Wintersteel Part 3 - Cradle - Will Wight - Progression Fantasy Book - Fantasy Book

In this episode of The SideQuest Book Club Podcast, Slava and Jonathan—joined by Casey, JT, and Spenser— continued to break down Wintersteel from Will Wight’s Cradle series. The guys explore character dynamics, relationships, and major themes of identity, growth, and progression fantasy. The conversation highlights foreshadowing, power dynamics, hubris, and how literacy, wealth, and opportunity shape advancement in the Cradle universe. We also examine key characters, such as Daiji and Eithan, discussing their motivations and the narrative choices that drive the story.
 
(00:00) Introduction to The SideQuest Book Club Podcast (feel free to skip to the next chapter, as we talk about costumes that can't be seen on screen)
(09:32) Further Exploring Wintersteel
(17:54) Character Dynamics & Relationships
(29:47) Themes of Identity & Growth
(34:28) Foreshadowing & Key Revelations
(35:22) Character Dynamics & Plot Devices
(40:44) Defining Progression Fantasy
(44:01) Character Growth & Power Dynamics
(45:44) The Role of Hubris in Fantasy
(56:57) Literacy & Character Development
(01:02:58) Wealth, Power & Opportunity
(01:14:18) Final Thoughts & Future Expectations

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

SLAVA (00:00.344)
coming to you from the endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves.

Good morning, SideQuesters. Welcome back to the SideQuest Book Club Podcast. We are going through Wintersteel part three today, guest episode. Happy to have Spencer and Casey and JT and your favorite, Slava, back on the game. Game recognized game. How's everybody doing? What are you wearing?

I'm obviously dressed up as you asked me to. You guys put in the link, you know, come in, you know, in a costume. I was like, hey, I'll dress up like Aethan.

The wizard pimp is in the house.

Wizard wizard

CASEY (01:03.042)
do i look like i own a kimono?

You know what this is? This is...Athen...when he was a jade.

I can see that.

well

And you're not actually smoking. I want you to really smoke or.

CASEY (01:17.23)
You want me to smoke inside you want me to put back up in the walls? No, I'm not doing that.

Bye!

Who want you to put tobacco up on the walls so that you have to paint three times before you can sell the house.

and got clean out the air conditioning and you got clean out all the vents and everything. Yeah, I'm not doing that. We know what.

What is this character Casey?

CASEY (01:38.562)
Well, I originally got it for a cosplay con and it's a Shadow Wizard money gang. I don't.

Spencer Slava, do know?

Apparently I'm out of the loop

No clue

Okay.

CASEY (01:52.75)
I'll drop the link here and chat. me a moment.

JT, where are you at? alright, JT left at-

beings.

there's Ethan. Hello.

Sacred Artists

JONATHAN (02:02.958)
I he looks more like a thin than you do

And that was I'm dressed up as a thing from when he was throwing the match. From when he was throwing the match, when he asked Reagan Shen to give him all those clothes.

Right. Yeah. Okay.

JONATHAN (02:19.596)
And so he just wore all the clothes at once.

yeah, and the pipe that was spewing out his name from the tip and the rings and the stupid jewelry, everything to make him ridiculous. I'm missing the monocle. I know I'm missing the monocle. I don't own a monocle.

You won't defeat me this time. I'll have to. were some fun battles, that's for sure.

he knows how to do spectra

so much. I dressed up as a fat man in a little shirt. It's also very wrinkled because I knew that'd on Slava's case. The shirt basically doesn't fit me. So.

CASEY (03:03.182)
Don't stretch too hard.

I won't, I don't want to exert myself and pop a button. It's not, this isn't a side quest after dark.

Let's not crack a screen or something here.

That's right. That's right.

I went ahead and just dressed up as myself. know it's really popular look so I know everyone wanted to see it again so was like, just dressed as myself.

JONATHAN (03:22.008)
everybody shame spencer

JONATHAN (03:30.456)
gets famous on the internet for Project Hail Mary and comes back with like, hey everybody, I'm back. I look like a tech mogul.

Why stop what's obviously working?

Exactly. Thank you.

Spencer, I think your choice of colors is perfect.

Shut up.

SPENSER (03:48.306)
Thank you. Thank you. I worked very hard on the Navy blue here.

better than, so I didn't think this was actually going to show up in time. I ordered this two weeks before and didn't ship until about five days before from China. And yeah, I thought, they'll be good at making their own clothing. Cause this is a Chinese, I think a Hanfu inspired thing. It's not particularly well-made or made of good material. I'm sure a costume. yeah, definitely.

you bought it from the homeland?

JONATHAN (04:17.98)
man, you got scammed internationally.

it's not scamming. I just needed a costume. didn't pay much for it. actually where, but yeah, it went from Shanghai to Alaska. Back to Shanghai, Japan to Indiana in the space of two days.

Did they forget to add an extra thank you note?

I know why it went back to Shanghai from Alaska. assume it was just, well, we got to the North American continent, but they decided it'd be easier to put on this other shipment rather than.

Or it could be some sort of weird shipping issue where they're like okay we need to things to you have arrived in america at least three days before they get put in say whatever shipping request form is needed so we need to make sure it's there before it's actually there.

JONATHAN (05:18.006)
Yeah.

Either way, it's fine.

I love the dedication. It's just the fashion's like two dynasties out of fashion.

yeah, this is very early traditional Chinese.

Very late 1400s, yes.

JT (05:34.286)
They've gone through some weird dynasties, weird fashion choices. There was that one where all the Chinese people had to shave the front half of their head, which was actually imposed on them by a foreign government.

Are we surprised?

No.

Yeah. And they're like, yeah, this is, this is like, yeah, you're going to be wearing the sign of your servitude for us on your head. And that's for quite a while.

Hundreds of years even.

JT (06:09.432)
think that was the Ching Dynasty.

You can look it up and let us know. All right, Casey, let's watch this video you got here. I don't you who's by

The original song there was by Joey that's with Joey with two wise by the way is some rap slash trap music guy but the spawned off a whole meme from the intro and some of the lines you throughout the song so.

Let's get into it.

SLAVA (06:42.208)
We love casting spells. This song is sponsored by the Shadow Government.

A shadow government?

Yeah, where do you think Shadow Wizards get their governance?

I don't know.

It's NUKER RADIO.

JT (07:03.47)
I don't know if you need to watch

Is this a Levi's commercial?

I'm not sure. The song itself wasn't nearly as popular as the meme that swung off of it.

Nuke-ing is now the

Got it.

JT (07:16.536)
This is it's not the artist that made it. It's the producer

Yeah, it's not, again, the meme spawned off of the lines at the beginning and then a couple other ones. The song itself is not important.

I'm out.

JONATHAN (07:33.57)
Make them wipe me down. them wipe me down. It's a weird fetish. I'm always shocked that like things blow up on the... Oh it was a cross! Jesus!

like me.

SPENSER (07:58.986)
everything

you

Shit

the shadow government over here man this is the best production value I've seen in a minute

I feel like I'm taking drugs at the same time as having a stroke.

JONATHAN (08:16.558)
What's with the little white blocks every so often? Oh, okay. Is he cold?

That's how you know it's good music.

SLAVA (08:27.712)
Yeah.

Now he's turning into a shadow.

Hold on.

Yeah.

boy.

SLAVA (08:36.014)
you

Wow, this was a...

That was something.

That

That was one of the videos of all time. Yeah

CASEY (08:45.614)
Yeah, that's what I would say.

I was a better man for not s-

What did you say, Slux?

I was a better man when I did not see that.

I was gonna say, I remember being in middle school making videos like that, but.

CASEY (09:02.136)
Again, did warn you guys that the meme was not exactly the song itself. It was just spawned off by a couple lines from it.

Yeah, literally like 10 seconds at the intro.

It comes, that video comes from the tradition of less is more, but more is even more.

Okay. Every flashing light possible.

JT (09:25.59)
Yeah, put as much as you can in there. Let's just.

Screw the people of epilepsy.

Yeah. Enjoy this. Enjoy this music.

I think that gave me epilepsy.

SPENSER (09:36.654)
Yeah, they didn't put the warning up there that said this has you know flashing sequences. I cause seizures

I don't think he could have made I'm just gonna I don't think he could afford legal

No, I agree.

Probably.

So, alright Casey, you're part of the Wizard Pimp gang. That's cool. Respect or something.

CASEY (09:57.944)
Alright, I'm not even gonna try arguing with you guys anymore about this.

Yeah. Maybe I'll.

The Shadow Pimp Guy.

I was originally going to have like two like knuckle duster things that say fireball, but.

That'd been fun.

SLAVA (10:15.95)
Those are stuck in Indiana. Couldn't find it.

Couldn't find it on Etsy or Amazon or anything like that.

Mafia gangsters meet, you know, medieval wizardry and like that's how you cast your spells. You have to swap out brass knuckles. Fire spell.

