Walking This Way

This week, Lise is joined by Penny Menato of RosaBlue, who she met on a Ramble Worldwide walking weekend in the Lake District and immediately clicked with. Penny hand-makes every single piece she sells, cuts it all out herself, pins it together in front of the telly, and has never been on a podcast before. So this is a bit of a world exclusive, and a lovely one.

Lise has been reading up on fast fashion and the facts are grim, the sheer mountains of clothes that get sent abroad or end up in landfill, but this isn't a guilt trip. Penny's message is simple: just do something. Buy your next thing in a natural fabric, sew the button back on, chop the sleeves off that baggy shirt and suddenly it's a summer top. This is one for anyone who love clothes and wants to shop with a bit more thought, and for anyone who wishes they knew how to darn!

In this episode, join Lise and discover:
  • How Penny went from knitting jumpers to pay her way through university in South Africa to running RosaBlue
  • The textile waste figures that stopped Lise in her tracks, including one wash of polyester clothing releasing as many as 700,000 microplastic fibres, and around 711,000 tonnes of textiles a year going into general rubbish in the UK
  • What happens to online returns and unsold stock
  • Simple things to try now, from buying your next item in a natural fabric to sewing on that button, shortening a baggy t-shirt and turning an old duvet cover into a dress
  • How Penny built a loyal Instagram community from her phone by posting every day, and why she says to enjoy the little things right in front of you.
Quote of the episode
"Just do something. Don't throw away your entire wardrobe if it's full of polyester. But next time you buy something, just buy it in a natural fabric."
– Penny Menato

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Produced by The Good Studio - thegoodstudio.co.uk

Creators and Guests

Host
Lise Thorne
Host of Walking This Way and champion of midlife women
Guest
Penny Menato
Founder RosaBlue, handmade clothes designer
Producer
Tim Beynon
Podcast producer and Founder of The Good Studio

What is Walking This Way?

Welcome to Walking This Way - the upfront, no-nonsense podcast about midlife for women who are done with pretending it’s all fine.

Join Lise Thorne for honest conversations, unfiltered stories and a good dose of humour as she explores what it really means to be a woman in midlife - from shifting priorities and changing bodies to rediscovering joy, purpose and self.

Real talk. Real women. Real midlife.

Because this isn’t about surviving midlife - it’s about walking it your way.

Walking This Way is produced by The Good Studio.

Penny (00:00)
Just do something. Don’t throw away your entire wardrobe if it’s full of polyester. But next time you buy something, just buy it in a natural fabric. And also teach our children. Make them not love Primark for one date.
Lise (00:26)
Hello and welcome back to season two, episode three of Walking This Way. And how are we all?
Now, some of you will know that I turned 50 just over a week ago, and I have basically spent the whole time in bed. Well, most of it. After a little while I moved to the kitchen, because I had to be closer to the snacks and the tea-making facilities. But the week before my 50th, my youngest had very kindly brought back some germs, the beginning-of-school-year germs, and the change of season and a full moon, it was all going on. And I ended up going to bed for nearly a week with flu. I don’t know if it was flu or burnout.
And what I realised about the phrase burnout was that I’m always telling people not to burn out, and I felt a little bit of shame about it. I felt a bit of shame about saying, well, I’ve got flu, but I think it’s burnout, because I literally could not function. I mean, I couldn’t even watch Netflix until about day six. That’s how bad it was. So when I see or feel shame in myself, that’s when I have to share it. There is no shame in burnout. There’s no shame in the fact that I tell everyone not to burn out and then I burn out. There is no shame. We are all just doing our very best, and I wanted to share that with you. So if you’re experiencing flu, as lots of people are at the moment, or burnout, do everything you can to look after yourself. There is nothing else you have to do right now.
And before we get on to today’s lovely episode, which I hope will be a warm, nourishing hug of an episode, I’ve got a little favour to ask. If the show has ever kept you company in your sick bed, on a walk, or made you feel a little bit less alone, please share it with another woman in your life. Follow us on your usual podcast platform and leave a review. It takes about 10 seconds and it helps other women to find us. And it means you’ll get a lovely notification every time a new episode drops, so you never need to miss one.
And for episode three, it gives me much pleasure to welcome the beautiful Penny Menato onto the show. Now, Penny and I met on a Ramble Worldwide walking weekend up in the Lake District earlier this year, and there was an instant connection. I think that sometimes we meet people in this life and we’re really drawn to each other because we’re opposites. We all know the phrase “opposites attract”. And what I saw in Penny was this calm, nourishing, slow, considered woman whose aura I just wanted to be in. I know that sounds a bit woo woo, but really, when you meet Penny and when you talk with Penny, it’s like having a hot cup of chicken soup. You can tell where I’ve been for the last week.
