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Join Liz Morris and Bill LuMaye on this episode of 'Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit,' as they explore the inspiring journey of Carrot Top Industries' transformation into Freedom and Glory. Learn about their mission to bring meaningful change through flag sales and community impact. Special guest Eric Henry, president of TS Designs, shares his powerful story of resilience in the textile industry post-NAFTA, the importance of sustainability, and the innovative steps his company is taking in the apparel industry. Get an inside look at the challenges of globalization, the impact of NAFTA on American jobs, and the ongoing battle for sustainable and local manufacturing.
00:00 Introduction to Freedom and Glory
00:28 The Story Behind the Name Change
02:14 Customer Stories and Impact
03:42 Liz's Personal Journey and Philosophy
06:49 Introducing Eric Henry of TS Designs
07:50 The Impact of NAFTA on American Manufacturing
12:13 Challenges and Strategies in Sustainable Business
21:21 Transparency and the Dirt to Shirt Program
27:31 The Issue of Microplastics
30:36 The Roots of Sustainability
31:04 Early Influences and Organic Gardening
31:45 Industrial Agriculture and Its Impact
33:15 Expanding Sustainable Practices
33:44 Community and Business Resilience
36:20 Piedmont Agrarian Collaborative
37:28 Local Economic Impact and Multiplier Effect
39:08 Challenges of Globalization and COVID-19
42:37 Reviving Local Manufacturing
47:05 Innovations in Sustainable Apparel
52:44 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
55:07 Policy and Future Directions
59:15 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Creators and Guests
What is Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit?
Welcome to Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit—a podcast celebrating the heart of American craftsmanship, resilience, self-reliance, and the power of disruption. Through inspiring stories and authentic storytelling, we shine a spotlight on individuals and communities who embody these values, proving that small, determined efforts can spark meaningful change.
Join us as we share personal tales of triumph, innovation, and hope—moments that define the American spirit and shape our nation’s identity. Whether you’re seeking motivation to pursue your dreams or a reminder of the power of community, Freedom and Glory offers a powerful dose of inspiration rooted in resilience and determination.
Listen, be inspired, and take action.
13 Freedom and Glory
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Welcome to Freedom and Glory Tales of American Spirit where every flag tells a story, and so does every person who raises one join Liz Morris and Bill Lume for conversations with people making a difference in their communities, reminding us that even the smallest actions can spark lasting change.
[00:00:28] Default_2025-12-22_2: Liz, I'm just gonna confront you with something that seems obvious to me, but maybe not to our viewers and listeners yet, but I noticed there's been a name change of the company and I'm, I'm wondering why. Yeah, so Carrot Top Industries, we've changed our name to Freedom and Glory.
And, um, you know, my dad, Dwight, yes. Our first guest on the show, um, he started this company in his attic in Chicago and he always knew he wanted to sell flags, um, but he didn't think he could make enough, you know, just selling flags. So he called the company Carrot Top Industries. Also, he had red hair. Um, but 45 years later, you know, the name doesn't, um, reflect kind of who we are.
And so, um, as we listen to customers, you know, we realize it's not just about selling flags, it's about the, the moments they mark. And I think freedom and glory really puts words to that. Oh, it really does. And you're right. You know, the flag symbolizes an awful lot to most people, and they always have a story behind it, why they feel the way they feel.
Would you mind sharing? Do you have a customer or two that you might be able to tell us a little bit about what they're saying about the The new name? Yeah. Yeah. So. The last year, you know, I've really talked to a lot of customers 'cause I was, I was nervous about changing the name and I think, you know, a lot of them have always said, wow, carrot top industries, it's so unique.
Yeah. Um, but, but they get, you know, it's confusing. To older folks who know the comedian, um, you know, they'll say, are you related to the, the comedian at all? Um, and for people who aren't aware of the comedian, you know, it just doesn't align. They don't think of flags when they, um, think of those words. And, um, so I think, you know, I, I'll tell a story about, I talked to a customer of ours in Wisconsin.
He, um, for 25 years, he was a police officer. He retired and he went to his wife and said, um, you know, I feel like I have a calling. I want to own a funeral home. Um, which I thought was so interesting and unique, just even that. But, um, he, you know, has brought this program, I guess to, to his funeral services where, you know, if you're a veteran, if you're a member of civil service, um.
You know, if you served in the EMS, he'll fly that flag during the, um, the, the ceremony. And, um, he even flies a flag for, um, if you're donating your, your organs. Um, and he said it's, it's, you know, it's a little thing, but it's one of the best things he's done for his business and just, you know, the people that come up to him and say, thank you for honoring, you know, whatever.
My family member by this loved one. Um, I think it's just that, that little thing that, like I said, it, it makes a big difference. Well, you've talked about that too. You know, a little spark can create big change. In fact, many of the guests that are on the program have done the very same thing. Um, why do you think that is?
What, where does that come from? Yeah, so for me, um, you know, I, I grew up playing a lot of sports. I. Was super competitive. I loved and still love winning. And, um, you know, I have the honor of being recruited to play field hockey at UNC. And when I got there, you know, it was the first time in my life where I wasn't the best one there.
You know, this was a, a team of people made up of the best from their own high schools. That was really hard for me, I think, to kind of transition to that. And my coach told me about an analogy of a drop of die in a bucket of water. And, um, that has really impacted me, you know, in how I thought about how, what's a different way that I can add value to a team besides, you know, being the top score.
And, um, you know, that's where this analogy kind of comes from is the idea that even a small action can produce a lasting change. And I think, you know, that's a lot of what our customers do, um, is these small, determined actions that kind of ripple out. How does your dad feel about this? Yeah. So, and is there No, honestly.
Well, you can tell me how he feels. Yeah. But you know, everybody knows Carrot Tap, uh, anything changing besides the name or is the same so. My dad is so supportive when, when I took over, he's always been like, Liz, I get it. The name's confusing. If you wanna change it, you have my full backing. And he's been a part of this whole, honestly, like almost a two year journey.
