Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
Learn how to get more results with less effort and:
Grow faster over time.
Work less hard over time.
Make more money over time.
[00:00:00] Nathan Barry: What are the financial goals for the business?
[00:00:01] Corina Holden: I would love to pay myself like 200 K.
[00:00:04] Nathan Barry: I feel like we should set a bigger goal than that.
[00:00:06] Corina Holden: Bigger goal. Okay.
[00:00:07] Nathan Barry: My guest today is Corina Holden, who's a mom of five, who runs an amazing business, helping women take the guesswork out of getting dressed. How much revenue total have you made?
[00:00:16] Corina Holden: We, we hit 2 million.
[00:00:18] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:00:18] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:00:18] Nathan Barry: If someone was just starting out, what advice would you give them?
[00:00:21] Corina Holden: Don't spend a lot of money on specific ads. Just go wide with lots of angles and see what resonates with your audience. Funny enough, the creatives that have done the best is really like, it's like the easiest thing to do.
[00:00:32] Corina Holden: That's how you stand out. And with all the advertising now.
[00:00:34] Nathan Barry: We have a bunch to dive into in your business. So let's hop up at the board and diagram it all. What do you most want to scale up?
[00:00:41] Corina Holden: I would love to increase the recurring revenue. I don't mind hustling for a short period of time, but I want to be like really present for my kids.
[00:00:49] Nathan Barry: What I want to do is a flywheel based on ideas from our audience, metrics and testing, total number of subscribers, and then revenue attributed. And you can just keep refining that system, which will keep your time involved very low.
[00:01:02] Corina Holden: Okay.
[00:01:07] Nathan Barry: Welcome to the show.
[00:01:08] Corina Holden: Thank you. So excited to be here. It's a little bit surreal.
[00:01:12] Nathan Barry: Yeah. You were saying that you regularly listen to the show.
[00:01:14] Corina Holden: Yeah. Every single one.
[00:01:16] Nathan Barry: So I wanted to come on to dive into your business, give listeners a little bit of an intro to your business.
[00:01:21] Corina Holden: So, um, I basically help women to optimize their wardrobes and get more out of it.
[00:01:27] Corina Holden: Um, get confident with how they dress. So it's very much about, you know, helping you feel confident in your clothes. Um, but. It just costs them money to get my resources and they do save money in the long run, but I have to, it's a little bit harder to convince them to invest in, in what I have to offer. So, um, it's done well though.
[00:01:49] Corina Holden: I think that we've kind of nailed the pain point and because I'm, I'm my ideal customer, like I understand exactly the struggles they have. So that's what I do.
[00:02:00] Nathan Barry: Yeah. Some of the, that I've said many times in the past is to teach a skill that makes money to people who have money. And that is the most direct path to like, uh, you know, earning a full time living as a, as a creator.
[00:02:13] Nathan Barry: And there's all kinds of amazing communities and creators that have come out, um, separate from that. Like on kit, we have creators doing a huge range of things. Like one of my favorites is a creator who has an entire website dedicated to birdwatching and he earned a great living from that site. Uh, but it's just harder, right?
[00:02:34] Nathan Barry: Because you tend to not earn as much. From each customer, your price points tend to be lower. I'm curious, what are some of those things that you've run into as you've, uh, you know, built your business that other people who are, you know, not in the skill that makes money to people who have money category might run into as well.
[00:02:51] Corina Holden: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little bit like, um, I remember one of your episodes, I think you are like in a panel with maybe your mastermind friends and they were talking about. Like a smart way to start a business. Yeah. It's like swim, you know, just dance, like just go with the flow. And I'm very much upstream.
[00:03:08] Corina Holden: I'm, I'm a lot of women don't realize just how frustrated they are by clothes. And so I have to sort of make them aware. Um, and then also show them how what I offer can help them. Um, so it's taken a little bit of time to figure that angle out, but, um, I think the business really started with that set of people that were very aware of their problem already.
[00:03:34] Corina Holden: And as we've grown, we've expanded by making people aware of the problem.
[00:03:39] Nathan Barry: What was the gap between. Very first thinking, you know, you love this topic, you know, you can help people to then like stepping into the world of content creation.
[00:03:49] Corina Holden: Okay. Well, actually, um, it was always a struggle for me. I never felt like an expert in it.
[00:03:54] Corina Holden: Okay. Yeah. No. So I started basically as a blog, you know, I was like, let me try to make money from home. I thought, Oh, maybe I can just surveys on swag bucks or whatever, make some money. And then I came across, Oh, you can make money with blogging. So I started as a blog and like, what,
[00:04:09] Nathan Barry: what year is this?
[00:04:10] Corina Holden: Um, this was 2016, so I was pregnant with my second, you know, dealing with morning sickness and everything, but I'm like, I, I need a challenge.
[00:04:17] Corina Holden: I need, I, you know, I was done with my. Full time work and so I was like I I want to be a stay at home parent, but I need a challenge now and I always liked clothes and uh shopping and stuff, but I felt like If I put on a good outfit, it was by chance and I didn't like that feeling I was like, that's really frustrating.
[00:04:36] Corina Holden: There's got to be a way to systematize this um, I have always been driven by Efficiency and systems and I just that's just the way I think So I figured I can niche down to that and come up with a system that will help me, um, and then ends up, it's helping lots of people, but so, uh, from the blog, I think a year in, I didn't even think of it as a business.
[00:05:01] Corina Holden: I just thought I'd make money with ads on the blog. It wasn't until I did, um, Todd Herman's 90 day year. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I need to think of this as a business and I need to call it work time, not like project time or whatever. So I created a guidebook and it was just sold it as a new book and that was our first product.
[00:05:20] Corina Holden: So gone from there.
[00:05:21] Nathan Barry: I always think that the first dollars that you make selling products, you know, where you're like, wait a second, this was disconnected from my time. Disconnected from your time. Not in a good way where you're like, I spent a hundred hours on this and it made me 10, but wait a second.
[00:05:35] Nathan Barry: There's something about, you know, it made me 500. I just
[00:05:37] Corina Holden: need more people.
[00:05:38] Nathan Barry: Yeah. And you're like, wait a second. I can sell this again. And again, there's a creator that I really admire. His name is Jack butcher. And he has this phrase of build once, sell twice, which I feel like just sums up that leverage so well when you're like, wait a second, you know, the VA services, your has a direct correlation, the, the digital product, you're like, wait a second, I can run this through more and more people.
[00:06:00] Corina Holden: Yeah, exactly. So,
[00:06:01] Nathan Barry: so if we fast forward a little bit, we want to get into all the details of the business, but at a high level, um, maybe how much revenue total have you made over the last like four or five years?
[00:06:14] Corina Holden: We, we hit 2 million.
[00:06:15] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:06:16] Corina Holden: Yeah. So that's pretty exciting. I actually didn't realize that until recently.
[00:06:19] Corina Holden: And I was like,
[00:06:20] Nathan Barry: that's cool. That was
[00:06:21] Corina Holden: like, Oh, let me actually look at QuickBooks all time.
[00:06:23] Nathan Barry: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Corina Holden: You
[00:06:24] Nathan Barry: know? Oh, that's amazing.
[00:06:25] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Nathan Barry: I mean, to, to hit 1 million and there's a huge, like very, very few creators, you know, if you think of everyone who sets out on this journey, very few get to that point, but then, you know, to double that is pretty amazing.
[00:06:37] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:06:38] Nathan Barry: Uh, and so now from the numbers we were talking about, like, what are you at the last few years? So
[00:06:42] Corina Holden: 2023, we've made 375 K, um, revenue. And then so far this year we're at, uh, 255 K. That's awesome. So yeah.
[00:06:51] Nathan Barry: Yeah. And one thing that you've really mastered that I think is really interesting is paid ads and you've been able to do a lot through that.
[00:06:59] Nathan Barry: So in a second, I want to get into like what you'd say to someone who's been purely in the world of organic and thinking about getting into ads. Yeah. But before that, what did it look like scaling from, you know, the 300, 500, 500, 500 That, you know, first few months to, you know, your first 10, 000 or first 50, 000 in sales.
[00:07:18] Corina Holden: Yeah. I think it was basically, um, selling to continue to grow my list. You know, those first couple of years I was really good at, um, staying focused on Pinterest, brought really good traffic, continue to write blog posts before Google let AI take over, you know, giving answers for people. And I've definitely seen that dip, but, um, I just stayed focused on creating great content, like really good blog posts, you know, uh, every time that I wrote a topic, I made sure it was the best out there, you know, on like ways to wear your burgundy pants or whatever.
[00:07:50] Corina Holden: Um, and so that brought in, yeah, our, our traffic, um, increase and I made sure to always have an opt in that was either general or related. Um, and I was on kit, I think since. Probably 2017 or so. Okay. That's when I joined. Yeah.
[00:08:07] Nathan Barry: Those early days.
[00:08:08] Corina Holden: Yeah. I, well, I knew, I, I think what really convinced me to switch, I think I started with MailerLite, but what made me switch is it was like you were talking directly to me and you're like this.
[00:08:20] Corina Holden: I think you talked a lot about how. If you have lots of opt ins for lots of different blog posts, you need something like it. And I was like, yeah, that's me because I think I even played around with MailChimp on one point and it was horrible for that. It was so complicated. So I, I tried out kit and I just loved how you could have so many forms and it was all still really organized.
