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Candid conversations for the church. Host is Ardin Beech of Windsor District Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia. Co-hosted by Jonathan Hoffman.
It's time once again for This Week at Windsor. Arden beats your host. Joining me, doctor Jay.
Jonathan:Great to be with you again, Arden. How was the picnic?
Ardin:Excellent. We had a great time. Dried down to Wollongong. It was a lovely day. Wow.
Jonathan:Not so much. I thought you were going to the Blue Mountains.
Ardin:Too close.
Jonathan:How was the goal?
Ardin:It was good. It was nice. Yeah. I would encourage anyone to do the Grand Pacific Drive. It was quite a nice drive.
Ardin:Yeah. It'll take you a couple of hours
Jonathan:Nice.
Ardin:To head down there.
Jonathan:And there was no warm tomato sandwiches?
Ardin:Nope. All fresh. All fresh.
Jonathan:That's great. Well, you look like a happy man. Good on you taking your wife out. That's good.
Ardin:We had a good time. We had a good time. Now speaking of good time, we're helping you guys move.
Jonathan:Oh, you're confirmed. That's great.
Ardin:How did we even get roped into that?
Jonathan:Yeah. We're moving house. Isn't that awesome?
Ardin:I heard there's gonna be free meatballs.
Jonathan:You bet.
Ardin:You may need to message Joanne.
Jonathan:Well, now that it's now that it's on record. There will there will be meatballs. Yes. No. Yeah.
Jonathan:We, god has been so gracious to us. And, my in laws has been quite generous and, you know, sort of partnered with us to be able to get into a place. And, we're making the big move.
Ardin:Which isn't which isn't so big because it's kinda just a few doors down.
Jonathan:Yeah. It's about, like, 6 houses too. So, yeah, we're doing a move, from one house to another on the same street, which is really kind of funny. We got to go to the UK a few years ago, and we've my wife and I have been fascinated by Ireland. She was gonna get to go on a biking trip across Ireland, but instead she got a wedding.
Jonathan:So she sort of holds that over my head from time to time. But anyway, we we when we went to the we we were in Ireland finally, and we went to this place called Dingle. And we're like, oh, there's a town called Dingle. And we live on Dingle. And I got a shirt that says, Dingle, the best place in the world.
Ardin:There you go.
Jonathan:So there you go.
Ardin:Okay. When's it all happening?
Jonathan:Yeah. This weekend. So it's it's happening in a hurry. So, yeah, if I look a bit tired or bedraggled. But yeah.
Jonathan:No. One of the thing we're looking forward to about this is just a little more space, hopefully, to be more hospitable if anyone's been to our house for a pancake night. We've made the most of it, but we feel a bit packed in like sardines. So this is this should be good.
Ardin:Well, also coming up, the men's cookout.
Jonathan:Men's cookout. Yeah.
Ardin:There's gonna be amazing meat there.
Jonathan:There will be. Yes. Absolutely. Joanna's making thousands of meatballs. No.
Jonathan:There will be no meatballs at the cookout. No. No meatballs at the cookout.
Ardin:Amazing steak.
Jonathan:There will be some steak. There'll be other meats. It should be just be a good time. I think the goal is just to get some guys together so, you know, we recognize that this might not be everyone's thing, might not be able to come for the whole time, but it's 12th October. It's 4 to 8 PM, and we're gonna be meeting here at the church.
Jonathan:We're gonna have some grilling going on. Hopefully, be some smoked meat as well. You know? Fancy. We're we're gonna try to do do a bit of that.
Jonathan:And, yeah. We're gonna have the Bathurst races on. So no big agenda. Just come hang out. If you're one of these guys, you're like, oh, it's my Saturday.
Jonathan:I just wanna, like I just need to be in a nothing box. Just tell your significant other. Just say, look, there's this men's event at church and just come eat, sit in the corner. That's fine. You can be in your nothing box with with the rest of us.
Ardin:If you're a vegetarian, don't come.
Jonathan:There might be vegetarian options.
Ardin:There's probably salad.
