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The Home of Self Build, Custom Build & Renovation
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These episodes will investigate various subjects in more detail, with expert guests, and previewing upcoming shows and events to help you with your potential or current self build and renovation projects.
project manager and an
expert for an sbrc I sit
down the self builders
answering their questions
and also deliver lots of
courses to help educate the
sector and anyone want to
build their home as well as
that I'm chair of the
national customer
self-build association I
run a business called
ellsworth projects that
build houses so we're out
there in the mood and the
weather you know doing it
to get these projects built
And I also work with
businesses and I'm an exec director,
helping them steer through
the self-build industry.
Because you used to be the
managing director of a
company that did the whole gambit,
didn't you basically?
Yes, yeah,
I was managing director of
Potter until about a year
ago and then stepped into
my own business.
And that gave me a real good,
broad experience base.
We would work with customers
from designing their house
and getting planning
permission right through to
manufacturing and building
their structures and
project managing their builds.
So planning it and getting it done.
Yeah, everything, really.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Of course, Potten, you mentioned,
we were in the Potten house
with that amazing cinema room in there.
Could have just stayed in there,
I must be honest.
That was wicked.
Thank you, Mike.
Welcome.
Next up, only doing it in this order,
so don't feel left out.
We've got Chris Orrell.
Introduce yourself.
Hello, I'm Chris Warren.
I work for ICF supplies.
We're technical sales.
I'm in technical sales.
We supply the Nigeria ICF blocks.
That's insulated concrete formwork.
It's a polystyrene block
that you build like Lego.
And when you've got the
shape that you want,
you pour it with concrete.
So it offers
um something that's very
thermally effective and uh
sound uh is very very quiet
and strong and easy at
airtime so it's uh um
serves the role of a very
uh efficient um wall system
yeah to to to make it in
the first place giving you
the form and and then to
provide the insulation
afterwards I mean it just I
looked at that when we went
walking around I think it featured on our
it's either the welcome one,
I think it was the first
proper roaming camera.
And I was just like, Oh, my God,
that's incredible.
Sometimes the simplest things.
Indeed, I've been in, in the ICF,
we're working with ICF for
about twelve years now.
And from the moment I
understood it right at the beginning,
and I got the feedback from customers,
absolutely delighted customers,
I thought,
why isn't every house being moved out?
Or even many, many more.
And it's been growing over the years.
But I would have personally
expected it to have grown a
lot more because of the positive nature,
the positive feedback that
I get from people.
I can almost imagine your
biggest challenge is
unfounded cynicism because
you look at it and go, surely not.
But as soon as it's explained to me,
I was like, oh, my God.
That is amazing.
So you've got to allow them to,
or they've got to allow
themselves to listen to
what it is that you do.
I think we've had more
success from self builders
because they take time.
Um,
they're usually going to live in these
houses and so they want
something that's proven and
And,
and something that I can be involved
with.
So, you know, what often they,
they will build themselves.
So it's something that they
can build themselves,
but also they want the best.
And when they talk to people, um,
the benefits that offers, um,
really offers them the best
outcome and the end product.
Yeah.
So, um, with self builders, it's, um, it's,
uh, become very, very popular.
I can believe it.
I definitely can believe it.
It was impressive.
And last but by absolutely no means least,
someone had to be, yeah.
Yen Dai from Eco Energy Environment.
That's right.
Introduce.
Yen Dai,
Founding Director of Eco-Engine
Environment.
Basically,
I've been involved in the
industry of solar, battery storage,
electric vehicle chargers.
I've been involved for
nearly twenty years.
And when I was involved from
financing side originally,
and then I got involved and
when I decided to set up my own company,
which was nearly fourteen years ago,
I identified the niche
market of the self-build sector.
And I've been concentrating
on that ever since,
although we now also have a
commercial arm.
But this has always been my
heartfelt area that I've really enjoyed.
um because every project is
different um and that's and
to see something from a
hole in the ground to going
back two years three years
later to see it finally
landscaped and finally take
some really nice photos uh
is always a joy it's it's
completely different to the
rest of the industry that
retrofits on an existing
property going down a
suburban street and every
house is the same yeah yeah
um the self-built sector is
completely different
and having a bit of a European background.
In the UK, as we were saying earlier on,
it's a niche market, it's growing,
and there's loads of scope,
but in comparison to the rest of Europe,
where it's quite the norm
to do your own self-build.
