Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to Cultivate, a podcast by The Branch Community Church. We’re committed to delving into the practical questions our community is asking. In each episode, we explore topics relevant to church life and faith, offering wisdom, discernment, and biblical perspective into the simple questions that often arise. Join us as we seek to deepen our understanding and grow together in our journey of loving and serving Jesus.
Welcome to Cultivate, a podcast by the Branch Community Church. We're committed to delving into the practical questions that our community is asking. In each episode, we'll explore topics that are relevant to church life and faith, offering wisdom, discernment, and biblical perspective into the simple questions that often arise. Join us as we seek to deepen our understanding and grow together in our journey of loving and serving Jesus. Today we're tackling a real life challenge.
Speaker 1:Being a part of a church that sometimes does things you don't like or don't fully agree with. It's something every believer will face at some point. So Daniel, let's talk about it. How do we respond when our church makes decisions or takes approaches that rub us the wrong way? How do we stay rooted in our faith and connected to our church family even when it's not exactly how we do it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a really good question. And the reality is a lot of people really struggle with this question and try to how to answer it in the right way. So just to start off, would say here are things that that were certain in scripture are very, very clear. And there's all kinds of nuances to this, but I would say these are the things that are non negotiables as we're trying to make the decisions.
Speaker 2:So the first one would be is if you are a member of a church and you're considering leaving, you need to first and foremost check your own heart, that you have a good grip and a good understanding on what church should be. Because the Bible teaches that the church is the local gathering of those that have been called out by God because they have trusted and followed Jesus. It's the gathering of those individual Christians. It is not an institution. It is not a consumeristic thing that you come.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of people leave church, not everybody, but there is a percentage of people they leave because they don't understand church. They think church is a place that I want something and it should give me that thing that I want. And that thing that they want is not necessarily biblical righteous things. It's like I want this programming. I want this ministry.
Speaker 2:I want this thing. I want this music. I want this preaching. And so you need to ask yourself, are you leaving because of one of those reasons? Because if you are, it's wrong.
Speaker 2:You don't need to leave because of consumeristic needs. You need to leave because of biblical righteous reasons. And so that's the first thing. Check your own heart. Are you being a consumeristic Christian?
Speaker 2:The second thing I would say is if something in the life of the pastor or pastors or leaders is sinful or wrong, or two, something is being preached or taught that is sinful or wrong, then that is a clear reason for you just to leave. And you can leave kind of no questions asked. You can move on. So if you look at a pastor and the Bible has these qualifications in Titus two that he has to meet in order for him to be in ministry, doesn't have to be perfect, but he has to meet those qualifications and he violates that, right? That he's embezzling money in the church or misspending money in church or he's abusing his authority in a toxic way or he's not a husband of one wife.
Speaker 2:He does things that are inappropriate with women. If any of those cases, he's disqualified and you can't follow him in good faith. Right. Or the other side of the coin is if he's saying things from the pulpit that you're holding your bible and it's contradicting what the bible is teaching, then in those cases you need to move on too. So like I was listening to a guy online, he had like a rainbow flag around his shoulders and he was making the biblical argument that because Jesus did life for three years with men and Jesus was a man, that that means that he must have been pro LGBTQ plus, and maybe there was even some same sex relationships amongst the disciples, which all of that is like not in the New Testament.
Speaker 2:The guy was just violating what scripture is saying. And so in those cases, you would just need to leave and find find another church. So I would say those are the clear things right out the gate. Are you a consumer? And if you are, you need to stop being consumer and and pursue Christ and understanding the church in the right way.
Speaker 2:Or two, if it is violating scripture and it's not righteous or good, then you do just need to leave.
Speaker 1:Right. One way we try to get ahead of this issue in our church is through our membership process. We devote an entire section to explaining what we believe and why we believe it. In that meeting, Daniel, you walked people through the idea that there are actually three tiers when it comes to the beliefs or theology. Could you unpack those three tiers for us and help guide us in this conversation?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So before I unpack it, the way that we talk about church membership at the branch is we talk about it almost like we're dating. I know that's a weird way to think about it, but that's how we talk about it. And we say like, look, we want to get to know you and we also want you to get to know us So that a year or two or three years from now when we do something as a church, preaching, teaching structurally, that you're not shocked by that. That you know on the front end before we commit to being the family of brothers and sisters in Christ and a covenant in this local church, we need to know each other.
