We'd like to welcome you to the Harvester podcast season 1 episode 2. I am Brian Kenyon, and with me are
Forest Antemesaris:Forest Antemesaris .
Steven Ford:And Steven Ford.
Brian R. Kenyon:And we are here to discuss unity. We began our first podcast last time on the subject of unity. And, in fact, we talked about the seeds of unity, and we spent a lot of time in Ephesians 4 and first Corinthians 1 and also in John chapter 17. And so today, we wanna follow that up with the, seeds of division, like what causes division in, the brotherhood. And so we wanna begin with of course, we were talking a little bit before the podcast and in, first Corinthians chapter 3, of course, if you take a look at first Corinthians, you know, it's very easily outlined by Paul himself and the Holy Spirit.
Brian R. Kenyon:And the first four chapters, he does deal quite extensively with the division. And in first Corinthians chapter 3, beginning in verse 1, I think kinda captures it. And And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as into spiritual people, but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I tell you with, I fed you with milk and not with solid food for until now, you are not able to receive it and even now you are still not able for you are still carnal for where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like men? And so their carnality is the root cause of that division in Corinth.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think you have something I mean, I know we're gonna spend more time in Corinthians, but I think you've got a parallel in in Jude 19. Speaking of those false teachers, he says that they're sensual persons, is what the new King James says. I know other translations will say worldly. They're sensual persons or worldly persons who cause divisions not having the spirit.
Forest Antemesaris:So that lack of spirituality, that worldliness, obviously, Corinth is known for it, famous for it. But anywhere you see, I think, that kinda rife division, you see that there's a lack of spiritual maturity.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. That's a good point even when you go back up to chapter 1. I'm of Paul. I'm of Apollos. I'm of Cephas.
Brian R. Kenyon:And even the ones that say I'm of Christ, I think they have a misunderstanding of what it's all about. But, yes, and you see that a lot of times they'll gravitate toward men. And, of course, it's not always a preacher's fault that that happens as we see here, but it's the carnality of human beings.
Steven Ford:That, carnality seems to come from a lack of maturity with the brethren. That seems to be kind of a theme throughout the book of 1st Corinthians. Having said to them, you know, I had to feed you with milk, you're not ready for meat. Their worldliness, it stymied their ability to grow, which caused them to behave like children. If you think just how kids might act, you know, that's my toy, it's my juice, you know.
Steven Ford:And you when you behave that way, you rob yourself and ultimately the local congregation of its ability to be functional. And I'm thinking of Hebrews chapter 5. Here's the time you're supposed to be mature, supposed to be teaching, supposed to be, helping others to develop as disciples, but because of your lack of maturity, the church can't be all that's supposed to be and the church suffers and then you have division with the the various individuals there who aren't mature, who aren't developed, who aren't being all they should be, and the church ultimately struggles and suffers.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yes. Good point.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think, you know, there's obviously a division that comes from there is a we might call a good division. I know we're not talking about that right now, but there's a good division that comes from spirituality. Right? And there's a reason why the Pharisees weren't on Jesus' side or why the Sadducees weren't on Jesus' side.
Forest Antemesaris:True spirituality is gonna make you separated from some people because of what you believe, the way you live your life, etcetera. But within the church, people who are supposed to be united and are supposed to be on the same team, so to speak, but really brothers and sisters, same family, you see that that lack of spirituality and that really, that worldliness. And I think part of the reason we know it's worldliness too is because if you look at the world, you know, is the world divided? Absolutely. And, like, every in every possible way, you know, almost, and how much, you know, wars, destruction, violence, etcetera, comes from this division, this quarrel, this envy, this strife.
Forest Antemesaris:And then if you look in the church and you see the same thing, that tells you you got a problem. Like, that's a very clear indicator. If you see the world in the church running parallel on something like division, it's like, okay. We've we've gotta do something here.
Steven Ford:The other part about it, the carnality, says me. I'm thinking about what I want, you know, my belly, you know, what makes me happy versus the developed believer should be thinking mission first. It's about Christ bringing him glory. And so if each of us in this room today are thinking about me, of course, we're gonna be divided. But if the focus is the mission, the messiah, then, of course, we can have unity because I'm not thinking about me, you know, we're thinking about Christ.
