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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
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This is Fish Stark, Executive Director of the American Humanist Association. I'm getting married this summer, and we could not be more excited, but weddings can be a lot. On top of dealing with caterers and photographers, it just feels challenging to plan a ceremony that both honors our humanist beliefs and my fiancee's Jewish culture and traditions.
There is no script for something like that. That's why my fiancee and I are getting help from a humanist celebrant, our friend Greg Epstein, who also happened to be the first-ever guest on this podcast. If you're preparing to celebrate your own love story but you're not excited about a traditional religious celebration, you should consider working with a humanist celebrant like Greg.
The Humanist Society can connect you with professional humanist celebrants who are excited to help you and your partner craft a ceremony that reflects your unique story, background, and values. Humanist celebrants are frequently sought out for interfaith, intercultural, and same-sex marriages, but they are available to everyone, and they can legally perform marriages in all 50 states.
If you wanna explore what it means to invite a humanist celebrant into your wedding, visit thehumanistsociety.org. We've got people who can help.
SHAY:
Happy How to Humanist Day. It is Shay Leonia, and I am your host, and I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm glad that I'm here because I am officially back home in Philadelphia from my first ever trip to Seattle. I lived my little Frasier, Sleepless in Seattle, coffee enthusiast, and '90s grunge rock heart out.
I had the time of my life, and I can't wait to go back. I was climbing on the troll in Fremont, the gum wall. Nope, did not contribute a piece to that. I was trying not to touch anything. Kurt Cobain's memorial bench. Got to try a different coffee shop every single day. I went to the Space Needle. Yeah, I feel like I did all of the things, but more importantly, it was my birthday, so you know I went and got a massage and I got my nails done. The pampering had to happen. It was lovely. It was really, really nice, and I really can't wait to go back, so thank you, Seattle.
Also, oh my gosh, the record stores there, ugh, awesome, awesome record stores. And great vegan food too. Really, really good vegan food.
So now that I'm back, it appears that we are on our 22nd episode, which I cannot believe. We only just dropped this podcast the last week of February, so the fact that we're already on 22 episodes is blowing my mind.
But also, please, please, we are still a budding brand-new podcast. If you have a moment, it would help us tremendously if you would leave a review, particularly on Apple Podcasts. It matters a lot in the podcast space, especially for a brand-new podcast like ours.
Today's guest was literally, I told her this on the podcast, you're gonna hear me say it, she was my shoot-your-shot email. Like, I never in a million years thought that I was gonna hear back from her, let alone book her on the podcast, but it just speaks to how gracious she is.
Franchesca Ramsey, I have been a huge fan of hers for what, gosh, it must be like 15 years or more now. I'm just a massive fan of hers. You might know her from any of her viral sensations. Franchesca's been on Superstore and other TV shows that you might have watched her in. She has been a writer for award shows like Black Girls Rock. She had a video go viral in 2012 of things white girls say. But now she pretty frequently goes viral for her Leopards Ate My Face song. So again, you've probably run across Franchesca at one point or another, especially if you use social media.
So this episode was really unique for me because Franchesca, I can't recall ever seeing her share online what her religious practices are or her spirituality. But the fact that she is such a multi-hyphenate, I wanted it to go to show that you are able to be this fully rounded, fully developed person. And just because you're a humanist, it doesn't mean that you have to just make nice-nice all the time, because I feel like that gets projected onto us a lot, and that's just not the case.
And then we also talked about so many other things in this episode. We definitely had our full-on millennial moments. So definitely if you are a millennial, enjoy. If you're not, I'm so sorry, not. Anyway, all right. Let me stop keeping you from this episode.
SHAY:
You're gonna have to give me a bit to calm down. I just spent the last five minutes trying to regulate.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh my God, you're so sweet.
SHAY:
I have been a fan of yours since Chesca Locks. And I like, I can't even believe that it's been so long.
FRANCHESCA:
I know. It's been a long time.
SHAY:
I've... You're here. I can't believe...
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
SHAY:
You were my shoot-your-shot email. Like, you're the Tracee Ellis Ross interview for me.
FRANCHESCA:
That's really sweet.
SHAY:
I was just doing a whole glance over your tremendous career that you've already been having so far.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
I have to tell you, I never anticipated that when I finally would get to speak to you, that it would be off of a shoot-your-shot email, and that you would hit me back not only being super gracious, but also being like, "Sorry for the delay."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. I try to be better. I just haven't had an assistant in a minute, and so I've been managing my own emails, and that just... It's really hard. There are too many emails. And so I always wanna be conscientious of people's time, but I love that you gave me an option to fill out the thing. And I was like, "Great, this makes my life easier." As long as it's on the calendar, it'll happen.
SHAY:
Well, I mean, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know what to say to her in response." So I was like, once she sees how much this means to me on the podcast, hopefully she'll understand why I'm not replying to her via email.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, no. Thank you. I could not find words to be like, "Wait, wait, wait. You're actually here now, so thank you so much."
FRANCHESCA:
Aw, you're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
SHAY:
You are somebody that I wanted to bring on the show because from all of the things of you that I do know that you share online, I am not aware of what your spiritual or religious beliefs are.
FRANCHESCA:
Mm. Yeah.
SHAY:
What I really truly admire about you, and that I felt like our listeners could learn from, is that humanists, we get this rep like we're out handing out flowers to MAGA, and we're not those types of people. Like, we don't shit sunshine and roses.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
And one thing that I really feel like I want people to gather from you today is that you have managed to be like the quintessential multi-hyphenate person who is still giving this sense of, not in a way that you haven't figured it out, but in a way that you are still growing before our eyes, and you are just sharing this ever-evolving version of yourself. And I really just wanted our listeners, forbid anyone who doesn't already know about you and your wonderfulness, to get a chance to experience you.
FRANCHESCA:
That's really sweet of you to say. Thank you. That's a huge compliment. I definitely think that's what I try to share in my content, that I'm a real person, that I'm evolving.