I really wanted to discuss something that’s so needed at the moment, this idea of slow fashion, and how we combat the evil online superpower tech bro businesses that are dominating the world right now. I really enjoyed this chat. So here is Penny Menato.
Lise (03:48)
Today I’m joined by the lovely Penny Menato. “Inside my workshop and wardrobe: low-waist clothes [check against Instagram bio], crafts and outfits celebrating style at any age.” Penny, welcome to the Walking This Way podcast. How are you?
Penny
Hi. Lovely to be here.
Lise
Now, not everybody will know this, despite your celebrity and fame, Penny, your quiet celebrity and fame, but this is a world exclusive. You’ve never agreed to be on a podcast before.
Penny
No. Just for you.
Lise
And today we’re talking about lots of things. In that introduction, I quoted something from your Instagram about low-waist clothes [check]. I just want to start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, Penny, and how this came about, and how your interest in what you do now came about. You hand-produce all of your clothes, which is beautiful. But tell us where it started and how it started.
Penny
Okay. It started ages ago. I think I can trace it back to when I was still a teenager. I went to uni in South Africa, and it’s not free. Not that it’s free here any more either, but you had to pay for everything. So I used to knit jumpers to help pay for my fees and my living expenses. I’ve had no formal training. My mum did all our sewing. She sewed everything. So that’s how I learned.
I went to university and studied English and history, so nothing to do with what I’m doing now. But all the way through, I carried on making things. Then I had the kids. I have two girls, and I dressed them in clothes that I made, and people would stop me on the street and say, “Where did you get that? I’d love to have one.” So I had a little children’s clothing business when they were little. And then we moved to England.
Lise
Right.
Penny
And I thought there were so many children’s clothes here that I wasn’t going to do that. So I made various things, not clothes. I knitted a bit, I made accessories, I did some work for Cabbages & Roses when they first started out and helped do their designs and their stuff. And then, about, where are we, 2026, so probably about fifteen years ago, a friend of mine said, “You really should start selling some of the clothes that you make.” Because I was doing dolls and things and hearts and, you know, all the sort of Americana, which was very big at the time.
Lise
Yeah.
Penny
And so then I started making skirts, and I’m still making them.
Lise
So you’ve always been making. Your mother was making and you followed in her line.
Penny
As a child I hated making. I was a tomboy. It was my sister that was making.
Lise
Interestingly, Penny, and I always want to call you Rosa, and we’ll get onto the RosaBlue name, but I always go in my head between Penny and Rosa. Interestingly, my mum used to make clothes, and that’s what she did, you know, and she would make me little sailor dresses. She would buy me a dress from Laura Ashley that was really expensive at the time, I used to have needlecord dresses and sailor dresses, and I loved them both. And she’d buy one and then she’d work out the pattern, or buy a pattern, and she would make one. My mum made me hundreds of dresses. She made her own curtains. She did so much of that. And when I hear you talking, there’s such a love in that. There’s such a warmth and a care in hand-making something, and you evoked that memory in me. And I suppose that’s what it is. It’s slow fashion, we’ve got loads to talk about, but there’s something in it that’s done with care and love.
Penny
Yeah, and slowness, because it takes much longer. Although I have machines, I have industrial sewing machines, I cut everything myself. That’s where fast fashion saves a lot of time. They will have, can you see my hands, a pile of fabric and an electric cutter, and they will cut hundreds, thousands of the same thing all in one go.
Lise
Wow.
Penny
So you’ll end up with three thousand pairs of shorts all cut within five minutes. Whereas I cut everything by hand. So yeah, it’s obviously a much slower process, but for me a much nicer one.
Lise
So the brand that you talked about, twelve, fifteen years ago, that was RosaBlue. Am I right?
Penny
Yes.
Lise
And just tell me the story behind the name, because I like it.
Penny
Well, do you want the first name that I had, or RosaBlue?
Lise
Well, no, tell me both.
Penny
Okay. Well, one big mistake I made when I came to England and chose a name. It was Naif Ideas, N-A-I-F. And everyone called it “Naff Ideas”. So when I went into the clothing, I decided, okay, it’s time to change this name, let’s get a new name. And so it’s RosaBlue. My husband’s Italian, and rosa is pink, and blue is obviously blue. So we’re a partnership, although I think I do all the work. That’s the pink and the blue.
