've dealt with those or know about the
health side effects of those, but some
people say they'll let their cows eat
them green, but the issue is when a tree
branch breaks off and you get it wilting.
It'll kill a cow within a few hours.
Oh yes.
My neighbor across the road has a
bunch of black Angus in springtime.
They might run a little short on hay
or whatnot, but you start getting that
green up and the cows start reaching
over the fence and, it's not the first
time they grabbed the branch, but
it's the second or third time they
grabbed the branch that it started
creating the, I believe it's cyanide
when when a cherry tree starts to wilt.
And that's what kills them.
Speaker: Oh yeah, that's an
interesting issue to have.
I don't know of having any
wild cherries around here.
Yeah, I haven't had to deal with it.
Speaker 2: They're big in our area.
Black cherry or wild cherry.
They get a little real
little cherry fruit on it.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: Birds spread
them around pretty good.
I've, my wife has talked about eliminating
them off our property, but that would
probably be 70 percent of our trees.
Oh, yes.
So, we come back, keep
them out of the areas.
So our donkey that got sick a couple
years ago he recovered, we had him,
he actually passed away this summer.
We don't know if there's still side
effects because what he got sick from
a few years ago was a liver infection.
And our vet said,
something bad in the hay,
Cal: you
Speaker 2: know, could be many issues that
could cause it, but most likely something
bad in a moldy spot, bad plant something.
He passed away this summer,
but he was our biggest concern.
Out in the woods because he always
liked cribbing on the cherry trees.
Oh,
Cal: yeah, I could never
Speaker 2: seem to cause him a problem But
he was always the one that would do it.
So we'd rope them off and just a
wrap of poly braid around them You
know just two or three teeth or step
in post and it kept them off Yeah
So the rest of our group
doesn't really bother them.
So we're a little easier
rotating them around.
But, yeah,
Cal: So, Anthony, you were
talking about your animals.
How are you doing grazing
management with your animals?
Because you're working with
very small acreage for them.
Anthony: We, so our grazing
management is very flexible, which is
Cal: good.
Grazing management should be flexible.
Anthony: Yeah.
So right now my one pasture is came
up very strong and what some people
call goose grass or wiregrass.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Anthony: And I have split my group up
to offer the better forage to my feeders
that are, I have three that are, three
cattle that are finishing out in the
next two months, and then I have three
lambs I'm carrying over until early
spring, there'll be about 10 months for
butcher just in time for the holidays.
Oh, yes.
So I'm neglecting my brood.
They're in that pasture with the
goose grass and supplemented with hay.
Unfortunately, they're not eating as
much of the hay as I'd like because
I use a cradle style bale feeder.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Anthony: And it works really
good for bale grazing.
So, that pasture will probably end
up getting tilled and reseeded just
because, It's gone through some leveling
with the removal of tree stumps and
whatnot and then I'm running my feeder
group ahead, and right now they're
on my neighbor's pasture next door.
I sectioned that down quarter.
Quarter, a half acre at a
time and rotate them around.
And then once they've picked through
the good stuff I have a spot down in the
valley that I mowed earlier this summer
because we have a weed called smart weed.
Cal: Oh, okay.
I'm not familiar with it.
Anthony: It just grows
ridiculously well in wooded areas.
Cal: Oh,
Anthony: okay.
It's a green plant.
It's low.
It might get knee high, but it gets these
real little pinkish red dots on it that
are the seeds and deer will browse on it
a little bit, but nothing really likes it.
So I did mow that out and got
the grass to perk back up.
And I've never seeded grass down there,
but through mowing, it has started to
come through and this will be our first
time grazing that as we've gotten rid
of some of the cherry trees and whatnot.
So we're flexible in terms of, yeah,
let's go a little bit longer on this
or, let's fence off an area over there.
I don't mow grass.
Okay.
The only grass I mow is the ditch along
the road between the pavement and the
fence, and right next to the driveway.
