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TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to Spotify immediately after airing.
Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has interviewed Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. Diet TBPN delivers the best moments from each episode in under 30 minutes.
You're watching TBPN.
Speaker 2:Today is Tuesday, 09/29/2026. We are live from OpenAI DevDay twenty twenty six. That's right. We're very excited.
Speaker 1:Beautiful day.
Speaker 2:You're a
Speaker 1:beautiful day
Speaker 2:in San Francisco. We don't get up here nearly enough, but what a fantastic day to be here. Bunch of interesting launches. Bunch bunch of guests from OpenAI joining us. We have Sam Altman joining us in just about ten minutes.
Speaker 1:Bunch of friends here. Yeah. Amazing opportunity. If you're here, walk walk in the background.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:You can get a screenshot of it. Oh, yeah. We'll get a little picture together. I see Jeff from Stripe over here hanging out.
Speaker 2:Hey, Jeff.
Speaker 1:We're live, Jeff. We're talking about you. Great to see you. Come come come in the background. This is mister Agenic Payments over here.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:Captain Agenic Payments. We're live. Jeff, you're live. We're live. We just started.
Speaker 1:Anyways, we'll get back to the show. Yeah. Here we go. Anyways, having a lot of fun here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Great group. Before we get into a bunch of great guests, we should talk about the news. Anything going on?
Speaker 2:Well, there's ramp. Time is money. Say both. He's used corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Always a good chance to tell people about ramp.
Speaker 2:The headline on DevDay, just to kinda set the table, 2,500 attendees. It's been four years in a row now. 20 launches today. I think the number might be higher depending on how you slice them up. And the big numbers that they put on stage, ChatGPT is now used by more than 1,200,000,000 people every week.
Speaker 2:Over 35,000,000 people build with ChatGPT working codex every week. And the big launch was, personal AI agents, dots, but also ChatGPT Spaces, GPT 6.1 Soul, and a bunch of other stuff around sites, codex, and work that we will get into. But let's take people through some of the other stories that we should cover. I'm sure we'll be covering this more tomorrow as well.
Speaker 1:Start with
Speaker 3:the internal.
Speaker 1:Aura loss, John? You wanna
Speaker 2:straight there?
Speaker 1:Let's get straight into it. There's some unfortunate news. The the the Aura IPO seems to be taking a pause or or a a bit of a slowdown.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The headline is smart ring maker Aura delays IPO due to market uncertainty. Joe isn't really buying it. He says the S and P 500 is up 12% this year, and companies are delaying their IPOs due to market conditions. I saw some commentary on this saying that, their IPO is oversubscribed by 4.4 x.
Speaker 2:That sounds great. The historical average is, I think, like, 2.5 x, something like that. So why'd they pull it? That's confusing. I talked to some other folks who said, no.
Speaker 2:More in more recent eras, you've seen IPOs go out at 10 x oversubscribed, 15 x oversubscribed.
Speaker 1:I think FIGMO is something like 30 or 40.
Speaker 2:It was a crazy, crazy multiple. Yeah. And also, I believe this IPO was gonna be pure secondary. And so
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's not like they need the cash.
Speaker 2:And yeah. And so it was more of like a marketing and excitement, a key moment Yeah. For the company. It wasn't a necessary financing round right now. And so Yeah.
Speaker 2:They can pull back and keep building.
Speaker 1:So on on on one hand, amazing product. Yeah. Have have managed to have relatively little competition in the ring category despite much broader competition in wearables.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It seems like it's a great business. I think investors generally are gonna be a little apprehensive to own a name that is in in any other decade was at scale, but now feels like subscale relative to some of the other action Yeah. In the market. Yeah. And so I'm sure they'll be back.
Speaker 1:But yeah, unfortunate news.
Speaker 2:Are there any rumors of of direct competition from the bigger companies like Apple or Mac?
Speaker 1:I don't know. This always felt like something that Apple should have bought.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Or or Feels.
Speaker 2:Competed with. I mean,
Speaker 4:a lot
Speaker 1:of Yeah.
Speaker 2:They they didn't buy Pebble. They just launched the Apple Watch, but they did very well in that category. Yeah. But maybe it's just No.
Speaker 1:But in in many ways, like, feels like it would be so much make a lot more sense than, let's say, like a Beats by Dre to just, fit in to the whole algorithm
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right away. Yeah. They could, you know, it it it almost doesn't need to be even reskinned. Right? It it it fit it feels like it fits into the ecosystem already.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Also, they are facing a bunch of competition from ring makers and device makers that are more AI forward, like they have a microphone on them, but that feels like an easy
Speaker 1:Very unclear. People actually really need or want that yet.
Speaker 2:Oh, true. True. You think that's why they're moving slower on it? Is that they Well, I don't
Speaker 1:think I think a lot of people I think if they came out and said we're adding microphone to your ring, a lot of people would be like, you're you're getting you're collecting enough of my data. Sure. Don't need a microphone.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're healthy. My heart rate blood
Speaker 1:But, yeah, some other commentary here over on x says the Nasdaq hit an all time high seven days ago. So basically saying like, look, it's it's probably less market uncertainty and more of a disconnect between what investors would pay and where they wanna price.
Speaker 2:They were looking to raise as much as 2,200,000,000 in the IPO, which had drawn about four times as many orders as there were shares available or is the highest profile firm to date to delay its offering, and they list out a couple others. The stock market, meanwhile, has broadly held up over the past few weeks despite the ten year treasury yields reaching their highest levels to since 2007. Now it's up more today. There's a quote here from Joe Saluzzi. I wouldn't say we're in a market that's scary, so this is a bit surprising.
Speaker 2:This isn't a market I would be scared of if I was IPO.
Speaker 1:Can I can handle the I can handle the market uncertainty?
Speaker 2:This guy's just Like, I don't know what they got, what they're fearing.
Speaker 1:No. But it but it but again, like, there there's always there's always a a price that's Yeah. Clear. Yep. And clearly, they'd rather
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, the
Speaker 1:bankers and
Speaker 2:the and the
Speaker 1:team would rather sit it out and
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Get it done at their price
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When they're ready.
Speaker 2:So for Runner and Lifeline, we're gonna offer 36,500,000 shares. Ora was planning to sell 13,500,000 shares. And so, those venture funds will have to wait to recycle the capital, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Another news, Long Lake completed their acquisition of Amex Global Business Travel.
Speaker 2:How much do they pay?
Speaker 1:6,300,000,000.
Speaker 2:And they have like thousands of employees now or something like that?
Speaker 1:Up to 30,000 Never employees across the never have have done a like a rift at any Oh, of your You're actually growing headcount. So again, more data that shows if you're actually applying AI well Yeah. You can actually grow Sure. Grow your payroll.
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. The other the other big story, at least in the AI world, is that AMD sets $8,000,000,000 deal for AI research company. Of course, AMD bought World Labs, the the com the Neo Lab, I suppose, is the term from, Fei Fei Li. AMD, agreed to acquire artificial intelligence research firm, World Labs, an all stock deal valued at about 8,200,000,000, an acquisition that reflects chipmaker's ambitions to control more of the AI stack.
Speaker 2:AMD, a semiconductor company, recently touched a trillion dollar valuation, said the deal would bring leading AI research and development talent and help the company develop better AI hardware, software, and systems, especially for the growing field of physical AI and robotics.
Speaker 1:I Big moment. Yeah. Big moment for Fei Fei and the
Speaker 2:whole team. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, I think I think it's very I mean, I'm super excited to see what they do at at AMD. I wonder how much they'll continue to focus on exactly what they've been been doing to date. I mean, once this is Massive moment massive moment for Andreessen Horowitz. Another another, you know, multi billion
Speaker 2:dollar
Speaker 1:acquisition.
Speaker 2:Think I have Randall
Speaker 1:heard about the apology form. Yeah. Yeah. He filled out he filled out the apology form. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Credit to him. But yeah, big big moment. And yeah, it was always Faith Hay and the team are incredibly impressive. Yeah. It always felt it was still no matter how much I got explained, this sort of like near term strategy, I never understood exactly how it would translate into billions of dollars of revenue today.
Speaker 2:I I mean, the the yeah. People would say robotic training data, you simulate a world and
Speaker 1:then
Speaker 2:the robot can interact with it. That's synthetic data for training humanoids or or any robotic system. The more near term one was you could sort of see the progression of world models to a point where you could create a video game on the fly and have all of the generation and all of the world creation happen on the fly with just a new technology. And you would see, you know, companies potentially license that technology like people pay Unreal Engine to, you know, host or develop their games on top of. There was something that was happening there with consistency.
Speaker 2:Google has a product as well. But, yeah, they were there still hasn't been that like ChatGPT moment for adoption of world models, really. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you can imagine this is like a like a future facing bet. Yeah. As in, hey, let's make it emit a much bigger play into into robotics.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Jensen's been doing some more stuff with world models.
Speaker 1:Here he is.
Speaker 2:Open source. We have Sam Altman joining for the third time. Welcome the
Speaker 1:Man of the hour.
Speaker 2:Good to
Speaker 1:see you.
Speaker 2:Congratulations. We're gonna have you throw that headset on. Welcome to the show. Thanks, How DevDay twenty twenty six ago? People seem very happy.
Speaker 2:I think they are. What were you doing twenty years ago?
Speaker 1:God knows if you No. It was
Speaker 5:like working on a little startup.
Speaker 2:Didn't Loop launch twenty years ago, basically today?
Speaker 5:That's incredible, if that's accurate.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think September Pretty close. Of 2006 was the launch. And I was thinking about it because I you know, as we enter the moment of personal agents, like, lot there there's obviously work applications, but a lot of the demos that I've seen people talk about are things that feel aligned to the original looped vision. It's like, if my friends are in town, let's plan a barbecue, let's order the food, let's go to the restaurant, let's get the reservation.
Speaker 1:But I'm wondering,
Speaker 2:is this a full circle moment for you?
Speaker 5:It's interesting. It didn't feel like that until right when you said Okay. Now I guess it sort of is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'm wondering how you have been using DOTS, how you think this will actually instantiate itself into people's lives. It's so easy to lean into the work side, but this feels like a reinvigorating moment for OpenAI consumer company.
Speaker 5:Look, sadly, all I do these days is work so I've mostly been using it for and I hang out with my family. Sure. Really the only two. But I I I have mostly been using it for work. Yeah.
Speaker 5:And it is amazing for that. And I feel like it has gotten me back like my attention and time and ability to like explore and do new things and I love it for that. Yeah. I have not yet figured out how to like go use this to have more fun in my personal life. But I'm inspired to go do that.
Speaker 2:But you're yeah. You're optimistic that people will ultimately do that. I feel like, you know, OpenAI has been called like the accidental consumer company. Yeah. And at the same time, the vision seems to be like actually get AI in the hands of people and maybe let's not end up in a future where that means everyone working twenty four seven.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 5:A 100 I I You know, think the world's always confused when we talk about AI about whether we want we're worried people are gonna have to work too much or too little. Yeah. But I think it's great to give people like more time to hang out with their kids, do their hobbies, work on creative new projects. I think most people actually want that, and I really feel it with thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:So I yeah. I think people are gonna get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What has the last I mean, we the last time we talked was a couple months ago or maybe more than six months ago on the show. It's been a wild time. Like, a lot of things have gone right. Seems.
Speaker 2:Crazy. The there's some numbers that leaked today, but it seems like some things changed. How do you tell the story of the last six months or so?
Speaker 5:I mean, think the answer is it's all just one jagged exponential that
Speaker 6:Okay.
Speaker 5:Is going and probably the next six months will be even crazier. Yeah. The the technology has been capable for a while. It's gotten much more capable. But it takes a while for a technology like this to diffuse through society.
Speaker 5:And I think in the last six months people are using it much more. And now with these sort of always on agents, I think people will again go through a period where they're like, wow. I can really use this in all kinds of ways and this is like a significant new thing in my life that's helping me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So is this a moment to sort of like pay down the capability overhang right now?
Speaker 5:You know, when you were talking about how, you know, you can use this to like do the stuff that we were talking thinking about twenty years ago and like book a restaurant and you know, coordinate with my friends.
Speaker 1:And I
Speaker 5:was kind of like laughing at my head because I was like, yes, you can do that but it can also like solve the greatest problem. Yeah. And so the delta in capability between, you know, some of the stuff we're talking about now and what these models are so smart
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Can do is just gonna take us a while to figure all that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What have you learned this year about the sequence of events? I was shocked by if you had told me that there was gonna be hugging face and then, Navier Stokes. And then after that, I saw the first person said, I used ChechiPN to book me a haircut. I would have not predicted that those things happen in that order.
Speaker 2:Like, I maybe would have predicted that they all happen in the future. Yeah. But that would have predicted we get the haircut first and and I'm wondering if you've learned anything about not just predicting the future but the sequence of events.
Speaker 5:I mean, one of the obvious things is just people want their lives to be a little easier. Yeah. And actually I think more people are interested in just their lives being a little bit less hectic, a little easier than they are in whatever Navier Stokes can do for
Speaker 6:them. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Or at least their direct experience.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 5:So but I think the cool thing about this is that models that are this capable can are going to be applied to make people's lives better in big and small ways
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:In ways that we can't even really imagine today. And, you know, I think the fact that we all talk about haircuts and booking haircuts is like a it's a failure of imagination Sure. But the way it gets corrected is all these people here.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 5:Like as I've had a little bit of time today to talk to what people are building here, like I am amazed at the creative spirit of what people are building for each other with this technology. And I think it's been think it's been one of the greatest surprises of the last six months is seeing like just how far people are pushing the developer tools to build this amazing new stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Talk about some of the new functionality, being able to log in with ChatGPT and basically bring compute with you anywhere across the internet. Because to me that was that was There was a bunch of great moments earlier, but to me the moment that stood out is imagining as an independent developer that has been sort of held back by their ability to scale cool products because hey, I can't just start losing $20,000 a day serving free users.
Speaker 5:I think it's so important to build an open ecosystem here and we want people to take well, to bring whatever they want into ChatGPT, run other apps there, but also to take their subscription and go use it elsewhere.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And any harness you want, any service you want, like this is I have been disappointed to see other companies with subscriptions go in the other direction. Like, this is a thing you buy and you should be able to take it with you anywhere and you should be able to go use all of the wonderful things these people are building. And I think we're gonna push that much further.
Speaker 2:How do you think about the potential transition from OpenAI's products being very poll focused as as I mean, like, the app is there. Unless I come to it with a question with a prompt, it doesn't do anything to a world where my dot might message me. And then you get into how much is it messaging me, how much is it pulling me in, what are the retention? There's there's a lot of potential risks with that. Right?
Speaker 5:It it Yeah. I mean, there's clearly ways that people could misuse or growth hack the fact that AIs can, you know, ping you a lot. Yeah. I'm sure we'll see some companies get that wrong. We're gonna try very hard to not do that.
