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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:17] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing. Our podcast aims to [00:00:25] support, inspire and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I am chatting to Adrian Bethune. Adrian is a part-time primary school teacher, associate lecturer at Oxford Brooks University, deputy Chair of the Wealth Skills Strategic Board, and the founder of Teach Happy.
[00:00:46] In 2012, he was awarded a Happy Hero medal in [00:00:50] the House of Lords for his work on developing wellbeing in schools. In 2015, he was invited to speak at the Action for Happiness Event, creating a Happy World on stage with the Dalai Lama. Adrian is author of the award-winning book, wellbeing in the Primary Classroom, A Practical Guide to Teaching Happiness.
[00:01:09] He's also co-author with Dr. Emma Kel of a Little Guide to Teach Your Wellbeing and Self. Care [00:01:15] and lead author for the Oxford International Curriculum for Wellbeing. He's currently co-editing the book questions of Teacher Wellbeing for ECTs. Due out in late 2025, it was an absolute pleasure to chat to Ian.
[00:01:30] In this episode, we discussed perfectionism, workload management. And the importance of parent wellbeing, as well as hearing Adrian share his own personal experience of mental health [00:01:40] issues and why he got the nickname Angry Adrian, enjoy.
[00:01:49] Welcome, Adrian. It's great to have you here. Thanks for having me, Julie. Really pleased to be chatting with you this morning. I, I feel like we've already just had a pre-chat and that we've actually put the world to writes and we should have pressed record about five minutes ago, so I'm hoping that there's still some good [00:02:05] stuff left.
[00:02:05] I'm sure there will be. I'm absolutely delighted that you've joined us here today. I know you and I are on the same page when it comes to the importance of good wellbeing in our school communities. You've found your teach happy. You are an author. We're gonna come back to those books a little bit later.
[00:02:23] You also teach part-time alongside wearing several other hats. Um, you're clearly a busy man, Adrian. [00:02:30] I wonder whether we could just begin with you sharing a little bit of your story, how he got to where you are today. Yeah, so before I got into teaching and education and even wellbeing, I worked for several years in the music industry and I was, you know, always into music.
[00:02:48] I used to DJ as a hobby, did an English degree at uni, thinking I was gonna become a journalist. 'cause [00:02:55] that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to write and be a journalist and then. I basically saw, there was this school of sound recording in Manchester where I went and I was like, when I graduated, I really wanna do a music production course, which is what I did, and ended up working for a record label and.
[00:03:12] Traveled the world with them for a year and then ended up in music publishing, like the business side of things. And you [00:03:20] know, it was good fun. It was well paid. You know, we talked earlier, I used to get a, a bonus. I used to have long lunches. It was in terms of work life balance, it was. Perfect. But one thing that was really lacking was a sense of purpose.
[00:03:35] Like all I felt I was doing in my job was making rich music publishers richer. And so there was this kind of na ni, niggling nagging feeling [00:03:45] like, this isn't really what I wanna do in the long run, but I didn't know what I should be doing. And then that, I dunno, few years later. In my late twenties, I went through this period of like really poor mental health.
[00:03:59] So a lack of purpose was a big driver. Another thing that happened, this was back in 2008, it was the world financial crisis. I had just bought my first [00:04:10] flat. It was a shared ownership flat, couldn't afford a whole flat. Um, and I felt this real heavy weight of responsibility, like, God, I've got this mortgage.
[00:04:21] The world financial situation is looking dire. Will I keep my job? I just felt anxious and I'd gone through anxious periods in the past that are dissipated. You know, studying for exams, moving out of home, [00:04:35] going to uni, but those feelings dissipate. Once your exams have gone and you relax into summer, or you settle into your halls of residence, you make friends.
[00:04:44] You know this. Time, those feelings weren't going away. They were kind of exacerbating. I was also in a relationship at the time, I thought I was going to get married with this person, and that started to unravel [00:05:00] and I think at the heart of my really difficult period of mental health was a sense of loneliness.
[00:05:08] So I was living in London. Busy city. Good job. Well paid in a relationship, but I felt really lonely. I felt really anxious and I didn't know how to get out of that rut and. It basically got worse. [00:05:25] So anxious feelings just became acutely anxious. I couldn't sleep at night. I lost my appetite. Um, ended up breaking out with my girlfriend.
[00:05:35] Things that normally brought me pleasure weren't bringing me pleasure like I was playing football. But you know, and it is partly because when you are acutely anxious, you cannot relax. Like ever, like even when you're doing something, like you could be out with friends [00:05:50] having dinner and you're just thinking.
[00:05:52] The whole time and not just thinking like, you are catastrophizing and you are worrying. And often the worry was, after this meal, I'm gonna go back to my flat and I'm gonna be alone. So that's where that loneliness, you know, kept coming in. And I've subsequently read like a sense of feeling lonely, like harms us.
[00:06:12] Like there's areas of the brain that light up that. [00:06:15] Process, physical pain, like loneliness feels physically painful and I definitely felt that. And eventually it wasn't sustainable like I was still, I never had a day off sick from work, and that was partly because I didn't wanna be at home alone. I wanted to go to work and be around people, but eventually not sleeping, not eating properly.
[00:06:37] I kind of burned out and that's when my [00:06:40] depression kicked in, which was. I didn't feel a deep sense of sadness. I felt nothing like that's, that was my experience of depression was a complete absence of feeling. So my acute anxiety was like intense fear, worry, ah, whereas my depression was nothing. I felt no feeling towards anything.
[00:07:02] I felt no motivation, [00:07:05] overriding thought and feeling was everything's pointless. Going to work pointless, getting in a relationship, pointless, being happy, pointless. So yeah, that, that was that period in my life. And then at the time, a, a good friend of mine who I used to work at record label with, could see I was struggling.