That's a term of flexibility to where
I run poly rope up to one corner
of the house, and then it comes off
the other corner to the pasture.
Cal: And Anthony, I'm laughing
because my dad makes fun of me
earlier this summer, my dad.
My nephew mows my parents yard, he mows
his mom's yard, and his yard, and then
usually, and we all share a lawnmower, so
he usually just drops it off down here,
or I have it stored in the barn, and he
was like, hey, I'm getting that mower,
he says, Do you want me to mow yours?
I'm like, Oh no, I don't
want you to mow it.
I'm putting sheep in there.
Yep.
So, so, so I'm that crazy person
too, who my wife doesn't mind that I
graze as much as I can with animals.
Anthony: So when I can get three or four
days of feed off of the yard around the
house, and our kids are small enough
that they don't need a lot of yard space.
Oh
Speaker 6: yeah.
Anthony: So, And honestly, our
property, we have a lot of clay.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Anthony: We're either sand or
clay, and neither are great.
So, right now in Michigan, we
had some rain Thursday night.
It was less than a quarter inch of rain.
The most recent rain before
that was probably less than a
quarter inch three weeks before.
So I we're getting into a drought.
Oh
Speaker 6: yes.
Anthony: And I haven't even
been able to feed my side yard.
Oh yeah.
Because we have
the clay, there's so little organic matter
that the moisture just doesn't hold.
So actually the pasture closest to
our side yard, which is the one I
would branch up to the side yard
to feed off of I ran our group.
Okay.
Round bales for probably
three weeks a month
Speaker 6: in that
Anthony: pasture.
I, I did some round bales, but I
found out squirrel bales make a lot
more waste in a round bale feeder.
Oh yes.
So bale grazing that side yard with
squirrel bales did really great.
So that little bit of rain we
got yesterday or Thursday night.
held a lot more moisture than if I
would have, like, let them eat it
clean or do round bales in the feeder.
Because when I do hay, if I have
like tree rows that don't get dry,
I bale them and then they just come
home and they go out to the cows.
And instead of, Oh, okay.
They'll hold up.
Okay.
They might make a little mold.
I just, I set them in a spot and
I feed them out and I don't have
to worry about giving them to a
customer and getting a bad reputation.
They just feed my herd
instead of a round bale.
Oh
Cal: yeah.
Anthony: It does them pretty
good, especially when you're on
second or third cutting with a
good amount of alfalfa in there.
Oh yeah.
But yeah, so that bale grazing
has been a, it's been bittersweet.
It's helped our ground like that.
Cause what I'll actually do is
all that will get tilled in.
I know a lot of people
aren't a fan of rototilling.
But, being the way our property was
before there were a lot of tree stumps
and whatnot that got removed, so we have
a bunch of divots and voids and crests
in the ground that are in if you are
mowing the grass, it's terrible, but it's
also terrible driving a tractor across
if you're moving bales or something.
So we're using the rototiller
to level things out and make it,
oh, okay, easier on the animals.
They're not tripping over
ridges in the ground and yeah,
potholes from a tree stump.
Cal: I think with that, when we talk
about regenerative ag and we talk about
not disturbing the soil, not using
chemicals, not using fertilizer rotating
our animals that's all a goal for us.
I think it's a goal for you, it's a goal
for me, but to get there, sometimes we
have to use some of those tools that's
in our toolbox, such as rototilling
that, so you're leveling some areas out.
And there's different ways to do
it, but that's the tool you have.
To do it.
So, we have to be conscious of what
our context is and we can look at,
down the road, this is where we want
to be, but just because we're not
there today does not mean it's bad.
It just means.
It's going to slow our
progress a little bit.
Maybe if we're doing some things
that's not best for the soil,
we know where we're going.
So it's a tool for you to use.
Anthony: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, as much as I don't like the idea of
it, I'm not hard set in any certain way,
I understand, I've seen more tillage does
kill the soil, that's part of the reason
why our ground is so terrible around us.
