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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
You know that moment when
a company outgrows the
thing that it's known
for, but the market hasn't
quite caught up yet?
Like when you still think
of them for that one
product, and there are a
ton of examples of this.
Amazon is more than
an online retailer.
Apple offers more
than iPhones.
Well, first they started
with laptops or computers.
So what I'm saying is it's
very natural for brands to
expand product offerings,
and chances are, as a
PMM, you're going to be
part of that initiative.
But sometimes launching
something new can feel
more like an add-on, not
like the next chapter.
Today's episode is about how
to make your brand known for
more than the flagship product
you started with, and we're
unpacking it through a case
study that did exactly that.
I'm so excited to welcome
Wade Burrell to the show.
Wade has spent the last 15
years at the intersection
of product, go-to-market,
and growth With stops at
Worldpay, Square, and Intuit
Mailchimp, where he led SMS
expansion across 37 countries.
But what makes his story
so interesting is this: He
helped take a company known
for one thing and start to
redefine what it could become,
turning SMS from a standalone
feature into a company-wide
strategic priority.
And now today, he's at Zapier
leading product marketing for
some of the most important
infrastructure in the AI era.
Wade, welcome to the show.
Hey, El.
I'm so excited to be here
and, and thanks so much
for having me, truly.
Yes, I know we've been looking
forward to this chat for
a while, at least I have.
Uh,
No question about it.
so let's dive right in.
So you're currently at
Zapier today, and we'll
come back to that in a bit.
But today's case study
is really about your
time from Mailchimp.
So give us a quick summary
of what Mailchimp offers.
I feel like I remember
the first time I used it
a very, very, very long
time ago at the start of my
marketing career, but it's
so much more than that now.
So help get me and the
listeners up to speed.
Absolutely.
And I think that's, uh, that's
the biggest thing and then I
think a big, uh, opportunity
for us to dig in here as we're
talking through this because
I think most people know
Mailchimp for email, right?
It's where a lot of marketers
got their start, right?
And that reputation
was, uh, well-earned.
I, uh, when I started in,
I g- uh, actually I should
say by the time I started
in 2017, it was already
the largest email marketing
platform in the world.
12 million-plus businesses
were customers already.
and then over the next
eight-plus years, so my time
there, there was this broader
vision that, uh, that came
to light really becoming this
all-in-one marketing platform.
Intuit acquired Mailchimp
in 2021, and that only
accelerated that push, and
I think the, the market
still had this fixed idea
on what Mailchimp was.
It was an email company,
and that gap between what
the company was building
towards and how the market
still saw it, that was the
tension that we were always,
always working against.
So now, however, um, and we'll
get into this, but Mailchimp
offers SMS and messaging
services and features and
functionality, and it's this
product, that specific product
feature set that helped
bridge the gap between M-
what Mailchimp was and what
Mailchimp wanted to become.
Got it.
Okay.
That's a really helpful
history of, Mailchimp,
and it's a nice segue
into where we're going
with this conversation
for the case study.
So, uh, the first segment of
the show is the case study
segment, and we're talking
all about how you helped the
company make that big change
in its, in its narrative.
So tell me more about what
was going on at Mailchimp
when all of this got started.
Well, at the time, you know,
Mailchimp, and I mentioned
this just, uh, a second ago,
but Mailchimp dominated email.
Like they were, they had
12 million-plus businesses.
They were the name
in email marketing.
And I, I think what we saw
was, while email marketing
is not in any way, shape, or
form dead or anything like
that, they understood that
the market and individuals
and companies and businesses
and their customers explicitly
were engaging or needed
additional ways to engage
with those businesses,
or those businesses need
additional ways to engage
with those customers, right?
And so this is when
SMS came into light.
It launched in early
2023, as a next growth
channel for Mailchimp.
but what we did was,
uh, we launched it
as a standalone MVP.
It truly was this, this kind
of like, you could say it's
an add-on, I would say wasn't
even baked into the product to
the way it should have been.
But it's, allowed us to
really kinda learn into
things, and that positioning
when we first got started.
was it's the number one email
marketing platform, which
was a, a verified claim that
we were able to get, and
then now with SMS, right?
So it got the idea across
that we are expanding from a
brand perspective into more
features and functionality
and more channels.
But it, it really, if
you look at that and read
that tagline back or that
positioning statement, the
number one email marketing
platform now with SMS, it's
simply a tack on, right?
You're just tacking it
on to the, uh, to what's,
what everyone knows
you ab- uh, for now.
So was an interesting
time to say the least.
Yeah.
And that sounds like a very
reasonable change, right?
And I could totally see,
the rationale behind, "Hey,
we're noticing something
different in what our
customers are doing and what
our customers need, so let's
try to offer that as soon
as possible, and then we can
figure out the story later."
Exactly.
think it's a super
common, you know,
situation that marketers,
particularly product
marketers, are stuck in.
So I guess, what was the real
challenge then that you were
facing when you decided that
like, "Okay, this is sounding
like an add-on. let's try
to make it not an add-on"?
Uh, it's such a good point
and it's such a good like,
it was a really defining
moment from, from a product
marketing perspective, but
also from like our product
team's perspective and also
the company itself, I'll say.
Not to like boast myself up
too much, but it was truly
a defining moment of we had
this product SMS, right?
But we, we, we needed to
position it in a way that
could actually compete
against any other type
of, of tool, whether it
be, you know, Twilio or
Attentive or any other
kind of SMS native tools.
We know, we knew we couldn't
outright win against those
based on just like straight
up features because we
were, you know, a couple
years behind, uh, just to be
completely honest with you.
but the idea came to mind of
how do we actually win, right?
What do we, what
do, what can we do?
What can we actually, uh,
hang our hat on from a product
perspective, but also a brand
perspective that we could,
in the market, differentiate
ourselves a little bit, right?