[00:08:39] Corina Holden: It wasn't complicated. You can track conversion rates and all of those
[00:08:42] Nathan Barry: things. Okay. So then scaling it up. So search traffic, Pinterest, those are the main things.
[00:08:49] Corina Holden: Yes. And then I think it was 2018 or so that I took a course on ads and it was, um, from brilliant business moms. Shout out. I love them. Um, they, as she, she has a course, um, on ads and I took that and I mean, it was super successful back then.
[00:09:06] Corina Holden: It's a little harder now, but still a great way to bring in new leads profitably. So around then that really skyrocketed our growth list growth.
[00:09:15] Nathan Barry: Let's dive into that. What are you getting? You know, like, what are you seeing on it for a return on ad spend?
[00:09:22] Corina Holden: Yeah. So, um, like upfront we can get 1. 3 up to 1. 6 and sometimes better.
[00:09:30] Corina Holden: Um, because we do, uh, if we offer a lead magnet, like a freebie, we have a trip wire and the funnel afterwards. Um, and then we do a lot of direct to sales as well. And those also do well. I mean, it's kind of like half and half. They both do well,
[00:09:44] Nathan Barry: what's the price point on either the tripwire or the direct to sales?
[00:09:48] Corina Holden: It's, um, 21 for like option one. And then, cause I know you liked your pricing. Yeah, no, we really saw a huge increase when we did two options and most people take the higher option, which is only 27, but it adds a few more things. Um, so like the discount is huge when you look at the option too. So most people take the 27 and then we have a bump and an upsell.
[00:10:10] Corina Holden: And, um, so all in all, I think. If someone takes all of it, it might be like 70 or 80. A lot of people do take all of those options.
[00:10:19] Nathan Barry: Yeah. So there's a, you can spend a good amount to make, like you have enough margin. It's not like you're selling a 10 or, you know, a 10 or 20 product by itself. You know, starting in the mid twenties and then going up from there.
[00:10:32] Corina Holden: Yeah. And so like it's, it's worked pretty well for us to actually have sort of, you talk about like the strip mall versus a skyscraper and, and that's something where I'm trying to decide how much to focus on the one, you know, now we have a SAS product, um, it, but it's, it's been neat to have several products that really work well together because it allows us to have all these different levels of, of bumps and upsells.
[00:10:52] Nathan Barry: Well, you, yeah, you can pay quite a bit more for a lead than someone who just has that one product. Yeah.
[00:10:55] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:10:56] Nathan Barry: I want to get into the full business model in a second, but if someone was just starting out or let's say they have an established business and making 100, 000 to 200, 000 a year on, uh, their content business, everything's organic, they're selling digital products.
[00:11:11] Nathan Barry: Um, and thinking like, okay, I want to get into ads. I'm thinking about that. Where would you, what advice would you give them?
[00:11:19] Corina Holden: Well, definitely take a course. Um, you'll, uh, you'll learn so much faster that way. Um, and then, you know, just focus on that for a while. I mean, that plus maybe the other essentials in your business, but just focus on that for a few months.
[00:11:33] Corina Holden: Cause the payoff is incredible. Like it's totally worth it. And if you master it, as you know, your business, the best, um, don't like, Don't hand it off to an agency too quick.
[00:11:43] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:11:44] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:11:44] Nathan Barry: So most people would probably start with an agency and say, I don't know what I'm doing here. And you're saying,
[00:11:48] Corina Holden: I know, oh, you know, time and time again, I hear from even people who now it's full time agency, they first mastered it and they got really good at it.
[00:11:56] Corina Holden: And then they told the agency, this is what works. Okay. Putting fuel on the fire at that point.
[00:12:03] Nathan Barry: What's an example of something that, you know, or maybe a few things that you tried and then didn't work and then, you know, what actually ended up working?
[00:12:10] Corina Holden: Um, so I think figuring out that actually the creative on the ads can be interesting.
[00:12:17] Corina Holden: And I just, I just came across some, uh, another course that teaches you how to rapidly test things. And so it's been, A little more obvious to see, like, Oh, this is why these ads don't seem to do as well because you can rapidly test, like, 20 types of creatives that are all drastically different and see the different, like, reactions to that without spending a ton, um, and then just nail in on the ones that work well, but funny enough, um, the, the creatives that have done the best is really, like, A selfie unedited of me holding my product or even the freebie version of it.
[00:12:50] Corina Holden: Okay. I mean, it's like the easiest thing to do and it's kind of embarrassing because often it's just like me doing this like, wow, thing on a selfie. Um, but that's like, I can just. Get my, you know, cause customers, I can pay them to send me a selfie of them holding the product. So it makes it really easy, but I think, um, it looks really authentic in the feed, like it doesn't jump out as an ad.
[00:13:12] Corina Holden: Um, so that's done well. Another thing that's surprising is also really easy is just basically a bold statement. It's like my brand color pink. And then in black, a bold statement, like there are tons of outfits waiting to be discovered in your closet. Use this to find them. Um, so video has also done well, but I think it's more for like retargeting when people have seen it.
[00:13:35] Corina Holden: And then the video shows them like, this is what it is. And then it really pulls. There
[00:13:39] Nathan Barry: might be some more curiosity, you know, downstream and
[00:13:43] Corina Holden: maybe they didn't click the first time cause they're like, uh, I doubt that would work. But then the video kind of breaks down and shows them how it works. Um, with their closet and so then it, you know, pulls them in.
[00:13:54] Corina Holden: So that's, that's been interesting to see, you know, you have to, you have to test lots of things. Don't spend a lot of money on specific ads just because you're sure that, well, it took me like 10 hours to make this video. It's got, it's got to work. Well, no, don't like, don't go, don't go deep until you've gone wide.
[00:14:10] Corina Holden: That's one of the courses I took. They talk about that. Just go wide with lots of drastic angles and see what resonates with your audience. Um, and then, then spend more time on that specific type of
[00:14:20] Nathan Barry: the selfie one resonates with me. Uh, my friend Tim Grawl was talking about, you know, he teaches workshops for writers.
[00:14:26] Nathan Barry: And he said that he's tested all the different ad creative and all of this. And the one that did the best is him holding up a sticky note.
[00:14:33] Corina Holden: Yeah. It's
[00:14:33] Nathan Barry: him and the sticky note and says free, free writer's workshop. I think is what the sticky notes. You know,
[00:14:41] Corina Holden: which is good news. You know, I think we have, we have, um, we have to stand out.
[00:14:45] Corina Holden: That's how you stand out in with all the advertising now. Um, so many things look like ads and so somehow you just need to feel more like, Oh, I'm not being advertised to.
[00:14:55] Nathan Barry: Right. Yeah. And that's interesting. So it pulls them in. Cause I would fall into that trap of like trying to make super advanced creative or like, you know, we got to this.
[00:15:01] Nathan Barry: And I've done that. And it's like so
[00:15:02] Corina Holden: disappointing when it doesn't work out and you're like, I spent all this time.
[00:15:05] Nathan Barry: I spent thousands of dollars and yeah, the three minute selfie. Outperformed it
[00:15:12] Corina Holden: crazy.
[00:15:13] Nathan Barry: Which is, I mean, that's a really good news, you know, a really good sign if you just, you're like, Hey, I wanna try this out.
[00:15:19] Nathan Barry: 'cause it's like, actually the, the barrier to entry is, is quite low.
[00:15:22] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:15:23] Nathan Barry: Where you, you're just have to be willing to dive in and try something.
[00:15:26] Corina Holden: Another thing I would say is really important, um, is to make sure that you are, you have a product that sells well, which you'll know that from your list. Yeah.
[00:15:35] Corina Holden: Um, so. Don't start running ads until you have like a proven offer and also that your sales page or your opt in Page converts well, yeah, because you don't want to start putting money into something that doesn't work on its own organically. So yeah, definitely Spending time it it's like I feel like that's the hardest part because you you just want to jump in and start you know making money from from your ads, but it's kind of becomes like a Printing money, right?
[00:16:02] Corina Holden: If you said, you know, if you're willing to spend enough time on it and, and, and refine it and find what wins, but, um, yeah, making sure that once you're paying for people, it's just a matter of getting more eyes on it, the right audience on it, the right creative, and they will convert to subscribers or customers at some point.
[00:16:21] Nathan Barry: Okay. So how important is having the order bumps and the. You know, a tripwire product and things like that to run an ad successfully.
[00:16:31] Corina Holden: I think it's very important Um every time that I've and I've actually heard this from my friends that run ads as well like similar Low priced products to people who don't make money from it And when they've increased the price of their upsells actually do better.
[00:16:45] Corina Holden: They sell more Okay. They sell more of them. And I haven't taken the time because I have to update the price in lots of different places if I do that. But that's an interesting point. Um, but yeah, I think you'll see, you'll see your return on ad spend really go up if you, um, just make sure they're, they're tied and relevant, you know?
[00:17:02] Corina Holden: Yeah. But, um, having all those options. And so I have one bump. And I think it's only like 17 bucks. Yeah, the bump is, but it's, you know, it's, it helps them figure out what looks good on their body shape. So it's very tightly related. Um, and then two upsells.
[00:17:20] Nathan Barry: Well, actually, so within that context, you have one of your products right here.