Um, we wanted to come up with something that really. Um, had a story behind it that meant something to both he and I, I mean, I think for him, you know, building the business he wanted to do just what I just talked about, he wanted to have an impact on people and he felt like, you know, he could, the decisions that he made were to impact his employees and impact the customers he wanted to touch.
Um, so I love that this kind of brings. My story together with his legacy. 'cause that was really important to me. And, um, in terms of, you know, what's, what's staying the same, what's changing? I mean, everything that matters is staying the same. So, you know those folks that same family ownership, same people that, that take the orders and our flag pros that really care.
Um, same people picking and packing the orders the same. American made quality, that's all staying the same. So just changing the name that finally, you know, says what we've always believed. Well, I appreciate you sharing. I think it's a fabulous name. The comedian's a little upset. I know. But other than that, I think this is wonderful.
Thank you.
[00:06:49] Default_2025-12-22_1: Today we're joined by Eric Henry, president of TS Designs, a North Carolina based apparel company, re-imagining how clothes are made in America, and a pioneer in rebuilding manufacturing through sustainability, transparency, and community. Thanks for joining us, Eric. Well, thank you so much for having me.
Can you tell us a little about yourself? Oh my gosh, where do I start? Um, been on this planet now for 68 years. I actually started a business while I was at NC State in 1978, creative screen Design. And all we did is just sold t-shirts that on the college campuses great business model. Two years after that met my business partner Tom, who founded a, a company in Burlington called TIA Designs.
And in 1980 we merged and became, you know, TS I incorporated. He became the CEO and I became the president. And we grew to what they call a large contract screen printer. And we were doing work for pretty much all the major brands. Tommy, Nike, gap, polo, and really the I guess the junction of my, where I am today was an event that happened on January 1st, 1994.
And that was a ratification of nafta. Mm-hmm. North American Free Trade Agreement. So prior to that, uh, we just moved into a new building in Burlington that we had built a 20,000 square foot building, had about 120 employees, um, successful growing businesses, no problem borrowing money and, you know, on the path of doing everything, investing in our people and planet.
And, um, two years after nafta, uh, all those brands had left and I had the unfortunate job of laying off over a hundred of those 120 employees. But I also realized at that time there's more to a business than a bottom line. And we were an early adopter, what they call the triple bottom line of people, planet and profit.
And that's been the journey we've been on ever since. Will you share a little bit about what NAFTA is? What, what that, how that changed? Industry. Yes. Uh, NAFTA was North American Free Trade Agreement and it was an agreement between Canada, United States and Mexico. So two industrialized country, one developing country.
And I always remember the story we went to, or invited, fortunately to a, uh, meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, I would say 1992. And, um, they were talking about how this is going to grow our marketplace. I'll never forget we were sitting in the office and at that time the two largest textile companies in the world were Burlington Industries based outta Greensboro, North Carolina.
And that's how I came to North Carolina. My dad used to work for them and Guilford Mills. And so we're sitting in, you know, this big auditorium with all these people from all these countries of those three countries there, you know, department of Commerce and economic developers say, oh, we're gonna grow this market here.
I'll never forget exactly what I said to my partner, but something to the fact that, you know, um, you know, that person in Mexico, which again is a developing country, is not gonna buy an $18 Nike t-shirt. Nike's gonna go to Mexico and make those t-shirts, and sure enough, Nike, Tommy Gap, polo, Adidas, any brand quickly saw, we can go to a place like Mexico, make this too much cheaper, and then bring it back to the states.
And we're gonna make more money. And as Ross Perot said, at that time, that giant sucking sound. And that's what happened. I mean Alamance County was one of those ground zero places that, I mean, we were devastated. I mean, the, the loss of jobs and business was just unbelievable. And, um, it was a devastating time, not only for our community, but that was the start of the globalization of our apparel industry, which if you look at today, 97% of our close are made overseas.
But the biggest challenge that we've got, and the problem we got, 30% of the close manufacture day, 30% are never, ever sold. Mm-hmm. There's an image of a place in Chile, and you can see the pile of clothes on a satellite. 60,000 metric tons of brand new clothes and the, the pile of clothes is almost as big as the town it sits beside.
So that's where we are with the apparel industry today. And NAFTA was just a start. There's been a lot of other trade agreements and there continues to be. One thing I like to say, Liz, is that we live in a global economy. We're not putting that genie back in the bottle, but we're not also understanding the impact and the downside of where we're only focused on the single bottom line, and we're neglecting what happens to people in planet.
NAF was something that was sold or not only to businesses, but to the public that this is gonna be great, right, because you're gonna get cheaper goods. So in a way they were pretty upfront. You caught it. Yeah. Right out of the gate. Most people didn't, but we got cheaper goods. But something terrible happened to the overall country and, and in regards to manufacturing and jobs, didn't it?
Yes. Uh, and you, you're trying to bring that back and. I don't know how you do that, do you? Well, you must, you have a plan, but, uh, it's, it's hard. Is that the, is that the triple bottom line plan you got? Yes. And, um, it has been challenging because, I mean, human nature, instinctive, if you. If I give you a $5 item and $10 item, and that's all I leave you with, of course you're gonna buy the $5 item.
And, you know, the, the, the challenge that we, and it's becoming more challenged now because we don't talk about the impact to people and planet. One thing I like to say with this current change of administration, we've exchanged people and planet for power and profit. And what I always like to say is that we will compete with anybody globally.
We have to talk beyond just price. What's the social environmental impact that decision has? And unfortunately, we're living now in a time where there's less and less of that discussion and more of that immediate gratification that seems to be true of human nature. Mm-hmm. Just in general. So explain, I mean.
How do you succeed on a plan like that? Because you're still dealing with the marketplace, right? Yes. And they do shop and price is a big factor in that. Yes. How? How do you deal with that? It's tough and it has been challenging and I says it is more challenging now. We are not giving up on our values of at triple bottom line.
