105 | The Bar Under Their Palm: Federico Riezzo on London 90's Cocktail Golden Era and Why Service Beats Technical Skills

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, Chris Maffeo talks to Federico Riezzo, hospitality veteran and founder of Villa Mamo (a Villa in Tuscany), about London's cocktail renaissance and why human connection beats technical skills in bartending.

Federico shares his experience at legendary London cocktail bars like The Pharmacy, Lab, Sketch, and Sanderson Hotel during the cocktail revival of the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Learn how exceptional bartenders combined technical excellence with infectious energy to create welcoming environments that prioritize guest experience over complex mixology.

Chris and Federico explore how service philosophy transforms bartenders into "gatekeepers of sales" through trust-building techniques like spirit sampling and storytelling.

Discover practical hospitality strategies that create memorable bar experiences, generate customer loyalty, and drive organic word-of-mouth marketing in the cocktail industry.

Perfect for bartenders, bar managers, hospitality professionals, cocktail enthusiasts, and anyone interested in London's cocktail history and modern bar service excellence.

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Villa Mamo Overview

• 08:15 London Cocktail Renaissance Era

• 16:30 Service Philosophy vs Technical Skills

• 24:45 Trust-Building Through Sampling

• 32:20 Munich Bar Experience Example

• 37:46 Gatekeepers of Sales Concept

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Federico Riezzo

Co-founder | Villa Mamo Italia

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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This is Maffeo Drinks.
I remember the year on the year

2000, going to the Lab in Soho
and my head was just blown.

The quality of the drinks, the
quality of the staff, the design

of the bar itself.
But one thing that was an

absolute game changer for me?
In this episode, I left the

walls of the studio and went to
the border of Tuscany and Umbria

in in Italy to visit my good old
friend Federico Riezzo.

When I visited Federico, right
away we started having a

discussion about all things
cocktail.

We had a we had a drink down the
road in a local bar and we

started talking.
And then we said, hey, hang on a

second, let's stop here, let's
go home and let's record an

episode.
So this episode is a little bit

a different one.
In some bits.

It feels like we're going a bit
all over the place, but we

actually don't.
We have a pattern, we have a fil

rouge.
So we start from how it was to

work in the cocktail renaissance
of the late 90s in London.

He started at the Pharmacy, the
bar open in the 90s by them in

Hearst, back in Notting Hill in
London.

And he has been working at
Sketch, he's been working at the

Sanderson, he's been working in
many of the places that made the

history.
We talk about time that gave

birth to many of the modern
cocktails like the Breakfast

Martini, the Pornstar Martini,
the Penicillin.

The difference between the
approach that they were having

back in the 90s, but also what
is still valid.

There's a lot of.
The places are trying to become

best 50 and to me, you know the
best 50 really is when when you

give such a good customer
service.

I don't care if this is like
worst 50 or if it just made me

feel amazing.
We talk about bars that are

guest first versus techniques
first.

We talk about how can we scale
for brands, cocktail culture and

spirits culture in general.
We spoke about so many things

and I don't want to spoil the
the episode, so let's dive in

now.
Fedrico, thanks for having me

here in your beautiful Villa
Mamo, thank.

You.
Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks

Podcast tell us a little bit
about Villa Mamo and the concept

behind it.
Of course, so I left Italy in

96.
I was very young and moved to

London working in a very famous
London bar called the Pharmacy,

which was the very first art bar
was defined by Damien Hirst to

shrink at 25 years of history
within 22nd.

I moved to Ireland in 20/20/12.
I set up a a successful event

company.
I I was working with a globally

known Italian brand beer brand,
which Tony, thanks for only

being you.
That's how we met.

I also collaborated with for the
biggest Spirit company I was

designing cocktail list for some
of their brands whilst working

with my bar base cocktail based
event company.

Me and my ex business partner
Kieran always want to do

something back in Italy and my
wife is an interior designer.

She always wanted to renovate
the farmhouse in Italy.

With the help of our best
friends and business partner who

are based in America, we found
this place.

I've looked at about 20, 20
properties around Tuscany, but

you didn't get the, the wow
factor.

And I walked into this space and
I looked at the at the panorama.

I looked at the actual space
itself because there was such a

blend of old, the house was
built in 1786.

That was done in a very modern
style inside.

And I'm actually getting a bit
of goosebumps.