Everybody tells, we, we still have
farmers that go out and they a local
small town farmer, They plow twice a year,
Speaker 6: like
Anthony: this, and then they got a,
fertilizer bill that's just crazy.
A farm next door I've been trying to rent
the landowner, old timer, hasn't farmed
and I don't know if he's ever farmed
it or it's just always been rented out.
But he thinks the farmer's doing
such a great job because he
puts so much fertilizer down.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's building the
soil and I'm like, no, but.
Sometimes you can't teach
an old dog new tricks.
And
Cal: you mentioned earlier, you've talked
to some of these landowners about grazing
animals and they're not quite there yet.
And just, I think the most important
thing there is relationships.
And those don't happen overnight.
And depending on the person,
it takes even longer.
It may take even longer or a lot longer.
So, I think even with your neighbor
like that, it's just about building that
relationship and continuing down that road
till you get that relationship and maybe
at some point you're able to do that.
Anthony: Yeah, well, that's what we keep
working for, push, but not shove right.
Try to get there.
Well, that's probably been
one of our biggest issues.
I would say most of the generational
farms in our area, they're ran by
people that are getting to that age to
where they've been there for a while.
So things are set up and comfortable.
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.
So
Anthony: there's no reason to change.
But for that same reason, things
are going to have to change because
they're I would say at least two of
the three neighboring properties around
us are being operated and managed by.
Families that are in their seventies.
Oh yeah.
So how long can you really do that?
Yeah, some people live to be 90,
but others don't make it to 50.
So, and they're just rolling with
it until, Doctrines have to change.
Cal: Yeah, and I think we're
seeing that throughout ag that
average age is increasing and
wondering about the next journey.
I talk about my animals, my operations,
and my dad is 76 and he's got his
own operation, which I provide.
A fair amount of labor for it.
And now he's got my nephew helping
him now, which has been really nice.
In fact we just started fall calving
season with his cows and I've
tagged zero of them, my nephew has
tagged them, which has been nice.
And then my grandpa up
the road still runs cows.
Now he runs them with my uncle.
Who is 60 so but my grandpa's 98.
Yeah.
So, yeah that still people going and
doing stuff and we're seeing that age
But then the next thought is who's coming
up who's going to take their places?
Anthony: Yeah, and I think that's
been one of our limitations is we
have this older generation still going
But the next generation, it really
isn't getting a foot in the door,
Cal: you say that and I think
that's a I hate to say issue.
That is a concern.
And I've heard it other places as well.
And I could apply it here and
think, My dad ought to take a
step back, but he enjoys it.
So I don't know, I do get
that and I do hear that.
And I do think it's true
in a lot of aspects.
I don't know what the answer is.
Yeah, it's one of those things.
Anthony: Unfortunately, I think it comes
down to just being an ultimatum of, like
we were talking on the hay equipment.
You just run it until it has to.
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.
Anthony: Yeah.
It is.
I know the one family farm in our area.
The old man, I'd say, is in his late 70s,
somewhere around that age, and even some
of the grandsons aren't even getting lead
weight in some of the operations, and,
they're just there being able bodies, and.
Oh, yeah.
Cal: Yeah, that's a tough thing
to work through is releasing that
control to the next generation to do
stuff or for them to do more things.
I talk about my dad and I quite often on
the podcast, but that's been a struggle
for us throughout the years because
it's his operation and we're partners
on some things, but he's got his thing
that he is the operator on or the owner.
He's not so much.
He would cringe if I say
he's not the operator because
he's down here doing stuff.
Yeah.
I'm doing a ton of stuff.
And he is given my voice more weight now,
but it's taken us decades to get here.
It's a tough dance to go through.
And I think ranching for profit, when
they talk about families and working
on the farm versus working in the farm,
I think that could be a tremendous
benefit for a lot of those people.
I say a lot of those people.
For a lot of us, I don't want to it'd
be beneficial for any of us, I believe.
