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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Yeah. I mean, it it's something maybe a learning moment for junior designers, both freelance and in house at it's, for me at least, I always was scared to ask too many questions because I didn't want to come across as someone who just doesn't get it or waste time off the stakeholder slash client. So I would rush to this point of, yeah. Yeah. I get it.
Nick:I'll get to work, you know. But then you have this big risk of what what I just told you. Just is aligning. You're officially live. We're officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:So Nick, it is not Halloween. However, I just I think today is gonna be a very interesting episode. We're gonna talk about horror stories in tech or in more specifically, in the design space. I think we're gonna be sharing some horror stories that we've personally experienced.
Nick:I'm very
Tyler:curious I'm very curious to do a deep dive in both our stories that we can share.
Nick:Right. Right. But maybe
Tyler:but maybe to kick things off, I would love to hear if you have maybe maybe just one horror story or maybe it's many. I'm curious to learn about yours.
Nick:You know, I I know a very interesting one. Let's let's call it interesting from the really the beginning of my career. So fresh out of school, no job experience, you know, spending months trying to get an interview even. And at some point, I had an interview. I borrowed my mom's car, drove all the way over there to this company's office, sat in the waiting room for twenty minutes, was invited in.
Nick:And this hiring manager, like three minutes in, he he he he interrupts me. He's like, Nick, let's just stop here. You know what? You're never gonna make it. And then I'm he's telling me a whole rant of things and reasons why I'm a terrible designer and and blah blah blah blah blah.
Nick:Twenty minutes driving, twenty minutes waiting, and three minutes in the interview. Now five minutes later, I'm in the car again. I'm like, woah, what just happened? And I was on my way back home. That's that's the very first one I I thought of, and it's probably it actually is the first one because it was so early days for me.
Tyler:What was that like, what hap so it part of the interview and then you kind of stopped halfway through. Like, what what was the conversation around? What was the what was the job there?
Nick:It was, you know, it was very early days. So it's it it was a mix of, you know, visual design and and a bit of UX. You know, it mostly was a, you know, creative agency, you know, doing all sorts of stuff, you know, social media design with also websites. So it's very you know, it's UX maturity, not so high. You know, it's one of those companies where they were like, well, we need to do something with UX, So let's just hire a UX designer.
Nick:And my visual skills weren't so strong back then, you know, just fresh out of school, more UX focused and visual design focused. So I actually think, you know, looking back at this moment now, I just think there was a a big mismatch. You know, I was like, hey, UX. And they were like, hey, visual. And I showed my more or less visual skills, you know, the well, a little bit of skill that I did have then.
Nick:And, yeah, it just didn't fit, I think.
Tyler:Did you feel the the the disconnect or, like, it wasn't a good fit on your end, or it was really a a shock after
Nick:It it was a shock for sure. Yeah. For me, it was it was a big shock. You know, I was so, you know, fresh and inexperienced. I just didn't know.
Nick:I I I really was stunned in in the end. I was like, woah. I mean and I I believed him for a moment, you know, back then because it was my, I think, my second ever interview. So I was just so hyped to even get an interview. You know, I I think many of our listeners will be able to relate to that.
Nick:You know, after just months of trying and sending letters and and trying to get through the door somewhere, I was like, wow. This is going to be it. I'm going to get a job, going to move out, going to build my career. Let's go. And then five minutes later, I'm in the car again.
Nick:You know, it's just completely kicked out the door. So it was really silly. Yeah. Can can you top that story?
Tyler:I probably maybe I'll make it a slow burn. I think I'll I'll I'll share maybe a similar story. I think this was I had just graduated or I had graduated from my three d two d three d animation course in hopes to get into the film industry or the gaming industry. I had mentioned before that I I couldn't find a job. Again, my my my dad, he had a connection with a printing shop.
Tyler:They would do, like, banner ads, etcetera, etcetera. So I'd went so I I'd gone for the interview. It wasn't even an interview. Was like, is this something you've been interested? Like, here, go to work kind of thing.
Tyler:So I was kind of thrown, like, thrown into the software. I had to kinda set everything up. And and to be like transparent, I had zero print experience whatsoever. Like, I had learned I had not learned graphic design or anything at that point. I was just like, I liked visual stuff and I learned special effects for movies.
Tyler:So like, that skill did not translate. So I was looking at this software and I was getting into Pantones and printing, which I had I had no idea about. I'd fumbled with a software for like twenty to thirty minutes, and I was like, I don't know when any of these toggles, settings are switches. Like, this is I don't know, man. I don't know what this is.