And it was like, Oh my God, it's
beautiful.

So we just went in without any
previous experience in

renovation, the help of some
local guys and a lot of

patients.
We renovated this property

Guilamo within 1213 months.
So was a really long project

because like everywhere the
workforce for like laboring job

is really disappearing.
The lot of young people don't

follow these crafts anymore.
And so there's been hard on that

sense, but we were lucky that
the house was incredible.

It was really well refined.
But there were a few things that

we didn't want to change.
So we changed 5 bathroom, add

the two new bathroom, all the
electrical solo, the plumbing

was done.
So I think we did an amazing

job.
Fantastic look, stunning.

It's it's an incredible place.
I want to have these

conversations because I'm when I
am long time friends. 2013 we

met in Dublin.
He was 2013.

He was 2013 at the Brewers
Conference in in Dublin.

You had bars, you worked in bars
and now you work in hospitality.

You had an event company event.
Company I was a horse in a very

big celebrity in Ireland and I'm
going to say who, who, who.

But yes, my family had a coffee
shop back in my little hometown.

So really, since I was 9 or 10
years old, I've always behind

the bar learning how to make
coffees sounds a bit of a

cliche, but really that that's
how I was going.

Like when I was finished school,
I used to work in pizzerias

because I did hotelier catering
school here in Italy and to work

as a chef in London.
But I was just I didn't find my

creative phone.
I love service too much.

Like the only reason why I'm
doing this because I love

service, the people interaction,
making guests happy.

My biggest goal is that when
people live like, oh, we met a

new friend that we're probably
going to see again, but we've

got a new friend of that human
connection.

And the bar is a great clues for
that energy because you get

people from all walks of life.
And but we are still in the same

place, so completely different.
A bunch of unknown people.

You kind of the the principal
magnetic force behind the

environment.
When you're really busy, you

don't have time to talk to all
the guests.

So what I would normally would
do, I would talk to a guest, but

if I have 2015 drinks to make
would be like, oh, you haven't

met my great friend here, Frank.
Frank here's here's Robert.

It's like, oh, well, you so they
can let them to themselves to

talk so you can talk with other
things every now and then.

How you guys know you also have
to be conscious at a bar to

work?
It's an operation, just talking

together.
The fantastic thing we do is

that I remember when we had a
honeymoon, not you and I, but

with me and my wife, you know,
like I called you and then you

hooked me up with people in LA,
Vegas, San Francisco, all over

the place, Melbourne.
It's one of those things that is

beautiful is the fact that
you're exchanging phone numbers

or nowadays Instagram accounts
and you have in the back of your

mind that you may not see that
person anymore, of course, but

at the same time there is this
bonding connection.

And also then you never know
when that's going to happen

again.
We met last time in 2018, but

we've been in touch ever since.
You know, we had events we put

on in in Finland, all over the
place, Barcelona and, and it is

that kind of not knowing, but at
the same time connecting.

That's in a nutshell, what I
call the drinks ecosystem and

their fidelity ecosystem that
actually connects all people

together in a way that makes
sense.

And that's ultimately the thing
like it has to make sense for

people, whether it's brands,
bars, hotels, houses like this

one, if it makes sense for
everyone, then it that's the win

win situation because we always
talk about successful brands,

successful companies.
That's ultimately for me.

It has to make sense for all
dark is involved.

You know when it does.
That's the win.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I can tell you something,

Chris, like, you know, we've
collaborated a lot, both

industrial drinks making
scenarios as well as talking

about, you know, how brands
development.

That's something that really
stand behind.

Of course, you have to have some
quality in your products, which

nowadays it's very hard to find,
you know, shitty products.

Can I say shitty?
Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.
But I do feel that people in the

front of ours, whether it's the
bartender or the waiter or the

restaurant manager, when you
establish a connection with the

with your guest, you can really,
you know, be the gatekeeper of

sale.
You can sell them everything.

If you have got their trust and
you know, they're trying to

screw them up trying to, you
know, they want a bottle of wine

for €30.
You want to sell them one for

150.
If you say like, look, there is

this one which is really good.
But if you have a quality

product that it makes sense for
the occasion, I'm actually

getting this, but I'm talking
about this.

I feel this is so true.
You know, you can virtually sell

them anything.
Again, he needs to be boundaries

of like what they're having,
what's the occasion, what are

they expectation for the nights
and so on.