Lise
And by the way, me and my husband, we’re a husband-and-wife team, and I too believe that I do all of it. I mean, they’re not bad, they have a certain use, but you know, we won’t go there. That’s not the subject.
Penny
That’s another podcast.
Lise
That’s another podcast, Penny. So RosaBlue started, and I love this idea. This is the story, isn’t it? When I was researching for this, you just said it, about those three thousand pairs of shorts, or however many you said.
Penny
Yeah.
Lise
It suddenly made me feel sad. The emotion that I had was sadness. And I thought about who is cutting that, where are they cutting it, how much are they being paid. There’s a whole thing about that. I know that the large brands have now got supply chain audits, et cetera, but we also know those are still not quite what we’d want to see for our family, or for those families in India or China or wherever they’re being made. But there’s something, before we even get to the landfill and the waste of that, there’s something different in the fact that, there’s a film, isn’t there, about cooking, and when you cook and you put your love into it, the dish is better for the love that went in whilst cooking. And it’s the same with the garments that you’re making.
Penny
I think that’s really true. I think if you’re making something slowly, I keep saying slowly, but it is, each process, you know, like I pin all the things together, and sitting there, often in the evening in front of the telly, pinning my gathering stitches together, it’s quite meditative, which I think goes into the clothes. It makes a difference.
Lise
And meditative for you, and we’ve talked about that before. Honestly, you’re talking and it’s my mum. The pins with the heads on were easier to find than the little ones, and then sewing on the machine and taking the pins out as she went, pins in her mouth.
Penny
In her mouth. Absolutely. I still put pins in my mouth.
Lise
What do we do? We just don’t do that.
And so, first of all, we’ve got the fact that the garment is made with love, which goes into the clothes. Secondly, the fabrics that you use. It took me ages, I wrote down so many facts, honestly, it blew my mind. I’m going to share a few, and then I’d love you to tell us where you get your fabrics from and why. One of the things I read was that a single wash of polyester clothing can release as many as seven hundred thousand microplastic fibres. And textiles are estimated to account for nine per cent of the microplastic pollution reaching the oceans every year. Textiles, nine per cent of the microplastics going into our seas. So we know that fast fashion is causing massive environmental destruction, but we all know that. Some of the stats I read about, I never thought about polyester being…
Penny
I don’t like wearing polyester. Full stop. And in fact, I don’t think… I’m not saying I haven’t got any.
Lise
And of course I wear Lycra, because I’m a triathlete, you know, Penny.
Penny
You’re a gym [unclear], Penny?
Lise
Do you know what? I had a pair of cotton leggings. I tried to buy them. I did buy a pair of cotton leggings and they just didn’t stay up. So I got rid of them. I sent them to a charity shop. I got rid of them, Penny.
That’s going to make me bring up another. We create around ninety-two million tons of textile waste globally every year. That’s two hundred and, isn’t it, two hundred and fifty-two thousand tons every single day. I thought I knew what we were talking about today, Penny, and then when I actually read the facts, I say every podcast makes me want to cry, and this one makes me want to cry. Here in the UK, around 711,000 tons of textiles are thrown into general waste each year. That’s about 1,950 tons every day. The average person in the UK throws 35 items of unwanted textiles into the general rubbish every year. It beggars belief.
Penny
It does beggar belief. And even if you take it to the charity shops, the charity shops can’t get rid of it, people don’t buy it at all, and then they have to dispose of it, which is expensive for them. There used to be, and I think there still is, but not as much, a sort of rag system, and they would come around to the charity shops and get all the unwanted textiles. Do you know the stuff that goes under carpets, the sort of underfelt, I think it’s called?
Lise
Yeah.
Penny
That’s made from old waste textiles. But we’re producing too many textiles to turn into all these other things. So it just ends up getting shipped to Africa. I don’t know if you’ve seen those awful pictures of the rubbish dumps, which are all just clothes. And we’re producing more and more. That’s another fact: I think global production of clothes doubled. I read that somewhere.
Lise
Between 2000 and 2015, global clothing… I sound like a dictionary, because I’m just trying to… It’s all blowing my mind, but you just mentioned it. Between 2000 and 2015, global clothing production doubled, while the length of time garments were used fell by thirty-six per cent. It’s hard, if you’re someone who wants to wear nice clothes and refresh your wardrobe and everything, to read stats like that. You kind of go, what am I doing?