Speaker 5:But I my own experience over the last few weeks is I actually want more. Mhmm. Like I think we've tuned the dial a little too conservatively for now. And the fact that everything my dot sends me is something I want means I think there's something still left on the table. But I can easily see how this goes wrong in the other direction and we'll have to figure out how we're gonna navigate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'll often open ChatGPT and realize there's a very important email that I need to respond to. It somehow got mixed up and then you're like, you kind wish it pinged you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What can you say, any advice for, let's say, public company CEOs that want to maintain a start up's culture at scale? Because that's something like, OpenAI is still a private company, But the impression of seeing how this company works is that it's not just like, yeah, we act like a startup at scale. Like it's actually like that. It's like incredibly scrappy. It's very small groups of people trying to do the impossible on impossible timelines.
Speaker 1:And something that something that you're doing is is working because it allows us like incredible velocity. It's not just the models.
Speaker 5:Someone said to me a few days ago that joined OpenAI somewhat recently and had been at a big kind of slow ish public company before, was that the key is to have the work and expectations per person go up over time. And the way that big companies go wrong is there's too many people with not enough to do and they kind of like fight each other over like fake levels of work. If everybody is really busy with real impact and there's the the amount of work per person and stuff to do per person keeps increasing, then you can fight the like slow drag and politics of a big company.
Speaker 2:On the flip side of that, I feel like there's a lot of companies that are going through sort of a slopification and they're fighting slop grenades. I've I've wondered if the like, the correct KPI is maybe we should all be producing the same amount of words in our emails.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's okay if if AI is involved, but you don't just wanna take every text message and turn it into a 20 page document. No. Right?
Speaker 5:We fight super hard against the slop grenade. Yeah. And the many slop grenades. And I think just like very strong cultural norms.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:That if you are writing something and then you are having chat GBT expand it, and then somebody else is gonna have chat GBT summarize it back to your bullet points
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 5:The right answer is to just
Speaker 2:send the bullet Send the bullet points.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've told some people just send me the prompt and I can I can expand it myself Yeah? In my mind sometimes. How are you thinking about compute these days? There's so many different, you know, battles and and different markets across consumer and enterprise.
Speaker 2:What is the plan for the next couple of years?
Speaker 5:To build a lot more compute.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 5:One one thing that OpenAI has that doesn't get as much attention is our chip program
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Which will start to come online in the first half of next of twenty twenty seven and will scale a lot in future years Yeah. I think gives us a huge inference advantage for whatever for whatever like watts we can find
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 5:In the world. And given the growth demand we are seeing across consumer, developer, enterprise, really everywhere, and to say nothing of like people are gonna love dots and then they're gonna say, well, can I have 10 dots or 20 dots or a 100 dots or whatever? We will have to make more efficient models, more efficient chips, and figure out how to build a lot more infrastructure.
Speaker 2:How do you see the user experience across the different models, the different cost and speed being vended to the actual end user. Is that something you wanna maintain forever because developers love hearing about 6.1 Soul in ultra fast mode? Or are there consumers you know, I noticed Dots doesn't have Yeah. A model picker.
Speaker 5:I think people are really tired of the model picker and they're like model, you know, what it like, this model, that model. Like like we wanna find a way to really simplify that. Like the dream is that there is a single model and it kinda makes great decisions for you. And you can maybe turn a speed dial when you really need it and a cost dial when you don't. But, you know, we're talking about like models that can book haircuts versus solve Navier Stokes.
Speaker 5:Mhmm. I think this model should be able to figure out a lot of the trade offs and we should be able to do a good job with routing. I think we'll always offer choice to developers.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. They're sometimes you wanna drive a Ferrari to the grocery store.
Speaker 5:Sometimes you do. So I think we'll always offer that choice but most of the time you don't. Yeah. You know, most of the a minivan to the
Speaker 1:grocery store and the
Speaker 5:track and the model should like be able to make that smoother.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you feel like you have more or less clarity around the future than you did a decade ago? Because when, again, I always I always encourage people to look back at at your blog in the sort of 2015, 2016 era because there was a bunch of things that you and and other people that were writing at the time just like pretty much nailed entirely. And I go through life now knowing that there's people out there that have like very accurate predictions around the future and sometimes there's an incentive to share, sometimes there isn't. But but how do you think about your own forecasting ability?
Speaker 5:It's nice of you to say that. There's like plenty of things I was wrong about too. Yeah. Like, you know, I try to leave the wrong predictions up, obviously. Yeah.
Speaker 5:But I think the important point is like, you get some things right, some things wrong. I think we'll be very right about some things. I think we'll be very right that intelligence continues. I think we'll be very right about the rate of scientific discovery.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:I think we'll be very right about how people kind of are gonna have the same things that they care about and drives in their lives ten years from now they have from today. And even with this like amazing intelligence, a lot of parts of life are gonna stay the same. But then a lot of the details and kind of
Speaker 1:what order science goes in or whether it's, you know, haircuts or hugging face or Navier Stokes first, I'm sure we'll be wrong about. It feels like that the leadership skill or or basically having the mentality of a of a venture investor and somebody that's made a bunch of very long term bets makes people very well suited for today in the sense that having that openness to if I get three things out of 10 right and I get them really right, then then that's great. Like it it sort of pays for all the other bets.
Speaker 5:One of the things that I think is coolest about this new generation of people building with AI is you can try something so quickly and so cheaply that if you have if you are a developer and you have 30 ideas, the canonical advice that was correct two years ago is pick one and put all of your effort into it because you can't build 30 things. You can now build all 30 things Mhmm. And you can get people to use them all. And then you can work more on the ones that work. So I think this mindset of lots of ideas, quick feedback, and be open to a lot of things not working is great for this new era of how how people build.
Speaker 2:I have one more question that we wanna get you to hit the gong. On alignment, you've been deep in the weeds, I'm sure. There was a debate I saw, is it an engineering problem? Is it a science problem? Is there a different frame of mind that we should be approaching alignment with?
Speaker 5:I I think it's like all of those things but it's certainly incorrect to talk about this only as an engineering problem. Okay. Anyone who says we have solved the science of alignment, I believe is wrong Okay. In a very dangerous way. Like we need to make more research progress.
Speaker 5:I assume we will. We've been great at making this research progress. And of course there's a lot of engineering work to do too. Know, we need to continue to figure out how to build better sandboxes and better monitoring tools. But eventually, we If we are going to create models that are like much much smarter than all of us, we have to actually solve the science of alignment.
Speaker 2:Have we considered moving away from the term sandbox? Because I have a five year old, if I put him in a sandbox, he's not gonna stay there. I think we might need a new term.
Speaker 5:I can't unfortunately just stay in
Speaker 2:the sand. Oh, okay. Okay.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:maybe yeah. But but, you know
Speaker 5:Different alignment. But but No. Think The
Speaker 1:models are I think I this up, John. Okay. Let's How do I do this? Just however you want. With I just like bigger.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There
Speaker 2:we go.
Speaker 1:There you go. With authority. Thanks
Speaker 2:for having
Speaker 7:me on.
Speaker 2:To sign this as big as possible. Big signature right there on the gong. Thank you. This is going in the Museum of Business at the TBPN UltraDome. Thank you so
Speaker 1:much for coming on the show. Great to see you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Congratulations on a great DevDay. We will move on to our next guest. We have a few more hopping on the show. We have Alexander Embiricos jumping on in just a minute.
Speaker 2:We will
Speaker 1:A legend.
Speaker 2:With him on all things Codex. We need a slop grenade button.
Speaker 8:Being able to Alright.
Speaker 2:That's Ben in the chat. That's great.
Speaker 1:We could sort of simulate that if we have a a remote, you know, remote guest on. We could say, hey. Can check check out Oh. I have an idea I have an idea I have an idea for you. What do you think of this?
Speaker 1:And then you throw like a a six page
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. I was thinking a slop grenade would be like, you go full back to Nickelodeon slime, and when you push the button, it just slams Tyler with it and he just
Speaker 1:I think
Speaker 2:that's the one we gotta go. Don't know if
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. Look at look over here. You got a a crowd.
Speaker 2:The crowd
Speaker 1:chasing chasing Sam around.
Speaker 2:They want more tokens. Give us Gotta be
Speaker 1:careful with this signed Gong.
Speaker 2:Yes. Oh, yeah. That's a hot commodity.
Speaker 1:Over in Washington Oh. CNBC reporter was trying and failing to interview tech CEOs at the White House. Alex Karp just took the microphone out of his hand and started asking them his own questions. Interesting. He's he's No.
Speaker 1:He's literally They're they're doing like a man on the street interview. Yeah. And just just carp took the wheel.
Speaker 2:That's yeah. That's great. Well, there's more stories. We'll get to those in just a few minutes. But let's bring on Alexander.
Speaker 1:There he is.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show. We're gonna have you throw that headset on. Do you need anything to drink? This is warmer water. Okay.
Speaker 1:Hey,
Speaker 3:guys. Welcome back
Speaker 1:to the show. Always great How see
Speaker 2:how is this DevDay for you?
Speaker 4:I mean, apart from the outage, excellent.
Speaker 5:Okay. Yeah. They they Wait.
Speaker 1:Outage? Global outage going on? Yeah. We had a bit
Speaker 4:of an outage. The demos, like, you know, I haven't like deeply read up on what exactly happened, but like, because we launched 6.1 SALT, it just immediately got hammered. Yeah. We did that Oh,
Speaker 1:yeah. That's a that's a lesson. That's like the meta connect last year. Bozz accidentally set off like the the key the the Keyword. The wake word.
Speaker 1:The wake word, but every device in the whole space started going off Yeah. And then crashed everything.
Speaker 2:So Yeah.
Speaker 4:Positive framing is a champagne problem. But broadly, this DevDay, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:When I joined the company, like, little over two years ago Yeah. Like, this moment is the moment I've been looking forward to the entire time.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 4:You know, like, we had this chat. We invented that that paradigm. It it was awesome, informational, couldn't do things for you. Mhmm. Okay.
Speaker 4:Then we had coding agents, agents that could do things. Awesome. That's the next level. But you still have to like really babysit it and figure out like what am I gonna ask this agent to do. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We are finally at the stage where I can go to someone and say, hey, if you want to do something manually, do it with Codex. Yep. If you want to delegate it Sure. Go use a dot.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right? And this dot, it has your back. It figures out how to help you. It just helps you get so much more value out of this.
Speaker 4:For me, I been looking forward to this for years.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Does it feel like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's the
Speaker 1:same it's the same sorry to jump in, but it's the same dynamic of, like, if you had a bunch of if you basically had a bunch of people on your team that would just sort of flag information but then not take any action, they're like, hey, this thing. It's happening. Okay. You're like, okay. Like, why don't you do something about it?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Because I I I like that. But I would actually say, like, Codex is actually more like a principal engineer
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:But who doesn't, like, initially, unless you tell them exactly to do it, doesn't read, like, linear or like doesn't check Slack. And so the super smart principal engineer but, you know, you have to make sure you you sort of give it the right instructions.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Whereas Dot, it's like you have that principal engineer because your Dot has its own computer. It can do anything that you can do on a computer in the cloud. Yep. It can also connect to your computer.
Speaker 4:So if you have a really awesome local codec setup, it can actually go use that. Yep. Except that it has its own identity in Slack. And so it's available wherever you talk. And, you know, I don't know if you guys have seen this, but it's or for anyone listening, the way that dots show up in Slack isn't just like a random name like wisp.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. We we tried that. Had we had agents with random names.
Speaker 1:And no one knew what
Speaker 4:was going on. Was a bit confusing. Sure. But they show up with like your username, so like I'm AE. It's like AE dash dot
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 4:In Slack. And so you have all these these people and their delegates just doing stuff together. Yeah. You know, principal engineer level capability. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Or or if you're not an engineer, just, you know, maximum capability.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, the the the demo that I saw just randomly through a friend was, we were looking for Sam Altman's headshot, and we were able to delegate that to a dot that was able to go find like a file in a file system that's easy, but just that little retrieval would be a couple clicks on a web browser, and now it's just
Speaker 1:Not even a couple clicks. It's like searching around folders.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's like, yeah, digging through stuff. And so, yeah, it feels like we're we're hitting this inflection point of, like, leaving just the developer workflows and getting into, like, everyone's workflows. Totally. And you always had the pro, like, the prosumer of the enterprise who was like, oh, yeah. They're a sales rep, but they also use Codex.
Speaker 2:And now it's like, there is a product that's approachable for everyone. Are you it feels like there's the expansion of territory that's happening within businesses, and then there's also, like, different types of businesses that are able to actually get a great value, started with software development firms and and software companies. Are video game developers the next leg up? Like, who are you seeing here at DevDay that you're like, oh, I I I I haven't actually talked to that many of your that many folks in your industry, and and and maybe the progress in Astra is flowing through. I mean, that's what my experience was.
Speaker 2:I was modeling stuff in Blender. I haven't touched three d rendering for a long time and I can I'm building video games and stuff. And and I saw that, okay, this is we've crossed this the spike of intelligence has spiked beyond what's relevant in this particular category. And I'm wondering where else you're seeing it or what Yeah. What what's been the most visceral to
Speaker 1:you?
Speaker 4:So so I agree that, like, I think for video games, like, with the stuff we've been seeing people make with Astra
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Absolutely awesome. And so therefore, because DOTS run on Astra
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 4:We've just seen people having DOTS just, like, autonomously building, like, really fun games and stuff. So that's that's awesome, I agree with that. But actually I think the the audience that I'm the most excited for to like get even more capability is maybe like solopreneurs or like small business owners Totally. Yeah. Actually because you know that's where you're you're doing absolutely everything that your business needs Yeah.
Speaker 4:That you're just like swamped with all the stuff incoming. Yeah. And that's where having a dot that just like has your back and it's like managing all this stuff for you. Yeah. Doing the work that maybe you could have done before with Astra but it was just like a lot of work to figure out that that work even needed doing Yeah.
Speaker 4:Is helpful. So I've heard, obviously, a lot of great anecdotes from engineers,
Speaker 2:like Yep.
Speaker 4:People waking up in the morning to kudos from their team because their team was collaborating with a dot and to help them out. Like, good job for having a dot that did this Yeah. Yeah. Which is so fun. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But, you know, we also have a lot of great anecdotes from from, like, people in completely other areas. So, like, you know, running the launch, like, dots going around realizing that, oh, this thing about the product changed, so we need to go update the blog. Or, like, you know, your travel plans for this conference have changed. So let me just, like, organize things for you. So yeah.
Speaker 2:Walk me through the specialist dots. Like, is that a more of, a mental framing for the user to let them know that this capability is there? Is there actual, like, the harness matters narrative where you do want to go to that particular dot, or is it because I can imagine as a solo entrepreneur, it's just valuable to say, okay. I at least have, like, one arrow in the quiver for legal, one arrow in the quiver for finance, etcetera. But also, these models are pretty general.
Speaker 2:And the the the the g in AGI sort of leads you to throw, you know, codex, Astra, Ultra at every problem. So how do you think about coaching people through that dynamic?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, so there's two things going on here. So we've we've got DOTS
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And we've got specialist DOTS. Yep. And the reason we're leading with DOTS first is, like, just very related to our mission. Right? Sure.