And I've been in the content creator space, in the video space, for two decades. But before that I was like a blogger and I had a LiveJournal, and I was very active there. So I have a very long documented internet history, and so you can see that I've grown and I've changed. And I'm very much of the mind that there's nothing wrong with that. That is human nature, and I'm more frustrated by people who are like, "I am who I am, and I'm never gonna change, and this is me." It's like, well, I don't think that that's realistic. It's a good thing to change. There's nothing wrong with saying like, "Oh, I have new information now. I think about this thing differently," or, "My perspective has changed because of an experience that I had or someone that I encountered." I think that's a real sign of strength, and so I just try to model that in my content.
SHAY:
That's interesting to hear you say because you also hold people's feet to the fire and hold people accountable, because one of the things that you've become known for is the Leopards Ate My Face...
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
Even in Spanish now. Yes.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
So where does that balance lie in letting people fuck up, but also being like, "No, do better"?
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think the Leopard song... So for people that don't know, it's based on a 2015 viral meme by this writer by the name of Adrian Bott that says, "'I never thought the leopards would eat my face,' screamed the woman who voted for the Face Eating Leopards party." And it's really become a meme that's most recently synonymous with the Trump administration, but also used to talk about Brexit voters, for example. And this idea that you cannot divorce yourself from the consequences of your own actions.
And so I am of the mind that we have to be honest about when you mess up. I think it's in German, it's schadenfreude, the idea that sometimes you can feel a little bit of, not only relief, but like pleasure from the fact of, okay, when the world is so terrible and so many of us are having to deal with the consequences of other people's actions, other people's vote, when those people feel the consequences too, there is a little feeling of like, good, I'm glad. I'm glad that you're feeling it too. Like, welcome to the party.
So to answer your question about giving people space to fuck up, I'm of the mind that even with a silly song like The Leopards Ate My Face, which I try to reserve for public figures and people who have been loudly and proudly gleeful about other people's rights being taken away or other people feeling the consequences of their vote, versus, you know, everybody has genuine mistakes, and I think a mistake is very different from a deliberate choice.
And I think especially for people who are continuously making certain choices and only care when they're facing the consequences of their own actions, I personally don't have a lot of sympathy for them. But I do think the people that they're in community with have more of an opportunity to educate them and change their perspective than myself, a stranger on the internet, ever does.
And I think that's where the work actually has to happen, with people that, whether it be members of your family or people that you work with or the person that you're dating or married to, there are conversations that need to be had within those circles that aren't being had.
And unfortunately, the responsibility seems to continuously fall on Black people, on queer people, on marginalized folks. It's like, "Well, why won't you teach me how to respect your pronouns?" It's like, why are you making that somebody else's job? We have a whole computer in your pocket. If you wanna do that work, you can. But if you want to dig into those more vulnerable conversations and do that real uncomfortable work, it has to happen with people that you really trust, and you need to spend some money and go to a class. You need to go to the library and check out a book. You need to get a podcast. At some point we have to take responsibility for our own education.
And so I just think there's a delicate balance there, and I try to balance that myself by not singing the Leopard song every day. Like, if it was up to my audience, they would love that. But I try to balance it. I talk about other things. I'm not like the face of my content all the time. I've been exploring some different formats, which has been really fun.
SHAY:
Those mashups have been brilliant.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, thank you. Yeah. They've been really, really fun. And honestly, a big part of the mashups has come from the fact that as a Black woman, as a queer Black woman, there are times where I will say something and just because it's coming from me, people won't receive it. And I'll see somebody else say the exact same thing that I said, and the comments are like, "Yes, queen." I'm like, that's interesting. I've definitely said that before.
You know, as long as you're receiving the message, I don't necessarily need credit. But that's why these super cut mashups have been so fun, because I can tell a story without me being there, and it's kind of up to you. Like, I know what I want the message to be, but your job is to receive it and decipher it.
And so people will say, like, "You're demonizing Kylie Jenner by this mashup about her Meta glasses," and I'm like, I actually have not demonized her by showing you things she's said. If you feel she's being demonized, that's your interpretation. But this is just highlighting the discrepancies behind how she talks about privacy and then the product that she's endorsing and putting her name on and how it's being used.
And so I feel like there's a really cool thing happening where I'm slowly but surely forcing people to understand media literacy. I mean, it's an uphill battle, but it's been a really fun challenge, and I'm so excited that they're resonating with people.
SHAY:
Extremely effective because when you're watching it, it's so tightly edited, which is of course just your signature, just doing things well. And then I'll look down and be like, "Oh, that's a Franchesca video."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. Of course, yeah. It's really cool. I've had some of my own followers be like, "Man, whoever edited this is a genius," and I'm like, "I edited it. Like, where did you think this came from?"
SHAY:
Yeah. It's absolutely brilliant. But what you're saying is so infuriating and heartbreaking, to know that your voice is not being taken at face value when you're saying these things. Because like, you were such a prevalent voice on Decoded. Were you the sole writer?
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, so I actually developed and sold that show to MTV. I developed it with a production company called Cornebrier Brown based out of New York. They had previously had a show called Braless that was about feminism in pop culture that had done really well. And so MTV came to me. I had pitched them a television show that they ended up not buying, and then they came to me and they were like, "Hey, would you wanna develop something similar to Braless but about race?" And so they connected me with the same production company.
And I wanna say we spent about three or four months developing, which is kind of a short development cycle, but then it took almost a year for the deal to close, meaning like MTV to kind of hammer out who owns what.
And so for the first season I think I was the only writer, and then I started working at The Nightly Show, and so I was a staff writer and on camera there five days a week, and I just couldn't do that and Decoded at the same time. So we started bringing on additional writers, and it was awesome 'cause I got to hire my friends or I got to hire people from Twitter. Like, I would slide in people's DMs and I'd be like, "Hey, I saw this thread that you made. You wanna make a video out of this and I'll pay you?" So that was really cool. I got to work with some really awesome writers that way.
And then every once in a while I would take ownership of something or ultimately just do a pass. Like, someone would write the first draft and then I would go through and do a punch up.