So we had to, there was a
lot of back and forth with
our product teams, with our
internal leadership, with our
engineering teams on like what
do we need to do and, and what
do we need to figure out in
order to actually like resolve
this debate around what's
happening and what, where the
product should go explicitly.
So it was very, very
kind of like a defining
time of it's like you
could go any way, right?
You could go this way or
you could go this way.
We had to really kind
of nail down what we
needed to do for sure.
Yeah.
It's so smart.
Um, I-- you said this, but
I'm gonna just repeat it back.
Focusing on, okay, well, what
is our true differentiator
here so that we can position
ourselves well in this market
where there already are,
you know, maybe category
leaders specifically for,
you know, SMS, but here you
are with, You're a leader
in a different channel,
but now you're, um, you're
offering more capabilities
for your customers.
Yeah.
one thing there is like we
really had to think about
what gave us the right
to, to even offer SMS.
Like what, what was it like,
okay, you're, you know, for
email, sure, this is another
way to engage with customers
or prospects, but you what was
Mailchimp's like right to win
or why were you even engaging
in this channel, right?
Why were you dipping your
toes into something else?
It was such an interesting,
such an interesting
problem to solve for sure.
Yeah, the like the
why are we here?
Why did we do
this?
I love that, and I think a
lot of PMMs frankly miss that.
They just take the, "Okay,
here's the product. What
can it do? What are the
benefits?" Done, out the door.
And that's-- you leave so
much opportunity on the
table when you don't take the
time to investigate the why.
So leaning into that a bit,
like talk more about like
what did you do and how did
you start to uncover that?
For sure.
So I, I saw this, this
internal debate going on.
Obviously, product marketing
is involved in that 'cause
we at Mailchimp, the product
marketing team and the
product teams are very,
very close, and the product
management teams, I should say
explicitly, are very close in
terms of like understanding
the customers explicitly.
But I think what's expected
of product marketing is,
is to really bring that,
customer insight, that
market insight to table.
So what I did was I, I went
into customer research with
basically a hypothesis, right?
No, not even like, uh,
because we didn't know where
we wanted to go, like I
had to go in with just kind
of leaving it open to see
what, where our customers
would lead us, right?
Where they're taking us,
what they need explicitly.
So I, uh, when I interviewed
customers, from our
beta, I, I basically
asked about workflows.
I asked about what they needed
when it comes to engaging
with their customers or what
they needed from a SMS tool.
Not explicitly like product
features, but like what
was the thing that would
actually, kinda move the
needle for them as a business.
And, and the one thing I heard
that was, uh, honestly still
sticks with me these days,
uh, is, is this key quote.
It was, "I don't need more
tools. I need tools to talk
to each other." So it was
this idea that having multiple
tools like an email platform
or an SMS platform or a social
platform, whatever it was,
are all great and you need
that and you have to have it.
But if they're not speaking
to each other, it's
actually triple, double,
triple the work of, of
an individual, right?
So we found in, or I found in
my, in my research that about
86% of our customer base were
already using SMS in some
other platform, in some other
way, whether it be, you know,
transactional SMS or marketing
SMS or anything like that.
It was very, very fragmented
based on, on their needs.
And I think this allowed
me to reframe the Mailchimp
differentiation away from
like strictly features
and this is what we have
and you can do this in
Mailchimp, but it was, more
towards the platform, right?
So we were able to say, you
know, you, not only can you
do email and SMS in Mailchimp,
but it's connected to your
automations, connected to
your, your contact profiles.
It's connected to all
your existing data that
you've had before, right?
So I was able to understand
and listen to our customers
and bring that voice of
the customer directly into
those roadmap conversations.
And what it did was allow
us to actually shift the
priorities of our product
roadmap away from that, uh,
standalone integration or
standalone add-on of SMS,
but actually integrate SMS
into the platform, right?
So unified data, unified,
automations, which is
Mailchimp was huge on and s-
and, and customer journeys.
And then even the thing
that I think is the kicker
and that we heard so much
about in those interviews
was the unified reporting.
So being able to see based on
your spend, especially from
email and SMS perspective,
what is actually working
and what's not working.
And if you had two disparate
systems, you're gonna have
to do the same work twice
and not really see how they
overlap with each other.
So that was the big, big
thing that I was able to
bring to the table and
actually push the product
and the, the company kind
of narrative towards.
It was a, it was a very
interesting time for sure.
I love that.
And I, I have to just pause
for a second and go back to
something, just kinda the,
the process that you just
outlaid and the action that
you and, you know, the team
that you're working with took.
And you mentioned that you,
you did customer research,
and you were interviewing
customers, and I think it's
really important to note that
what you ask customers, the,
the, uh, literal questions you
ask are so important, and this
is where you can't just copy
and paste from an AI tool.
You need to be so thoughtful
about what you ask and
why you're asking it,
because that's how you
got that meaningful quote
that completely changed
the, the trajectory of
this entire initiative.
So I think that's just,
that's so important
It's, it's truly a... Knowing
what to ask or knowing
how to frame questions
when you're talking to
customers is, is a big thing.
I don't, I don't necessarily
like, like leading customers
in the way that I think that
they should go, you know?
And you can do that by asking
questions that you think that
they would like or, or that
you think the answer will
be good for what you want.
It's really about kind
of opening up the floor.
And I think what I found
is when you ask people to
talk about themselves, their
business, whatever it is,
they like to speak and they
will just give you exactly
what you need and exactly
what, what works for them.
And that is such a, such
a huge impactful and, and
insightful data points that.
you as a PMM can bring to the
table because no one else is
really asking those questions.
You know, UX research, sure,
but like it's really how
someone is, is using the
product for their business
or how the business would
be better with the product
that you're working with.
It's such an interesting
thing and super, super
important to really nail
down those questions, but
also leave it open to let
them talk to you explicitly.
Yeah.
So smart.
Okay, so take us to the end.
You had this really strong
narrative that you, you
know, developed after doing
all this wonderful research.
how did the results turn
out for the company?
was truly amazing, I think,
for, for a variety of reasons.