Speaker 4:Deliver benefits of AGI to all humanity. And, you know, when I think about product, I want that to be palpable. Like, I want every person to have direct access to something that is empowering them, extending them
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Helping them move faster. And so those are dots. And those dots, you know, each person has one. Have more in the future. And it works, you know, extending you.
Speaker 4:So using your connectors, for instance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right? So that's great. But when you think about how you how you like scale the the amount to which this capability is deployed within enterprise, there's actually a shift that we're starting to see happening that these are a part of. Right? One of those shifts is like moving from local work on someone's computer to moving and working the Sure.
Speaker 4:Right? And so specialist dots have their own computer just like dots. The other shift is actually moving away from working with like an individual's identity to moving with an IT managed, centrally governed, well controlled identity. And we actually had an announcement going out today about how we're working with Microsoft on that as well. And so if you are a team or an organization and you have a specific type of like functional work that you would like to like accelerate the whole team with Yeah.
Speaker 4:That's where you deploy specialist on. So it could be something like procurement or accounting. Those are some of the early place we've seen a lot of success. Yeah. But ultimately, broadly, we see that it'll be useful in many more functions Yeah.
Speaker 4:And departments.
Speaker 2:Personally, I feel like I don't know. Maybe I'm just, like, too much of a normie, but I feel like this is the frame of mind that I wanna there's, like, the merge where you the AI becomes you. And if I wanna send you a message, it comes from me, but the AI is, like, puppeteering me. And I actually prefer the idea of, like, I have an assistant, and they are their own entity. And they have their own phone number and email eventually, and I can share information with them.
Speaker 2:And they are on my team, but I am still me. Yeah. And I think that that is something that I I would bet on that being relatable to a lot.
Speaker 4:Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We'll see. I don't know how yeah.
Speaker 4:I actually made some, like, pretty funny mistakes as we were building this product.
Speaker 8:Had
Speaker 4:Yeah. To pull Yeah. And so, okay, I totally agree with what you said, and then I'll tell you about the
Speaker 1:Someone like Astro. What is what's he writing about me from a performance report?
Speaker 4:Well, no. That actually there's lot of layers of defense
Speaker 1:that that's not gonna take
Speaker 4:that information. But no, it's more like what we realized is that, again, there's this kind of like this this bifurcation. Right? Like Sure. I want my dots to augment me and so maybe I want to collaborate on an email and then I'm good.
Speaker 4:I just did that from within the ChatchPT app and I hit send. Right? Yep. That should just look like me, but, you know, I I approved that email to be Yep. Sent.
Speaker 4:I made a mistake about that, I'll tell you about. And then on the other hand, you know, we had we had for a while all these agents just sort of acting sort of as us, sending messages as us. It was like sent by ChatHPT internally. Yep. And it was like fine, but it kind of like started to get noisy.
Speaker 4:Yep. And so that's when we kind of iterated our way towards, no, we're gonna have like a strongly separate identity. They're gonna look different. Yeah. And we've got these characters.
Speaker 4:Yep. We're gonna have like a name that like clearly is like owner dash bot. Yeah. Right? And that just like clarified everything that was going on in communication.
Speaker 4:Totally. So it's awesome.
Speaker 2:And I love I love the idea of like, look, sometimes the amount of back and forth and compute that's gonna be dedicated to some negotiation. If we're trying to find even just a time to get lunch, they might be the our dots might be going back for a long time, but it's not gonna ever be like, you opened your messages to me, and it's a flood of messages because they were going back and forth. It it happened below the fold, and then you you can, you know, you you can abstract that away
Speaker 1:as you Agreed. Need Very cool. Gonna set up a dot where every time I get a, like, a startup pitch deck that's just clearly AI generated, it'll generate a playable video game Oh, that I can just go through go through the deck Yeah. In the form of like, you
Speaker 2:know It's impossible.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But that's totally a thing you could do.
Speaker 1:No, know. I'm joking but it's it's actually
Speaker 4:So here here's an interesting thing about space, right, and sites, which is like a lot of the tools that we use to do work today are optimized for human authoring.
Speaker 6:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Okay. So what I mean by that is like, you know, I think documents. Right? Like you go into a document and it's like you can type into it. Right?
Speaker 4:Sure. And the way that your document can look is like pretty simple. It's like text. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 4:And like yeah, various document editors have like fancy ways for you to go in and like move the images around and stuff, but it all generally kind of sucks. Yeah. Because the tool is well designed for humans. Like it I think those tools are good.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Even though they're a little inflexible. But now that we have dots and we're collaborating with them, we have AI, HTML authoring is like basically free.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right? And so like I love how space incorporates like HTML visualization.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 4:So you could just be like, hey, build me this artifact that I can click around or like literally put a game in the doc or whatever Yeah. In the page. And it's super interactive. And I think this is like sort of the paradigm shift that we're starting to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How do you think about the road to and the benefits of actual direct integrations? Because at the end of the day, like, if I have some service that's that I wanna interact with, like, are APIs. There's ways there's computer use at this point. Like, everything is somewhat connected.
Speaker 2:What's the benefit of actually directly engaging with OpenAI doing a proper connection? What are the benefits? What are the costs?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, there's there's a few layers here. Yeah. I think it starts with Yeah. Now that our agents can use the same tools that we use Mhmm. I computers Yeah.
Speaker 4:Then there's kind of this baseline. Right? Like your agent, if you wanted to and allow it to, it can go to anything. And I do wanna emphasize that like dots have many layers of like safety protections and one of them is custom rules. Right?
Speaker 4:So if you're a company and you want to limit what exactly DOTS can do with various tools, like there's a very easy affordance for you to go in and do that. Yeah. But okay. So that's your baseline. Right?
Speaker 4:The next layer that I think we could talk about is like connectors. And mostly it's just like it makes things faster and lets your product be a little bit more opinionated. Yeah. Just improves the experience for everyone. Yeah.
Speaker 4:The the other sort of form of integration that I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but that I'm really excited about is plug in extensions.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So, you know, we've long had this idea that like you or there's actually a fun debate in this industry. Right? Which is like to what extent should UI be generated just in time for the user?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:And we're doing a lot of interesting work here. Yeah. And there's like some some cool stuff coming out soon around that. But my opinion is that for UI that I'm gonna click around in, generally want it to be somewhat predictable. So I know where the button is.
Speaker 4:I can achieve mastery over this tool. But we don't wanna be the only people deciding that. We want other people to be able to build their own UIs for our users. And so something super cool is that now if you're a ChatGPT user, you can install a plug in that is a plug in extension that actually renders like custom UI, custom pages just in the ChatGPT app. So if you're a developer listening to this, you have the ability to go reach your customers directly.
Speaker 4:And the the meetings plug in that we just launched today is an example of this. It's like a fully arm's length plug in integration.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Then what I I I so I feel the same way about on the fly UI generation, custom UI. I am excited about that. At the same time, I can I can sit here and talk to somebody who's extremely bullish on voice interfaces, and they think that, like, everything should be vended over, conversational voice interface? And I feel like OpenAI has kept enough irons in the fire across all these different paradigms.
Speaker 2:Is there a tension there? Is that deliberate? Is there an idea that to reach everyone to hit 1,200,000,000 now or wow, like, you don't you don't want to actually go all in and and narrow. You need to meet people where they are across multiple modalities.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I would I would say so, like, this is something TBP said earlier today. It's like, at some point, it's about the active intelligence and the interface stops mattering. Yeah. And, you know, my my, like, slight way of reframing that would be, the interface should just be whatever you want.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right? So like, I'm a product manager, so I spend a lot of my day in Slack, and so I mostly talk to my dot in Slack.
Speaker 2:Oh, sure.
Speaker 4:Right? Yeah. But then when I'm commuting
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like I was coming in today, I knew I was gonna have a bunch of conversations. I was just talking to my dot, like about the day and what I to be prepared for. It was like grilling me on some hard questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know? Holly earlier at the demo the keynote today was talking about how like actually the the anecdote was kinda me. Like I saw her in this phone booth all the time and I I was gonna give her some feedback. I'm like, why are you in so many meetings? Like shouldn't we be like not in meetings?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And then she's like, you know, was talking about Dot and I realized this and I'm like, wow, this is crazy. We've like unearthed a completely new paradigm. Yeah. So going back to your thing about irons in the fire, like, I think that some of these things are kind of emergent.
Speaker 4:Like, I I really love talking to my dot over voice. Mhmm. But the way that that happened is the voice team that was working on Dots did an amazing job, but it was kind of like we combined these two capabilities. And because both irons were very hot, they combined really well. Sure.
Speaker 4:You know, but if you had started from scratch, I don't think we would have gotten to such a great outcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Is. What?
Speaker 1:I've noticed that I don't think people here have this problem, but as I was thinking about, you you remember this viral video, this guy Jim from Charleston AI? Did you see this?
Speaker 4:Oh, you might have to refresh Basically, my
Speaker 1:he has a retail store in Charleston that's
Speaker 2:Physical store that you walk You
Speaker 1:can walk in and he'll teach you like how to use codecs
Speaker 8:and That's cool.
Speaker 1:HTTP work. Yeah. And I've just noticed this thing where normal people outside of the tech industry don't just know you can ask the AI, can you do this thing? Yeah. And it's like, it feels like as there's 20 new launches today and it feels like the biggest bottleneck is like effective product marketing to the sort of long tail of users on how to use these different tools.
Speaker 1:When somebody asked me, hey can I do this thing with ChatGPT? I'd say, well have you asked ChatGPT that? Like it'll sort of explain the general capability set and then maybe like even prompt you on how to prompt it. Yeah. Etcetera.
Speaker 1:But it feels like outside of San Francisco that's like the biggest bottleneck to like adoption and diffusion is just people not realizing that the best teacher for the thing is not even necessarily a YouTube video about it. It's like being able to go back and forth.
Speaker 4:Well I mean two things on that. First thanks for having me on the show. Know this
Speaker 2:is fun.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The second point though I think is that at least when I hear that, you know, I I think this is actually a product problem as
Speaker 1:well. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like if the product I mean it's so powerful. Right? These open ended sort of chat interfaces Yeah. You can ask whatever you want. But it's it's hard to to realize that you can you can try that.
Speaker 4:Like I I I find that very understandable. And so that's part of why I'm so excited about DOTS in this era of active intelligence is that, well, maybe I don't have to realize that I that I can ask for help for finding the headshot. Yeah. You know? It it'll just notice that someone was urgently asking me for the headshot.
Speaker 4:Yep. And so it might just go ahead and proactively research like where is the headshot? And they come to me like, hey, someone asked you for the headshot. I happen to know where the headshot is already. Yep.
Speaker 4:Do you want me to send it? Yep. Right? And so I think we we're about to achieve this like step function change in how much value people are getting from existing models. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right? God is built on g p d six Astra. Yeah. And yet it's going to unlock so much value for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Know. It's an exciting time. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Thanks for
Speaker 1:having me.
Speaker 2:Have a great rest of your DevDay. Yeah. And we will move on our next guest, Andrew Ambrosino, is coming on from OpenAI. We will bring him on, have him throw on this headset and introduce himself. Because I believe this is your first time on the show, correct?
Speaker 3:This is my first time Welcome. Welcome.
Speaker 7:Good to
Speaker 2:meet you, too. So much for hopping on. Give us a little tour of your day to day, your role. Yeah. Introduce yourself for everyone.
Speaker 3:So since the original Codex app, I've led that team who runs desktop from the Codex app to now. And I've also picked up leading the space team
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 6:From the
Speaker 3:space product.
Speaker 1:You needed needed some more on your plate.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Wasn't enough, man. Yeah. I Desktop was solved.
Speaker 2:Give us a give us an overview of your experience with like the merge, putting everything together. There's been so many hard decisions, so many band aids to rip off, I feel like. Yeah. What's it actually been like? What's gone well?
Speaker 2:What do you wish you could redo?
Speaker 3:This is my merge shirt.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Maybe maybe introduce the idea of the merge because there is that Sam Altman blog post from a decade ago about the merge and that's a different thing.
Speaker 3:That's a different thing. Well, there's been a series of merges.
Speaker 2:Okay. Should we merge them all together? We should
Speaker 3:merge the merges.
Speaker 2:Okay. We split, we merge. Do that eventually.
Speaker 3:No. I mean, we had this great app with Codex. Yeah. And we had ChatGPT that served a billion users. Yep.
Speaker 3:And we needed to find a way to join these two worlds and bring the agentic side of Codex
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:And this app into ChatGPT with chat work.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:Of course, when we launched it originally, there were still like a lot of things that didn't match up. And so Yeah. We've been working on merging those. We had two great merges today Mhmm. That are a little bit under the radar actually.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Look at that.
Speaker 3:One of them is that we completely re rewrote chatgpt.com in the last five weeks
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:To be the Codex app. Wait. Your pinned tweet Yes.
Speaker 2:It says, I'm I'm going dark for six weeks or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yep. Right?
Speaker 2:That's what this was? Yeah. Okay. Now we know.
Speaker 3:So now we've got we've got the same Codex desktop experience you're used to, the Chat GPT desktop experience
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Is now chatgpt.com.
Speaker 2:Okay. Got it.
Speaker 3:Cool. And then the second merge that we've done is now by default, ChatGPT work on the desktop.
Speaker 6:Yes.
Speaker 3:Works on the cloud. Okay. And still has access to your local machine.
Speaker 2:Got
Speaker 3:it. So you've got these threads everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Codex Cloud, we launched today.
Speaker 2:But what that means is like, by default, you will be able to do something that needs a file system, that needs some local ish compute, even though it's in the cloud. Yes. You won't have that fit you won't have that tension between like, am I just in a ChatGPT thread that's sort of like short lived versus I gotta go to my computer? Now, by default, you have more cloud access.
Speaker 3:One of the things that we really like about all of our new products today whether Yeah. That's the Dots, the Codex Cloud
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:ChatGPT Work. Yep. All of this stuff is running in the cloud and has access to your local machine if it needs it. So if you've got files in your local machine, if you're logged into all your browsers on your local machine Mhmm. The whole system, we are we are working on this merge.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And we we are next working on the toggle merges.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Are are
Speaker 1:you So so so question How for do you how do you balance trusting your own instinct around product decisions? Because obviously you would never make a big product decision that you thought was gonna lead to a worse experience Mhmm. With real time user feedback around how things were because people We were just talking with Andrew, people build up a habit around different flows and different ways that the product can be oriented and then they sort of get build an attachment to it and so even if it needs to change, it can be it can be jarring. But you're, you guys are sort of like drinking from the fire hose of user feedback every single day and whether you're taking like going offline for five or six weeks or whatever you did, I'm sure you're getting like tags and comments and messages constantly being like, do this, do that, do this, do that.
Speaker 3:Lots of tags, yeah. I think when it comes down to it, we we want to put these capabilities into people's hands. Mhmm. And so it becomes obvious that even even if for whatever reason we can't make it, you know, we can't bring chat and work together quite yet. What we knew was that what we were getting out of Codex had to be brought to everybody.
Speaker 3:And now we feel similarly with space, with dots, all of this stuff. We try to put the capabilities into people's hands. We dog food it extensively internally so we've got thousands of people who rely on the stuff to do every part of their job. So we get good feedback loop there. But it's all a work in progress.