Jonathan:There'll probably be salad. Alright. We It's not the it's not the highlight.
Ardin:No. The meat will be the highlight. That is correct. Alright. We should get to our guest.
Jonathan:We should. Well, we are absolutely thrilled today to welcome into the studio here. Can we call it a studio,
Ardin:Arden? Call it a studio. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah.
Jonathan:We'll call it a studio. To welcome into the studio here at this week at Windsor, Steve Bartlett, director of ministries. Welcome, Steve.
Steve:Thanks. Great to be with you. Yeah.
Jonathan:And when we say director of ministries, we mean director of ministries for the Baptist Association. So I've been telling people that we get to interview the big cheese this week. Is that what they call you around the office?
Steve:Oh, they call me a few different things, but yeah. Yeah. Like, I look really, it's, the leader of the team that that supports our churches across the state. Yeah. That's how I like to think about it.
Steve:Yeah. Yep.
Jonathan:Yeah. We'll get into your story in a little bit, but, can you maybe help people understand what is distinctive about the Baptist denomination? Like, we used to be called a union. Now we're called an association. You say, you know, we we support the ministries of the Baptist churches.
Jonathan:What's the Baptist flavor maybe for someone who's used to other denominations?
Steve:Yeah. Sure. Well, interestingly, when we first came together as churches, we were called the Baptist Association. And then somewhere along the line, it changed the Baptist Union and then decade or so ago, we decided to change it back. And I think part of that was around the fact that we associate together with and we do that voluntarily.
Steve:And we don't do it out of a sense of hierarchy. We don't do it out of a sense of, of duty. But we, we say together we connect around a whole lot of ideals and values and core beliefs and and a sense of, the imperative of mission together. And those are the things that mean we choose to be together, and we choose to do things together that is more than we could do if we went together.
Jonathan:So if Arden was wanting to find a costume to be the pope of Baptist churches, that actually wouldn't exist. Is that
Steve:correct? Exist. Somewhere Not yet. Some somewhere in the, the the archives is a is a stole, which the old presidents used to now what but for those who don't know what a stole is, it's like a glorified scarf, really. Oh.
Steve:That's as fancy as it ever got. Yeah. But it's a long time since
Jonathan:You could get one
Ardin:like this.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If we had a gift shop, they should sell they should sell replicas. That would be great.
Jonathan:Now tell us, what did you do before you were the director of ministries? How what was your role in vocational ministry?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Before that, I actually was already part time with the association helping support church planters. And so I'm director of church planting. And then I was also before that at Morning College, a training college, teaching the area of church planting, evangelism, and and and touring leaders and stuff.
Steve:And before that in local local ministry.
Jonathan:So would you say evangelism was kinda your passion, sort of your your gift mix?
Steve:Yeah. Well, I guess I had, from about my teenage years, a fairly strong sense that God would lead me into some sort of vocational ministry at some point. I didn't know what that looked like. And then as my teenage years sort of, you know, came and almost went, I was fairly sure that that would be pastoral ministry in church ministry. Yeah.
Steve:I I really had a I did have a passion for the church around, you know, like many keen young people involved in the local church really heavily and and loved that and loved the church. And so yeah. But knew that wouldn't happen, that I wasn't ready for that straight after school. So, yeah, there was a bit of a a hiatus before I I, entered training. But I guess the the sense that, love love to have the opportunity to lead a church if that's what God that's what God had for me and didn't really have any preconceived ideas of what that needed to look like.
Steve:But as it happened, we ended up in church planting.
Jonathan:Having been in the training space, having gone through it yourself, and then now being with association and teaching in various points and then leading, have we changed the way we raise up leaders and pastors these these days? Has it changed? If so, how and why?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Great question. Well, the needs have changed. The needs have changed significantly because the the role of being a pastor is quite different to perhaps a generation ago.