[00:07:24] Other people could see I was struggling. And they basically recommended I go and see a counselor. [00:07:30] Uh. I say that now, like, no, that was not on my radar of things to help me get better. It was in my head. Go to the gp, probably get some medication and that might help, and I didn't wanna do that. So yeah, I took up.
[00:07:45] Their advice went to see a counselor, and that was just hugely beneficial to me. Like my friends and family at the time were really supportive and they really helped me through a [00:07:55] lot of the tough times. But to speak to a trained professional that truly understood what I was going through could help me gain some own insights, could frame things for me that helped me understand what I was going through.
[00:08:10] Just like. Massively helped. And one of the key things I remember my counselor therapist said at the time was, you living on your own, having [00:08:20] this mortgage, you know, all of these big responsibilities. She was like, it feels like it's a rites of passage for you. Like you are growing up. You are becoming an independent, a truly independent adult.
[00:08:31] And it's scary and it's difficult, but even her framing it as a rites of passage made me realize in that moment, like. I'm on a journey. I'm heading somewhere rather than I'm stuck, which is what I felt like. So [00:08:45] yeah, that really helped. When I started to feel a bit better, as in those feelings of emptiness, nothingness, everything's pointless, started to dissipate a bit.
[00:08:56] I then just started to research stress, anxiety, depression, to understand more, like just analyze what I was going through a bit more. I learned load about mental health. I just didn't know before. Certainly didn't learn at school. [00:09:10] And I also, through this research, started to kind of learn more about the science of wellbeing, which I definitely hadn't come across before.
[00:09:18] And the science of wellbeing, one definition of it is the scientific study of what makes life worth living. And so that really resonated, uh, with me. And so. What I started to do is just make small tweaks and changes based on things that I'd read. [00:09:35] Whether it was like writing in a journal, whether it was dipping my toe in the waters of meditation and I was doing everything wrong.
[00:09:44] Like, you know, I was reading stuff and then trying to meditate, looking at a candle, you know, things I'd read about and I was like, oh God, this makes me feel worse. But I was trying, I was doing stuff. I was trying stuff out, and even that was quite empowering. There were some things that really worked like.
[00:09:59] [00:10:00] Exercising, drinking less alcohol, like I wasn't like a massive drinker, but I realized that drinking made my depressive feelings feel much worse, so I kind of eased back there, started to eat more healthily, just like. It. It's such obvious common sense to me now, but back then I just didn't have that knowledge and that awareness.
[00:10:21] And one of the things that kept coming up in the [00:10:25] research was that volunteers are some of the happiest people in society. And then the things I was reading, it's like there's some debate. Does volunteering make you happier or do happier? People tend to volunteer more, and the truth is there's evidence to support both.
[00:10:41] You know, volunteering does boost your wellbeing and, and typically when you have high levels of wellbeing, you're more likely to volunteer. And [00:10:50] so I signed up, and this is two years after that difficult mental health period. I signed up to this, um, mentoring program with a charity in London called CHANCE uk, and I mentored a 9-year-old boy.
[00:11:04] Who was at risk of being kicked out of mainstream school, and that was whilst working in the music industry still. And so even though my job, my nine to five job had a [00:11:15] complete lack of purpose, doing the mentoring gave my life so much more purpose. Like I would look forward to our weekly meetups. I'd be thinking about my mentee whilst I was at work thinking, oh, maybe I could take him to this museum in London, or maybe I could get him signed up.
[00:11:30] You know, it was like my work. Lacking purpose didn't matter 'cause I had something else important in my life. And then a good friend of mine who was a [00:11:40] primary school teacher, asked me if I'd volunteered to be a governor at her school, which was, you know, half an hour away from where I lived. And so I said yes to that.
[00:11:49] And basically those two experiences, the volunteering, the mentoring, and the uh, governing made me want to retrain to be a teacher. 'cause I thought actually I want to work with children like this. The boy I'm mentoring, I want to help [00:12:05] them fit in at school. I, I want to help them be successful. Um, and I want this to be my day job rather than just something I do in my spare time.
[00:12:15] And that's what led me to retrain to teach in 2010. And then when I got in the classroom, I didn't just want to teach national curriculum. I wanted to teach children. A lot of these skills, a lot of the knowledge that I had learned as an adult that I [00:12:30] wish I had known growing up because it's simple, practical things that we should all know.
[00:12:35] You know, whether it's about how to, um, improve sleep hygiene or how to improve, you know, your diet, how to move your body regularly, and the importance of that, how to reframe worries and negative thoughts, all, all of this stuff. Um. And that's what I started to do. I just started to [00:12:55] teach mini happiness lessons.
[00:12:57] I didn't ask permission from the head teacher to do it. I just carved out five, 10 minutes and just said, oh guys, you know, I read this thing the other day, you might want to know about this. And there was just loads and these little five minute chunks of time that I carved out where I'd just share things that I'd learned and or read loads of engagement, loads of questions from the kids and.
[00:13:19] Just grew from [00:13:20] there. I started to bring in meditation after, um, the register just as a little experiment. And then I was on playground duty and Frank, the biggest boy in the class was like, when are we gonna meditate again? Like just, there was just genuine curiosity and interest. And so that's what eventually led me to writing wellbeing in the primary classroom.
[00:13:42] 'cause it just wasn't [00:13:45] common. Knowledge, it wasn't common practice and I wanted to share these ideas more and make it more mainstream and more so. It wasn't just my school doing it, it was more schools and more teachers doing it. I love that. Thank you Agie. Thank you for your honesty there and kind of sharing that story.
[00:14:02] And I feel like that was a real journey, just listening to you like, you know, understanding about the mental I health that you went through and the [00:14:10] subsequent support and how beneficial that was. And I think that. Could never be underestimated, kind of whether that is kind of, you know, through, through counseling, through therapy or, or through kind of a medical route that that bit is sometimes needed to get you to the next stage and, and to be able to move on.