Speaker 3:The stuff is moving incredibly quickly as you know. Yeah. Lots of tags on on X Yeah. All the time and and we love that.
Speaker 2:Can you walk me through how there's this culture of like, side project what was it? Side quest was the buzzword. Yep. Sometimes they get killed off.
Speaker 3:No more side quests.
Speaker 2:No more side quests. But sometimes they get brought back. Like, all the computer used stuff that's going on. Yep. Huge like leap forward out of nowhere, but you go back two years ago, I remember Operator.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:That was like, was it a side quest? Or was it really important work to do because it sets you up for this moment? And I'm wondering if there's prehistory for any of the new products today like space or anything else that you've touched on where you've like, oh yeah, like actually we we we revisited some work we did previously in a product. It wasn't quite there. The model got better.
Speaker 2:We were ready to launch.
Speaker 3:I think most of the stuff that we released today is like a take five. Yeah. Even even just of things that we did internally. There were so many variations of of DOTS Yeah. We saw internally, played around with, some were local, some were cloud.
Speaker 3:Like, there were so many variations of the stuff that we used. Space has gone through a number of iterations. We had part of chat called Canvas that we had up for a while.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:We've had a lot of internal knowledge based products. So, we've we've gone through the revs on on that. Codex Cloud is obviously a full two point o. Yeah. The original Codex was Cloud, then we got into a local agent era.
Speaker 3:And now we're back putting the, you know, the full local agent on Cloud environment. So, I think everything that you see today is one of those operator stories or that, you know, operator to Atlas to to Codecs, right? Yeah. Sometimes I think that the models are changing so fast that it's hard to get the product timing on these things exactly right to the model Yeah. When the model is best at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, sometimes you know, slightly too early, slightly. Right? And but I think, like, the stuff that we have out today feels feels magical.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So tell us more about space. What is the vision, especially for where that product goes? How it fits into like a, just a typical person's workflow in the modern era.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We find ourselves bouncing around between applications all day. Of course. We're, you know, in this, in the Codex desktop app, ChatGitut desktop app, all sorts of documents. We're sharing things across Slack.
Speaker 3:And so we wanted to make something that felt very agent native and felt like a way to collaborate with other teammates. Yeah. Their dots as well. Right? Sure.
Speaker 3:Something that you can kind of curate the set of of teamwork. Yeah. That you're you're tagging each other in. You're able to use it in a way that feels like an extension of ChatGPT. And so this is really the entry of Codex and ChatGPT into a multiplayer, more collaborative era.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And we're gonna do a lot more here.
Speaker 2:How do you think about actually like, the balance between how how heavy your hand is on the instantiation of UI on the fly? Like, I I noticed this weird thing just happened randomly and just just I believe default chat GPT, I was asking, like, is it a particularly hot summer? And it pulled historical weather data from my local weather station, and it created this chart. And when I would scroll over it, it had haptic feedback where the phone would vibrate. And I was like, is that someone at OpenAI, like, being like, we should put haptics in this thing, or did the model do that?
Speaker 2:And then if I love that, am I able to sort of productize that within my organization to be like, the way we do charts at this company, there's haptic feedback? Like, how does this flow from what you get for free Yeah. Versus what you put your finger on the scale with versus what an individual user might want as a pattern? That's kind of what
Speaker 5:I'm
Speaker 3:This is what I'm I am I am very passionate about, this subject. And I think, you know, a few months ago with with Codex, we brought this visualize skill
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That kind of makes you eye on the fly. It's It can either be a full game. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:In space, you can make a chess game and play it with other people if they have access to the page. Sure. That's kinda crazy. That is Finally. Finally.
Speaker 3:The people the people are asking for it. Right?
Speaker 2:It's like split on this decision. Let's play chess for
Speaker 3:it. I think the the one that you were describing
Speaker 1:When I can one v one someone in Rust. Yes. M w two. Out the box.
Speaker 3:Well, and the dot computer actually has a few games preloaded onto it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:Which is kind of fun. The dot can play solitaire.
Speaker 2:You can
Speaker 3:watch it.
Speaker 1:Sure. If you wanna use set it off just to play if I just want it to entertain itself and play
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Background, I can do that too. No. You can. If I'm not there. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've had I've had Kodak's play Slay the Spire from start to finish.
Speaker 1:I think
Speaker 3:the the one that you're talking with the weather, that one
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Is a is an extra challenge because Yeah. You can't you can't have your instant chat model Yeah. Writing a full web app every time. Sure. Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so, this is one that we've worked on a lot and Okay. It's it's it's, you know, the research is is finally kind of there to make it feel excellent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But then, of course, like like, eventually that gets flowed back to the models. The models get faster. Mean, we saw the the, what what is it?
Speaker 2:Eight eight times faster is ultra fast.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:How do you think that that will change workflows for enterprises? Like, I mean, I think there's, like, a little bit of a groan at the pricing, but Tyler was just like, time is money. I It is. I wanna hit this all day long. How how do you think people are responding to, like, the speed trade offs?
Speaker 2:Is that, like, a new core skill for people in understanding how to size how to size workloads and actually get
Speaker 1:the Allocate resources.
Speaker 2:Allocate resources, or is this something that it should be abstracted, it is quickly being abstracted?
Speaker 3:I like to say time is money, save both.
Speaker 2:Okay. We Fantastic.
Speaker 4:Off the cuff.
Speaker 2:It's a great line.
Speaker 3:No, I think, you know, ultra fast has been one of those things that for us, like, you just, you can't go back. Right? Yeah. There's, it's you know, it's not exactly the same as intelligence doing something that quickly, but it sure feels like it
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:When you, you know. Especially when
Speaker 6:we
Speaker 3:do these dynamic UI things. Right? Yep. You're you know, you're working on a page with your dot, you tag it in and you say, hey, can you drop interactive chart of our DAO usage
Speaker 2:or the
Speaker 3:DAO growth over time. Right? And it just, it's there.
Speaker 1:Yep. It's like you're doing like a whiteboard session but you can do it with all the date, live data from your business.
Speaker 3:Right. And it goes off, it does the research in your data sources. It writes the little app for you. Yeah. And then you can just say like, hey, share this with my team.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That feels so good with Ultrafast.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What what else is, what else are you working on specifically to onboarding?
Speaker 2:We were just talking about, like, the boom of solopreneurs. Like, who is the who is the core demo that you find adopter? What what what industries are are on the cusp of getting online? We were just talking about the, like, the three d modeling capabilities feels like what we saw in, you know, Vibecoded SaaS products products coming to the core video game world. But what are you seeing on the horizon in terms of companies and developers here today that might, stick out to you as somebody who wasn't here a couple years ago but is now?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's it's hard to say. I I feel like it's just really taken off. I don't know if you've you've seen the chart from OpenAI internally too which
Speaker 1:which
Speaker 3:is just basically, know, engineering was here, research was here and and every other one is like quickly following in in sync.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think there's a just some of the the things that you do together, like pulling data
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, researching things in Slack, planning events together.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:I mean, this entire DevDay is planned using using coding agents.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 3:They don't look like coding agents anymore, but under the hood, they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, I think we're seeing really just a lot of everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How many how many weeks will you be out of a lock in until the next six week lock ins?
Speaker 3:I think
Speaker 2:You're going right back in.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. Can you
Speaker 2:just re pin think tomorrow. Okay. Tomorrow.
Speaker 3:I think tomorrow, I'm gonna do another lock in for six weeks and we'll see what's at the end of that.
Speaker 2:Well, that's fantastic. I
Speaker 1:can't wait.
Speaker 2:Anything else, Jordan?
Speaker 1:No. This is great.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Alright. It must be crazy.
Speaker 2:Is fantastic. Right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it really is. Good luck out there.
Speaker 3:Alright. Thanks guys. We'll talk
Speaker 2:to you soon. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Peter Steinberger returning to TBPN, founder of OpenClaw. Back to the show. It's been too long.
Speaker 2:Last time we we talked
Speaker 1:think really much has happened since then either. Other other Flip it around. There you go.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:We're live.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How's life?
Speaker 6:Have you ever been on a roller coaster that just doesn't stop? Yeah. Like I feel like at some point I see the ups and downs, I'm like, yay. I mean, it's still exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Is the roller coaster more wild online with the chattering class, or internally with what you are working on?
Speaker 6:I think I built up a little bit of a, how do you call it, a shell. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That is good.
Speaker 6:He does always so much shit online and and some of it is amazing, some of it is just like, oh, you just, you know so little.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Totally, totally.
Speaker 6:But I cannot stay away from it. It's too addictive.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's a do it. New skill set. Yeah. Like like having having a
Speaker 6:Surviving online? Yeah. I'm sure I'm sure you don't know nothing about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's the same thing.
Speaker 1:No. But but but it's actually insane how angry people get and how emotional people get about like software and just various like software products. Right?
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you've been on you've been on the receiving end of like again that full roller coaster. Right? Where it's it's pretty surreal. The last time you were on the show was just like you were calling in from, I think, were you still calling in from Europe maybe? Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then I think you almost immediately flew over here and you've probably been here ever since.
Speaker 6:Took a little bit. I had I had some London detours. We have a cool office there from OpenAI. And now, I'm I'm here in this crazy I town.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd like to go back because I think there's so much of your your previous work that leads into the announcements today, the moment in AI broadly, personal agents obviously. But can you just retell us the story of like, what where did the idea for OpenClaw come from? Like, what was the initial spark? Like, you started there?
Speaker 6:My spark is annoyance.
Speaker 2:Annoyance? Yeah.
Speaker 6:Like I like I I do stuff from You talk about emotions. I also have emotions. That doesn't mean my computer doesn't work as fast or as well as I would. I get annoyed. Yeah.
Speaker 6:But now in this day and age, it was like, you don't have can use that annoyance. Yeah. Know, and just like, let's fix it. Yeah. And then the fact that I couldn't really just talk to my computer Yeah.
Speaker 6:It annoyed me. Yeah. I was like, this is so This all feels so crafty, isn't there a better way? And then I just explored those better ways. And I keep exploring those better ways.
Speaker 6:Know, I talked about it inside, my whole thesis is that whatever workflow we think we have right now, it's already outdated. We cannot catch up with the models. Just think about like how much new things you can do because now Luna is like too cheap to meter. Now you have ultra fast, it's like, wait, I don't have to do 50 terminal windows because I can actually stay in focus? Oh, it completely changes things again, know?
Speaker 6:And it's like, we can't keep up building.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What what do you think, as you look back on the the boom of OpenClaw, what do you think the key ingredients were? Was it the connectors? Was it the connections? Was it being to communicate to your computer from anywhere?
Speaker 6:I think I just showed people a different way Yeah. How to use AI. Yeah. And so many were stuck in this world, oh, it can it can summarize my email. No.
Speaker 6:It can like install stuff on your computer or like buy things for you or like do whatever you want that you can do in your computer if you just only give it the right tools. Yeah. And I packaged it in a way that was weird and interesting and and also felt a little bit different, you know? Instead of like giving you a wall of text, felt a little bit more like lobster ish human ish. But like like like it was interesting.
Speaker 6:Yeah. It showed people a new way. Yeah. And it had some unique ideas, like, what about if your AI could actually just be proactive? Yeah.
Speaker 6:You know, yeah, even though like some of it was like token burning. Yeah. But some of it was genuinely cool. It surprised people. Yeah.
Speaker 6:So, I think this day and age, it's it's it's all about ideas and imagination.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Where where do you It was such a
Speaker 1:mean, it was such an amazing moment because it it it felt like the the sort of hacker culture that that that entire town was built on Yeah. Like exploded again in this awesome place.
Speaker 2:People were getting back in the hardware The
Speaker 1:thing is like, you know, you you kicked off an entirely new paradigm. You set like the whole industry on fire in many ways. Everyone everyone started using it, seeing it, and then immediately thinking how do we make this commercially viable to be able to scale from hackers that are buying Mac minis into something that everyday people can use. And I feel like in some ways it's surprising that it given how good the models are that it took another six months to actually get to this moment right now where there's more excitement than ever around personal agents. Like in some ways like you saw this the roller coaster.
Speaker 1:Right? You saw this curve of excitement and then hey, this maybe isn't ready for like a billion people to use and then now we're back to the point of like, okay.
Speaker 6:Isn't that the classical Gartner hype cycle? Yeah. And I honestly, I wish it would have been less hype.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 6:And it was it was it's kinda like this roller coaster where like, yay. And then like it gets even closer like, holy fuck. You know? So so I definitely we had like a massive hype cycle with like inflated things what Open Cloud would do for you to Oh, completely decide of what it could actually do. Yeah.
Speaker 6:And then you had all these insane stories. And then of course people tried it, they're like, no, it doesn't quite work like this. Because we we still There's still limitations. Models were not as good, the software was not as good, of Of Everything's still hard. Everything's still hard and and people were expecting this perfect magical thing that one guy slopped in the basement.
Speaker 6:The
Speaker 2:ultimate slop critique.
Speaker 1:No. It was really a Yeah. Slop for you. Threw it over to San Francisco.
Speaker 2:Well, you were, yeah, you the were one of the first people to come out and just be like, yeah. It's it's so vibe coded. You and you were unabashed about it, and it's like that comes with a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses, but like here is the thing and, you know, it's free. Like, you can go and make you can make your own decisions. You can go rewrite the whole thing yourself one line at a time if you want.
Speaker 6:And people did many many many times.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. How do you think the like OpenAI and ChatGPT is an interesting position because you have ChatGPT threads. You have ChatGPT work in the cloud, Codex Cloud, Codex in your desktop.
Speaker 2:There's, like, a few different ways to interact with this. And I'm wondering if you have a vision for, like, what the next year looks like with, like, how much people are getting into devices, their own hardware versus, versus things like the cloud just eating more and more things. Like, we went through the boom of the open web, then everything went to social networks and and, Instagram profiles. And I'm wondering if you think there's like a pendulum that's swinging or if you have any sort of mental model for where the early adopter or the early consumer will be in a year.
Speaker 6:I mean, the current situation was like chat and work. Yeah. Of course it's a compromise. Yeah. It is and I learned this the hard way.
Speaker 6:It is very hard to like take people from where they are, introduce them into something new.
Speaker 2:Sure. It's
Speaker 6:not annoying these people Yeah. Or like confusing these people. Yeah. So so sometimes you have to make compromises. Is this gonna be the final form?
Speaker 6:Hell no. Like, there is people working on something that's way cleaner.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:What I don't fully know yet is if we will be in the future that is mostly your agent or if it's gonna be whole army. I'm both approaches. I'm more in the first team, but I can also totally see like the second team and then how all these are like how your personal and your team agents interact. There's still a lot of questions that I don't think the industry has fully figured out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I, yeah, always I always comp it back to like how how human organizations have worked. Right? So like you have a big company with thousands of people, you might task one person. Hey, we have this like general goal.