[00:17:24] Nathan Barry: And so I'd love to see it. And yeah, I
[00:17:27] Corina Holden: think it's just like really visual for people. It's our what to wear outfit calendar. And I think that the name also just draws out like, because women are like, I have a closet full of clothes and nothing to wear. So what do I wear? So, um, it basically takes, I, I, I created a system and this product, the actual calendar, Was very much based on customers telling me they wanted it.
[00:17:47] Corina Holden: And I resisted for a long time because I had a book that was more like an encyclopedia of all the possible outfits you could create. Okay. And I liked that book and I was like, this is what you guys need. This is just like an add on, you know, but this is what they wanted because they're
[00:18:02] Nathan Barry: like, make it easy.
[00:18:03] Corina Holden: It's laid out. Yeah. It's laid out for them. So it was just funny. This like resistance sometimes to letting go of something that you started with. Um, but, uh, yeah, so it's, That's this has is our entry point product people understand how
[00:18:18] Nathan Barry: much do you sell it for
[00:18:19] Corina Holden: full price? it's like 49 for the PDF and then 65 or something like that for the for the hard copy But in ads we discount it to 21 for the PDF 27 with a few add ons and we just sell the, that's the other thing with ads.
[00:18:34] Corina Holden: If you, um, have like a hard copy version, sometimes it gets a little bit complicated with the cost of goods sold and everything. And so we, we, we sell the hard copy as an add on later.
[00:18:46] Nathan Barry: Okay. Um,
[00:18:46] Corina Holden: so we just do digital to keep it really clear. That way you have the
[00:18:49] Nathan Barry: margins.
[00:18:49] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:18:50] Nathan Barry: So in that, if like, just walk through, you know, hard to come in and I see an ad to buy one of your products.
[00:18:56] Nathan Barry: What's the What are the different upsells or bumps that I'm going to see in that process?
[00:19:00] Corina Holden: Yeah. So, well, um, let's talk about like the freebie that I offer. Cause I, I, I really think also another important thing that's worked for us with ads is, um, our freebie is a one month preview of this. So instead of 12 months of.
[00:19:13] Corina Holden: Outfits laid out for you. It's one month. And so it's like, if it's in spring or summer weeks, we send them one from spring. And right now it's one from fall. Um, and so it's really tight. So let's just say that you sign up for that free month. Um, we have a trip wire right after they sign up that offers that same offer that we do.
[00:19:30] Corina Holden: When we do a direct to sales ad. Okay. Yeah. The 21 and 27 offer. Um, so let's say you don't buy at that point, but we were sending you a welcome sequence, um, that walks you through our, our framework. So we have a front fighters frame framework where I systematized it, you know, early on, cause I went, needed to figure out how to like demystifies fashion and not make it by chance.
[00:19:50] Corina Holden: Um, so we walk them through how to use that, that one month and make them aware of how. You can be stylish without having personal fashion savvy. Like this is how these are the simple steps. And it doesn't matter where you are in your style journey. It doesn't matter what you have in your closet. We're going to start from there and we're not going to start by shopping.
[00:20:09] Corina Holden: Um, so we just really like try to empower them with those first, uh, welcome emails. And then we do offer, um, right away. We do offer for, I think it's like 36 hours. This maybe it's slightly less of a good offer than the trip wire, but a discounted offer again to, to buy. Not a lot of people buy at that point from what I can tell.
[00:20:32] Corina Holden: Um, I just fixed it though. The timer wasn't working and I, and so, you know, people didn't have the chance to buy, but I don't think a lot of people buy at that point if they didn't buy it initially from the trip wire. So they just need a lot of warming up. Um, but. We'll continue to introduce them to other value content.
[00:20:48] Corina Holden: I mean, like my welcome sequence right now goes for two and a half months, I think.
[00:20:52] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:20:53] Corina Holden: And I, but every email is just how often do you
[00:20:55] Nathan Barry: send emails?
[00:20:56] Corina Holden: Um, every three to four days. That's the other thing. I got a lot of feedback there. I tend to have a lot of moms that, that buy the product or, or join the list and they're busy.
[00:21:05] Corina Holden: And so they usually don't catch up with emails every single day. And so if they were getting one every day, they were just overwhelmed. So I got that feedback a lot. And honestly, when I signed up for my own thing, I was overwhelmed trying to read my emails. I was like, this is too many. So it is spread out, but I've found that that allows them to take in more of what we offer to make them, um, more of a candidate to purchase a whole product because it just prepares them.
[00:21:29] Corina Holden: So, um, and we do offer, you know, tell them about some of our other products, um, every fourth email or so. Um, with a discount discounts work really well for my audience. Again, they tend to be very like budget conscience. Uh, so I've, I've done sales where, um, I do less of a discount. You know, so I should be making more per sale, but it's always the more heavily discounted sales that I make more just interesting.
[00:21:57] Corina Holden: So, yeah. Um, and so, uh, at some point we, Oh, we also do, you know, they, they just drop into our regular newsletter sequence and we do us a site wide promotion or specific promotions regularly. Um, so a lot of people will buy at that, but often when I track customer journeys, I have a lot of people that bought and I looked them up in kit and they unsubscribed like last month.
[00:22:24] Corina Holden: And then they literally Googled me and bought later. So they might've seen an ad
[00:22:29] Nathan Barry: or something in their life, prompting their life.
[00:22:32] Corina Holden: They're like, I need to go back to front fighters. Yeah. So that's been really interesting. There's just lots of, I have a lot of people that it's literally years before they buy anything and then they buy it all.
[00:22:42] Nathan Barry: Yeah. And then you were saying the total audience size. You have about 60, 000 people on your newsletter now. Yeah.
[00:22:47] Corina Holden: I just trimmed it. So I think we're at 55, 000.
[00:22:49] Nathan Barry: Okay. Yeah. When do you, a lot of people wonder about this. So when do you think about trimming your list versus all that? Cause, cause you keep it very tightly.
[00:22:56] Nathan Barry: I do.
[00:22:57] Corina Holden: It's painful. And so I realized that I need to automate it, which I love that you guys had like an, um, automation to keep your list clean. And so I just set that up, but I set it up also to do it basically. Yeah. in the first two years to, to run and clean people out. Um, and then that way only like once a year, I'm going to manually clean out cold subscribers, but it's just such a painful thing to do.
[00:23:20] Corina Holden: So I rather just have a lot of people being unsubscribed automatically, um, constantly than having
[00:23:25] Nathan Barry: to have a big job,
[00:23:26] Corina Holden: big drop. Yeah. It's also annoying because it skews everything visually. Um, so yeah, Yeah. So I just have that automation run and um, it's nice to have that set up. Yeah. But yeah, so I think our open rates are like 60% now and I don't, that's too, um, usually cold subscribers taken out, which are very few now.
[00:23:45] Corina Holden: And, um, I don't send to the people in the welcome sequence. Yeah,
[00:23:49] Nathan Barry: that makes sense. It
[00:23:50] Corina Holden: means good open rates and engagement, so
[00:23:53] Nathan Barry: I like it. Well, we have a bunch to dive into in your business Yeah. That you wanna talk about with the SaaS app. Uh. different directions that you can go. So let's hop up at the board and, uh, diagram it all.
[00:24:04] Corina Holden: Let's do it.
[00:24:05] Nathan Barry: Okay. So you said over this graph of your revenue and revenue, net income, and meta ad spend over time. What do you say we try to recreate it on the board? Okay.
[00:24:15] Corina Holden: Let's do it. Yeah.
[00:24:18] Nathan Barry: Let's make a big graph. All right. So what revenue are we at for 2020?
[00:24:23] Corina Holden: Yeah. So about 250. So
[00:24:25] Nathan Barry: let's go. And then 2021 for revenue?
[00:24:29] Corina Holden: Um, so, yeah, same, pretty much.
[00:24:32] Nathan Barry: Here we go, 2022.
[00:24:34] Corina Holden: 2022 was 650.
[00:24:36] Nathan Barry: Alright, so that's actually all the way up.
[00:24:38] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:24:39] Nathan Barry: At the top of my graph. And then 2023.
[00:24:43] Corina Holden: We're like 375.
[00:24:45] Nathan Barry: Alright. And then I think,
[00:24:48] Corina Holden: I think probably around 320. projected for this year.
[00:24:55] Nathan Barry: All right. Um, okay. And then let's switch because I think it's really interesting to get like ad spend.
[00:25:03] Nathan Barry: Ad spend and profit tell really interesting stories. Yes. I'm just going to draw at a very high level the same graph that you have on ad spend. So like, we'll go, you were somewhere.
[00:25:15] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:25:16] Nathan Barry: And then profit follows a fairly similar pattern.
[00:25:20] Corina Holden: Yeah. So, um, 2020 was like half, half the revenue.
[00:25:26] Nathan Barry: So I don't know. I'll do.
[00:25:27] Corina Holden: Similar 2021. And then jump up to like, um, 200 in 2022
[00:25:34] Nathan Barry: and just at a high level, we'll,
[00:25:36] Corina Holden: yeah,
[00:25:37] Nathan Barry: that's a pretty consistent. So more profit, it's not quite to scale or anything like that, but that gives a high level example. Um, I'll give that back to you. So, so walking through it. In the business, what we've had is significant revenue all the way along, but then this big spike in 2022, the very clearly comes from you spending significantly more in ads.
