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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Megan Ho do you wanna fill us
in on your sort of credentials?
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Um,
I think it's an area that I just realized
that I was really passionate about,
particularly while I was doing my MTS.
So my ministry apprenticeship.
When I moved to Wollongong
and started at St.
Mark's Anglican Church in West
Wollongong, there was a particular
need in our crche space.
and so I jumped on board there.
I'd served in kids' ministry before,
in a, a few different spaces, but
there was a need there, uh, and I
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: it.
Um, and so then when the
opportunity came up to do.
An apprenticeship with the church.
I did that.
And um, that was during the COVID years.
So ministry looked super, super
different, but it also just really
gave me space to deep dive more so
into ministry four under fives and
to see what other people were doing.
and I didn't feel particularly like
there was a lot of great information.
Readily available for how to
do ministry in this space well.
And so it was a cool opportunity
for me to, to research into
it, to do a little bit.
And then once church kind of came
back, face to face again, actually
put some things into practice.
So I used that time as well to
also write some curriculums.
Then got to put it into practice and
make changes, see what actually worked.
Yeah.
And so then when I was studying at Youth
Works, that was a particular area that
I was really, um, excited to think about
a bit more deeply, and really enjoyed
And now I am over at Albion Park Anglican
Church, um, and doing kids ministry there.
We also have a preschool on site, so
I was doing two days as a preschool
educator, so I, worked towards getting
a early childhood education certificate.
As well as doing the kids' ministry there.
And just very recently, um,
have had a baby of my own.
So I've got a little four month old now.
Um, yeah, so very much in that
newborn trenches kind of stage.
So haven't been, um, doing kids' ministry
for a few months now in a church setting.
Um, but I think it has also changed
even now, my understanding, um, of
kids' ministry and particularly, um,
partnering with parents in that way too.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Um, I
started Kids Ministry being trained
under a wonderfully gifted kids
minister in year eight in high school.
And for the.
20 years that followed, just
kept doing kids ministry and
learning from kids ministers.
And then people said to me during
my year, 13 year, you're really
great at working with kids.
Don't do a law degree.
Go and work with kids.
And so I did.
I studied a bachelor of early childhood
education and became a preschool teacher.
I worked in the preschool that was
attached to our church and thought
deeply about how preschool world
and church world could interrelate.
Then when my husband went off to
Moore College, I went with him and
did an advanced diploma there to
really combine my knowledge of.
Passion for zero to fives with a
deeper understanding of God's word.
And I love being able to think
through, um, yeah, how those two
interrelate well, and how the Bible
can be taught in a way that is relevant
and applicable to zero to fives.
So I.
Bring those together in writing curriculum
and supporting in whatever church
we're in, in whatever way that I can.
I've also had three little people in that
time and lived through the highs and lows
of thinking about what faith looks like
for them in our home, as well as, um,
yeah, the people that they're learning
alongside and doing life alongside.
Um, as I continue to teach in
a local community, preschool.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Hmm,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
So if we're thinking about
the credentials that you guys
have, you've got the firsthand
experience of being on the ground.
You've each got sort of formal
training in it, and you've got your
own experience of your own kids
as well, and, um, how they grow.
Even though Megan, you're just
at the start of that journey.
Um.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
much so.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah.
So in thinking about that, like I think
the fact that you guys are talking about
having an actual curriculum for CR Age
children, uh, for our overseas listeners
and maybe interstate listeners, uh, CR
Age, is that zero to five kind of range?
It can vary a little bit based
on your church context, but it's
generally the under fives age group.
Um, and so I think actually the concept
of curriculum for that age group.
It's something that can be quite
challenging, um, particularly
in my role with ministry
support, um, team at YouthWorks.
I often get questions or comments
about, um, whether CRA should be about.
Babysitting or how heavily on the end
of care and, um, strong attachments
should we be focusing in the early
years kind of thinking of ministry,
um, and how much should we be
focusing on intentional teaching?
Um, so I guess, do you
guys have thoughts on that?
Like how much Bible is
enough for under fives?
What should under fives
ministry look like?
Let's just see where this conversation
goes with, um, yeah, our thoughts of
our experiences and what we've learned.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
I think we definitely should be
teaching Bible content to under fives.
Um, they really do have the
ability to understand, um, and
to grow in their understanding.
Um, of God.
And I think like God is so amazing
that the Bible is accessible
to children of all ages.
Um, and I I do think that we would be
missing out on something if we don't take
the opportunity to start to lay those
foundations down in those early years.
And they are foundations.
We're not talking about doing, you know,
really deep, deep theological dives into.
Deuteronomy or something like that.