But in that case, that's what I
love about cocktails because you

can make something bespoke to
them which is not on the list.

Create something bespoke for the
guy. 99% of the time I was like,

Oh my God, this is amazing.
Like you made it just for me.

And it's just something so
beautiful that imagine going to

a bar and you connect with the
bartender or the way there and

they do something just for you.
And you can use any brands you

want, any brands you have really
a do you think they're going to

be working with the drinks or
because you maybe you've got

some advantages, you know,
because sometimes there is, you

know, if I have to use one
bottle for the vote project from

the gin, if there are some, you
know, benefits, because

sometimes there are also, you
know, and again, going back to

this course that you're not
selling anything, but it's just

the low quality.
It's just very similarities

nowadays.
So again, going back to the

discourse that you really are
the gatekeeper for sale, but

also to give a great service.
Could you give in something

really bespoke to to guess
which?

I think it's amazing.
What was last time?

Well, for you, slightly
different because you know,

everybody knows you on on the
drink scene, but when was the

time you went on a place that
people didn't know you and they

gave you that kind of service?
But I mean, then again, like I

come from the beer world.
And then actually you were one

of the gatekeepers that left me
in the spirits side of things.

And I remember like a couple of
years ago, back to 2021 now it's

like 4 years ago, I didn't know
any single person in spirits

Zero, you know, So I came and,
and I think that's what I bring

and I try to contribute to the
industry is the fact that I am

an outsider and I'm bringing,
I'm not a spirit drinker since I

was 18, you know, like I
developed myself in the palette.

So I am challenging in the sense
of So what now you are telling

me all this nice beautiful story
about the brand, but you have

been working maybe for 10-15
years on that rent.

And I want to bring a different
perspective, OK.

Is this really different than
these other brands or or not?

You know, you started in London
in the heydays of cocktail

culture and what they called
the, the London cocktail

Renaissance or, and one of the
things that the Mafagini's

podcast tries to do is not
losing knowledge.

You know, that's the, the
history of the legacy of my

great grandfather, my
grandfather that sort of went

lost and I'm trying to keep
alive at least in memory.

And there is this thing and I
was reading books about it, this

beautiful from Robert Simonson
about this, the the fact that

the craft spirits culture in the
US and the Renaissance there

moved to London and it reignited
the London cocktail scene back

in what was it like 2000?
2000 like 9896 onward.

How?
Tell me we don't get into

nostalgic but.
What was, you know, to cry?

Well, to be honest on that, I
was a little bit late because as

I said, I arrived in London in
96 and I worked in the kitchen

for a few years.
Then in 99 I did a a cocktail

course with Baz Bazian was like
a bit of a legend Alva Torre

Calabrese d'adorelli.
They were like the still are the

big shots and obviously there
were the peoples at Lab like

Douglas Ankara and the people of
the match grew.

So why'd you say you were late?
Because you started.

Working.
I started in kitchen and then my

first cocktail job was 1999 for
a Richard Branson's place in

London.
It wasn't a great cocktail bar,

but then I'm also to the
pharmacy, which was really cool.

Big wigs were coming in and
great BJ's, great nights.

But it wasn't considered as one
of the greatest cocktail bar

back there.
But I remember the year, on the

year 2000, going to the Lab in
Soho, and my head was just

blown.
The quality of the drinks, the

quality of the stuff, the design
of the bar itself.

But one thing that was an
absolute game changer for me, it

was the speed of the bartenders,
the quality of the drinks.

And what I didn't see before for
that caliber of cocktail bar was

the energy and divided.
They're producing the bar stuff

like they, they had the whole
room under their palm.

They knew everybody was shouting
in the meantime, making surely

hundreds of drinks an hour, but
at a speed and they're all like

perfect.
So I was like, Oh my God.

To me, it was like the you call
the Apex or the like hospital

moment.
But I then moved to another few

other places I've worked in.
Momo had this little stain in

Sketch.
I would work with the Sanderson

for a couple of years.
Then I went traveling.

But it was a golden year again.
Chris, going back to what we

were saying yesterday or earlier
this morning.

It feels like we've been
together for a year, but it's

less than 24 hours.
I know.

But there's a lot of emphasis
now on the finished product.

When you go on cocktail bar,
it's a lot of, you know, the way

it was extracted, the road
about, you know, all these

techniques which are great.
I think you know, it's amazing.

But again, what I was saying
about the lab is just the vibe

you walked in.
I was like, hey guys, how you

doing?
And if you just felt like such a

friendly, lovely place.
But the quality of the drink was

stunning and it was all about
the boss and the customer

service.
And that's what I think it it's

a little bit lost at the moment.
There's a lot of the places are

trying to become best 50 and
when you give such a good

customer service that goes, I
don't care if this is like worst

50 or if it just made me feel
amazing.

They made a drink and they made
me smile and I remember my name

and then introduced me to
people.

This legacy of this feeling that
is a bit lost or maybe a little

diluted at the moment.
Sometimes it feels a bit

mechanic as well.
We were discussing yesterday

there you were working in
kitchens, bringing a different

kind of knowledge set now to, to
bartending.

Whenever I I've tasted your
drinks, there's always this kind

of like chef component on, on
it.

But what was it like?
I mean, from making food instead

of making drinks because yes.
So you were mentioning, for

example, of the fresh juices.
There was a bit of a rediscovery

of the basics, if I understood
correctly, 100.

Percent Yeah.
First of all, it was like

pivotal moment in my life was
blanching some vegetables and I

needed ice and I was just was
really hot in the kitchen was

like a crappy Italian
restaurant.

And so the head chef on my case,
on everybody's case.

And I remember walking to the
bar and I walked out, there was

a bartender flirted with two
beautiful girls.

And I just coming back and I saw
this like this head chef

screaming at me.
I was like, hold on a second

here, maybe there's a way out.
So I was like, OK, so I did

another couple of months and I
left the kitchen forever except

for a few events I did for my
own company.

To me, it's always been about
the ingredients.

I remember a few bars that were
they were buying syrups ready

made.
They're buying a lot of purest

ready made.
It was a lot of waste into that

packaging, the cost and the
personal footprint that you

would leave on the product.
When you make your own syrup,

you make your sugar syrup, you
had a bit of vanilla, you had a

bit of an orange skin or
whatever to give them an extra

flavor, you know?
So that was for me a great

transition.
So that was starting during

those years.
Correct.

So I always started doing like,
OK, I can do this myself, I can

do it better, you know.
So we were trying to play with

cordial, with liqueurs and
everything.

I brought that sense of cooking
and Italianess from the kitchen

to the bar.
We just still do nowadays buy

everything that I do for
Villamamal, the bread, cocktails

and all of the products that are
used.

There's a bit of intervention by
me, whether it's the gin and I

add something on or there is the
liquor thermic myself for the

cordials and syrups that I make
myself for the cocktails that we

give here, Villamamana for the.
What I feel at the moment is

that there is a bit of a gap
between that world of, let's

call it 50 best.
I don't want to pick on the 50

best, but just to get an idea of
the, the best bars in the world,

the prestige bars or I don't
want to call it.

And that place we went to down
the road, you know, yesterday

when we went to buy grocery, old
man playing cards, sipping

beers.
And there's a gap in the middle.

And I was discussing this with
Francois Monti in a previous

episode, the Ceria B, the, the,
the First Division, the second

division of of cocktail.
Because I think from when I try

to look at it from a drinks
ecosystem perspective, there is

a, the drinks and the
hospitality ecosystem, the two

sides of a coin.
We need to make that coin play

and, and pay for bills.
How do we scale that?

Because the brands need scale
because they cannot just

function on the on the top of
the top, but then they want to

ensure an experience down the
pyramid bottom.

Of the pyramid I think that at
least talking from a person that

was going to open a bar in
Ireland compared to the places

like the States to open a bar is
so much easier in the United

States than it is in places like
for the UK and Ireland.

You know, the last, especially
in Ireland, the last thing is so

difficult.
So it's either the pub that

makes cocktails or you get a
really good cocktail bar.

But the likes of Dublin, you can
only count, you know, 10 just

cocktail bar that they make
really good drinks.

You know, for, you know, big
drink in country, you know,

there is not that that space.
And I don't know if it's the

same in Italy, but again, as you
said, it's either you get.

Your coffee, your beer, your
pizza, your spritz, maybe your

Negroni all in one place or you
go to the really top end places.

So I don't know whether it's
maybe there is not enough of a

demand for that thing, I'm not
sure about.

I'll be able to answer you that.
I just think that also put more

because I mean you.
You mentioned the US and I mean

US like the shocking thing in
the US for any European or let's

say non American, is the fact
that in the US cocktails is

everywhere.
You know, you go to a very basic

place, there's margaritas,
there's cocktails and and it

goes back and one of the
previous episodes with Christa

Schubert with different CDs at
the elders and Garita CDs, the

Groni CDs, Manhattan CDs and
octal culture is widespread.

And it's made easy in the sense
that they don't move, do we not?

But I see it myself and, you
know, with friends that are

coming from a known, let's say
known spirits world, they are

sort of scared and they come for
dinner at some at my place and I

say, like, should we have a
cocktail?

You know, they look at me like
if I'm going to attack them, you

know, it's just like, no, no,
no, no.

Like we if I mentioned whiskey
is like no whiskey.

No, no, no, no.
You know, there is a bit of a

stigma on that or like, you
know, the, the, the, you know,

the Campari's of the world, you
know, they tried to ease up the

thing the gin and tonics try now
Paloma on on Seguil is trying to

build that.
But I feel there is still a gap

between the beautifully crafted
eyes that it costs one, you

know, bar to pop down the road
and you know, you get 3 three

ice cubes well.
It's a funny thing because

obviously when my friends were
coming over for dinner, I was

like, oh, Fred is going to make
up for happy days.

They were coming without
purpose.

What the spirits in general have
done is because first of all,

they brought down the the
alcoholic ABV, right?

So people would just enjoy like
we've done in Italy for I

wouldn't say centuries, but
right.

And also has he stopped the idea
of having a do you know what I

mean?
Felt like it's a boozy thing,

right.
So what I love about the Apple

sprit ideas is the fact that the
really broad conviviality, the

ability of a time, which is
amazing.

You know, the people go out and
they can have two spritz and

then go and do their thing.
It's not like a session.

And also what I love because I
think it was kind of the

catalyst to bring in bitter
flavor into the real of people's

taste because there was a lot of
sweet and sour drink, the

cosmopolitan, the mojito, the
daiquiri and so on.

There wasn't that many bitter
drinks.

I think what after all, after
all, spreads did brought

different facets of flavors to
the mass.

That's true.
Which actually you raise a good

point because it's actually why
I haven't entered, let's say,

the cocktail world earlier
because I, I don't like citrus.

I don't like this sweet and sour
kind of combinations.

So I'm more of a, you know, you
know, the Negroni, the birdier,

everybody knows it on the
podcast because I'm always

mentioning that.
But the that was the moment of

the Italian bartenders all
around the world that that's the

mission in life of bringing
bitterness to.

To but he, I, I feel that if you
look at, you know, unless you're

going to dance some scuffle, but
then if you look at the, the big

players of the year 2000 and so
on, the porn star martini,

they're always a lot.
Most of them were playing on

this sweet and sour balance.
If you look at the amount of

just bitters in general, the
last 15 years has been maybe 10

years, just ridiculous.
Like now I'm not trying to to

make it differentiation between
men and women, but now we can

see a lot of women drinking
Negronis, which I never served a

Negroni in my life to a lady if
I'm without.

Making, yeah, no, no, no.
And that's, but this is also

part of the ringing scale to
cocktail culture, to demystify

certain things.
Because one of the topics that

I'm always discussing is about
removing the demographics and

always putting the focus on the
occasion.

Like I'm always, I'm always
talking about the occasion

because for me it's a farm out
with my wife and these kind of

weather, you know, a 35 plus.
I'm going to go for the spritz.

I mean, yesterday we had a
spritz.

We we had it like 5050 Campari
Aperol.

I wouldn't have had the Negroni.
We were walking to the shop to

buy some grocery.
But at the same time, there is

this thing that we need to
acknowledge the fact that I

discussed a little bit for
brands trying to talk about Gen.

Z and younger legal drinking age
consumers.

Some of these people, they don't
have that pallet yet.

Well.
I think they don't have the

palette because again, going
back to the discourse words, we

started off the podcast, there
is a lack of trust from the

bartender to the consumer.
Your wife was like, what should

I drink?
Like I've got this bottle of

martini from the 1980s and I'm
either vermouth and tonic.

I feel like I'm about this
delicious, an absolute whopper

of a drink, you know, And I
think my wife always drink

vermouth and tonics low ABV.
You get the bitter flavors.