Steven Ford:And if if the focus is right, it creates unity, which is one of the beautiful things about being a Christian. If you have the right mind, then you will have unity.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yes. Absolutely. And I think that plays into the latter parts of first Corinthians about the misuse of the miraculous gifts, the abuse of the Lord's supper, and all that because of the me focus. And then the me focus seemed to have been kind of coalesced into these different groups. You know, I'm with Paul.
Brian R. Kenyon:I'm with Paul, etcetera. But it all goes back to worldliness, which is a crucial point of division. And to to speak to Forrest's point about the world, yeah, it's terrible when the church seems to be as divisive as the world. Yeah. Now it might be different subjects like Trump versus Biden or, you know, whatever it might be, but it's still that same division, that same carnality as the root cause of it.
Brian R. Kenyon:So that's that's there before us. But what would be be some other root causes of division?
Steven Ford:Well, if we just kinda stay in first Corinthians just for a moment, the very next chapter, Paul would use the phrase puffed up in the old King James several times.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah.
Steven Ford:And when the idea is I see myself as a big I and a little u, then that will cause some division also is I'm creating it with the way that I'm viewing my brothers or my sisters for that matter. So arrogance, pride, being a root cause of division, and is in many, many cases today.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think you see that too in Ephesians 4 where we were last episode where, you know, we talked about the preface of unity. Is that loneliness of mind and that, you know, that that kindness and all that. So if you take that loneliness of mind out, the result is gonna be division, and you've got, you know, brethren, unfortunately, who, for whatever reason kinda see themselves almost as like like a pope or something. Right?
Forest Antemesaris:And they get to set the doctrine for everybody else. And if you go against it, we're gonna hunt you down and we're gonna whatever. Right? So that idea now, I'm not I'm not trying to impugn that that's necessarily a lack of humility, but if I set myself up as the arbiter of soundness, we have to I think we gotta take a step back and say, okay. Can I personally, individually as one person, be the person that draws that line?
Forest Antemesaris:Right? And, and we've seen brethren again, groups, etcetera, that kinda just that circle of fellowship gets smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller. You know, there's one guy, Bob Bauer always says this, where you get to a point where the only people are sound are you and your wife and you're not so sure about her. Mhmm. You know what I mean?
Forest Antemesaris:So just that idea of, I get to set the standard and I get to set what's right and what's wrong. From my, you know, in my view, I think a lot of that comes from as soon as we get away from Jesus being the one that sets right and wrong and the Bible being the one that sets right and wrong and recognizing that was room for opinions, you know, a lot of times we're wavering into a lack of humility, I think.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. And that's a good point. And and the other side of that coin is just as true. I was thinking in first Corinthians 5, the passage that Steven alluded to just a moment ago, and this is where the man is caught, you know, well, what he has is father's wife, but not well, verse 1 is actually reported that there are sexual immorality or fornication among you and such as not even named among the Gentiles that a man would have his father's wife. But verse 2, first Corinthians 52, and you are puffed up, arrogant, and have not rather mourned that he who has done this thing, might be taken away from among you.
Brian R. Kenyon:And so here's, you know, Forrest was talking about, and that's a point we're gonna talk about more so in a moment. But there are people that try to set up, you know, we're the standard of authority, and we're like the truth clearing house. You gotta come through us or else
Forest Antemesaris:you're not
Brian R. Kenyon:gonna have it. But then the other side, like here, I think is like, they're the same arrogance, but it allows anything. Anything goes,
Steven Ford:which is
Brian R. Kenyon:the opposite side of what, Forrest was talking about. But there's still division
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Brian R. Kenyon:And it's still wrong.
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Brian R. Kenyon:And it still disrupts the brotherhood, and it still puts us like the world. Right.
Forest Antemesaris:And the root's kinda the same. Right? Because I'm the guy, I say anything goes. Right? Or because I say I'm the guy, no.
Forest Antemesaris:You can't do that. Right? So both are the same. It's kind of the same at the heart of it. Mhmm.