Speaker 1:You figure out how to exactly define it and what it should look like. But then hundreds of people might work on it, but then you don't have hundreds of people report back, all all back
Speaker 6:Kinda replicate those hierarchies and then maybe your agent, oh this is something really complicated, let me spawn an agent that manages this and then it manages its little sub agent. There's so many ideas, There's like I am playing with a lot of them, you know. What really excites me these days is how do we build software in the future and how do we work better with agents? So like, what I just had so much fun with the last few months is moving all of my team to one place. And everybody was freaking out.
Speaker 6:What do you mean? You're like, you're like, we were so embarrassed on like how everyone is talking to their agents.
Speaker 2:It
Speaker 6:felt so private.
Speaker 2:How interesting.
Speaker 6:And they're like, got pushback. And then like, we did it anyhow and then everybody felt embarrassed for a day, and now everybody's learning so much. It's like, because we all have a mental model on how we use agents and it is very different because that was not something we shared. Are you sharing your codec sessions? I'm sure you have some really interesting questions.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And and
Speaker 2:I've I've actually I've actually wanted that back in the deep research era, I would see Tyler Cowen talk about how he was getting a bunch of value for economic research. And I was like, I would love for him just to be able to click on share share the prompt and the result because I might never think to ask that question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we've never really developed a pattern around, oh, yeah. It's totally normal to just go on Twitter and share a link to a chat GPT transcript. Occasionally,
Speaker 1:you No. See I like to responses. They they like to take credit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They like to take credit for it. It's like, It's good content. You did the research, thought of the question.
Speaker 1:Are you going through the first era with OpenClaw and then now this personal agent boom. Where are you actually Where have you seen a bunch of agent, like personal agent activity and you're actually like, I don't think that that will be a paradigm. So for example, like shopping is a good example. Like a lot of shopping with with agents right now is like walking up to the front of a store and asking a person outside of the store like, hey, I I think I wanna get this thing. And then they can you give me some information on it?
Speaker 1:And then you then then maybe they go in and they come back. And it's this sort of like strange dynamic where you maybe at some points it just makes sense to go into the store and see all the information as a
Speaker 2:A what?
Speaker 1:And so there's like every single one of these, you know, big debate around restaurant reservations in the last forty eight hours as well. Right? And so where are these areas where you've seen some activity and you're like, it doesn't even make sense to really focus on that from a product standpoint?
Speaker 6:There's so many companies that wanna own the experience. And I don't wanna talk to your agent.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks its best. Mhmm. But then they they push their own agent and they block my agent and I just go somewhere else. Yeah. I Well, ultimately we don't see how that will play out.
Speaker 6:Yeah. But let me let me use my agent. Yeah. I like my agent. Make your service good so my agent can use it.
Speaker 6:Now, we have like the agent wars, I feel. Yeah. Like, there's big companies that that log their website and
Speaker 1:make it Agent
Speaker 6:Yeah. Fucking agent wars.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And Here's an example. So shopping, going back to shopping, there's all these, let's say, like companies that make sneakers. Right? That are super desirable and there's more demand than supply.
Speaker 1:Well, they've had bots trying
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. For a long time.
Speaker 1:Block other bots forever and now people are just going and they want a generic pair of sneakers and they're getting blocked. Yeah. And and even like an agent that is sufficiently aligned to the user is going to You can just set it, hey, when this thing drops, go and make sure that we're the first person to buy it. And yet that's the that's the thing that like the companies have been trying to block for
Speaker 6:Well, if you cling on to your old ways without resyncing how else we could do it, maybe you have to resync some system. Maybe the who clicks fast enough is no longer the right way. I don't know, bought like the Steam machine and there was just like a window of a week where you could register and then date the lottery, you know? That doesn't matter if my agent clicks in zero point one seconds or as a human clicking in one hour, Everyone gets the same chance. So, there's such a lot of ways where we just need to rethink how we did things in the past because it no longer makes sense.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Instead, you want to block my agent? Oh, then I buy something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah. How do you think about agents going outbound, becoming more proactive? Everything from OpenAI to ChatGPT has been very user prompted. I come to ChatGPT, I ask a question. Otherwise, it doesn't do anything.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. It just sits there.
Speaker 6:Really? But it
Speaker 2:feels like we're about to enter a more proactive I'm already seeing it in Chaji Petit. It'll recommend some prompts. Yeah. And you can imagine the future where I'm more in the response category and Oh, I
Speaker 6:I want an agent that's always thinking. Okay. It should be thinking about this interview right now. Yeah. And and then maybe I have like a hidden screen where
Speaker 3:I can
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6:We will meet proxies.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna meet proxies.
Speaker 6:It is also really hard to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a design problem.
Speaker 6:Right? Yeah. You know, not just it's also a hardware problem. Sure. Like like, give give us more chips.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Incredible amount of inference. You you want Looking at everything on your calendar and saying, you have an interview. So I went and did a deep research. Here's what John likes to talk about.
Speaker 2:Here's what Jordy talks about. And they did all of this and they put it together.
Speaker 1:I want
Speaker 2:Put it in a video and an audio and they gave it to you in every single way. It's a game and
Speaker 6:I want six ultra fast thinking about my day. Yeah. And not just looping. Yeah. You know, like, everyone would do that,
Speaker 2:I would
Speaker 6:just not work today.
Speaker 2:This is the country of geniuses in a Roomba. So to decide where to go next, it is Down the stairs. It's yep. Exactly. It it it's deploying an incredible amount of intel super intelligence to to solve the most mundane things.
Speaker 2:But it does feel like Yeah. That that is maybe the natural flow, which is in the shopping analogy, like like the credit card permeated shopping, and it took a pretty complicated, dance of are you writing a check? Who are you? Write the check. Pay with cash.
Speaker 2:I give you the change, etcetera, to just tap the card. And there's another world where the inventory and sizing is checked behind the scenes all through my agent talking to your agent. And I think any any worldview that assumes that only one side of the interaction will be agent mediated is mistaken. I think that, if it there might be a world where in the future our agents have talked to each other for the equivalent of a million years to prep us, but I don't think there's any world where where my agent is spamming you with tons and tons of emails and you're and you're flooded and you don't have anything you don't have any defenses.
Speaker 1:The agent war. Gonna fight AI with AI.
Speaker 2:Exactly. The agent war will happen below the below the fold and we will both be blissfully ignorant of the of the trench warfare that's going on
Speaker 6:if anything it's it's it's keep being interesting. Yes. Like nothing slowing down.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 6:I I kinda dig that we finally arrived in this world where so many people cannot try agents. Yeah. But also, you know, there's too many people that just, we build all these super intelligent things but we're not really good at explaining people what Yeah.
Speaker 2:Actually do with it. No, totally.
Speaker 6:There's still a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What are you tinkering with these days? I feel like a lot of people are getting the hardware bug, the robotics bug, the video game bug, three d rendering. I went back into Blender for the first time in years. Are there any new like, I I mean, I imagine everything blends together.
Speaker 2:But are there any areas that have interested you because of the model advances? You're like, oh, I wanna go check that out, build a build a robotic arm that paints or or build a video game or something like
Speaker 6:Robotics definitely something I bought some stuff and I'll play more. I'm really still very interested in, as the models get better, how much more can we move up the stack.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 6:So you said before about this agents building hierarchies.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Like, how can I how can I build this? I want I wanna I wanna build an agent that that creates those hierarchies almost on demand.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 6:Like if I tell the agent, hey, rewrite Postgres in Rust. I don't know. Like, okay. Figure out it's like, oh, is Peter okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And and and but maybe also, okay, he's serious? And like, how can we plan this? What structure does it needs to be created on?
Speaker 2:And also over what timeline. Yeah. Because maybe you want you want Postgres rewritten in Rust and Now. Wanna use it. Maybe you want it now.
Speaker 2:Now. But maybe you want Of course, you want it now. But maybe you want it in a couple months. And so it's like, okay. Well, you're gonna throw this on the back burner, cook on it for a while.
Speaker 2:I I mean, I've noticed this where there's certain things where I'm like, oh, this is actually something I'd like to play with tomorrow. I'll set a goal and run it overnight and if it's rendering something, it's sitting there, it's fine. And then other times, it's it's fast mode, let's get it done.
Speaker 6:Like I I was very unapologetic on trusting the models. Yeah. And where people, to the point where people were mocking
Speaker 2:me, oh this will never
Speaker 6:work, it's slop. Yeah yeah. I look what got me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And yes it's slop, also yes we're gonna make it better and the models will keep improving.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And then slowly people are waking up and we moved from this world where of course you look at every line of code like, yeah, we scroll through it. Yeah. So, and it's not stopping. It's not stopping. There's still, and there's so much of how we do all those things around this that need rethinking.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And I I I just find that super interesting.
Speaker 1:How do you think about your personal workflow? Sam earlier was saying historically you would wanna think of 30 ideas and maybe whittle it down to one and just work on that for a few months. It feels like the success of Open Claw came because you shipped 30 things in
Speaker 2:I used days. Them
Speaker 1:But but are you still trying to do that internally where you're just building, again, silly silly little kind of projects just to see what's possible to to almost generate more robust ideas that you can then invest more time in.
Speaker 6:These days I kind of get annoyed if I can change software as a prompt. I got so used to like having all the tools myself that now I'm kind of annoyed at the operating system. You know, because it's I feel like it's last frontier. That's why like I started shifting more towards, hey Linux is now actually cool. Yes.
Speaker 6:Because yeah, there's like a lot of problems, but I like problems. Yeah. And and
Speaker 2:And it's all text based problems.
Speaker 6:And my age just goes down and reads the kernel and compiles the kernel. Yep. And then now my webcam works.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know, and then that gets me excited. Yeah. Like, oh wow, I can now literally own the stack and Yeah. There's nothing we cannot fix anymore. Like, everything's fixable.
Speaker 6:Nothing is Everything is still hard, but nothing's impossible. Yeah. Like, yeah I could run my own OS. Well maybe it's still hard but like, let's see. There's enough tokens and like advances that ridiculous thing will not be that ridiculous anymore in the future.
Speaker 1:Well yeah, it's interesting too because the agent actually becomes the operating system in many ways. Like, I I I grew up using Mac computers and never never had like a like a a Windows PC at home ever in my whole life.
Speaker 6:Wow. Blessed. Very blessed.
Speaker 1:Very blessed. BC. But Brutal. I a I a like a sim racing rig. Oh, really?
Speaker 1:And so I have a PC for the first time. I'm like, I don't know how to do anything on this thing. But you just set up codecs
Speaker 2:Just talk
Speaker 1:to you it. Just talk to
Speaker 2:it and
Speaker 1:you tell it what you want to do.
Speaker 2:And it's the Wi Fi.
Speaker 6:I built I built a little ESP device and it has display issues. Okay. So I glued my webcam to the display and the codecs rip overnight, and fixed the display driver.
Speaker 2:That's so crazy.
Speaker 6:You know, all you do is think about ways how your agent can do the best work.
Speaker 2:That's so fascinating.
Speaker 6:Close the loop. Yeah. And then the problem was I also told it to fix audio and then I was waking up, hello
Speaker 2:ESP. Testing it.
Speaker 6:Hello, ESP. The whole night. Because it took so long for it to figure out that the volume was down on the other thing. Well, eventually it learned.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. That's so funny. Yeah. That was amazing. Are are you, you said you you you put the team together, but that was digitally.
Speaker 2:Correct? You said you put all the the whole team is now sharing what they're what they're prompting their agents. But physically, what how what's your day to day look like? How much time are you in San Francisco?
Speaker 6:Oh, I'm here.
Speaker 1:I'm here.
Speaker 6:Here, okay. And I, yeah, maybe basically, have two teams. Yeah. I do a lot of work on the foundation side. Sure.
Speaker 6:We push that forward and then there's a lot of a lot of things inside OpenAI where we tried new ideas. Yeah. It's a lot of, hey, we tried this, how can we make this into something that's a one p product? Yeah. You know, so there's some there's some cross pollination.
Speaker 6:I take some ideas back as well because I wanna apply I like to play with them. Yeah. So if you disagree on ideas, not everything works in in that scale to that scale. Know, it's a very different way how you need to build things. Yeah.
Speaker 6:But it's kind of cool. So, yeah. I have a lot of jobs. Love it.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much Amazing catch you. For coming on the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you. What a what a year.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Great to see you.
Speaker 6:See you next year, hopefully.
Speaker 2:Hopefully sooner We'd than love to chat with you again. Up next, we have TBPN, the CEO of the Reset Company of California.
Speaker 1:Cisco.
Speaker 2:Yes. The the master of resets coming on the show. TBPN, here we Taking a photo. Can we pan over to them?
Speaker 1:I don't
Speaker 2:think TBPN, thank you so much for coming on the show. How are doing? Man
Speaker 1:of the hour. What's happening?
Speaker 2:We're gonna have you throw that headset on. The microphone goes on the left. I think you got it right. There we go.
Speaker 1:Wish you brought the button.
Speaker 2:Oh, he already pushed it today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's been used. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Was a
Speaker 1:one time Single use. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. But the physical button is a great manifestation of of all the hard work. How is DevDay going? What what are your reactions?
Speaker 8:The vibes are awesome in person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Yeah. I feel it. Everyone I talked to here seems super excited. Maybe not about the things that I thought they would be most excited Mostly ecosystem and, you know, us opening up like sign in with ChatGPT.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That we can talk I that's
Speaker 1:up. I, you know, we we we had it on a on a screen and I stood up and just like
Speaker 2:You actually did.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, I'm watching my team play, you know. But but to me that was a standout thing Even even having Peter on just now, like Peter didn't have the ability to offer massive amounts of compute to the world. And so he made a bunch of product decisions because of that. Right? The the the you know Yeah.
Speaker 1:Local local approach, things And like now if you're a developer and you have product experiences that you want to deliver to customers,
Speaker 2:you can
Speaker 1:do that in a way that will be much much more cost efficient.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So maybe reset on that experience. Explain what actually was announced today and then we'll go into the discussion.
Speaker 8:Sure. But just Yeah. Briefly on that Peter part, think like the great thing is you can now focus on like building great products. Yeah. You know, instead of like focusing like on how do I make the token economics make sense?
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 8:Yeah. A lot of things were announced. Maybe even like too many things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No. That was was that my I mean, I I've I always I always I always default when I'm talking to you know, 70 some you know, portfolio companies. When they're like, we're gonna launch this fundraise and this thing all in the same day. I'm like, just break it up, launch it, spread it out over over two weeks. But in some ways seeing this live I was like, okay, it actually makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's fun to have this moment where all these things and it creates this like pressure around
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The team to deliver. Yeah.
Speaker 8:So the the thing I'm most excited about because it has changed the way I work so much and I can't wait to see what people do with it is like obviously dots. Yeah. Where I think this is just a new way of packaging a lot of the things that we were seeing working before like very long running, agentic task. The configuration that we have like, the agent never stops. Occasionally it sleeps
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:But it's always online, always doing proactive research, thinking about your goals, thinking about your preferences and then you just steer it live, just you know, you would give feedback to anyone else, you just give your daughter a little bit of feedback, it learns. And so the more you interact with it and the more you teach it about your preferences, the better a job it does and at some point, a couple days in, you're like, wow. Know, just like, I can't really quite imagine doing work without this thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 8:So it becomes like super delightful.