One, in the first year or,
or 18 months, I would say, we
launched SMS in 12 countries.
Um, and those are like
12 major, countries:
US, Australia, UK,
Canada, all these major
countries worldwide.
and then by the time I
left, we had launched in
37 countries, which I'm,
I mentioned, which is
honestly in about two and
a half to three years'
time, was an amazing.
feat 'cause there are a lot of
specific things that require,
uh, regulation and compliance
issues within each country.
So doing it in 37 countries
was an amazing feat.
That led to about 300% growth
in revenue in year two, and
then in year three, which was
my last year at Mailchimp,
we were looking at 200%, uh,
growth in revenue year over
year, which is exciting.
And at that point, it had
become the fastest growing
product at Mailchimp, right?
I think, uh, y- by the
time that I started in
2017, Mailchimp had been
around for 17 years.
So, coming in and being
able to, to launch a product
such as SMS and messaging
explicitly at Mailchimp
and to see it grow was,
was super gratifying, but
also just, uh, indicative
of what the market needed.
So that progression and
that actual growth of the
product changed Mailchimp's
trajectory as a company, and
the idea of multi-channel,
so email and SMS, became
a company-wide priority.
They, they saw the value, they
being leadership, they being
the company, saw the value
in incorporating SMS in the,
in the way that that email
was with Mailchimp, right?
So if you think about, uh,
Mailchimp, you should be
able to think about SMS and
email in the same light,
and they should be able to
do the same things, right?
So not only that from a
product standpoint did it
influence that, it actually
influenced the broader company
narrative and strategy as
a whole on how we should
go to market going forward,
how should, we should
evolve the company narrative
and the brand narrative,
both, uh, you know, from
a product perspective,
but also outside with our
customers and prospects.
So anytime we showed up
in front of customers
now, it was email and SMS.
It was not just email.
So very, I'd say lucky
and successful for sure,
but it was a, it was a
fun ride to say the least.
Yeah.
What a fantastic story.
I have so many things that I
wanna that I wanna focus on,
but the biggest thing is, I
don't even know if this is
the biggest thing, but one of
the things that stuck out to
me was you turned something
that was initially an add-on.
I mean, we s- you said it
at the beginning, like, the
first or the, the number one
email tool, now with SMS,
like, literally an add-on.
But, and it took time, this
took time, but you were
able to completely change
how the company saw itself
and influence the entire
company narrative, and you
have the results to prove
that this was the right
move for the company, even
though you were not the
first mover in the SMS space.
You didn't come in, well,
maybe initially you came
in looking like, "Hey,
here's our add-on."
Now you are a more serious
player, and you, you came
in super differentiated.
so this is such a great case
study, such a great story.
so let's put it
together in a playbook.
Let's say that, you know,
I'm a PMM, I'm listening to
this case study right now,
and I'm like, "Hey, you know,
I'm experiencing something
similar, where I'm a PMM
responsible for essentially an
add-on to my company's marquee
flagship product, but I think
there's something bigger here.
How do I try to follow in
your footsteps and make a big
impact for my company in the
same way, or at least aspiring
to, in the same way that you
did?" what's the first step?
Hmm.
yeah, absolutely.
Th- this is gonna be fun.
So step one, I think
for my case, and I think
something that is, is super
necessary and easy to do
for, for a lot of PMMs out
there is audit what your
platform already owns.
so this is, this is I think
a move that most people don't
necessarily, uh, do before
really going to market or
they miss like when they're
launching a new product
because they're, they're
in a hurry, they wanna get
something out, they need
to, they gotta write the
positioning, gotta get
the messaging out there.
But before you do anything
else, you need to take stock
of what your company already
has at that point, like that
a solution or a point solution
provider cannot compete with.
Uh, you really need to
understand your moat as a
platform or as a business.
And so for us at Mailchimp,
it was, uh, it was the contact
list, it was, you know,
your, your audience list.
It was the automation
logic and the actual tools
to be able to automate
your marketing efforts.
A- and then the customer
relationship, right?
It was all already built,
already trusted by 12
million businesses.
SMS didn't need
to win on its own.
It just needed to plug into
what we already owned, and
That's a completely different
competitive conversation
when it comes down to it.
That's even a completely
different, like, narrative
exercise because initially
what most PMMs would do,
which is not wrong, it's
what we've all been trained
to do as PMMs, is, okay,
go build the positioning.
Okay, go build the narrative.
And then later, which I guess
is what MailChimp did as well,
but later, okay, now what is,
what's our platform story?
Like, y- you know.
But then that's-- But
somebody else is owning
that, and you still own
your single lane product.
But I love the way that
you're explaining this, is
to as part of that initial,
positioning and, you know,
work, is to audit what you
own and how, figure out how
this product fits into that.
It never occurred
to me to do that.
the idea here is
hindsight is 20/20, right?
for me, right?
And so I think that.
is 100% something that I
learned doing this and have to
remember all the time, right?
I think that we can-- P- PMMs
can be in such a reactive
spot that we, we not knowingly
or not willingly forget to
do X, Y, or Z, but we, we
need to get something done.
And I think being able
to take a second, this
doesn't take long to do.
It's really like just
understanding what you have
already, and I think doing
that, yeah, like, like you
said, Mailchimp didn't do
that first, and I think this
is where what I learned and
what was a great opportunity
for anyone listening is
a base level thing to do.
Step one, just take that audit
and understand it, because
if you do, it'll help your
narrative in the future.
It'll help you f- fold in
your, your product's narrative
into the other, you know,
narratives that are going
around or the umbrella
narrative of your brand.
but also allow you to
ladder up to that, but
then maybe shift it, right?
Based on how you're seeing
it and how you're going to
market or how you're seeing
your customers engage with
this or how they're not
engaging with it too, Right.
I think that is also just
a great opportunity to,
uh, to really lean in and,
and just get that base
level understanding of
how everything is and take
that audit so that you can
ultimately influence, uh,
things going forward for sure.