Matter of fact, I was, you know, this year's probably gonna be one of the toughest years we've had in over 45 years of being in business. Part of that is for some reason we have lost that partnership with our government because the way I look at government is they're the ones that put the speed limits on the highway.
Mm-hmm. And that way we know the rules to play by, and we've kind of have this mentality now. No, I'll determine what speed I wanna drive. Well, we know how well that's gonna work. If we take a rather speed limit signs and you drive 20, I drive a hundred, we're both probably gonna die. But the other addition about Speedline, you've gotta have regulation.
You know, you can't just say, you know, you can't do this. Well, what happens, and again, I use that great analogy, is that, you know, if you do drive a hundred miles an hour on the highway, obviously it's over the speed limit and there's people that won't force the law and you get tickets and things happen.
For some reason we're losing that. And I think climate change is a perfect example of that. I mean, we're walking away from science and, um, science is not gonna change. And you know, those problems are not going away. And I'm just concerned they're gonna get a lot worse in the years to come because we are neglecting the long-term impact.
And being a small business owner, I'm aware of that and we'll do everything we can, but you know. You know, too, running a small business, you still got immediate things, you know, people's needs and payrolls and suppliers and stuff like that, that, you know, we need that partnership of a strong government that is here to, you know, support and think long-term and support, you know, small and large businesses.
Well, uh, how do you measure that? I mean, in your business? Um, I'm trying to. You wanna keep the doors open? Yeah. You wanna employ people, you want to pay them well and have all the, the benefits that you can provide for 'em, which means you, you, you, you're in a marketplace right now that isn't playing fair, let's say.
Right? NAFTA wasn't playing fair, right? No, no. Same thing. You, how do you, how do you succeed at it? So how do you measure, Hey, listen, this is the position we should take. Do you, do you, do you have a, a scale where you go, well, listen, we can't do this now, but maybe later. I mean, how, how, how do you. That's the word I'm looking for.
How do you balance, thank you. Balance that and, uh, and still have a successful business. Well, it, it's never going to be always balanced, but what I do like to say is everybody has a voice at the table. And when I say the voices of people, voice of the planet and voice of profit. We don't make those decisions in a vacuum.
You know, we're gonna do this solely for the profits. We're gonna do it solely for the planet. And a couple examples of that God gracious, we put our first solar array in and oh my gosh, 25 years ago, matter of fact, we're the first ones in Alamance County. When we put it up, a lot of people thought it was a satellite, one of these big satellite dishes.
They didn't know what it was. Uh, very inefficient, very expensive. But you know, we were an early adopter of, you know, man is having an impact on the climate. What can we do later that we put a much larger array in? But when we, we, you know, we look at our inputs, you know, where's our energy coming from? And we're still, probably about 90, 85 to 90% still comes from Duke Energy.
A lot of that is through fossil fuel. Mm-hmm. Uh, mostly natural gas, some coal. But anyway, you know, we wear that so. We could become completely a hundred percent carbon neutral and put a, you know, a solar panel a solar system completely on our 20,000 square foot roof. We would break the business and business goes out.
Sure. And then we have, so we're always balancing, right. Um, those values of people, planet, and profit. And I'll never forget, we had a conversation with our new staff just a couple weeks ago, and they knew how. Our business is struggling right now and sales are damn. And we had an opportunity to do work for a company and the values didn't align, you know?
And so one of the staff members, they know we need the business, but they also look at this order that was coming to us. And you know, they were kind of, what do we do? And I says, you know. If we do not stay with the values that are part of our, pretty much our DNA, I mean we've been doing since the late nineties.
So I mean, it's built into who we are and what we do. We'll just shut down the business. I will not, you know, make sacrifices to the way we run a business purely to stay in business. But it, again, it is extremely, you know, challenging time. But I wanna go back to something earlier. I think, you know, how do we compete?
Um, what we keep driving home is at the end of the day, getting the information, the consumer, making the consumer that has the ability to make that choice. Because we know some people are more, you know, they're concerned about, you know, where's the rent money going to come from? Where's the food money come?
You know, fortunately they're not gonna be interested in having a discussion where the clothes going come from. 'cause they're, they got more immediate needs. But those people that. Are interested in knowing. And again, it's what's happened a lot with the, the, um, the food. You know, we are what we eat, where's your food come from, and try to tap into that same market.
And what we drive in the apparel industry, it isn't a global marketplace, but one thing that so needed, the lack of transportation, uh, transparency. I mean, you're gonna have, you know, most likely the clothes you wear in this room are make not made in this country. Mm-hmm. And I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is I wanna know the facility in Bangladesh that made your jacket.
I want a website, I want a point of contact, let me talk, talk to 'em. Brands aren't gonna give you that. And, um, a little bit off topic of that, but a couple years ago I was involved with two congressional hearings around fast fashion. And again, that's another, you know, we have look at close as this instant gratifications.
And again, back to why we make so much stuff and have so much stuff. But anyway, when I was coming out of the hearing, one of the senator staffers says, what can we do? And I said to me, it's very easy if you sell a product in this country, then you have to make the transparency that supply chain completely available to the consumer.
Makes sense? Yeah. And so let me, you know, and I've had major brands come to TIA Designs and they talk about all their sustainability initiatives and I'm Well, that's great. I mean, it's amazing work. I just wanna know the facility in Bangladesh that made those jeans. Gimme the company, gimme point of contact and let me contact them.
Just don't show me your pretty pictures and tell me your stuff here. And I think that will go such a long way. And it's such, and these brands have that in, they'll tell you they don't, but that's how they make their money. Getting way off the subject. Here is a t-shirt today that we can go from the farm to the finished pro in 700 miles pre nafta.
You could do that in one county in North Carolina, but we're at 700 miles a t-shirt today can travel 40,000 miles before you get to your store. Get it? Because what the brands have become very successful is they move that product around for nickels, pennies. Because they're moving a lot of volume. So yeah, we'll go to that other country over there and they'll do the, you know, the printing in this country here and the packaging in this country and the distribution of that country there.