[00:14:26] And then, and obviously then. Starting to look at that other bit of the curve, which is that science around being well, and you buy most of it is simple [00:14:35] and most of it on some level is intuitive, but that doesn't mean that we do it. Um, and, and I think that you, you know, and that kind of obviously is where, where we come from that.
[00:14:46] That knowledge is power, that sharing it with people and talking, talking to people about it can be a real gift to empower them as well and to experiment and, and exactly as you said, find what works. So just touching then on that first book, then [00:15:00] Wellbeing in the Primary School Classroom. So that was really kind of, I think it's subtitle, was it A Practical Guide to Teaching Happy.
[00:15:06] So you kind of took that stance that these skills, if you like, are teachable. Yeah, because I, I should actually point out that, um, in my first year of teaching when I was, um, went in with all of these kind of bold ambitions, I had [00:15:25] several times and moments where I thought, sod this. Like the actual reality of modern education primary schools is there's no time for.
[00:15:37] Wellbeing, it's all English and maths and we've gotta prepare them for SATs and all this kinda stuff. And so, you know, I had regular moments where I was like, this isn't for me. This isn't what I thought it was gonna be. And it was actually, [00:15:50] um, I used to have university on Fridays where I do my teacher training, and then I was in school four days a week and basically one, I became known as angry Adrian on my, uh, university course because I just rant and rave about.
[00:16:04] Everything that was wrong with our education system and how, why are we getting kids to do that? What a waste of time. And so I was known as angry Adrian. Secondly, a friend of mine called Lowy [00:16:15] lent me a book in Easter, um, of my first year teaching, and it was called Teaching Happiness and Wellbeing in Schools by Ian Morris, and he was a secondary teacher.
[00:16:25] You've probably got it in your bookshelf somewhere, and. It was just, I read it, I read it probably in two days. It was just like, oh my God, this is why I got into teaching. This is what I want to do in my school. And because [00:16:40] it's aimed at, at at secondary level, some of the ideas weren't, you know, I had to adapt them and tweak them, but it was so inspiring that it gave me ideas, and that was, I started to weave some of those ideas into my like mini happiness lessons.
[00:16:56] But basically. It was, what, six years, seven years into my teaching practice, I just kept searching for teaching happiness in [00:17:05] schools, in primary schools, and there just wasn't the equivalent book. And that's what led me to just think sodi, I'll write my own one based on my experiences and what I've read, teaching happiness in primary schools.
[00:17:17] But, you know, didn't want exactly the same title. It's, it's published by Bloomsbury who published, um, Ian Morris's book. But yeah, that, that is what the, the science of wellbeing, the science of happiness, positive psychology, all [00:17:30] these different terms, point to the fact that we can all learn to be happier.
[00:17:34] And that happiness comes from our habits, our behaviors, our actions, and that there is more happiness, more of our happiness within our control than we probably think there is. And that other things that we probably think have a big impact don't have as much bearing on our wellbeing as we probably think, um, based on.
[00:17:54] [00:17:55] Numerous studies. Um, one classic one is by Sonya Erky, who, you know, studied identical twins, separated at birth to challenge this long held belief that our wellbeings mostly determined by our genes, and that, you know, once we get out of childhood, there's not much we can do to change our, our levels of wellbeing.
[00:18:16] There's this theory called the setpoint Theory, which. [00:18:20] Certain, certain experiments show that, you know, if when good or bad things happen to us, our wellbeing might improve significantly. If, if something really big and good happens to us, maybe we get a promotion. One of the studies was looking at people that won the lottery.
[00:18:35] You know, your wellbeing spikes because, oh my God, I have Murray, uh, worry. Money worries, uh, you [00:18:45] know, I can do what I want. Freedom, autonomy. And then equally, people that had lost a limb due to an accident or injury, you know, big dip in their wellbeing. And then within three to six months, these researchers found that actually the lottery winners and the people that had had a limb amputated, they're well being returned back to what it was before those events.
[00:19:06] So this is why the set point theory was developed, like [00:19:10] good and bad stuff happens and then we bounce back to our previous levels of wellbeing. And so Sonya Luber me's research found that actually that set point theory, there's some truth to it, but actually we can, we can raise our, set our baseline basically that by changing some of our habits, our routines, the way we think we can actually improve our wellbeing in the long term.
[00:19:34] And [00:19:35] yeah, numerous other studies now have kind of backed that up. And so that's what is, I guess, driving my approach to, to education is we should be teaching these skills are as, if not more important than learning to read. Um, learning to calculate, like learning to basically take good care of ourselves.
[00:19:56] Each other and the world around us are fundamental skills that we [00:20:00] need to learn so that we can face the myriad of challenges that are gonna come our way. Future. Absolutely. Um, and I think I'm gonna come on to your, your kind of second book that you authored with eml, um, in a second. But I know that underpinning that the book, the A Little Guide for Teachers, teacher Wellbeing and Self-Care is this sense of agency that there are issues within, you know, that are systemic.
[00:20:24] We know that there [00:20:25] are issues in education that are beyond our control. Book that we do have a sense of agency and we do have that ability to control the controllables, as it were. And I really love that, that that kind of underpinned your second book. So if we could just move on then to discussing Yeah.
[00:20:40] That book, how did that come about and why did you think it was necessary? Yeah. So in wellbeing, the primary class, in the final chapter, it all about teacher wellbeing [00:20:50] and. The premise is one, every idea in wellbeing, the primary classroom, although it's looking at wellbeing through a a child's lens, it applies to us as adults.
[00:21:00] And in fact, one of the best ways to make any wellbeing teaching land with children is to model it, is to set a good example, practice what we preach. And so I was approached by sage probably a year after wellbeing. The primary [00:21:15] classroom had come out to say. We're doing this little guide series and there's gonna be books on behavior, SEN and we'd like you to write the one on teacher wellbeing.