Penny
But if you buy something and you have it for years and years… To be honest, and this might be controversial, even if it’s fast fashion, even if it’s not well made and made in bulk, if you keep it and you’re wearing that thing for five, ten years… I have things in my wardrobe that I had when I was pregnant. You don’t have to get rid of this stuff. But preferably buy new, good stuff that’s going to last, rather than stuff that’s going to fall apart after three washes. And of course, if you’re cutting three thousand pairs of shorts at once and you’re sewing in that manner, you are going to have faults. It’s done quickly, and a twenty-five pound, well, probably not even twenty-five pound, a three-pound top from Temu that’s been shipped from China…
Lise
Yeah.
Penny
We don’t value it either. If it’s cheap, we just don’t value it as much.
Lise
And yet, cost of living and everything like that is terrible. But it is the length. Researching this has made me question my own habits, Penny. I didn’t think that I was particularly bad, but now that I’ve heard some of these stats about what I do… So, for example, and you all know this, I’ve noticed on Instagram there are a lot of women in their midlife, like us, who have blown their accounts up by doing fashion. What to wear.
Penny
Yeah. What to wear.
Lise
And they clip the reel quickly, and they’re pulling up an ASOS bag that’s as big as a broom, or a different brand, and they’re trying on, trying on, trying on. I do those reels too, occasionally, Penny. If I’ve bought some clothes, I try them on, I do it for the camera. And I know that I’m advertising brands out there, and lots of people have said to me, generally, about my clothes, because I only wear natural fibres as well…
Penny
Yeah, me too. Which is much healthier for us. Apart from this Lycra that I wear, and I try and get it off as quickly as possible. It allows your body to breathe. It’s more in harmony with us, isn’t it?
Lise
Yeah. Those clothes are more expensive, and people say to me, “Please try on cheaper clothes as well.” And I don’t want to. And I do buy… Another thing I read was that we think nothing of ordering five dresses, trying them on and sending them back. And ASOS reported in their very own reports that returns alone produce thirty-one thousand tons of CO2 in one year. Because they don’t recycle, they don’t resell those returns. The returns are then binned. Which is mind-boggling. If you return four dresses, those dresses are as good as sold as far as they’re concerned. They don’t resell them.
Penny
Wow. Not even to the TK Maxxers of this world?
Lise
Maybe to the TK Maxxers. Maybe that’s where TK Maxx gets their stock from.
Penny
Yeah, you might be right there. But it’s more hassle, and it costs more in terms of employing people in this country to refold it and package it and make it look as though it hasn’t been tried on. It’s easier for them to just go, okay, well… So the margins they must be making, that’s where my mind boggles. I know how much it costs to make, say, a pair of pyjamas. You go to Primark or one of these places, and you can get a pair of pyjamas. I mean, I haven’t been to Primark for an absolute eon, but I think you can get them for very little money, like six, seven pounds. Now, the fabric to make a pair of pyjamas is, for me, more than six or seven pounds. I can’t make a pair of pyjamas, just the fabric, let alone any time or anything else. So what are they paying the people who are making it? It must be pennies. Because they still have to ship it, and they still put the markup on. I used to have a shop. Your markup is meant to be two and a half times minimum, to cover all the rates and rent and, you know, blah, blah, blah. So you’re left with nothing.
Lise
Do you know what? That’s really interesting, because my sister was design director for Phase Eight. And I remember saying to her, “Can’t you make pyjamas? I love pyjamas, I really want pyjamas.” And we were talking about another brand, something like Hush, and they’re not a cheap brand. And she said, “I don’t know how they make it for that cost.” Because a pyjama is a top and a pair of trousers, and they’re roomy, because you don’t want pyjamas that are tight. So it’s a lot of fabric.
Penny
It’s more fabric, isn’t it?
Lise
And she said they cannot compete on pyjamas because of exactly what you said. But we no longer think like that, and I’m talking about myself here. There’s no judgement of anyone, as I always say on Walking This Way, because we don’t know what we don’t know. But you just said that thing about the clothes, and I’m like, Lise, because that’s what I do. A haul. I don’t buy the clothes because I want to do a haul on Instagram, which I believe a lot of people do now. I genuinely believe that.
And this year I’m really planning… There was a brand, and I wish I could remember it, and I will find out what it is and pop it in our show notes as well, Penny, if you don’t mind. It’s another slow fashion brand, somewhere in Wales. And they were talking to me about providing a pair of trousers or a top or something, and it gave me the idea of doing a reel. It’s still selling fashion, not for me personally, but to support the smaller, slower fashion brands. I’d like to do something where I can get clothes. The problem is, it’s not prohibitively expensive, but there’s postage back and forth if I choose not to keep the clothes. Which is why nobody does, I call them hauls, nobody does these fashion reels on slow fashion, because the postage has to be paid back and forth. And the clothes are more bespoke. They’re not always bespoke, but often this other brand was. And you want to make sure that the item fits, and then it’s too prohibitively expensive.