What was the stat you said?
Seventy-something percent in Austria,
for example.
Yes.
The homes are still built.
Yeah.
Well, my my wife is actually Austrian.
All right.
So is that where your original.
Well, I'm actually half French.
And that's another story,
because historically,
the French always rented
their property whilst they were working,
putting money to one side
to buy land and build their
retirement home.
And they would literally
spend their summer holidays
building bit by bit.
That was true self.
Yeah.
Like over ten, fifteen, twenty years.
And then when they retire,
they built their retirement house.
Whereas in Austria,
it is categorically you want to buy.
So in my particular case,
it's literally one of my sister in laws.
My father in law just gave her a field.
um and said there you go
build your own house at the
bottom of the field um so
it's a very it's an
interesting sector but the
market in the uk it's
always been quite niche um
but for all the economic
reasons there's a lot of
good reasons why we should
be doing far more
self-build in this in this
country not only in terms
of building what we
actually want to live in
with to a quality that we would expect um
And so there's a big appeal to do it here.
The unfortunate problem in
this country is the cost of
land in comparison to parts of Europe.
How much, and I don't know,
I'm throwing this out and
completely wrong, potentially,
very probably,
is that how much is that
the price of land being too
high for people to be able to do it?
Because I'm assuming that's
the way that you were saying it.
um is that so much of it was
not actually self-built it
was always building
commercially so someone
would buy land to go and
build five houses and flog
them off for as much money
as they can make has that I
mean you can't knock it but
it has that maybe I'm going
to probably come to you
mark on this one has that
impacted unfairly on the
self-built market in its truest form
Yeah,
I think everybody faces the problem
of affordability in the
housing market because of
what houses are worth when
they're finished.
And that's the essential
ingredient when you're
valuing a piece of land.
So it's what you call a
residual land valuation.
You deduct the cost of
building and what's left is
the land value.
So actually the land value
is not the issue.
It's how much these houses
are worth when they're finished.
And that applies to the
whole of the market.
where it's been unfair to
self-builders is the
planning policy landscape
so lots of self-builders
that come onto my course
for the centre would be
saying I can't find a plot
and unfortunately in
planning policy terms the
the development land that
they'd be considering would
be within settlements or
connected to sustainable
settlement settlements but
not outside the settlement
boundary whereas your big
volume house builders can
build on the can extend a
village or a town
because they're helping to
meet the housing crisis and
provide homes and therefore
the council give consents
for that so they have the
ability to build volume in
places that self-builders
can't reach and therefore
we're focused on to the six
percent of land that's been
developed in the the uk uh
and we're all on top of
each other kind of fighting
it out in those policies
and that makes it tough
Well, I think, Chris, turning to you,
and then you might fend
this off into someone else to answer,
feel free to,
but one of the big things
that was coming out that
possibly does still help
self-building is that
someone buys a plot of land with already,
I forget what you call it,
when all the services are
either planned or in place
ready and the planning's there,
but you actually buy it
more as more land than you
might need and you build
what you want but instead
of doing that let's build
another three houses is
that you sell off and maybe
you they're not everything
in place yet you get that
sorted and you're now able
to sell off two three plots
of land with all of the the
permission with all of the
services in place is that a
sort of a healthy route
healthier route to go well
it's uh in an ideal world
it it might be the trouble
is it's a small island
And there's a lot of people
on this small island and
it's supply and demand.
It's basic economics.
And someone once said,
if you can afford a plot,
you wouldn't want to live there.
And if you want to live there,
you can't afford it.
And it's a scenario that keeps coming up.
You know,
I was talking to a couple this morning.
And they said, oh yeah, early days,
early days.
We haven't even got a plot yet.
And I said, well, when you get a plot,
you're halfway there
because it's such a
monumental achievement to
actually get a building plot.
Now,
there's no simple way around it
because evil of money comes into play.
And that's the basic...
defining reason why you
can't... We can't be available.
But I think you can.
Oh, really?
I don't think it's as
difficult as people are thinking.
I'm interested, yeah.
And I'm sure you're not in
agreement with this as well.
I think it's been recognised
by governments already.