[00:21:24] And I dunno, there's part of me, I, I didn't feel like I had a whole book in me about teacher wellbeing. You know, I put a lot of my ideas in that final chapter and I didn't wanna just rehash it and flesh it out so. When I wrote Wellbeing in the primary classroom, [00:21:40] every single chapter that I wrote, I got an expert in that field to read and sense check and make sure I wasn't making any, you know, wasn't misinterpreting any of the research evidence, et cetera.
[00:21:51] And Emma Kel had read my teacher Wellbeing chapter. She was the author, is the author of How to Survive in Teaching, which was out in, he came out just before my book. So [00:22:05] when Sage approached me, I was like, I'm gonna speak to Emma, see if she wants to co-author this because she's got a different perspective.
[00:22:12] She's a second, she's got secondary background. I've got primary. That was why we kind of co-wrote it. I kind of felt like I needed some other expertise and perspective. And so yeah, we, we sat down, uh, what was lovely about this book is short and sweet and it, [00:22:30] that was the biggest challenge, like each chapter.
[00:22:32] I think it's like 2000 words or, or less. And yeah, we, we just scoped out, we, we met up and we're like, what, what are the big themes, topics that we think are most relevant to teachers around their wellbeing? Um, things that they can focus on and control. Like, we can't change the, the system through this book, but what can we kind of influence and change?
[00:22:54] And [00:22:55] that's why we, we started with purpose. Chapter on purpose and values, like what is really important to you? Why did you get into this profession in the first place? Like what kind of a teacher do you want to be? What? What do you value? What's important? Because that, starting with that one, it's gonna help you choose a school and setting that is right for you.
[00:23:16] Because so many times I hear this, people think [00:23:20] about leaving teaching and then they change school and they're like, oh my God. Like I wish I'd done this 10 years ago. Like. Working in a school that is aligned with your values and your sense of purpose is like a huge game changer. And secondly, when you are driven by a core sense of purpose and strong values, you basically naturally increase your sense of autonomy and agency because when something really matters to [00:23:45] you and something's important, you think.
[00:23:47] So this, no, I'm not gonna do X, Y, and Z. I'm gonna do this instead because this is important. This is a better use of my time. You are more likely to assert yourself. Uh, all of these things are just inherently good for your mental health and wellbeing. Yeah, and agency's a massive, massive part of that as well.
[00:24:06] And one of the things we say in the book, we reference this TomTom advert, [00:24:10] which I love to share. And it says, you are not stuck in traffic. You are traffic. And so many times, me included and Emma, we blame the system and we, you know, the education system's broken without realizing we are part of that system.
[00:24:25] You know, I dunno how many hundred thousand odd teachers there are in, in the uk, but we make up the system. We are, there are more [00:24:35] teachers than are our off offset inspectors. There are more teachers than are our employees in the DFE. Like, we matter. And if we change. If we change our perspective, if we change our approach to work, if we work fewer hours and say, no, I'm gonna put these boundaries in place and what I can get done in this time is what I'm gonna do.
[00:24:54] And anything that can't get done in that time doesn't get done. You know, if we start to act and think [00:25:00] and behave like that, and we do it on a small scale, and then gradually has that ripple effect, then actually. The whole system changes, but we can't just blame the system because we've gotta recognize our part in it.
[00:25:13] And if we just keep going along with the status quo without challenging it, we have to point the finger at ourselves and take some responsibility for the fact that the system still isn't changing. [00:25:25] So yeah, those are kind of two key themes. It's not just about self-care, you know, diet, nutrition, exercise.
[00:25:30] It's, it's kind of like. What matters to you? What kind of teacher do you wanna be and, and how can you positively change the system in, in small ways? Like just start in your classroom, then build out to your school, and then build out to your local authority or mat, you know, and then just build from there basically.
[00:25:49] [00:25:50] Because that's my goal. Ultimate goal is to positively change the education system, at least in this country. Obviously it's still a long journey 'cause I'm 15 years in and hasn't changed much. But that's, that contributes to my sense of purpose. That's why I keep doing what I'm doing. 'cause it matters to me.
[00:26:08] And, you know, got two children who are in the education system, it's broadly [00:26:15] working for them. Often not, you know, and so. It's about their future as well. And not just my children, but other kids' futures too. Absolutely. It's a bit of a kind of quiet, quiet revolution. Maybe it's not so quiet. Maybe we don't need to be quiet, but I think that, you know, a bit of a grand swell of, of people starting to recognize that.
[00:26:34] And I use that phrase as well, I use it when teaching mindfulness. You know, we are the traffic. You complain as much as you like [00:26:40] about the traffic, but actually we are the traffic. And I think that. You, you, you're so right. When you kind of use that in the broader sense of we are the education system, um, I think it can be distilled down to we are the culture within our schools as well, and recognizing that we can kind of change those cultures within the classroom.
[00:26:59] Start there, start with that kind of control, the controllables and, and kind of, you know. [00:27:05] And and see where the impact is. So I love that. I love that you're kind of starting this revolution, Adrian. I think we all need angry Adrian T-shirts. Joint angry Adrian's quiet revolution. Um. So, yeah, and, and kind of the book, as you write say it does look at that kind of values and aligning yourself with the values of the school and that sense of purpose.
[00:27:28] And, and I think you touched on that when you [00:27:30] told your kind of background story, if you like, that you had a job where you got the bonuses, um, and, but lacked that purpose and how, how reminding yourself of that purpose can really. Help, um, and reminding yourself regularly of, of kind of why you're doing it and, and what you're doing it for.
[00:27:51] Although we did also mention earlier that then that has to be within a broader [00:27:55] system of a sense of value that, that the job is valued by. As well. So there's, there's lots of other themes within the book and I wonder whether we can just pick up on, um, a few that jumped out to me. I'm sure another reader would kind of pick other things.