Anthony: Yeah.
Yeah, I think that is one thing that
lacks is, just general communication.
Oh, yeah.
Cal: So, I got a question
on that's non ag related.
How's communication at your job?
Terrible.
Okay, so, so, why I'm saying that, I
worked in education for over two decades,
and the common complaint is communication.
The common I think, Now, I'm going
to go out on a limb and say, most
places the issue is communication.
We're either saying stuff and we're
not saying what we truly mean, or the
communication is just not happening.
And the people who need
to know, don't know.
And it's Not often because people
think, oh, I don't want to tell them.
They just think, well, they
don't need to know that.
I just won't burden them with that.
Oftentimes they do need to know.
So that communication piece, I think
everyone in the world needs to work on.
Anthony: Yep.
Yeah.
The shop I work in communication
is definitely a big issue.
It definitely puts a hitch in the day
and a few words can go a long way.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Go a step further.
All of our marriages.
or relationships with other people.
Communication is such a huge factor
and would make a big difference.
My wife and my communication,
I think is really good at this
point, it's taken years for us
to figure that out and get there.
And I'm sure in five years, we'll
look back and say, Oh, we really had
a lot of growth to do at that point.
But, it's a journey.
Hey, Anthony rather than continue
on this communication tangent, let's
talk a little bit about your animals.
You mentioned you have hair sheep
you mainly working with Katahdin,
or Katahdin crosses there?
Anthony: I believe they're Katahdin,
and they're whole, they were cheap.
Cal: Yeah.
Well, that's an important thing.
And we'll come back to
that in just a moment.
What kind of cows are you running?
Cheap cows.
Well, okay, Anthony, They
weren't bought this year, so That
makes them cheaper, doesn't it?
Let's stop right there because both
of those answers bring us to the over
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Cal: We're going to
talk a little bit about.
We'll just say cheapness right now.
Economical.
Economical.
Because cheap has that
negative connotation.
It does.
And we really don't want that
because, let's talk about
economical in your situation.
Anthony: Yes.
So, I would define economical
as something that you can afford
without taking out a loan.
It might not be the highest quality,
but it's reasonable in the aspect
that it's healthy in producing.
So we're not a big income family.
We're both working day jobs
and, Wife's a school teacher.
I'm a diesel mechanic.
Farming was just a side gig for us.
And when it came down to buying
stock, livestock, our cattle
started with weaned bottle babies.
Just, something we could afford,
raised, they were healthy, turned off.
Off the bottle, on the grass and
grain once we get them we put them on
just grass and but they're not, High
dollar, registered, Angus, Hereford,
South Pole because that's just not
where we're at in our situation.
A couple years ago, you could pick
up bottle babies off the bottle
for four or five hundred dollars.
This year You're talking a
thousand dollars on a wiener?
Cal: Yeah, I would guess so as well.
I haven't priced those, but I know
bottle calves are that 500 range.
Now, it's interesting with bottle calves.
I saw someone on Facebook and actually
had I seen it a little bit earlier.
Earlier they had a twin born
and the mom wasn't taking it.
So they're like first person
here with 250 gets it.
I saw it an hour after it
was posted and it was gone.
I would have drove over there.
Of course, it was like 10 minutes from me.
And got the baby for 250.
But I've seen them, I've seen
them as high as like 600.
So one thing you mentioned
there, you're buying winged.
Calves, weaned bottle babies rather
than the bottle babies themselves.
Why are you doing that?
Anthony: I don't have experience
with bottle babies and working a
day job, having two kids the time
invested to do it right and make sure
they're healthy and growing right,
isn't in our situation right now.
Oh, I think
Cal: you are exactly point
on there with bottle calves.
They take a lot more time than you think.
Once you get started on them, I
used to buy bottle calves, dairy
calves, and I tried to buy them
when I was working for school.
I'd buy them during spring break.