Penny
Yeah.
Lise
But I would like to try and do some stuff. And Adrienne, who works for me, she’s like, what’s the right word, the queen of the high street. She’s trying to save the high street and small brands. And she’s like, “Lise, you need to do a small brand creator haul, to give them more space.” And to be honest, I can afford to pay some postage there and back. But it becomes this thing about, well, you send me something at your cost. And that’s why ASOS or Boden, who I use far too much, the sending-back process is so easy.
Penny
So easy, absolutely. All the big guys, they make it really easy for you to buy lots. And that’s also why Vinted is so popular, because people don’t send things back in time, and then they have these clothes that they’ve never worn, and they stick them on Vinted.
Lise
Well, and I’ve also heard that Vinted, who are of course a huge corporation now as well… I don’t shop on Vinted. And lots of people say to me, also on Instagram, “Go and have a look on Vinted.” And when I’ve tried to do it, my raccoon-on-meth brain, I’m multitasking everything, I look at Vinted, I look at some brands I like, I try to see if I can do it. They’re not in my size.
Penny
Yeah.
Lise
I can work it out, I can do better. But like you said as well, new clothes go on Vinted that nobody bought. But then there’s the buying and selling on Vinted. That’s much, much, much better.
Penny
Much better than that. I’m hugely into secondhand stuff. But the problem with Vinted is the charity shops are now dying, because all the good stuff is going to Vinted, and the charity shops are getting the stuff that actually nobody really wants. And those are the things that used to be shipped to Africa to have a second life. In fact, there’s a young boy on Instagram, I can’t remember his account, he’s maybe less than twenty years old, and he is buying off, I think you referred to it earlier, the rag trade.
Lise
Yeah.
Penny
Maybe it’s Sri Lanka that he goes to. He doesn’t go there, but he did visit the factory, and he said it’s absolutely crazy. We take the charity shop clothes that aren’t sold, and they go off to this place in Sri Lanka where they’re washed and packed as bulk.
Lise
Yeah.
Penny
And then they get sent back to him in the UK, and then he has a vintage store. So it’s quite professional. But we’re shipping clothes around the world more than once.
Lise
The world, yeah. More than once. They probably came from there in the first place.
Penny
They probably did, yes.
Lise
And before we move off the fact that products are just destroyed, this is Amazon, so it’s not clothes specific, but I did have to pull an Amazon stat out for our podcast, Penny.
Penny
Well, you mentioned it about clothes. I didn’t know it about clothes. I did know it about Amazon.
Lise
One Amazon warehouse was marking around 130,000 products a week for destruction.
Penny
One warehouse?
Lise
One warehouse, in one week. A hundred and thirty thousand. And before you said that to me just now, I felt a bit, no, when I say I felt a bit smug, I use Amazon as much as the next person, Penny. I go through times, and now is going to be another one of them, where I’m like, I’m not using Amazon again, I’m taking the app off my phone. You know, I am guilty of needing a glue stick for the kids the next day and I order it on Amazon. I didn’t get off my arse and walk down to WHSmith, that’s not called WHSmith any more, whatever it’s called. But it’s crazy. And when you think about stats like that, I had not equated it to clothing either.
Penny
The thing, though, that I’m sort of aware of, because I beat my drum about all this stuff, is not to make everyone feel so bad that they don’t do anything, or that they just feel like, it’s too much, I can’t cope. Even just doing something small, like only buying natural fabrics, or mending. Apparently people don’t sew buttons on. If the button goes off, then they throw the thing away. Well, don’t. Just sew on the button. Mending is a huge way to keep things in circulation and to make things last longer. It’s all about making things last longer. If they’re made well from good fabric, they will last, and then we won’t overconsume. We won’t buy fifteen jumpers, because this is my favourite jumper and I wear it all the time.
Lise
Yeah. Well, when you said sew on a button, I can sew. I’m a generation that was taught home economics. My mother sewed, so I saw her doing it, and I was taught home economics at school. I was taught cooking, sewing and textiles. And of course those subjects have almost been eradicated from the curriculum. Again, another podcast. But the fact that we have so deprioritised the more creative or more hands-on experiences from school… I do wonder if people still have… I was seeing if it was in my bedroom, because I’ve been sewing blooming name tapes on my child’s uniform. But I have a sewing box, and I wonder how many houses even have a sewing box any more. Because like you said, if you can get a three-pound top on Temu, why are you going to do it?
Now, let’s talk a little bit about the natural fabrics, Penny, because I believe you use natural fabrics, and you recycle fabrics as well?