Tyler:I don't think this I think I said, I I don't think I can do this. This is not for me. It was like it was like the the immediate, like, dark cloud, like, oh, this is not at all what I've learned. This is not what I can do, and I probably this is probably not the right fit
Nick:for me.
Tyler:I mean, good on my dad for for for suggesting and kind of pulling his connections. But at that point in my career, probably even now, I I don't think I can do print design. I don't know. Like, outside of, like, actual print, like connecting to the actual printer itself versus sending a file to be printed, that's a world that I've I've never explored.
Nick:Oh. It's it's a very different world. But what did you tell them? Like, did you did you actually tell them like, no. Sorry.
Nick:Or
Tyler:Yeah. I think I don't think I can because there I felt it on their side also. It's like, do you think you can do this kind of thing? I told them about my background, and it there was no there was a clear no. I didn't learn any of the skill sets.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:So it was both of us like, well, let's see if I can figure this out. And in the end The answer was no.
Nick:Big capsule letters, exclamation point, no.
Tyler:No. Absolutely not.
Nick:And because of it, of course, also the only designer. The founders were, you know, from a technical background. So in a startup, as you probably know, you have this, of course, I can do this mentality, you know, because there's no money to hire someone else. You know, if you are the designer at the startup, you do all the design stuff. So they were scheduled to go to an event.
Nick:They wanted to have some flyers just to to leave stacks somewhere or just give to people, you know. So naturally, I I was like, well, you know, let's just make it. I'll I'll I'll design it. I'll print it. I'll find a shop to to print it and, you know, to press it even, then, you know, it will all be good.
Nick:So I didn't have any knowledge about it either. So I didn't know, for example, that RGB colors on the screen, there are way more of them compared to CMYK in print. So we had this really cool brand color, like this awesome sort of pink hue, and we printed, spent a lot of money, flyers came in, and they came in orange because the printer looked for the nearest color. That's the most like the thing you can display on the screen but not in print. So that was a horror moment because I was responsible, and we were tight on cash as an early day startup.
Nick:And then I had to explain why that happened and, you know, get a second run of prints, and it delayed us, and it was expensive, blah blah blah blah. So that was a a big mistake on my end and a learning moment also of all the differences between those two core schemes.
Tyler:That's I think that's the only way you learn that. Right? Like Yeah. You you, like, you you learn RGB and then there's a difference between CYK. Like, how many times does someone print in their life when straight out of school?
Tyler:I imagine that's not like, in your art program, did you learn print at all?
Nick:Very minor. You know, we we did have one subject on, you know, here's InDesign. Learn how it works. And at the end, you will make a magazine. You you'll make a little book, and you print it, and then it's all good.
Nick:Everyone got an a because they finished the thing. Right.
Tyler:You know,
Nick:it's not like, know, that that kind of grading. Like, did you finish? Yes. Okay. Pass.
Nick:Did you not finish? Yeah. Redo it. So we have very, like, high level. I had no idea.
Nick:But now, still, that's now well over ten years ago. I will never forget it. So what you're saying is very true. Learn by falling on your face, and I really fell on my face a few stories down on the pavement. I heard a lot, but now I will always check if I can actually print the thing I have on my screen.
Tyler:Yeah. It reminds me when I had to do some I worked at a startup where I had to do not only, like like, UX design, but also web design and then also print design as well for, like, we we were selling a physical product. And I had to design all, like, the the the packaging. And then the printer that we we sourced had a like, you you generally print in batches. So, like, you can't just do what general sometimes depending on the printer, can do, like, a test print.
Tyler:Like, here here's the file. Print out one, and then send us a picture of it. And so I can see if it's if it's good, and then you can print the rest. We were working with a printer that, like, there was no test print. A test print was 10,000 kind of thing.
Tyler:So for, like, that not only what that was probably my first actual doing packaging design experience, but also dealing with the constraint of dealing with a printer who doesn't do test prints.
Nick:Right. So you have to get it right instantly.
Tyler:I have to get it right the first time. I think we had switched to another printer that will allow us to do, like, one test print on a single sheet.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Yeah. But even there, it was like, we would get like, we would send the file. They would print it out, and then I would get an iPhone shot of the printout. So it's not even like I'm getting a detailed visual feedback feedback on like, oh, is it one to one between what I designed on my on my iMac versus what got printed out? I have like this pixelated angled view of the sheets that I have to go go yay or nay, which is super frustrating and scary.