Steven Ford:That's one of the neat things about this section here. You have puffed up on either side. You can be puffed up and saying, here are the hard borders, you cannot take a step further, or you're gonna have the arrogance where you're saying, well, you can kinda do whatever you want. Either way, you're setting yourself up as the one who gets to determine right and wrong.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think he's I think this is where, you know, I think a parallel here in 3rd John 9 and 10 where you have diatrophies, or of course, John names that guy by name, but this idea and if you read there in 3rd John 9 and 10, chapter 1, of course, where you know, just this idea that he does not accept the true authority of the apostles of John and pretty much sets up his own, right? And those who are with John and those who bear the apostolic seal, in fact, are the same ones that he's rejecting and denying. So, you know, whether that's whether that's the way diatrophies would describe it, what he's doing is saying, hey. I actually have more authority than the apostle John.
Forest Antemesaris:I actually have more authority than Jesus Christ. And, and he gets to pick who's in and out of the church and he gets to pick, you know, what we're gonna listen to, what we're not gonna listen to, etcetera. And, but really at the result of that, and we, you know, we could do a whole series on diatrophies, but, you know, the whole the whole root of that is again, that ego, that pride being puffed up and saying, hey, I'm not gonna submit to so and so. I'm not gonna I wanna be the person who is the arbiter of right or wrong.
Brian R. Kenyon:Mhmm. Very good. So we have worldliness as a root cause of division. We have pride and arrogance. What's a third root cause of division?
Brian R. Kenyon:And these are a no particular order
Forest Antemesaris:by the way. Yeah. But we'll let Steve keep going with his, expository sermon here of the book of 1st Corinthians.
Steven Ford:It's it's kinda neat because we're studying through 1st Corinthians in our Sunday morning class, so it's kinda just fresh in front of mind for me. But another root cause in my opinion is the lack of love for our brethren, lack of love for the lord, and as pointed out in first Corinthians chapters 12 and 13, which you kinda hinted at earlier, brother Brian, I believe, when we kinda start to see our role more prominently than our brothers, for whatever reason, Maybe ours is more visible, maybe ours may seem more important for time's sake. For for example, it can be a big deal with preachers because we're the ones who get to stand in the in the pulpit. We get the microphone for the most amount of time so it can seem as though, you know, we are in charge, you know, and then it's even a worldly concept. The pastor runs the show.
Steven Ford:Right. And so for many cases, it can be just like in chapter 12 where we see our part of the body as more essential than the person who, you know, sweeps up after worship,
Forest Antemesaris:the one
Steven Ford:who, you know, turns off the lights after worship and those sorts of things. So, instead of loving our brothers, we look down on them. So I think that's a a big big issue within, congregations and the world anyway.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. And I do find myself quite often more more than I realize until I start listening or writing down things, but I often especially the last 4 or 5 years, seems like I'm often referring back to 1st Corinthians 12 about where he talks about every part of the body is just as important as the other part. Absolutely.
Steven Ford:And I
Brian R. Kenyon:think I'm not so much doing it for my sake, but for the people in the congregation because a lot of people have that low self esteem or whatever and their and their value in the Lord's kingdom because maybe they're not a public speaker, maybe they're not a good one on one Bible study, or maybe they're not a song leader.
Forest Antemesaris:Mhmm.
Brian R. Kenyon:But as Paul points out in that chapter, every single person is valuable to the to the body, and the body cannot function to its full potential without each of those parts of the
Forest Antemesaris:body. Right. Right. And I think too I mean, there's a there's a multitude of reasons why people fall away, but this this kind of a tangent, but sometimes people stop worshiping God and disassociate themselves from the body of Christ because they never get involved. Right?
Brian R. Kenyon:Right.
Forest Antemesaris:And part of the reason they never get involved is because they feel like there's nothing for them to do because they don't, you know, they're not a preacher or they're not a teacher or they can't watch the kids or whatever, you know, whatever. And each congregation is different, but people, I think, eventually, especially immature Christians, if you give them a job and you give them a reason to show up other than what should, you know, just worship God, serve Jesus, etcetera, You know, the and we've we've got no data on this, but I have to imagine the rate of those people staying faithful is a lot higher. Right? Because they've got buy in. They're like, okay.