SHAY:
The things that you were saying back then, I can't recall what year it was, so please refresh my memory.
FRANCHESCA:
2015 was the first season, and we ended the show in 2020.
SHAY:
So and then the civil uprising happened.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
Yeah. And suddenly all these white people had their reckoning.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, I mean, that's what... I mean, look, you said it, not me. But that's how I felt at times. And even now, like, it's such a, the internet is such a different place. I see so many creators talking about social issues and identity, and it's awesome. I'm so glad. But I'm like, wow, in 2015 when I was making this content, there was like a huge anti-feminist movement, and they called themselves like anti-social justice warriors. There were these people that would just make hours worth of content saying that I hated men, I hated white people, and you know, all these horrible things.
To me, nothing that I was saying was super revolutionary. Like, I was proud of what I was doing, but I was literally like, "Hey, don't kill Black people." And then they were like, "Ah." Yeah. "How dare she say that?" And so now I see some content where I'm like, damn, you are laying it down. In 2015, like, this was just not a conversation the internet was ready for.
And so I think in some ways, myself and a number of my contemporaries at the time, like Kat Blaque is somebody who's still around and making a ton of great content, we really laid the foundation, and unfortunately that meant that we took a lot of the slings and arrows for some other creators.
But yeah, I've seen people of all backgrounds, including white people, saying stuff that I'm like, damn, I'm so glad somebody's putting the message out there, but the internet is a very different place today.
SHAY:
But you've never wavered. Like, you've never... Not only have you never wavered, but at least from my vantage point, you never have seemed to have had that cringe era. It's like I could pull up anything from you and be like, "This is still so her."
FRANCHESCA:
That's so funny. It's cringe to me. Some of it's cringe to me, so I appreciate you saying that.
Okay, here's a good example of a cringe video. I had a video the night before my 25th birthday, and I'm crying about getting old. I'm in my 40s now. And I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm turning 25 tomorrow, and I just can't believe I'm so old, and there's all these things that I was supposed to have." It's really sweet. In hindsight, I'm like, "Oh my God, Franchesca, you have no idea."
But as I'm watching it, I'm like, "Wow, this is so cringey." Like, I really felt like 25 was old. I had put a lot of pressure on myself, and I think this is something a lot of people have felt, and I shared it as a 40-year-old me talks to my 25-year-old me. And people loved it because for people who came to my content later, it's surprising to them to ever think that I was an insecure 25-year-old who was comparing myself to my peers.
I was like, "Oh, this person is doing this thing that I wish I had done." And I really wanted an agent. I didn't have an agent at the time, and I was like, "I really wanna act more, and I just, I know I'm good, but it's not happening. Should I give up?" Just all of the hubris and lack of life experience while still feeling like I knew everything at 25. It's, it's pretty cringey.
SHAY:
I can relate so hard because I don't know what it is about our generation that we thought we were gonna have it all figured out by 25.
FRANCHESCA:
I think that's every generation. I just think, I think... Okay, remember when you were in high school and you had a teacher who was 25 and they felt so old? Did you ever have that? Where you were like, "Oh my God, Mr..." What was his name? It started with a Y. He was our improv teacher, and he was a former student of our acting director, and he came and worked one semester, and he was 25, and we thought he was so old. We were like, "What a loser, teaching back at the school." But 25 is not old. Like, that's not old at all. You're a baby.
SHAY:
Yeah. Yeah, I had nothing. Like, even in my 30s I had nothing figured out.
FRANCHESCA:
No. And now, in my 40s, I have some people that work under me that are like 28, 29, and they'll always be complaining about aging, and I'm like, "Oh, you're a baby." But then I have friends that are in their 50s that are like, "Oh, you don't know. Wait till you get to your 50s." So I think that's just part of growing up. Like, everybody at whatever point they're at, it feels like they haven't done enough or they're playing the comparison game. And I think that's one of the many downsides of social media, is we're not supposed to see what everybody's doing at all times.
SHAY:
Oof, yes.
FRANCHESCA:
And it's not real. It's not real. But it's hard to not look at somebody's story and be like, "Wow, they're at an audition. Oh wow, they're at a super fancy dinner. Oh wow, they're on a boat somewhere. Oh wow, they're in the gym, and I'm sitting at home eating a donut." You're constantly inundated with what's happening on every corner of the planet, and it's not healthy. As much as I cringe at the 25-year-old me, I'm like, man, if I was in my 20s now, I feel like I would be even harder on myself because of the internet.
SHAY:
So wait, when you were doing the blogging, did you ever get caught up in Xanga?
FRANCHESCA:
No, I wasn't on Xanga, but I was on LiveJournal. I love that you know what Xanga is.
SHAY:
I do. My coworkers don't even know who Phil Donahue is, so I just feel so vindicated that you know what Xanga is.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. I was on LiveJournal. But before LiveJournal, my internet was Tripod, and they would give you a little bit of web space with your internet. And so I had my own website. It was like tripod.com/anniestar, 'cause I loved Ani DiFranco and stars. So my name was AniStar for like years on the internet. And so I learned how to code. I went to computer camp in like eighth grade, and I was one of only two girls at the camp.
And the other girl, I should've known I was queer, 'cause I was like, "This girl has a website. She's so cool." And she had a website, and I was like, "How do you do that?" And she was like, "I'll show you," and she taught me how to code. And I built my own little website, and I just updated it, and no one was looking at it. I got a digital camera for Christmas, and I got a scanner, and I would get photos printed at like Walgreens, and then I would scan them and put them on my website. And yeah, I was always an internet kid. But again, it was not like it is now, with a central meeting place where everybody was hanging out. Everybody was in their own little corner of the web. And so I was posting on my site, but no one was reading it. I think I had probably one friend that would look at it, but it was just for me.
SHAY:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, gosh, I miss those days.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, I know, me too.
SHAY:
I secretly hope that none of my Xanga data is anywhere to be found. But also, like, I miss when the biggest drama was, "Oh my gosh, I saw so-and-so is not on their top eight on MySpace anymore."