Steve:You know, a generation or maybe 2 generations ago, I don't know. There was, you know, if if you could preach well, you could visit well, the deacons would look after the rest, basically. Now I'm not saying I'm not saying it was easy or or simple, but it was perhaps a bit clearer. Yep. And and so we now have responsibilities as as pastors to be to be leading, to be shepherding, to be planning, to be visioning, and to do that in a context that's in a wider community context where we don't automatically have a seat at the table anymore.
Steve:We are on the margins perhaps more than we were. And that's not necessarily a bad thing either, but it's it's just a changing context.
Jonathan:What would you say to somebody who's, you know, maybe been considering? They came to faith not too long ago. They're taking their faith seriously. They're exploring their gifts. They have a desire to make the name of Jesus known far and wide.
Jonathan:And they're they got this thought planted in their head that maybe pastoral ministries for me. How would you counsel somebody like that? Someone who's maybe yet to take that first step into into developing into some of these public leadership roles, in in the church, not just pastoring, but sort of public leadership. How would you encourage them to navigate that that discernment process?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. It's always great to have people who are down the track a bit further from you in, life and in ministry as well. And so, you know, just having a couple of wise heads that you're prepared to be vulnerable with, I think whether that's inside or outside of of your churches, you're trying to assume what's God what's God saying here. I think that's really significant to say yes to opportunities.
Steve:You know? Yeah, sometimes we you know, we're really big as baptist. Every every priesthood of all believers, everybody gets to play. Mhmm. And yet sometimes we can look at some roles and say, I could never I could never do that.
Steve:And so we sort of don't allow ourselves to to experiment with stuff. Or we think that unless I can do it right first time, it mustn't be for me. Well, actually, you develop in your giftedness over time as you allow yourself to be used, and nobody comes in fully fully formed in that. That's the same in in spiritual ministry too. So so, yeah, taking some risks and allowing God to use you in new ways, I think is I think is really is really important.
Steve:I guess the other thing that I'm aware of is that, you know, if you feel a prompting of the Lord around, should I be dipping the toe in to consider pastoral ministry or something to do with church leadership ministry? That is a wonderful thing to be asked to consider. Like, it's it's complex and it has moments. Actually, most vocations do, by the way. But there are some unique ones about being in pastoral ministry.
Steve:But it is a wonderful thing. And and it's an absolute privilege to be able to lead God's people, absolute privilege to journey alongside people as they negotiate what it means to to to have Christ formed in them, you know, over time and and to shepherd a community and all of those things. So so yeah, it's the opportunity to open your eyes and say, yeah, Lord. If you would you choose to use me that way, that would be an awesome privilege to be involved in that.
Jonathan:Going to congregationalism because that's a distinctive of of the Baptist church and back to that question of when it works well. How would you describe the dynamic between, the dynamic of healthy congregationalism where there's discernment among members of a church to then be able to appoint people who are gifted to lead? What does that look like? And I might take some notes as you as you give an answer. Just because I find it expressed so differently in Yes.
Jonathan:In many different churches. But in your opinion, in the healthy spaces, what does it look like for that dynamic to be preserved while also, yeah, recognizing that some are gifted to lead and need to be given the the space to do that?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yes. Well, sometimes there is this misnomer that Baptists are don't like strong leadership or what's not appropriate or it's not what being Baptist is like.
Steve:And and I guess it's true if we go back to go back through our own history that, you know, there are exact certainly examples of Baptist life where it's very sort of covenantal and non hierarchical and all that sort of stuff. And I and there's even something about that nonhierarchical thing that appeals to the Aussie what it means to be Aussie as well in terms of the sort of the egalitarian nature of of Australian society or what we would like to say we are anyway. But, I think when we see it working well, we see the the it's like the 2 the 2 wings of a plane. It's it's like, leadership is honored and and sought out and, set aside carefully and and yet at the same time, it's accountable to the broader body. And those two things are both important.
Steve:And in the midst of that, from both leaders and the wider body, humility. And if those things are in place, I think, I think that's a good start. You know, historically, perhaps we've misunderstood congregational governance to be congregational management. A congregation can't possibly manage more especially in these days, the complexity of organizations now. But it's responsibility under God as we as we those big those big issues of governance that, that still might the process of thinking them through is rightly led by the elected leaders of the church.