'cause those, those nickels add up when you're doing hundreds of thousands of units. But again, the more you do that, then the transparency becomes more and more murky. Yes. Is that your, you know, you have your Dirt to shirt program, um, is that, that's your 700 miles? Yes. Um, talk a little bit about that. I love the, the, the barcode you can scan.
So, yes, Liz. What happened in, you know, we, we go through nafta, we realize we're not gonna be the low cost producer. We are early adopter of the triple bottom line. And we say, wait a minute, we grow great cotton in North Carolina. So why don't we tap in that cotton? So I'll never forget, we went down to, uh, Burson and Sons down Stanley County, and this is sometime in the late nineties.
I was, I was told they were a, a farmer to talk to about, do, about at that time, about 3000 acres. So I went down there and talked to Ronnie. Ronnie is now retired, his son Andrew's, running the farm. So I went to Ronnie and says, you know, Ron, I wanna buy your cotton. I never forget, Ryan said, why do you wanna buy my cotton?
'cause you can buy all the t-shirts you want all day long. You know, at that time it was one 800. Now it's, you know, it's something on the internet. And I says, because you know, we want to know where our cotton comes from and I wanna be able to control the supply chain because again, we're not gonna grow it.
And it spin it, knit it, finish, cut it, so it, so, but I need to control that cotton to know where it goes to. So we started that in the late nineties. Buying the cotton from them. And, uh, if the first couple years we could do it all in North Carolina. And then as companies went outta business, took us to North Carolina, South Carolina, now it takes North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
Um, because it's been continued loss of, of businesses in our supply chain, uh, since that, and again, this last couple years has been the worst I've ever seen it. And loss of suppliers. So anyway, back to that. What we, we did is we realized then, you know, how do we validate that transparency, you know, I could just say Cotton of Carolinas and buy shirts in Honduras and do some fancy labeling and have some pretty pictures.
And so we started off with, and again, this is late nineties, is we actually put a contrasting colored thread in the sleeve in the hem of the shirt. And then when you would go to a website, which is still out there, it's a lot more modern. Used to be wear W-H-E-R-E, your clothing.com. You put in those two colors and when you put in those two colors, it would say, okay, this is supply chain that made that she, and in that we would give you back to the, the Burson, the cotton farmer.
You would have Ronnie's picture. Ronnie's email, Ronnie's phone number, Ronnie's fiscal address. And we did that throughout supply chain. So you don't have to contact me, you just go to that website. There's Ronnie call Ronnie, go see Ronnie. And so, um, fast forward to what we learned during COVID.
Everybody's used to cute scanning QR codes or get your restaurant menu. Mm-hmm. We said we're gonna print a QR code in our shirt, so you take our shirt and scan it and it'll give you that supply chain. Probably now we've got probably a dozen different supply chains built on that same model. So when we, you know, bring on a new supplier, like we're doing a lot of products with wool now, and so we work with Genie Carve out in Oregon.
And so, um, we start talking. So when I bring on a new supplier, the first thing I'll, I said, there has to be somebody within your organization that has to be a contact point. And so, um. Then from that, you know, we're going to connect you to our website and all that information. I've had a few suppliers that said they can't do that.
I said, that's fine, it's your business. But I said for, I mean, that is step one for us building a new supply chain is they have to agree, you know, to be a part of that transparency and a lot, you know, I'm not saying transparency is going to guarantee, you know that everything's perfect. Everything's great, but I can't guarantee there's no secrets.
And there's no, you know, where it came from, how it's made, because that's a, again, problem in the industry. A lot of times you see the pretty pictures and they say pretty things, and then you find out it's not where they say it was. Well, it sounds like you've made it easier. For the consumer. Yep. I, I would venture to say, but this anecdotal, because I'm lazy.
I, I, I'm serious. I Do you read the ingredients on something? No, no, no. I don't, you know, and I should, I really probably should. So when it comes to those who do care about the same things you care about, this would be something I can see where that, that would be, uh, beneficial. Because most people don't look at the, the details.
So how, what kind of feedback are you getting from folks who are buying new products and, uh, the labels and, um. I mean, obviously it's working for you, right? Yes. But I will just say in this current environment, it's more challenging than ever. 'cause we're not having those discussions of the, the other things beyond price.
You know, we don't talk about climate change anymore. Right. You know, there's a big issue out there. And that's the thing that's frustrating. And again, you know, being, being the old guy on the podcast here is that. We don't learn from our past mistakes. And I will, I'll take climate change as one of those things.
You know, I was a early, you know, I, I grew up, I guess it was my grandfather and working with him and doing a garden behind my parents' house growing up, you know, I was an early adopter of, you know, just how nature works. And so an early tree hugger, but, you know, started looking about looking at the data about climate change and in the early days and the doubt days of Al Gore.
It was, there was some questions there, but we just couldn't, you know, tie the, the two things together. Well now the science and I will depend on the science of people with the knowledge and education man has had any impact on climate. And so, um, fast forward to today, you know. We just don't get to talk about that and, and I'm, I'm afraid, you know, we, we're toes concerned to, it's too big of a problem to try to address that.
We won't do anything, don't say anything, and then the problem obviously gets worse. The newest challenge that I'm extremely concerned about and apparel is leading, this is microplastics. I got a great story there. You know, probably 10 years ago we actually built a brand called Carolina Blend, and it was gonna be 50% North Carolina cotton and 50% recycled polyester causing again.
10, 12 years ago it was all about recycling your water bottles and thank you so much for my glass of water here. 'cause most people would bring me up, you know, 10 years ago I would have table full of those disposable water bottles 'cause we didn't know. Right. You know, and the thing about, well we, so anyway, we built this whole supply chain in the Carolinas.
You know, you recycle polyester and um, 50% recycle polyester and 50% North Carolina cotton. And it was a brand called Carolina Blend. So I go to this conference. Around hemp. I'm gonna talk about hemp is a great fiber, has a great future. Um, and so the guy up on stage for some heard microplastics.