Back in two thousand and sixteen,
we had the right to build
legislation which obligated
councils to maintain a
register of demand in their
local authority areas.
so anyone wanted to build
their own house should be
signing up to these
registers and the council
once they have a defined
demand have to then have
regards to that demand when
they're issuing their
planning policies so they
should be making
opportunities to meet the
number of people within a
certain period of time
called the base period to
meet that demand what's
happened more recently
is we've had the leveling up
bill that's now become an act,
and that's tightened these rules.
So if the council, say,
had five hundred people on
the register and they're
only delivering three hundred consents,
those consents have to be
specifically for custom and self-built,
not just any old house.
And if they don't meet those numbers,
they accrue and they add up.
So the weight of obligation
on the councils to meet the
demand is increasing year on year.
So we now find that the
councils in their planning
strategies are making land available,
making it part of larger estates maybe,
where there's a consent for
volume house building,
or there could be exception
site policies.
And there's all sorts of
different tactics they're using.
but we're having positive
interventions but what we
need is people to sign up
to the registers to put
their mark down as a vote
well and then we get the
support and I've never
heard of this I mean but
then I guess why why would
I but are you signing up to
be doing it within a finite
period of time or are you
saying I intend to so I
better put my name down
Yeah, so it's an intention,
I want to build a house in this area.
And you can cancel to a timescale,
I guess.
Well,
the base period is three years from
the date you put yourself
down the base period that
the council should be
meeting that demand is
within three years.
So that but it doesn't mean
if the end of that you haven't found one,
you give up and go away and don't
I guess I'm thinking the
other way is that if they
suddenly turn around after
a year for our arguments
they can go yep we've got
something to go oh crap I'm
not quite ready no well I
don't think it works that
way the what the council
can do is if you've got
something you might get a
consent that will be a
consent that's counted
against the numbers of the demand
right so yeah you've you've
been satisfied and gone
away and hopefully that the
council should have enough
policy in place to meet say
the five hundred people
that have signed up yeah
but what we are seeing this
is where it gets a bit
difficult I don't think all
the councils have been as
supportive as they possibly
can because why would they
they don't want loads of
people on the register and
loads of demands to meet
but the consequence of them not doing it
is that when developers like
me that are going out there
working with landowners to
get consent and councils turn us down,
we can then appeal.
And then we win the appeals
because then the inspectors are saying,
well, hang on a minute,
you're not meeting your demand.
So that's why it's getting easier.
There are tens of thousands
of these plots in the
pipeline coming down into
the marketplace.
So there's plenty
opportunity for public to
do what they need to do to
influence the outcome.
Okay.
Are these plots being made available?
Are they being created?
I work with developers all the time,
the large volume house builders,
to explain how to move their land forward,
how to make the legislation,
how to make it accessible.
These pieces of land that
developers are working on,
the rules of how these are
made available for
self-builders are under a
legal agreement called Section
So they're obligated to market them,
they're obligated to sell them.
There is a cascade if they can't sell them,
what happens to them?
But in terms of making them saleable,
they have to be affordable.
It has to be the price that
someone can pay.
It has to be evidence and
things like that.
You can't go out there and
ask twice the amount of
money because people aren't
being satisfied with plots.
So I think the market's
changing massively.
And even though we've had a
change of government,
you know, Angela Rainer,
in meetings that Max has had with her,
her language is every leave
accounts to get housing
because we need housing.
So when customer self body
is firmly part of the mix moving forward.
Yeah,
we know one of these places are busy
as a result of that.
We're expecting some changes
later this year, aren't we?
from the government yeah
they'll continue to to
tweak the system to try and
make sure that uh we've got
we don't know what those
changes are going to be yes
no we don't that's the
problem amazingly
successful um but what we
do know is that uh you know
it's a big political agenda
um and uh it's not going
away it's only going to get
worse and worse and until
we build the numbers the
price of houses keep going
up and it's not affordable
yeah do you sit there encouraged
by not,
I don't mean what you're hearing now,
because this is obviously
you hear it every single day.
Is there enough in there to be encouraged?
You know,
you've gone into this with a
niche from countries where
it's not niche.
Yeah.
I think it is encouraging,
but I think there's still a
long way to go.
I think the political will
still needs to shift
majorly into a higher gear.
The local councils,
whatever comes as a central
edict from central
government still needs to
really be understood by the
individual councils.
This is where we see immense frustration.
So we got one of the walking talkies.