Speaker 2:But it's
Speaker 8:something that you need to invest a little bit of time in.
Speaker 2:Do you think developers are already do you think developers are more in a mindset to adopt DOTS or more excited about, sort of diffusing AI throughout their organizations to parts of the organization that may have not be like, not they haven't onboarded workflows onto Codecs necessarily because it's been like intimidating. Is that part of the next leg up here?
Speaker 8:Yeah. I think democratizing and Yeah. They're figuring out like what is the natural way to interact with these things. You know, if you're like, oh yeah, like fire up Codex in the terminal. It's like Yeah.
Speaker 8:You know, it's capable of editing documents. Yeah. It's capable of creating the slides and
Speaker 2:marketers and finance people that were doing that, but there is value to things up nicely. Right?
Speaker 8:Yeah. And then also making sure that it's it's safe and it's secure, like, right out of out of the box. Yeah. That, you know, configuration is, like, really minimal. Yeah.
Speaker 8:It does something useful, you know, within the first five minutes. Yeah. And you don't have to be super technical, but just kind of still feel like the power of it. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 8:Know, it's like And that that's that's what we're doing with DOTS. And then in the future, know, we'll we'll ship a lot of this, the same technology and the capabilities like, you know, Ride and Challenge BT as well Yeah. For, you know, our 1,200,000,000 users. Of course. Really it's about, it's like getting to the essence of, you know, how how much can you simplify, really?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Talk about the current state of the difference between the model and the harness. It feels like this year, we went through the whole narrative, like, the harness really matters, and I'm interested in, the lessons from both the harness matters and specifically Codex as a harness in dots. How much translated? How much similar lineage is there?
Speaker 2:Or is it possible we're even in a different regime and I'm using the wrong metaphor?
Speaker 8:Like the it's it's like this interesting tension between the model and the harness Yeah. And you know, you always build the harness a little bit ahead of the capabilities of of the model in order to be like, kinda make up for it. And then the next generation of models kinda catches up to down and you have to delete parts of your harness Sure. Because it's actually holding it back. Yep.
Speaker 8:And so this like it's very playful and dynamic. It's a dance. Yeah. It's a dance. Right?
Speaker 8:It's this beautiful dance of the model, the harness. The the codex harness is used to power dots. Mhmm. So like the same open source harness that we have and then we also use it to power the agents API
Speaker 2:Got that
Speaker 8:we have which is like you know managed agents. And a lot of effort is going into this harness to just make it very efficient, safe, secure. And so I would say like right now that's most of the benefits that you get from this harness. Like it's really a hardened thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And then on the complexity complexity of of the the tools, it's like, you know, we're like just really just really minimizing that because the current generation of models is just like so so good.
Speaker 2:And is that how I should think about the specialist dots as as sort of fine tuned harnesses for certain workflows. What what is the mental model to sort of deploy those specialist dots across an organization? Yes.
Speaker 8:We have a lot of specialist dots at Yeah. OpenAI. And the difference is that you use the existing systems within your company in order to provision
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 8:The identity and then the access
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 8:And the machine.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 8:So we have them running on Mac minis. Okay. So we provision them like exactly like employees, we mill we've meant like a new little identity Yeah. And then you know, it's like it's got this IAM and the roles and so we we have like you know very good security story there. And then we give them like a very premium machine as well because the model is incredibly capable under the hood, you know dots are like beyond PhD level, right?
Speaker 8:And you know if you look at Astra it's just like incredibly capable at like computer use.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 8:So your dot can just like use a computer just like you would. And so by giving them like premium hardware as well, it's like you know it just even increases their capabilities further. And so we have these set up and inside of OpenAI they do all sorts of things including procurement for example.
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. On computer use, can you help me understand the levers that are being pulled to speed up computer use? I noticed a jump between, five five and Astra, but I wasn't exactly sure whether the speed up was coming from, like, a fast mode or or the actual model or the harness. Like, what are the levers?
Speaker 2:Like, what scaling law are we following to when I I mean, I was demoing it with a video game, like Slay of Spire, just because it's visual and I can watch it work and I know how fast I can click. And I'm interested to know, like, when act we keep joking about it like playing Call of Duty. And we're like, well, it's clearly not there yet, but are we is it is it a 10 x speed increase every year? Like, how do you even like, what are the levels?
Speaker 1:Create an aim bot for every single video game ever created.
Speaker 2:Maybe. But but how much of that is happening in the harness and the model both? Like how do you even how do you even think about understanding the progress in computer use speed?
Speaker 8:I I do think we have seen a 10 x Yeah. For one year Yeah. Speed up. And it's not that we made the model sample faster.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 8:Like obviously fast and ultra fast plays a role if you want to go even faster but that is not what we improved in terms of computer use. It's both the harness and the model. So Yeah. When you think about the model it's like how much does it need to think
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Before it can take the next action reliably. Yeah. That's one element that we really improved. The other one is that we take safety super seriously so we don't just click around and let the primary agent do things. We have a second agent which we call auto review or Oh, currently we call it Guardian Yeah.
Speaker 8:Which watches over this primary agent is like actually, oh, wait a second, you're entering you know, this sensitive information on this website Yeah. This domain not quite right, know you should stop that action and so it intervenes there. So we also made this auto review model faster. Yeah. And then the harness, because we had Astra, Tejal talked about this, like we were able to kind of use Astra at scale in order to improve the performance of the harness.
Speaker 8:Sure. Do more things in parallel, you know, remove little stalls, and then just really innovate there as well. It's like it's all open source so you know, you can go and dig and figure out you know exactly which techniques we used. And then combined all of this together, you know, then we got this 10 x speed up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Year is the ten year anniversary of the first OpenAI DOTA competition. I think it was one on one, and then they did the DOTA five a couple years later. And I and my my big question and prediction is like, will a stock OpenAI model with computer use be able to beat that original model?
Speaker 2:Of course. And and it's gonna be it's gonna be close because it's gotta be actions per minute. It's not just the reasoning. I think I think if you were able to pause the game and cook on, you know, a really a really advanced model, you'd be able to get there. But the computer use is like the final thing and I I think that's gonna be pretty magical.
Speaker 8:Yeah. If you if you look at Ultrafast
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Today on Astra Okay. It's 300 tokens per second.
Speaker 2:Okay. So
Speaker 8:And Maybe I
Speaker 2:gotta go demo it today. Not quite
Speaker 8:that, you know, one token is one action. Yeah. Right? It's more going to be like, you need 20 tokens to take one action, right? So, You know, you're going to have 30 actions per second, which is a decent And then it's all like how smart is the model?
Speaker 8:Like you know, can it actually reason about long term strategy and movements and all the past actions? And what we're seeing is that currently we we we announced as well decisions API. Yeah. We further tuned the constraints so that you can make decisions extremely fast. So you can make one decision roughly every two hundred milliseconds.
Speaker 8:Yeah. So speed is just like, we're just progressing way faster than even I had anticipated six six months ago. Yeah. And I think we'll see like, you know, definitely like real time real time actions within next year and like beating that original model.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I So so so, yeah. I mean, I I I love those announcements. They're always really interesting. So many different models and and speeds and cost trade offs and Pareto charts and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 2:At the same time, how much do you want users to actually understand that, internalize that, become experts there versus just wait a little bit and it'll be entirely delegated to the harness or to the company even or the product? I'm just wondering how long we stay in this regime of understanding the model picker. Mhmm. Because there's some real value that comes from being able to, you know, think, okay. We need this we need this chart, but we need it right now.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna, you know but that could just be in the prompt. Like, you go to your dot and say, hey, I need I need a best estimate of revenue for my business right now. Or, hey, look, we I need you to go reconcile the books, so get it to me by Monday.
Speaker 8:Yes. And the way that you think about it feels exactly right. Okay. Humans don't have a knob. Right?
Speaker 8:So you just you just tell it in natural language.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:You're like, I need this right now or I need this tomorrow or you have a $100 in order to achieve this.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 8:Yeah. I'm throwing a big party, I want to spend
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:$50. It's like good luck. Yeah. The model should just adapt and like the system should adapt and you know configure exactly like how many resources it should it should use in order to achieve your goal. And that's what we're working towards.
Speaker 8:With dots in a way we already simplify things massively, there's no model picker. Mhmm. Like your dot is just there. Available 247. Can text it.
Speaker 8:It model ulates its effort depending on the ask. And it might not be perfect, this is also why we're announcing it at DevDay, we wanna build it with the community and like we're learning with the pro users. But eventually it will be so good that you will kind of be shocked that we had a model picker Yeah. Ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Are you spending, how are you allocating your time? Because I imagine you're sleeping like four hours a night but the other twenty hours
Speaker 8:just in a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the other yeah, whatever the other twenty hours a day. How much time are you spending on recruiting and who are you actually looking for there? The team is firing on all cylinders, you wanna make sure when you're adding people they're speeding up the team versus slowing you down. But recruiting versus everything else on your plate.
Speaker 8:Yeah, spend a decent amount of recruiting but I try to do more than one thing at once, right? So for example, I might talk to an exciting candidate and have a really fun conversation about an idea that I think you know either the team is already pursuing or you know something new and speculative that we're thinking about and it's like I'm kinda trying to see like you know what this other person is also, know how they would kinda handle it you know if they were on the team. And so it's not that I'm you know actually kind of wasting my time in an interview and doing anything boring there, I'm like actively thinking about the work and already simulating them being part of the team Yeah. Which then also is interesting to myself like you know as it sort of evolves my thinking. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Sometimes in you know quite novel ways. So I would say, like, interacting with other people and, you know, I'm always looking for great new candidates to join the team. I would say it's, you know, 20% of my time.
Speaker 2:How do you think about the the longer term ramifications of of of memory memory and going deeper with a particular agent and system. Because there there's this interesting thing where, right now, OpenAI has business relationships, and there are some companies that have gone all in. And and at the same time, are individuals who have gone all in on codecs and have complex workflows, and there's more memory there. But there is a world that I could imagine where if somebody up on my team and and and they're doing their work and I notice that they're searching the Internet using Bing, I'm probably not gonna say, hey. Look.
Speaker 2:This is a Google organization. But I would say, okay. We use Gmail, not Outlook. You're on this particular email system. And there's some sort of interaction there there that feels like, are we going to are we gonna be more in the regime of you have your agent, you're tooling, and you and I'm hiring you to work with me, and you bring all of what whatever tools you use?
Speaker 2:Or is there going to be a regime where, hey, you're joining a particular shop, like a rail shop, you're writing rails, you're writing Ruby, or this is a Python shop, I need to get up to speed on that. Have you thought about where this goes in the longer term?
Speaker 8:Yeah. It it also, again, it feels like the way that you're thinking about it feels very natural. So just like humans, know, you don't want to just like re explain the same thing over and over again. If you're a real shop, like you know, you hired a person and you're like, hey, usually you know, you understand we're real shop, here's the documentation.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 8:Learn you know how we do things over here and then you know, try your best to do it. Yeah. If you don't get it quite right, I'll provide you feedback. Yeah. And so this is very much the same that we're thinking about it for DOTS and agents in general.
Speaker 8:Space is you know like a shared memory system
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:That you maintain across the organization. Yeah. You know you have your own notes but you know you also have like collective notes and so Yeah. For example you could just write in there like, hey you know we're a real shop. Like here are the things that you need to know about and then you know the first thing that it does is just like just goes in and reads And about then memory system is something that we have quite perfected and are continuing to innovate on.
Speaker 8:Like with the ability to stay you know, have coherent memory over very very long periods of time. So you don't want to give feedback
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 8:Today and then learn that, you know, two weeks later it's just like, you know, kinda like completely forgotten about it. It's just like, you know, painting the house blue again. I really don't like that color.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fascinating interaction of all these things. But thank you so much for coming, breaking
Speaker 1:it down. Yeah. Wish we had more time. I I think that the the intensity around your X account is something that, like, I I think very very very few people at companies at any point in modern history have had to deal with. Like I I actually But as I've As we've gone through this year just like seeing how much just how much attention is focused on the next thing that you post and then what you have to go through to actually balance all of that feedback in real time and understand where am I right?
Speaker 1:Where were we off? And then adapt. It's it's been incredible to watch. Yeah. Good luck out there.
Speaker 1:Congratulations. To help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's good. We'll see. Maybe the dot's been running the account and
Speaker 2:then Yeah. That's the that's the big reveal. You so much for coming on the show. Up next, we have Kath Korevec coming on to the show. Kath, welcome to TBPN.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a little windy.
Speaker 1:Little windy.
Speaker 2:Do whatever you need to to
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:Get adjusted, take a seat.
Speaker 1:Great to have you.
Speaker 2:Great to have you.
Speaker 9:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Big day. Yes. I didn't expect a hug from from the man.
Speaker 2:Oh,
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's
Speaker 2:great. For those who don't know you, please introduce yourself. Tell us a little about your role at OpenAI.
Speaker 9:Yeah. I'm Kath. Yep. I'm a product manager. Here.
Speaker 9:I work on GPT Sites, Chad GPT Sites.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. What has the traction been with Sites?
Speaker 9:Oh, it's been huge. Yeah. So let's see. I don't know what I'm approved to say, but I think I can say
Speaker 2:I think I have doc here. I want the number.
Speaker 1:Whatever went out.
Speaker 2:10,000,000 sites.
Speaker 9:10,000,000. Okay. Great. In under
Speaker 2:three months since launch.
Speaker 9:Yeah. So we launched three months ago.
Speaker 2:I'm responsible for like 45 those. I I I make them for everything. I love them. Oh, Like my favorite product. I I love Sites.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. Cool. The the wildest use case is like looking at John was like looking at a bunch of different products online and just instantly building this wild know, this was this was like a couple months ago Yeah.
Speaker 2:When it was in beta. Specifically, I would take I I was looking for a house. I would take a Zillow listing, send the link to Codex, and say, go and download all the photos, restyle them with images, and then put it together in a site where you can swipe left to right to see Yeah. If this house went through a remodel, would it look better?
Speaker 1:And then styling it in in Yeah. Way that and and Yeah. Yeah. Based on your preference.
Speaker 2:Okay. This house is this this style of architecture from this year, this would be a faithful, you know, evolution of this. It wouldn't just, you know, change the architectural style. And then I'd made so many sites that I told it to make a meta site to like put all them together
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 9:Create like an atlas of all things.
Speaker 2:Great. Okay. Tell me.
Speaker 9:To do this.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 9:And and I I I mean, I have a couple but I'll send it to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Yeah. And like Right. How to organize it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. It's amazing.
Speaker 9:Because that's like that's when you know you've like hit the limit.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's when you actually
Speaker 9:have to organize this. So did you tell did you tell it or of what your preference is
Speaker 2:or did
Speaker 9:you give it like Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I specifically John has like very specific taste. Any if he was gonna go through a remodel, he wants it to look at specific ways. Yeah. The image model takes that into account and nails it within the context of that Yeah. Space.