[00:25:59] Nathan Barry: And then you have a good, my graph doesn't make it seem as obvious. You have a good spike in net income. You earned a good amount more in 2022, but not a huge amount more. Yeah. Just thinking about running that business, like it's 2022, a year that you want to recreate or was that?
[00:26:17] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:26:18] Nathan Barry: Yeah.
[00:26:19] Corina Holden: I think I kind of assumed because ads didn't do as well in 2023, I kind of assumed like, Oh.
[00:26:27] Corina Holden: I won't be able to recreate that. But as I've, I've taken back control of it. Um, you know, I still have an agency running on one account, but I've gone to another account and I'm testing things out. I realized there is a potential there.
[00:26:39] Nathan Barry: So you, you were running ads back here and then you realized you could scale it up later on.
[00:26:45] Corina Holden: I think that around here, I actually didn't, I didn't run them because I, they just kind of stopped working for me. I didn't give enough attention to them. It hasn't been until the really this year and a little bit last year that I realized. The direct correlation. I was like, even though profit margins are lower.
[00:27:01] Corina Holden: And when you look at the P and L and you're like, I'm spending this much on advertising that didn't seem healthy when kind of the general averages are given. But the reality is it's growing my list with buyers and it shows in, in like, well, immediate, immediate revenue, but also the trickle effect of people.
[00:27:18] Corina Holden: They have so much more to buy after the initial product. So
[00:27:21] Nathan Barry: yeah, that makes sense. So really, cause you're noticing a few things in the ads. There's both. like what you're doing, what your market is doing. And then there's macro, the macro environment of meta and everything else, you know, what you're spending money on for ads.
[00:27:34] Nathan Barry: Are you, are you running meta ads or
[00:27:36] Corina Holden: it's meta ads.
[00:27:38] Nathan Barry: Um, and so, so it sounds like you've had some years that ads worked well and you scaled up and then what was working, stopped working. Yeah. You scaled back. I
[00:27:49] Corina Holden: just backed off. I was like, okay, let's, I was, I was spending time refining the business. Um, Making our products better and, and that was a good thing to spend time on, but, um, I'm refocusing on leads because that's my one.
[00:28:02] Corina Holden: bottleneck. I, I convert my customers pretty well. Um, I, I think that really 20%, um, will, will purchase something within a couple of years.
[00:28:14] Nathan Barry: Yeah.
[00:28:14] Corina Holden: So, um, I just had to get more people in the door
[00:28:17] Nathan Barry: and then diving in to talk about your subscription software company and that product. Um, first just tell us about what that does.
[00:28:27] Corina Holden: What our Outfit Calendar does is it, it breaks down what are the basics in a wardrobe. So like, we just categorize basic pieces so that everyone, really regardless of what they have in their closet now, can figure that out. And then, they're able to identify what are the gaps in their wardrobe, right? And then we create numbers for every single kind of outfit you can create from those basics.
[00:28:49] Corina Holden: So that's what our outfit calendar does. Well, what people wanted was to be able to see those outfits with their clothes in it and shuffle through the different options. You probably have more than one neutral tea, you know? Um, and so that's what our platform does. So it's, I think we launched in 2021, but it's been like profitable from the start.
[00:29:10] Corina Holden: So we just, Um, I just have a developer that we have, uh, amount of budget allocated and, um, yeah, like a lot of people joined initially because they were so excited. They had been asking for this for a long time. And I just assumed a mobile app, there's just so much that goes into that and maintenance. But then when I kind of considered the option of a web app starting that way and sort of thinking of it as my prototype.
[00:29:34] Corina Holden: So if, if we do build a mobile app at some point. We've got a perfectly built out. We know that people want it, how we want it to work.
[00:29:43] Nathan Barry: So let's get into some of the numbers from it. So I'm just going to say for the software, what's the price point?
[00:29:52] Corina Holden: So, um, right now to join at what we call the basic level is 39.
[00:29:58] Corina Holden: Okay. And that, no, that is a one time fee. So we have a one time fee, um, to be able to join. And that gives you like the, um, non, uh, customizable version of the features where you just have like the default calendar, it's not based on your weather. You can't like save customized versions of your outfit. You don't see what the community sharing for their outfits and that kind of thing.
[00:30:21] Corina Holden: But, but it's still really cool, like hands on and, um, You know, a digital checklist that's interactive and stuff like that. And then we have a premium level, which is our subscription. And that unlocks a lot of features of customizing, creating your, you know, custom calendar, a Facebook group now. And that one we have a monthly and yearly.
[00:30:40] Corina Holden: And monthly it's, It's, uh, 7. 97 per month, full price, and, uh, 77 annual, I believe. So that's the subscription, yeah.
[00:30:51] Nathan Barry: What's the breakdown, do you know, of what people choose between monthly and annual?
[00:30:55] Corina Holden: Um, I think it's pretty split, uh, half and half, and then we, we offer like a small amount of lifetime options where it's 1.
[00:31:02] Corina Holden: 97, um, and they pay once, um, and that's really just Fund our development.
[00:31:09] Nathan Barry: And then, so what's the total like monthly recurring revenue from this right now?
[00:31:13] Corina Holden: So annually it's, um, about 30 K. And I think that that's just like 15 or 20 percent of our, of our overall revenue, because a lot of people, um, you know, since we're running profitable ads, a lot of people start with, with our like PDF version.
[00:31:32] Nathan Barry: Well, yeah, that's the first thing that you're running is. Getting a 1. 3 ROAS.
[00:31:37] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:31:38] Nathan Barry: I was asking before we were recording, like over what time period and you're like,
[00:31:42] Corina Holden: right away,
[00:31:43] Nathan Barry: right? Immediately. And coming from the software world, I'm like, no, we have like a six month payback period or much longer, but because you're leading with digital products, uh, you can do that in an incredible way.
[00:31:56] Nathan Barry: What, so what's your goal for the business? What do you, like, what do you most want to scale up or, or change?
[00:32:02] Corina Holden: I would love to increase, um, Sales of the, the, the SAS product. Um, I feel like our pricing model might be a little bit confusing because there's another aspect that comes into this, um, that we can talk about.
[00:32:13] Corina Holden: But, um, I'd, yeah, I love to, for the, the recurring revenue to be a lot higher. Um, just for stability in the business. Um, and it really is what offers people the very best experience.
[00:32:28] Nathan Barry: So we want to increase recurring.
[00:32:34] Corina Holden: Um, and so that's, that's like one of the primary roles and goals in, in the overall goal of increasing, um, how much I pay myself,
[00:32:44] Nathan Barry: which
[00:32:44] Corina Holden: is partly with revenue, but it's largely the profit margin too.
[00:32:48] Nathan Barry: Yeah. So what's like, what are the financial goals for the business?
[00:32:51] Corina Holden: Um, I, Would love to like for the next maybe To yeah, probably next to your goal to pay myself like 200k. Okay, um and And then go up from there, but I very much want to keep the business lean I'm not super interested in having another employee.
[00:33:09] Corina Holden: I do have several virtual assistants I think have like five right now maybe put together. They are a full time person, but I like it that way And I want to be able to maintain that. So I want to keep the business really lean. Um, profit margins of like 25 to 30 percent minimum.
[00:33:27] Nathan Barry: So the, you said the take home of 200k, you're at like 120 for 2024 right now?
[00:33:32] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:33:33] Nathan Barry: I feel like we should set a bigger goal than that.
[00:33:35] Corina Holden: Bigger goal? Okay.
[00:33:36] Nathan Barry: 250?
[00:33:37] Corina Holden: Yeah, sure.
[00:33:38] Nathan Barry: Would that be like really meaningful in your life?
[00:33:41] Corina Holden: Oh, absolutely. It's already like what I take home now is, is hugely impactful. So, um, it would be amazing. Yeah.
[00:33:48] Nathan Barry: So I think getting to that 250, 000 plus, it just sounds good.
[00:33:54] Nathan Barry: You're like, yeah, but you know, business made half a million last year, you know, three quarters and take home a quarter million. It's not bad. Yeah. It has a nice ring to it.
[00:34:03] Corina Holden: It does.
[00:34:05] Nathan Barry: Um, okay. So we're increasing recurring and then increasing the take home. The reason I love increasing the recurring, it's actually when I made my switch.
[00:34:12] Nathan Barry: Well, or early transition from, you know, digital products, courses, all of that into software is I wanted, I really craved that recurring revenue because you'd see these spikes from a launch or something else. And then you're like, but the mortgage kind of just does this, it'd be nice if the revenue stayed consistent.
[00:34:29] Nathan Barry: And it,
[00:34:30] Corina Holden: and it's like, it can be just burnout to have to every month bring in a certain amount to reach your goals. And new customers, right? So to have someone for a long time, I wanted to have that recurring income, but I knew that I didn't want to do the common, like. It's a membership model where you're giving lots of content.
[00:34:49] Nathan Barry: Yeah.
[00:34:49] Corina Holden: Um, I just, I just knew I didn't want to do that. Because it's a new,
[00:34:51] Nathan Barry: a new treadmill for you to get on.
[00:34:53] Corina Holden: Yes, exactly. Um, so I, I want the business to be something that I really enjoy working in it. Like I love working 15 to 20 hours a week. It's fun for me right now. But I would like to be able to take, you know, the whole summer off.