So I had a week off that because you got
to check them, in my opinion, when you're
bringing bottle babies in and you're
watching and make sure they're doing okay.
And we always taught them to drink
out of a bucket versus a bottle.
It would take me hours.
So I wanted that time.
And once I hit two weeks of age, Much
smoother, but those first two weeks I
had to spend a lot of time with them
to make sure they were started good And
then even at two weeks of age you still
got that twice a day feeding and stuff
So I think experience with it and having
time to do it is a great reason to buy
bottle babies that have just been weaned
Anthony: yeah, our biggest
thing is just Being healthy.
So starting out with our cow and
donkey about five years ago, the
donkey has been our only death
on the farm other than chickens,
Speaker 6: chickens,
Anthony: or, something gets up,
they run into something, you
find one dead, it's it's not even
a high mortality rate at that.
You, we might find one, one or two
a year that, just died or whatnot.
And we don't rotate like our laying hens.
We don't rotate them out when
they're two years old or whatnot.
We just, they're there to disturb
the poop and bugs and lay eggs.
And when they get old.
And but yeah, the donkey has
been our only large livestock
death, even among the hogs.
We've probably done close to 50.
50 hogs in the last year and
a half, and no sickness there.
Once we get good or bottle babies,
they carry through pretty good.
I've had a vet in for one
cow, or one, one calf heifer.
We had no clue what was going on with her.
At the point the vet came in, she
was two years old, and I was getting
ready to look at doing some breeding.
And she was probably 36 inches tall.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Anthony: 40 at max.
And I had a vet come in and do
a wellness check and she said,
Nope, everything's healthy.
Her heart's good.
She's a dwarf.
Oh.
And this was out of a
registered Hereford herd.
Bought her in with a group of
bottle babies from a buddy.
Oh,
Cal: yes.
Anthony: We just thought
she was so cute and fuzzy.
And she was.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Anthony: And so we ended up selling
her off as just a mini cow, and that's
something we wanted to keep around.
It doesn't serve us much purpose if
we can't breed her or eat her, so.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Now, you mentioned your hogs there.
Are you bringing those in as feeders?
Anthony: Yes we're buying them in
as feeders anywhere from 40 to 90
pounds, depending on when we get them.
I buy those about 10, 10,
15 minutes away from home.
We just do a commercial breed.
We tried some American Guinea hogs.
They were okay, but they
were too much maintenance.
Oh, yeah.
Because you have to limit their diet.
I had to go out, measure out
feed twice a day, and yes, they
forage, but even restricting their
feed, they got real fatty, and
just, we found them hard to sell.
We moved to just regular commercial
breed feeders, whether they're a
Durock or Berkshire, Blue Butt,
whatever I can get from my local
farm about 10 15 minutes away.
Oh, yeah.
We find they all do pretty
good, as long as I don't get
too many gilts in the group.
Speaker 6: Oh,
Anthony: yeah.
We had a group that was split 50 50 with
gilts, and they were significantly behind.
Oh, yeah.
Weight wise, that butcher.
I want to say we took them all up.
To the borrows in that group were over 200
hanging, where the guilt for around 150,
Cal: 160.
Oh yeah, there's a big difference there.
Anthony: Same age, same
letters same feed, but.
You can see the difference in
a four to six month raise out.
Cal: You talked about being
economical or frugal and making
sure in your livestock purchases.
How does that apply to the
rest of your farm operation?
Anthony: We do everything.
I've scrolled through
Facebook, Marketplace, Google.
specific groups.
I almost laugh when I ask, when
I see a post for somebody hiring
somebody to put up a cattle fence.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Anthony: I couldn't even imagine what
it would cost for me to pay somebody to
come in and fence in a five acre pasture.
Like, for me, that is, most places,
businesses, whether it's a fence company,
a truck shop, a plumbing service,
they're over 100 an hour bill out.
So I know the time I have
into my fencing and I couldn't
even fathom the cost of that.
So, I generally work by myself.