You know what else I really
love about this step is that
it's part of that context
gathering That I think is
so important, but it's the
context that most PMMs-- I
mean, I didn't, admittedly.
I never did that.
Most PMMs don't do that.
I don't need to gather the
context of my own company
because I'm gonna have that
as part of my messaging and
positioning, but it's kind of
like not really because your
messaging and positioning
becomes more about that single
lane product that you own.
and the like why us
part is always like an
afterthought on a slide.
You know what I mean?
It's like very rarely part of
the like broader narrative.
When I think of the context
gathering, I think of
more like what's happening
in the market, what's
happening with my customers.
You know, I don't think
about doing this audit.
No, that's 100% correct.
And, I think the thing
that I'm seeing is, is
a lot of companies these
days and a lot of PMMs
are very siloed in what
they do and what they own.
And so Honestly, doing this
audit like this honestly just
opens you up to do more of
what your product marketing
kind of like function can
do internally too, right?
You are, a visionary in
that you are seeing that
it's not just your product.
Obviously, product
marketers, we love our
products, that's for sure.
But like it's not just your
product in the whole story,
and being able to audit
it and take a, take a look
at the whole picture is
such an important thing to
do, and honestly just sets
you up for so much success
going forward and Such
like more internal kind
of like trust-building
opportunities too.
I know that's like seems
very random, but it, it is a
great chance to like expound
on your thinking that you as
a product marketer are doing
this, that, or the other to
support not only your product,
but how the company itself
and the brand itself shows up.
So
step one is to do that audit.
Um, what's step two?
So it is to understand
that a little bit, right?
So have that mindset, um,
going into this step two is,
is, is the best thing here.
I think step two?
is then going into
research with that open,
uh, hypothesis, right?
And the word open is doing a
lot of work here explicitly,
but like I didn't go in to
my research with a deck to
validate, or I didn't go in,
uh, at the beginning with,
"Here's some messaging.
Can you tell me what
resonates or what
doesn't resonate?" Right?
I went in genuinely not
knowing what I'd find.
So the question that I
keep asking or that I-- the
question that I kept asking
wasn't, "Would you use SMS
if we built it?" Or, "Would
you use SMS more if we built
these features?" It was,
"Walk me through how you reach
customers today when something
is time-sensitive or when you
have a deal," depending on
the type of customer, right?
When you have a, a, uh, um, a
Mother's Day deal coming up,
you know, what, how do you get
your, your product in front
of your customers, and how do
you engage with them, right?
And then I just shut up, I,
I, I've learned that that
insight that you can get from
those opportunities or those
types of questions actually
like, that's when actual
useful information comes out
is when a customer is just
describing their day, right?
They're explicitly
just talking about
how they do their job.
That's when you hear
the true frustrations.
That's when you hear like, "I
have to go to three different
tools just to do one thing
or just to look at all of
my, my metrics," right?
Like that's some key insight
that we were able to take, but
also for anything that you're
working with from a product
marketing perspective, that's
when the real like tangible
nuggets come out for sure.
So this, like, open
hypothesis that you're
describing, I'm gonna put
you on the spot a little bit.
Um, is there a formula
for, like, writing what
that looks like or, like,
or framing the question?
and I guess, like, if you
were to, remove the context of
Mailchimp, how would you build
that, like, open hypothesis
of, like, walk me through...
Is, is it kinda like a
day in a life type of
question for a customer?
I think that like open,
uh, and I, and I mean
open really as a, as a I'm
not asking really pointed
questions about whatever
it is I'm asking about.
It is, like those answers
to those questions, like
for instance, again,
for SMS, it's like an
opportunity to dig in on
where there are gaps, right?
And I think that's, that's
something you're not
explicitly asking where a
gap is in your day-to-day,
because, if somebody
asked me that, I would
be like: "I have no idea.
Like I, I really can't tell
you, but here's my day."
And then you as that product
marketer, if you leave it open
enough and have that mindset
of, "I'm listening for gaps
too," like that is where the
good nuggets come out, is
because you're not explicitly
asking someone what the
problem is or what can we do
to help you do this, but it's,
it is tell me where you have
problems now or tell me about
your day and we'll identify
some problems together.
It is really about just
honestly creating a, a, a
space for people to open up
a little bit about whatever
it is that they need to talk
about, and that alone just
gives people just like, "Oh,
you know what? That actually
sucks on a day-to-day basis."
And that's like key insight.
So really trying to
go in there and, and
give people this, this
platform or this stage to
actually talk, um, versus
just answering questions
yes or no or whatever.
It, it, that's really when it
comes into play, and I think
that's what I mean by open is,
is allowing these people to
just speak and talk normally
versus I'm being interviewed
by some tech company about
how I use SMS, right?
Yeah.
I am gonna come back to
something that we-- that came
up in the first step, and
that was still this context
gathering that I'm seeing.
And I wanna be very
explicit and say context
gathering, because what
you're saying is not to
give them context of, for
example, "Here's my message
and give me a reaction."
You're not doing that.
You're still gathering that
information in step two, like
gathering this context from
them about their day-to-day
so that you can go through
and identify the gaps.
Absolutely.
I think that's such a key
point and we'll get into
this, I think, but coming
up it's like those are the,
the things that you as a
product marketer, if you
can get that context, if you
can get that insight, that
just preserves and expands
your place at the table
from a product, you know,
development, product roadmap,
product strategy perspective,
and it's such good insight.
I think that, like, gives
you this, this signal, right?
This... It's what, it's,
it is what allows you to
identify the signal that
you can then take back
to your team, for sure.
I could not agree
more with that.
It gives-- It arms you
with, I guess the proof
or the evidence for,
like, why you should
have a seat at the table.
In so many contexts, um,
your stakeholders internally
would, like, love you, love
you for that, those insights.
Okay.
So step one is to do
that internal audit of,
like, what do we own?