[00:35:06] Corina Holden: No problem. Things keep rolling. Right. Right. So that's, that's a goal. And, and who knows what the future holds. I want to be able to build a business that is, it has a lot of that recurring income built in.
[00:35:16] Nathan Barry: Okay. That, that brings something often. We've, it's easy to put out goals. We want to increase our current revenue, increases, you know, the take home pay.
[00:35:25] Nathan Barry: One thing I'm curious about is what non negotiables do you have in this? You kind of hinted at a couple, um, but what, what are those things that you're like, Hey, what constraints are we working within? Yeah.
[00:35:35] Corina Holden: Yeah. Um, for, for me not to like, have to hustle for very long. I, I don't mind hustling for a short period of time, but I want to be like really present for my kids and have time to volunteer in their school and stuff.
[00:35:48] Corina Holden: So probably working 15 to, um, 20 hours a week is, is my cap right now. And I don't think I want to hire an employee. I think I want to keep working with assistants and I think there's a way of doing that. Um, they're, they're great. Um, I love the ones that, that I work with. Those are some non negotiables. I think I also want that profit margin to stay, um, really healthy.
[00:36:14] Corina Holden: Because, uh, your revenue could go super up, but then you have all these customers to serve and take care of, and customer service expenses go up and stuff.
[00:36:22] Nathan Barry: What percentage profit margin feels good to you?
[00:36:27] Corina Holden: Um, 25 to 30%.
[00:36:28] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:36:28] Corina Holden: Yeah. I think we're at about 35 percent so far this year. So it's been really good to, to increase that profit margin, just, um, removing some of the more expensive we've, we've shifted from like our print materials to our digital, so we've removed some of the cost of our products and just overall expenses and we've increased our goal on ROAS.
[00:36:52] Corina Holden: Um, so that's helped our product. What's
[00:36:54] Nathan Barry: your goal now?
[00:36:55] Corina Holden: Um, so a minimum of 1. 3. Um, it used to be more like, hey, even if we break even or 1. 1. You got a
[00:37:02] Nathan Barry: lead for free. But now you're thinking, Yeah. It's gotta be higher. That makes sense. Okay. So, on this, what is this, about 500 customers paying for the software?
[00:37:13] Nathan Barry: About,
[00:37:13] Corina Holden: yep. And then we have lots that join with the lifetime option. I think we have, I was kind of surprised. I think like a thousand have joined with a lifetime.
[00:37:22] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:37:22] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Nathan Barry: So I might need to
[00:37:24] Corina Holden: pull back on that.
[00:37:25] Nathan Barry: Yeah. It's given us a lot
[00:37:27] Corina Holden: of sort of like capital to work with for, um, development, but,
[00:37:32] Nathan Barry: and what, well, that was one 97, one 97.
[00:37:34] Nathan Barry: So. Okay. Yeah.
[00:37:36] Corina Holden: But the reality is that, uh, usually people join with a promotion. So what we actually bring in is, is lower than that. So maybe like, I don't know, 150 or so.
[00:37:47] Nathan Barry: Okay.
[00:37:48] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Nathan Barry: It's interesting to think about, you're right, you do have a bunch of different pricing things here.
[00:37:52] Corina Holden: Mm hmm.
[00:37:53] Nathan Barry: Um. Is there another thing that complicates this more?
[00:37:57] Corina Holden: Yeah. The other thing is that, um, you know, we have these different collections, like this, this calendar is based on the women's essentials collection, but we've got a women's business collection, uh, athleisure. We've got a men's collection, uh, kids, girls, and boys. And so right now you buy the access to the software and then you have to choose which collections to add to that.
[00:38:19] Nathan Barry: Okay. So, and do you pay for each collection? Uh,
[00:38:23] Corina Holden: right. I just increased the price from like 29 each to, they're each 39. And again, usually people are getting a really good discount when they buy, like we'll, we'll do around, you know, 30 percent discounts or whatever.
[00:38:33] Nathan Barry: So when you think about, let's say we, we need to get to, you know, 250, 000 in take home and then, you know, 30, say one, one third profit margins.
[00:38:44] Nathan Barry: So then you're 750, 000 in take home. In gross revenue.
[00:38:49] Corina Holden: Hmm.
[00:38:50] Nathan Barry: Where do you think you have more opportunity in the digital products, information products of the business or in the software? It's probably gonna be a combination, but I'm curious what, what, what feels like it has more low hanging fruit in the business?
[00:39:02] Corina Holden: Hmm. I think right now it is the, I think the chunk of my income is gonna be from, from the, yeah. Info product sort. PDF. Mm-hmm . Um, book version. And I can increase how many people then take that next step and join the next level. Um, I, I think I just need to increase that, but I don't think that's always going to, it's ever going to be like, that's the biggest thing because it's hard to explain to people.
[00:39:29] Corina Holden: That's why I don't sell it with ads. We tried for a little bit, but it was hard to break even
[00:39:33] Nathan Barry: the software, the
[00:39:33] Corina Holden: software. Yeah. Leading with that. It was hard for people to conceptualize. We don't have a mobile app version yet. It works really great on your mobile from the browser, but I think once we get to that, Maybe that'll really help with our sales up front, but I think right now it'll just be, it'll be a portion.
[00:39:50] Corina Holden: I just want to be able to increase. Um, how many people take that additional option?
[00:39:55] Nathan Barry: So it sounds like focusing on the info product side is more interesting or has more, a higher ceiling right now, but then also on the software side from a, with the constraint of the amount of time then recurrent and the goal for increasing recurring revenue, then getting that from 2, 500 a month in recurring revenue to, you know, 5, 000.
[00:40:22] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:40:23] Nathan Barry: So maybe let's focus there first on the software and then dive into some of the other ones. So I've seen complicated pricing hold back software
[00:40:33] Corina Holden: pretty
[00:40:33] Nathan Barry: often. And then it's also another tell for me, the number of people that are taking the lifetime offer. Are you seeing a lot of people renewing and, and like, or is there a lot of churn?
[00:40:43] Corina Holden: I think that the average, um, we keep people for like a year and a half.
[00:40:49] Nathan Barry: Okay. My gut feeling is you want to be pushing the annual much more in your lifetime. It's too cheap.
[00:40:54] Corina Holden: And with annual, like we, we keep improving the, the software. And so. You know, in a year, there's so many more reasons for them to stay.
[00:41:05] Corina Holden: Um, and so we have that chance to like, keep them when they're on. And it's
[00:41:08] Nathan Barry: still a pretty, you know, one or two items of clothing potentially, or less, you know.
[00:41:15] Corina Holden: Yeah. It's not, it's really not that bad. It's easy to spell it. It's been that much in target, you know, just getting a few things. Yeah. Um, what do you think about dropping the monthly and even doing like quarterly or annual or semi annual?
[00:41:30] Nathan Barry: You could, um, my instinct would be to raise the price on the monthly
[00:41:37] Corina Holden: and
[00:41:37] Nathan Barry: keep it in order to make the annual look really, really cheap. And so then you can, you know, so the monthly, I don't, maybe you don't want to go above 10, you know, into double digits. Yeah. Uh, but it's one of those things where. You know, Hey, you could buy it for 15 a month or 12 a month or 77 a year.
[00:42:04] Nathan Barry: And so that we want everybody here, right? Cause if you're saying you're getting six rebills here, that's not, that's not great.
[00:42:14] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:42:14] Nathan Barry: Right. So if we're making, yeah,
[00:42:15] Corina Holden: it doesn't even equal the annual.
[00:42:18] Nathan Barry: It doesn't. Yep. And so that means a bunch of people are probably canceling sooner.
[00:42:22] Corina Holden: The thing with a lifetime, it was like, that's, that's almost three years of the annual.
[00:42:26] Corina Holden: Right.
[00:42:27] Nathan Barry: Right. So that's
[00:42:27] Corina Holden: why I was like. It still made sense for me to offer that.
[00:42:30] Nathan Barry: It probably does. It just doesn't help your recurring revenue. Yeah. Um, which, you know, it depends on what you're optimizing for. You know, if this was a business that you wanted to sell at some point, then we wouldn't be doing the lifetime deals because they'll look at that as a liability.
[00:42:46] Corina Holden: But I think if we dropped the, having the lifetime offer, um, and just, yeah, adjusted the pricing so that the annual really doesn't seem like that big of a deal. And yeah, we can position it as like, Hey, like next month, don't go shopping for clothes. We're going to show you how to optimize what you have and spend that amount instead on this so that moving forward, you're going to avoid wasting
[00:43:06] Nathan Barry: money on clothes that
[00:43:07] Corina Holden: you don't use.
[00:43:08] Nathan Barry: The other thing that I would do is I would have incentives to go from the, from the monthly to the annual. So upgrade, then this should be an automated thing, right? Cause you're good at upsells or order bumps. And so you're saying, Hey, upgrade to annual and get, and then you have some other, you You know, if you upgrade this week, then I will give you this additional bonus.
[00:43:28] Corina Holden: Okay.
[00:43:29] Nathan Barry: Um.
[00:43:29] Corina Holden: Yeah. Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. Of like switching people. over.
[00:43:34] Nathan Barry: What is the, like, I really want this pricing to be simpler. And so what is the, the one time offer doing for you?
[00:43:42] Corina Holden: Well, it gives them 30 days of premium. So they feel that they, they experienced the whole thing, but it just helps with those people that are really reticent about a recurring, um, subscription and paying that.