Sorry about that.
So I think there's still a long way to go,
basically.
It is encouraging.
Encouraging, yes.
It is encouraging.
That's the big one, isn't it?
That's it.
I know that I'm going to
wrestle this away because I
feel that we could go down
rabbit holes here if we're not careful.
Let me get it back on to,
we obviously have been
provided with a few questions,
one of which we already got
rid of after speaking
before and to keep
ourselves out of trouble, didn't we?
But how do each of you help
clients turn their vision into reality?
So from your perspective,
there's one up there as well.
So,
we've unclogged their headphones and
we're getting feedback on them.
um the it just goes to show
it's live that's all we
were doing is proving that
we're live okay uh right
sorry where's I going right
so each of you from
different angles will have
I mean I love hearing you
say because I've heard it
quite a lot that there are
you you get to see the same
people come back and
they're at different stages
on this dream let's put it
that way it's a dream that
they're trying to fulfill
which I've had so many
people in your positions
tell me it's wonderful when
you suddenly have them
emotionally telling you
we're now here we're now
there we've done that um
how do each of you in your
roles I'm going to start
this end this time uh how
what do you do to help turn
their dreams into reality
Well,
probably the first thing is to try
and understand what their dream is,
you know,
and very much in terms of the
design of their property,
what they envisage,
where they're going to have slate,
where they're going to have
an agricultural looking racing barn roof.
Certainly from our perspective,
it is really trying to
understand what they envisage.
And then the subtle bit is
then trying to translate
and explain to them what
options there are and how
close those options fit
with what they were hoping to achieve.
and budgets surely and then
yes and then the budgets
come in into it and then
particularly from our
perspective um we also then
have to generally explain
to them that it's not um
how big a roof or how much
uh space because they may
have a paddock a field whatever
It's not how much space for the solar,
it's not how deep their pockets are,
but to then unfortunately
tell them that it's
actually a third entity called the DNO,
which is a subdivision of
the National Grid,
who actually has the final
decision as to how big a
solar array they can actually have.
which comes as a bit of a
shock to just about most people.
So you have to navigate.
And of course, this is where step by step.
So having understood what
they're trying to achieve,
trying to understand
whether they want to be
how independent of the grid,
how energy efficient to
what can we achieve with
their plot and then having
to then wrestle and work
out what we actually will
be allowed to install and
putting it putting it all together.
It's something that we see
more in the self-build
sector than in the retrofit market.
And there's a reason for that.
And that's the thresholds
that the DNO permit.
So many people don't never
hear about the DNO because
their roof size,
they will never actually
get a system big enough to
tip the threshold.
Having said that,
that is actually now changing.
And that has to do with the power output.
The increase in the panels
has changed dramatically
over the last five years, five,
six years.
So if you took an average
suburban road with a sort
of nineteen thirties semi-detached,
your average,
you were probably getting about eight,
ten panels on it.
But five or six years ago,
your average panel was two
hundred and fifty watts.
which meant you were just
coming up or just on the
three point six eight threshold.
which is when you then have
to start talking to the DNO.
So in the past, historically,
it really didn't matter
because the panel output
was at two hundred and fifty.
Now our panels are four
hundred and fifty straight
up to the threshold where
we're already peaking.
So we're already wanting to
put a bigger inverter over
the size of three point six eight,
which so this is something
that is actually changing
in the retrofit market.
But for the self-build sector,
we are fortunate in so much
that our roofs are bigger
um which is why so for
companies like myself we
we've always been engaged
with the dno for years
because we're in that
fortunate position where
we're designing and
installing solar systems
that are over and above
this dno threshold
There's a lot more to it than people.
So in other words, the final one,
because I'm constantly told
I've got five minutes left,
but is that it probably again,
like so many things we're
finding is that they should
be speaking to you a lot
earlier in the project than
they probably realize.
Absolutely.
As soon as they even before
they've got planning,
Because even in terms of the planning,
it's not only about the
design and the layout of
the roof or the garage or
the garden office,
but it's also going back on
that is to realistically,
will they have an opportunity?
Should they be upgrading to three phase?
or are we engaging the DNO
on a single phase?
So as early as possible.
Yeah, no, exactly.
And that's what we hear a lot.
Whereas I guess, Chris,
yours has always been right
at the beginning.
Ideally, yes.
If we can meet them at the
show and they've just got planning or,
sorry,
they've got their plot and
they're thinking about what
they're going to do and you
can talk to them about what is possible,
then they can, if they can imagine it,
they can build it with ICF.
ICF is very adaptable and
it's something that they can,
very readily do themselves
if they want to do it
themselves they've got an
eye for detail um then
they're they're perfectly
qualified so am I right in
so where the question was
how can you help your
clients turn to reality
yours is that flexibility
is what's jumping out at me
yeah absolutely yes and uh
because you can adapt it,
you can change it on site, well, to plans,
but you can design it to
suit whatever you need.
And they can look at whatever,
what has already been built,
and see examples, and then pick the best,
what suits them.
And they can do it.
So there's nothing more...
makes people more happy than
to be building themselves.
Yeah, yeah.
If they're that way.
Yeah.
But no, I agree.
Mark,
I guess you're going to have to pick
an area of all the bits
that you're involved to be able to say,
how do you help turn
people's dreams into reality?
Yeah,
I think the obvious question people
would expect me to answer would be,
I build houses, fine.
But actually, increasingly,
I don't think it's about
building houses where I help the most.
Self-building is a complex industry,
but actually none of it is
that complex that
self-builders can't get
their head around it.
It's a little bit like
looking at a motorway
sideways and trying to pick
out the makes of car and colours of car.
You just can't see where you're heading.
So what I do with people,
I start right at the
beginning and make sure the
DNA of their project is deliverable.
So I look at things like my
business partner's a planner,
so we do the planning appraisals.
We then do things like get
the budget right,
make sure the design fits
the family brief,
paint the picture of the
journey that's particular to them.
make the whole thing about them,
get the DNA right,
and then it's deliverable.
If you don't get that right,
you're heading down the wrong direction.
You do the wrong things.
You procure the wrong people
at the wrong time.
And even though they make
the great solutions,
if it's the wrong fit,
it just doesn't work for them.
So you've got to make their
projects about them and
enable them to unlock it in
the self-build world.
And I think I just pull back
the veil on what seems to
be a mystery really isn't.
The centre is the hub of
where I do that by getting
people down here and
talking to them and going
through the education and
looking at their projects
right at that DNA stage.
including presumably the
longevity and what I mean
by that is not the
longevity in the
sustainability sense but as
in this is what I need now
but in the future what
happens if one of us become
less mobile for example is
an obvious one that jumps
out at me with some amazing
uh solutions I've seen here
do you get them to try and
if they're thinking you
they tell you this is our
forever home you've got to
help them open their mind
to what else should be in
there in the future I think
some of the mistakes people
make are they jump to the
solutions too quickly absolutely don't do
that that's detail let that
come out later let's get
the brief right so what do
you want now how do you
want to live how do you
want to have breakfast how
do you want to interact
with your family and yeah
ask that question about how
does this have house grow
with you over time that
might mean that you need to
put a little bit more money
in your budget to make
provisions for a future lift
Well, that's not a lot of money.
That might be a couple of
thousand pounds to be able
to take a little area of the floor away.
And then you can spend the forty,
fifty thousand pounds later
when you need it.
Yes.
So it's future proofing,
just being sensible.
And actually,
when you start getting down
to the nub of what you're after,
that's why self-build is so popular.
Because when you buy a house
that's on the open market,
you don't have that flexibility.
You get given what they've already built.
and it's not your dream, it's expensive.
Which would be the most
economical bill that they
could get away with.
And we were talking about
housing regs are the least
you can get away with, are basically that,
aren't they?
Whereas the idea of a self-push, you go,
no, I want this.
Yeah.
Whether that's the luxuries
of what I want to do,
whether it's the energy, whether it's,
you know, whatever, whatever,
I want all of this.
Genuinely, guys,
I could keep talking forever with you,
but I'm going to finish now.
I'm going to come to you first, Chris.
Why should someone come and see you,
and collectively within your
organization at the show
what would they come and
find out and I'm also going
to point out that you are
in the build it theater two
o'clock tomorrow afternoon
is it two o'clock yeah okay
battle of the building
systems but to come and
speak to you normally why
should they come and speak
to you what can they find out
ICF is a fantastic product.
So many benefits.
And it's something that
people can genuinely build themselves.
So it just,
it will help them achieve a dream.
