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The Curious Roots podcast digs deep in the living earth of our personal, familial and communal lives to help us understand how we exist in the world today. Though the format of the podcast may vary from season to season, be it narratives, one-on-one interviews or panel discussions, the root line is the same. What are the stories from our family and community histories that travel with us into the present? How do we understand and work with these histories as both individuals and as collectives to create the world of now and the future?
Season one of the podcast begins with the maternal story of my own curious roots, still buried, but breathing and holding fast in Harris Neck, Georgia. Each week, in six short form episodes, I’ll share the story of my mother’s people and how it informs my life today.
Curious Roots is hosted by Michelle McCrary and is co-produced by Moonshadow Productions and Converge Collaborative.
S1-Ep 1 Part 2-Final
[Music]
Michelle McCrary: Welcome to Curious Roots. I'm Michelle McCrary. Before we get into part two of my interview with Winston Relaford, uh, the Chairman of the Harris Neck Land Trust, I wanted to encourage folks to support Curious Roots by subscribing on Apple and Spotify. If you feel so moved, you can leave a review. You can also find Curious Roots on Instagram at Curious Roots Pod.
And you can also follow our website, which is Curious Roots Pod dot co and episode three will be the first part of our interview with Adolphus Armstrong, who's part of Ujima Genealogy and also the Low Country DNA Project. So I'm really looking forward to sharing that with you as well. Thanks again for listening.
Michelle McCrary: So we were talking about the deep independence of the Harris Neck community. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on a distinction about that, that is in my mind. And I just want to know if you agree. When We talk about independence and, you know, not relying on folks to do things and, you know, kind of do it for ourselves.
A lot of people equate that to not being in community and not being in collaboration with your community, family, friends. And I feel like there's a difference between that. And a kind of independence that's like rugged individualism that sort of tells a story that one person can only do for themselves with no help from anybody else.
Um, and the reason I say that is because when Terri Ward shared with me the pension records of my third great grandfather, Lester Grant, Um, Mustafa Shaw and several other members of the Harris neck community helped him and his wife, Elizabeth Cooper Grant move from St. Catherine's Island back to Harris neck, and it's all documented in those pension records and this deep sense of community cooperation and collaboration among these fiercely inde,, independent people was so evident to me.
So I just want to know from you, is that the same sense that you have, or do you have a different view?
Winston Relaford: I don't know, Michelle, that I have a, uh, a different view, but, you know, rugged individualism to me means, uh, one thing, and I think, uh, uh, I guess the problem that I, that I, uh, that I hear from people, not necessarily in the way you outline it, because the way you've outlined it is how I feel, and, and, and I've, and I, and, and subscribe to it, but to me, rugged individualism is that, that determination is that determination.
You need a group of rugged individuals to be able to do what Mustafa and the rest of them did. They were free and independent to help a person in need, and they, and they never, they never strayed away from that. Uh, I look at, uh, rugged individual individualism as a threat to the powers that be, because if you don't need them for anything, then you, uh, they look at it as a threat.
Maybe it has to do with their own insecurities. But yes, they, they look at, look at it as a threat. And in, in today's world, if you don't belong to this group or you don't do things to, as a group, then you're, you're, you're considered something, uh, less than desirable. And, uh, and I do have a, uh, a problem with that because, uh, I want my autonomy, I want my, my individualism so that I'm free to help whoever I want to help.
And, and we can't look to something, uh, be honest, other than God, you know, to, to help us in, in our pursuit of, of whatever it is we, we pursue, you know, we can pursue the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of wealth, the pursuit of, of, uh, of, uh, any goal or anything that you determine you want in life, and so I think just.
Not even, uh, other than getting it secondhand from the, from the elders of Harris neck and that, that rugged determination that you see in that willingness to, to get things done. I saw my own mother do it. And I've got my life lessons from her watching her, uh, work through difficult situations and, and, and doing it, uh, with the help of God.
I'm always want to make that clear. With the help of God, we can be as rugged as we want to, but without God, we're nothing. And so I don't ever want to speak without saying that and giving God his, uh, his just due. But yes, that determination that we have as individuals come, I think, from God and you are here.
Uh, because, uh, God saw fit to, to bring you here, and the people of Harris Neck was a living example of that, and I looked at all my, all the people of Harris Neck, I look at, uh, the Evelyn Greers of the world, the Valencia McIntoshes of the world, the Jesse Grants and the Katie Grants of the world, the Sonny Timmons of the world, when you look at those people that are just so, uh, uh, rugged and dogged in their determination, yeah, And, you know, and I got it from both sides of my family, my grandfather on my dad's side, he was a rugged individual like that.