Microplastics. So, uh, I go back and start doing a little research, called him back up and you know, got his research that he had done and went back to our staff and I says, there's enough information here that we're gonna do a full stop. We basically killed the brand. Walked away from 10,000 pounds of yarn, which make about 15,000 t-shirts and says, we're, we're gonna stop.
Now. Fast forward to today, it's, it's a problem because it's in the water. We drink the air, we breathe. That's something we all share because we went and got our blood tests. It's in us. So we're putting something that's not natural into our bodies. And again, old guy here. What happens next 20 years? Fine.
I'm worried about the 5-year-old kid that's being subjected to that. What's gonna happen to them? Where is our government that's helping us map this out? And I think there was just a UN conference a couple months ago and trying to address the, just flood of plastics into an environment. We did nothing.
We walked away and I, I don't have the exact numbers, but I think they said in the next 10 years, we're gonna triple. The amount of plastics in our environment. I mean, again, we have an opportunity to recognize the problem, start solving the problem, but we'd rather just walk away from it. Money. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Keep saying the old guy here. Did you hear that? I know. I'd like this guy actually. I'm the old guy here. Yeah. But, uh, but you're absolutely right about the micro microplastics. wow. I mean, that's, you're putting a lot on the line though.
I mean, you could go the easy route, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh, and instead you're, you're kind of making a stand and trying to make a difference. Sustainability, I mean, did that happen in the garage with your, with your dad? I mean, when did that come, come to be such a powerful, passionate force for you? See it is for me too, but I'm really old.
Yeah. So I wanna sustain myself, but, uh, but, uh, how about for you to take? So, no, I, I think I really go back to, uh, I had a great relationship with my, my grandfather on my mom's side. Uh, mom just celebrated 92nd birthday two weeks ago. Good for her. So, uh, but anyway came very close and, uh, they moved to Burlington where my parents were, and I just, this was God definitely pre-high school.
So. Junior high school or something like that. I got interested in, you know, gardening. So we basically took my parents' backyard and put a little vegetable garden in there and helped me build a greenhouse. But the thing that always sticks in my mind there was that period of time, because back in these times, so we're going back, um, I was born in 57, so let's say mid sixties or something like that.
Um. Gardening and farming was organic by default. I mean, it just, so there was, it was a very complex system of, you know, how you, you know, uh, plants collaborate with each other, how you build a soil. I mean, it was a, it was a very complex system. And, um, this thing came out called Seven Dust. And this was going to thing that you could put on your plants.
It was gonna solve all your pest problems. And I was looking and I said, that's pretty cool, but it also kills all this good stuff. You know, and this was, this was, I was seeing firsthand the start of where we are with Industrial Act. We're using science to maximize the, you know, the production of the food or the vegetables or whatever we eat and what we're neglecting the impact it has.
And nature is a system. You know, we get a lot of pushback, what they call 'em, DEI. Well, nature's number one rule is called biodiversity. Nature doesn't work in a monoculture, it's a system and we're trying to, mother nature will win this war. You know, man tries to always, and we're seeing it right now with what's happening in agriculture today.
We keep, you know, throwing more at, to maximize the yield, but the damage is going to, the environment continues to grow.
I dunno, I keep lot looking at pictures of, uh, the sixties and seventies, these guys and gals on the beach, and they're a lot thinner than we are today. That's all I'm, yep. It's, uh, it's amazing the difference in just a generation or two. I, I mean, and, and you're kind of, you know, you're talking about agriculture.
I think you've taken this sustainability. Passion to other industries, you know, um, it sounds like it was a, a hobby of yours when you were little. Mm-hmm. But, um, I know you also started a, a grocery and now you started a brewery. Um, can you talk about some of those other projects that you've kind of expanded into?
Yes. Outside of apparel? Yes. Well, I, I've been fortunate to, uh, live in Alamance County now for 65, 66 years. And so, um, again, watching. Our business get destroyed ts designs with NAFTA in 1994. It says, how, what can I do to build businesses that are connective and resilient, sustainable, whatever word you wanna do in our community, and looked around.
So, um, yes, we, um, I lose track of dates, but we took an old a and p grocery store in downtown Burlington and created a coly owned grocery store. That did fail, but then it opened the idea. We created the first crop of the owned brewery, uh, Bronte Beer Works. That was 1999. No, 2 20 19 when we opened, bro.
And Beer works. But again, I've just come to realize and we'll talk about the latest adventure that they're working on called Piedmont Agrarian Collaborative. The strength of connecting people together in a transparent environment is gonna be, you know, the world's a crazy place and there's not gonna be one person that has all the answers.
So if you bring people together under one goal, one mission in a transparent environment, you'll be a lot more stronger resilient than just one person trying. I mean, it's so complicated today. And so, um, so we did Baroni Beer Works. Um. Just there two nights ago and going to March. So it's phenomenal. We went again living in Alamance County and at grew up about 10 blocks from downtown Burlington.
And I remember when our downtown Burlington had Sears and JC Penney's and Roses and Belks and everything was downtown. Yeah. And through globalization, through things like nafta, through strip shopping centers, I watched our downtown pretty much go away. And so part of the reason behind, you know, company shops.
And, um, bro beer works was go back to the downtown, utilize those great historical buildings and, and build something. And, um, I think the downside with company shops was we were just downtown when there was nothing else there. And grocery stores aren't on your best destination, so, uh, maybe I'll get a shot at that again.
But again, it's just having those values of the connection of community the resources, the values they bring, because again, I keep going back. We live in this global economy and we're not putting that gene in the bottle. But there's a lot of things we're skipping by trying to go global that we can do locally.
And again, our, our latest venture we launched two years ago, it's called P Monitor Collaborative. We're taking a part of our building, which used to make biodiesel, which is basically using waste vegetable, and we produce about a hundred gallons a week. Everybody's moved away from diesel to electric, and so we took that space and we're creating a food hub.