Sometimes my dad will come over.
He's more of a lawn chair supervisor.
Yeah.
But we do all, everything on our
own, except for Raising piglets,
we don't do any farrowing.
We find it easier to just buy feeders
the cost of a sow and knowing how
to breed them and keep them going.
Cal: At the time.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
So, so when you think about economically
you're buying some undervalued animals.
that come into your system and can
appreciate in value, not necessarily a
short turnaround, because when you're
buying those weaned bottle calves,
you've got a long turnaround on them.
Yeah.
You're able to get in there with
low costs and you're using time
as a way to lower your costs.
And then you're using your own labor
to do everything in addition to you and
your wife, both having full time jobs.
Anthony: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cal: And
Anthony: most people find it crazy.
The, we have seven cows, half a
dozen sheep, about 14 hogs right now,
almost two dozen chickens, and two
little children, and still try to
get 40 hours a week, and it's busy.
Cal: Yeah, oh, I'm sure, sure it is.
Do you Is this where you want to be?
You're enjoying it and doing this
kind of on a small scale, or would you
like to grow enough that eventually
you could just do this full time?
Anthony: So, ideologically, we
would like to quit my day job,
but we also don't want to be huge.
One thing I think, and I understand
the economical need for people
to put out as much as they can,
but we would like to replace our
incomes and supply to our community.
Speaker 6: We don't
Anthony: want to get to the point to where
We're wholesaling just to move stock.
We want to be able to reach out to our
direct community, sell farm to table, farm
to consumer maybe some local restaurants,
but we don't want to, I don't think we
want to get to the point where we're
moving a hundred head of cow every year.
Or doing 5, 000 chickens.
It's just something for us to do.
Have our income, live on our farm,
and make a little impact on our
community, offer what's needed.
Excellent.
Cal: Anthony, it is time for us to
transition and move to our famous four
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They're the same four questions
we ask of all of our guests.
Our first question.
What is your favorite grazing
grass related book or resource?
Anthony: So, I actually
just started a new book.
Let me look it up here.
So, with my full time day job, I
found Audible to be very handy.
Oh, yes.
So this is where I actually
came across podcasts.
And when I started looking at,
into regenerative ag, I started
listening to all kinds of podcasts.
And then probably about, Eight months
ago, I started listening to audible.
I came across one.
I've listened to, the, what I would
call the typical regenerative ag
books, Gabe Brown's dirt to soil.
Joe Salton has many of them,
Speaker 6: but
Anthony: I came across this one by
Forrest Richard called gaining ground
Speaker 6: and I
Anthony: am, Oh, let's see.
I am on chapter 12 of it.
And I have found it to be
a very level headed book.
I'm not completely through it, but it's
I believe he's where I'm at on things.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Anthony: And different aspects is, I
didn't inherit a firm that was, It's
severely broken, in debt, but I'm starting
at ground zero and trying to build
this with minimal income and resources.
So it's been a good book to work through.
Cal: I
Anthony: don't think
anybody's mentioned it before.
Cal: No, I don't think so.
I'm not familiar with that book,
so I'm going to have to, excuse me,
I'm going to have to look it up.
Anthony: Yeah.
So I don't know if you can see that.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Yeah, very
Anthony: good.
He actually had a Joe Salton experience
before Joe Salton was known as he is now.
Oh, yes.
He's over in that area.
Oh, okay.
Went to one of his early on conferences.
Cal: Well, I will have to look that up.
Appreciate it.
I'm always excited to hear something
new that I haven't heard of.
I'm always like, how did I not hear of it?
But it's always good.
I came across someone
other day and they were.
I'd asked them something about the podcast
and they hadn't heard of the podcast.
I'm like, I thought I had
word out everywhere about the
podcast, but obviously not.
Yeah.
Our second question, Anthony, what
is your favorite tool for the farm?
Anthony: I'm going to be unconventional
here and say the, these, It's Isotune's 2.