Speaker 2:And so I borrowed the three tier thing. It's not original to me. It's from Al Mohl, the president of Southern Seminary. Basically the three tiers are really simple. The first tier is like core doctrines that every Christian has to believe.
Speaker 2:So Jesus is God. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. He literally rose from the dead. The Bible All of these core fundamental things that we would say, If you don't believe these things, we will tell you you're not a Christian, because Christians have to believe these core things. So that's tier one.
Speaker 2:Tier two would be the idea that we agree on everything in tier one, so we agree the core fundamental beliefs, but we disagree on some other doctrines or theology that might make it really difficult for us to do church with one another. And so we're brothers and sisters in Christ. We are both belonging. We're gonna be in heaven together. But because we disagree on some of these other things, it's really, really hard to do So, like, one of those big things is baptism.
Speaker 2:So, we believe baptism is an outward expression of an inward change that happens by dunking them, by immersing them after they've believed the gospel. So, we don't practice infant baptism, and we don't sprinkle in our church. Well, some people are from a denominational background like Presbyterians or Methodists that do it that way. And so they love Jesus just as much as we do. They love the Bible just as much as we do.
Speaker 2:But because of that disagreement, it's gonna make it really hard for us to do church with one another.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I would say anything in tier two, you probably should be willing to leave a church and find a church that meets sort of your theological convictions and beliefs on those topics. And so baptism is that way. How you view women in ministry is that way. Like our church is complementarian. We think that women are wonderful and they're awesome.
Speaker 2:I mean, Brooke, you're a leader in our church, full paid staff, but you're not a pastor. And so we think pastors are men according to the scriptures. And so that's sort of a unique belief that other Christians disagree, they believe the Gospel. How you view the gifts of the Spirit, should we cast out demons and should we faith heal people and speak in tongues, that's another big one. How you understand that kind of defines the way that you do the corporate gathering.
Speaker 2:And so that tier two is sort of like you really need to know what you're about. And if you don't, you're going to be kind of confused. And the other thing is tier three. Tier three is like things that we might disagree on, but we completely can do church with one another. How a Christian should understand America, how a Christian should think about what they should wear to church, how a Christian should understand should you sing hymns or modern day contemporary songs.
Speaker 2:Those are things that a lot of Christians have strong opinions on, but the Bible isn't as crystal clear on those things as we might say on baptism. And so because of that third tier thing, we don't make a big stink out of that. Basically in our church we say we're not going to fight about So we're not going to bicker and argue about those tier three things, but we are tier two things. And so Christians need to sort of know what they believe and what tier some things are. So for you, if the King James version bible is as crystal clear in scripture that it's the only translation as baptism, then you need to go to church that's King James only.
Speaker 2:Because in our church, you could be King James preferred or only, we're not gonna fight about it. We'll talk about it and dialogue about it, but we're not gonna make a big stink out of that. So Christians need to sort of know what they believe because that way that drives the way and motivates them and advises them over when is it right to leave leave the church. So you're not leaving the church because a guy was over there in shorts and you think they're going liberal. Well there's nothing in the New Testament that says it's liberal to wear shorts to church, you know?
Speaker 2:So I would just encourage people to know the scriptures for themselves, to be the kind of Christian that doesn't just say, well I believe this because my church growing up believed that. Like that's not good. Like you need to know what you believe according to the word of God and then find a church that would be in harmony with those convictions and beliefs that you have.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Good. Daniel, this brings up another big question a lot of people wrestle with. When is it actually a good time to leave a church? And for some someone who's feeling the tension right now, wondering if it's time to step away, how would you coach them through this process?
Speaker 1:What does a healthy, God honoring transition look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the question when is it okay sort of depends. Like TBD, what are the details around it? But I do wanna say here's some really practical, hopefully helpful advice for anybody like our church or any other church that they might be a part of to leave. And I would say number one, it is a mistake to leave a church compulsively and hastily. So if you are leaving a church because of a moment of emotion, because you're just mad or angry or upset, and it's not an issue of sin, right, if it's sin in the camp, then yes, you have a good reason to leave.