Steve:But the but this is part of what it means to be a Baptist. We can't can't run away from our our responsibility as people to be be making those really, really big decisions together.
Jonathan:Take us back to your story, if we pivot a bit out of the Yep. Denomination, discussion. Take us back, little Steve Bartlett. Right? Where'd you grow up?
Jonathan:Where where where are you from? How'd you meet your how'd you meet your wife? And and Yeah. How'd you come to know the Lord? Love to hear a bit about that.
Steve:Sure. Sure. Well, I've lived in Sydney all my life. So I was born in Maryland. So lived and grew up in Maryland, which is near Parramatta.
Steve:And I, I didn't know at the time that my future wife was growing up in Whitfield. So we met each other at high school, and we've been together since then. So that's a very long time ago.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. So I have a distinct memory of being in kindergarten and hearing the east so just on the normal state school, local state school, hearing the Easter story at Easter from my kindergarten teacher who was not a Christian, because back then, Easter was a festival, so you're taught about Easter at Easter time.
Jonathan:And Yep.
Steve:So cool. State school system. And, of course, that was in the context of having grown up in a Christian home and, of that was background in church and whatever. So it's not as if God can't even remember a time where I didn't think about God, but there was something about just hearing it ironically out of the lips of someone who actually wasn't a a professing Christian that that I came home and asked my mom, do I need to do something about this? So I think I was 6 at the time.
Steve:And, and she let me to let me to faith out of that. So, yeah, I guess it's been with me a very a very long time, and I'm very grateful, for that. It was probably, you know, like, perhaps this is not an unusual story, but probably in my teenage years that you asked the questions. Is is this is this where I am because this is the family I grew up in, or is this where I want to be? And, so that was a that was a a helpful and pretty distinctive journey for me.
Steve:And and it was in the those times that the, I guess, the seed was deposited that maybe I'd end up doing something in terms of church leadership in the future.
Ardin:Yeah. Yeah. You're actually in my grandfather's church for a while.
Steve:I was. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Or maybe we should say And
Ardin:look where he is now.
Jonathan:Yeah. Who? Your grandfather?
Steve:I remember well, yes. I remember him teaching me in scripture. I'm, and he had a very good voice, and he used to sing later since singing at school.
Ardin:That sounds like him. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Barbecue Beach.
Steve:But look, the I I have very, very fond memories of I was growing up in quite a conservative at that point, Baptist Church. And I I think one of the things that I most value out of that experience was I was asked at 18 years old to come onto the diaconate. So there were people that were looking out for up and coming, you know, people who they could trust a little bit with and and invite into leadership spaces. And and that was that was pretty significant for me because it spoke into my life and there were people around me, although all men at that point, men around me who, who I could learn from and who I observed and in good conversations and hard conversations. And so, yeah, I just don't underestimate the very significant the significance of the role that we can have in opening up opportunities for people who are coming through.
Steve:Yeah. You don't know where that's gonna lead.
Jonathan:I'm really glad to hear you make that point. I think that's something that's I mean, it it matches with the focus that we're putting on about raising up emerging leaders and and how do we support them. But 18 years old is fantastic. I wanna ask about the hard stuff because I've seen you in a setting, you know, Europe leading assemblies. There've been some hard conversations over the last couple years in the general assembly Yeah.
Jonathan:Of the Baptist churches. And I guess on a personal level, how do you remain so calm? I I watch you. I see I see angry Christians, you know, waving their paper and, you know, raising their voice and, you know, speaking very aggressively. And and these aren't people who have just wandered in off the street.
Jonathan:These are people who are vested, you know, authorities in their local in their local ministry. They have years of experience. How do you navigate that space calmly and sort of without anxiety? I I've I've always wanted to ask you that because I'm like, man, if I was up there, that'd be tough.
Steve:Yes. Well, I mean, yeah, it has had its moments that for for sure. I think I think part of how I'm wired means that that I am perhaps able to be a calming presence in some of those spaces. But what's look, it's it's it's been just a very sense a very clear sense of reliance on the empowering of the spirit. That's not a flippant thing to say.