[00:43:53] Corina Holden: Um, so they see the value, um, and they're like, wowed by what it can do. Um, and then they switch over, right? And
[00:44:00] Nathan Barry: are a lot of people doing
[00:44:01] Corina Holden: We maybe have like 3, 000 people that are on basic, um, that haven't switched over to premium. Uh, so if we have like 1, 500 on premium, yeah, I think a good, I mean,
[00:44:16] Nathan Barry: that'd be interesting.
[00:44:17] Nathan Barry: I would really look into, into that of how to, like, what are the actual numbers of who's switching? Because this might be, it might be really good, and it might be costing you a decent amount. So what is that actual funnel? Who's switching? Right. Is it worth it just for the 39? Um,
[00:44:36] Corina Holden: yeah, that's a good point.
[00:44:38] Nathan Barry: So looking at this with the two goals of increasing recurrent revenue, uh, And then increasing the take home, you know, net income on increasing recurring. I think that if you do each of these steps of increasing the monthly price and then moving people from monthly to annual and setting a funnel up for that, and then really looking at the basic to premium conversion, then if you can simplify the pricing.
[00:45:04] Nathan Barry: It'll make it a lot more a lot easier to sell.
[00:45:08] Corina Holden: Yeah,
[00:45:09] Nathan Barry: and then you'll just you'll even just have less complexity Behind the scenes now if we then look at all right, if we increase the take home, that's the main goal It doesn't feel like software is the main way Yeah. But I'm just going to do that? Right?
[00:45:23] Nathan Barry: Especially because well, let me think about that for a second. Is there a way that you could get five times as many people on your list to buy the software? Or do you think everything we're going to do is like maybe a 50 percent increase in software purchases?
[00:45:39] Corina Holden: Yeah. Um, I'd say more like 50, 50 percent increase.
[00:45:44] Corina Holden: Um, I don't think it's going to be. A hugely drastic amount, I think, I think down the road as we're able to, like, turn it into a actual mobile app, so people recognize that more like, oh, yeah, an app, um, that will, that will help a lot, but yeah, I can see, like, the software, maybe I can see that as, you know, Sort of a baseline stability.
[00:46:06] Corina Holden: Okay. It, it pays the, like a lot of the bills. Yeah. It offers a higher, it's like the next level for our customers. Right.
[00:46:13] Nathan Barry: It's a much higher perceived value. Right. It differentiates you from any competition that is just saying, oh yeah, there's, there's
[00:46:19] Corina Holden: nothing out there.
[00:46:20] Nathan Barry: Yeah.
[00:46:21] Corina Holden: Like it, so I probably need to do a better job about.
[00:46:25] Corina Holden: Promoting it and just showing the value of right. Like compared to this app or that app, this is how we do it different. This is why you need this.
[00:46:34] Nathan Barry: And most people may not even know about those other apps. Yeah, that's true. I think it's great for stability. Let's continue to refine it, but let's not double down on it as the main focus.
[00:46:44] Nathan Barry: Um, one thing I'm wondering is have you sold this software? Anywhere besides your core audience, like any partnerships or things like that, where like you mentioned, you, you've tried direct ads to it and that didn't work, but what other things?
[00:47:00] Corina Holden: No, I haven't. Um, I, I have thought about like tapping into the huge world of stylists.
[00:47:07] Corina Holden: There's so many, you know, like on Instagram, I just find a lot that are, they do one on one services. But could they harness this software,
[00:47:15] Nathan Barry: right?
[00:47:15] Corina Holden: They could be affiliates. So it is something I could tap into right now. I'm advertising this as. It's like a stylist without the fee, right? But, um, I can switch that around and just so that it's not a competition with stylists, personal stylists.
[00:47:30] Nathan Barry: Right. That could be interesting.
[00:47:34] Corina Holden: That's another angle, like consider other sort of like markets or angles of selling.
[00:47:41] Nathan Barry: And so it might be, you don't want to have, they wouldn't position it as a replacement for themselves, but it might be a value add that then you can say, Hey, you can upsell this. To your audience, right?
[00:47:53] Nathan Barry: As a stylist, they could say it's now a way that they can differentiate themselves from other stylists, potentially. And
[00:48:02] Corina Holden: I would just say, it's like part of their service.
[00:48:05] Nathan Barry: If they're providing additional
[00:48:07] Corina Holden: visuals and this like platform, you can log in and see what we talked
[00:48:11] Nathan Barry: about. And so then maybe that's the thing where a stylist would be paying a hundred dollars a month for 10 licenses or 25 licenses, right?
[00:48:20] Nathan Barry: You know, there might be a version there. I don't know if that would resonate in any way, but it's, it might be worth exploring.
[00:48:26] Corina Holden: Okay. So do it from, from that angle where the, the stylist is, is paying for licenses versus them being an affiliate. Yeah. Cause then
[00:48:35] Nathan Barry: you could try both.
[00:48:36] Corina Holden: Okay.
[00:48:37] Nathan Barry: But the affiliate feels competitive.
[00:48:39] Nathan Barry: Whereas the, uh, it's
[00:48:41] Corina Holden: making their clients buy one more thing.
[00:48:43] Nathan Barry: Whereas the other one feels like a value add of like, how do you make the stylist feel even more premium? I hadn't thought of
[00:48:50] Corina Holden: that angle. Yeah. Okay.
[00:48:51] Nathan Barry: Yeah. So I think that'd be worth exploring. So then, I mean, going back to our constraints, that's why it's really helpful to write these out because, you know, Oh, we could do this channel.
[00:48:59] Nathan Barry: We could do this other thing. But it's like, well, we're pretty quickly going to come up against this 15 to 20 hours a week constraint.
[00:49:05] Corina Holden: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that it's really like in a return enough for
[00:49:09] Nathan Barry: that.
[00:49:10] Corina Holden: It's worth the effort.
[00:49:11] Nathan Barry: Is there anything in the business that you feel like, okay, that has a ton of potential if I could just double down on that or unlock this one aspect?
[00:49:19] Corina Holden: Um. I actually think that, that Pinterest has more potential. Like it's one of those things that we really focused on for the first three, four years. And then we let that coast, like we just use Tailwind to keep things scheduled, but not creating new content. And, at least lately, with Google traffic decreasing, I've realized, well, Pinterest is not hit that way.
[00:49:39] Corina Holden: Um, and so, I think that there is, there is a lot of potential there. Because it's, it's organic. So it's, it's much cheaper way to acquire new leads.
[00:49:49] Nathan Barry: Yeah. So let's put Pinterest here and then that way we can dive into it more. Okay. So let's just map it out right now. What, what would those key metrics be?
[00:50:00] Corina Holden: Um, it's basically, um, click through rates on, uh, pins and we're just, yeah.
[00:50:07] Corina Holden: So we're looking at, um, winning, uh, uh, let's see, topics, but also designs. So what makes people click? Um, and what topics are people searching for, which is a little bit with, um, keyword strategy. So we might need to figure that out with Pinterest. There's, there's not as many tools for. figuring out like what, what people are searching for on Pinterest.
[00:50:41] Corina Holden: So we need to, we might need to figure that out more.
[00:50:44] Nathan Barry: Is the market still plenty big enough on Pinterest?
[00:50:46] Corina Holden: Oh yeah. I mean, fashion's a huge topic. Lots of traffic on, on fashion and our ideal markets there. Okay.
[00:50:54] Nathan Barry: So can you do paid advertising on Pinterest?
[00:50:57] Corina Holden: You can, I haven't spent time on that because I, what I hear it's like a long game.
[00:51:02] Corina Holden: It's not, it's not like the upfront profit usually that you do. Yeah. It's like pins take a while to take off. And they can, but I just figured, I think since meta ads are working, I don't think I should split my attention.
[00:51:14] Nathan Barry: Yep. Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:51:15] Corina Holden: I think the other, um, I haven't been able to figure out how to, how to do this without requiring a lot more of my time is right now we're working with the, you know, a backlog of, of blog posts that we already have on our blog.
[00:51:27] Corina Holden: Cause we take people to our blog or to our freebie opt in pages, but, um, creating new content. What, you know, new URLs, Pinterest likes that and they'll push that out to more people, but creating blog posts is, that's a hard one. Like, cause I want them to be really high quality. I don't want them like, well, we use a lot of AI in, you know, chat GPT.
[00:51:45] Corina Holden: So I, but I don't want. To, um, push out blog posts that are mostly AI, I don't want to go that route. I want it to be like really high quality. And so I don't have anyone trained to, to do that. So it would take time, but I feel like I need to figure that out. So maybe like once I get meta ads, again, like sustained and sort of just on a system that they're working, they're not taking as much of my time.
[00:52:08] Corina Holden: I could dive into that and, and bring in some VAs to get a system of new blog content, because I think if we were publishing even just a couple of new blog posts a month, um, and then new pin designs, I think that would, it would skyrocket. Okay. I think it would, because like initially we did see that success with Pinterest and now that we're creating new designs again for existing content, but we're seeing the increase in traffic.
[00:52:34] Nathan Barry: Is there a flywheel to Pinterest that we could. map out? Do you think it exists?
[00:52:41] Corina Holden: Um, well, certainly we can get topics from, from our existing list, you know, pain points that we can write on. Right. That would be like, I'll just
[00:52:53] Nathan Barry: list these out. What
[00:52:54] Corina Holden: do we write about? Um, and then It's a matter of, uh, publishing that content, creating pins, and then you check the metrics to see which of those pins are sticking.