[00:28:10] Just a really short few paragraphs you did on perfectionism. I think there are a lot of. Teachers or staff working in education who have that high sense of [00:28:20] perfectionism, constantly reflecting and reevaluating and you know, it's what we're taught to do. You know, we're learners, we are curious. That's what what kind of comes about.
[00:28:29] And you talk about the good enough and you actually refer to the good enough mother kind of theory. What are your thoughts and. Around the notion of being good enough. Yeah. So again, when I got into teaching, that was when it, there was still lesson gradings, [00:28:45] so, oh, you've just taught a good lesson, or you taught an outstanding lesson.
[00:28:48] It's just constant judgment and obviously the pinnacle is outstanding and it still is, you know, schools are still trying to be outstanding or even if changed the language. That's essentially we, we should be aiming for that. And so there's this sense that. Even 15 years in, you always feel like you're looking over your [00:29:10] shoulder.
[00:29:10] You're not quite trusted, and you could always be better. And so that feeds into this notion of perfectionism, like you're not quite. Polished yet you're not quite finished. You can always improve. You can always get better. And I think, I think what actually is at the heart of perfectionism with teachers is, broadly speaking, making some big assumptions and sweeping statements here, but the type of person that is [00:29:35] attracted to teaching one, we probably score highly on conscientiousness.
[00:29:40] Meaning they want to do a good job and they want to help others. So high on conscientiousness. Low on or lower on self. What's the word? Concern for self. So, high concern for others, but low concern for self. And what I mean is we are more outward focusing. I wanna [00:30:00] make a difference of children's lives, so I'm thinking less about what's in it for me and bonuses.
[00:30:05] Leave that behind. I really wanna help make a difference to children's lives. And then thirdly, teachers would probably score highly on. Wanting a sense of control, like teachers by their nature and my wife regularly con accuse me of this, are control freaks. Like we are, like we, [00:30:25] we, you know, it is my domains, my class, and this is how I wanna do things.
[00:30:29] And so when you feed all of that kind of natural tendencies into a system that constantly demands more, you've got a recipe for burnout right there. So you've got people that really want to do a good, you want, wanna work hard, care what other people think, have high concern for others, but low, lower concern for [00:30:50] themselves.
[00:30:51] Like to kind of be in control, like it's a recipe for like overwork. And I think that's part of unraveling that is we do need to, like, we're told to constantly be self-reflective. We do need to reflect on is this working for me and my family and my life outside of education? And often the answer's no.
[00:31:11] Like I've honestly spoken to so many teachers [00:31:15] where I've done sessions on teacher wellbeing. And one teacher said to me once, and she was clearly experienced teacher. She was like, you know, I get into school at 7:00 AM and then I work till six 30 in the evening and I, and it's just, I've always still got more to do.
[00:31:32] And she's like, and I don't want, I don't want to be working like that. I want to work few hours, but I don't know how. And I just think that's really. [00:31:40] Common. Of course, we're all, I think the average working week now, there was some statistic I read for teachers in the uk, something like 55 hours a week or give or take, which is, is far too much given that the nature of the job like is so intense when you're there.
[00:31:55] So yeah, like with this one particular teacher. I just said to her, because the big part of my training is just small things, consistently done. It's a phrase I borrow from [00:32:05] Professor thar Harvard Psychologist Science of Wellbeing Expert says the key to improve wellbeing is small things, consistently done.
[00:32:12] It's, I like it because it's realistic, it's bite size, it's manageable. Um, and I just said to her, I said, look, do you think you could. If you're getting into school at seven and, and you're still working till six 30, do you think if you [00:32:30] drew a line in the sand at 6:00 PM you stopped working at six, do you think there'd be a significant decline in the quality of your work?
[00:32:38] And she was like, no. And I said, why don't you start there then? Why don't you just put a line in the sand and say, I'm gonna get him at seven and I'm gonna stop working at six? And I said. Just see. See what happens, because my guess is there won't be a [00:32:55] significant drop in the quality of work. And I said, but what you've done there, if you do manage that, you've just regained in your working week over two hours, two and a half hours extra time in your five day working week.
[00:33:09] If I was to say at the beginning of this training, I'm gonna give you two and a half hours of extra time that you can do what you want with like, you'd probably be jumping up and down. I said, and for you, that's quite [00:33:20] manageable. And I said, but start there. And if there isn't a noticeable drop in your work.
[00:33:24] Then look at the 7:00 AM and just could you get in at seven 30 like and see if is there a significant drop in the quality of your work? And, and I said that's kind of where we need to begin. We need to just put some lines in the sand and just be like, I'm just gonna start here and I'm gonna end here and I'm just gonna see how much I can get done.
[00:33:44] The chances are [00:33:45] you're still gonna be, in fact, the the chances are you're actually probably gonna be a more effective teacher because if you take that half an hour and you just spend it sat at home in an armchair with a book and a cup of tea reading for half an hour instead of. I dunno, planning a worksheet on equivalent fractions, whatever it is that you're doing, you're probably gonna feel more rested for the next day when you're in front of your class.
[00:34:08] And so this is, [00:34:10] yeah, this is, we need to take this bigger picture. Like what kind of teacher do I want to be? Is how I'm living and working, enabling me to do that. If the answer is no, what small tweaks and changes can I make? So, yeah, that, um, I've forgotten what we started talking about. We started talking about perfectionism, but we've kind of led in Yeah.
[00:34:28] Two little bit of things there around managing workload and, you know, I, I'm always slightly [00:34:35] hesitant, not hesitant, talk about all the time, but addressing the issue of workload. 'cause again, it goes back to what we said. There are many systemic issues that like needed to be addressed around. Workload. But I suppose what you've described there is that kind of sense of urgency.
[00:34:50] Where can you make cuts? Yeah. I think this is the thing when you are perfectionist or you have perfectionist tendencies or all those other things I'm [00:35:00] listed, high conscious and conscientiousness, et cetera. Given the nature that the job that you can always do more, then. You are going to be working very long hours and that teacher working seven till six 30 feels like she has to in order to maintain high standards.