FRANCHESCA:
Oh my God, the top eight. Yeah, that was diabolical.
I will say, I feel like because of, especially with the push of AI, it does seem like the pendulum is kind of swinging and more people are doing offline stuff, and a lot of young people I see are embracing slow hobbies like crocheting or scrapbooking. I feel like people are really hungry for tangible things, like things that feel really personal. And like live theater and stand-up and live musical performances. Like, people wanna know a real person made a thing. People wanna see process. Lots of time-lapse process videos of like painting your apartment or writing in your journal or whatever. And zines.
SHAY:
Even zines being a thing.
FRANCHESCA:
Yes, zines are coming back. It's so cool. I took a printmaking class, and they have a Risograph, which is like a giant, it looks like a photocopier, but it only prints one color at a time. So it prints like all red, all black, all blue. So when you decide you wanna make a zine, you have to draw all of the areas that are red, and then you put it through, and then it puts down the red. And then you put the areas that are gonna be blue. It's so cool. And at the studio, like, they now just have an open hour where if you just wanna come use it, and people are in there making zines.
SHAY:
Wow.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
I have hope.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
But it's...
FRANCHESCA:
I know me too. I'm trying too.
SHAY:
Yeah, yeah.
We have to hold onto hope, if anything. So okay, so the 25-year-old you, would she have ever anticipated that you would be working with somebody who I'm about to tie in our six degrees together, um, Janelle Monáe.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh my God, yeah.
No, not at all. And I was a huge Janelle Monáe fan. I had locks at the time, and I would wear my hair up in this big pompadour. And I was working at Anthropologie, and I would try to wear little menswear things, and I would wear little saddle shoes like her. I was just such a big fan of hers.
And it was really like, I think I worked on an award show on BET called Black Girls Rock with Tracee Ellis Ross, and like she got me that job. And the choreographer for her was a friend of Janelle Monáe's and choreographed for her. And I was flying back to the States from Costa Rica, I'd been there for the holiday, and I get a DM from him. And he's like, "Hey, you probably don't remember me. I have a possible job. Can you call me?" And I'm in the airport, and I was like, "You have a job for me? Okay." So I call him, and he's like, "Oh, we're working on the opening for the Oscars with Janelle Monáe. Do you wanna do it?" And I was like, "Yes." He told me no info beyond like, "Do you want?" And I was like, "Sure. Where do I need to be?"
And so it was a perfect job, 'cause I have done a lot of song parodies, and she was doing a parody, and she was doing like all of the Oscar nominees that year. And yeah, it was really cool. And I wouldn't say we're like best friends now, but we're friendly. Like, I've been to her house. She has a crazy Halloween party every year. She's obsessed with Halloween. Like, full prosthetics, be in prosthetics for ten hours, and like be at the Halloween party with her face covered. Like, it's crazy.
And I've pitched her some stuff to possibly work on since the Oscars, and it hasn't happened. But she's super cool. And no, I never in a million years thought that I would get to do something like that. But again, the internet really brought that opportunity into my life just through a random six degrees of different people that I knew that then led back to her.
SHAY:
I love how your story starts off with, "Tracee Ellis Ross got me this gig."
FRANCHESCA:
Well, and even that, I mean, now that was a crazy one because Tracee started following me on YouTube, and then another friend of mine was like, "Oh my God, I saw that Tracee Ellis Ross liked one of your videos." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" I followed her back, and then I got an email from Tracee's team that was like, "Tracee loves you. If you're ever in LA, let us know." And I just happened to be going to LA to shoot a pilot, one of the billions of pilots that no one will ever see.
And so I went and I met up with Tracee at a hotel or something. And she was like, "Let's shoot a video." And I was like, "Okay." And I just lugged my camera, and we made this video, and it was so fun. And then she was hosting Black Girls Rock, and she was like, "Hey, do you wanna help me with like my monologue?" Sure. So then that's how I got into the Black Girls Rock family, and I worked with them a bunch. So yeah, but again, just through the internet.
SHAY:
Okay, so typically I do a very good job of keeping this on the guest, but I will never forgive myself if I don't tell you this, how we are connected.
So I got a call from a friend of mine to go audition, that Janelle was gonna be on The Late Show with Colbert, and she was looking for dancers and singers. So it was my day off, it was pouring rain. I go from Jersey on the bus over. I'm like, learning the song religiously. We go and we audition. Janelle's not there, she's in Canada, and Jamel was running the audition.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, Jamel. Yeah.
SHAY:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And Jamel was like, "All right, well, if any of the singers can stick around and help me with blocking the choreography, that would be a huge help. But if you can't stay, then you can just leave."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
So all of my singer friends left, and I was like, "What is wrong with you?" Like, just be a body.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
So then we stayed that night, and we moshed for hours. Jamel was like, "It doesn't look realistic enough." And so finally we're taking off our jewelry and stuff and just going in. And then I find out that I had gotten the gig. The next day I find out that the gig is canceled.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, no.
SHAY:
And mind you, I'm waitressing at this time.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
So I'm like, delivering people their burgers, and I'm on the line just not speaking to anybody. I'm so butt hurt. I'm like, "Nobody's ever gonna know that I came this close to working with Janelle Monáe."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
And so then like the next night at like 2:00 in the morning, I get a call from that same friend, who was like, "Hey, Jamel just texted me. It's back on. Are you in?" And I was like, "Absolutely yes." So, so many other details I will tell the listeners about sometime, but for what it was worth, like that day we were in the studio at The Colbert Show, and Janelle was just... I was just so fascinated by how amazing she is. She was picking up everything that same day.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
The studio was freezing cold. She, like, when I got a chance to do my little soundcheck, she was like, "Sing, girl." And I was like, "Oh my God, she just spoke to me." Yeah. But yeah, she was absolutely incredible, and I'm just... Now that The Colbert Show is gone, I'm just cherishing that memory and my little baseball cap that I took from the experience.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
It's also a great reminder of how you just never know.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. And like, the idea that sometimes you think an opportunity is out of your grasp or something doesn't go your way, like it can all change in a minute. And just kind of having to be open to the universe. I'm also ten weeks into The Artist's Way, so that's really speaking to me right now.