[00:53:06] Corina Holden: Cause we usually create, you know, like five to 10 designs for each one for each piece of content. So metrics, and then that would feed into again, which topics do well, which is one thing, write more on those topics, which designs do well, make more of those designs for future blog posts and for existing blog posts.
[00:53:26] Nathan Barry: It's always hard to do a flywheel on the fly. Right. Yeah. Um, okay. So we are, I think what it is, it's like pain points and then we're saying create pins
[00:53:42] Corina Holden: and our pins do feedback to creating a bigger source because we get, well, yeah, because we get trapped. Okay.
[00:53:49] Nathan Barry: I was going to go inside a different way, but I think that might be interesting.
[00:53:53] Nathan Barry: So sourcing pain points. Creating pins. And then, you know, we're testing, you know, then it's the metrics. Okay. So then. More content. You're right. That does. We'd be back around. Oh, so it'd be, uh, subscribers. Okay. So one, clearly a flywheel that spins so well based on the shape. But this gets at something that I do with flywheels where I always just start sketching immediately.
[00:54:24] Nathan Barry: Okay. When I'm like, I guess usually I'll write down something like talk through it and kind of write down a list and have some, some basics from there. But what I want to do is just write something down because if I try to hold the whole thing in my head, it never works. And so what I was thinking about is that we're sourcing ideas from pit for pens from our audience.
[00:54:48] Nathan Barry: And then that's going into creating the pins, and then, you know, our metrics and testing will come back into creating pins. But you're right that this drives subscribers.
[00:54:58] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:54:58] Nathan Barry: But in this, you could map this out, and it'd give you a visual, and you could have steps in each, you know, so this is each step as you go through it, and there can be tasks under each.
[00:55:11] Nathan Barry: Each of those steps then you can go to your gives your team member and say hey, here's what we're measuring success based on We're measuring it based on Maybe total number of pins or views Not created not pins created, but the pins that you're getting on the platform. Yeah total number of subscribers And then revenue attributed to Pinterest, right?
[00:55:37] Nathan Barry: If you're using UTM parameters or something to pass through all the way to your revenue,
[00:55:40] Corina Holden: which we're just starting to incorporate.
[00:55:42] Nathan Barry: Nice.
[00:55:42] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:55:43] Nathan Barry: Yep. It's a big, big move when you get there. And
[00:55:46] Corina Holden: yeah, which I hear there's the way to like use hidden fields and kit to pull in those UTM parameters. Yep. I don't know.
[00:55:52] Corina Holden: We just, I just heard about that. I'm like, might do that.
[00:55:54] Nathan Barry: All of that is slowly releasing and there's more and more that you can do now. So with that. And you could draw, like, create a very nice visual of what you're doing, the steps, and then create a spreadsheet that you want your team member who's working on Pinterest to fill in every week.
[00:56:15] Nathan Barry: And then they're saying it, like, they're staying on topic. And that way you're not having to worry about, are they getting distracted? Are they going and doing something different? And you can just keep refining that system, which will keep your time involved very low. And from the, have you ever read the book, the E Myth Revisited?
[00:56:32] Nathan Barry: Oh
[00:56:32] Corina Holden: yeah. That's funny enough that I read that when I was still an employee. I worked as a content production manager at Logos Bible Software. And I read it there because they, they would pay their employees to read books. And I loved it. And I never knew I'd be an entrepreneur at that point. Absolutely.
[00:56:51] Corina Holden: Yeah. So it's a really,
[00:56:52] Nathan Barry: really great book and it's really all about getting you to work on your business rather than in it.
[00:56:56] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[00:56:57] Nathan Barry: And so what I love about, you know, you saying, Hey, there's something here, but I'm going to, I'm going to stay out of it and I'm going to stay at the systems level and we're going to map out this flywheel.
[00:57:06] Corina Holden: Cause I've been in it at the beginning and I think it is important. Like I've seen that if I really master something, I see what clicks. Yeah.
[00:57:14] Nathan Barry: And
[00:57:15] Corina Holden: you're right. Yeah. I need to like stay out of it instead of sort of being in, sort of out.
[00:57:20] Nathan Barry: So in all of this, if we zoom out from Pinterest and then we're going to, you know, we're thinking about where are you going in the business?
[00:57:28] Nathan Barry: We know that to scale up total revenue and take home, you know, meta ads is probably the biggest channel to do that. Are there any problems or things that you're running into that That would be helpful for us to resolve. Yeah, funnily enough,
[00:57:43] Corina Holden: when we started running ads is when I started to hear back from, you know, subscribers saying like, Why do you keep mentioning moms?
[00:57:51] Corina Holden: Like, this, I'm not a mom, don't plan to be, you know, I'm a dog mom. But this works for me, like, is, is this supposed to work for me? You know? And so there's just this confusion, but it only started with minute ads. And so I think it's cause like ads like Matt, it's just reaching people that buy and the general woman is like, this is awesome, but I, I'm just wondering if I should shift my overall messaging or am I going to be dropping off, you know, I'm not going to be talking specifically anymore to those moms that finally feel heard because there are so many fashion resources out there or like capital wardrobe plans that are just not mom friendly.
[00:58:27] Corina Holden: They're like white button down. Everyone needs that. Like, like most moms don't need that unless they work in an office and we have a business plan for that, but like,
[00:58:35] Nathan Barry: right. So the question is really, if we're trying to triple revenue and, you know, double or triple revenue and profit. Do we narrow down the niche because there's definitely enough moms consuming content on the internet who are interested in this.
[00:58:54] Nathan Barry: Like we don't have a total addressable market problem, but you know, there's one angle, right? You, you narrow down and you say, this is exactly who we're for and we're just going to find way more of them. Or you say, Oh, we go a little broader and you know, then by increasing the market size, we can increase the number of sales.
[00:59:15] Nathan Barry: I think that's a tough problem that a lot of people face.
[00:59:18] Corina Holden: Yeah. And I don't know if I'm just hearing feedback from, you know, a small majority that are like,
[00:59:23] Nathan Barry: Right.
[00:59:23] Corina Holden: I'm not a mom. Maybe I should survey my audience and see at this point how many of them are moms and how many aren't. I
[00:59:28] Nathan Barry: mean, you should, you can run polls in Kit.
[00:59:31] Corina Holden: Yeah. Put
[00:59:31] Nathan Barry: that in an email that goes out and say, Yeah, help us
[00:59:34] Corina Holden: tag you to like serve you best and,
[00:59:36] Nathan Barry: Yep. One thing that you could do, right, is to split the entire audience. Right. And let people self segment. That's great for customizing emails because you could put variables in or things like that. Use snippets.
[00:59:50] Nathan Barry: It's harder with products, right? Because. Then if you're embedding things in a sales video or wherever else, it's much harder. Do you feel like in order to reach your revenue goals, you have to go broad? Or would you want to stay focused on moms or could you do it staying focused on moms?
[01:00:12] Corina Holden: Um, I think I could do it.
[01:00:14] Corina Holden: Yeah. One angle I'm thinking of taking is like, since I'm a mom myself, And I, I like to, at this point, show up, like, personally on the newsletters, like, I share a little bit of myself, I often put a picture of myself, and people really like that, and so I think I will be speaking still to the moms in my audience, but I wonder if instead of labeling things like for moms, um, you know, even on our pins kind of move away from that, but in the message capture some of those, like some of my ads could be specifically for moms.
[01:00:45] Corina Holden: Um, and it'll, because I can speak directly to their pain points, but then once they're in like the actual blog, the, the products. You know, my header, everything, it's not to moms, but it's just to women in general, the everyday woman, you
[01:01:00] Nathan Barry: know? So what's your feeling on splitting the audience or like segmenting it?
[01:01:03] Nathan Barry: And it
[01:01:04] Corina Holden: feels complicated.
[01:01:05] Nathan Barry: It does feel complicated. And that coming back to the constraints,
[01:01:08] Corina Holden: right? Like
[01:01:09] Nathan Barry: that, that simplicity.
[01:01:10] Corina Holden: Yeah. It feels like it adds some complexity. So,
[01:01:12] Nathan Barry: so if we scale meta ads, if those are two options of, we really have three, I guess I should write these out. Option one is to segment.
[01:01:25] Nathan Barry: Uh, option two is to focus, so that'd be focusing on moms, and option three, I'll just say go broad.
[01:01:36] Corina Holden: Yeah, I, I am very much leaning towards this. I just wanted to hear if you thought like, oh, bad idea. Always stay niched down. But because I feel like my messaging, just because I, It's not kareenaholden. com, but, but I am very much in it.
[01:01:51] Corina Holden: And I, I don't mind that at this stage, you know, I am building the business that I could step away and it's still just as valuable. But, um, since my face is often on the ads and things like that, I think I, I do attract the, uh, ideal person, whether they're a mom or not. And if they're not a mom, they still absolutely love the products.
[01:02:10] Corina Holden: And so I think I should, I shouldn't alienate those people or make them feel like, I'm not sure if I'm in the right place.
[01:02:15] Nathan Barry: Yeah. I think that makes sense. So first when making a decision, I always define the options because again, like trying to pull a flywheel in my head, I can't hold a decision,
[01:02:25] Corina Holden: all
[01:02:25] Nathan Barry: of them.