Tyler:It's like, sure. That looks great. I mean, I didn't say the it wasn't my thumbs up only. It was like, hey. I'm like, team, do we think this is good?
Tyler:Yes or no? So it's not only sitting on my shoulders to have that that $5,000 print job on my shoulders. But Yeah. Print the print rolls is so yeah. It's scary.
Tyler:So I I get it.
Nick:There's no undo button like you have in in Figma or commits you can run back in code. You know, it's it's it's printed. It's there. It's it's resources spent. And then packaging, you know, it's it's a whole different game also compared to something you you design in software because it's it's three d.
Nick:You can you can pick it up, put it somewhere. You have to think about like, if it's in a store somewhere, there's light on top of it and shadowing and it sits on the shelf compared to next to other things. Like, there's so much thinking going on there, which is, you know, it's it's a whole different game. So, yeah, it's it's good to to hear you have the same struggle with print. You know, it's not just me.
Tyler:No. I I I've been historically I just don't I don't have the experience for it. I was never taught. So I it's a world that I'm not gonna dip my toes in. Mhmm.
Nick:Yeah. I have another one. And that I mean, that's this is really a freelancer mistake or maybe something you can do in house as well. But someone I worked with before, very in good way, he only had, like, small requests for me. You know, okay.
Nick:This thing looks off. Can you, you know, help me? Can you redesign it? Can you log in to WordPress or Figma Figma for us and just clean this up? And then I would spend two hours, you know, and then that's done.
Nick:And then at the end of of the month, I would I would keep track of all the things I did during the month and then send an invoice for hours spent. You know, it's that kind of client. Like, it's a small but fun client. And then at some point, he comes to me like, okay. We are going to do a landing page for an event.
Nick:You know? We have already a visual design from, like, a previous event. Can you update this event to or can you update the design to work with a new event? Here's the inputs, like here's the dates and the speakers and all that kind of stuff. I was like, okay, sure.
Nick:That's, you know, like medium sized work yeah, compared to the work we've been doing so far, let's say, about four or five hours. He's like, okay. Done. Sold. Turns out, it was just way bigger.
Nick:Like, I was dropped into his team. I was, you know, required to join meetings and think about stuff, it turns out just to be so much bigger than what I got from the messaging that we did around that request. So there I was, you know, I made time in my schedule for about four or five hours, but then it turns out it would take days, and I didn't have the time. So I had to rush another project, rush his project, and didn't do a good job. Lost two clients because of it.
Nick:And Oh, no. I never spoke to the guy again just because I didn't understand a request and or I didn't ask enough questions to make sure that it wasn't, you know, bigger than I anticipated. Before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both of us. No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. Not a good move.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, it's it's like learning lessons. Like, it's it's you learn, I guess, and and you know this probably more now, like, it's can I trust this person? And and as soon as that trust is eroded, it's it's it's hard to get back. So it's constantly having to show up doing what you say you need to do, understanding like, executing understanding the brief and then making sure you execute every time or else unless you've built out that relationship, like, you're you gotta bat a 100% all the time.
Nick:True. True. Yeah. I mean, it it's something maybe a learning moment for junior designers, both freelance and in house that it's for me, at least, I always was scared to ask too many questions because I didn't want to come across as someone who just doesn't get it or waste time of the stakeholder slash client. So I would rush to this point of, yeah, yeah, get it.
Nick:I'll get to work, you know? But then you have this big risk of what what I just told you, just misaligning on, you know, hours required or things to deliver. And then the result then is just way worse compared to asking one or two extra questions. So now I ask more. And if a client is annoyed by it, it's probably not a good fit then.
Nick:Because now I and now I'd just like to ask a few more questions just to make really sure we are on the same page.
Tyler:Yeah. Because it's a two way street. Like, it should be you should both be confident. Like, you should be confident in them as an as a employer or and they should be, yeah, it should be a two year story. It's like it's a relationship at end of the day.
Tyler:Yes. They're paying you for a thing, but, like, you should feel comfortable doing the thing they ask you to do.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And it's going way better now. You know, now I'm I'm prepping for a moment when the the the twins are born.
Nick:So I'm going to do three days a week of work for the rest of the year. But now, you know, more or less, like, one or two weeks before they arrive, I'm already I already worked down two, three days a week. So now I have a bit of time left over and I just feel so much clarity to really give clients all the attention they deserve. It does make you think. Like it's probably better to be 90% booked of your time compared to 100.