Apparently there was a game that just got released where you have to chant the actual spell into your mic in order to cast it at other people.

I'm not going to be good at that game. sounds like a lot of members.

SLAVA (10:41.102)
No.

But yes, you can accidentally cast on yourself if you just like save a spell name. It's like, oh, I've got fireball on my.

Babe, what are you doing? I'm about to cast fireb- Awww. And you're dead.

I cast The Void.

I'm gonna take this hat off because it does not feel comfortable.

CASEY (11:04.706)
week.

I see that you wore your servitude on your head for us. Thank you.

Yeah.

It goes all the way back.

Wow

JT (11:17.442)
Disgraceful. Any medieval Chinese person would die before cutting their hair off.

Shame on your family.

All right, Slava, bring it home for us.

bring it home. you stated, we are in Wintersteel, part 3, this is the 8th book in the Cradle series. It continues the Uncrowned King Tournament where the outcome holds high stakes for the world's power balance and potential rampage of the Dread Gods. Linden becomes a key figure for Northstriders interest. Yeren advances, Aethon advances to Archlord.

showcasing his IC revelation and the immediate aftermath of the tournament we see monarchs engaging in battles, fury ascending and we find out that Lindon's hometown is being besieged or about to be besieged by the drag gods so everybody makes their way there that's where we end. Fun and exciting times in the world of Cradle.

CASEY (12:22.434)
pretty crazy just how every single thing just starts happening simultaneously within the last 50 pages.

Yep. Just keeping it real.

Sanderland's version of Willowite.

The white lance? That probably sounds too much like lynching.

Yeah, I don't like-

JONATHAN (12:41.226)
Never mind. Never mind.

You tried.

Sometimes drying is just not good enough.

Do or do not, there is no try.

say it's white shown his power in writing.

CASEY (13:00.942)
level, like some sort of Dragon Ball character.

There we go, that's what I meant.

FBA.

17 episodes of Spear

Continue for five minutes.

JONATHAN (13:12.95)
As a kid it was great and then you're like is he ever gonna do the spear bomb?

Cool, he's got yellow hair now.

He bleached it. It intimidates the enemies. So little fun, fun little story. When I was in, I don't know, sixth grade or something like that, we convinced my parents to let us dye our hair or like bleach our hair to be super saiyan. So that's what I did, but I didn't stop at the hair. I also did the eyebrows.

He frosted the tips.

CASEY (13:43.219)
my god.

No, please tell me you didn't. yeah.

still.

I somewhere I'll try to find them mid episode here.

post that.

SPENSER (13:53.442)
Yeah, I need to see that.

There's no shame every single kid has probably tried to do the the Kamehameha at some point in their life

and half of them never even watched the show.

There are a couple of very large decals or guess hand drawn paintings of Dragon Ball Z characters in my neighbor's garage. It's really cool.

Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. So don't. You should always side quest with friends. Hit that subscribe button and join the party.

CASEY (14:31.426)
Well, he's searching for a embarrassing photo from his childhood. What you guys think about how they all acted once they got split up into separate teams or groups? It was interesting. I thought how you could see the void that would have been filled by one of the other characters interacting there. And it never happened because there wasn't anyone there to pull a character out of, say, a thought loop that he was having like.

Yeah, and there was no one to pull her back from being extremely violent against the the Dread God cultists when they showed up and there's no one to pull. Well, I guess there was technically Charity, not charity. Grace occurred. Grace, who pulled him out of his self recursive. I need to get stronger. I need to get stronger. I need to get stronger. Mental loop. I was interesting how you could see the.

like the void that another character should have filled to enhance that scene. And without them, it was very changed.

This already kind of leads into one of my hot takes. So I'm going to, I'm going to bust into that right now. I, it specifically has to do with Yaron's blood shadow, that whole segment, which I think was a really cool idea, but I think it also shows one of Will White's kind of weakest links here. One of his weakest things as a writer.

Shut your mouth.

JT (16:07.338)
No. Brother. So, urine's bloodshot. The whole thing is, it's, it's a version of her except that it's more honest. And I like that idea, but Yaron is the wrong character to have that because she's already brutally honest as a character. And so the only honesty they get, she's being honest with her, her feelings about Lyndon. It's like, that's not.

Keep going. Go off.

JT (16:36.792)
That's not compelling. That's high school melodrama.

That's not why we read this book.

It feels very much like, uh, not to, to specifically try and quote Rick and Morty, but, uh, a very, uh, a singular joke in there. Maybe remember this Crocky bot, which was, oh, so you're equal. You're unfeeling, uh, half unfeeling robot, half equally unfeeling reptile. And it's like, yes, this is what a Crocky bot is. like, it feels like urine. That's that's urine in her blood shadow. You're.

but.

JT (17:13.46)
one half brutal, honest, cutting person and another half equally brutal, but also red.

Also read, can't leave that out.

yeah, that's important to our care.

It was blaren for me.

blood urine.

JT (17:28.556)
Which was, what was her name? The Winter Sage's name for the Bloodshed.

What are sages? Suggestions?

CASEY (17:36.768)
had some interesting interactions with Yeren through the entire book.

Yeah, she was just hell bent on being right as opposed to actually winning, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think that was, that was a good segment, because she's obviously being, she's kind of cut up, but I'm Tis, she's the sword person, about losing her, were they lovers or were they, she was obviously interested in the sword sage and she's seeing Yaren through that lens. It's like, you have to be the successor of the sword sage and do everything he did.

not allowing Yaren to be her own person. I like that aspect.

You mean, because it feels like real life?

JT (18:22.668)
Yeah. Who would. Sure. It's a good style of writing. It feels authentic and real. It feels like something that would actually happen.

someone who was actually mourning after the loss of a loved one would project that loved one's image onto say that loved one's child.

Well, I mean, they were engaged, the sword sage and the winter sage. So, and he put his wedding on hold to try to help Yeren who then, well, she didn't get him killed, but he got killed in the midst of it. So, you know, I feel like she's got a little bit of validation in terms of being like upset. I don't know why I air quotes that. She actually is upset.

Right.

CASEY (19:08.142)
She's very upset. She says she's not upset, but she's lying.

Where do we see that they are engaged? I don't remember reading that.

the book. Bye.

Were they engaged?

On the first read through I didn't catch that and when Jonathan brought it up I think in episode one, well part one, I was taken aback. I had to go back through and try to find it and I think it's like a throwaway sentence. Yeah, it's a throwaway sentence where it says that they were betrothed or some nonsense.

JONATHAN (19:37.398)
Yeah, it's a single sentence.

Okay, so there's, so it could have just been like a one sided love affair where she liked him, but he was like, I don't really care that much. I'm going to go train this chick.

I mean, if they're engaged, I feel like...

Betrothed would be somewhat different.

well. True.

JONATHAN (19:57.698)
What do you think the word betrothed means?

promised by other people. Engaged means I promised myself to you and you to me, and we're going to be together. Betrothed means somebody else controlled this.

a political marriage.

Okay, I'm okay. All right, well, I'll give it to you. don't fully see it. I think it adds more drama if he was trying to save his protege or his mentee and then died. I think it adds more conflict.

And based how the winter sage feels about the sword sage, don't know, feel like there's more... like, yeah, it's more mutual. They seem to love each other based on what we read about both of them.

CASEY (20:43.148)
mutual

JT (20:52.716)
Well, I mean, did he talk about the winter sage at all in that, like the first chapter of the book where it actually goes through and looking at his, the scene of his death, right?

Well, that was mostly focused on the fact that he died by the Heaven's Glory school, but, you know.

We don't see enough of him in particular to ever get a real reading on his character.

Agreed.

Yeah.

CASEY (21:20.718)
we get one chapter.

That's why I came to a different conclusion where she was kind of that when the winter sage was more of a pining after the sword sage and the sword sage was not that he hated her, but that he was less interested in romance in general.

you

Well, you were trying to simp over me. I studied the blade.

I studied the blind.

JONATHAN (21:43.626)
Yes That's exactly how he felt good catch guys you read through the lines you got what will was trying to

Will White's joke again?

We don't get any of her character revealed until this book, right? And he never mentions her. And it's this one line that they're engaged with, whatever. And even when we first meet her, the only way we know that she's connected to the Sage, the Sword Sage, is that she has the same sword as him. And Yaren's like, she must be connected to him in some way. And if I'm remembering correctly, she thought...

in that moment or we are told that she thought that she was a student of the sage or another one of a group of these type of sages so we never get any inkling that they were romantically involved until that one line which I missed.

It was a very missable line. She does seem like she pines after it.

SLAVA (22:47.424)
Right, so I'm agreeing with JT without saying that directly, but I'm agreeing with JT. It doesn't seem like he cared as much about their engagement as she did, based on what's given to us in the books.