[01:02:25] Nathan Barry: And so I will write it out and then dive into pros and cons of that. As you're thinking about the lens through which to make the decision, uh, if it sounds like if meta ads and what's working to drive revenue from that channel was the lens, then go broad is the answer, right?
[01:02:40] Corina Holden: Yeah, it is. And it, and it feels like the smart answer is just that there's so much advice about niching down that I was like, like, I don't tend to hear people say the experts say, but I feel like I'm at that juncture in the business where.
[01:02:58] Corina Holden: It just makes sense to broaden.
[01:02:59] Nathan Barry: And that, that, that does help. The other thing in any decision to make is, is it reversible? Or how reversible is this decision? And it sounds like it's a fairly reversible decision.
[01:03:11] Corina Holden: Yeah, it is.
[01:03:12] Nathan Barry: Let's say that you make this decision in any direction, or say you decide to go broad.
[01:03:18] Nathan Barry: How would you know if that was the right decision? Say six months or a year down the road.
[01:03:21] Corina Holden: Oh. I think, you know, we continue to see, um, good engagement with our emails. Mm-hmm . Conversion rates stay the same.
[01:03:29] Nathan Barry: So somehow you, you don't alienate.
[01:03:31] Corina Holden: Yeah. And I, again, and I don't, I don't get confused customers.
[01:03:35] Nathan Barry: Mm-hmm . Okay. Or
[01:03:36] Corina Holden: unsure customers, you know,
[01:03:38] Nathan Barry: is that through a survey? Is that. Like how we,
[01:03:41] Corina Holden: we just hear from them from customer service, so I could have my customer service gal.
[01:03:46] Nathan Barry: Look for that tabs
[01:03:47] Corina Holden: on that. Yeah.
[01:03:48] Nathan Barry: I would want to try to find something, some sort of more official survey. So it's not just the loudest people.
[01:03:53] Corina Holden: Okay. Yeah.
[01:03:55] Nathan Barry: Yeah. I would want to survey the audience now and I want to survey it. Yeah. I'm going to do that in a year.
[01:04:00] Corina Holden: Yeah. In a year. How much do you feel like from fighters speaks to your situation?
[01:04:05] Nathan Barry: And so you're collecting some information about them and you know, then. How much you're speaking to them and then see what trends you find in that.
[01:04:15] Corina Holden: That's a good idea.
[01:04:16] Nathan Barry: Yes,
[01:04:18] Corina Holden: so Basically a poll or a survey now Yeah, and then in one year and it's really something that I I should do every year
[01:04:29] Nathan Barry: I think so
[01:04:30] Corina Holden: and just see how the audience is shifting and then
[01:04:32] Nathan Barry: you could it's not hard
[01:04:33] Corina Holden: to do
[01:04:33] Nathan Barry: You know, I think that'd be really helpful and you can find ways that you know, maybe you're sourcing pain points from
[01:04:39] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[01:04:39] Nathan Barry: That survey.
[01:04:40] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[01:04:40] Nathan Barry: There's a bunch of things there. I think there's a lot of good things here. And so it's fun to see it, it like scale and where you can go from here. Well, here, let's sit down and kind of recap it. So it's fun to dive into your business. You've built a really impressive business and I love that you started out with like small aspirations and it's grown to something really substantial.
[01:05:02] Nathan Barry: Now, when I'm thinking about. Where to go from here. I think it's pretty clear like that meta ads are your strength. That's what you really want to focus on. We explored some other great options, but I'm curious what, what stands out to you and like your next moves.
[01:05:20] Corina Holden: Yeah, no, I really appreciate like you clarifying, like That simplifying the pricing structure.
[01:05:26] Corina Holden: I was just kind of curious what you thought about that. And then I hadn't thought about the liability aspect of the lifetime. Um, so I have to think a little bit more on that, how to do that. And, and I think at this point, I don't need the lifetime option as much to, to fund the development cause it's at a really good place.
[01:05:44] Corina Holden: So that's a big one. I think help with the audience was the, it's just a difficult question. It's like there's pros and cons to each one. So. Um, using a survey and just seeing where they are now, where they are in a year and going from there, um, is good. And yeah, I think also in the last couple of months, um, it's, it's become clear that I just, I just need to get more leads cause I'm able to convert, you know, subscribers to purchase and realize the value of my products within, it might take a couple of years, you know, or even longer.
[01:06:15] Corina Holden: Some people it's crazy looking back at their, um, subscription date, but, uh, they do eventually Realize or, or like, yeah, they might come to a pain point and they go back and Google us and like, okay, it's time for me to buy this thing and try this just focusing in on that one thing, um, well, really, it has really simplified like, oh, yeah, it's, it's clear.
[01:06:37] Corina Holden: I need to do. I need to spend my time on meta ads that the return on that is like, it could be 500 to my hour, you know, and then eventually if I can systematize that enough to at least part of it, I can hand off to a VA and I might still be like present in it, um, to make sure, you know, as the business owner that understands everything, the whole funnel and everything.
[01:07:02] Corina Holden: To make sure that we are doing like optimizing them, but, you know, loading in new ads and writing the results and things like that. I could hand that off, right? Um, so we can create more of a system there. And then I need to go deeper with interest. Yeah, it's easy to coast on that because we do get like traffic without trying too hard, but it's like, well, why don't we go farther with that?
[01:07:22] Corina Holden: Um, and try to create a flywheel that then. My VA can have a, um, system and ownership to, to do that and take it.
[01:07:31] Nathan Barry: And I think on that, if you co create that flywheel with your VA, so they feel more ownership in it, that's
[01:07:38] Corina Holden: a really good idea from the
[01:07:39] Nathan Barry: early stages. And then ask the question, like, okay, what, what metrics should we track on this on a weekly basis?
[01:07:46] Nathan Barry: And then come up with those with them. You might guide that conversation a little bit, but I think,
[01:07:53] Corina Holden: Hmm.
[01:07:54] Nathan Barry: What it's really going to do is it's going to help them not get distracted and jump around to other things or stop Like you might have a month or two where things on Pinterest aren't really working And so they might stop doing it Whereas the flywheel is going to keep them focused on it for a long time and it'll you know Let's say that this individual ends up leaving your business Then it'll give you this really dialed in thing that you could hire someone else in
[01:08:18] Corina Holden: Yeah, I feel like we're, we're pretty good with, um, like I said, like I just love efficiency and so we have pretty good SOPs and a system for that.
[01:08:26] Corina Holden: So when I do hand something off, you know, it takes like hours and hours, but then it's, it's there and I have them updated when something changes. So yeah, you're right. I think we could hand it off and she could hand it off.
[01:08:39] Nathan Barry: That sounds good. And then looking over it, the other thing is thinking about the balance between software and.
[01:08:46] Nathan Barry: the, uh, training content, you know, the other digital products. I think most people would expect that I would be in the camp of like double down on software, go all in on that.
[01:08:56] Corina Holden: And I
[01:08:56] Nathan Barry: do, I absolutely love software and I love recurring revenue at the same time with the constraints that you have in the goals that you have.
[01:09:04] Nathan Barry: I don't feel like software is going to get you there the fastest. So I would want to see you really streamline that, clarify the offers, clarify the pricing and keep promoting it. I think it positions you in some really interesting ways. And you should keep, and by that I mean it gives you credibility that others in your niche might not have because you've, you know, you've built the platform for this.
[01:09:28] Corina Holden: Yeah. And
[01:09:28] Nathan Barry: that's, that's a high barrier to entry.
[01:09:31] Corina Holden: Yes, exactly. It's it, it is hard for someone to repeat
[01:09:35] Nathan Barry: how we felt.
[01:09:36] Corina Holden: I mean, like, yeah, I've been very much in the design of it as, as the user, you know, use it every day. And so I'm, I'm refining it and it's, it's pretty awesome what it can do. So I've, I've realized like it took a while to get to that point where we found that.
[01:09:49] Corina Holden: Yeah. So
[01:09:57] Nathan Barry: there's a lot there. And then I'm really curious where it would go. So explore some of these other options of even just talking to stylists and saying, Hey, would this be interesting as a value add service? You know, and I would just give out probably 20,
[01:10:13] Corina Holden: 25
[01:10:14] Nathan Barry: free licenses of it and say, Hey, in trade for you, giving me feedback, um, and see what, what comes from there.
[01:10:21] Nathan Barry: Cause there might be a whole business there or there might not at all. And so that's something that's worth exploring.
[01:10:27] Corina Holden: Yeah.
[01:10:28] Nathan Barry: Well, thanks so much for coming on. If people want to check out your content, uh, both to learn from what you're doing and then also to
[01:10:35] Corina Holden: dress
[01:10:35] Nathan Barry: better and. Stress out less about what they're wearing.
[01:10:39] Nathan Barry: Where should they go to follow you?
[01:10:40] Corina Holden: Yeah. So we're, um, at front fighters, Instagram, Facebook. Um, you'll find us there and you can go to front fighters. com. And find us there.
[01:10:49] Nathan Barry: Sounds good. Thanks for coming on.
[01:10:51] Corina Holden: Thanks so much for having me.
[01:10:52] Nathan Barry: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Berry Show.
[01:10:57] Nathan Barry: Then hit subscribe, and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were. And also, just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening.