BONUS: 11/10/24 Panel 3 - Navigating Regulations & Shaping Your Vision

During the Self Build & Renovation Show on the 11th and 12th of October 2024, we ran a series of panel interview shows with expert guests to give their take on a particular topic based on their expertise and organisation.

Panel 3 discussed how we could/should navigate the challenges of regulations, and how your project's vision can be shaped.

We were joined by Mark Stevenson (Elsworth Projects), Yen Dai (Eco Energy Environment), and Chris Oram (ICF Supplies)

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These episodes will investigate various subjects in more detail, with expert guests, and previewing upcoming shows and events to help you with your potential or current self build and renovation projects.

project manager and an

expert for an sbrc I sit

down the self builders

answering their questions

and also deliver lots of

courses to help educate the

sector and anyone want to

build their home as well as

that I'm chair of the

national customer

self-build association I

run a business called

ellsworth projects that

build houses so we're out

there in the mood and the

weather you know doing it

to get these projects built

And I also work with

businesses and I'm an exec director,

helping them steer through

the self-build industry.

Because you used to be the

managing director of a

company that did the whole gambit,

didn't you basically?

Yes, yeah,

I was managing director of

Potter until about a year

ago and then stepped into

my own business.

And that gave me a real good,

broad experience base.

We would work with customers

from designing their house

and getting planning

permission right through to

manufacturing and building

their structures and

project managing their builds.

So planning it and getting it done.

Yeah, everything, really.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Of course, Potten, you mentioned,

we were in the Potten house

with that amazing cinema room in there.

Could have just stayed in there,

I must be honest.

That was wicked.

Thank you, Mike.

Welcome.

Next up, only doing it in this order,

so don't feel left out.

We've got Chris Orrell.

Introduce yourself.

Hello, I'm Chris Warren.

I work for ICF supplies.

We're technical sales.

I'm in technical sales.

We supply the Nigeria ICF blocks.

That's insulated concrete formwork.

It's a polystyrene block

that you build like Lego.

And when you've got the

shape that you want,

you pour it with concrete.

So it offers

um something that's very

thermally effective and uh

sound uh is very very quiet

and strong and easy at

airtime so it's uh um

serves the role of a very

uh efficient um wall system

yeah to to to make it in

the first place giving you

the form and and then to

provide the insulation

afterwards I mean it just I

looked at that when we went

walking around I think it featured on our

it's either the welcome one,

I think it was the first

proper roaming camera.

And I was just like, Oh, my God,

that's incredible.

Sometimes the simplest things.

Indeed, I've been in, in the ICF,

we're working with ICF for

about twelve years now.

And from the moment I

understood it right at the beginning,

and I got the feedback from customers,

absolutely delighted customers,

I thought,

why isn't every house being moved out?

Or even many, many more.

And it's been growing over the years.

But I would have personally

expected it to have grown a

lot more because of the positive nature,

the positive feedback that

I get from people.

I can almost imagine your

biggest challenge is

unfounded cynicism because

you look at it and go, surely not.

But as soon as it's explained to me,

I was like, oh, my God.

That is amazing.

So you've got to allow them to,

or they've got to allow

themselves to listen to

what it is that you do.

I think we've had more

success from self builders

because they take time.

Um,

they're usually going to live in these

houses and so they want

something that's proven and

And,

and something that I can be involved

with.

So, you know, what often they,

they will build themselves.

So it's something that they

can build themselves,

but also they want the best.

And when they talk to people, um,

the benefits that offers, um,

really offers them the best

outcome and the end product.

Yeah.

So, um, with self builders, it's, um, it's,

uh, become very, very popular.

I can believe it.

I definitely can believe it.

It was impressive.

And last but by absolutely no means least,

someone had to be, yeah.

Yen Dai from Eco Energy Environment.

That's right.

Introduce.

Yen Dai,

Founding Director of Eco-Engine

Environment.

Basically,

I've been involved in the

industry of solar, battery storage,

electric vehicle chargers.

I've been involved for

nearly twenty years.

And when I was involved from

financing side originally,

and then I got involved and

when I decided to set up my own company,

which was nearly fourteen years ago,

I identified the niche

market of the self-build sector.

And I've been concentrating

on that ever since,

although we now also have a

commercial arm.