Steve:It's just I don't actually quite know. But but I think when, I think it's been important to be able to have sort of done a lot of work behind the scenes in team together as as our assembly council has done. And and some of those things that have been difficult have been processed, I've never processed any of them on my own. We've processed them in team. And and so I honor the those others who weren't standing up necessarily the front of assemblies but have done a lot of hard work behind the scenes, a lot of conversations behind the scenes.
Steve:I think to in the end, I have to come to the point where say these people we we are we are brothers and sisters together in here, and we are finding this really difficult to navigate this space. And and these various ones of us are under pressure for reasons that I don't fully understand. And and so they are they aren't setting out they aren't setting out to, to when I say it's well, it's not even really us and them. Like, together, we're not setting out to pull one another down. But when things are held really deeply, then sometimes, we don't express ourselves in the way on in retrospect we would like.
Steve:And I know I've been guilty of that too in the past. So, yeah, it's a it's a constant reminder that, the need to extend grace to one another. And also, of course, we need to ensure that that we are being respectful of one another. And and sometimes that's got a bit strained and we've need to we've need to pull it up. I think if I've had a tricky job, the, you know, the jobs of, Jamie Long and Alan Sibley and those who've chaired those those times together, it's probably been more more difficult than me.
Steve:Exec team saying to me 3 years ago, Steve, my aim is for you still to be standing in
Jonathan:3 years' time.
Steve:And their their prayerful support of me, I have a great head of gratitude to that and to my family as well.
Jonathan:Yeah. And I think
Steve:too that a a recognition that we don't do this in a vacuum. Like, the whole of our community is exercised about this issue in various ways, and and often unable to express it well. So we are seeking to do the best we can to navigate our way forward in the midst of a very highly anxious society around this and a number of other issues. So, that's that's what we swim in. That's the culture we swim in, and we are and we seek to know God's, you know, God's peace and grace in the midst of that.
Ardin:Health has been mentioned a couple of times, church health. I suppose the danger has been that we base a a healthy church purely on numbers. That's a successful church. It's massive. What what are the actual hallmarks of a healthy church?
Ardin:If you walked into 1, could you could you tell, you know, whether it was healthy or unhealthy?
Steve:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well, in the in the thinking we've done around that and how we sort of try and frame that when we're working with churches and leaderships, we think of, you know, what does it look like to be a healthy leader, a healthy congregation, and then a healthy movement. There's there's when it comes to well, at each of those levels and certainly at the church level, there's an internal aspect to that and an external aspect to that.
Steve:So internal health, the the relational health, the governance health, the, the financial health, some of the practical aspects of health. Those some of those aspects of health are internal and, of course, spiritual spiritual fidelity and spiritual health as well. And then there's external, aspects of health, missional health. What what is our witness like in the community? Are we effective in the way we are offering Christ to those around us both in word and word indeed?
Steve:And so it's probably not one thing. It's it feels like it's a it's a a basket of things. And so when we work with churches and a church health team work with churches, we're we're looking at, you know, a number of those dimensions. And and all all of our churches, mine included, there are some legs of the stool are really tall and strong and others are not so tall and perhaps not so strong. And so, you know, what does it look like both to work on those things that might be short legs of the stool for us, but also to celebrate the strengths and actually say, okay.
Steve:Is there something particular here that in this dimension that God has graced you as a community with that you really wanna lean into? So, yeah, I think that's that's some of how we think about church health anyway. Yeah. Our vision as a movement is to be over the next generation to grow to be 1,000 healthy churches, and each one of those words is deliberate. Yep.
Steve:It's a 1,000 healthy churches. Yeah. Really, really important. Yeah.
Jonathan:I might try to wind things down with some rapid fire questions. So just, you know, tell me what what comes to mind. If there's one misconception that you could change about your role, what would it be?