[00:35:16] And that was my going back to her and questioning, if you finished at six rather than six 30, do you think your standards are gonna suddenly drop? And her genuine answer was no. [00:35:25] Then. There's an obvious place to start. Just, just stop your work half an hour earlier and just build from there. And this is why sometimes we just, there's something called, um, Parkinson's law, which is the task will fill.
[00:35:42] This is me paraphrasing. A task will fill whatever time you allotted. So, and we can all relate to this. Let's say I've got [00:35:50] something that takes half an hour and I've got two hours to do it. I'm basically gonna use the whole two hours to complete that task because I'll start it and then I'll get distracted and I think, oh, I'll make myself a cup of tea.
[00:36:00] And then I do a little chip away a little bit more. And then a colleague will come in and I say, oh, how was your weekend? Because I've got, I've got plenty of time to do this 30 minute task. And then basically, oh God, end of my PPA, right? I better Bosch this out. And then I complete [00:36:15] it, and it's taken me two hours to do that 30 minute task.
[00:36:17] And so using Parkinson's law, we can actually just. Physically putting some time constraints like right, i I, this is, this should only take half an hour. I'm only gonna give myself half an hour. Or like the teacher said, I'm gonna start working at seven, I'm gonna finish at six rather than six 30. You've then gotta get your work done in that time.
[00:36:39] And [00:36:40] so I just think you can use little tools like that. Put in physical time restraints and just So I'm gonna start here. I'm gonna end here and I'm just gonna. Do as much as I can in that time. And then as importantly, if not more, so that time where I'm not working, I'm gonna do something that is nourishing for me, that's gonna reenergize me, that's either gonna help me relax or increase my sense [00:37:05] of joy, perspective, whatever.
[00:37:07] So that when I go to work the next day, I've got more in the tank. Yeah, that's, that's my approach to kind of teacher wellbeing because the workload issue is, I feel it's always gonna be there. Therefore, it comes to us to put those physical time constraints and be like, this is how much time I'm prepared to give to my working week, and the rest of the time [00:37:30] is my time.
[00:37:31] And that. Me time is super important because that allows me to be the most effective teacher I can be for those kids, because when I'm tired, burnt out, stressed out, I'm a less effective teacher. I'm less patient, less kind. I forget stuff more easily, et cetera. That my perspective on work generally all comes back to that period of poor mental health because when I came [00:37:55] out of that period, one of the key reflections, and this is literally.
[00:38:01] Part of my core now is that nothing, no role in life, no job. Not even being a parent is worth you sacrificing your physical and mental health. Nothing. There's no point to doing that. I think the most important role I have in my life right now is being a dad. [00:38:20] I've got two sons. They're six and nine. But like, does it make sense to sacrifice my physical and mental health to look after them?
[00:38:27] No, because. One, it's not certainly a good example. I'm literally showing them, if you wanna look after kids, your own kids in the future, you have to literally become mentally and physically unwell. Well, that's a stupid example to set. And secondly, we know [00:38:45] from research that the single biggest determinant of a child wellbeing is the mental health of their primary caregiver.
[00:38:51] So if I want my children to grow up to be well and healthy and happy. The healthy and happy I am, the greater the chance of that for them as well. So yeah, my approach to teaching is there is the teaching's super important, very purposeful, but it makes no sense whatsoever to [00:39:10] sacrifice your own physical, mental wellbeing to do your job.
[00:39:14] It doesn't make sense. You won't be able to do it in the long run. Setting a poor example to kids. You're not gonna enjoy it. What's the point? That's my approach to everything I do now, even teach happy, which I'm massively passionate about. There's times where I'm like doing too much and it's affecting me.
[00:39:32] That's like, I'm not enjoying this as much, or [00:39:35] I feel really stressed. I'm not able to, you know, I deliver some training. I think, actually I didn't do that that well today 'cause I'm shattered or. You know, there's no point to doing that I'd. I'd rather do less work and do it to a much higher standard than say yes to everything.
[00:39:51] Shortchange people. I think it's having that kind of self-awareness though, isn't it? It's that ability to kind of recognize those signs, recognize [00:40:00] when, when everything's coming too much, and then also having enough self-compassion or concern or, or, or whatever that is that we just said, that teachers inevitably really low at, um, to then be able to put those measures in place.
[00:40:13] And you know, as you were talking through about kind of Parkinson's law. I kind of can see it in my own behaviors back in my teaching career where I get then obsessed about a PowerPoint [00:40:25] alignment. Yeah. So I created a lesson. There's a PowerPoint that goes with it. It's all differentiated. They've all got new talent like the lesson's done.
[00:40:32] But actually what I'm now going to do is spend. Half an hour, an hour realigning all the bullet points. And I don't like the way that looks. And you know, there's something about that then if you've got the time and if that's what you get excited about, that, that's okay. Mm-hmm. Um, but other times where it was done out of a, a [00:40:50] sense of.
[00:40:51] You know, driven by anxiety or perfectionism or, or kind of control. And, and I suppose that, you know, just like yourself, my advice would always be again, about what does done look like? Where, where is your 'cause that bar will keep raising. And I had a, I had a friend and we used to check in on each other about where our bars were set that day.
[00:41:11] Yeah. Like, because if that bar is too high, [00:41:15] then you are always gonna kind of keep on. Running towards it. And sometimes that buy to be more realistic, doesn't it? It does. And sorry, that brings me back to good enough, which is it's from a psycho child and family psychotherapist, Donald Wincott, who basically saw Mothers MA mainly 'cause they are still, even today the, the most common primary caregiver.
[00:41:37] He would see mothers coming to his clinic [00:41:40] burnt out. Stressed, anxious, depressed because they were trying to be perfect mothers. They were trying to cater for their child's every need and women, and it wasn't sustainable. And so he coined this expression The Good Enough mother, which is essentially you can't cater for your child's every need.