But this has always been my

heartfelt area that I've really enjoyed.

um because every project is

different um and that's and

to see something from a

hole in the ground to going

back two years three years

later to see it finally

landscaped and finally take

some really nice photos uh

is always a joy it's it's

completely different to the

rest of the industry that

retrofits on an existing

property going down a

suburban street and every

house is the same yeah yeah

um the self-built sector is

completely different

and having a bit of a European background.

In the UK, as we were saying earlier on,

it's a niche market, it's growing,

and there's loads of scope,

but in comparison to the rest of Europe,

where it's quite the norm

to do your own self-build.

What was the stat you said?

Seventy-something percent in Austria,

for example.

Yes.

The homes are still built.

Yeah.

Well, my my wife is actually Austrian.

All right.

So is that where your original.

Well, I'm actually half French.

And that's another story,

because historically,

the French always rented

their property whilst they were working,

putting money to one side

to buy land and build their

retirement home.

And they would literally

spend their summer holidays

building bit by bit.

That was true self.

Yeah.

Like over ten, fifteen, twenty years.

And then when they retire,

they built their retirement house.

Whereas in Austria,

it is categorically you want to buy.

So in my particular case,

it's literally one of my sister in laws.

My father in law just gave her a field.

um and said there you go

build your own house at the

bottom of the field um so

it's a very it's an

interesting sector but the

market in the uk it's

always been quite niche um

but for all the economic

reasons there's a lot of

good reasons why we should

be doing far more

self-build in this in this

country not only in terms

of building what we

actually want to live in

with to a quality that we would expect um

And so there's a big appeal to do it here.

The unfortunate problem in

this country is the cost of

land in comparison to parts of Europe.

How much, and I don't know,

I'm throwing this out and

completely wrong, potentially,

very probably,

is that how much is that

the price of land being too

high for people to be able to do it?

Because I'm assuming that's

the way that you were saying it.

um is that so much of it was

not actually self-built it

was always building

commercially so someone

would buy land to go and

build five houses and flog

them off for as much money

as they can make has that I

mean you can't knock it but

it has that maybe I'm going

to probably come to you

mark on this one has that

impacted unfairly on the

self-built market in its truest form

Yeah,

I think everybody faces the problem

of affordability in the

housing market because of

what houses are worth when

they're finished.

And that's the essential

ingredient when you're

valuing a piece of land.

So it's what you call a

residual land valuation.

You deduct the cost of

building and what's left is

the land value.

So actually the land value

is not the issue.

It's how much these houses

are worth when they're finished.

And that applies to the

whole of the market.

where it's been unfair to

self-builders is the

planning policy landscape

so lots of self-builders

that come onto my course

for the centre would be

saying I can't find a plot

and unfortunately in

planning policy terms the

the development land that

they'd be considering would

be within settlements or

connected to sustainable

settlement settlements but

not outside the settlement

boundary whereas your big

volume house builders can

build on the can extend a

village or a town

because they're helping to

meet the housing crisis and

provide homes and therefore

the council give consents

for that so they have the

ability to build volume in

places that self-builders

can't reach and therefore

we're focused on to the six

percent of land that's been

developed in the the uk uh

and we're all on top of

each other kind of fighting

it out in those policies

and that makes it tough

Well, I think, Chris, turning to you,

and then you might fend

this off into someone else to answer,

feel free to,

but one of the big things

that was coming out that

possibly does still help

self-building is that

someone buys a plot of land with already,

I forget what you call it,

when all the services are

either planned or in place

ready and the planning's there,

but you actually buy it

more as more land than you

might need and you build

what you want but instead

of doing that let's build

another three houses is

that you sell off and maybe

you they're not everything

in place yet you get that

sorted and you're now able

to sell off two three plots

of land with all of the the

permission with all of the

services in place is that a

sort of a healthy route

healthier route to go well

it's uh in an ideal world

it it might be the trouble

is it's a small island

And there's a lot of people

on this small island and

it's supply and demand.

It's basic economics.

And someone once said,

if you can afford a plot,

you wouldn't want to live there.

And if you want to live there,

you can't afford it.

And it's a scenario that keeps coming up.

You know,

I was talking to a couple this morning.

And they said, oh yeah, early days,

early days.

We haven't even got a plot yet.

And I said, well, when you get a plot,

you're halfway there

because it's such a

monumental achievement to

actually get a building plot.

Now,

there's no simple way around it

because evil of money comes into play.

And that's the basic...

defining reason why you

can't... We can't be available.

But I think you can.