You go more deromatic than gin
and tonic.

It's a lot more into that and
she absolutely love it.

It's so refreshing and it's just
you know, it's fantastic.

But if I wouldn't have proposed
it to her and what I've done it

to plenty of her friend, plenty
of my friend that came over for

dinner instead of giving like a
gin and tonic, Coracoro spritz

or whatever, it's like try
vermouth and tonic.

They were like, wow.
And it's just establish a

relationship.
If you come to my bar like hey,

Fey.
Hi, Chris.

Fey, I feel like a gin and Tony,
Chris, can I you trust me for

just for one drink?
And if you don't like it, I'll

can I make you vermouth?
And Tony, it's beautiful fresh

orange or fresh, you know, plant
bit of oregano, you know, bit of

black pepper.
You tell the story like it's low

ability.
There is a lot of beautiful

flavors you can have probably an
extra 1 because if only like 16%

alcohol as opposed to 40 or 42
of kid.

You have that customer in your
hand because you're not trying

to monetize of him.
You want him to come back.

You wanted to tell your their
friends.

Oh, let's go and see.
Faith is at the bar because

that's you know what happened in
the bar.

There are worth.
I'm not the best mixology.

I'm probably one of the worst.
Well, I'm all right, I guess,

but what I love is the fact that
I've always established a

relationship with the guests,
whether I know them for years or

not, because they're coming into
my house.

When you walk through that door,
you're in my house and you're my

guest.
Eventually we'll create a bond.

You'll fulfill my necessity,
spending money.

I feel the urge to serve such a
privilege, to be able to tell

people and gain their trust.
Quite an achievement.

It's something that you said
that you know, that the you,

you, you talk about trust now.
And I think there there's an

element which is the, the lack
of knowledge from a consumer

perspective.
I'm not picking on them.

Just like dating.
What I feel like sending to you

is like there's a lack of
knowledge.

We see it with my friends and
itself in the past, you know,

Vermouth.
What is it?

You know, a bit whiskey.
What is a single malt?

What does it actually mean?
You know, I heard it many times,

but what does it actually mean?
Trust, because the the the fact

that, you know, I'm scared that
think it's more or less.

I know the price back bracket
there.

And if it starts to take this
crazy Scotch whiskey, I'm going

to go the rabbit hole and I
don't know what's happening.

And then the the other thing is
listening from a bartender

perspective, because we talk a
lot about, you know, speed, Dali

and I say, because I've, I've
tried bartending, but you don't

want to see me bartending.
I'm, I'm the chatty guy.

But then somebody has to make
the.

Drinks.
It's about being able to listen

because this too often when I go
out, and I go out quite quite

often, you know, the bartender
is assuming too quickly what I

like, you know, automatically
there's there's this kind of

like profiling.
OK, I'm Italian, so I like sort

of things.
I, you know, I said, I mentioned

whiskey and OK, I know what
you're going to do.

And I don't want to say 90%, but
probably like 70% of the time

they get it wrong, you know,
because automatically there is

this the citrusy notes that I
don't want, there is a cranberry

that I don't want.
There is always something that I

want.
And if they let me explain a

little bit better, what do I
like, then I would really trust

them because then it would be
like every time I go to this guy

or girl and I start to say, what
do I feel like they really nail

it.
And I if I and I'm part of the

indices, so I'm more forgiving.
But I can imagine a consumer,

the 99% of the time, I mean, if
I take Prague is going for a

beer and that day that it's in
the mood and I say, you know

what, I'm going to trust Chris
and I'm going to go for a

cocktail with him.
And if that bartender doesn't

deliver on the experience, it's
gone.

Yeah, of course it's gone.
It's gone.

He's going to try cocktails in
five years time again.

There's one.
Thing that I always done at the

bar, of course, depending by you
know, how peace we wear because

you can do this for everybody,
usually tend to do it in the

beginning of the night and it's
putting the ball in their court.

So come to the bar and you want
a gin and tonic and I don't know

you, I'm not going to say, do
you have a vermouth and tonic?

He was like, shut up.
Who are you?

Like, yeah, I just arrived here.
I want a gin and tonic.

Give me gin and tonic, of
course.

But what I'll do, I will leave
for like a bit of a journey.