And then step two is to
do this market research
with customers with
a open hypothesis.
What is step three?
So I, I hinted at
it, but step three?
is to... I- is when you
translate that insight
that you've gathered,
both the context and from
your customers or from the
market research, you, you
frame that into, like, a
roadmap argument, right?
This is where I think
that PMMs leave so
much on the table.
You do the research, you, you
find the quote or you find
the data, and then you put it
on a slide and you call it,
you know, data to support my
positioning or, you know, you
call it positioning period.
I think that quote that
I mentioned earlier, the,
"I don't need more tools,
but I need my tools to
talk to each other," is so
impactful and useful, not
just for my positioning,
but it's actually gold
for a product team, right?
So I brought it into roadmap
discussions and roadmap
conversations verbatim.
So, like, I brought that,
like, this is, this was
this customer at this
conversation X, X, Y, Z.
the customer insights
like that are hard
to ignore, right?
So the customer answered
the question of what
to build, right?
And, and, and honestly, what
our differentiator should be.
So it was that, like, key
insight and bringing it and
framing it in the, in the,
the format of a, a roadmap
or a roadmap discussion or a
product strategy discussion
that really kind of like,
all right, tip the scales
into, all right, we...
Sure, it's not an add-on,
but maybe we should do,
you know, make it a, uh, an
all-in-one platform that is
connected to everything else
that Mailchimp does, right?
So it's it's these kind of
key insights that product
marketing can really come
to the table and actually,
like- translate it for,
for the product teams
and product management
teams to actually make a
difference in what they're
working towards, right?
Yeah.
It's just one extra
step for a PMM.
Like you do the market
research, you show how it
supports your narrative,
your positioning, your
messaging, but then you
also, this is just one more
step, you also talk about the
implications to the roadmap.
I love that.
Okay.
And it's that, that is the
real unlock here because
that's how you start.
Once it gets on the roadmap,
then it starts to feed into
the rest of company strategy
and narrative building for
the broader company, not just
your single lane product.
So I love that.
Yeah.
So what happens next after,
you know, you get, I get
it on the roadmap or, you
know, I frame it as part
of my roadmap discussion,
what do I do after that?
Absolutely.
I think, so once you get it
into a roadmap or once you
get it into the strategy
for a product, there will be
a time where you are, your
product may not meet the
needs of everyone, right?
But you can reframe your
constraints as a product
or as a product team as
your advantage, right?
So every product has something
it doesn't do as well as,
as any other, competitor or
any other company out there.
But I think the instinct
is to hide that or
work around it, right?
But I think the better
move is to own it and then
flip it on its head, right?
So we knew, as I mentioned
earlier, that we were
never going to out-Twilio
Twilio or we're, or, or
out-Attentive Attentive
in the beginning, right?
From this, from the, the
start of, of launching SMS.
It is great to set
your sights on that and
build towards it, right?
Using that insight and that,
context that you've gathered
in the first few steps, right?
But it's also not necessarily
the fight that you should
be picking to start.
You should not be
going up against these
folks immediately.
So instead of pretending
that that gap didn't exist,
right, we leaned into it.
You want deep SMS
infrastructure?
Great.
Here are the tool... There
are tools that do that, right?
You can, you can get that.
But if you want your SMS
that actually talks to your
email campaigns, it talks
to your contact list, your
automations without duct
taping three platforms
together, um, then that's us.
We are what you want, right?
Your constraint becomes
your positioning when
you're honest about the
trade-offs that you're
asking the customers to make.
And what that also does is,
you know, that allows you
to also get very specific on
the type of customer that you
want, um, 'cause, you know,
you can set your eyes on the
Twilios and the, the, the, the
enterprises that use that, but
if you're not ready for it,
you know, you can, you can get
the other people that Twilio's
leaving behind or you can get
the people that Attentive's
leaving behind, whatever
it is You're just able to
hit that note based on your
constraints and based on your
positioning and actually like
leaning into it a bit more.
Yeah.
Okay.
So after I do the roadmap
discussion, then I come
back to my, positioning
and specifically my
differentiators and
like who I am and who
I definitely am not.
And I think this is, it's,
it's second nature, I
think even as humans to
just wanna like totally
ignore our weaknesses.
But like all humans do
this, not just PMMs.
Like, but rather than avoiding
those conversations, it's
a little bit of a flex
actually to be like, "Oh,
this is, oh, yes, if you
want that, we're not that."
Like, let's make sure w- let's
make sure we're a right fit.
Yeah, exactly.
So it, and you know
what else it does?
I mean, I, I would assume
that it does, is in those
sales conversations, you're
building a little bit more
trust with the prospect
because they feel like you're
being honest about who you
are and who you're not.
So I really like
that approach.
so is there more to the
story of what, you know,
kinda like what you do after
you take all these steps?
I'm, I'm glad you asked,
and I'm glad you brought up
sales too, because I think
the, the last step, if you
can, depending on whatever
company you're at though,
is to pressure test a lot
of this with sales, right?
So before anything goes
external, right, even before
you like put, put it on an ad
or put it on the, the landing
page or whatever, right?
You, you should run it
through your sales team,
not for approval, right?
Not just, I mean,
they would love that.
I know that they would
love that, but just for
reality, like give yourself
a reality check, right?
So I'd, I'd give reps,
uh, a new pitch and watch
what happens, right?
So I would build out a
pitch for SMS and frankly a
platform pitch because it's
bigger than just SMS and
see what happened, right?
So could they use it naturally
in a conversation or did
they have to like stop and
explain it first, right?
I've always found that the
best positioning actually
sounds like something a
smart salesperson would say
in their own voice, right?
Or on their own, and not
something That comes out
of a brand workshop or a, a
positioning workshop, right?
So sales will tell you faster
than any focus group whether
the message is actually
working or worth your time to,
to push out there for sure.
That is one of the best tips I
think I've ever heard in terms
of-- I mean, I've definitely,
uh, I've definitely heard
other guests on my show and
I myself, like, don't leave
sales behind, of course.
But the way that you
described it of, like, see
if a salesperson can come
back to you and say it in
their own words, and if
they can, then that is an
indication that it's something
that is worth your time
and probably going to be
easier to enable, frankly.
Absolutely.
It is don't leave
sales behind.
Yeah.
we all, we all know to do
that, but I genuinely think
if you can, even like even a
Slack message on, on a, on a,
a, a pretty consistent basis
with, with like, "Hey team,"
you know, or if you have a
couple of like main sellers
that you know you work well
with or you know are thinking
about the product in a
different way, if you can come
to them and just share this
stuff with them and get some
input, one, it's golden for
your actual positioning, it's
golden for your messaging,
but it's also, again, going
back to like PMMs in general,
it's golden for, relationship
building, like huge.
Just to, to have those, those
one-on-one conversations
or, you know, Slack messages
and DMs with folks is such
a, such an easy thing to do
that it's, it's almost silly
that we don't do it more.
Um, I'm sure there are a
lot of people out there
that speak a lot with sales,
but I'm sure there are a
lot of people that don't.
it's just about kind of
getting in that habit, right?
Getting in that routine of
doing it and really just
leaning in and, and, and
honestly taking it, like
taking it not with a grain
of salt, but actually like,
okay, this is, this is real.
This is actually what
people, what they hear on a
day-to-day basis, what our
customers are saying, right?
They're the front line.
It's such an important
step and such a, like a
fairly simple one too, and
one that's just invaluable
to getting out the door.
I love that.
I'd be stoked if, like, a
salesperson was able to, like,
take my narrative and repeat
it back to me in, in their
words, 'cause that tells me
that, like, they got it, and
Yeah.
they're excited, uh,
yeah, they're, and they're
excited enough about it to,
like, think about it and
articulate it back, though.
That's really cool.
Okay, I know we're talking
about sales, but I wanna
switch back over to, uh, the
product team for a second.
So we talked a lot about,
um, just throughout this
conversation already, the
idea that a product marketer's
job isn't just to market
the thing that you built,
but to also shape what
gets built in the future.
We're not product managers,
but we should be contributing,
and that's, I think is that,
that's very hard for PMMs
to earn that trust with PMs.
Yeah.
And it can be a really big
shift for a PMM to like,
to make it to that point.
So how do you think
about that in practice?
There's a few things here.
One, I think Obviously,
every product and
product marketing org is
different, and they have
different ways of working.
But I think for me, it,
it, honestly, it took
me a while to actually
operate in that way versus
just saying it, right?
Or saying, "You should
do this," right?
Or, "I like to do this."
It's a different story, right?
I think the easy version of
a product marketer's job,
and it's not easy, but the
easy version of it is you
get the brief, you understand
what's launching, right?
You write the messaging,
and you launch the
campaign, right?
You work with teams to
get it out the door.
And over the last few years
in SaaS, uh, specifically
SaaS marketing or SaaS
product marketing, you could
probably get away with that
because product-led growth
is huge, and product-led
orgs are massive out there.
I, I think the version
that actually moves,
like, companies is when
you're, you're in the room
before the brief exists or
before the product like,
"Here's our PRD," right?
When you're the person who
shows up to a product review
with customer evidence, like
we talked about earlier, and
says, "Here's what I heard,
and here's what it means for
what we should build," right?
That is huge.
So at Mailchimp, that
SMS roadmap debate wasn't
going to resolve itself.
each, like, side had smart
people with good arguments
on what we should do.
But, like, what broke that
tie was, were customers
who'd never been in any
of those meetings, right?
And so I was bringing that.
My job was to bring their
voices into that room.
And once you figure that
out and get on a... I think
it, it does take a little
bit of rigor to get that
kind of like motion on the
regular, right?
But once You have
to practice it.
But once you figure that
out, you as a product
marketer stop being the
support function, right?
And actually start
being a strategic one.
And I think that is so crucial
for a product marketer from a
bringing value to your team,
but also being able to, to
bring value to your customers.
You are that voice.
You can not just support
launches, but actually be
the voice of the customer
in those conversations and
be a strategic one at that.
So very, very important.
Yeah, and you earn a lot
of respect internally too.
People start to be like, "Oh,
Someone, I will
say this right now.
Somebody told me recently that
they have worked with a lot
of product marketers who, Have
opinions and have data to back
it, but also has worked with
a lot of product marketers
that just have opinions.
And I think, one, I was pretty
taken aback by that, but at
the same time, it is so true
is, is if you as a product
marketer, we can have opinions
all day because we do know
this stuff, but if we have
these opinions and these kind
of strategic initiatives or
strategic guidance, right,
that is backed by that data,
it is so, so important to
do that and is so valuable.
And I think people see that
and people recognize that.
And to your point, it is--
it shows your value and
gets you and keeps you in
that seat at the table.
It's so important.
Yeah, absolutely.
okay.
So fast-forward to today, if,
I... If you were to repeat
this same playbook, how would
AI play a role in all of this?
That's a great question.
I, I am-- It, it is so, I
think, pertinent to the days
that we are living in with
regards to AI explicitly,
but I think at a base level,
I think AI helps you come
to the table faster, right?
So you, you-- the research
that used to take weeks,
the synthesis, the, the
pattern recognition across
different, you know, numbers
or hundreds of customers
in those conversations,
you can compress that
dramatically, right?
So you're, you're showing
up earlier in the process
with actual evidence instead
of waiting for the, the,
uh, formal research sprint
to wrap up or waiting
on, on, you know, the
interviews to stop, right?
You're, you're, you're able
to actually get all of that
information and, and bring
it to the table quicker.
Uh, one level deeper though,
I think is it's, and this is
where it gets interesting,
is that AI changes the
model from like research
as an event to research
as a continuous signal.
So you're not doing
a listening tour once
a quarter anymore.