So the unique thing about Piedmont growing collaborative instead of a weekly farmer's market, which the consumer loves, but it's usually tough on the farmer because you do all that work and you go there and you sell $5 worth of tomatoes, not a good use of time. There's another model out there called CSA community supported agriculture, where you make a commitment to the farmer.
Season ahead and you'll get a weekly box of what's coming off his field. Again, doesn't work for a lot of people with travel kids, whatever. So what we're doing here, we've got, I think about a dozen farms now on the platform. So, um, you get a weekly email and said, this is what we have available. We have local grains, local meats, local vegetables, obviously seasonal for the vegetables.
Uh, you order what you want and then you pick up on Friday. And so, and the other thing it does it keeps the money in your community. It's called the multiplier fed. I dunno, you ever heard this one here? Mm-hmm. Is when you go to a big box store and you make a purchase, most of that purchasing dollar quickly leaves the community and leaves the country.
But when you buy locally and that money stays in your local community, then it turns over. So you're basically giving those dollars to the local farmer. Local farmer then basically goes to their local store and it benefits. This is a multiplier effect. So it's a, it's a complicated economic model, but there's a lot of benefits.
Again, I go back to what we said earlier. We're so focused on the price, and again, we need to talk about the price, but we don't talk about the impact that lower price is having.
Well, I mean, I'm with you on that. And having local versus is a lifestyle change now. And it was never that way. Right. I remember going downtown in my hometown and you'd look in the windows at Christmas time and you'd have, uh, the puppets and it was a gathering place. Mm-hmm. Right? And you're seeing kind of a transformation, a lot of the small towns in North Carolina where they're kind of getting back to some things to draw in.
It's a whole lifestyle change that you're trying to change back. I see. I, I, I think that was more beneficial on a lot of different levels. Mm-hmm. But we got big malls, we all kind of gravitated and we, uh, we've, uh, accepted price above everything else. It just sounds like your journey is passionate and I commend you.
It must, but it sounds like it's almost impossible. It's so hard to change people. You know what I'm saying? It is, but I don't wanna sound pessimistic because I, I'm, I, I hope you succeed tremendously because it's a great idea. Well, the, the, the frustrating for thing for me is, you know, just a few years ago we went through COVID and one thing COVID showed us very quickly, global supply chains don't work very well during global disruptions.
And, um, we, interestingly, we actually, we got into the mass business. You know the face mask, everybody did it said, but we went again with our triple bottom line values. How do we utilize resourcing people within our community? So what we did is, um, we worked with a local cut and sew in Ashburn, North Carolina.
We had tons of irregular t-shirts, so we started making masks and our first mask we made sucked. 'cause we knew about making masks, right. But the cool thing about it. Even during the height of COVID, I was getting in my car, I was driving 30 minutes to Asheboro. And so we were having to real time development of the pro, not, not ordering a bazillion mask.
And they come in now, we're making changes every week. And so, um, as we got to the end of it, we had a, a great mask. We did about a thousand a week. I mean, all kinds of cool designs, filter pocket, you know, all this stuff. But again, we were using the resources within our community, and as I tell people, we're interested in making masks for our community, not for the world.
And then the, the other models that were going on, you know, design in America made in wherever is, you know, we went through all these ebbs and flows during COVID. If you remember, there were two times where we thought we were coming out of it, and here comes this other variant. Boom, we're backing it again, right.
You know, we basically could stop and start. Literally, I could be making a thousand masks a week next week if I needed to. Uh, plus if you come to TS nines, I probably got about 50 masks laying around, right? Imagine those companies that, you know, had ships coming in from Asia, uh, all of a sudden the government's gonna start giving away.
Other sudden we got, now we got the vaccine and stuff. Even the hospitals were caught flatfooted with all their, you know, their safety equipment, and they realized that, and, and they were scrambling. Now they've gone back to business as usual. And all that now is quote out lowest price and global market.
But I mean, in my opinion, the global economy's more fragile today than ever. And I mean, you know, a war in one place could shut down, you know, but we just, it's just so amazing that we just totally forgot how vail that, and the same thing with food, um, and medicine. Medicine. Yeah. I, I couldn't believe that during.
And it's still just, it's still an issue. If you have anybody who's watching, who has a child and has got a, you need a simple antibiotic. It was almost impossible to get. Yeah. You had to run all over the city to find it. I felt this is the United States of America. How is this even possible? Yep. That we could be going through this, but this is true on almost every level.
That's what globalization did. Right. Um, I get the sense whether you agree with this administration or not, they're trying to switch that. Now the process in which they're doing it may not be the greatest, but we lost jobs. We lost the ability to manufacture our own medicine. Um, if we had to go to war, what would we, how would we build the, the items necessary to do so?
Right. Um, I'm sorry, I'm venting, but I, I, no, I just feel your passion and it's like, it's so obvious, you know what I'm saying? It's, it should be apparent to everybody that this is what needs to happen, and yet it takes somebody like you to go out there and fight for it. And it is a fight, isn't it? It's, it's a real hard fight now because what our administration is saying.
The impact it's having are completely different. And I'll, let me just, if I can elaborate on that. Sure. Um, let's talk about our, our farmers in this country. Um, and this is something we identified, oh my gosh, you know, back when we started Cotton Carolinas in the late nineties, there's this thing called commodity agriculture.
And when you take, so when you go to the store and you buy your, your, your beef or your chicken or your eggs or your wheat or your, all that stuff. The marketplace is dictating the price of the farmer. I can't imagine having a business where I, I, I do a product for you, and when you come pick it up and say, well, Liz down the road here says you can do it a buck cheaper.
I'm go, okay, I guess that's what I'm gonna charge you. I mean, they have no control. So that's the star of the problem. I've been, I've been railing against that with brands for years because the brands, as some of 'em talk about doing things organically or resilient or whatever they wanna do, make it better.
I says, and they look at the, the cotton farmer as just somebody that supplies their supply chain. No, you need a relationship with the farmer and you need to go to the farmer. And what we do buy directly from, let them have a say so on the price in which they get paid for that cotton, not what the Chicago Mercantile says.