SHAY:
Oh, yes. That's right.
FRANCHESCA:
I have it right over there. I have my book. So if you feel like you're hearing some really profound musings, that's what you're hearing.
But like one of the things that the book talks about is how there are no coincidences. And how for a lot of artists a coincidence will happen and people will just dismiss it, and they'll be like, "Oh, well, I can't do that." And it's like, no, no, no. Like the universe is conspiring for you to get the thing that you want. And that's a perfect example where it fell through and then it came back, you know? And something better will come through if that's not the right thing, or maybe it just wasn't the right thing. And timing or opportunity or whatever it may be, that's been like a really powerful reframe for me.
SHAY:
So to bring clarity to this, because as women we are vulnerable, I remember like back during the MySpace days, I was following this really prominent songwriter at the time whose advice on his blog was, "Be willing to go anywhere at any time. Say yes to absolutely everything."
FRANCHESCA:
Mm.
SHAY:
And I got myself into some shit by following that advice because it never occurred to me, oh wait a second, I'm a woman, and that's not the right advice for me.
FRANCHESCA:
Right.
SHAY:
How have you found balance in like saying yes to those right opportunities early on?
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. It's so funny you say that because there's a lot in the book that talks about like knowing when to say yes to things but also not being afraid to say no. And I love that part 'cause that's never been a problem for me. Like I will say no to anything. Like I'll be like, "It's too far away. No." And I genuinely can't tell you where that comes from. It's just always been a part of my personality.
Like, for all of the times that I felt insecure or didn't really know where I was supposed to go or felt jealous or whatever, I've always been someone with very strong convictions. Like, you're not gonna peer pressure me into something that I don't wanna do. You're not gonna neg me. I'm gonna say no and I'm gonna leave.
And similarly, when it comes to career stuff, I really am clear on what it is that I wanna do. And if an opportunity gets presented to me that maybe on paper sounds like a great opportunity but it's not getting me where I wanna go, I'm gonna say no. And the thing that I try to do as often as possible is if I'm gonna say no, like, can I recommend somebody that I know that I feel like is right for this thing, or give you real feedback as to why it's a no for me?
And that was... I will say sometimes it was nerve-wracking, like as an actor when I got an agent, because I would get auditions for things and it would say nudity, and I would say, "Well, that's a no for me." But then I would think like, "Oh, is my agent gonna be mad at me that I said no?" And so instead I would just say like, "Hey, I don't wanna do nudity. And so if you send me an audition and it has nudity, I'm gonna say no." And my agents were like, "Great. Thanks for letting us know. We won't even send those to you anymore, unless it's something that we're like, 'This is a really big one.' We'll send a message that says, 'Hey, this does have nudity in it, but casting really loves you. We think the script is really interesting. They will work with you.'" And so I felt really fortunate that I was able to be empowered in my no, and that I have a team of people that will listen to me when I say no and ask for reasons why, so they can better understand and make sure we're better aligned.
But I always encourage people to really get solid on what they want, because I think especially as artists, you do start to get in a place where you are in a scarcity mindset, where you think like, "If I say no to this opportunity, I'm never gonna have another one." And I'm of the mind that it's better to say no to something that maybe is a good fit versus saying yes to something that's not, and then it just completely derails you or comes back to bite you in the ass later on.
So I don't know. I'm in my year of no, my decade of no.
SHAY:
To be fair, 'cause you said that you don't necessarily know where it comes from, but anything that I've learned about discernment, trusting my gut, boundaries, saying no when necessary, has come from observing the brilliant Black women in my life.
FRANCHESCA:
Hmm.
SHAY:
There's something innate about the magic of Black women, that they know. Like, your intuition is just incomparable.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I really do think that I have really good intuition. And you know, funny you say that because there have been so many times that I look back on things that my mom told me. Like, there would be a friend that she didn't like. She'd be like, "Mm, I'm not a fan of that person." I'd be like, "You don't know, Mom. She's amazing." And then like ten years later something happens and I'm like, "Goddamn. She said she didn't see it for her, and she was right. She was right."
SHAY:
Yep. I have been there with my friends, and they have known every time. And I'm at the point now where I know that they're right, and I'm like, "Goddammit, now I have to end this relationship that's budding."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. Something's messed up.
But I also think that unfortunately is something a lot of women have been told to tamper down. You know, like, "Oh, I have a weird feeling about this person or this thing," and there's this thing of like, "Oh, you're being hysterical. You're reading into it. Like, don't be a party pooper." And I'm really trying to encourage the women in my life, but also in my audience, to listen to that intuition. And it's okay to be like, "Mm, I don't know, I just have a weird feeling about this thing. I'm not gonna go." I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I will leave. Franchesca will leave a party. I'll be like, "Uh, it's cold in here. My feet hurt. I'm gonna go."
SHAY:
Right. Right. I mean, if we just compare that intuition to the level of intuition that, I mean, you were just on your podcast talking to Delon about the maternal instinct. What was that?
FRANCHESCA:
Maternal instinct, that's exactly a perfect example of a lot of people. We watched this terrible documentary. I mean, don't watch it, but basically a perfect example of a woman who was scamming everyone in her life and pretending, she was faking a pregnancy for ten months, and a lot of people knew something was off. People knew something was off, and they were told, like, "Oh, you're just being a hater," or "You're jealous," or "You're whatever." And it has this tragic end that nobody could have anticipated.
But the kernel that I took away from it is, sometimes you need to trust your gut. Because hindsight, unfortunately, you can't go back in time. And I would rather be like, "That girl is weird," and be wrong and piss some people off, than to not say somebody's weird and then something tragic happens and I'm like, "Damn it, I should have said that that girl was weird."
SHAY:
Absolutely. And I can't believe how many people ignored their instincts in order for that situation to happen.
FRANCHESCA:
For sure.
Ugh. So okay, so the podcast that you have with Delon is just one facet of the many things that you have going on. But you're talking about knowing when to say yes to opportunities that will align you towards, I guess for lack of a better term, your North Star.