And, uh, and so, it, it, to me, it, it's just so disconcerting when I see, uh, our people today, the generation that we live in succumb to, uh, the government for help. Uh, I'm, you know, I think there's a place for government, but I think, the less of it we have, the better off we are. And, and when you don't have somebody coming by giving you a little something, uh, to exist on, then, uh, you find out a better way of getting it done.
And I guess another way I can say that. Is if an individual is left to figure out a way in this life, if he figures out on his own, he can figure out a much better and a more sustaining way to his life than the government ever could. I don't know if that makes sense to you or not. That's what I'm saying.
We can find a better solution to our problems than government ever could. And so when we rely on someone else for our existence, then we're subject to those, uh, to those people. The rugged individualist is not subject to that. I, I certainly do hear your point. And it makes me think of, um, all the obstacles in the way.
Um, folks being, uh, self sufficient and having the ability to help those in their community as they see fit. Um, I think about like, you know, things as small as people taking umbrage with community gardens or people, um, you know, If you think about land and being able to have your own communities and own your own property and your land, you know, however, you know, things work in that fashion, you know, kind of how we live now.
And there's a great resistance to that sometimes that I feel like speaks to. That energy that was put toward Harris neck and the events that led up to 1942. So, and that's kind of how I see it, you know, in, in my vision, like, um, when you show people that you can do for yourself and you have a community that has decided to, you know, do for themselves, um, That is the threat.
Um, so that's kind of how I, I, I, I'm interpreting in my own lens what you're saying. So I hear you. Okay, you're on, you're on point. I couldn't have said it better. You put, you said it exactly the way I mean it. And so, and, and, and your community. Uh, I remember as a kid growing up. Now this, mind you, this is, uh, this is before, uh, government intervention into our lives.
This is before welfare. This is before all of the things that were set to, uh, uh, I mean, all the things that were put in place to, to derail us. In the name of helping us, uh, if, if a house, if one of your neighbor's house burned down or God forbid your house burned down, uh, there was no question about what the neighborhood, the neighbor was going to do.
They'd all get together and brought whatever skills they had and whatever resources they had and they would, uh, and they would make you, make you whole again. Uh, I remember a family got, uh, got burned out. And, uh, and the community came together and, and, uh, and, and, and made them whole. So to me, we had a better idea of what's needed when a person, um, fall on hard times, you know, we're not going to let a person starve or anything like that because they're part of the community.
And so, What the government can't do is, uh, make policy for someone or a group of people, uh, because they'll come in and they don't have a litmus test. And by that, I mean, when a person lives in the community, if you had a deadbeat that fell on hard times, well, he would get a little help, but not like the person that's getting up, uh, uh, working every day and trying to make something of himself.
So the neighbor, the community knew the difference. The government does not know the difference. They see everybody as one group and they'll come in and this is okay. Well, uh, then we'll, we'll spend this much money on everybody. And so after a while, they're not helping anybody because nobody wants to work because of the free money that comes from the, from, from that way.
And so that, that stifles, uh, independence that stifles a rugged individualism. And I've, I've just wondered, I've just formed that in my life is that, you know, I want to be that individual that can get it done on my own and help those that are in need.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you for sharing that. Um, and it makes me think of, uh, my, one of my last two questions for you. Um, you spoke about it briefly and you mentioned the Harris Neck Land Trust. Um, what are your thoughts about The situation as it stands now, um, if there's anything in that, in having to deal directly with the federal government with that situation, because it was a federal order, um, how do you even approach or think about the situation of Harris Neck now?
Winston Relaford: Well, uh, I'm deeply involved with it. I am the chairman of the Harris neck land trust and we have, uh, been fighting, uh, this battle, uh, for a very, very long time. Now I've not been in involved with the movement from the beginning of back in the seventies, but I have been a member of the Harris neck land trust since 2006.
Winston Relaford: Um, And we have, uh, uh, we've met with the government, uh, on several occasions, and we've done a lot. Now, to get back to your original question, if I understand it, uh, uh, properly, properly, you asked me, is there any, uh, you know, what is my take on, uh, what's going on and what is it like to have to, to go, uh, up against the behemoth of the federal government in order to, to get something back?
Is, uh, am I reading you right? Yes, that is that is the question. Um, you know, what is their part in this? And really, what is their role in in rectifying what I feel like was a wrong? Well, let me start by saying that there was a moral injustice done to the 75 black families of Harris neck back in 1942.