Like we're talking about setting
foundations for these children,
um, as they begin to, to know and,
and, and love and follow Jesus.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Mm.
I think that.
The foundations is the key word for me.
I love, um, that you've picked up
on that because I, like, we know
from the science of development that
90% of brain development happens
before a child is five years old.
Like, that's humongous.
They are making so much sense of
the world and why would we not wanna
help them to ground their whole
understanding of the world and the
way that they see it in a biblical
foundation in understanding who God is.
And who they've been made to be.
The things that we teach them and
the way that we open God's word to
them in that age really does lay a
foundation for their whole worldview,
and that is such a privilege and
such a really exciting opportunity
that we don't wanna miss up on.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Mm.
Yeah.
And kids do have, I mean,
it's in the Bible, right?
Kids do have the particular faith
and personalities that are curious
and craving that learning as well.
Um, if a child feels safe and
healthy, um, then they're actually
seeking out new things at that age
consistently and wanting to learn, uh,
which is so exciting, like you said.
Why wouldn't we be wanting
to fill them with those
foundational truths that we know?
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Mm.
And I think, you know, like the Bible
is pretty explicit in, we are commanded
to tell the next generation of God's
faithfulness and his glorious deeds.
Like Psalm 78 is just one
example of that, and it doesn't
say when we should start, but.
A command.
So start it when we
can, as early as we can.
God is glorious.
Even zero to five year olds can see and
wonder and marvel at his gloriousness.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
Yeah.
A great example I can think of,
of that from, um, my experience
in Parish was actually just even
teaching the kids that God has created
the things that we see around us.
And still, at the end of the term, at
the end of the year, this little girl was
still walking around our site at church
going, oh, tree, God created that tree.
Oh.
Bird, God created that bird and pointing
to people and saying, God created you.
And isn't that just like a wonderful
reminder of things have been created
with a purpose by loving God?
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
there's actually so much depth in
that even though it's so simple as
well, which is pretty encouraging.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311:
yeah, definitely.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Okay.
So what would you say, um,
to someone who sort of said.
I wanna do more than babysitting.
Where do I start?
Do you have any sort of practical
tips on what that might look like
of where someone would start?
Um, or even before we get to that,
going back a step, what do we know
about how kids learn at that age?
Um,
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
you guys have both said starting with
foundations, so obviously starting simple.
Um, yeah.
Do you have any thoughts or tips on that?
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
I think, um, we've touched on it a
tiny bit with about how under Fives
learn, um, some big questions that
they're kind of working through just
in themselves is the idea of am I safe
and am I able, and I think actually.
The Bible touches on both of those
things that, um, you know, we are,
we are safe in God and, um, that,
that, you know, we are able to know
and to love God and to grow in that.
And so I think, um, yeah, under fives
are really craving those things.
So if you also create a ministry
environment where the children feel
safe, where they feel comfortable, um,
in the way that you are teaching them the
Bible, but also in the way that you are.
Um, showing them God's love
through your actions and the
way you're caring for them.
I think that that's actually
a really big step too.
Of course, we wanna be explicitly
teaching Bible content as
we've kind of all brought up.
But I think also we know that, uh, the
way that we act towards others is a huge
reflection of God's love and children
can learn so much about God by the way
that we as, um, ministry workers, um.
Treat them as well.
Um, so keeping kids safe
is, is a huge thing.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
and making them feel comfortable in the
space, then they actually will be more
likely to come back and engage and learn.
And, um, all of those great
things that we wanna see.
Um.
As well.
And I think, um, kids of this
age are super, um, they just
wanna explore everything.
Um, and so I think that we
can really lean into that in
the under fives, uh, ministry.
Uh, I think there are so many
fun, creative ways that we can
learn about the Bible together.
might look like sitting down
and reading a storybook.
And I think that that's
a great place to start.
But I'd really encourage people to, to
like just watch a child for a little
while, watch the way that they do things.
They love to play, they love to imagine.
Um, and so being able to
incorporate some of those different.
Creative devices or storytelling devices
into the way that you do children's
ministry, I think is super effective too.
Um, so it might look like getting
out some little toys and doing
a small world play about Jesus.
It might look like, um, using a
craft to help tell your story.
I think, um, we asked the
question before of like, how
much Bible should we be teaching?
And I think we often think
of that in the way that.
I can't see how a 4-year-old is gonna
sit down for a 10 minute Bible talk.
You
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
right.
They might not do that, so
consider where they're at.
Um, but you know, we can
teach the Bible through song.
So have a time of, of singing.
Then you can do whatever
your explicit Bible time is.
Then you might do a craft, then
you might do some playing together.
Then just in free play time, maybe
you just bring it up in conversation.
Like there are lots of
little ways that we can.