SHAY:
Are you somebody that believes in the North Star, or do you have like many North Stars? Because you have so many opportunities going on.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, I mean, that was really interesting in The Artist's Way when it asked about the North Star. Like, I felt like I really had to think about that, 'cause I do have a lot of talents and a lot of interests. But I think ultimately my North Star is about making sure that people, but especially Black women, queer Black women, Black people, feel seen. And in all of the multitudes of who we are. And so as long as I can do that in my work, I'm up for it, you know, as long as I have the bandwidth in that respect.
So when people come up with a North Star, it might be more specific, like, you know, I want an Oscar, I wanna have my own movie studio, I wanna whatever. But for me, making Black women feel seen can take many different forms. That can come from who I'm collaborating with, who I'm hiring. I'm working at an ad agency right now, and a lot of times when we're casting, I'm like, why are there no Black people in this casting? We shot this in New York. There's no Black people. We gotta run it back, you know?
Or when we were doing Decoded, just being able to hire people. I have a really awesome friend who's a trans journalist, and she was kind of in between jobs, and I was like, "Hey, we're expanding and doing stuff that's not just race. We're doing stuff that's identity. Do you wanna write some stuff about gender politics?" And she was like, "You know, I haven't done this before, but I'm gonna say yes to this." And I was so glad that I got to offer that opportunity to her.
And I've had a number of times like that where I said no to something and I said, "If I can give you a list of people, let me know." And then I'm just like, let me pass this to other people. So I feel really fortunate that I've been able to continue working towards that North Star, maybe in spaces that feel a little unconventional, like the ad agency, or just in development or creating content or writing songs.
You know, a number of people send me messages about the Leopard song, and they're just like, "I was having a really tough day, and you put out this video and it made me so happy." And I'm like, "Cool. Done for the day. Logging off."
SHAY:
Oh, I love that. So your North Star sounds far more like your personal mission statement than a limiting... 'Cause if you were like, fighting for getting an Oscar, why?
FRANCHESCA:
Right. Well, and I... And you know, no shade to anybody that that's the ultimate thing. But something that I learned pretty early in my career is that I found it's better for me to set goals that are within my control. And truly this came out of when I wrote my book. I was so dead set on, "I must be on the New York Times bestseller list." And then I didn't make the list, and I was so heartbroken. And I was in therapy, and my therapist was like, "Yeah, but you've done a lot of cool things. You did a 12-city book tour. You got... You know, you did all these cool outlets." I posed naked in Women's Health Magazine. Like, I did all this crazy shit around the promo of the book.
And we kind of together came up with this idea of goals you can control, where, you know, win an Oscar, I can work towards it, but there's nothing I can do to make sure I win an Oscar. There are tons of talented people that don't have Oscars. But if I say like, "I wanna write a feature. I wanna take a printmaking class. I want to write in my journal every morning. I wanna run a marathon. I wanna collaborate with more people. I wanna learn to play ukulele." Like, those are things I know I can say, "I want to do this, and I'm going to do it." If it opens other doors to other opportunities that someone else is controlling, awesome. But ultimately I can only focus on what I can do.
And I just found that I was really burning myself out and setting myself up for disappointment when I'm like, "I need a million followers." Like, okay, well, you might get the thing and then realize, "Oh, well what now? I got the thing," or "This isn't actually what I thought it was gonna be." But those little incremental things feel more attainable. And again, those were things in The Artist's Way, and I was like, "Hell yeah. I'm already doing that." So that was really validating too.
SHAY:
You just broke, well, you via your therapist just broke my brain with that concept of making your goals things that you have agency over. Thank you.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, that's, I thank you Shawnee. I hope that she has like a little direct deposit every time I mention her. 'Cause I talk about her all the time. We broke up last year, and I'm like, "Is it weird to email my therapist and be like, 'Hey girl, I know I'm technically not on the roster anymore, but things are going good.'" But yeah, I talk about her all the time. I got a lot, a lot of practical homework out of that.
SHAY:
That is so cool.
By the way, so I don't know if it'll help for you to turn your camera off and on, but you've been freezing in the most beautiful, elegant way. And I'm like, if my camera freezes, I'm just like looking like a mutant, and you're over here with your jaw and your lips pursed and everything.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, that's so funny. Is it back? Am I back?
SHAY:
Not yet, but it's okay.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, that's weird. Okay.
SHAY:
I'll totally continue speaking to this purple still shot of you.
FRANCHESCA:
Oh, sorry. I don't know what happened.
SHAY:
I guess my question is next, naturally, how are you finding all of these hours in the fricking day?
FRANCHESCA:
Ooh. That's such a good question. Oh my God, it's so bad. So I'm working this job. I'm not full-time. I'm what they call a perma-lance, meaning that I'm freelance, but I'm there a lot, and I'm not getting healthcare. I'm there like 20-ish hours, around that amount. The nice thing is I'm working from home, and they are respectful of my schedule. Like, if I put something on my calendar, they can see like, oh, Franchesca's offline for this next hour, so they can't ask me to be in a meeting at that time. And then right now we have summer Fridays, so we have Fridays off from work right now, which is so nice.
SHAY:
It is, it is so nice. Do you hear that, American Humanist Association?
FRANCHESCA:
I know. Summer Fridays.
SHAY:
Summer Fridays are very nice.
FRANCHESCA:
I hadn't worked a corporate job in so long. I think my last corporate job I was a designer at Ann Taylor, and we definitely had Summer Fridays, but I was only there for like a year, maybe two.
Yeah, so I live and die by my calendar. Everything goes on there, even if it's like, "Hey, we should hop on the phone. I want us to catch up." Like I put it on my calendar so that my job sees like, oh, this 30 minutes, Franchesca's in something. It also just helps me remember. I have so many roving deadlines, whether it be I'm working at the agency, but then I also have a few freelance clients, and I'm also going back to stand-up, so like I host a show on Saturdays, and I have maybe one or two shows a week. I have a partner. I have the podcast. I make some of my own content. I go to the gym. I have a very active social life.