Man, no respect for mutual affection because we didn't hear it out of his own mouth. Okay, cool. I see what you guys are saying and disagree.

Jonathan's an optimist, that's why.

I was trying to subtly get Slava to read Romanticie without him actually knowing it. This is just the first seedling of that because it's one line that you have to catch and I'm just like subconsciously planting it in his noggin.

Are you guys gonna read some Sarah J Maass after this? yeah.

SPENSER (23:33.005)
baby

No.

Let's go!

Jonathan's trying to do some inception over there on Slava. Bookception.

I will be absent from those episodes.

JONATHAN (23:43.704)
book-ception? Contraception? No. Conception. That's what I wanted to say.

Gotcha, Sepsis.

Words are... words.

when the paws is too pregnant.

Shit!

JONATHAN (24:00.462)
Well played sir. Yeah, but Jonathan was frothing in the mouth with excitement. He's like we have to read this book. And so I went and researched it and I went to some YouTube summaries of it. And then I read the Goodreads review and the blurb and all that stuff and I was like no, no this is horrible. This is an annoying girl with the hots for a dragon? That seems no.

That just seems dumb. But he keeps bringing it up.

frothing at the mouth. Hmm, yes, that seems like me. I often froth.

It's the first time I was about this book

JONATHAN (24:43.978)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate the support.

least he has the courage to admit.

So, where these pictures?

I can't find him. There's only one photo actually.

Super Saiyan picture.

SPENSER (24:56.462)
He can't find them

no, have no shame. Everything is public on my Facebook. You can go look. There's a lot of embarrassing things there.

Okay, just place your, put your picture into an AI generator and have it turn your hair yellow.

All right, Jeremy, bring us back into the story.

Back to Will White and the story of winter still. So I think that Will White, something that he does is that he relies on the fact that he's treating this a lot like a, like a television series, like an anime cartoon. Facts. And drawing you into it enough to make you insert things that aren't necessarily there. I think he's getting you to fill in the extra details that he's not putting.

JT (25:44.088)
So with the Yeren blood shadow section, he's getting you to think, this is the, her, she's being true to herself, but like not being honest. And it's coming out in the blood shadow and that's a cool development. He doesn't show too much of that. I think that if he had set it up better, he would have had Yeren do things like push Lyndon away during that time where he asked her to dinner, but she was all for it.

She was being very obvious that she's into him. And so it feels off when you say, it's her, honest. It's like, but is it, is, is not much difference here.

I'm going to back my brother up on this one a little bit. I definitely think that they could have done things in the previous book or so to indicate that say her blood shadow could evolve into this, that it was reflecting her personality and not just the, the feral blood shadow archetype. We only really get an expansion to the blood shows character. Sorry, Ruby's character. I'm pretty sure he just named this.

bloodshed ruby because he was tired of writing urine's bloodshed. Every single time. He's like this is too many letters. Down to four.

I don't doubt it.

JONATHAN (27:08.514)
It's very possible.

But it and then he wrote wrote the bloodshed out of the story entirely. He's like, I'm done.

SLAVA (27:20.77)
I the one thing I'll push back on is Yaren's liking of Lyndon. I picked up on her struggling with her feelings, I think two books back, maybe one book back. She had what I called affections for Lyndon. And at that point in time, I was like, I'm not sure if she likes him, likes him, or is this just sisterly affections? And even those for her are sort of foreign given her upbringing.

but I thought there was a hint of romantic affections for him. So to me, when she was like, yep, let's go, before he even got, you know, finished his sentence or spiel about them going out, she's like, yeah, sure, let's go to dinner. I'm for it. So that didn't feel off to me, but the rest of it, I agree 100%.

it didn't feel off to me either. it just a poor, I would say basis for then having the blood shadow be this, it's Yaron, but she's finally on. I think it would be, it would have been better if she was a little bit more, let's say damaged by her past experiences. I don't want to get close to somebody because the blood shadow in me might hurt them. That feels like a good foundation for.

I'm safe. You okay?

JT (28:36.568)
doing that segment of you learning to accept that part of herself and grow as a person.

JT (28:46.326)
Absolutely. She's absolutely acting exactly as I would expect a teen girl to act with her first crush. In fact, both of them are acting exactly the way that I would expect.

Awkward.

Thank you for spelling that out.

Silence.

You

SPENSER (29:07.778)
Yeah, I thought the blood shadow immediately being interested in Lynden, like it felt like romantically that definitely felt like it was too quick. But but also like because he I feel like Will is almost trying to portray Ruby as now this totally independent character from year and even though technically they are sort of the same. It just felt, yeah, definitely a little bit weird.

and almost like too soon in a sense for Ruby to just be like super into Lynden. But like it makes sense. But yeah, I know. It just kind of came off a little bit weird to me. also part of the plot.

I felt the entire bloodshatter thing. Every single time that they said, you're not Yeren. Have any of you guys heard of persona before?

You're going to need to specify a little bit because that's just a word. Is it a story?

Sona is a series of games that came out and. One of the big overarching things is in the world of cognition or whatever, which they can go into and try to accomplish things. You have your shadow selves. a you, but all of their like hidden personality traits and everything like that is exposed and they're completely on.

JONATHAN (30:12.984)
Then no.

CASEY (30:37.044)
everything. And if you deny your shadow self, it will try to kill you.

So they took Jungian psychology and added it into the story.

Pretty much. Pretty much.

They kind of, yeah. And I feel like that's what Will White is doing. He's relying on you having kind of seen these things before and go, I understand what he's trying to get at. And then he goes, cool. Well, as long as I can get you to think that, then I don't actually have to write most of that. I'll just get you to think that that's what I'm doing and then you'll fill in the details in your mind.

like most modern anime slash maker writers. He's just rolling on troops.

JT (31:19.64)
think that, that's why these books are so short. it's a sizable book, but they go by really quickly because there's just not as much like per page word wise. The word count is low.

favorite author

ragging on him all day, it's fine.

I love Will White. The thing is that his creativity is fantastic. for...

pulls out a scroll, except for the things I'm about to go over.

JT (31:48.886)
You critique the way that you critique the things that you love. OK.

No, definitely the- no, not always. Sometimes you critique the things that you hate.

I don't want the...

Will, JT hates you and he wants you to know it.

JT's just giving him tough love, you know, he loves him and he wants Will to succeed as an author and grow so he's just giving him

JONATHAN (32:09.698)
Yeah, cause Will's not succeeding yet. He had a million dollars Kickstarter. He's starting an animated series. People basically pulled him out of retirement for Cradle being like, we want more Cradle. And he's like, if you get me over a million dollars, I'll write you a short story novel. All set in Cradle. And people were like, boom, let's do it.

Tell me you have a man crush in Will White without telling me you have a man crush in Will White.

Yeah, JT.

no, Jonathan, yeah.

Yeah, John is the one that's got the man crush

CASEY (32:37.208)
You're the one-

I'm coming at this objectively.

Sure, the man that's like waiting for every time. did see Will White had another big update?

part of the podcast.

You

SPENSER (32:51.438)
I'm

1.2 million. Sorry. I didn't say it correctly. 1.2 million.

see he even knows the exact amount. He definitely knows more.

I to

He DM'd Will White and Will White answered him and now it's all gone to his head.

JT (33:11.116)
He's already slid into those DMs.

Although you can, I do have all the books just sitting right here.

Yeah, in the exclusive hard copy.

From the Kickstarter.

my goodness

JT (33:24.782)
You're not helping your case.

Except

He's so excited when his buttons popped off.

I

You

JONATHAN (33:36.27)
Did see that?

Slava, we're gonna talk after this.

you

Is that, is that wheel like that?

big are you? That bat's tiny.

JONATHAN (33:50.431)
Is that a fat joke, Casey?

No, that was a hype.

That was a hand joke.

I took it as a fact. I thought it was funnier that way.

Go to

JONATHAN (34:02.219)
Anyway.

Little shirt, little bat.

Little shirt, little bat, little shoes. I've started practicing the, nevermind. It's not gonna go well. goodness. So where are these hot takes that I heard from, well Slava was badgering me in the last two episodes about Yaron's literacy and character development, Linden's void icon and his evolving identity, tournament pullout politics, things of that nature.

You

CASEY (34:33.13)
I I thought that Linden's void icon being related to him being unsold was a neat little wraparound to the beginning of the story. do have concerns, however, because the issue with an ever hungry person trying to reach higher heights, what happens when he reaches the highest height? What's he going to consume next? What's going on?

There. Himself.

There we go, they're roboros.

What? Sorry. What? I really wanted to make a Marilyn Manson show.

You can.

JT (35:05.998)
You talk about consuming yourself.

What?

you

What?

Have you not heard that before?

CASEY (35:18.286)
Don't enlighten them.

I'm in.

If you know you know. I definitely doesn't know.

Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

I mean, you can just edit this out, right, Sloth?

SLAVA (35:34.157)
cut.