Forest Antemesaris:I am valued. I do have a job to do, etcetera, etcetera. But the love with the division I think love, you know, really starts in 1st Corinthians 8 where he talks about knowledge puffs up, love builds up. And that idea of a lot of the Corinthians problems, both with, you know, the war over the spiritual gifts and eating meat sacrificed, diet, all that stuff, He kinda sees that as a solution to a lot of their problems is that love for one another. And, of course, 1st Corinthians 13 extrapolates what that love looks like and what that love is, but, how many of our problems, us, you know, the church in America in 2024 would be solved if we had that Christ like love for each other?
Steven Ford:Seems like it's in the book somewhere, that that's one of the greatest things we could do, you know. We love the Lord and love for each other. But just to add some real world data to what you just said, a few months ago, we wrote some letters to members who were not assembling anymore. Right. And, in the letter, it referenced, you know, the body is not complete when you're not here, in essence.
Steven Ford:And we looked at Ephesians, 4 sided some passages in there, and informed the member that though they may not have been, you know, doing whatever job that the local body was lanking because they weren't there. Well, there was a couple who received that letter, understood their true value, and every single time the doors are open, they are here now.
Forest Antemesaris:Wow. That's right.
Steven Ford:Because they were just informed that you matter. Right. And, they don't they don't have any kind of prominent role at all. They you know, you don't see them necessarily upfront doing anything at all
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Steven Ford:Other than being a part of the body. And when they're here, there's a you can you can feel the encouragement that they bring to the other members because they were gone for a long time. They, you know, had an ebb and flow sort of relationship over the years, but now they're back. And every time, it's just a breath of fresh air to see that they understand that they're important.
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Steven Ford:The other members understand that they're important. And so we kinda see each other and know, hey. Your being here means that you overcame a hurdle and that you still gotten here. So now that the body can be complete, whether we're taking the Lord's supper together, whether we're sitting together, praying together, whatever. Now the body is more complete because the local body anyway, because you're present and you're here.
Forest Antemesaris:For sure. Yeah. It's a great point. And, you know, I think love love's obviously the glue, I think, of the body of Christ, but also, like, of a lot of things. Like, imagine if, you know, you got married and you're like, okay.
Forest Antemesaris:Our first disagreement, we have to get a divorce. How long would that marriage last? Right? Maybe, like, 2 days. You know?
Forest Antemesaris:So but people do that in the body of Christ, where it's like, yeah. We're brothers and sisters. Yeah. We're supposed to love each other. But the first time we've got a big disagreement, you go start your congregation over there and we'll stay or whatever it is, and we get a divorce.
Forest Antemesaris:And it's like, wait a second. That's not that's not how a body works. Right? If my arm and my leg have a disagreement, they don't they don't get torn off and thrown on the other bodies. It's not that's not the way it's supposed to be.
Brian R. Kenyon:In fact, it's just the opposite. Your other parts of the body will help that part that's sore and that's damaged and
Forest Antemesaris:make up for whatever is lacking. For
Brian R. Kenyon:whatever it takes to get the job done and then, go from there. And it's like, you know, just like a regular human body, it can function without an arm, without a leg, you know, but not to its full potential. And so the spiritual body I mean, there's plenty of local churches that are doing decent without an arm, without a leg, but it's the the whole body is needed. And the the more we have the body functioning together, the more influence, the more impact we can have on the community and upon the world.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. Absolutely.
Steven Ford:I just want to add that division can also take place even if we don't separate physically. So if we don't go start another congregation, there can be division where we cold shoulder each other.
Forest Antemesaris:That's a good point.
Steven Ford:We don't share. And and I'm when you mentioned a marriage, it made me think about how many couples still exist in the same house, but they are very much divorced in practice.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah.
Steven Ford:And so even within churches, there may be a person who if you do something to me, instead of me coming to you say, hey, Forrest, let's talk this out. I don't say anything. I'm just gonna cold shoulder you. Yeah. And I'm not gonna include you, or I'm gonna go and tell Brian about you.