[00:41:59] In fact, it's not desirable to do so because when you inevitably let your child [00:42:05] down or they realize they're not. You know you're not every beck and call. They realize and understand things that are fundamental to their development. One, that they are separate from you, you are a separate entity. And two, that they have to at times develop their own self-soothing and their own independence, which is part of their development as a child, and eventually, hopefully an independent autonomous adult.[00:42:30]
[00:42:30] And so this is what he was saying, that actually not being perfect is what your child needs and it's what you need. And so I coined that. Expression for the good enough teacher, like it's the same. It's childcare, it's it's caring for children, educating them. We just need to aim to be good enough, which is what children will benefit from.
[00:42:52] Good enough is sustainable. It means you're not gonna burn [00:42:55] out because you're not trying to be perfect. You recognize when you need to rest and recover. You recognize when you are doing too much and ultimately it's realistic. It's setting a good example for. The children that we're teaching to see my teacher's not perfect.
[00:43:08] They make mistakes, but they're good enough. You know, they're, they're good teachers. They care about me. Today's lesson was a bit boring, a bit pants, but you know, last week we did some amazing science. You know, [00:43:20] it's on balance. They are a good teacher and I've been lucky to have them. Absolutely. That kind of segues in beautifully to the, the kind of work that you're doing currently, doesn't it as well, I think, around parent wellbeing.
[00:43:33] Um, I wonder whether you, could you just tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, so I've just been asked more and more by schools, and this is particularly kind of post pandemic. You [00:43:45] know, the research backs this up that children are struggling more with their wellbeing and mental health post pandemic than pre pandemic.
[00:43:52] And one of the things that school leaders have been approaching me for said, you know, we are noticing our children are struggling more. They're kind of less resilient, getting more, more. Overwhelmed easily with stuff that other children in the past would've just taken a stride. And we are recognizing that actually parents are [00:44:10] a big source of, of that.
[00:44:12] And not like blaming the parents, but we are recognizing that parents need more support. And so I've done workshops in my own school, but in others around parental kind of wellbeing. And it's really just, again, taking the science of wellbeing. Sharing the fact that there is this strong link between a parent's mental health and their own child's wellbeing and just getting them to, [00:44:35] to realize and recognize that taking care of yourself is one of the best things you can do for your child.
[00:44:40] And actually not trying to your cater for your child's every need or maybe rationalizing the number of clubs and commitments you've got going on, taking some of that family stress and pressure away. Is one of the best things you can do. Sharing the research about how getting outside and being physically active [00:45:00] in a natural setting, you don't even have to, doesn't have to cost money, you know, and, and there will be resistance.
[00:45:06] I. We try and get, we've got a dog, we've got two boys, and my wife and I are like, right, let's go take dash for a walk. Where are we going? Tri Park, which is this beautiful woodland, hilly because there's no, they can't kick a ball there 'cause it's, it's not really that kind of a park. There's no swings and playground there.
[00:45:24] It's not that kind [00:45:25] of a park. And there's always resistance and it's literally there's a bit of a fight, but. 10 times outta 10 without a fail. Once we get there and we're on the walk, the boys make up their own games. They find these sticks and you know, they pretend to be old people with big walking sticks and then they climb some, they always have a good time and like it's things like that.
[00:45:43] Like don't, just because there's resistance give up and be like, oh, it's not worth the hassle, like. We persevere because we know it's [00:45:50] good for them, it's good for us and it's good bonding time. So yeah, again, family wellbeing, parent wellbeing, A lot of it is common sense, but not necessarily common action.
[00:46:01] And so I always share the research, like this study showed that this, you know, can be the, the impact and the effect of this little tweak or change in intervention. And that is often enough to change some people's behavior. And I think actually. [00:46:15] We are gonna change. One of the things I share is the research behind Rewind, the negativity bias and this simple activity called three good Things or what went well.
[00:46:24] You know, the research, one of the studies by Professor Martin Seligman showed that. When adults wrote down three things that went well for them that day and why for a week, there was gradual but significant improvements over their work in their wellbeing over a three and six [00:46:40] month period. And actually the people that showed the biggest improvement over that six month period were the ones that after the experiment ended, so one week experiment to write three good things down every day.
[00:46:51] They carried on doing it after the experiment ended. And the people that did it the longest showed the biggest improvements in their wellbeing. And I shared that research with parents and families, and one of the things, one of the pieces of feedback I get regularly is like, [00:47:05] actually we've, we've changed our dinner times.
[00:47:08] Like we, we sit down, we put out some food and we don't write stuff down, but we just go around the table and just share one good thing from our day. Something that made us laugh, something that was fun, something we enjoyed doing, and it's just changed the way we enjoy our mealtimes together. And so it's just little practical things like that.
[00:47:26] It, it changes how I, uh, pick up my boys on [00:47:30] the school run rather than what, how do you have a good day? Yeah. What was your day like? Good. You know, you get nothing, but when you say, tell me something funny that happened today. Oh, there was a time, you know, it suddenly, it's, it's way more engaging. They're having to kind of think about their day, but they're focusing on something positive.
[00:47:49] So yeah, it's, it's something I'm really. Interested in like researching more [00:47:55] this kind of family wellbeing, parent wellbeing. And I did a, a webinar recently with Susie Robbins, who's a friend of mine. She used to work in education. She now is a behavior consultant. She works with families around supporting, you know, their children's behavior in the home.
[00:48:13] And we did a webinar around parent. Wellbeing. The, the webinar is called Happier Homes [00:48:20] Ideas for Being a Happier Parent, raising Happier Children. And yeah, basically from that webinar and from our, our kind of work and research so far, we've decided to, we're gonna try and write a book together. So yesterday we met up, we started to draft a, a book proposal.