That we're leaving that in. That's pretty good. Good.

He could.

As an explanation, cut this if you want to Slavo, there was a, it was a rumor that went around, not just nationally, but internationally from what I've heard that Marilyn Manson removed one of his ribs so he could filet himself.

I'm not familiar with that seven letter word, but

SLAVA (35:58.963)
Wow, so you are also illiterate just like you are in the

Zio, what else? You would remove your ribs so you could bend down far enough to... A little bit of self pleasure.

Give himself the old Jack Reacher with his mouth.

Yeah, sure. That was, that was every and everybody knew about it. You can go to like any random school with like people when I was growing up.

JONATHAN (36:24.846)
Clearly not everyone knew about it, because Spencer and I are just like... What? Can you just like tell me what you mean? I understand.

What?

SPENSER (36:31.662)
I was just-

I saw a podcast of a Greek guy that was like, yeah, I heard about that.

Somehow

I was a sheltered kid growing up.

See, I was as well, and I still knew about that.

JT (36:44.534)
Yeah, it's just, it gets places, man. It's just, one of those dumb rumors that had no basis in facts, but.

And he encouraged this, funny part. I believe he encouraged it with like jokes, the sides, you know, talk about, yeah, missing a rebel. Yeah, yeah, don't worry about that.

Anyways, enough of a... that was a fun side quest. Don't put that in the video.

Bring us back here, Spence. Yeren's Literacy or something. Or, what's his... Thank you.

Linden can't- urine can't read.

SPENSER (37:19.864)
I agree with Casey. really liked how Lyndon's void icon tied back to him being unsold. Yeah, I just thought that was a really cool, neat little tie into the beginning and looking forward to see where it goes from here. Now I know I've already read the whole series, but I had to reread this book because I just don't remember details very well. So, so as always, which actually makes it fun to reread it again.

um but yeah but like so i agree with casey i thought that was pretty cool slava what do think about that

I never picked up on it until it was mentioned this episode. think it's a nice tie up, but because I only am hearing it right now and didn't pick up on it at all, I don't know if I could add anything that is of value to the conversation, but yeah, it's a decent tie up. Nice bow, if you will.

What did you think of his odd, what was it? It was the phrase he used to understand it. it sort of felt like an overlord.

Remind us of the phrase.

JT (38:28.11)
It I think he said I am the end and when he said that that's when his icon appeared Lyndon like was consuming the wandering Titan and say he Was just in his own mind and then suddenly was I am the end and the void icon appears He becomes a sage

I thought that was way after he tried to consume that. Yeah. So the wandering Titan thing was before the, the final round even started. And that was him trying to get his overlord revelation and trying to understand hunger Madra, you know, to help with his arm. And that was when he re realized, crap, the Titans going for my home. He's going back home, which is also where it was revealed.

Is it?

JT (39:04.462)
I'm gonna look up.

CASEY (39:15.416)
Dun dun dun, the Dreadbeats home is Sacred Valley, which might explain its weird properties.

Do you mean Dread Gods?

Dread, dread gods. Well, I mean, the dread beasts come from the dread gods. So yeah, I suppose it would be their home as well. But yes, that the dread gods home is sacred Valley.

mean that's not entirely true, but you won't find that out yet.

sorry i'm just dealing with these one book at a time you're the one who's read ahead

SPENSER (39:41.998)
You

SPENSER (39:46.636)
did notice some foreshadowing in this book from things that do get revealed later on. And obviously the first time I would have had no idea. You can't, but it's really cool to go back and read and be like, he was dropping hints, you know, all throughout the books. And in this one, there was mention of something to do with...

You don't, you can't.

SPENSER (40:14.114)
the monarchs and the dread gods and I was like, okay, I see where you're like now that I because I've read book 12 and have seen some of the revelations and I'm seeing some of these things tie in together and it was just pretty cool. Like so props to Will White for doing some great foreshadowing.

as good authors do.

do. As good authors do.

We'll expect your apology now, JT.

No.

SPENSER (40:43.061)
straight up now

extract.

I didn't apologize for anything. I meant what I said and I said what I meant.

and elephants write 100%.

Can we talk a bit about how the Abedin guy who came back? Was it the hound? thought it was like one of the hounds. was one of the...

JONATHAN (40:58.072)
Hound.

JONATHAN (41:03.788)
Y'all the hound.

Okay. Yeah, he's curing of the hounds.

The of the hounds. Did the curing of the hounds is the guy who showed up. I feel like he acts like a mix between an a-hole genie that twists your wishes and the middle manager who has just enough power over you to be a douche about it. What not going to follow up on that?

Is there more to that? It sounded like...

I mean, I felt like it summarized it pretty well, but anyone else have any interpretations of that? Because he got kind of just shows up, establishes himself at the end of the last book. And then we just see him briefly at the end for the most part, giving you on the choice. yes. Who are you going to kill with this? Choose it now. You can't save it. I didn't mention that last part, but you still have to.

JONATHAN (41:54.744)
Follow it. Penance.

He is what we call a plot device. Kind of, yeah.

You mean like, A-

SPENSER (42:04.056)
I Aethon's more of a main character than Kieran, but I can see how Kieran is a plot device. But he also definitely has, yep, middle manager vibes where he has a little bit of power and he's going to...

manager vibes.

I like that a lot.

Yeah, that was definitely a good description there, Casey. But yeah, I feel like he has that and he's just exerting his power. But also the monarchs definitely fight amongst each other like children. I can definitely see him, Kieran, just trying to, you know, do what he can to, I don't know, have them play nice together.

JONATHAN (42:48.706)
Well, you made it this far. Rate the show.

Why not go a step further? It helps more than you think.

SLAVA (43:03.342)
We meet the Abadons, the court here and there throughout the books and I've always viewed them as little bit of a kind of douchey characters. They're often themselves. They have no regard for the lives they affect with whatever political machinations or self-serving machinations that they are a part of. So it kind of seems part and parcel that he would be a douchey middle management type of guy.

I mean, he is essentially a plot device because he's tying back into, I think, Maciel who said, I'm going to, accelerate things on cradle. he's trying to get some extra manpower because they're currently in a conflict. So, and they actually mentioned it, that at some point in this book, they go, yeah, we were going to punish that one, underlord who opened the,

the labyrinth, the door to the labyrinth, except that no, even if he had left that door open for years, it shouldn't have caused the effect of the dread gods that it did. Because Machiel, if you remember, in a short scene, accelerated things and intentionally woke up the dread gods. He poked them, he edited the world to give them more energy. Get up, you lazy beast.

I think it ties back into that where he's like, okay, yeah, hey, yeah, Dreg God's coming. You guys gonna, you know, this end here? Haha. But if, unless he's exactly like what you would expect somebody that was he's done, he's doing a dirty job. He's had to descend to a lower world and interact with people there. And he's as fully disgusted with that as anybody else would be if they lived in some sort of heavenly realm.

Now it felt to me like he was on the same power level almost as the monarchs, based on how they felt that they could try and actually kill him at certain points in their conversations.

JONATHAN (45:03.522)
Well, they're also very arrogant as a group.

Are very arrogant, but you would also remember they all, you know, you look at their other monarchs and say, you know, I could kill him, but it would be very difficult. Yeah, he's a dangerous opponent and a close fight. He knows that that's why he's got me in this room with him. Sort of thing. Actually assessing danger, whereas with the, you know, the Abedin messenger, they're like this a hole.

I'm gonna kill him. I don't know. I think the pure hubris of like being a monarch and then thinking like this divine being who came down and being like, I could take him. That's a level of hubris that like is unseen elsewhere in the book, in my opinion.

This is a wusha. Challenging the heavens is sort of the deal.

True. That's like the theme of basically every Chinese progression fantasy novel.

JONATHAN (46:04.61)
Well then China has a lot of hubris. yeah. Do you feel the hubris in your your robe that you're wearing?

Yeah, that's where the flicking the sleeves come from. I'm done with this fool.

SPENSER (46:20.482)
Very dramatic.

I can see that in a period drama or something.

chinese period drama a dynasty drama is what they used to call them you'll laugh about that one later

Gratitude.

You got to put your hands in the sleeve.

JT (46:36.822)
No no, this is how they do it.

Tell me about how they do it. I'll tell you how they do it.

I've watched neither of you.

been to China before.

CASEY (46:52.162)
I'm sorry. I don't think watery tarts giving out swords is any method for a system of governance.

There we go. There it is.

All right, let's wrap this back.

Rebs is back.

speaking of the genre, so this is progression fantasy. And I've been thinking a little bit in my spare time about what makes good progression in progression fantasy. Cause in most books, the growth of the character as a character is the point. But in progression fantasy, it's like the physical growth of the actual, power, the strength, the whatever.

JT (47:37.422)
of the character is the important factor in making the book exciting. And I think I've come up with a couple of things that I think describe what makes progression good or what like when a progression is good.