So fast forward to um, I guess what's going on now. And literally a month ago I was in the cotton harvester in Stanley County, North Carolina with our farm. He does, at one time he did 3000. You're down about 1500 acres. I'm now with Andrew Burleson, third generation, mid to late forties, and we were, when his equipment, he said there is nothing that we can grow and make money.
Then I went and got some data from NC State uh, ag School, looking at what the cost grows of cotton cost of cotton's 93 cents a pound. Marketplace is paying 65 cents through the math. Every pound he harvest is lose his money. And actually, I went down to the North Carolina Department of Agriculture to validate these numbers because I don't wanna talk about this stuff.
Me make it up. And they, they agree my numbers. North Carolina, which is typically around the fifth largest growing cotton state in our country. Great grow, great cotton. They will lose almost $80 million this year. 80 millions. And now we talk about this, $12 billion bailout. Some numbers say the cotton. I mean, no, not the co.
The farmers in the US will lose over 40 billion. So. 14, 12. I mean, there's not, so, and again, we're not fixing the problem. We're putting a bandaid on it. Right. And so, um, I mean, I guess the stress of that farmer, because I'm riding around a piece of equipment that's probably well over a million dollars, he's got two of them.
Mm-hmm. And imagine you're harvesting a product that's supposed to be paying for that equipment. You gotta harvest, you gotta get outta the field, but you're losing 30 to 40 cents every pound that's coming outta that field. That's where we, that's where we are today with our, with our cotton farmers. And again, as I said, if we don't, you know, we've 97, 90 8% of our closing made overseas.
We've had a lot of our supply chain either go overseas or go outta business. So as I've told our, um, representatives in Washington. You know, we lose the cotton farmers or we lose the ability to, to make it here and we go to zero. It's very, very difficult to come back. And that's what we're on the point of doing is losing that ability, because I think it's good to say in this room here, closure gonna be with us a few more years.
So why don't we, and again, we're not talking about bringing it all back here, but doesn't it make sense to make a little bit of it here? And it's, but we're at the point of, of losing that ability. Yeah. Once it's gone, it's gone. Exactly. Yeah. I'm not gonna get on the soapbox or anything short term. Sorry. No, no.
I didn't mean to do that. Oh, yeah. Well, um, you know, kind of, I guess looking ahead, let's end on a, on a high note. Yeah. Yeah. What, um, what are some of the things, um. I'm asking this 'cause I've been, I've been to his shop and, you know, what are some of the things that y'all are looking at, innovative things that you're looking at, that you're testing, that you're, um, around t-shirts around dye.
You mentioned hemp. Yeah. Where, where do you see some interesting things in the apparel industry? You know, going maybe locally in North Carolina or. Well, I think North Carolina, um, is one of the best place in the world at the intersection of agriculture apparel, and I still believe that. And I think if we can get to a place that we can understand our full impact of what we're making compared to what's being produced, uh, you know, we talked about robot microplasty.
We walked away that from 10 years ago. So our church are truly 100% natural fibers. Even the sewing thread is cotton. The entry thing is happening, and again, it's human nature. And I talked earlier about, you know, we're making too much apparel, so there's been a lot of interest and investments and focus of what to do to your clothes into life.
Because right now most of that stuff ends up in the landfill or we, you know, palletize it and then ship it to some developing country. We dump it on them. So, and there's some great work made, but let's think about how do we make the product better. Lasts longer, and then when end of life comes make that easier too.
We are about 90% complete on having a T-shirt that is completely printed dyed. Um, that will be 100% recyclable and it could be 100% compostable and biodegradable because that's the problem. Back to the microplastics. You know the challenge we have with apparel, we mix natural fibers with synthetic fibers.
That in itself makes it very difficult to break apart. And, um, so recycling is very difficult, so let's just go and design it better. The other thing that we've been working on a lot since COVID is, you know, we're already looking beyond, you know the fibers. How do we dye the fibers? Most fibers clothes we have on this room here are synthetic dyes.
Uh, synthetic dyes are usually fossil fuel generated. Guess what? They're not made in this country. So we're starting to look at Natural Die. It's a perfect example. Last year we did a project with University of Vermont, looking at black walnuts. You probably all picked up black walnuts. You can get that brown stuff all over your hands and stuff.
Was it a number here? It's million, billions. Excuse me. Billions. I think it's 10 billions, but billions of pounds of black walnuts, which is a North American tree, fall on the ground. We only use about 20 million for food. We've got the resource right there. We can produce brown dye right here in this country.
We do not have to pin on other countries, and we don't have to depend on, uh, the ate. So here's a natural resource. It's literally riding on the ground. And so with working with the, uh, university of Vermont Business School, we mapped out what that business plan is. So when you start looking at, you know, we can grow our own dyes, we can grow our own fibers, we can make our own clothes.
What we need to do is look at the, the total economic and social impact of this different model, because yes, you might say it costs more. Does it really cost more if you've got a disposal problem? Does it really cost more if you're not paying people a living wage? Does it really cost more if you're not properly disposing of your chemicals?
That's the challenge that we live with today, is that we do not have full transparency of the impact we're have, and that's all we want to do. I said earlier, we will compete with anybody in the world, but if you're only gonna look at my price and say, well, hey, this the person down here made it a half price.
We're not gonna win that one. But if we put all our chips on the table, and that's what we have to do as a society, we've got to not blindly move forward and then realize after the fact, kinda like we're doing with ai, we've created a monster and then that now it's too late. And, um, so I just think North Carolina, you know, we're very excited.
We've, um, TS Designs is located on about four and a half acres. We have A-A-U-S-D-U-S-D, a farm number inside the city limits of Burlington. And last year, I think since you came is we've expanded our, um, dye garden dye plant gardens. We got 10 different varieties that we've done doing, done a lot of stuff around marigolds.