Uh, teach children, um, the Bible beyond,
uh, just sitting down because I think
we all know that we might not get kids
to sit for a super long amount of time,
and that could be discouraging if, if
that's how you're going into things.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: And I think
one of the things that you just picked
up on in terms of children want to
know that they're safe and have those
relationships, um, you know, there's.
The model of faith formation that talks
about the first step in that, or the first
style is like an experienced faith, and
that's one of the beautiful, rich things
that, you know, you've just described
that as we are forming these beautifully
safe close relationships with children
as we're taking the time to get at their
level, to know them as individuals and
to pray with them and to sing with them,
and to teach them the Bible and to.
Talk about it as we play.
It just shows them what faith looks like,
and they're such sponges at that age.
They're not critically thinking about
it and questioning it like, you know,
our older kids and teenagers are, but
they're able to look at us as their
leaders and as their caregivers and
say, well, that's what a Christian is.
I guess I can be that too, without
even realizing that they're doing
it yet, because they're seeing it.
They're exploring it, they're
giving it a try, and that's such a.
Rich experience even of itself.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
Yeah, that's so true.
And that element of safety
being relational as well is
so key to that age group.
I love that you've touched on that.
Um.
I think it would be awesome to hear some,
uh, more examples of what the ministry
to under fives can, um, look like.
I think it, it can be quite different
given different context, but I
think Megan, you touched on a few
great things just then about, um.
Like the age of the child and actually
having the right expectations, like
having some kind of understanding
of what's developmentally
appropriate is really helpful.
Um, because children aren't gonna
sit down and listen to a mini sermon.
Um, I mean, I know a lot of
adults who don't love the sermon.
That's not their favorite
part about coming to church.
But as we recognize in a normal
church service, you were saying
there are many elements intentionally
so that are teaching moments.
Um, and so yeah, grasping onto
some of those teaching moments
that you might have with the kids.
Um, do you guys have any more
great examples or encouragement
of teaching moments even?
I think in hearing you speak Eliza
about the importance of that the
children experiencing the faith of
the leader, for instance, um, that
almost gives like great responsibility.
Um, to the leader as well to ensure that
they're actually living that faith, like
the fact that the kids are watching that.
Um, so I guess I'm curious to hear
if you have any examples, either
good or bad, of what you've observed.
Um, yeah.
Any moments where you've been
like, oh, child's picked that up
from me as being Christian and I
didn't realize I was doing that.
Um, or even, yeah, just positive
moments where they picked up stuff
like, oh, Christians are kind
'cause you're always kind to me.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: I think, um, an
example I have that jumps to mind straight
away, not necessarily about seeing.
The Christian character, but the
Christian understanding shaping their
world is one of the strategies I use,
um, in the curriculum that I write.
And the way that I teach kids is
summing up the whole term with
one key repeated truth that we
want the kids to clinging to.
And so doing a term about creation,
the whole term, every week, I'll
say to the kids, God is so powerful.
He made everything.
And so then as we look at
the different things, they're
understanding that God made it all.
He's powerful.
And then when we look at sin, I kind
of summed that up with, you know, sin
broke God's good world because kids
have understood that God made the world,
he made it good 'cause he's powerful.
But sin broke it.
And I saw this playing out
one day in that, like my
daughter Alice, she started at.
Beautiful community preschool,
and it wasn't a Christian context,
but they're very environmentally
friendly and so lots of teaching
about sustainability and rubbish
and recycling and all those things.
And one day we were just walking down the
road together, holding hands and chatting,
and all of a sudden she saw rubbish.
And she looked at it and she
stopped and she said, mom, someone
has broken God's good world.
And I was just like, oh.
So she's got this Christian foundation
from her understanding of God made
the world and he made it good,
but sin broke God's good world.
And then she's experienced this
worldview teaching of rubbish is
bad and she's managed to put them
together in this beautiful, rich way
that I think more and more kids are,
you know, if we are giving them those
strong foundations, that's what's.
Possible.
That's what they're capable of,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311:
interpreting their whole world
through this lens of Christianity
and the Bible, and that's amazing.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Thank you.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
one that comes to mind for me,
we did, um, a term on parables.
Um, and this is where I particularly
love the idea of learning through play.
It's a really big concept within early
childhood in general, and I think it
lends itself so well for a church context
as well for this under fives ministry.
Um, so we were looking at the lost sheep.
And so we had little sheep figurines
and as we sat down, um, here's a, a
little, uh, practical tip for you.
If you don't think that your children
will be able to sit down altogether for
a Bible talk, and it doesn't work every
time, but we do, um, bki and Bible time.
So we hand out little arrow root
biscuits, um, and so the kids
know we all sit down together.