I a progression is good when you see struggle first. And then, so I actually, I'll start with this. You see confusion and frustration at the current level. Then you see struggle trying to get over that. And also just before that, cause I'm kind of piecing this together as I go, is the decision.

to try to make a difference in your own life. And then the achievement of that thing. I think we talked in one of the previous episodes that a couple of the books, it's like, Lyndon goes up two power levels. And it's like, there's no struggle there. It's challenging. But the other thing that good progression has is a properly contrasted bad guy. Because you can't have...

You know, you can tell me your power level 9000. It's like cool That doesn't mean anything if I'd watch to kill a bunny rabbit like cool I can also kill a bunny rabbit and my power level 9000 the contrast of the bad guy is also important because otherwise you don't have a context which is why when The hound comes down and the monarchs can't take him even collectively you understand his power level I mentioned this in ghost water that we see that pride a Kura pride is a big badass

because everyone who is sitting there with him doesn't want to mess with him.

JT (49:24.302)
wait, you mean harmony.

Harmony, sorry, Harmony. Yeah, thank you.

Pride's the one who has to eat his pride in his...

Harmony, but nobody wants to mess with him and they're all very powerful as well so that juxtaposition of their power levels against his is like I don't want to mess with him even though he has a backing of like the reigning family so long answer long

I would say that, what was it, progression fantasy. The progression of the character should match the progression of the power, sort of like how Will White has done it in this book where you can only advance when you've had your revelation about yourself. think that's a to sync up the character's self-progression with his power progression. A lot of times in a story, this will be some mental revelation in the midst of a

JONATHAN (50:07.372)
I do like that.

CASEY (50:20.686)
crucial fight or something and that will give them the drive they need to pull through. And in progression fantasy books, it's often just, ah, yes, I meditated into a cave for a thousand years and now I have reached the nascent soul.

CASEY (50:38.536)
not really entertaining for me that's like okay and what did you learn nothing i just got

Spencer, you got any thoughts on what makes progression fantasy good? the progression in progression fantasy?

Probably not, just because this is the only series of books that I've actually read that is progression fantasy.

Stormlight's progression fantasy.

Okay, well...

CASEY (51:04.642)
Controversial tech.

That's a hot take.

I see that, Jonathan, that definitely makes sense.

It's not controversial, it's true.

JONATHAN (51:14.7)
New oath, new power, progression.

Yeah, and it definitely ties in with character development as well. Like in Stormlight, your character development is basically how you advance with your actual like powers, physical abilities. Like you have to come to terms with things about yourself in order to be able to move on and to gain the next power level or physical power level. And I mean, I can kind of see that here in Will's books, you know, where maybe not up to like

Well, yeah, no, think and even when you're at the gold level and into the Lord levels, like there are character revelations that you have to have before you can kind of advance. So I do like that. But but beyond that, I guess I don't really have anything extra to to add into what you guys have already shared. I do like the fact also, it's kind of like. It's almost it reminds me a little bit of like video games to where this is almost like a video game in book form, kind of as well.

Yeah. Where it's like you gather resources and, you know, to try to unlock, you know, to the next level of power or the next big weapon. And it's like the more you level up, the better weapons you get and the more power, cooler powers you can get. So so I really do like that. But but yeah, other than that, I think Bill does a great job of of writing this as a progression fantasy novel.

Slava?

SLAVA (52:44.846)
The power ups have to be parallel to your character arc. Unless you want to show a person who's getting power but continues to be mature and that leads to a downfall or whatever. But if the character doesn't advance as a person,

As he gets new powers and new revelation, a lot that won't wouldn't work. But I'm sure there's books out there that explain that poorly or show that poorly where a person reading and going, I don't see how this person is growing. He's getting this power. seems too easy. He's really the same bland character or X adjective character throughout the story. And yet he's advancing or she's advancing. So I think both have to be shown.

in a clear way for it to be a good progression fantasy.

Because without the character growth, it's just a power fantasy.

Yeah.

JT (53:50.348)
And that's what a lot of the Chinese ones do boil down to is the more of a power fantasy. They do have external themes, but those themes tend to be more external and encompassing like the whole world and the world building rather than an internal experience that the character is having. So I came up with four. I've been reading a bunch of these kinds of Chinese novels again, in between our podcasts.

Thought about this. what you brought up is sort of similar to some of the things that I brought up. One, I think it has to be a fairly sizable upgrade. You can't have like a trivial increase in power. Yes. Feels kind of off at that point. And you can't make it too big compared to the sort of other things involved because then it feels unearned. Right. Two, I call it uniqueness or exclusivity. The more powerful it is, especially

I said.

JT (54:47.48)
The more you'll want it to be something that it's like, it's, it's mine alone. If somebody else can just copy and you're going to experience the same thing, it doesn't feel as impactful. third was, said risk and costs inherent in the obtaining or caused by obtaining it. So either it takes a lot of risk or a lot of giving up something in order to obtain whatever power up you're getting, or the act of obtaining it in itself will

cause you to go to have a lot of risk or have to experience some loss. then finally, length and complexity of the journey to obtain it. In the Chinese novels, the complexity of obtaining it is all in the journey, but not experienced internally within the character. But in a good, I think in Will White's book, that's where his revelations, his internal revelations come from. You have to understand yourself.

There's your, I have to experience inner growth to understand and get this power up, which is I think a really good addition. While I really liked his Underlord, Overlord, Archlord power up section.

Does anybody, yeah, so a quick tangent on that. Has anyone done any research on like where he came up with these like power delineation levels, power level delineation?

Are you asking because you don't know or asking because you do know?

JONATHAN (56:13.334)
I don't know, no, but it does provoke a thought in me that goes, you know, you've got...

Iron.

Sorry, you got unsold copper, iron, jade, right? Gold, sorry, low gold, high gold, true gold, underlord, lord, overlord, although lord is not really.

think it's technically Underlord, Overlord, Archlord.

Thank you. That's what it is. Yeah. There's there's tears. I'm just like thinking about it because of your question here. So I was just wondering if anybody had done any.

JT (56:51.15)
He's just adapted what is generally like the basic Chinese one

is this normal? yeah, yeah, okay.

It's kind of, I mean, they're all very customized. They're all customized to whatever universe that that particular author wants to do. And he definitely added his own flair with the internal revelation being used as an important factor. But like in the Chinese ones, you'll go, what was it? It's your chi condensation, which is like you're a normal human, but you can use magic powers and you know, very weak ones.

Not

JT (57:26.826)
And it's like you're condensing this like gaseous form and then eventually you've condensed enough of it that it has to go liquid and then we call that foundation establishment and it like in this big moment you condense the gaseous chi in your body into a liquid and it forms inside of this like organ which I don't think really exists called a danteon but it's somewhere like inside your like below your stomach. Something weird.

Like your shoulder plexus

And

mean that would line up with martial arts as well. We learned it. Yeah, yeah, okay.

It's all connected. And then from that, you, it's still a liquid. You keep adding to the liquid until eventually it becomes a solid. And that's called core formation, which is like the biggest of the most important ones. Cause after this, you can kind of make more mistakes and fix them later. But if you make a mistake at the beginning, you've wrecked yourself and you might have to rebuild yourself from the ground up if you want it to become more strong, more powerful.

CASEY (58:29.486)
like how they were talking about your lifelines, you you might damage your lifeline if you do this or.

Yeah, it comes from the Chinese novels again. So you go up to you form your core into a soul. So it's like a soul that's separate from you and it can leave your body and like walk around. But generally speaking, you'll want to keep it in a body that's called nascent soul. And then above that, it's up every author will do it differently. So he's done the exact same thing he called. He kind of took away the spiritual soul aspect of it. But other than that,

very similar where each level just gives you one. yeah. You've, you've become generally stronger. And also, don't think he mentions it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the very beginning of the book, he's looking at the sage and the sage mentions that, man, it's been a long time since I felt mortal. And you go, yeah. Did Will White ever mention that people at some point become immortal doing this?

Just assume that you know or notice

Immortal, no, but age slower, yes. To the point where I think it is just assumed immortality.

JT (59:43.15)
Because that is the whole goal in the Chinese novels, is the pursuit of true immortality.

He introduces it in Unsold with the little Heaven's Glory school guy who looks like a child. Right.

Well, I thought, I thought his thing was that he was attempting to do that by using some weird method.

did, but by attempting it means that it's like available in the world, right?

Yeah. It's, but it's just defaults. The further up you go, the slower you age and still the longer your lifespan becomes until eventually you hit immortal, which I think in Will White's book is Sage and Harold's at that point, anything past that you are functionally immortal.

JONATHAN (01:00:26.156)
Well, I think Monarch is also immortal.

That's what I mean. Like anything past Sage and Harold.

sure. Okay. Yeah. But I mean, I also think Archlord is immortal. I can't prove that.