There was a travesty that never should have taken place. And we have appealed to every, uh, group of people that we can to, to, to write, uh, a moral wrong. And so far, what we've found out of all of our politicians, and, uh, I won't name names because I'll, I'll need to, to call them, uh, Call them all out. And that is that we, uh, they've made promises, uh, to, to, to get legislation and things of that nature.
And so far, we've not been able to, to get them to do that. They, there does not seem to be enough political will in our elected leaders to, to, to move forward and correct. Right. The moral wrong, no matter how evident it is, no matter how succinct, no matter how vivid we can paint the picture of the moral wrong that was done to the people of Harris Neck.
We have nobody in position at this point. That has the moral courage to, to correct that wrong. It's within their power to correct that wrong, but they won't do it. I've already spoke, spoken to Dan Ash, who was, uh, at, in 2011 was the, the, the director of Fish and Wildlife. I've, uh, spoken to, uh, many people up there.
We testified before the, uh, the House Committee on Ancillary Affairs. Thank you very much. And, uh, made the same case and, and, uh, to no avail. We've spoken to people that have, that know that, uh, uh, and would be willing to admit that a wrong was done, but they hide behind the fact that, oh, we're powerless to do it.
We don't have precedent to do this. We don't have precedent to do that. And, uh, my appeal to them all along has been Then, where's your moral courage? You have to be willing to stand up and say what's wrong and then do what's right to correct it, especially when it's in your power. So that's the problem that we're facing and we're fighting it every day.
I was on a two hour conference call yesterday. Dealing with the Harris Neck land trust. In fact, most of my days now spent doing something for the Harris neck community working on getting the land back to the rightful owners to the people of Harris neck. That's what we work on. Every that's what I work on, uh, Many days during the month that I'm and so that's, uh, that's where we are that battle is still worth fighting.
I told my mother that, uh, before she died that I would stay in this fight until we, until we, uh, to get to regain the victory. And that's, that's my, that's my attitude. Now, I'm in it for the long haul, you know, whatever days I have left on this earth, I'll be fighting for the return of the land of Harris neck.
And that's my, that's, that's my, uh, motivating, uh, thing in life now is to, to get the land back for the people of Harris Neck.
Michelle McCrary: Oh, thank you for that. And I feel like that perfectly segues into, um, a question of what can descendants, you know, do to, uh, in this? Is assistance required? Like, what would you tell somebody like me who is You know, halfway across the country, um, you know, I don't get back to Georgia as much as I used to, you know, it's kind of coming back with COVID and it's, it's around, but, you know, we've now kind of learned to live with it.
Um, what, what, what would you say to, you know, People who are just future descendants and what, what do you feel like, you know, if there's any role for us in this, um, what would that look like for you,
Winston Relaford: Michelle? That's a good question. And, uh, what I would tell, uh, uh, the descendants of Harris net, no matter how far out You are on the on the tree or how close you are to the trunk.
Every individual's input is welcome and not only welcome, but needed. And that is we have people with skills. That we could, uh, we could use with the movement. You know, we have a, we have a website, you know, we, we, we, we welcome, uh, you know, we, we, we just, uh, added a webmaster to take, uh, take that, uh, up for us.
And, uh, she is, uh, working on that, but our web, uh, webmaster passed away, a young lady in New York. She passed away in, uh, December of January of this year. And so that was, you know, that was very shocking to us. Uh, but so that kind of help is needed. Uh, financial help is needed when we, cause we, you know, we take trips.
We, we have to go to, uh, DC, we have to go to Atlanta, we and there are different places that we have to go. So funds are needed for the for travel. Also, the attendance of our meetings, we are, we have meetings, the second Monday night of every month, and any input or. Even more importantly, anybody that's listening to this and they want to help if they have connections in D.C. with any of the politicians. I'm talking all the way up to the White House. If you have connections, we need an audience with him so that we can sit down and state our case and talk about the moral of the matter. injustice that was done to 75 families back in 1942, which is in turn now turn into hundreds, if not thousands of members of the Harris neck community, because people have gone on with their lives.
And many people don't know about Harris Neck, but if there's anything or any suggestions that they would make, we're open to that. You can contact us through the website. It's harrisnecklandtrust. org. Uh, they can call me if they want to contribute. And that's, uh, and that's where I see it going, uh, from here.
Because everything, every, every, uh, contribution, uh, first of all would be appreciated. And then secondly. You don't know what that contribution mean until you reach out. So you may know somebody that I don't know that we could make a difference because I really truly believe that the answer to this dilemma that we face is within our grasp.