So for example if you are X gene
consumer, but I can propose

something else like what other
sort of botanicals do you like?

What what other fruit do you
like?

Because you can start playing
the garnishes and take them

through a bit of journey with
trying different drinks again to

gain their trust.
Establish a relationship for a

possible returning customer X
returning income.

Something I always did is to
have a lot of show glasses at

bar and let them sample a bit of
an oxygen.

So let's say you have 1012 G in
a back bottle, 15 or whatever.

But to go for a certain type of
drink, very fresh and gives a

lot.
Why don't you try this one?

Just like to get like 5ML
doesn't cost anything to the bar

stuff, but what do you give
what?

Well, it does cost, but in the
bigger picture really gives

people the completely different
experience.

Like you're going to like from a
gene tonic to almost a gene

master class or a gene basin and
it just changes the the evening.

Looking at from the market
perspective, you can probably

sell the more expensive gene
there, but you're not going

through I want X gene that cost
€10 and you're like, oh, try

this gene and it's like €18.
No, you will lead them through

what you've done.
You have established trust

channel, you know, because
you're not you.

You don't want to read them off
in any way.

Of course you want them to spend
money.

Remember the experience.
I'm back what you do in terms of

the brand build bottom up.
I think, you know, there is a

big thing to say about bartender
server front of us because if

you have like I know this for a
fact because sometimes their

brand was like if you sell 20
cases of this wine or 20 cases

or 12 cases of this spiritual
minute trip in there, you know,

and within the three weeks
somebody would have sold

everything because you know,
that was a push that was

artificial.
But again, that kind of shows

you the power of our staff, the
bartenders, the US manager.

Feel free to challenge me on, on
that one.

Like I like to, to dissect a
spirit or any category.

Let's take vermouth as an
example or, or, or gin.

Like there is the, the wine
element, the botanical element.

And if you take gin on, on
vermouth and then on gin, the

results again, like the
botanical element mainly.

And then there's juniper.
You don't like juniper or you

like juniper is a juniper
forward or it isn't.

And if you dissect that, then
you can have that kind of

conversation with a guest
because then all of a sudden

it's like, Oh, I like vermouth.
And it's like, you know, what

does he like about vermouth?
Or does he like the wine?

Does it like the Botania?
Because if if then all of a

sudden is like, I usually drink
gin and Sonic and Negroni, maybe

it's going to be Botanigos.
But let me double check it.

And you ask another question and
then seems like you like

botanigos.
And that's like, oh, never

thought about it actually.
Yeah, it's true.

Then you can have that
conversation and it's leading

you somewhere now.
But there is too often this

assumptions which is leaning to
the other point, which is as

bartenders.
And again, I'm I don't want to

be convertible because I'm not
part of his right.

It's but it's like leaving a bit
out of on in the bubble.

And if you don't leave the
bubble, we cannot scale cocktail

culture.
What do you mean for the bubble?

The knowledge bubble, because if
I'm, if I'm talking to imagine

this example today, you know,
tonight we're going to go out

and it's me and you that are
quite familiar with spirits and

then our wives.
And then they are less familiar

than us.
And then if we start to play

cool and obviously you, your
knowledge is much more developed

than my knowledge, then all of a
sudden, like you lose them.

And I, when I go out with my
wife, for example, I go to the

best cocktail bars in Prague or
brothers lava high 5 the

bartender.
And then the moment they start

talking to my wife, they talk to
like they talk to me, you know,

this is citrusy forward.
This is like a spirit forward

cocktail.
And she looks at me like, what

the hell is this guy talking
about citrus forward?

What the all this terminology
can be like that, You know, only

like 1 to 5% of the people even
like a person working in

logistics in a spirits company
who will not understand what

you're talking about.
So if we don't leave the bubble

of terminology of super refined,
we never going to scale that,

which is what going back in full
circle to the to the spritz

example, that's what they
managed to do.

Absolutely.
And what I think goes back to

where I was saying it is also
because no matter how developed

or underdeveloped your taste
buds, are you still going to

taste something right.
So that's why it is not

available for all places called
some people, you know, they

really are high volume bars.
You can't just give to you know,

little sample to everybody.
But for example, let's say I

talk to you about 1 spirit with
all the complicated professional

terminology, you know, while I
talk to your wife and you have

to read the situation as well as
a bartender, you know, But in

that case, I put again, two
small sample and no matter what

I I can speak about an hour
about this brand and another

hour about the other brand.
You will try these things like,

oh, I much prefer a compared to
B And if I'll make a drink with

a well, how is it?
You can't say, oh, it's bad

because he kind of chosen it.
So you'd be like, oh, it's

amazing.
Thank you very much.