Nick:Because if you're booked 100% of the time, you are just like there's you cannot end up in a traffic jam or with Internet issues or, you know, anything that will take you above 100% because then you're rushing things. So it does make me think for the rest of, let's say, next year, like up until what level I want to fill up my my, you know, bookable time. Yeah. That's fair. Or work faster.
Nick:And then there'll be 60%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:I'm not a I'm not a 10 just yet. That doesn't exist. Well, maybe it does. Who knows? The definition is blurry for me.
Tyler:I think I have one left in the chamber. Yes. I have I discovered that the company that I was working for, I was working in house, was sourcing different UX studios without my knowledge.
Nick:With you still being there and
Tyler:with me me still being there. So I was Okay. The only designer at the company. And, you know, sometimes when you're looking for I was looking to book, like, a one on one with my manager. And I think in Google Meet, you get to see like what meetings they have so you can align like what are the gaps kind of thing, but you also get to see all depending if the privacy setting is off, you get to see what meetings they have booked.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:And I and I noticed I noticed that there was a couple of agencies that I that looked familiar to me because I I know them pretty well. Some of them were in in in Montreal where I live. And I discovered that they were looking for the UX agencies to to to fix some of the issues or to work on on the product itself while I was there, which was unbeknownst to me. So that was a bit stressful. I was like, my your your head kind of goes in different directions.
Tyler:Like, what do they why are they why are they looking? Am I not doing a good good enough job? Should I should I bring this up? Should I not bring this up? How should I how should I approach this?
Tyler:Yeah. Which is really like scary fields. Why are they first of all, I'm the only one only UX person there. So like replacing me with a agency is a move that can be done versus, like, if you have a fully fledged team there. So Mhmm.
Tyler:Yeah. A bit a bit scared, a bit hurt as well since they were they didn't come to me first.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I mean, there there's I I have questions. Yes. I imagine you had questions back when you just discovered that as well, like you just said. But, you know, it it it could be harmless.
Nick:It could be that they just want to speed up the UX process. There's more on your plate than you can handle as an individual, not because you're not good enough, but just because you only have x amount of time to work on things. Or the negative version, they just don't like you. They want to sell the UX work to someone else and just get rid of you. But then regardless of the direction it's going into, it's probably better to have communicated this with you before Yes.
Nick:They started this. Alright. So I'm main question is, what happened next? Because I'm very curious to what what were their reasons and
Tyler:I had brought it up. Like, I was like, alright. I gotta I brought it up to my manager. I'm like, hey. I noticed when I was booking like, was transparent.
Tyler:I noticed when I was booking a session with you that you had on your calendar sessions with these these agencies. I was curious of the reason why. Is there something that I'm not doing correctly, etcetera, etcetera? And what they said that, yeah, we're just looking, exploring. There is a certain level of design debt that had been accrued.
Tyler:They're they're trying to look at it, that's what they said. I'm like, okay, cool. And then they sent they sent over the recordings for the previous sessions, and I was able to kind of go over them. But but in the that is one of the jobs that I had I was let go of. So like it was the end the end state was I was let go.
Tyler:I don't think I was replaced by, like, a the agency. I think it just another designer or two designers that had come in, but there was writings on the wall, I think.
Nick:Yeah. So when you were let go, was it relatively short period of time after this this whole thing Yeah. I think
Tyler:it was like a month or two after.
Nick:Mhmm. Right. Right. I I think they they wanted to let go of you sooner, but then with you discovering that they felt it was probably nicer to just let you forget about it for a while and return back to production and then let you go.
Tyler:Well, yeah. And if a it's it's lined up with, like, the hire and fire. No. It's the there's a if in house, there's generally, like, at the end of the year, like, I think, January or February, there's the there's the fire and promotion, period. It's like happens, like, in the last thing.
Tyler:So it's like budget see season, and this happens across most most most tech companies. It's like, you either get a promotion or it lines up with, like, your end of year review. So they review everyone's work. If you excel, they'll get a promotion. If you're doing good, that'll just like maybe they'll give you a slight increase.
Tyler:And then they get rid of the dead weight. So I think it was part of part of that dead weight.
Nick:Yeah. I mean I mean, that makes you think and and and scratch behind your ears like, you know. What happened? Like, why me, I imagine.
Tyler:Yes. 100%. I got a vague answer, I had no idea. This there's not it's not a fit.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. It's not you. It's us. Blah blah blah.
Nick:All I can say is look at you now. Big success that you are. I appreciate that. Yeah. I was let go of politics reasons once too.