You're actually monitoring
reviews, support tickets,
sales calls, right?
All in real time, and you
can take that and surface
those patterns before
anyone's asked you to, right?
So by the time there's like
an internal debate about what
to build next, you already
have the customer in the
room, and you don't have
to go and get them, Right.
You, you can say, " been
there," they've been there
the whole time because you
are able to understand what's
happening all the time now
with AI, and it's so...
And it like it fast-forwards
steps like one through three
for you and, and makes it just
so much easier to, to one,
come into that conversation,
be there, and, and it's a,
an always-on type of thing.
And I think that's what's
the big opportunity here with
AI is to, to enhance all of
these steps and make them
just much more, you know,
consistent and always on.
Yeah, you can still be the
champion of the customer, but
it's, it will allow you to do
it in an always on fashion.
So when those debates, yeah,
when those debates come up,
you're already ready to go.
I love that.
Okay, so y- you're
at Zapier now.
So what lessons from this
playbook are you taking with
you and applying to Zapier?
That's a great question,
and I think the biggest
one is, is finding that
integration story you already
own before you compete
explicitly on features, right?
So I'm, I'm doing the
same thing now at Zapier.
I'm working on MCP among
other products, and,
and MCP is how AI agents
connect to real tools and
actually take real action,
if you're not familiar.
Uh, the real story
here is that Zapier?
already connects to
9,000 plus apps, right?
And so AI agents need
that to do anything
truly meaningful, right?
So we're not trying to be
another AI platform, or
we're not trying to take
over, you know, be your
place for Claude or right.
We are, We are the
infrastructure layer
that actually makes
any AI agent actually
work and do good work.
so
leaning on what's made
Zapier successful these
past 15 years, and it's the
same playbook It's, it's
a different stage and a
different category, right?
So it's really trying
to understand what, what
our mode is, and leaning
into that explicitly, um,
like I mentioned earlier
with MailChimp and how
we leaned into the, you
know, the platform play.
So it's
it's very much a similar
play here and can be
used all over the place.
Yeah, right
now
actually.
I get... Got-- No,
I'm just kidding.
Yeah,
That, that's awesome.
Okay, last question for
you on this topic, Wade.
What piece of advice do
you have for a product
marketer who's in the midst
of a major shift like this?
Um, I want to say explicitly,
don't let the launch be
the first time that you
touch the story, right?
By the time the product
is ready to ship, that
narrative should already
be set because you were in
the room when the decisions
were made with that customer
evidence, with that data in
hand, ready to go, right?
Research is a weapon.
You can use it early, you
can use it to break ties or
break, you know, debates,
and let the customer answer
the questions that nobody in
the room can agree on, right?
So that's how PMM, that's
how PMM earns its seat, by
being the person who truly
understands the customer.
I said it a few times,
but I'll just say
it one more time.
It is you earn that seat
and you keep it by being the
person who truly understands
the customer and brings
that voice to the room.
I could not agree w- more
with that sentiment, and I
feel like I've, I've witnessed
it in my own career, so
I know this to be true.
Um, so yes, PMMs, if,
uh, if you're not already
doing it, um, this is a
big unlock for your career.
Okay, I love this
case study so much.
and now I'd like to switch
gears and move over to our
next segment of the show,
the messaging critique.
this is where we, as
product marketing experts,
get to analyze real world,
marketing and messaging.
Um, the fun part is, Wade,
as the guest of my show,
you get to pick the company
that we critique today.
Let me quickly outline
some ground rules.
First, you're gonna pick
a company that either you
are the customer target or
you're very familiar with the
customer segment, because it's
not really fair to analyze
messaging for products that
we don't really understand
the audience for.
Yeah, totally Um, and then
you're gonna quickly tell
us what is the messaging,
who's it for, what are you
loving about it, what do
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently,
and then we'll do a quick
brainstorm on how the PMM can
take it to the next level.
So without further ado,
please reveal the company that
we'll be looking at today.
Absolutely.
I, I was, I was thinking
about this, and I, I really,
and I say this because
I've been using it so much.
I I actually want to
talk about Cursor.
Have you heard of them?
I have, and I'm so
excited about it.
This has not been
done on the show yet.
I think a lot of people...
It's, it's one of those
up-and-coming, products.
So just quickly
tell us what it is.
Of course.
It's a, it's an AI native
code editor, right?
So VS Code is, is
Microsoft's, right?
But they've rebuilt
it from the ground up
with AI at the core.
So their headline is.
literally like the best
way to code with AI, right?
They've got agents that
can build entire features
end-to-end, auto-complete that
predicts multi-line edits.
And they're deeply embedded
in how like serious
engineering teams work, right?
So they've surpassed, I
think, 2 billion in annual
revenue and hold like
roughly 25% of the market
share among this like
generative AI software buyers.
So that's like, that's
not a small bet.
That's pretty
I w-
That's pretty im-
that's pretty impressive
actually.
Yeah, and so for anyone
who wants to follow
along, I'm going to
their website homepage.
It's just C-U-R-S-O-R.com.
okay.
So what do you think
is working really well
with their messaging?
So the thing that I, I love
is that they genuinely,
Mm, like made a genuinely
bold product bet and their
messaging reflects it, right?
So when everyone else
is just adding AI to
their editor, right?
A- Cursor asked w-
what if we rebuilt the
editor around AI, right?
And their messaging is
actually consistent with that.
So the best way to code
with AI, it's clean, it's,
it's, it's declarative,
it takes a stand.
It's, it's not, you're not
hedging anything, right?
It's a rare, it's rare
in a category where every
competitor is trying
to sound like it's the
safe choice, right?
Or the, the, the, uh,
the secure choice, right?
Which is important, but
like the confidence here
is earned and it comes
through in their messaging.
Mm, I love that.
Okay, so then what would
you say or what would
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently?