So already the do you see what I
mean?

The experience has changed.
The the moment that you've

created this cohesion, this
narrative between you and the

guest, it's already like I'm
going to have a great night

here.
Then I'm going to be like, I'm

going to sell whatever you want
and making you very happy.

Of course I'm not when I say
whatever you want, I'm not going

to sell.
I'm not going to say the polar

bear or any of you know, like,
you know, like, you know, pay

through so very expensive stuff,
but we're going to go on a

journey where you're going to
discover new things that you

will like because we've been
working alongside each other.

We'll go for a little journey.
And Chris, sometimes I had

people come in at six, you know,
when the bar would open and

leaving at 11, but that's a five
hours thing.

Like obviously a lot of glasses
of water in between.

But to spend some serious money
there.

And you know, there was like,
that was a great night.

Like I've learned I almost like
made my own drinks at the end of

it all, you know, Mandarin juice
with a squeeze of these and

that.
So I think there's a lot to say

going back to these courses for
bartenders.

It's just to establish this
connection.

And you know, if you've got to
back up good quality brands

behind you, sales are really,
really.

Clearly visible there.
And you made, you made me think

like actually with my wife when
when we went to Munich for one

night a few years ago, because I
was having the last round of an

interview for a big company,
didn't get the job by the way.

And I went to Munich.
We studied the German marketing.

We did an interview.
So I did some bars and so on.

So we go to a restaurant for
lunch, then we go for coffee at

Bachentrale.
It was in a place in Munich.

It was just a small cafe with it
was winter January and it's no

outside.
Dark grey, yeah.

Crazy weather and then we go in
and there's, there's one of

these curtains not to get the,
the cool, the, you know, the,

the cold get in.
We didn't know what was inside,

but we go there to have a coffee
literally and then go to you

know, and we enter and if this
is like 2:00 PM Saturday, you

know, they open the door and
then it's crazy inside.

Now that packed 70s and 80s like
Donna Teller it like this, you

know, loud 70s and 80s Italian
music, Rafael, like a you know,

that kind of vibe loud.
There's nowhere to see it.

You know, we are trying to find
big place.

No, it's it's as more.
I mean, it's 1/4 of of this and

then we try to make our way to
the bar to literally have two

espressos and, and a short guy
comes in with an iPad or

whatever and it's like guys 2
spritz and we, we look at each

other and in a blink of a
second, you know, the loud music

pumping, you look around and
there's everybody having spritz

and who goes and can fight.
Yeah.

You know, like so we we have.
Said no, there was no way you

would say that.
So we're just like in, in the

moment of a second, like we get
2 spritzes, you know, also like

talking about service and so on.
It gets crazy.

You know, we start kind of like
dancing at 3:00 PM, you know,

totally sober, you know, started
dancing and we meet an older

couple, German couple.
We start buying rounds to each

other.
We, we leave the place from We

left at 8:00 PM.
That was what experience can

give you for sure and service.
Because if if we had been

waiting 20 minutes for death
spirits, that would be the last

one we would have gone if the
music was not the right one, if

other people were not consuming
what we were consuming and all

this kind of thing.
That's all for today.

I hope you enjoyed this episode
with Federico Riezzo.

You might have felt that we went
a little bit off pissed.

Sometimes, but we managed to
keep each other track.

He's been working in many of the
places that made the history.

He has been working in
Australia, in New York.

He was the Co founder of an
event agency back in Dublin.

In this episode as well as in
the others, there's so much

knowledge that I always prepare
a deep dive analysis that I

share by e-mail.
So you can get that at

maffeodrinks.com.
There are free and paid plans

monthly and yearly.
If you can think of a couple of

people that can benefit from
this episode, please share it

with them in video on Spotify
and YouTube and in audio on

Apple Podcasts and all the other
platforms.

I'm sure that you have many
friends that either didn't know

about the 90s in London and want
to know more or they were

actually part of it and they
will enjoy going down memory

lane and refresh some of their
knowledge.

That's all for today, and
remember that brands are built

bottom up.