Steven Ford:And we're gonna talk and I'm I'm thinking of, Galatians chapter 2 in particular now where, you know, these people come from with James and now Peter's cold shouldering, the Gentiles instead of sitting with them. And so instead of just saying, hey. I'm gonna go start in a whole other congregation over here. It's well, I'm just not gonna sit with them anymore. Right.
Steven Ford:And so I think that happens also, and I've seen it happen within congregations where, you know, we don't talk to this group over any well, why don't you guys, you know, it's a long story, you know.
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Steven Ford:Oh, I thought we were a family.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. This is
Steven Ford:my brother and my sister. Why do I not go across the aisle to say hello, or why don't I talk to your kids anymore? You don't mind and and that sort of thing. So that kind of shoulder, is another aspect of division even though we don't necessarily leave the building, but we still are very much, you know, divided from each other in fellowship.
Forest Antemesaris:That's a great point. Yeah.
Brian R. Kenyon:I think you can see that in the world too, whether some of the politics or anything like that that people will be in the same work in the same office maybe or whatever, but just not have anything to do with each other. Yeah. Maybe a high in the break room or goodbye to time clock or whatever. And so, yeah, that's a very good point. And that's a illustration when the church becomes like the world, and that's a bad thing.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. That cold shoulder or even I think and I think you really hit onto something, and I don't know if this would be one of our points or not. But I think a fear of awkward conversations leads to division too. You know? Because rather than kinda following Jesus' protocol for conflict resolution, if you wanna call it that, you know, in Matthew 18 or some of those passages, like you said, instead of just approaching that and broaching that topic with that person and letting them know, hey.
Forest Antemesaris:You sinned against me or whatever it is, we just ignore them or we gossip about them on their back or whatever. And then also too, you know, in these these movements that have started within our brotherhood where you kinda have this ever shrinking circle of soundness, you know, and we see people be bullies and nobody says anything. I think that's the same thing because, you know, not even I'm not even talking about, you know, there's a brother in New Hampshire and I see him on social media and I'm in Florida and I send him a message. Maybe that could be it. But I mean, even in those congregations, right, where you've got one elder maybe who's taken over the whole thing and the other 4 elders never say anything.
Forest Antemesaris:And it's like, well, why not? Why why why you know, we are by doing nothing sometimes, we are an impediment to unity because we're afraid to have those awkward conversations or afraid to kinda really just face those things head on.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. And the the fear of the awkward conversation, there's usually something behind that because it's either a doctoral thing or maybe we're we don't know exactly the truth. And so a lot of times, if we don't know, what matters optional, what matters are not, then we kind of shy away from it Yeah. And just stick with what we're comfortable with all these years.
Forest Antemesaris:Or if that person's influential, you don't wanna be on the wrong side of them, you know what I mean? Something like that. Wow.
Steven Ford:Yeah. Just we can I would love to parse that topic out of the whole podcast because there's there's both sides of it? So it could be me not not wanting to approach because I'm maybe ill informed on the topic. Maybe I feel shy. Maybe I don't have the courage or whatever reason.
Steven Ford:But then there may the other side of the coin where I don't want to approach you because you have a bad attitude. Right. You'll bite my head off or you'll, you know, turn everyone against me.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah.
Steven Ford:So there's, you know, both sides. The one that needs to do the talking and the one that needs to receive, you know, the correction if that'd be the case. But, you know, both things could be a hindrance to kinda figuring out what the real issue is.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think too, you know, we've and I don't wanna I don't wanna paint with too broad of a brush, but a lot of congregations, a lot of Christians have stopped. I would say 1, church discipline by and large and also 2, I mean, it's and I don't I wanna be charitable. Sometimes it's happening and we don't see it. I'm certainly willing to admit that, but I think many Christians don't follow kind of the Matthew 18 protocol when those things come up.
Forest Antemesaris:You know?
Brian R. Kenyon:Right.
Forest Antemesaris:And I think you create a situation where if you don't do that in the little things, it becomes impossible to do it with the big things. Right? It's like, it's like maybe disciplining a child where I've let him I say no and I let him do it anyway. Oh, but it's a small thing. Right?
Forest Antemesaris:Hey. Don't pick that up. He does it. I don't do anything. Hey.