And just come and see us and
we can tell you the benefits.
And they need,
places like this are perfect.
People need to expand their mind
ask lots of questions of
everybody and then they can
narrow it down to whatever
suits them uh might not be
our product but it'd be
something that suits them
so just and that for me is
a big one there's a reason
why there's over two
hundred companies in the
trade village because there
are that many different
things to consider
different options within it
and I think you've hit the
nail on the head go and
find out the options some
of them you will not even be
aware of some of them don't
prejudge go and have those
conversations yeah and take
it that way yeah I'll jump
back to you but why should
I be first of all what are
you up to you are you've
already done today eleven
forty five and you've also
got another one tomorrow
yes so I do a taster on how
to find an appraised building block
which is the start of the journey,
clearly.
But I think you could come
and talk to me about that.
But I think what you should
do is come down and ask
that daft question that you
don't ask anybody else.
and feel comfortable that as
an independent expert,
I'll be able to navigate
that landscape that you
might find just a little bit complicated.
So it's a really safe place
to come and just go, my problem is,
how do I answer this?
And I can guarantee I'll be
able to get you to somebody
in this centre that will be
able to fill the detail in
be it a supplier or a
professional or someone like that,
but it starts by being just
a little bit brave,
coming in the centre and
asking the daft question.
Nothing stupid to ask.
There's nothing stupid.
Nothing stupid.
Everybody's asked that before.
And it must be brilliant for
you here to have all of
this resource of all of
these experts and companies
and solutions that you can go,
come with me.
One-stop shop.
It's amazing.
It's the place to be.
Absolutely.
It is.
I didn't realise I was
interested in self-build
until I started walking
around here and going, oh,
this is amazing.
Yen, yourself,
why should someone come and speak to you?
Before I say that,
you are speaking tomorrow
in the Sustainability
Theatre at ten thirty,
just in case you didn't know.
Everyone else so that they
know you're going to be there.
And just following on from
there and linking it, I mean,
that presentation is generic,
it's impartial and it's
about the basic design elements.
And I think it's because it's impartial.
It's not about my business, it's about
the key elements in the
design to maximise your investment.
And I think that echoes what
this venue here at the
National Self-Build
Renovation Centre is a
unique venue in the country.
And it is there,
and it's there to come and ask questions.
No question is stupid.
If you don't particularly
work in our trade,
how would you know the
question or the answer?
So it's the opportunity to come.
And why come and speak to us?
Well,
because this is what we've specialised.
Although, of course,
we're an installation
company and we quite openly
declare that we make our
money from our installations.
But the ethos and the motto
of the company is
consultancy first and foremost.
If you don't know what you
want or you don't know what
the options are,
you need to have the
opportunity for someone to
explain what is available
for you especially as a
final comment is that it's
become a lot more combined
in other areas I know
you're saying it's the
solar plus the battery uh
storage plus the ev now all
of that stuff and it just
logically instead of it being
separate things as it all
comes under the same
solution that's very much
so we we are as an industry
moving away or multiple
Industries have effectively
come together it's now not
selling a one particular
product it's actually a
general service it's a
whole ecosystem yeah
including the tariffs,
the variable new tariffs
that the utility companies are offering.
So all in all it's a much
bigger picture and at least
here people can get the
opportunity to actually
understand how these
different elements
integrate because that's
the way you're actually
going to maximize your
investment and get the
biggest benefit overall.
Apologies, guys,
that I didn't get to go
into some of the other
questions I would like to have gone in,
but hopefully it was a bit
of a moose boosh for you
all from these experts.
In essence,
what I'm really able to show
you there is that this is
exactly why you come down here.
There are so many subjects we could have,
should have gone into there.
I just had them for, you know,
thirty minutes maximum to
go into a few areas.
And it's deliberately with a
mixed bag of expertises.
Gentlemen,
thank you so much for joining us.
That was really,
really insightful and really useful.
Get down here and see them tomorrow.
Remember,
you can jump online to the event
page and you can actually
get free tickets and free parking,
everything.
Get down here.
Great vibe.
So many people to see,
as has been shown by this.
But from the three guests, myself,
thank you very much for joining us.
And that was our final panel
session for today.
We've got one more room that
is kind of a mini room
because we'll be wrapping up.
But remember, they're all here,
even if the show's not.
See you soon.
Cheers.