That he doesn't define them as well.

I think we get any like exact confirmations on the age of any of the overlords or something like that. Lyndon says, yeah, this underlord is much older than I am, but.

JONATHAN (01:00:57.513)
no, no.

JONATHAN (01:01:02.38)
Right. It's just general facts, general things. But I will say that the... you were just talking about something, was just trying to...

power levels. yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just general, general descriptions and things like that. But I will say that, and we, you, you mentioned this earlier is like, it's one line. Will is good at describing things that are just a single line. that in rereads, you can go, he actually mentioned this way early on. and I wouldn't even declare it foreshadowing. It's just like.

he understands that covering world building doesn't need to be an encyclopedia dump. It should just be like, yeah, this thing, and then keeps moving forward.

I think, I think that sort of world building does rely on what Jeremy was saying before about the assumption of certain tropes or ideas if they're, you're familiar with it because I, I couldn't remember anything about that. the immortality thing I did sort of assume since, what was it? Malice has been around for so long yet. There's gotta be immortality something going.

but I didn't know for sure because he never specified anything along those lines.

JONATHAN (01:02:21.422)
Mm-hmm.

And you certainly never specify at which point it's assumed you're immortal.

He takes a slightly different tact from the Chinese ones because actually is this is his books are his books written in. Reliable narrator or unreliable narrator.

I don't know if that's ever described, but I believe based on what we see that it's reliable narrator because I don't know of many times when he does a gotcha with any sort of red herrings that I can think of.

Because he, I like the Chinese ones are what I like to call a reliable narrator, but not really. Or let's say backwards. They're backwards compatible.

JONATHAN (01:03:06.702)
reliably unreliable.

JONATHAN (01:03:12.44)
Okay.

or no, no, sorry. They're forwards compatible narrator. So what I mean is their narrator is reliable at the time, but also will contradict the past narrative.

Take them out.

but it's just assumed that he's always telling the truth at the moment that you're hearing it because they'll say, yes, this is like up the, this thing is true. And they'll give you information that the main character doesn't know just so that you, the reader can know it. Yep. But then 50 chapters down the line, he'll give you additional information that he probably didn't have because he hadn't made it up at that point. Cause there, I think they make it up as they go along.

And so he just decides, well, I want to contradict what the narrator from earlier said. So I'm just going to do that.

SPENSER (01:04:06.254)
classic.

say, it was, it was another hidden truth deeper and you just didn't see it.

Let's go down deeper into your cultivation to understand the depths of

I guess the narrator from before was correct, but the narrator now is more correct.

I like more correct. That's fun. When do I get to be more correct?

CASEY (01:04:35.458)
Well, some people are more correct than others.

People with thanks wizard pimp.

more comfortable shirts.

should probably invest in those. That's on me. So let's dive into some more hot takes here. Slava is deeply grounded in the fact that Yaron's illiteracy is a problem for this story. And I'm not.

No, not for the story. I think for the story. It's fine. The fact that she is illiterate in world critique I find like I just find reprehensible that nobody Nobody in her life ever said hey now I know we're going to the end of the sacred arts or you need to advance or you need to be strong in this world you also need to learn how to read because if you're gonna get to the end of the sacred arts and not read not be able to read

SLAVA (01:05:34.472)
I... Bucks of crap out of me.

She gets strong enough, she has people that can read for her.

got people for that.

Actually, true.

She reaches monarch why would she bother needing to read just get a just get one of my heralds three.

JONATHAN (01:05:51.211)
there

No, I get that, to me it just, I don't know why it boggles me or boggles my mind, but not one person in her early, and she's still young, but in her early development has thought that reading would be essential to her advancement.

I think it's a it's a very not interesting point, but rather is a very accurate statement that you can't read because of a the way she was raised B. She was like from a peasant family or something, right? She she wasn't exactly super rich. And then the bloodshadow came and she didn't have any parents and that I don't think the sword sage ever put any. He believed that the sword was mightier than.

Correct.

JONATHAN (01:06:43.48)
Also correct.

said why would why would he bother a teacher he's teaching her the sword

That's my argument. Thank you, Casey.

No, I understand your arguments. I'm not disagreeing with your arguments specifically. I'm saying my critique in world is he should have cared. I know why he didn't care and I know why she didn't care meaning Aaron. I'm saying that they should have cared.

So you're just like the winter.

JONATHAN (01:07:14.126)
Listen, but he doesn't-

Yes, yes, yes

Page 133, she says, it's a basic skill. I'll have to see if we have any literacy tests like the foundation compound. It says, will drive me insane if I see you advance to Overlord before you learn to read.

her and I

All right.

JONATHAN (01:07:39.532)
Are you also betrothed to the sword sage? Or were you? Rest in peace.

love and the sword sage said sit down the labyrinth

Sitting in the lab.

C-C-U-T-T-I-

I'm T-T. No. I was like, T-U-T-T. Cutting. Cutting around.

SLAVA (01:07:57.006)
Cutting.

Tudding.

Slava and the sword sage, totting around.

He and I had a tryst back in college, that's all. I'm serious.

JONATHAN (01:08:11.816)
Mm, a tryst. Nice.

Very quaint.

I too enjoy putting Y instead of I for my words.

JONATHAN (01:08:26.423)
So, Yaron's literacy doesn't bother anybody but Slava. Yeah.

No, I agree with I agree with Slava I I was I was surprised that she didn't know how to read

Lava likes urine

JONATHAN (01:08:37.441)
What's that Spencer? You got muted. I don't know what happened.

I don't know, I can hear them just fine. think maybe you've got some, you're right.

I didn't mute him quick enough. Or I mean the camera, the microphone. Anyway, I'm a little power hungry.

I see that and maybe you're maybe you're a monarch secretly just.

Yes, I've been waiting for my community to finally recognize my royalty.

SPENSER (01:08:59.864)
Yeah.

The

Slava, I'm talking to you.

But Yaron should have definitely have learned to read earlier. mean, do you not, how do you not, how do you advance without learning how to read? Like, don't you have to read things in order to?

Think about the world. Think about it.

CASEY (01:09:18.017)
This isn't exactly a modern day.

Yeah.

It's not modern day. They're basically living in huts. They happen to have magical powers, but they're still agriculture for the most part. Do people in agriculture learn how to read? Not right away.

And if anything, it's kind of odd that so many people do know how to read.

the mortal lives. Yarin came from a cult family. Her parents worshiped the blood phoenix.

CASEY (01:09:44.662)
No? Wait, did the-

Now they were killed by the blood phoenix. They were killed by the blood.

But you missed the story then. They were killed by the blood phoenix because they were dabbling in the powers of the blood phoenix.

So they knew how to read.

Not necessarily. The faith of Red Sage or the Sage of Red Faith could have come and just shown them things. You don't have to know how to read to learn. This is again, my point. You don't have to know how to read to learn how to throw a punch or to cut your arm open to give blood to the blood phoenix and then learn its powers. In fact, no reading required.

CASEY (01:10:18.392)
Probably better if you don't know how to read so you don't know how to find any dissenting knowledge as to what you have been told.

I think people are up in arms enough that it doesn't matter if you know how to read for that. But I like that you support my point. We'll let it slide.

Is that the royal way?

gracious.

Because that makes when you're wearing the Emperor's new clothes.

JONATHAN (01:10:43.65)
That's a different outfit. I can't show that on camera.

I think Jeremy to your point about about how many people are you know know how to read is surprising a lot of the characters that we have interacted with are either royal or associated with the royalty in some way we haven't interacted a lot with peasant character.

Correct.

Yeah. I wonder if the, any of the, how were they called the sand viper clan? They know how to Probably not. Probably not. the, yeah, the sand viper people probably not. Why would you?

Yep. Yep.

CASEY (01:11:23.275)
Unnecessary. Just swing spear better.

and lock up more slaves and put them in the mines.

Yeah

Dude.

I feel like this actually kind of leads into one of my questions here. Do so there was a character I think his name is Kailin. Yes, he mentions at some point that he was poor and so the students with the more money the where their parents were able to invest in them better. They advanced faster and farther than he was able to. But then we also see Lyndon who

SPENSER (01:12:00.802)
basically comes from nothing and he works his butt off to advance and become more powerful than everybody else. Like that's that's one of his goals. So my question is, do people with more power and money have more of an advantage or an opportunity in life to advance faster? Like that's a theme that's kind of touched on here and there a little bit throughout these books.

One of them is my shadow.

SPENSER (01:12:29.774)
But I'm curious as to what your guys' thoughts are on that.

I say absolutely yes. Yes. But there's a yes, yes, yeah. the, characters who live their lives in luxury also don't tend to be as hungry as Lyndon is for advancement. and that's like the same in real life as well. I think people who grew up in a, a good home with enough don't generally have this like, need to make money.