Forest Antemesaris:Don't pick that up. He does it. I don't do anything. And now when he's about to run-in the street and I say no, he's like, your no means nothing. Right?
Forest Antemesaris:Because all these little things you let me do. And so I think part of that is just preventing that, working against that is we've gotta be consistent with that kind of stuff where out of love, again, going back to our the the last, I think, major point we had, you know, out of love, we are willing to broach those subjects. We are willing to, have those conversations not because we want to punish the other person, but because we wanna be truly united and not the cold shoulder avoiding kind of stuff. You know?
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. Very good. Okay. So we have wordless, pride, lack of love, and then fear of awkward conversations. We went ahead and made that a
Forest Antemesaris:Okay. Cool. Cool. Point. Make that a major point.
Forest Antemesaris:Alright. Alright.
Brian R. Kenyon:And so what about a 5th one? What's another reason? Common root of division.
Forest Antemesaris:1 I had I don't know. Somebody else could jump in too. But one I had was, binding the traditions of men, you know. And I think both in congregations and in our brotherhood, but also if you just look at, you know, air quote Christendom, why is there the division that is there? Really, it's we're bind you know, different people are binding doctrines of men.
Forest Antemesaris:And you say, well, you know, you've got it's like the classic, who was at Barton Stone, who was gonna be, you know, restoration history, Barton Stone, who was gonna be, you know, be put up for for ministry
Brian R. Kenyon:Mhmm.
Forest Antemesaris:And he had to was it affirm? Was it the Westminster Confession of Faith or something like that?
Brian R. Kenyon:Something like that.
Forest Antemesaris:So they've you know, so a lot of groups do this. We've made a dividing line over a document that was written by a man. Right? We've made a dividing line over something that and that's just a minor example perhaps, but I think it happens all the time and you see it in churches where and I think all these things work together. Right?
Forest Antemesaris:The ego, the pride, the lack of humility, the lack of love, I think sometimes a lot of times leads to the binding of the doctrines of men. But once I get or somebody gets kind of a spur in their side about something and say, hey. This is the way we have to do this. And it's not from the Bible. It's from grandpa or it's from my own brain or it's from some smart theologian, You know?
Forest Antemesaris:And, that by consequence creates division because you're saying everybody who doesn't agree with this, we we're no longer together. So, I mean, that that literally just creates a dividing wall that ought not to be there.
Brian R. Kenyon:You're absolutely right. And part of it part of that is not realizing, you know, optional matters versus obligatory matters versus prohibitions. And so sometimes when we think something's optional, but yet tradition and, you know, binding doctrines, man, they don't makes it, you know, where we're where we're binding what God has loosed.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah.
Brian R. Kenyon:And we don't wanna lose what God is bound either, but any one of those will cause division because it's going back to some standard besides what the Bible teaches.
Forest Antemesaris:Yeah. And I think there's, like, there's a constant I think there is a constant there's a constant battle against that, right, I think in each generation and each congregation because sometimes it's easier to bind a doctrine of man than it is to actually
Brian R. Kenyon:Study something out and come to a scriptural conclusion.
Forest Antemesaris:It's way easier for me to say, hey. This is the way we've always done this, rather than roll up my sleeves and get into the word and actually try to apply myself. You know?
Steven Ford:I think that's what Paul was exactly getting at in first Corinthians chapter 1. Because if you start to follow too hard behind a person, then whatever they say will seem like law to you. And I think I don't think all of it comes out of, a wicked heart. I think that in many cases, like with the Pharisees in some cases, it comes out of our heart seeking to do what is right and desiring to do what is right. But instead of saying, I'm gonna just stick with the book.
Steven Ford:If you are right on items 1, 2, and 3, biblically, then I'm gonna just assume that you could be off on 4, 5, and 6. But, you know, I'm gonna just go with because you've been right in other places. And instead, I need to be saying, well, I hear what you said, but what's the book say?
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Steven Ford:And so I think that was Paul's point in, you know, first Corinthians trying to get them back. Hey. These guys are it's fine to say, hey. Here's my teacher. But, you know, what does God say?