Speaker 2:But it was so helpful because a lot of times you'll see a house that went through a remodel and it prices higher, and then a house that's pre remodel, it's lower priced, and you're like, okay, well, if you equalize these and Zillow has feature for this that lets you sort of like redecorate a little bit on some houses that list, but not all of them. And so this was a nice way to just
Speaker 9:Okay.
Speaker 2:Style. And then I could just pass it around to like family members and show them it was a
Speaker 9:good experience. So did it show you this is more real estate question
Speaker 1:than Okay. It
Speaker 2:Let's go real estate. We got a got a whole mansion section. We could talk cars if you want. We could do whatever you want.
Speaker 1:This is
Speaker 2:the show. We don't only talk about AI.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 9:But I'm I'm curious if it could do something, and maybe you weren't, like, asking it to do this. Yeah. But you know, like, when you go through a remodel Yeah. Your home value either, like, goes up or goes down based on what
Speaker 2:you're
Speaker 9:doing.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 9:if you're like, I'm gonna add a white kitchen
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 9:Something. Or if you add a
Speaker 2:pool Yes.
Speaker 9:Your home value goes down Yes. When you think, like, oh, pool is, like, fancy.
Speaker 2:So it did all of that. It looked at it looked at price per square footage for remodel homes in the particular neighborhood, block by block, finding comps, building all the comp sheets, and then figuring out, okay, what is the realistic building cost for specific things, creating itemized list of how much you'd spend on architect versus Amazing. Raw materials. And then would you have the the the correct gap to support that based on, like a ten year holding period basically. So it did all of that.
Speaker 1:Truly, truly personal super intelligence because five years ago, you the the amount of experts and like, okay, I don't have time to build a website, so I need someone else to like build this thing and I
Speaker 2:need Yeah.
Speaker 1:I need to be able to like compare contract Yeah. It would be an ad.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And my and my end conclusion was just like, it's just going to speed up the economy because more people will be doing like the remodels, more people will be buying stuff because they'll have more confidence in these things. It was Yeah. It was a it was a delightful experience.
Speaker 9:This is why we built sites.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 9:Okay. So it we built it for Yeah. Work Yeah. Related stuff Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 9:But also people use it for personal
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 9:Personal use cases. Yep. Do. I just built
Speaker 1:a site. I don't I don't wanna have to go I
Speaker 9:I like tinkering with hardware. Hardware.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 9:I wanna have like Do you guys know the Skylight? It's like a family
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Oh, organizer. Yeah. Calendar. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't wanna go
Speaker 9:and and buy it. I'm sure it's like a fantastic product.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 9:Yeah. But I don't wanna buy it. I wanna build myself.
Speaker 1:Okay. You mean you mean the picture frames that cycle through images?
Speaker 9:It's specific to calendar. Google Calendar. Yeah. But they have their own software and everything that's like specific for families.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 9:So I don't wanna do that. So I'm building one with with Cheshire Beauty Sites.
Speaker 2:Oh, and Sites is the background Yeah.
Speaker 9:Basically. We just launched plugins in Sites today, and so I can like hook it up to my calendar Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I can have And then with a prompt, you can iterate on it. Yeah. Say, okay, I wanna change this. Exactly. Color.
Speaker 2:We're going with this theme. It's Christmas. Make it Christmas theme.
Speaker 9:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 4:Like that.
Speaker 9:And I can like hook it up to my kids calendar.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:School Yeah.
Speaker 9:Do all that stuff.
Speaker 2:I think it's really good for yeah. On the fly UI, I was discussing potential guests for throughout the rest of the year. Had, basically deep research pull a bunch of potential people that are, you know, one step away from guests we've had on the show. But instead of just giving me a big long list, I was like, just build me a website where I can thumbs up, thumbs down Yeah. Share with the team.
Speaker 2:Very easy. How does that interface with space? How how do you see these products linked? Is there gonna be another merge? Everything's merging all the time?
Speaker 9:Oh, there's always a merge.
Speaker 2:There's always a merge.
Speaker 9:And an unmerge.
Speaker 2:And then toggles everywhere. Yep. This is the the life.
Speaker 9:The sites are in space. Okay. And that's very intentional. Sites are very they're a very collaborative place. Yep.
Speaker 9:And you can add editors to your site. You can add co editors Sure. Co authors, etcetera. And it's a very rich environment to to work in. You can like build a site.
Speaker 9:You can share it with somebody else. We have a lot of people at OpenAI who are doing like we have our IT team is using this to manage like where everybody is in the world. Yeah. And they're sharing those sites with other people like around the world who are like boots on the ground managing security. And so they wanna see like they wanna see like, okay, who's flying in today?
Speaker 9:Happening? Is there, like, how was the weather? Is there a weather event happening? Like, all of that stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 9:And so, they'll add co editors, co authors, everything to their site to manage it. Inside spaces, what's cool is that you can you have all of your artifacts right there. Available for everybody. So you'll see us kind of like cross referencing stuff, making stuff inside space more and more interchangeable. And so you'll be able to like inside pages, be able to reference sites and vice versa.
Speaker 9:And slides are launching soon. A lot of people are are making slides with with sites. Yep. You'll be able to put those into spaces really easily. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's What what's the timeline for this to be available to anyone? Like, is there is if you go far enough in the future, can somebody on a free chat GPT plan create a website?
Speaker 9:Oh, yes. Yeah. So we are very very interested in making it available to everybody. We have to figure out like infrastructure
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 9:How to how to price it appropriately, etcetera. Like, we just launched three months ago, so we're still kind of learning. But we are also working with the consumer supported.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Ad supported. Oh, there you go.
Speaker 2:Your site will have ads all over it. Banner ads for everything you do, that's still free.
Speaker 9:You know, I'm big
Speaker 2:I want
Speaker 9:that. Use case isecom.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 9:Just so we could do,
Speaker 1:you know Sure. Sure. Sure.
Speaker 9:There's a lot Yeah. Here that we could we could
Speaker 2:I wanna go back to the Angel Fire world. I don't know if you remember that but like Yeah. The year it was free web hosting and you'd have these these banner
Speaker 1:Crazy ads display ads.
Speaker 2:Crazy display ads all over that you couldn't remove. Hoping we
Speaker 9:can get away from the ad.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll have to disagree on that. We're huge fans of advertising and so we'll
Speaker 1:advertising it in like a unique way. Yeah. People are like, oh, this this meeting could have been an email and I'm gonna be like, well, text to me, John, could have been a website. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're We're basically there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 9:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah. You guys were watching the progress. 10,000,000.
Speaker 1:10,000,000. 10,000,000,000 soon.
Speaker 2:10,000,000,000.
Speaker 1:10 There's gonna be more websites Yeah. Per person.
Speaker 2:So we'll take that headset off. We'll hand it to our next guest. Ben, thank you for And hopping I believe we're ready for our next guest. We have none other than Casey Neistat. Casey, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Good to see you. How you doing?
Speaker 7:Has that been on the table?
Speaker 2:This has been on
Speaker 1:the Yeah. Know. It's been trying to take it out. Yes. But it survives.
Speaker 2:Why don't you introduce this? What is this thing? Oh, you have one.
Speaker 7:Funny you should ask.
Speaker 2:Funny you should ask.
Speaker 7:No. So this is the this is the first chromatic
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 7:Transparent. Custom chromatic that we made at
Speaker 2:I love this styling. Yeah.
Speaker 7:For this event today. Okay. Yeah. We made, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say the number, we made 8,000 of them. Wow.
Speaker 7:Oh. To make sure every attendee could leave with them.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.
Speaker 7:Leave with one. Yeah. I will say that breaking news.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 7:This was announced on stage by Sam like an hour and a half ago. Yes. There's one currently on eBay for 4,000.
Speaker 2:I was gonna ask you. They gotta trade in the in the in the aftermarket. Aftermarket.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Fantastic. Arbitrage. A lot of people are like, I'm gonna wait to get home to to flip this.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Not no. Not some enterprising attendee today Yeah.
Speaker 1:Who saw an opportunity and just got in there and Boom.
Speaker 7:Used it. Boom.
Speaker 2:But the specific integration, of course, codex, vibe coding, the idea that you can create a custom game that runs on here. Is that the idea?
Speaker 7:Yeah. You know, like, we do at Mod Retro, the reason why we're, like, focused on retro gaming is Yeah. It's it's about, like, the love and the fun of the the game Yeah. Playing.
Speaker 2:Mine came with Tetris. It was fantastic.
Speaker 7:Right? I rarely take Tetris out of mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's my
Speaker 7:it's my anti Tetris cartridge
Speaker 1:stays in.
Speaker 7:It's it's catharsis for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I did buy a crazy cartridge that had like some modern technology, like 400 games on there and that was really cool, but you know, they
Speaker 7:That sounds super unofficial.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was.
Speaker 7:But Naughty. What is and what it is today is Naughty naughty.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I get in trouble for buying it. I think the person should've We sold it
Speaker 7:built a custom plugin
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 7:For codecs.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:And it enables you to sort of vibe code games. Yes. What's special about it Yeah. Is that you're not you're not constricted to play that on your laptop. You can like, you can flash it to this cartridge immediately.
Speaker 2:Yep. It's
Speaker 7:amazing. And I think like the best way of framing it is like Torin, our CEO
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 7:And his five year old
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Vibe coded a game and then he was able to flash it and hand the chromatic kiddo. Yeah. And have him playing it
Speaker 2:right away. Yeah. And it's something that, like, leans into the constraints. Like, you see I've seen a bunch of demos that are, like, oh, this new model's so powerful. I just gave it one prompt, and it made a triple a Call of Duty GTA six video game.
Speaker 2:And I'm, okay. Let's let's calm down. You made a thirty second video of something that actually looks kinda janky and probably doesn't
Speaker 1:have anywhere near the prep of the two sides.
Speaker 2:Just yep. We'll get there, but for now, this is the sweet spot. Like, I know that you can actually deliver something that's fun and entertaining and full featured and not buggy when you're constrained to this screen and just these buttons and you're
Speaker 1:not Also also the exciting thing is having having a of one. Right? Like there's so many there's so many great idea. Yeah. And when and when I say that, I'm not saying
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:The product, but I'm saying like The use there are great games where for a five year old
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, he they will be the person that that appreciates this game.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right? It's combining different parts of their interests into something that would never have commercial appeal, could never get shipped or made. Totally. Now it can. And I think that's been sort of the story of every single category of AI use case where you can now make things that, like again, example you were giving ten Percent minutes months.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like you would never spend the money or the time to make this comparison website only for yourself on the fly. Yes. And now you can't.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 7:And I think it Constraints is a great characterization because I think it it it dovetails with like what our mission is at Mod Retro, is like embracing those constraints
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Which which amplifies like the why part. You know, like we launched the m 64, which is our Nintendo 64 console. We released that a month and a half ago And doing incredibly well. But so much of the feedback we see is from like old people like me. Yeah.
Speaker 7:45, I was 15.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:When Nintendo 64 came out, introducing it to their kids.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Of course. You get a dad or you get a mom with their little ones. It forces you, because of those constraints, to physically sit with my kids Yeah. And play Mario Kart. Yeah.
Speaker 7:And when I think of that versus, like, when we catch our daughter, she's not allowed to play Roblox. But we catch her in her bedroom, like, hiding in the closet by herself with her iPad six inches from her place playing Roblox.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:This just feels so antithetical to that. Totally. Because it is about like the social aspect. It's about the camaraderie. It's about the fun.
Speaker 7:Yeah. And I think like that's that's what today in this partnership was emblematic of. It's like, you can create something that's fun, like say, check this out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's so funny that like, I I think a lot of we're we're all parents here and I think all a lot of parents are going through this like, I just want the same experience that I had for my kids. And then there's literally a
Speaker 1:company that's like, yeah, you can do that. Yeah. Such a simple value prop.
Speaker 7:It's it's it's a funny it's a funny ex like philosophical there's a part of it which is like, is it just our old man nostalgia? Yeah. And you know, Palmer, our founder, has like a really curt response to that which is no. Yeah. It was just better.
Speaker 7:Yeah. It was better than And I think about that because like, you know, we bought our daughter this summer a point and shoot camera. Sure. And it was like the biggest fucking deal for
Speaker 2:her. Yeah.
Speaker 7:And like she has a camera on her iPad but having a point and shoot camera, this single purpose device Yep. It meant so much to her. Yeah. And I think that we're starting to see like technology start to go for full circle. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Like we have these stupid little black rectangles of doom that live in our pockets that you can do everything on. Yeah. But there's something about whether it's like a wired headphone Yeah. Point and shoot camera, a device that you have to physically put a cartridge in to play a game. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Think it's about the relationship between the the person and the technology and I feel like we've gotten so far away from that with with the the rate of innovation getting away from us. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to go so deep. No.
Speaker 7:No. No. Think a lot of
Speaker 1:No. Mean, I've I've I've spent A completely I mean, I every I'll text John like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Twice a month, maybe every week, where I'm like, everything that's good hasn't changed in sixty years. Right? And and and many ways like having like machine intelligence is the only thing really that that I feel like has been super meaningful that's that's changed in that period. But when it comes to stuff specifically in the physical world, everything that's good has existed for Like
Speaker 2:old restaurants, old hotels.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Cars. Cars. Cars got worse. You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. A bunch of things. You know, homes got worse. All all these different things.
Speaker 2:Toilet paper rolls or or paper towel holders. Is that is that your always example?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. That's probably He wants
Speaker 2:a paper towel holder invented in the nineteen sixties.
Speaker 7:Yeah. I've got one that has a WiFi connection.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. You're on the opposite.
Speaker 7:It sends me alerts when I get low on toilet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. But but the the cool thing is it feels like I I really do think that that all I do think all the hardware that we use is gonna like change dramatically in in a in a way over the next ten years that it didn't in the last Mhmm. In the in the last ten years. And part of why I think that is is because you have thousands of super smart people working on these new paradigms and form factors, but then you also have the software changing.
Speaker 1:And the first time we had Peter from OpenAI on and he was just saying like he's now getting frustrated with the OS. Mhmm. It's not just the things that are happening as part of the or on top of the operating system. He's like he wants to go all the way because there's things that can just make more sense when you can generate an operating system almost on the fly?
Speaker 7:Yeah. I I I think it's holistic. I think there's room for everything. But I I think what's been caught up in this like tidal wave of innovation that I felt has has sort of hit like a a a really aggressive inflection point in the last ten to fifteen years is that it sort of consumed everything. And I feel like we've kind of reached this plateau where we're able to pause and identify little areas where like, no no no, that doesn't need that kind of innovation.
Speaker 7:I think back to like, if I'm if I'm if you'll allow me to be romantic about it. Please. Like, I got I think for my tenth birthday, I got one of those yellow Sony Walkmans. That's right. And I fucking treasured this thing.
Speaker 7:Yeah. It meant the world to me. It was my most prized possession. I I took showers as a kid, I would take a bath just so I could listen to music Yeah. In the bathtub because I had a walk in and they could get wet.
Speaker 7:And I think about that now and it's like technically
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Spotify is better Yeah. Than having Led Zeppelin cassette
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:And my yellow It's better in every way technically. Yeah. Yeah. But it like Spotify will never mean to me Yeah. What that device meant to
Speaker 6:me. Totally.