Nick:I I worked at a a large international Dutch company, and they had clients around the world. And they asked me if if I well, it it it was a question, but you you know the type of question where it's not really a question like they ask you, but they expect a certain answer. They expect you to to say yes and be honored to be considered. They wanted me slash asked me to go to a client in in Asia, you know, so just for for new listeners, I'm in The Netherlands. So Asia literally means the other side of the world.
Nick:If he wants to go there, do some UX research, and and support a client like on-site over there. And then for many people, that's a wonderful opportunity to travel the world and that kind of stuff. But it didn't fit my situation at home at that time. So I said no to them. Family comes first for me.
Nick:And they they were like, mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know? They they they said, okay.
Nick:But you could see from body language and everything that they weren't happy at all. And then next January, like you said, I came back from my Christmas break. I came to the daily stand up meeting, and I was like, hello, guys. Happy to be back. Can't wait to get started on all the cool challenges that we have on our on our list this quarter.
Nick:And then it was like total silence. And product owner told me like, oh, didn't you tell didn't didn't they tell you? Turns out during the Christmas break, they they kicked me out and I did They didn't know.
Tyler:The work. They didn't tell you.
Nick:Yeah. And it turns out my manager. So, yeah, the product owner and manager were different people. The product owner told my manager, and my manager forgot to tell me. So I I was all rested and energized and and happy to continue.
Nick:And then I was like, oh. And like the same day, like one hour after the meeting, was, you know, improving and refreshing my CV.
Tyler:I see. That didn't they tell you a line probably? That one hurt me just hearing.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's what in in my experience, and then I'm not want to to be negative or anything, but that's I think it's it's also part of of working in a large company where, you know, some a manager has to tell another manager about someone in the team of someone else. Like, there are so many different layers you have to go through and there's just noise on the communication line and things go wrong. People forget things, you know, and then things like that happen.
Nick:But it it did add another reason to my list of reasons to finally go freelance. So, you know, in the end, I'm I'm I'm almost grateful for it happening. I was think time, I was like, that's that's it. I I'm sick of it. I've had enough.
Nick:I'm not going to search for a job anymore. I'm going to go freelance. You know? Had this whole almost angry energy level over me. You know?
Nick:So all good in the end, I think.
Tyler:Yeah. I think, like, these I think we said it before, but, like, the the happy path is never what makes a truly great designer. It's it's those those battle wounds of war, like, the and I think that's the purpose of this episode is like, those horror stories are what make us the designers that we are today. And also, like, we learn things in in every one of those moments.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure.
Nick:And, you know, we've had some episodes where it almost feels like a therapy session. And this one's also a little bit like that because none of the horror stories told by any of us results in the other one being like, yeah, they were right. You suck. You know? I felt felt a lot of support.
Tyler:Yep. They're never right. It's always well, if we're being pragmatic, it was there wasn't right moment for both parties back then.
Nick:Mhmm. Of course.
Tyler:So there's always a better situation, a better fit for it may not be like, this is a message probably for junior designers. Like, it may be the case that it's just like it's not that you are not good. It's just that you are a good fit for that particular place or company Yeah. Or time.
Nick:True. Yeah. I I mean, that's probably smart to end the episode on some some specific takeaways. You know, not being in the right not being the right fit is a good one. An extension of that is that it I really want to say is that it goes both ways.
Nick:Like you weren't a good fit for them, but they were also not a good fit for you. I know it feels endless at times with all the job searching and all the rejections and all the being ghosted. And for me, it's easy to say from a position of having enough projects to work on. But in the end, when you get your job, it's a good moment to look back and be like, yeah, I'm happy I didn't get a job back then. Because compared to what I have now, it's way worse.
Nick:You know? A 100%. Yeah. And keep saying no. Also a good thing.
Nick:Like, juniors want to please. They don't want to upset managers. But I spoke to a manager today, and they shared a screenshot of feedback they got on on an idea. And they said, this is really great. They really get it.
Nick:But I also wish they didn't agree with me all the time. You know?
Tyler:That's a hard one. You don't learn that early. It's like you're you're so thankful to have something that, like, you're afraid to say no and to push back.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I still have that sometimes. Sometimes a little bit. Yeah.
Nick:But they they pay you for your expertise. They don't pay you to say yes. That's a different career. Yes. A 100%.
Nick:And that's not me just saying yes because I'm scared of you. No. No. No. There's a there's a big pool of water between us.
Nick:So I think the both of us, we are very safe.
Tyler:So stay positive. Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.