Steve:I think it is that that I spend that I spend my life in difficult conversations. I don't actually spend my life in difficult conversations. I have them, but that's I do a lot more a lot of other stuff that's really, really life giving like this. So yeah.
Jonathan:That's great. Without being specific about any particular church, but thinking about us as a movement as a whole, If there was one aspect of our kind of maturity or health or growth that you could that you could just hit a button and accelerate and just say, oh, it would be really good if we could just as a movement with or as churches, just let's progress in this. What would you say that area would be?
Steve:I've I've been really encouraged since COVID to see any an increased interest in, disciple making, 1 on 1 disciple making, and what it means. And and some will say, well, that's a recovery of of, you know, we used to be really good at that, and then we sort of got away from it a bit and then we're back and whatever. Times are different now and the methods that are gonna be different now. I think I think that was a really needed that is a really needed thing, and and I'm glad I'm glad we're pursuing it. And probably the other thing I I would say is governance health.
Steve:We're in a more complex environment, and, some and and volunteer time is is perhaps as pressured and rare as it ever has been in our churches. So what does it mean for us to do governance well? I think if I could flick a switch and all and all our churches could not be stressed by that and do it really well and effectively, that would actually enhance our missional witness as well.
Jonathan:Last one. You're doing so amazing in this rapid fire. In the interactions that you have with governments and with, you know, other denominations, heads of other denominations, is there a particular distinctive that you feel like really proud of? You're like, hey, you know what? In both across denominations, across across the the people in government, that we interact with.
Jonathan:Our churches are known for this, and I'm just really grateful for that.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. A couple of things come to mind. One is that, you know, now I'm talking about the more Sydney church scene. It's quite tribal.
Steve:It always has been. There are a whole lot of complex reasons for that. But I in my observation, that just have a unique space in the midst of that. But we don't see at one end or the other of all of those tribes. We have lines of communication to many of them, and and we're the 3rd or 4th largest denomination in in Christianity in in the States.
Steve:So that gives us some opportunities to broker conversations and to encourage us to be working together. And I think historically, we've maybe not played in that space as much as we could have. And so, that's sort of a part of what I'm involved in as well. And I think when I speak to so I'm I'm in the New South Wales, Faith Affairs Council, which is a body of 16 people. It's a new initiative by the state government, and I'm there as one of 6 or 7 Christian leaders.
Steve:It's an All Faith Council. And I think as I speak with sort of politicians and some other leaders in that space, they they just understand if they understand Baptists, their experiences of of down to earth people who get on with the job of helping others from the others from the outside community looking in. And we can talk about some of the some of the community stuff that our various churches are involved in. That's a great point of connection, and it is noticed by our wider and wider community. And and I've had politicians talk to me about how I've connected with this baptist church in their electorate, and this is what they're doing.
Steve:And so so we are known perhaps more than we think we are. We do have a voice perhaps more than we've used it in the past. And and I think that gives us some great opportunities positively to play the unique role that we can play.
Ardin:Bam.
Jonathan:Thank you so much, Steve, for joining us. Really appreciate you taking the time.
Ardin:Yeah. It was great. Thank you.
Steve:That's a pleasure. Thanks for thanks for inviting me to be part of it.
Ardin:Oh, what a blessing it was to have Stevie.
Jonathan:It really was. I wish, you know, we could've talked longer, but, he's a guy who has a very unique vantage point of what's going on in our association, and I hope people are listening carefully. I know I learned a lot and and I hope other people, yeah, really appreciate it as well. And I think one thing that is probably missed is in sort of the tribal nature of denominations. Down Baptist as to, oh, it's this specific thing.
Jonathan:But, actually, part of being Baptist is holding the breath and recognizing that the autonomy of the local church means that it encompasses a breath. And when the church gets bigger like ours is then the breath will will inherently get bigger as well.
Ardin:Awesome. Good stuff. Well, I guess we will see you on moving day.
Jonathan:Yes. And before we go, shameless plug. Keep the music going. My son is in Aladdin.
Ardin:In Aladdin?
Jonathan:Fantasia Showstoppers. Go check him out. Tickets online.