Speaker 7:And I think this romanticization of of technology is something we've we've drifted away from.
Speaker 2:And the change in medium chain changed the message. Used to listen to a whole album and
Speaker 1:now Yeah. For me it was the iPod shuffle. Oh. Like having
Speaker 7:Which one? The little white one?
Speaker 1:The clip one? The The gum. Like to me to me that was that was the pinnacle of technology as a kid because I had I had this thing that was like a quarter. You could like throw it up and down. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And yet it was so powerful because music is so emotional. Yeah. And like it felt like it could take you on a whole journey be as entertaining as watching a movie just playing songs.
Speaker 7:And you never knew what song was coming next.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Part of the romance. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Part of
Speaker 2:the romance.
Speaker 1:It was like gambling gambling with audio. It's like, you know, slot slot machine every time you press skip.
Speaker 7:Yeah. And and I think we're gonna see I I feel it now, but this is my world that I live in. I think we're gonna see this sort of looking back. Like Yeah. I I I run across the Brooklyn Bridge seven days a week, unless I wake up in San Francisco.
Speaker 7:Sure. And what's interesting that I've noticed in the last five years is it would always be people's iPhones. And now the amount of people I see with these antiquated ten year old point and shoot cameras Yeah. And they do it in sort of a flex.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:Of course. They're using this camera that is is objectively a lower quality camera that's what's on their phone. Yeah. Yet it says something about them.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:In some ways, York City is probably getting captured on film more now Sure. Than than when film cameras were like the only way to to actually take a photo. Yeah. It's because the the diffused like historically it probably wasn't like, you know, thousands of people spread across the city at all times getting every single angle and yet now that actually is what's happening.
Speaker 7:Wisconsin. Yeah. My favorite 35 millimeter point in shoe is this Olympus.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 7:Okay. A $150 when it came out in the in the box. Yeah. And they stopped making it whatever fifteen years ago. Every time I'd break one, I'd buy it off of eBay for $50.
Speaker 7:Sure. I noticed a couple years ago that they weren't 50 anymore. They're like a 100. Oh, wow. Okay.
Speaker 1:Then it was like 200.
Speaker 7:My wife asked me for one for her birthday and I went to buy it. It $400. Get a corner of the market. And now they're And now they're almost unavailable. And I think it's it's akin to like what we see with classic cars.
Speaker 7:Like people appreciate Yeah. What these things were.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what makes me so excited about So you guys chose point
Speaker 1:and shoot.
Speaker 2:Palmer's yeah. Palmer's teased something. He can't say anything, Palmer's teased like, I don't like connected TVs. I don't like music, and I don't like cameras. And I'm like, yes.
Speaker 2:Like the the connect
Speaker 1:I mean, I I have have this thing of like good panel. Every the the the frustration that I have with hopefully, isn't just like my issue and I'm like not updating the software or something. Let us hear it. But like
Speaker 7:Let us hear it.
Speaker 1:But but the the level to which like modern TVs, the software degrades to the point where you're like, okay, like I'm gonna click. I'm gonna click and I click too many times and now I gotta go, you know, like
Speaker 7:Have you followed along with this LG controversy? Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:Break it down for those who haven't.
Speaker 7:Okay. The TLDR is that the most modern LGT. Yeah. They have the best panels.
Speaker 2:The best panels. Yeah. OLED. It's amazing.
Speaker 7:The most expensive. Yep. A couple of hackers, a cup they have a YouTube channel. Yep. Apologize.
Speaker 7:Don't remember the name. They deserve a plug. Yeah. But they broke down all of the software and they they determined that the microphone that was intended for like, change it to HBO Yeah. Is actually listening all Yeah.
Speaker 7:Oh, great. So much so, then when it wasn't networked, when it wasn't connected to the network, it would store the audio files locally. Yeah. And then when it reconnected Okay. It would upload it.
Speaker 1:Good.
Speaker 7:I watched that and I was like, fuck. This is what Palmer's going Yeah. On about
Speaker 1:with his
Speaker 7:desire to make a dumb TV. Yeah. And then I realized in my bedroom where I sleep with my wife Yeah. Most nights. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Some nights when they get married. Yeah. We have that fucking LGBT.
Speaker 1:I know. I have one too.
Speaker 7:So I unplug it from the wall now when I walk
Speaker 2:in the bedroom.
Speaker 1:And it's just like remember how fast, how snappy old TVs were? Yeah. Just press a button, it was just instant?
Speaker 7:How snappy 45 for me, it was one of was a physical dial. Yeah. With a long wire that immediate.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Immediate. Immediate.
Speaker 1:Wired remotes.
Speaker 7:Yeah. I'll be the first one to buy that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I remember sort of some of my frustrations with the One of the one of the meta quests was that I found out that I had seven passwords because I had a keypad, a code, a a meta password, an Instagram, Facebook password And and an Oculus VR password. And and I and I showed this whole process of like, what it takes to just take it and then play a game, and it was like fifteen minutes. And then and then I play and then I just found a video of somebody turning on n 64 and you just ping. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ping. And you're
Speaker 7:on. Just turn it on.
Speaker 2:And it's the same thing.
Speaker 7:Playing the game.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're playing the game. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 7:Our Samsung TV Yeah. In the other in the guest room.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. In the doghouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In the doghouse.
Speaker 7:In order for me to download Netflix, I have to sign in to Samsung. I don't have a Samsung No.
Speaker 2:Why would I?
Speaker 7:And I don't want one. You I just don't watch fucking Netflix on this thing.
Speaker 2:Samsung.
Speaker 7:It is just so much.
Speaker 1:You're lame.
Speaker 7:They ask so much of us.
Speaker 1:I know. And it's it's not better for the
Speaker 6:customer.
Speaker 2:No. It's terrible.
Speaker 7:Just wanna suck that from you to sell you
Speaker 2:more It's terrible. It's terrible. Flipping over to the the creator economy, the creator side of things. I I have this idea that with with the the the advances in vibe coding, there is an opportunity basically for someone to make a game every single day for mod retro or or any platform web games, and that muscle of doing something small every day would compound. I don't know that they would become the next GTA six, but they would become something.
Speaker 2:And I'm wondering how you think about creativity and daily rituals, new platforms in a time of rapidly decreasing cost to create whatever it is.
Speaker 7:Yeah. I have a super cynical perspective on it and a wild optimistic sense. Okay. So the optimistic one is like, what is it, a million monkeys at a million typewriters and they'll eventually type out all of Shakespeare?
Speaker 2:Shakespeare, yeah.
Speaker 7:I think that's there's a there's a math says that's going to happen. Yeah. In other words, vibe coding games or
Speaker 2:So you were the monkey on YouTube, the type Shakespeare. Correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Correct.
Speaker 7:But I didn't have vibe coding.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 7:And I didn't have AI video. No. And when
Speaker 2:But you did have GoPros and Canon five iMovie. And YouTube. You didn't need to shoot on film
Speaker 7:It didn't matter. RE. I just kept uploading. Yeah. And then, like the line that that I share that often shocks people is I was, I think very successful on YouTube.
Speaker 7:Very successful. After I'm hearing about this for the
Speaker 2:first time.
Speaker 7:After after after seven years of a very successful presence on YouTube I had 280,000 subscribers.
Speaker 6:Okay.
Speaker 7:And then I started the daily vlog. Yeah. I I started I was the monkey that never left the final monkey. Eighteen months later, had 10,000,000.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's crazy.
Speaker 7:And I think if I had maintained that cadence, if the top of the funnel hadn't become more accessible if the cameras hadn't gotten cheaper Sure. I hadn't gotten faster at editing because the technology enabled, that inflection point would not have happened. Sure. So I am, yes, I am like the I am the original monkey at the But I think now, with what AI is doing, it's something that is much more complete. Mhmm.
Speaker 7:And when people shit on AI video, and when I say people, mean me. Yeah. I think it's gonna get to a point where there's gonna be something that's made on AI that's 100% AI that's undeniably good. And it's just gonna sort of force people to be like, oh, I hate it because it was made with AI, but it was a really good fucking movie. Yeah.
Speaker 7:And eventually that negativity is gonna start to wane. It will be sort of undeniable. Sure. There's some cynicism in there. Yeah.
Speaker 7:I also think that that will enable, especially when it comes to things like gaming. Yeah. Creating software. Yeah. It's just when you open the top of the funnel that wide.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:The amount of shit being made increases Yeah. But so does the amount of quality stuff being made. Yeah. So I am highly optimistic that there are gonna be these diamonds Yeah. Along a sea of coal, lumps of coal Yeah.
Speaker 7:That that will have real impact
Speaker 2:Yeah. And be meaningful. I would also Yeah.
Speaker 1:When I when I think back like I used to work on little like iPhone games. And I remember when I was like trying to just make Pong. Right? It was like I was just trying to make the most simple possible game. The amount of like frustration where you go from like, you know, it's exhilarating because you're you're making progress and then you you get like stuck on something and I was probably like 11 or something at the time.
Speaker 1:Then you get stuck on something for like two hours and it's like pure pain and you're like, how do I figure out how to get through and then you get through. And part of that is like very part of that is like extremely positive and like worthwhile lessons around like hitting blockers and pushing through. But the amazing thing with AI is like just being able to bust through those like much faster and then compound compound those learnings and and do an an individual person doing 10 times as much in the same period of time and it's hard not to be excited about that.
Speaker 2:It's like a monkey with 10 hands. That's the best analogy for AI?
Speaker 7:Exactly. We have to keep this monkey analogy. Yes.
Speaker 1:Naturally everyone went from like, okay, I'm reading way more AI generated text and and that was over basically the last two years. And now it's getting harder and harder to tell and I we even know people that produce a lot of AI written content but they've figured out ways to make it not you know, pangrammable at least obviously.
Speaker 2:Until you
Speaker 1:way more way more like AI video which which is like working for me on some niche like where I'm like trying to learn specifically about a topic. But then, but I keep getting hung up on this idea of like, did the person that published that has owns the account, did they actually review this video? Because I think that that's where the Is there an actual curation? Is there someone saying? Because specifically I'm thinking of there's there's an account on Instagram that does like sim sim racing like Okay.
Speaker 1:Tutorials, lessons or whatever. And so they're putting out like probably 20 videos a day on different topics. And a lot of it feels like generally right but but the the where where it will break down is like if if you just if if the AI is effectively like reading an online forum and then just piping it into video and then that advice is like expired almost.
Speaker 7:Yeah. You're describing the modern news cycle. Yeah. Like that is what, you know, Instagram, TikTok Yeah. And you know, x news is.
Speaker 7:It's it's a it's a variant of what you're describing.
Speaker 2:A fire hose.
Speaker 7:That's why there's so much the the noise to signal ratio has just gotten so convoluted and difficult to navigate. I don't Maybe like a more acute example of something like that is like, my favorite genre on YouTube is short, esoteric World War two documentaries. Sure. There's a guy, he's my favorite YouTube brother on planet, name is Mark Felton.
Speaker 1:Okay. Mark Felton. I love that guy.
Speaker 7:You know this guy.
Speaker 1:That's why I fall I fall asleep to that kind
Speaker 7:Me too.
Speaker 1:Every day, when I get
Speaker 7:my sandwich at lunch and I sit in my office by myself, I watch one of his stuff. Like a 50 year old British historian. He is objectively terrible filmmaker Yeah. Yeah. Who makes the single best videos.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's just
Speaker 7:him narrating it over whatever images he could find. I watch that and then I also watch these 100% AI generated that clearly have a human Yeah. Editorial oversight because they're they're factually correct. Very well done. And they have all of the YouTube AI notifications all over And it it doesn't bother me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:It doesn't bother me because it feels like I'm I'm reading something
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:With visuals that are simply there to support it. It it's I'm very conscious that these are artificially generated images. They're just meant to sort of visualize Yeah. What something looked like that wasn't actually captured. And for me, like, those are the fissures Yeah.
Speaker 7:I'm seeing as someone who's like an anti who's a purist when it comes to filmmaking.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 7:Sure. Yet, I'm willing to tolerate that. I think that delta is gonna
Speaker 1:That's why I don't I I never like AI content is already here. It's happening. There's gonna be 10 Yeah. Thousand times more of it and probably
Speaker 2:A lot of it's But
Speaker 1:I haven't been afraid because when I when I think about my favorite creators and where I'm actually spending attention today, it's like it's it's like the guy that you're just talking about, Mark Felton. There's another guy named H. I. Sutton who's just obsessed with like naval warfare Yes. And just nerds out about it and
Speaker 7:he subscriber. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I I figured. But like, he'll just basically press record and he has a presentation like slides Yeah. That he's going through.
Speaker 7:And he's narrating
Speaker 1:He's like, I don't use AI. I just sort of sit here and talk. And it's like incredibly captivating and interesting because you're listening to somebody like the world expert on the topic who maybe uses AI to learn about some stuff now like off off air but then he's just narrating it as a human and there's just all I'm always gonna have time in my day for the HI Suttons of the world.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Look, it's a it's a proliferation of of podcasts on YouTube. Yeah. Like if I'm watching something that when I edit my own videos, like I will debate a single frame twenty fourth of a second. Does this fuck up my timing?
Speaker 7:Sure. Yet then I'll click play and watch a three hour podcast Yeah. Where it's just some dude talking for three hours because I care about the subject matter.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 7:And I think this is like the the extraordinary range in people's appetite for what they're willing to give their attention to. And the idea that there isn't room in there for AI content, think is, is misguided at best.
Speaker 2:Last question. What shirt are you wearing under that jacket?
Speaker 7:Well, I would like to I do have a plug today. This isn't to sell anything because these aren't for sale, but
Speaker 1:There we go.
Speaker 7:Look at that. Our former intern
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 7:At Mod Retro, Jeremy Yeah. Who's now his title on his business card is special operations.
Speaker 2:K.
Speaker 7:We knew what else to give him as a title when we put him on payroll. He designed this latest mod retro merch.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So everyone watching can screenshot it. And as a fun game, try and identify each of these letters because they each come from a different game.
Speaker 7:Which one got us hung up this morning?
Speaker 2:I think It was the r. T we were going or you
Speaker 7:I I knew the t.
Speaker 2:I identified the m, the o, the d. I think I might have missed the E, the r. You knew the o and I I I was off on the 64, but I was directionally correct. Direction. Correct.
Speaker 2:No spoilers, but plenty of teasers. Go figure it out.
Speaker 7:Complements to Jeremy
Speaker 2:Head over to Mod Retro, get yourself a chromatic and
Speaker 1:start Turn the t shirt into a playable game.
Speaker 7:Yes. Yes. I'd download it. I'd I'd flash it on my There you go. Card.
Speaker 2:Well, that's our show, Thank you for tuning in to TBPN. We will see you tomorrow at 11AM Pacific. Sharp back in the TBPN UltraDome in Hollywood and
Speaker 1:I a wild I see a wild Theo over here.
Speaker 2:Oh, we gotta go see him. You know, those
Speaker 1:He and Elon and Dario and Sam agree on a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2:They do. They do. Well, we will see
Speaker 1:you tomorrow. Goodbye. Cheers, folks.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.