So I put things on the calendar. And I'm also an early bird, so I wake up at like 5:30.
SHAY:
Oh, that'll do it.
FRANCHESCA:
I work out before my workday starts, and that is really helpful for me. Yeah, and then I just prioritize. The saying no I think is also part of that. Like, I know what I have to do and what I want to do and what I need to do, and sometimes that just means like, no, I can't go to this party. Like, I need to wake up in the morning and get this audition done before I go to work, or I'm prepping for a show, and I just need to put this time into writing or going to mics or whatever it is.
So yeah, that's been really good. And then just really baking in time for myself, whether it be getting... I try to get a massage every week, which has been really nice to look forward to.
SHAY:
Yes.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. So I will move around my schedule so I can get that massage. And then yeah, like the gym, those are little things that are really important to me. But yeah, it's not easy. I would like to be in a place where I don't have so many jobs. But just right now, the state of our industry is such that yeah, I kinda have to have a few plates in the air.
SHAY:
But that's also encouraging though, because there are so many of us that, like you were just advising that one person that was saying that she was just gonna go all in on her 15-follower Instagram, and I was like...
FRANCHESCA:
I was like, "Girl, don't do it." Yeah. It's so funny that you bring that up. I have had so many people mention that video to me. And I think what's interesting but also a little heartbreaking is there's just so much bad information out there, and I think a lot of people have this perception of content creators or influencers as, like, everybody's trying to sell you something and they're just not being honest with you.
And I think the thing that has really worked for me and is why I've been able to have longevity is I keep it real. Like, I will tell you the truth. Like, even if it's maybe not the nice thing that you wanna hear, I'll try to package it so I'm not being brutal, but a lot of...
Kind of what you were talking about, the guy saying, "Say yes to every opportunity." Like, I'm never gonna tell you that. I'm gonna say, you know, say no. And so this person being like, "I'm so all in on content creation even though I only have 15 followers. I'm gonna take my rent money and I'm gonna go buy a new camera and I'm going all in." I'm like, "You don't need to do that. You can film on your phone. You can rent a camera. You can borrow something." Like, there's really not a ton of money in this.
My latest super cut did like 10 million views on TikTok. I think it made like $4. The money is totally inconsistent, and there are a lot of people who are posturing as if they have this incredible life because they have so many followers and millions of views. And like, the reality is a lot of people are in leased cars and they're renting designer bags and they're using Airbnbs to film their content. Like, they're presenting a life that's not real, and then people are comparing themselves and being really hard on themselves and making these disastrous or dangerous choices because they're trying to keep up with a standard that's artificial.
And so yeah, similarly, when I said I was taking this corporate job, I got a lot of messages from people that were like, "It's so inspiring that you're like, 'Yeah, TV is slow right now. I'm getting a job.'" I was like, "I gotta pay these bills." I don't have a parent who's financially in a space to help me, and you know, no shade to anybody else that is, but that's just not my story.
SHAY:
Mm-hmm.
FRANCHESCA:
And so I said, "I gotta go get a job." So I went and got a job.
SHAY:
When I saw her post, it just, everything that you said, and also the sense of romance that people want when they reverse engineer their success. They want to be able to share that romantic moment when they just threw caution to the wind and gave it all up, and it actually worked out.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah, and you know, now is just not the time.
SHAY:
Right. Now is not the time to do that.
FRANCHESCA:
Not with this administration.
SHAY:
Not, absolutely not.
FRANCHESCA:
And like, I get similarly, I moved to New York in 2009, and I graduated college in 2007, so I was pretty fresh out of college. And I saved my money. But I also had a boyfriend, and so we had two incomes at the time. And so I get lots of people who are like, "Should I pick up and move to LA?" And I'm like, "No, you should not." Unless you have like $15,000 in your bank account, no. It costs a ton of money just to get all your stuff out here, unless you're willing to leave everything and buy all new stuff. Then you have to pay first, last, and security. You need a car. Like, there's just all of these things. It's really expensive.
And the beauty of the internet right now, you don't have to leave bumfuck Idaho or wherever you live to chase your dreams because of the internet. And you don't need a super expensive camera. You can do everything on your phone now. Like, there's just so much stuff that's accessible to creatives that I didn't have. I had to hang a green screen and light it and make sure there were no shadows on it, and now there's an app on your phone. You just click green screen. It's incredible.
Yeah. You know, chase your dreams, but there is nothing wrong with being realistic. There is nothing wrong with having a backup plan. There is nothing wrong with having a day job. And I think anybody who tells you otherwise is lying to you and they're trying to sell you a course or something.
SHAY:
Gary Vee.
FRANCHESCA:
I just, I don't think all courses are bad. I mean, I sold a masterclass, but my masterclass said in bold letters, "This is not a masterclass to teach you how to go viral." And if anyone tells you that, they're lying to you. You cannot teach someone that. But I think you just have to use discernment. And if someone's telling you something that feels too good to be true, chances are it is.
SHAY:
Yeah. And with the Gary Vee of it all, it's more so like him talking about how you have no reason that you shouldn't just live in the back room of some dump and just focus all of your energy into making thousands of pieces of content every day. And it's just like...
FRANCHESCA:
I'm not living in a dump.
SHAY:
Exactly, like what will my mental health be like if I were to live in a dump? Like no, I've been there, done that, don't wanna do it again. No.
But like, with the masterclasses actually, like I am definitely developing a bit better of a scent when it comes to the masterclasses that won't serve you. Like, anything that says like blank to cash, especially if there's alliteration, run the other way.
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah.
SHAY:
But if there's somebody that can help accelerate a certain type of learning for you, like I went to a conservatory for college. I know what it means to be concentrated in your focus. Go for the masterclass, especially if it's just $27.
FRANCHESCA:
I love a class. Delon and I say this all the time between us. He loves a class. He's taken Spanish classes and piano. And I think the thing I tell people is if you're gonna take a class, you need to see, has the person done the things that you wanna do. I'm not taking a class from anybody who has not accomplished the things that I want to do.