Steven Ford:Yeah. No matter what. And I think, in my opinion, at least, I think is born in many cases. Some case, maybe not, but in many cases, probably from somewhere good and designed to do what's good and just going too far beyond the point.
Forest Antemesaris:Well, I think the Pharisees are a good example. Right? Because it's like, hey. We've got the command from God. Now let's build a hedge around the command from God so that we make sure we don't get close to disobeying the command from god.
Forest Antemesaris:Right? So god said, here's the rules for the Sabbath. Let's just take that and just multiply it a little bit so that we know we won't even get close to breaking the rules for the Sabbath.
Brian R. Kenyon:Have cushion.
Forest Antemesaris:Right. Exactly. And then when you see Jesus picking some grain, you're like, woah. Wait a second. What do you think you're doing?
Forest Antemesaris:You're disobeying God. And Jesus I'm not disobeying God. I'm disobeying you all. Right? And those those two aren't the same.
Forest Antemesaris:So and over time, I said over generations, that's when you kinda get, hey. We've got this command from God. Yeah. But you've got the hedge around the command that we also bind. So to and like you said, it comes from a good place.
Forest Antemesaris:Right. But then now where we should be united, we're divided because you broke the hedge. You didn't break God's word, but you broke the hedge that I set up, and now there's a problem. Mhmm.
Steven Ford:The personal hedge isn't necessarily an issue either if you wanna set it for yourself. Right. You know, say, hey. I I wanna honor God, so I don't wanna do x. Right.
Steven Ford:But to say, well, now you can't do x either. And Exactly. You can't do x or y, you know, then we start to have the problem. But to set it for yourself, to keep yourself, under, subjection to the word of God isn't necessarily issue more than the binding of it, I guess, what we're
Forest Antemesaris:That's a great point. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that's a Romans 14 thing there, which probably Right. I don't know if that's a major point or if that's an its own episode, you know, but how much of our division is a lack of understanding Romans 14?
Brian R. Kenyon:Yeah. And that that that word scruples, I did a study on that a while back on Romans 14, and I think some of the translations have scruples there.
Forest Antemesaris:Mhmm.
Brian R. Kenyon:In chapter Romans 14 1 and 2, doubtful disputations, I think the King James has, but scruples. And that that that's things that I personally don't like or I personally but, again, what I what I personally prefer or don't prefer
Forest Antemesaris:Right.
Brian R. Kenyon:Is like that hedge that's not really the commandment of God. And so we have to make sure we stick to the book.
Forest Antemesaris:And when you bring the conscience in, so, you know, you have to realize there might be something that is a sin for you
Brian R. Kenyon:Yes.
Forest Antemesaris:That you can't say is a sin for me. Right? Exactly. And I think that is something that, unfortunately, makes some people uncomfortable where, you know, if it's not something I would do, it has to be something you shouldn't do.
Brian R. Kenyon:Yes.
Forest Antemesaris:And that's not necessarily the case.
Brian R. Kenyon:Right. Trying to bind our conscience on somebody else. Right. And even along those same lines, we'll get into this the next episode when we talk about restoring unity. But because somebody's conscience is not like mine, doesn't mean I have to shun them or I should, you know, move to the other side of the church building and not have anything to do with them.
Brian R. Kenyon:But too many times, we treat someone like that because their conscience won't allow or will allow them to do something my conscience won't. Yeah. You must be wrong, and so I gotta stay away from you unless you insult me or something.
Forest Antemesaris:For sure. And it does go both ways
Brian R. Kenyon:Mhmm.
Forest Antemesaris:Because I've seen it go the other way too where, oh, that person's conscience won't allow them to do that thing. You know, let's mark the conservative and stay away from them lest, you know, we offend his Puritan, whatever. You know? And it's like because that that street flows both ways a lot of times.
Brian R. Kenyon:So we have worldliness as a root cause of division, pride as an arrogance as a root cause of division, lack of love, fear of the awkward conversations, and binding doctrines of men as if they were from God. And so that's about much time as we have. There are probably some more that we could think of, but we'll have to bring those up later. But we do appreciate your listening in to us, and we're going to, close this session out and meet us again on the next episode where we will talk about the, restoring, restoration of unity.