Speaker 2:But if it's just because something's happened that's upset you, you don't need to do that. James four says that you don't need to say, I'm gonna go to this town. You need to say instead, if the Lord wills that I'm gonna go to that town. So the idea there is that instead of you saying I'm gonna leave the church, you need to say, does God want me to leave this church? Is it best for me as a single person?
Speaker 2:Is it best for me as a married person with kids? Is it God's best for my life to change churches? And if you pray that for a period of time and you know you're not making the decision hastily or compulsively, then I say it may be good for you to leave. The other thing I would say is just be careful in that decision making process because a lot of people when they're in that season and they may feel like God wants them to leave, sometimes they stay too long. Right?
Speaker 2:Right. And because they stay too long, they actually can begin to hate the church because they'll say all churches are like this church that they're in that's frustrating them, or they'll actually cause divisions and schisms in the church that they are because they should have left a while ago because God made that clear, and they're not for whatever reason that they're not. But also the other extreme is sometimes people leave churches too quickly. It's like they have such strong opinions over what the church should be that it's like the only way that they can actually be in a church and like it is if they started their own. And I say that kind of joking around because there's a lot of people that are like that.
Speaker 2:They show up to a church and they want to have a meeting with the pastor to tell him all the things that are wrong with the church. And they kind of rotate churches every two, three, four, five years because nothing's ever good enough because they have their own view of all the things that church should be. And so sometimes people leave too quickly, and so I would say don't do those things. Be wise. Be careful in how you go about it.
Speaker 2:And my last piece of advice if you are gonna leave a church is I would say don't leave without talking to a pastor in the church. Have a direct conversation with him. And I know that this is super tough, and most people leaving a church do not want to do that. And I understand that there's exceptions, like if the pastor's toxic, if he's abusing his power, like, yeah, in those cases, it may be good just to to bow out. But But I think generally speaking, it's loving and kind to the leadership of your church to communicate to them why you're leaving.
Speaker 2:Because be reminded, pastors are people too. And pastors are also your brothers in Christ that like, mean, you know I've talked about this before, but when people come to church and they're like, got church hurt, I always want to be like, Yeah, guess what? So do I as a pastor. You know what I'm saying? You grew up a pastor's kid, like, Do you have church hurt?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, like as a PK? So the truth is, it's like, and where do pastors get church hurt from? From people sometimes. And so it's like, we all have church hurt because all people are sinners in the church who need Christ to follow Jesus.
Speaker 2:So it's like, it is an expression of love to the pastor to go to him and say, hey, I'm leaving and here's why. Because in some cases the pastor needs to apologize, I can't apologize if I don't know that we've done it. In some cases the pastor needs to change something. Like in our church, if it is a legitimate frustration, we will try to change it for the glory of God. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:We want our church to we don't want to be loyal to the way that we used to do it. If we can change it and it's more effective for the Gospel, we'll do that. But we can't change anything if we don't know about it because we have blind spots. And so we need to hear about it. And so since we've started the church, some people leave and it's not that big of a deal because they weren't really connected and they just left because that was what they wanted.
Speaker 2:Some people leave and you find out about it from Facebook. That's tough. It's tough to hear that. You find out from a second or third party in the church. The best case was we had a guy in our church that ended up leaving our church and he had a meeting.
Speaker 2:He came to my office and he looked me in the eye and he said, I love you. I love the church, but y'all's church just doesn't have some things that my family needs. And yeah, it was tough. It was hard for him and us, but I was so grateful he did it that way because now when I see him, I love him, he loves me, and he left in a way that kept the gospel central, and I'm just so grateful for that. So I would just my encouragement to anybody wanting to leave is I would say, do it.
Speaker 2:Like if that's what God's leading to you and that's what's best for you, but just do it in the right way. Do it in a way that you can say, I'm leaving because I feel like the glory of God would be better served if I was in another church. And if that's not the case, then you need to kind of really wrestle with that with a pastor with other people inside of the church. So that's my encouragement to everybody. That's great.
Speaker 1:Thanks for spending time with us here on Cultivate. Remember, growth doesn't happen overnight. But as we stay rooted in Christ, he is faithful to bring the harvest. Until next time.