Penny
Yes, I do. So I use cotton. Cotton, to be honest, is not brilliant, because it’s very hungry for water, and the process of growing it is, you know, quite low on the scheme of things. But it is the cheapest of the natural fabrics. And so you’re kind of balancing. You’re thinking, okay, well, I can live with that. I try and use organic cotton, but I also do use just ordinary cotton. I use linen, and I use a little bit of boiled wool sometimes, which is recycled, not by me, but by the place that I buy it from.
Lise
What would you use boiled wool for?
Penny
Jackets and things. It’s that, you know, Austrian, Tyrolean kind of thing. That’s boiled wool.
Lise
Right. That’s quite a stiff fabric, is it?
Penny
It’s almost like felt. But then I will also make things like this. You can’t really see it, but this is made from an old duvet cover.
Lise
No! Is it a pinafore dress?
Penny
It’s a pinafore dress, yeah.
Lise
Are you able to stand up where you are? We might just get… You’re not going to be able to go far enough back on the thing. I love it. And it’s made from an old duvet. Fabulous.
Penny
So yeah. I also use old embroidered linens. You know, tablecloths.
Lise
Tablecloths, yeah.
Penny
And tray cloths and stuff like that. And I patch them in with other fabrics like ginghams and whatever, and make pinafores, skirts, dresses, whatever.
Lise
It’s so beautiful. It’s so much joy. We definitely did have a Roman blind, I think it was a Roman blind, the type that’s folded fabric, [unclear: “and that’s the fold linen sheets”]. And again, it links back to, you know, couples. I feel like there was a lot of linen in Ireland. Is that true? Have I made that up?
Penny
Yes, that is true. It’s absolutely true.
Lise
And a couple would get their linen bed sheets for life. They would have their initials embroidered, or napkins embroidered.
Penny
And hangings.
Lise
Yes. Just so beautiful. And we’re going back to slowness, aren’t we?
Penny
Yeah, we are. And we’re going back also to the fact that the fabrics that were used were good fabrics. If you bought a sheet now, even 100 per cent cotton, it’ll last a couple of years, maybe two, three years, because it’ll wear through with all the sleeping and whatever goes on in the bed. [unclear: “wish. He can wish.”] Whereas those linen sheets, I mean, they lasted forever, and when they got worn, they got patched.
Lise
A bit of a side story. When you came down, Penny, with your gorgeous daughter and stayed for a couple of days, I have got my most favourite ever cashmere orange jumper, and it’s worn through quite quickly, but I’ve worn it anyway. It’s a little bit small for me, but I wear it anyway. And I’ve done everything to keep the bobbles off. When I get a little grease stain, which I get almost every time, in fact I had one on this top before we came, and I had to sort of do a little bit of work, pick something off it. And it got a hole in it, and I was thinking, maybe I should ask Penny. I don’t know how to darn. And I thought, that’s a real skill, isn’t it? And when you were here, I didn’t do it. We didn’t have anything else.
Penny
You should have. I’ll come down, especially for a darning lesson.
Lise
Because I knew that could be the joy of that jumper. I refuse to get rid of it. Some of the reason why I refuse to get rid of it is because, number one, it is my favourite, but number two, I know you. I know that sounds silly, but I see you on Instagram every day, and it’s this reminder that, you know, we can do something about that. That can work. It’s quite a big hole.
Penny
But also, I have a jumper that I bought, I think, when Mariella was about two. So, you know, ages ago. It has holes in it, and I’ve just patched it and darned it more and more and more. So now it kind of looks like it has chickenpox. But I love it.
Lise
That jumper, you’ve [unclear: “had a warn”].
Penny, this is how we change the world, isn’t it? We show people the joy. And in fact, I’m going to tell you another quick one. I can’t help it. I’ve got all these facts and I thought, there’s no way I can possibly get them all in the podcast. But now I’m on one, I’m determined. You talked about cotton and water consumption. It’s estimated that the fashion and textile sector consumes around 215 trillion litres of water a year, the equivalent of 86 million Olympic swimming pools. And one pair of jeans alone can require roughly 3,000 to 4,000 litres of water. To be honest, even 86 million Olympic swimming pools doesn’t really put it in my head. I don’t even know what one Olympic swimming pool is, let alone 86 million of them. But all of these facts, we can pull all of this out, and we know it’s having a global impact. We might not know that our returns are thrown away. I did always wonder about my Boden stuff, Penny. I did think, who irons and folds this? I do my best, but there’s no way I’m refolding it along the folds [unclear: “and pickers”].