I need to take more risks because they're not used to doing that, but the people at the bottom are, and if you give them the opportunity, they often will take the bills, the business, those big risks and become, you know, make the big gains, the huge gains.

or die from it.

Yeah, that's the risk.

SLAVA (01:13:24.118)
So this goes to what you do with your resources. If you have a lot of resources and you still have drive, you will achieve things faster because you already have a leg up. If you have nothing, you start from zero and you have zero drive, you'll just be there forever. But if you have very little and you have a lot of drive, even more drive than the guy with more stuff,

you might make leaps and bounds just because of the effort you put into what you need to do to advance as a sacred artist to be specific here so

Right. But then there is another layer of morality to take with what was it? Callan's argument about why he took the the Dread God's aura into himself or Dread God Madra and channeled that because it's a whole cult worshiping these beasts that destroy everything around them. The question then becomes, you know, they advanced faster than I.

I had no choice but to take Dread God Madra into me and achieve things faster than them because of that, which there's always a choice that I believe it sort of goes into. the argument that we had ontological versus utilitarian ethics almost where the choice in his mind was, do I become stronger, slower than others or do I become stronger faster than others by using this?

without understanding or caring rather about the implications of joining a cult that worships beasts that destroy the world. He is trying to frame it as I had to do this because otherwise I would not be able to achieve what I have without realizing that A, Lyndon is an example of someone who didn't, he had even less than that other guy and he still managed to get to where he is at.

JT (01:15:27.822)
But the thing about Linden, Linden has achieved what he has achieved because he's been bankrolled by the Aurelius Foundation.

But he wouldn't have achieved that if he hadn't taken the risks at the very beginning of the story that led up

That was to my point from I think before an earlier podcast is that's the balance that you have to strike. He's gained a lot from being under the Aurelius name and getting access to those resources and Ethan continuously doing things to advance him and Yaron.

Question then is what did Kalin risk in order to get the power that he had? Because if he had essentially signed over his soul to the Dread God cult, it's not quite a risk when you know you're being given this power. It's an easy path to power. It's sort of like cheating the system in a way, how they do it, where they're just borrowing the power from these demon things.

That still has a cost. It's not just handing you power. You still have to jump through a bunch of hoops.

JT (01:16:42.786)
And it's the, it's an easier, quicker, messier method. But like he didn't, it's not like he was also given this opportunity that Lyndon was. And the, the, so here's the thing with Lyndon, right? Is what we have already seen what Lyndon would do if he didn't have Aethon. He wouldn't have gone outside. He would have spent his life in Sacred Valley and he would have died. We saw that when Suriel at the

in the first book simulated, here's what your life would have been like before. that he did make go far beyond what most people would have expected of him in sacred Valley, which shows his drive, but he did not choose to leave until surreal comes and shows, here's the possibilities. And then gives them a marble and that marble becomes something that attracts the attention of somebody that then bankrolls them is a

He's been gifted a huge amount of his stuff. wasn't him taking the risk. He's basically been said, here's fate on a platter for you.

I wouldn't say it's not that he still hasn't taken the risks because he's very much risked his life trying to get into the heaven school or whatever at the very beginning there. Sure.

to somebody. But I mean, he's still been given some

SLAVA (01:18:02.274)
think it's his drive. I think it's the drive. No, it's the thing. It's his drive that gets him into athens crosshairs for lack of a better term. And then athens does definitely bankroll him and give him like he lost an arm. Yeah. And irrespective of how he lost that arm, let's just say the fact itself lost his arm. If it wasn't for athens helping him get another arm, he would have been in a total disadvantage no matter what risk he took to get to that point in time. Right.

So I think all of the things you guys are saying, they're true independently, but they work in tandem in this story. And I think in general in real life too. So you have people who have little means, who try really hard and those efforts, whether they involve risks per se or not, probably get them to places where they do get a leg up or they get a freebie in air quotes that helps them go further. And that freebie

at least in Lyndon's case, doesn't make him complacent like it would somebody to JT's earlier point who's had resources all their lives, it makes them drive even more because if I do more and more and more things, I'll get another, again, air quotes freebie, I'll get to another place where I'll be able to take more resources and use those resources to continue. So not to get too much in the weeds with this, I think all the things we're saying, they kind of work together.

No, I agree. Because I'm not saying that he doesn't, Lyndon doesn't deserve any of this. we are, no, Lyndon is a main character and the main character is somebody who started at the bottom. So he's got that incredible drive. but also has to, by definition of the plot, stay the main character by continuing to advance far beyond most people. Because if he didn't.

That's what I heard.

JT (01:19:58.346)
wouldn't be the main character anymore. So, and you can, you can see it as, the author is just gifting this to them. Or you can also see it as to some degree, the main character is your, you are looking at a story in which you're not going to focus on the people that don't get anywhere. You're going to focus on the, that one in a billion person who has this incredible luck as well as incredible drive. And that's who you make stories about.

And that's true in real life as well. You're gonna, the people that really make it are gonna be, I hope you didn't hear that. It's my phone in my background. The people that you're going to focus on in any story are gonna be the utterly exceptional, not the, I got this by virtue of my birth and station.

That's why they keep hitting me up to do more stories about me.

yeah? The exceptional growth?

SPENSER (01:20:59.384)
Where are these,

He's growing so fast his buttons are popping.

There it is there it is

Where are all these stories then, Jonathan?

It's on my OnlyFans. It's a text-based OnlyFans. You'll have to. $2.99 a month, because there's no visuals. Thought about incorporating some AI generation, but couldn't get the hand right. Kept putting seven fingers on it.

SPENSER (01:21:12.509)
okay. I didn't subscribe to that one, my bad. Yeah.

SLAVA (01:21:29.449)
We were doing so good for just,

Slow on the uptake there, Slava.

We were doing so good for him.

Falling apart

man.

JT (01:21:42.126)
Spencer, I think you were the one that brought up that point to begin with that you have a sort of an end cap to that or a go back.

no, I really feel like you guys explained it well and that really sums up my views on it too. think people that do have more, resources to start with definitely have more of an advantage, in life. And like, there's only a certain amount of pulling up your own bootstraps that'll really get you to certain places in life. Like obviously, you know, Lyndon has.

A drive like almost no one else in his world and that definitely gets him to places that very few people would get to but but also he definitely has the backing of the Aurelius, specifically, Aethon, you know, giving him all the resources that he needs to to to help him advance and use his drive. So, yeah, I wasn't really focused necessarily on.

the character of Kaelin. just, when he said that line, it just kind of made me think about that whole topic. Just how people who generally are wealthier have a better off, a better situation. they tend to, if they have the drive of Linden, will make it further in life or advance.

quote unquote quicker than other people. So yeah, that is pretty much my thoughts on that. But no, I think you guys summed that up pretty nicely.

JT (01:23:25.762)
I think it's somewhat a, there is a bit of a balance, like a self balancing that goes on with this, at least generally, that the more you have, the easier it becomes to waste. And that builds up over generations. So if you have, that's why nobles always tend to, noble houses tend to fall at some point because

they get so full of themselves thinking that they're better than everybody else that eventually they don't have the skill to maintain the wealth that they have. And then somebody else who's worked harder and built the skills in like the current generation will come up to replace them. And that's generally how I think wealth works over generations.

Good times create weak men, weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times, and the cycle continues. Casey, do you want me to do the loop again? No.

can stop the loop now. We get it.

Yeah, weakman.

CASEY (01:24:35.534)
Jonathan creates hard times.

What other remaining questions do you guys have before we wind this guy down from the book?

How do you feel about characters that are really stupid? I have been thinking about Daiji.

on that.

I thought you were going to say dross.

CASEY (01:24:54.643)
Dross is not a stupid character he's just he has no social thoughts because he's a program more than a human.

He's a bit of an oddity, but it's it's not thinking about characters. So die. Gee, is the the son of the other empire who survived his brother died in the last book, I think. And two books ago, the Kieran was the hound guy. I forget, I forget his brother's name.

two books ago.

SPENSER (01:25:22.638)
I it was very similar to that.

but they, he, he, all he does is like, I hate you, Lyndon, and I will make you suffer. And he just cut, cannot get through his mind that there is a world outside of his own experience. Lyndon's bad because he killed my brother. Yes, my brother was coming to kill him. he should have rolled over.

It doesn't make it okay.

make it okay in his eyes, which I feel that is somewhat accurate to old blood feuds. It ceases to make sense at some point. You just know, yeah, that family over there. yeah, we have a blood feud with them. Like one of their ancestors killed one of our ancestors and so we're killing them. It was all started because he killed one of our sheep and we killed one of their sheep and yada, yada, yada.

So it does feel accurate that way and how he's just pursuing the blood feud.

JONATHAN (01:26:22.968)
kill their family, salt their lands and burn their fields that their bloodline may never be remembered.

Sure, let's go with that. Slava what were you about to say?