Oh, really?

I don't think it's as

difficult as people are thinking.

I'm interested, yeah.

And I'm sure you're not in

agreement with this as well.

I think it's been recognised

by governments already.

Back in two thousand and sixteen,

we had the right to build

legislation which obligated

councils to maintain a

register of demand in their

local authority areas.

so anyone wanted to build

their own house should be

signing up to these

registers and the council

once they have a defined

demand have to then have

regards to that demand when

they're issuing their

planning policies so they

should be making

opportunities to meet the

number of people within a

certain period of time

called the base period to

meet that demand what's

happened more recently

is we've had the leveling up

bill that's now become an act,

and that's tightened these rules.

So if the council, say,

had five hundred people on

the register and they're

only delivering three hundred consents,

those consents have to be

specifically for custom and self-built,

not just any old house.

And if they don't meet those numbers,

they accrue and they add up.

So the weight of obligation

on the councils to meet the

demand is increasing year on year.

So we now find that the

councils in their planning

strategies are making land available,

making it part of larger estates maybe,

where there's a consent for

volume house building,

or there could be exception

site policies.

And there's all sorts of

different tactics they're using.

but we're having positive

interventions but what we

need is people to sign up

to the registers to put

their mark down as a vote

well and then we get the

support and I've never

heard of this I mean but

then I guess why why would

I but are you signing up to

be doing it within a finite

period of time or are you

saying I intend to so I

better put my name down

Yeah, so it's an intention,

I want to build a house in this area.

And you can cancel to a timescale,

I guess.

Well,

the base period is three years from

the date you put yourself

down the base period that

the council should be

meeting that demand is

within three years.

So that but it doesn't mean

if the end of that you haven't found one,

you give up and go away and don't

I guess I'm thinking the

other way is that if they

suddenly turn around after

a year for our arguments

they can go yep we've got

something to go oh crap I'm

not quite ready no well I

don't think it works that

way the what the council

can do is if you've got

something you might get a

consent that will be a

consent that's counted

against the numbers of the demand

right so yeah you've you've

been satisfied and gone

away and hopefully that the

council should have enough

policy in place to meet say

the five hundred people

that have signed up yeah

but what we are seeing this

is where it gets a bit

difficult I don't think all

the councils have been as

supportive as they possibly

can because why would they

they don't want loads of

people on the register and

loads of demands to meet

but the consequence of them not doing it

is that when developers like

me that are going out there

working with landowners to

get consent and councils turn us down,

we can then appeal.

And then we win the appeals

because then the inspectors are saying,

well, hang on a minute,

you're not meeting your demand.

So that's why it's getting easier.

There are tens of thousands

of these plots in the

pipeline coming down into

the marketplace.

So there's plenty

opportunity for public to

do what they need to do to

influence the outcome.

Okay.

Are these plots being made available?

Are they being created?

I work with developers all the time,

the large volume house builders,

to explain how to move their land forward,

how to make the legislation,

how to make it accessible.

These pieces of land that

developers are working on,

the rules of how these are

made available for

self-builders are under a

legal agreement called Section

So they're obligated to market them,

they're obligated to sell them.

There is a cascade if they can't sell them,

what happens to them?

But in terms of making them saleable,

they have to be affordable.

It has to be the price that

someone can pay.

It has to be evidence and

things like that.

You can't go out there and

ask twice the amount of

money because people aren't

being satisfied with plots.

So I think the market's

changing massively.

And even though we've had a

change of government,

you know, Angela Rainer,

in meetings that Max has had with her,

her language is every leave

accounts to get housing

because we need housing.

So when customer self body

is firmly part of the mix moving forward.

Yeah,

we know one of these places are busy

as a result of that.

We're expecting some changes

later this year, aren't we?

from the government yeah

they'll continue to to

tweak the system to try and

make sure that uh we've got

we don't know what those

changes are going to be yes

no we don't that's the

problem amazingly

successful um but what we

do know is that uh you know

it's a big political agenda

um and uh it's not going

away it's only going to get

worse and worse and until

we build the numbers the

price of houses keep going

up and it's not affordable

yeah do you sit there encouraged

by not,

I don't mean what you're hearing now,

because this is obviously

you hear it every single day.

Is there enough in there to be encouraged?

You know,

you've gone into this with a

niche from countries where

it's not niche.

Yeah.

I think it is encouraging,

but I think there's still a

long way to go.

I think the political will

still needs to shift

majorly into a higher gear.

The local councils,

whatever comes as a central

edict from central

government still needs to

really be understood by the

individual councils.

This is where we see immense frustration.

So we got one of the walking talkies.

Sorry about that.

So I think there's still a long way to go,

basically.

It is encouraging.

Encouraging, yes.

It is encouraging.

That's the big one, isn't it?

That's it.

I know that I'm going to

wrestle this away because I

feel that we could go down

rabbit holes here if we're not careful.

Let me get it back on to,

we obviously have been

provided with a few questions,

one of which we already got

rid of after speaking

before and to keep

ourselves out of trouble, didn't we?

But how do each of you help

clients turn their vision into reality?

So from your perspective,

there's one up there as well.

So,

we've unclogged their headphones and

we're getting feedback on them.

um the it just goes to show

it's live that's all we

were doing is proving that

we're live okay uh right

sorry where's I going right

so each of you from

different angles will have

I mean I love hearing you

say because I've heard it

quite a lot that there are

you you get to see the same

people come back and

they're at different stages

on this dream let's put it

that way it's a dream that

they're trying to fulfill

which I've had so many

people in your positions

tell me it's wonderful when

you suddenly have them

emotionally telling you

we're now here we're now

there we've done that um

how do each of you in your

roles I'm going to start

this end this time uh how

what do you do to help turn

their dreams into reality

Well,

probably the first thing is to try

and understand what their dream is,

you know,

and very much in terms of the

design of their property,

what they envisage,

where they're going to have slate,

where they're going to have

an agricultural looking racing barn roof.

Certainly from our perspective,

it is really trying to

understand what they envisage.

And then the subtle bit is

then trying to translate

and explain to them what

options there are and how

close those options fit

with what they were hoping to achieve.

and budgets surely and then

yes and then the budgets

come in into it and then

particularly from our

perspective um we also then

have to generally explain

to them that it's not um

how big a roof or how much

uh space because they may

have a paddock a field whatever

It's not how much space for the solar,

it's not how deep their pockets are,

but to then unfortunately

tell them that it's

actually a third entity called the DNO,

which is a subdivision of

the National Grid,

who actually has the final

decision as to how big a

solar array they can actually have.

which comes as a bit of a

shock to just about most people.

So you have to navigate.

And of course, this is where step by step.

So having understood what

they're trying to achieve,

trying to understand

whether they want to be

how independent of the grid,

how energy efficient to

what can we achieve with

their plot and then having

to then wrestle and work

out what we actually will

be allowed to install and

putting it putting it all together.

It's something that we see

more in the self-build

sector than in the retrofit market.

And there's a reason for that.

And that's the thresholds

that the DNO permit.

So many people don't never

hear about the DNO because

their roof size,

they will never actually

get a system big enough to

tip the threshold.

Having said that,

that is actually now changing.

And that has to do with the power output.

The increase in the panels

has changed dramatically

over the last five years, five,

six years.

So if you took an average

suburban road with a sort

of nineteen thirties semi-detached,

your average,

you were probably getting about eight,

ten panels on it.

But five or six years ago,

your average panel was two

hundred and fifty watts.

which meant you were just

coming up or just on the

three point six eight threshold.

which is when you then have

to start talking to the DNO.

So in the past, historically,

it really didn't matter

because the panel output

was at two hundred and fifty.

Now our panels are four

hundred and fifty straight

up to the threshold where

we're already peaking.

So we're already wanting to

put a bigger inverter over

the size of three point six eight,

which so this is something

that is actually changing

in the retrofit market.

But for the self-build sector,

we are fortunate in so much

that our roofs are bigger

um which is why so for

companies like myself we

we've always been engaged

with the dno for years

because we're in that

fortunate position where

we're designing and

installing solar systems

that are over and above

this dno threshold

There's a lot more to it than people.

So in other words, the final one,

because I'm constantly told

I've got five minutes left,

but is that it probably again,

like so many things we're

finding is that they should

be speaking to you a lot

earlier in the project than

they probably realize.

Absolutely.

As soon as they even before

they've got planning,

Because even in terms of the planning,

it's not only about the

design and the layout of

the roof or the garage or

the garden office,

but it's also going back on

that is to realistically,

will they have an opportunity?

Should they be upgrading to three phase?

or are we engaging the DNO

on a single phase?

So as early as possible.

Yeah, no, exactly.

And that's what we hear a lot.

Whereas I guess, Chris,

yours has always been right

at the beginning.

Ideally, yes.

If we can meet them at the

show and they've just got planning or,

sorry,

they've got their plot and

they're thinking about what

they're going to do and you

can talk to them about what is possible,

then they can, if they can imagine it,

they can build it with ICF.

ICF is very adaptable and

it's something that they can,

very readily do themselves

if they want to do it

themselves they've got an

eye for detail um then

they're they're perfectly

qualified so am I right in

so where the question was

how can you help your

clients turn to reality

yours is that flexibility

is what's jumping out at me

yeah absolutely yes and uh

because you can adapt it,

you can change it on site, well, to plans,

but you can design it to

suit whatever you need.

And they can look at whatever,

what has already been built,

and see examples, and then pick the best,

what suits them.

And they can do it.

So there's nothing more...

makes people more happy than

to be building themselves.

Yeah, yeah.

If they're that way.

Yeah.

But no, I agree.

Mark,

I guess you're going to have to pick

an area of all the bits

that you're involved to be able to say,

how do you help turn

people's dreams into reality?

Yeah,

I think the obvious question people

would expect me to answer would be,

I build houses, fine.

But actually, increasingly,

I don't think it's about

building houses where I help the most.

Self-building is a complex industry,

but actually none of it is

that complex that

self-builders can't get

their head around it.

It's a little bit like

looking at a motorway

sideways and trying to pick

out the makes of car and colours of car.

You just can't see where you're heading.

So what I do with people,

I start right at the

beginning and make sure the

DNA of their project is deliverable.

So I look at things like my

business partner's a planner,

so we do the planning appraisals.

We then do things like get

the budget right,

make sure the design fits

the family brief,

paint the picture of the

journey that's particular to them.

make the whole thing about them,

get the DNA right,

and then it's deliverable.

If you don't get that right,

you're heading down the wrong direction.

You do the wrong things.

You procure the wrong people

at the wrong time.

And even though they make

the great solutions,

if it's the wrong fit,

it just doesn't work for them.

So you've got to make their

projects about them and

enable them to unlock it in

the self-build world.

And I think I just pull back

the veil on what seems to

be a mystery really isn't.

The centre is the hub of

where I do that by getting

people down here and

talking to them and going

through the education and

looking at their projects

right at that DNA stage.

including presumably the

longevity and what I mean

by that is not the

longevity in the

sustainability sense but as

in this is what I need now

but in the future what

happens if one of us become

less mobile for example is

an obvious one that jumps

out at me with some amazing

uh solutions I've seen here

do you get them to try and

if they're thinking you

they tell you this is our

forever home you've got to

help them open their mind

to what else should be in

there in the future I think

some of the mistakes people

make are they jump to the

solutions too quickly absolutely don't do

that that's detail let that

come out later let's get

the brief right so what do

you want now how do you

want to live how do you

want to have breakfast how

do you want to interact

with your family and yeah

ask that question about how

does this have house grow

with you over time that

might mean that you need to

put a little bit more money

in your budget to make

provisions for a future lift

Well, that's not a lot of money.

That might be a couple of

thousand pounds to be able

to take a little area of the floor away.

And then you can spend the forty,

fifty thousand pounds later

when you need it.

Yes.

So it's future proofing,

just being sensible.

And actually,

when you start getting down

to the nub of what you're after,

that's why self-build is so popular.

Because when you buy a house

that's on the open market,

you don't have that flexibility.

You get given what they've already built.

and it's not your dream, it's expensive.

Which would be the most

economical bill that they

could get away with.

And we were talking about

housing regs are the least

you can get away with, are basically that,

aren't they?

Whereas the idea of a self-push, you go,

no, I want this.

Yeah.

Whether that's the luxuries

of what I want to do,

whether it's the energy, whether it's,

you know, whatever, whatever,

I want all of this.

Genuinely, guys,

I could keep talking forever with you,

but I'm going to finish now.

I'm going to come to you first, Chris.

Why should someone come and see you,

and collectively within your

organization at the show

what would they come and

find out and I'm also going

to point out that you are

in the build it theater two

o'clock tomorrow afternoon

is it two o'clock yeah okay

battle of the building

systems but to come and

speak to you normally why

should they come and speak

to you what can they find out

ICF is a fantastic product.

So many benefits.

And it's something that

people can genuinely build themselves.

So it just,

it will help them achieve a dream.

And just come and see us and

we can tell you the benefits.

And they need,

places like this are perfect.

People need to expand their mind

ask lots of questions of

everybody and then they can

narrow it down to whatever

suits them uh might not be

our product but it'd be

something that suits them

so just and that for me is

a big one there's a reason

why there's over two

hundred companies in the

trade village because there

are that many different

things to consider

different options within it

and I think you've hit the

nail on the head go and

find out the options some

of them you will not even be

aware of some of them don't

prejudge go and have those

conversations yeah and take

it that way yeah I'll jump

back to you but why should

I be first of all what are

you up to you are you've

already done today eleven

forty five and you've also

got another one tomorrow

yes so I do a taster on how

to find an appraised building block

which is the start of the journey,

clearly.

But I think you could come

and talk to me about that.

But I think what you should

do is come down and ask

that daft question that you

don't ask anybody else.

and feel comfortable that as

an independent expert,

I'll be able to navigate

that landscape that you

might find just a little bit complicated.

So it's a really safe place

to come and just go, my problem is,

how do I answer this?

And I can guarantee I'll be

able to get you to somebody

in this centre that will be

able to fill the detail in

be it a supplier or a

professional or someone like that,

but it starts by being just

a little bit brave,

coming in the centre and

asking the daft question.

Nothing stupid to ask.

There's nothing stupid.

Nothing stupid.

Everybody's asked that before.

And it must be brilliant for

you here to have all of

this resource of all of

these experts and companies

and solutions that you can go,

come with me.

One-stop shop.

It's amazing.

It's the place to be.

Absolutely.

It is.

I didn't realise I was

interested in self-build

until I started walking

around here and going, oh,

this is amazing.

Yen, yourself,

why should someone come and speak to you?

Before I say that,

you are speaking tomorrow

in the Sustainability

Theatre at ten thirty,

just in case you didn't know.

Everyone else so that they

know you're going to be there.

And just following on from

there and linking it, I mean,

that presentation is generic,

it's impartial and it's

about the basic design elements.

And I think it's because it's impartial.

It's not about my business, it's about

the key elements in the

design to maximise your investment.

And I think that echoes what

this venue here at the

National Self-Build

Renovation Centre is a

unique venue in the country.

And it is there,

and it's there to come and ask questions.

No question is stupid.

If you don't particularly

work in our trade,

how would you know the

question or the answer?

So it's the opportunity to come.

And why come and speak to us?

Well,

because this is what we've specialised.

Although, of course,

we're an installation

company and we quite openly

declare that we make our

money from our installations.

But the ethos and the motto

of the company is

consultancy first and foremost.

If you don't know what you

want or you don't know what

the options are,

you need to have the

opportunity for someone to

explain what is available

for you especially as a

final comment is that it's

become a lot more combined

in other areas I know

you're saying it's the

solar plus the battery uh

storage plus the ev now all

of that stuff and it just

logically instead of it being

separate things as it all

comes under the same

solution that's very much

so we we are as an industry

moving away or multiple

Industries have effectively

come together it's now not

selling a one particular

product it's actually a

general service it's a

whole ecosystem yeah

including the tariffs,

the variable new tariffs

that the utility companies are offering.

So all in all it's a much

bigger picture and at least

here people can get the

opportunity to actually

understand how these

different elements

integrate because that's

the way you're actually

going to maximize your

investment and get the

biggest benefit overall.

Apologies, guys,

that I didn't get to go

into some of the other

questions I would like to have gone in,

but hopefully it was a bit

of a moose boosh for you

all from these experts.

In essence,

what I'm really able to show

you there is that this is

exactly why you come down here.

There are so many subjects we could have,

should have gone into there.

I just had them for, you know,

thirty minutes maximum to

go into a few areas.

And it's deliberately with a

mixed bag of expertises.

Gentlemen,

thank you so much for joining us.

That was really,

really insightful and really useful.

Get down here and see them tomorrow.

Remember,

you can jump online to the event

page and you can actually

get free tickets and free parking,

everything.

Get down here.

Great vibe.

So many people to see,

as has been shown by this.

But from the three guests, myself,

thank you very much for joining us.

And that was our final panel

session for today.

We've got one more room that

is kind of a mini room

because we'll be wrapping up.

But remember, they're all here,

even if the show's not.

See you soon.

Cheers.