We're just not at that right place at the right time, but that's what we're looking for. We're looking for all of the help that we can get. And like I said, number one is, uh, the, the contribution of information. Secondly, monetarily. And then, uh, uh, uh, thirdly, uh, uh, hands on information, look at our website, look at what we've done, look at the, uh, everything that's there and see, uh, Where you fit in, if there's something that you can add to it, then by all means, uh, you know, uh, give us a call and let's see if we can't work at it.
And no matter how simple it may seem, uh, don't let that deter you because we may not have seen it because when you're in the forest. And when you're battling every day, you don't see everything. Sometimes it can be right under your nose and you're not able to see it. So it takes a fresh set of eyes or a fresh desire, uh, to change things around.
So that's, uh, hopefully that answers your question.
Michelle McCrary: No, it absolutely does. And I just want to. Reiterate, um, you know, Harris neck land trust. org. If you can't find it directly, you can go to curious roots pod. com. I also have it on my website, um, the link. So folks can go and find out more and contribute. Um, and I feel like that's a good place to leave it.
And I just want to thank you so much again for taking this time. I feel like I have so much more to ask you. So once we get our technical stuff together and, um, you know, we work out those, those kinks, I would love to. Speak with you again. Um, I feel like there's so many more memories that you have to share that I want people to hear your voice and hear the voices of other members of the community because I think it's so important.
Winston Relaford: What I well then I'm more than happy to do it. So let's you know, whatever you want to let's set it up and we'll go for it because it's it's it's ongoing. And the other thing I'll tell you is that we we've done a couple of documentaries. We just finished up a very powerful documentary that a young man did for us.
Also had to, uh, Documentary that was done by two college students that, uh, that, uh, that they did a, an excellent job on Harris neck and the, and, and everything. So that, yes, if you, there, there's a lot more than what we've discussed today. Yes. I know there are so much more and I again, appreciate your time and, um, Everything that you've given to trying to right this wrong.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much You are so welcome. You're so welcome.
Archival Audio:
Margaret Baisden White: hope this thing is
Michelle McCrary: Yeah, I hope so too grandma
Margaret Baisden White: Is it on high or low? Oh, yes, it worked. I tested it last night.
Michelle McCrary: It was the batteries before because we came out here and Evelyn told all kinds of good stories About when she went to Washington to see Jimmy Carter and all kinds of stuff and My grandmother gave me a bum tape recorder.
Margaret Baisden White: Oh, I did no such thing. The batteries were weak. Oh, yeah. And I played it back when I took the old batteries out. And put new ones in. It taped everything. It was just that the batteries were weak and I didn't know it. And I brought, instead of bringing this one, I brought the other one. So this time, we got it plugged in the wall.
So if it's not taping now, don't look at me. I'm getting a manufacturer. Could you do it?
Miss Mary Moran: Singing Amelia’s Song
It's an African funeral hymn. Oh. I got the translation in English and I booked it out. But anyway, my mother didn't know what it was. All she told me, her grandmother taught it to her. I told her it was an old African song. And when I was a little child, I would just dance while things were happening. It has a beat to it.
Margaret Baisden White: Yeah. It does. It does have a little beat to it.
Miss Mary Moran: Yeah. And I'd known it. I would just dance while the thing happened. And, um. I had never learned it from my children. But, um, and Robert said he remembered it, but he never did tragedy enough to sing it. But the first time it came back to me, a group right over there in Africa in 87, I think it was, and they played my mother's record for them over there.
And they said it was a Gullah woman from McIntosh County, Georgia. And, uh, she made that recording back in 1932.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you so much for listening to Curious Roots. Learn more about Harris Neck at harrisneckwantrust. org And find out more about their work with the African American Redress Network at redressnetwork.org Learn more about Black coastal communities from North Carolina to Florida at Gullah Geechee Corridor dot org. You can support Gullah Geechee communities on St. Helena. and Sapelo Islands by following Protect St. Helena at Protect St. Helena. com and Saving Our Legacy Ourselves Solo at SavingOurLegacyOurselves.com. All links are in our show notes. Thanks to Mr. Winston Relaford for his generosity and his dedication to the Heretic movement. Thank you to my relatives who are now with the ancestors, Ms. Mary Moran, Cousin Evelyn Greer, Cousin Bob Thorpe, Cousin Chester Dunham, my father, Rodney Clark, my grandfather, Rufus White, and my grandmother, Margaret Baisden White.
Season two of Curious Roots is produced by Moonshadow Productions and with the generous support of Converge Collaborative. Thank you so much for listening.