Well, I don't think Prince Daiji would be that eloquent in his revenge. He kind of rages against Linden and his, we'll call him ill-conceived attempts at revenge. In the face of Linden's clear and increasing power, it just shows his inability to grasp reality. He's so focused on this revenge. And I think add hubris to it because he's a prince.

or whatever. shows him as foolish. Stupid, to use JT's term. It shows him as a fool. An unintelligent person. Where, maybe intelligent now, just foolish. Because you can be intelligent and can be smart in the sense of books and facts and details, but you can be a fool too. And I think that's what he is.

I agree with that.

JONATHAN (01:27:24.6)
killing in the name of... dun dun dun.

Yes.

No? You guys don't rage against machine? Alright, cool. Not really. Great, just me then.

We're just all rats and despite all our rage, we're still in the cage. And I missed that Lear Cup.

You messed it up.

JT (01:27:44.455)
Despite all our rage

Yeah, it's nice Trislava.

That's my dyslexia, I guess.

Did you say dyslexia?

They didn't realize that works verbally.

JONATHAN (01:27:59.092)
I guess so. That's just my dyslexia.

Even if I said dyslexia, it's my dyslexia that forced me to say dyslexia, screw you guys.

Jonathan, I think your ears need glasses, that's why.

You

Just to do what they told you.

JONATHAN (01:28:22.51)
There's another rage against machine plight.

Nobody here listens to that band so nobody's gonna-

Yeah, you don't. You don't even know the line.

my is but i think was a

Just that's in a cage

CASEY (01:28:33.912)
Sashapumpkins, I think I've heard a couple of their songs. Again.

I prefer growing corn than smashing pumpkins, but that's just me.

Huh?

Daiji to me felt a little bit, he felt like he would be perfect, perfectly at home in the Chinese source novels. There are so many people that are that weirdly obsessed with revenge and foolish. felt out of place in this book where everybody else seems to have some amount of reasonability or at least intelligence in getting what they want that he just goes, yeah, no, I would

I would burn this world to the ground if it meant getting revenge on-

JONATHAN (01:29:18.21)
Brilliant, Daiji. Brilliant.

I didn't like it as a character. Well, I mean, obviously he's not supposed to be liked, but I felt like he was.

lazily written

Even as an a-hole character, he wasn't a good character.

Yeah, like there was something missing.

JONATHAN (01:29:33.528)
makes him lazy as a character, or like lazily written.

he didn't seem to have a, compared to everything else around him, where everybody else seems to have some amount of reasonability, like real people. almost felt like he was, like he's the kind of person that thinks thoughts are things that happen in other people's heads. He doesn't think thoughts. He just does things, reacts to the world.

You've never met people like that in real life? You've never met like, shells of people?

I have seen them, I have not met them, no. I've heard of them, potentially.

You see that guy over there? No thoughts. Watch what he does. He does this every morning. Like clockwork. Just like some sort of Neanderthal.

SPENSER (01:30:21.528)
Just you.

So that was going be my question, what Jonathan brought up. I was going to phrase it differently. So is he a poorly written character or is he written purposefully to be this foolish and this inept?

Hmm. Well, no, he's definitely written to be that inept. I guess I hadn't thought that maybe he was really just going for somebody with no internal experience.

Yeah, so that's how I read it. Maybe there's something in the writing that didn't jump out at you. And it's not to say that it jumped out at me, because I read it pretty literalistically as in this guy is just a raging fool who is going after revenge to the point where he doesn't see that he's outmatched. Miera, however you say her name, calls him an idiot. He tries to attack Miera and

gets obliterated pretty much. And what I just said about Lyndon just a few seconds ago, despite Lyndon's increasing power, he's like, nope, I'm still going to kill this guy no matter what. So maybe from your perspective as a reader, you felt there needed to be more fleshing out of his foolishness or his NPC-ness, if you will.

JT (01:31:41.356)
So actually, now the more I'm thinking about it, because there are lots of characters that I have seen that act that way in the other novels. And I think the difference between them and Daiji is less about their intelligence or their non-foolishness, the more the other aspects of their character design that make it feel somewhat different. It's hard to explain.

that basically he's a prince and so he should act like a prince and yet he acts like a child.

Well, I think we see that though.

How do you think princes act when they're spoiled rotten?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

SLAVA (01:32:42.488)
I think that's what I was getting at with my question and I think you answered it. That's what was missing for you in my view. Yeah. JT, he could have been blinded by revenge, but he could have acted more nobly, not nobly, haughty, I think is a better term, but he could have acted more as a noble would still in the background doing everything possible to the point of foolish actions.

and maybe not thinking through his actions to get revenge on Lyndon, but the facade would have been, am a royal prince and I am here to kill the guy who killed my brother. Did I pick up what you're saying? Okay.

Yeah, I think that would describe some of my feelings to that. Okay, does anybody else have another point before we wind this down? Spencer's chomping at the bit to say something.

Did you guys cover all of your hot takes and your questions that we were bringing to the table?

I mean, the only question that I had really left was who else saw Ethan's deal cutting with Reagan Shen coming? Because that was a bit out of nowhere for me. I was like, he hates this guy. Why is he actually listening to the deal?

JONATHAN (01:33:53.77)
I don't think there was any foreshadowing or preemptive notice, even my first read through.

just out of nowhere. yeah, I'll take that deal. like, what the heck? What are you doing?

Yeah, I, it was, it was a little surprising to me, but also, Ethan is definitely a schemer. So like, it doesn't surprise me that he, did that. it was like, just had the difference between like shock and surprise maybe where it was like, I'm surprised that I didn't see that coming or that he, did that originally with, was it Raygon Shen? But

but not like shocked that he would do that because because he is a schemer and he's trying to get in. Honestly, he's probably more the one playing Reagan Shen anyway because he is such a schemer and he's just trying to get the best advantage that he can for for Lyndon and Yaron. Obviously, Lyndon's out of the fight at this point, but if things like big picture minded, he's not just focused on, you know, the here and now he's like, how is this going to benefit me in the future? And

If this benefits Lynden and or Yaren and Mercy in the future, then I'm going to take this deal now. Whereas Ragon Shen seems to be more focused on the here and now. Like how can I benefit my student now in this uncrowned tournament? Whereas Aethon's like, yeah, it's just a crowned tournament. Yeah, there's definitely a lot on the line, but also like I'm more focused on the future. So yeah, not completely just like shocked that he would take that deal.

JONATHAN (01:35:26.932)
Right. think the bigger thing that we're going to find out is did that pan out for Aethon or does it bite him? yeah.

He did have to was that he did have to notify malice beforehand that he was taking the probably otherwise he was going to get absolutely obliterated the minute he stepped in the arena and fail twice.

and he owes her a favor now.

Yeah, we'll see how that's gonna turn out later. Or if he even does the favor, which would be even more ballsy.

yeah, I have ascended to monarch now. Okay, I'm leaving for the Abbot and bye. You can totally do that. He's like, all right, I'm giving up the responsibility on that favor. Goodbye. See you.

JONATHAN (01:36:04.344)
She comes back as an Abaddon and goes, hey, that favor you owe me from 100 years ago, I'm cashing in.

I did not think you were going to leave.

Could be.

Awesome. Well, always a pleasure to have you guys on. Any final thoughts before we go? The next book is going to be a little while because we've got a stack of to be read. Actually, it's not that far away. I'm looking at the calendar here, but it'll be coming up. I am excited to see and hear the responses regarding what unfolds in the world of Cradle. Have you guys read any of the next books yet?

I haven't obviously Jeremy has he's read through the entire thing but.

JONATHAN (01:36:47.202)
Yep, so cool. I'm excited. I can't wait. It'll be a good time. And you know, I'm pro costume, pro cosplay. So if you wanna, if you wanna.

Looking forward to it as well.

JT (01:37:00.974)
you

Listen, if you're not showing up in cosplay, I'm not bothering. This thing is very hot.

it

Look.

You know what? respect to committing to wearing that the whole time.

JONATHAN (01:37:13.868)
You guys should just send Spencer a costume and then see if he wears it. I'll give you his address.

Ha

Listen, I've committed to the bit. commit to the bit. The bit stays on.

I love it. Slava on the other hand is living in his mother's basement. We can't even see because it's so dark.

So, you

CASEY (01:37:37.546)
It is what it is.

Come out of the cave, Slava. Plato's Republic, come out of the cave.

gonna have to leave like food outside of the door to lure him out.

Yeah, ramen. I'll do it for ramen.

is the episode, I guess. Woof. Why don't you run us out, JT?

JT (01:37:57.986)
Well, fellow sacred artists, thank you for joining us on the SideQuest Podcast going over Wintersteel. If you have any comments, put them down below. I sent them down below. And if you'd like to share us with your family and friends, thank you for joining us.

Thank you.

Boo! Boo, we're out.

I have a favorite ask here. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.