Penny
I think some brands are definitely better than others, and some brands probably do make sure that they can resell and repackage them, and whatever. But certainly the fast fashion brands don’t, in the slightest.
Lise
And I know for my sister that was one of the biggest things. To big up my sister, she is very big into sustainability and things like that, and the environment. And in every brand that she’s worked in, she’s tried to look at the supply chain, the packaging, the returns, to do something better. And this goes back to what you said a minute ago. Just do something better. Just do something.
Penny
Just do something. Don’t throw away your entire wardrobe if it’s full of polyester. But next time you buy something, just buy it in a natural fabric. Little bit by little bit. And don’t feel so overwhelmed that you can’t do anything. And also teach our children. Make them not love Primark for one date. Or a tent just for one music festival that you then leave behind.
Lise
Oh my goodness, did you see that? My teenager went to Reading. Everything was left behind, the chairs, the blow-up beds, the tents. I went to Glastonbury in my day. There’s no way we’d have done that.
Penny
No.
Lise
But this is the impact of, again, almost another podcast, the impact of Chinese manufacturing. I’m going to use China, it might be the wrong thing. But when we were younger, another thing I’ve noticed, and it’s not clothes, if I had a packet of felt-tip pens or pencils, you really looked after those. You looked after them so closely, they were so important. And if we did a good job, we might get a sticker, and that sticker was really exciting. If it was a puffy, shiny sticker, it was… And now everything is available. Food in the supermarkets, nothing is seasonal. As children we used to go to France, and the most exciting thing was buying dark cooking chocolate or something, or cheap, cheap wine, obviously. But you know, things were more special, and we’ve lost that. I think listening to you speak today, Penny, it’s about doing a small thing, but finding the joy. And really enjoying the story and enjoying the process.
Penny
Yeah. And make it yours. Make it more personal. If you mend something, you have a connection to that, and you’re going to look after it more, because you spent two hours, or whatever it was, fixing the hole. So you’re going to wash it carefully, or not stick everything in the tumble dryer. It sort of permeates everything, which is why it can become a bit daunting. But it’s also easy to just choose one little something to do. You don’t have to do it all.
Lise
Yeah. I love that you say that. And it is the point about judgement, we don’t make anyone feel bad, and we’re all doing our best. And I’ve just realised, one of the things that I’ve forgiven myself about is what I do or don’t eat, or how I eat. I try and prioritise good nutrition, and it’s exactly the same. I try to prioritise what I consume. I don’t consume news, because it’s not news and it will fill my brain with rubbish. I try not to consume rubbish food. And yet news and rubbish food are all around us. Primark and the likes of Temu and Amazon, they’re all around us. We can’t feel bad that we are, literally, brainwashed all the time and fed that all of this is available to us, and fast fashion. And I’m definitely not a fast fashion girl, but more recently I’ve kind of been like, I want to zhuzh it up, I want to do whatever. But now I’m thinking about it, I want to zhuzh it up slowly. I want to enjoy it. I want to find a beautiful piece. And I want to redo the stuff that I’ve got already. That’s what you said. You’ve got skirts, and they can be used for a winter party.
Penny
Yeah, exactly. Or even just simple things like shortening something. I don’t know about you, but I have a whole lot of T-shirts that are sort of shapeless and big and baggy and look like nothing. But if you chop it so that it’s just sort of on your hips, suddenly it’s like, look at me, I’m all trendy.
Lise
Yeah. I love it. And that reminds me of Mariella’s shirt. She came down in a shirt, and it was, who was it, was it Ralph Lauren or something like that?
Penny
Yeah.
Lise
And it had no sleeves. And I said, “That’s an amazing shirt. Where was that from?” And she was like, “Because I’ve got an amazing mother.” You’d cut the sleeves off, you’d made it a summer top. And I imagine you’d pulled it in a bit at the same time.
Penny
Yeah, I had pulled it in a bit, but you don’t always have to, because it depends on the size of the shirt. And also I’ll get a shirt and add a skirt to it. So have the shirt as the top part and then add another skirt to it. It’s fun.
Lise
That’s the other thing. It is fun. And Penny, your clothes and your style and your love of life is fun. I think that you emanate fun.
I’d like to just address one last thing before we finish, and that’s that you’ve become a sort of, can I say, unlikely Instagram star.
Penny
Very unlikely.
Lise
To the point where, when recording the podcast, I was like, have you got a laptop? Have you got a team? Have you got tech? Have you got whatever?
Penny
No, I have my phone, Lise.