I, I think this is not
necessarily a, a product
marketing thing, but something
that they should think
about going forward too, is
like it's, it's a nuanced
critique, but like I think
their messaging is almost
entirely developer inward or
like developer-focused and
that, that's understandable.
That's what the product is.
But like everything about
that Cursor does is for
the engineer, right?
Speed, auto-complete, agents,
model flexibility, right?
But there's missing narrative
about what Cursor enables
for a business, Right.
So who's making the
procurement decision at a
500-person company, right?
It's not usually the
developer, it's not usually
those people, but it's,
it's, it's the engineering
leader or the CTO or
the IT officer, right?
It's, it is, they need to
justify that spend, right?
So right now, Cursor
doesn't give that person
much to work with, right?
The ROI story, the, the
org-wide transformation
angle, it's pretty thin, and
I think that's a gap I would
close if they're looking to,
like, expand and do more.
Obviously, I think they have
an opportunity or they have
already kind of bridged that
gap a little bit just by
going through developers.
But I think as they want to
continue to learn to grow
and how they have to grow
as a, as a startup, you have
to go up here at that level
to get, get top-down almost.
So I think there's a lot of
opportunity to close that gap.
Yeah, so many companies miss
that, and it's, it's, it's
not that it's hard to do,
it's just it takes some
time and some steps and,
It comes with the, Like, I
think it comes with the, the
stage of the company, right?
And I think it, it's, it
is definitely just a fun
opportunity to like, I
kinda wanna be in the room
when they're like, "This
is a new, like, persona
or a new... Like, this is
somebody we need to go after.
How can we do it?" I think
it would be very, very
interesting to see, for sure.
Uh, so on that note, like w-
how would you like to see them
take it to the next level?
I mean, obviously they,
they can do a little more
with the buy team and, you
know, looking at building
out campaigns there.
But like what... Is that
what that looks like?
I think that looks, it
looks something like that.
Or, or even like?
I'd build out like a teams
messaging layer, right?
So that sits above that
individual developer story.
So something like Cursor
for engineering orgs, right?
So, uh, that's very simple,
but it's just, it, as a,
as a positioning statement,
it puts y- you in the right
mindset of, "Oh, this isn't
just for me as an engineer,"
or, "This isn't just for,
for me as an engineer, but
this is for my entire org,
or my entire engineering
org can use this," right?
You have proof points around
the development speed, code
quality, um, onboarding
new engineers faster,
which I think is such an
important thing these days.
And this idea around shared
brain that we're seeing
a lot with AI is so, so
important, and I think
they should lean into that.
Like, getting onboarded here
is simple as, it's, it's
as easy as a prompt, right?
They have the evidence, right?
They're running hundreds of
automations per hour, have
enterprise customers already.
that raw material to, like,
make that really, really
good, like, compelling
messaging is there.
It just needs to be packaged
and, like, for that buyer.
And I think it's not
just, not just the end
user, but for that, that,
that buyer at that level
that we're talking about.
I think that's the move
that takes them from a
developer tool to engineering
infrastructure, right?
It's a completely different,
like, conversation,
but it's super, super
important and could be fun.
I love that.
I would not be surprised if
they came and sent you a DM
after hearing this episode.
Grab some guidance
and mentorship.
Okay.
Well, shout out to any
Cursor PMMs out there.
You guys are
doing a great job.
Um, we can't say, we
can't wait to see how
your story develops.
All right.
So, uh, Wade, one thing I
like to make space for on
this podcast is a moment
of gratitude, um, 'cause
in product marketing, we
never get anywhere alone.
We're always learning
from each other, building
from one another.
So I just wanna say a genuine
thank you for coming on
and doing all the prep and
sharing your case study
and all of your guidance.
It's an incredibly inspiring
and helpful to the product
marketing community.
So thank you.
That's awesome.
It's my pleasure.
I, I-- This was one, uh, um,
amazing kind of conversation
and, and frankly, very fun.
I love when we get to
geek, geek out a little bit
about product marketing.
It's so much fun.
So
Isn't it?
I know, the time goes
by so fast and you're
like, "Oh, we only have
an hour for this? What?"
I know.
Like, let's get another one.
Let's get another hour
Yeah, totally.
Okay, and then last thing
is I would love to give
some shout-outs to some PMMs
who have really contributed
to your career growth
and made you the amazing
PMM that you are today.
So let's hear it.
Who are those PMMs?
I have... I've, uh, was
thinking about this,
and I have... There's
so many people, um,
not even like PMMs?
but I think if I'm gonna
think about this from a
PMM perspective, I've had
so many great managers
over my time, my, my many
years in, in this industry.
you know, Jamal Miller,
who was a, a, a, a major
kind of contributor to
my growth at Mailchimp.
He's now at Calendly.
He's doing fantastic.
He was just such a, a
level head and a, a smart
tactical product marketer,
helped me, uh, tremendously.
And then, uh, one more is,
um, it's actually, his name
is John Holbrook, and he was
my direct, like, manager at
Mailchimp for a long time.
And he, he just made me
understand, like, the human
element of, of the work
that we do, the job that
we do, um, the organization
that we live and work in.
And he is just a truly
good human being that
is one of the smartest
men that I know, and I
am super thankful that.
I got to experience his, his
guidance, his leadership,
and, uh, he still... We,
we, we talk all the time.
Like, he is one of my... I
think he-- I, I-- see him
as a friend and a mentor.
so
feels so good to look back
on our careers and think
like, "Wow, I would not be
here today if it weren't
for this person or that
person."
it's true.
It's very
aw, love having
mentors like that.
Okay, and this is my
last question for you.
Where else can we acce-
access your expertise?
Is it best to just
find you on LinkedIn?
LinkedIn?
is probably the best for sure.
Um, I'm pretty
active on there.
I have a website too,
but you can see that
on my LinkedIn too.
So yeah, come, come find me,
come find me on LinkedIn.
I'd
We will check it out.
you.
No question about it
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Wade.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you like this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful if
you would leave us a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.