0 link and I can wear them
and still function while
I'm operating hay equipment.
Tractors moving hay.
I don't have to stop.
I don't have to look at a phone screen.
I love, my poly reels and whatnot.
They make things a lot easier.
But to be a little bit different, it's
nice to have somebody call me, whether
it's about meat sales, or a question
on hay equipment, or my dad in another
field, I can just hit a button, answer
the phone, and the day keeps going.
I've had other headsets and
earbuds that, you have to stop.
I've had to go as far as shut the
equipment off just so I could have
a phone conversation to tell my dad
which field to go to next or whatnot.
Cal: And that's where I am.
I use some air noise counseling
earbuds that work great for that.
And I can listen to podcasts.
I can listen to Audible,
Audible, and it works great.
But if I get a phone call, I've got to
shut the tractor down so they can hear me.
Yeah, so that's a real
nice advantage there.
Our third question, Anthony, what would
you tell someone just getting started?
Anthony: Be economical.
If you came in, even if you had 50, 000
to dump on a startup, don't blow it.
We've only operated on cash that
we've had in the bank or have
brought in through the farm.
We run completely separate
finances for our livestock,
hay feed, anything like that.
We set aside a separate bank account
and we try to operate the farm
completely off of that account.
So that way we know, Hey, it's a lot
easier to see if you're going broke.
If I got 50 left in the farm account,
like I know it's not bringing in enough.
Now if I see, I've got, 10, 000 in
there, then it's like, Oh, but you
still gotta remember, you, you gotta go.
Till your next paycheck on that, right.
Do what you can or learn what you
can, I see posts on Facebook of
people asking to pay somebody to come
out and teach them how to butcher.
That might be a hard thing to do, but.
It's better than just taking, if
you're making meat for yourself
that you can butcher on site
Speaker 6: and put in
Anthony: your freezer, that's a lot
better than paying a butcher every time.
And if it's a skill you can gain,
that's a lot better than paying
somebody else to do it every time.
Cal: Excellent advice there, Anthony.
And one thing I want to touch on, you talk
about a separate account for your farm.
I think that's so important.
And you talk about if you got 50 in
there, that's all you've got in there.
Mike Malowiczcz, and I'm sure I'm
saying that wrong, I'm practicing
with his Profit First book.
I love that book and I love
his philosophy behind there.
In fact, he's writing a
personal finance book currently.
Psychologically, we see that
amount in there and we think,
oh, that's what we can spend.
So I think, so I try and be very
careful with that account and I try
and keep a low amount in there and I
have some in savings because if I see
it and I'm like, oh, that'd be nice
to have, well, do I really need it?
Yeah, and I have things I don't need,
but at the same time I think being
very economical with it's a great way,
especially if you're starting, it's
still a great way for everyone else too.
Anthony: Yeah like a current situation,
that would be, say I see a thousand
dollars in there and I'm using the
makeshift gates right now, which is
a piece of a fence with a post in it.
Bale twine to the next post.
And it's like, Hey, I have
a thousand dollars in there.
I could go buy, a couple of 12 foot gates.
And it's like, well, I really
don't need to move the cows back
through that gate for a month.
So it's like, eh, let's
keep that in there.
Cal: Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 4: And lastly, Anthony, where
can others find out more about you?
Speaker 5: So our only social media
representation would be a Facebook
page of Long Ear Junction Services.
The name started with our donkeys and
doing some model railroad stuff, and then
bringing in the multi species herd, so we
just figured that was a good combination.
We're no social media stars by
the matter but we do post up some
pictures and videos every now and
then our meat sales when we have time.
Butcher date set up.
Speaker 4: Oh, very good.
Speaker 5: Very good,
Speaker 4: Anthony.
Really appreciate you
coming on and sharing today.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
I think it's been good.
This is a whole new thing for me other
than, doing some webinars and whatnot.
Well, thank you,
Cal: I really hope you
enjoyed today's conversation.
I know I did.
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