Lise
Which is perfect. But Penny, what happened there? Why did that happen? You’ve got bonkers numbers of followers. You’ve got a loyal following of women who adore watching you, and I am among them.
Penny
It just sort of built. It wasn’t anything that I particularly did, it just grew slowly, slowly. One of the things is that I posted every day. I did a thing years ago called Meet the Maker on Instagram. It’s a month-long thing, and they gave you prompts for what to say each day. The whole thing was that you must do it every day. And I got into the habit of just posting every day. Sometimes I really don’t feel like it, and sometimes I think, what am I going to say again? But I just always pitch up. And honestly, I love the community. They are so wonderful. And like you, I’ve had some horrible comments, and sometimes I think they’re just bots. I don’t know if they’re even real people. But boy, the people who follow me, and I find that word strange, but anyway, the people who follow me, they attack anyone who says anything to me. I don’t have to do anything. And it’s so sweet.
Lise
It’s so, God, doesn’t it boost you? And it’s funny, because that’s what it is, isn’t it? It’s a community. And you’re right, I always try not to use the word followers, because it sounds like I’m the Messiah and I have my followers. But it’s not about followers. It’s about you put yourself out there. This is me. And I think we both put ourselves out as we are.
Penny
Well, definitely. There’s not very much lighting or make-up. We’re not curating a different version of ourselves.
Lise
But it is a community.
Penny
It is.
Lise
And yours is an absolute joy to follow. RosaBlue, not Penny Menato, so RosaBlue on Instagram. And we’ll share all of that in the show notes, Penny.
And just one thing, if you could give people one small thing as well. We’re a community of midlife women here. I count midlife, I’ve decided that midlife runs from forty-five to eighty.
Penny
I like it.
Lise
The eighty-year-olds might say, “I’m not bloody midlife, I’ve earned much more than that.” But people say to me, “Well, I’m not midlife, I’m sixty.” And I’m like, well, in my book you are. And probably we are, now, with the advances in medicine, should we wish to take them. So Penny, if you were to leave people with one thing today about the joy that you have, what would it be? What would you say?
Penny
I would say, enjoy the little things that are right in front of you. Don’t go looking for, “When I have X, Y, Z.” No. I have a wonderful cup of tea. Outside it’s sunny and the trees are gorgeous. I just spoke to my daughter and she’s arrived safely and all is well with the world. Just the things that are right under our noses. We don’t spend enough time going, wow, it’s really lovely. I’m really lucky. And I am really lucky, and I know some people aren’t anywhere near as lucky, but there’s always something that you can kind of go, ah. I mean, nature is beautiful. So just look at nature and you’ll feel better.
Lise
Yeah, that’s true. Penny, thank you so much. You’re glorious. And by the way, just before we came on, I did see a picture of your daughter home with her cat. That was joy personified. So Mariella, if you’re listening, I’m glad you made it home and I can’t wait to see you on your next trip. But Penny, for now, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It has been a delight.
Penny
It’s been my pleasure.
Lise
As I knew it would be. Amongst my own anxiety of the world, just those everyday small things in front of us, and you are one of those joys for me. So thank you.
Penny
Bless you. Thank you.
Lise (48:04)
Well, that’s a wrap for Walking This Way, episode three, season two. And a huge thanks to Penny for joining me, and for once again making me think how I can get better at reusing and repurposing, and teaching me how to darn. I’m looking forward to that. I hope our chat has made you have a little bit of a think about how we can all make sure that we don’t contribute to those shocking statistics. How we can stop buying more than we need and dumping our old clothes in landfill.
And I’d love to know if you make your own clothes, or if you turn your old clothes into something new, or, hands up, a little bit like me, you’re guilty of falling into the fast fashion trap. So get in touch and let me know. You can leave me a voice message or drop me an email. All the links are in the show notes, as well as how to find Penny.
Now, before you go, one last thing. If anything Penny said got you thinking about someone, a friend, a sister, a woman at work who’s always mending her own jumpers, or someone that you know is a bit of a Primark fast fashion addict, please send her this episode. Forward it on WhatsApp, pop it in your stories, or tell them about it over a coffee. And I know I say this every week, but following the show wherever you listen really does make a difference. Two seconds, one tap. It’s how more women’s voices get heard. And that only happens when we back each other rather than hoping that somebody else will do it for us. So follow the show, tell a friend, pass it on.
Thank you. I’ll be back next week with another Out and About, and the week after with the lovely Jacqueline and Donna for a very special Ramble Worldwide takeover episode. Have I told you that I’m an ambassador? Anyway, more about that to come. So have a great week. Really take care of yourselves. Wrap up warm, and remember, I love you, rock stars.