And I think the people who are teaching, "Oh, make a million dollars, blah, blah, blah," a lot of those people are teaching you to sell courses to other people. That's gonna help you make money. If that's what you wanna do, go for it. But I see people selling courses, get millions of views, and then I go to their page and I'm like, "But you don't have millions of views. So how are you gonna teach me to do this?"
So I think you just have to be realistic and know that good things take time. I just don't think there's any such thing as an overnight success. Every once in a while it happens, but more often than not, you have somebody like Hawk Tuah girl who blows up overnight. And then like, where's she at? What's she doing? She doesn't know. It's not sustainable. She got into that crypto scheme. And I used her as an example and said, "Look, this is somebody who, in my view, you don't know what it is you wanna do, 'cause you're doing everything."
You know, she's in a weird commercial, she's got a podcast, she's doing crypto. She had a Halloween costume and a soda sponsorship, and she was popping up at concerts, and she was just doing anything because it felt like, "I don't know what I'm doing and all these things are getting thrown my way." And I'm like, look, if she wants to be an actress, go take an acting class. If they had her on stage at some concert and she clearly couldn't string a sentence together, go take a public speaking class. Get a writer to write some jokes for you.
Like, perfect example of, you had this lightning in a bottle moment, and you didn't know what to do with it. And I think too many people are hoping for their big break and they're not preparing for the moment. And what you should be doing is laying the foundation so that when you have the viral video or when Janelle Monáe's choreographer calls you, you're like, "Great, I've been in dance class three days a week for the last five years, and I am ready to kill this audition," because you just don't know when the moment is gonna come.
So stay ready so you don't have to get ready.
SHAY:
So when it comes, you can be like, "Great, I have the script."
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. It does... I cannot tell you how many people have told me or have reached out to me and they say, "I met a really great director and they asked me for a sample. How do I write a sample on a weekend?" I said, "You're not writing a sample on a weekend. You should have been working on that sample all year long so when you meet the producer at a party, you can say, 'Oh, I could email it to you right now.' 'Cause I've been working on the sample." Just, you know. It's a hard lesson to learn, but what can you do? You gotta learn it.
SHAY:
Yeah. I wanna respect your time. I know we only have a little bit of time left, but I do wanna ask you, for the people that are pursuing the different ventures, how do you recommend their loved ones show up for them, their community?
FRANCHESCA:
Yeah. I mean, I see a lot of conversations about this online where people are like, "You know, strangers will support your art over your own friends and family. They're not sharing my content. They're not coming to every performance." And I think you have to be realistic about how you want your friends and family to show up.
Of course, if you've got a big performance, you want them to be there. But you know, as a stand-up for example, I'm doing shows sometimes two or three times a week. My friends are not coming to those. They're in bumfuck wherever, and that's okay. You have to pick and choose and say, like, "Hey, this is a really big one. I would really love for you to come to this one," versus expecting them to be at every single performance. You know, if you started a restaurant, you're not gonna expect your friends and family to eat in the restaurant every week. That's not sustainable. So being intentional in your asks and being specific I think is really important. Don't just, "Oh, come to any show." "No, come to this show on June 6th. It's a really important one. I would love for you. You can buy tickets at da-da-da." Like, be specific.
And then also just being honest about your bandwidth. I think that's really important too. I think a lot of artists start to beat themselves up about, "You know, I gotta stay home and get this writing done. I gotta go to the gym. I gotta go to this dance class. I have to invest my time into my art," and being honest with your friends and family and saying, "It's not that I don't wanna come to this, but I'm working towards something and this is really important and I hope you'll understand that. And instead we can go to coffee, or instead let's hop on the phone and plan a catch-up time."
That's something that I'm a big fan of with my friends. I have a few people that I maybe only see them once or twice a year 'cause they don't live here, but we'll get on the phone and we'll be on the phone for like two hours and we'll have a great catch-up, and we'll say, "Let's do another one of these in like six months."
So just being honest about your bandwidth, I think. And also showing up for your friends and family. I think a lot of times when people have kids, it turns into, like, "Well, I never see them 'cause they have a kid," and blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, can you go to their house after the kid goes to sleep and you guys can catch up that way? Or can you come, bring some snacks and you can all sit and eat Cheerios together with the kids? Like, how can you amend your time and your schedule to fit other people's lives, I think is really important.
There's a phrase that's been going around of like, "Everybody wants a village, but nobody wants to be a villager." Like, sometimes you gotta take somebody to the airport. Sometimes you have to be like, "Oh, it's raining and so and so's having a party on the West Side. I really don't wanna go." But like, I need to show up. I need to show up for them 'cause they're my friend.
So you can't do it all, but I think you have to be intentional, and for me that's where that calendar comes in. And you know, we make time for what's important to us, and if that's friends, if that's your art, like you find a way.
SHAY:
Well, thank you for making time to come on this podcast, 'cause this was so important to me.
FRANCHESCA:
Aw, thank you so much for having me.
SHAY:
There will forever be the time before I had Franchesca on the podcast and after, so. Thank you so much.
FRANCHESCA:
How can we support you moving forward?
SHAY:
Yeah. You can go to franchesca.net. That's my website. And I've been trying to be better about putting up my stand-up stuff. I'm working on my half hour and hopefully gonna take that out and maybe do a little mini tour, which I'm excited about.
You can follow me across social media @cheskaleigh, C-H-E-S-C-A-L-E-I-G-H. I have a podcast called Let Me Fix It that's exclusively on YouTube. It comes out every Wednesday at noon Pacific, 3:00 PM Eastern. We've got a live chat, which has been really fun. And yeah. And I'm also doing consulting and stuff, so if you have thoughts about content creation, you don't know where to start, send me a message through my website and hopefully we can find a time to work together.
SHAY:
Thank you so much, and please tell Delon we send our love.
FRANCHESCA:
I will.
SHAY:
He's such a dream.
FRANCHESCA:
He's the best. Thank you so much, Shay.
SHAY:
Thank you so much.
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