We talked about black walnut up. And then we're also looking at Liz. Um, we did an exciting project this year too, looking at waste material. One of our exciting projects, we work with a company outta Amsterdam, and they developed three distinct colors from spent coffee grounds. So now when you go to Starbucks across the street here, you get your espresso.
They take that chunk and they chunk in the plastic bag. That plastic bag goes landfill, which will be there forever and ever and ever. What about if we just intercept that, grab those coffee grinds, do those diets, and then we can take that material? Use that as compost to build. The best thing the farmers need is compost for their soil.
So our models are complicated and that's what turns people off. 'cause it is harder to do, but at the end of the day, the impact is going to be so much greater than the current MA process we're doing today. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So. I might wanna get into this business. Sounds amazingly hard, but, um, what would you say to, to folks who are watching who, you know, feel as you do and maybe they wanna start a business?
Any, any advice? Yeah, I guess again, doing this a long time is, um, I think it's end of the day is relationships is kind of how we connected here. Um, I'm not sure exactly how we connected, but it's, it's. That's my most important job at Ts designs is, is reaching out and connecting and learning and bringing those people into our business.
Um, and what I tell these young people is, your contacts relationship is gonna be your most valuable asset you'll ever have because there's gonna be times 20 years will go down the road and you'll say, oh, I haven't, you know, you'll, you'll pass cross again. And so, that's so important is those relationships, people that you can trust, people that have knowledge, people have insight, and then it gives you a broader base of information to, to make decisions on.
And that's what we're very for. We had our, it was interesting, we did our, um, Christmas lunch last week, and now we only have a staff now, like 10 people. But we have almost probably 20 people at this Christmas lunch because we have some key supporters or contractors that are critical to our business that, you know, they're not there every day, but they're very involved with our business and we're constantly, you know, we have to build relationship beyond just the folks working there, but the people that are either in our supply chains, like, you know, our farmers, but then people that are helping us build this model and giving those those information.
To move forward, you know, to kingdom, to build, because I like, one of my taglines is J, sustainability is a journey, not a destination. Because we're constantly learning. We talked about micro pipes, talk about climate change. We will learn more data, so we gotta be willing to change. That's another thing.
Both business and government get involved. We've always done it that way. Well, that's fine, but now we have knowledge says you need to change the way you're doing business. Okay. Well, I'm sold. I I really am sold. I, I wish you tremendous success. I really do. And it, I think it almost takes a person like you and your personality and your passion initially to get this thing rolling, but I don't know.
I, I, I think as you succeed, others will follow. Well, I'm excited about, there's a um, policy in Congress now, and it's called. Better US Cotton Initiative. I'm, I should know this, but it's, and I'm really gonna get behind it because one thing this will do is give incentive because what backlog said earlier is we grow great cotton in this country, but that cotton is pretty much shipped out this country as fiber.
Mm-hmm. And again, 40,000 miles for T-shirt. So. As I was talking to the folks in Raleigh and hopefully go to Washington soon, is the only way. Yes, we need to change people's behavior, but we also need to change in policy. And what this policy is, and again I don't have my numbers exact here, but the longer that cotton stays in this country, you know, if you take that fiber and you make yarn, you take yarn and make fabric, you take fabric and make, you know, apparel out of it, you get a, a tax credit for that.
And so, uh, that's helping us level play field. 'cause at the end of the day, and as I was telling our representatives is, you know, and making sure as we re rebuild this industry, we're putting people first and making apparel, manufacturing a career and they can get a living wage and not a minimum wage job.
And so, um, with these in, in incentives that has passed, then you're able to give people reason. Short term to keep it here and then we can start rebuilding the industry. 'cause that's another thing we get a lot people says, well, you can't make a million units tomorrow, says you're exactly right. I can't, but if you'll stick with me, we can make a million units in a couple years.
But, you know, everybody wants, and again, that's the, my biggest argument against tariffs, and I've had a lot of conversation about this, is, um, tariffs are immediate tariffs by executive orders that are constantly changing. Just cause market chaos, supply change, take time to build. And what this administration has done with tariffs is just cause market chaos.
And it's part of the reason we're having such a hard time in this small business because I'm sure you're faced with two suppliers change and or countries change and rates change and prices change. And, and even the, the example I like to give is there's a piece of equipment that we were looking under, the Biden administration, they're helping to support it.
To basically continue back that sustainability being a, a journey, it's not made in this country. And so, but we needed this equipment, so we lost the support from the federal government. Okay, I got that. But then we got caught up in all the tar back and forth. So at the end of the day, my wife and I wrote the $10,000 additional tar check that gets this equipment to this country.
'cause we're committed. But again, we, I keep saying we live in this global economy. We're not putting that genie back in the bottle, but, but basically help us develop a pathway to get there. And what we've got right now, again, in my opinion, it's just chaos. Yeah, it takes a, takes a while to turn the Titanic.
Yeah. Yeah, it does. And, and again, I'm all in favor of bringing jobs back here, Liz, but it, it takes planning and time and, and especially apparel. There are a lot of steps from that cotton field, you know, to the T-shirt I got on today, which is actually from, from North Carolina Cotton. Um, but we, it just takes time.
You know, we didn't get here overnight. We're not gonna fix it overnight. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing's so frustrating. I mean, it took years to do what we've done and we just can't snap our fingers in it all gonna come back. It's gonna take time, but we've gotta have, you know, support at the federal level because that's where the buck stops to help us map out that plan.
And again, I'm hoping, and again I cannot think of it, but there is a a thing in Congress now that I'm gonna really get behind next year if we can get this over the finish line. Instead of always just trying to throw a lifeline out to our farm, we can start truly developing pathway to bring apparel manufacturer back here around cotton.
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Eric. This has been really enlightening and I love your passion. Um, and your t-shirt and your shirt looks great man. Yeah, it really does. Well, and thank you so much for the opportunity. Yeah, great to meet you. And I, I appreciate that. And, uh, just always great to connect with other people in our state.
Good. Doing good work. So. Thanks again. Thank you.
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