[00:48:34] And it's just really exciting me. It's a kind of evolution of the work I've done and I'm doing in schools around children's wellbeing and. Teacher wellbeing. Yeah. And it's just really [00:48:45] exciting. It's, it's kind of given me a, a renewed feeling of inspiration to kind of read more research more and get writing again.
[00:48:52] Brilliant. And you read it in another book, is that right? Yeah. So for Route Ledge. It's called questions. It's a, another series of books and it's like questions on and again, whole load of topics, questions on behavior on SCND and ours is questions on teacher wellbeing. And it's [00:49:10] specifically for ecs, early career teachers.
[00:49:13] So I'm editing it with Kel, who I wrote a little guide to teacher wellbeing self care with. And the lovely thing is we are not having to write it, uh, but we've got a whole, a real diverse range of. Educators that are writing various chapters on how to, um, manage workload and how to manage behavior, like all of the things that [00:49:35] affect our wellbeing and these various kind of experts in these fields.
[00:49:39] And it's, yeah, the chapters are starting to come in, so Emma and I are having to start to read and, and co-edit them. And it's just really fascinating reading other perspectives. I'm definitely taking notes. I read the chapter on, um, wellbeing and behavior in the classroom, and yeah, I've got some, I've got some tips, which is really good [00:50:00] that I'm gonna be taking back to my own teaching practice.
[00:50:03] So yeah, it's lovely to, to learn from. The experience and knowledge of others, which is what again, makes my work. And I'm sure your work really interesting. Absolutely. And I think that ECT conversation's really important to have, isn't it? I think we should be doing more around in teach training and kind of, you know, arming new teachers or new to be teachers.
[00:50:23] Um, I think I was reading some research [00:50:25] that the attrition point for new teachers is around after the two year period that almost that ECT. Period or the newly qualified period that there's a lot of support. But when that's removed out tends to be a bit of a crunch time. Yeah, I absolutely think that the more work we can do around equipping people entering the profession.
[00:50:46] 'cause that's what we want, isn't it? You know, you and I are both very passionate about [00:50:50] working in education. You know, I. 26 years and, and, and loved kind of my experience in education. We won't people to say it. So I think that sounds just a brilliant book that you're working on there around ECTs. Adrian, I could talk, I've got loads more questions here about all the other hats, but I'm very conscious of time, so I wonder whether, just a couple of questions to finish with.
[00:51:09] Firstly, what are some of your non-negotiables, what are some of your non-negotiable things [00:51:15] that you do to look after? Wellbeing. So I always make sure I walk lots so every day. I mean that's one of the main benefits of having a dog. But even if I've had a day where I've got like few steps, I will make sure I take my dog out, let lasting at night, you know?
[00:51:33] So like walking is one of my non-negotiables. I always make sure, and it's not like I'm trying to get [00:51:40] 10,000 steps. It's not even that, it's, I just sitting down less and moving more is one of my non-negotiables. Meditate every day is one of my non-negotiables. So one of the first things I did this morning, get the boys set up breakfast, take myself off to my bedroom and do a little headspace meditation and.
[00:52:00] Diet like the more I've read about gut health and the link between [00:52:05] gut health and mental health is just so profound. And just again, small tweaks that I've made my own diet, I've just noticed a difference. Less bloating, more energy, sleeping better at night. And I guess that's the last one is sleep. I just, nothing gets in the way now of a good night's sleep.
[00:52:23] Like, even like social events, I, I still like go out and see friends, but literally the thought when someone says, [00:52:30] oh, should we meet up, go for dinner in London? 'cause I don't live in London. I live like 40 minutes away. It's always, yeah. And then I'm like, oh, probably get, get to bed like midnight 1:00 AM Like, that's the downside.
[00:52:42] Like that's how important sleep is to me now. So yeah, those are my non-negotiables moving my body regularly. Meditating every day, eating a healthy, balanced diet, and I still like to indulge, like I had [00:52:55] some Nutella pancakes this mornings. You know, it's not all about being perfect and getting a good night's sleep.
[00:53:00] Just making sure, you know, I'm not stupid about it. All of the things that are good for my wellbeing, I try and take a pragmatic and relaxed approach to, I'm not like really anal, like, oh my God, I need to, because that's unhelpful too. It all comes back to balance, and I just think I look over my week and on balance, I have [00:53:20] taken good care of myself this week.
[00:53:21] That's what I just try and aim to do. I think it goes back to what you said earlier, doesn't it? It's that small things, consistently adding them in. As often as you can is where, where you know where you're gonna see the most impact, and knowing when to measure them up as well, when we need to consider more of them.
[00:53:38] So our final question then we always ask our guests the same final question in the spirit of compassion then, if you were to [00:53:45] offer our listeners a suggestion of one kind thing that they could do for themselves today, what would it be? Hmm. I would say. So I've been for a walk this morning and it's a lovely sunny day here.
[00:54:02] I dunno what it's like where everyone else is, but there was part of my dog walk where I literally just stopped and I turned towards the sunshine and I [00:54:10] closed my eyes and I just took 10 breaths, just breathed in, breathed out 10 times whilst facing the sun. It was literally just bathing because we haven't seen it for so long, and I just thought, I'm just gonna appreciate this.
[00:54:24] So. That's what I would recommend, like go for a little walk if the sun is shining, even if it's not, if it's hidden behind clouds, just face to walk towards the sun. Close your [00:54:35] eyes and just take 10 breaths and then carry on and just see if it makes a difference. Gorgeous little piece of advice and I could feel it.
[00:54:44] I could feel the sun on my face even though the sun's now disappeared. Um, but as you, you spoke about it there, lovely Adrian. Thank you. It's been an absolute joy, absolute pleasure. You'll have to come back when you absolutely been published and you can tell us all about how they've landed and, [00:55:00] and what you are up to next in your little revolution that, um, you've started.
[00:55:04] So thank you so much. Thanks Julie. Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed Han to you.