It's a little bit of an
incentive to sit down.
Maybe
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311:
do the same thing.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
it won't, but it is very
helpful a lot of the time.
Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: so
we've sat down to do our bian bible time.
I've got these little sheep figurines.
Um, and, you know, we
counted out a couple of them.
They wandered off and, um,
I hid one behind my back.
Uh, and then a couple of the sheep came
back, but one of them had gone missing.
So then we got up and we
walked around the room and I'd.
some other sheep around the room.
And we talked about the lost sheep.
And we all, um, you know, celebrated and
said hooray when the sheep came back.
And then a really short little,
you know, um, we are lost from God.
Um, our sin makes us lost from God,
but God finds us and brings us into
his family and there's a party, there's
a celebration when we are found.
And so that's what we did in that moment.
Um, I then left those little
figurines out for the children to do.
Whatever they wish to do with them.
Some of it was just picking
it up and making sheep noises.
But one child, um, particularly kept
coming over to me and he would hold
the sheep out in front and then he'd
put it behind his back, drop it,
bring his hands back out in front
of him and go, it's lost, it's gone.
We have to find the sheep.
So then we'd go around the room, find
the sheep, have a celebration together.
Um, and we did this for like.
10 minutes.
It was a lot of fun and very repetitive,
but it just really opened my eyes
up to the, the play and the, the
joy that, you know, we can have when
we do these things with children.
And, um, I thought in the moment he
probably doesn't completely understand
the entire theological depths of
this story, and that's okay because.
God willing, he is at step one of his
time in church and will have many, many,
many years to continue to understand this
story, but right now what he knows is
that there is something that was lost.
It was found and then it was
celebrated, and he can start to
apply that to himself as well.
Um, and so that example I often
think of, and I think it's a one
that continues to encourage me to
think this is why it's worthwhile.
This is why children's ministry
to this age is worthwhile.
They might not get it in,
its in its complete fullness.
I don't get God's word
in its complete fullness.
And I will continue to grow in
that for many, many years to come.
Being able to just start somewhere
and to just begin to, again, those,
those foundations that we keep
talking about, start to lay it down.
Um, that's why I love the whole learning
through play, getting the children
to, to get up and, and to practically
get involved in, in what's happening.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah, that's really, really helpful.
Thanks Negan.
Um, and the concept of learning
through play is so familiar to people
in early years, um, but I wonder if
it is familiar to all kids ministers.
In a sense of, I think your example
really helpfully outlines what
learning through play can look like.
So it's not just, it might
sound like a wishy-washy term.
It's not just letting the kids out
in the playground to do whatever.
Um, you can tell from what Megan
was saying, that she's come
intentionally with a story.
She's resourced the environment with
the toys with which she's telling the
story, and then she's allowed time
and space for the kids to then explore
those ideas with the same toys and
things that she's actually been using.
And so it's not a matter of just, oh
yeah, off you go, kids go and play.
But it's actually thinking intentionally
about the modeling and the environment
that the kids are in and the resources
that they're given, um, to be able
to play with, to explore those ideas.
Um, yeah.
Thank you.
That's really helpful.
What would you say to someone who
listens to this podcast and says, all
right, I'm convinced, uh, we really
need to think more intentionally
about our under fives ministry and
what that looks like in our church.
Um, what's a simple first step
or first sort of tip that you'd
give someone to think about?
I actually really love Megan.
Early on, uh, since we've been talking,
you said something about just sit and
watch the kids for a little bit and you'll
understand how kids learn and how they
see the world and how curious they are.
Um, and I remember that being really
forming for me as an early years teacher,
that first prac where all I had to do
or what I was focused on for that prac
was actually just writing observations
of the kids and where we thought
they might be at in their learning.
Um.
and that was so helpful
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
because not everyone that does children's
ministry and particularly children's
ministry to under fives is a parent.
I'll
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
fully at that stage yet of
having my own child go through.
That, you know, that time.
Um, and for the many, many years
before having my bub, I was just
kind of guessing it felt like.
And so I think that it is a really
great thing to do, to be able to
just know what kids are capable of.
Um, also just practically.
Can they hold a pencil?
Do they know how to do this, do that.
Um, and I think the way that we often
start our time together, um, as well as it
being a space that can just kind of start
as a, a safe place for the kids to feel.
Comfortable before just diving
straight into a program is
having a bit of free play.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Mm-hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
so setting
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
space, they come in, you can, you
just join them where they're at.
If they wanna play with cars, sit
down with them and play with cars.
Um, I think building that connection
over time and also, yeah, you get to see.
What the children are
practically capable of.
But you also, through those conversations
and, and building those relationships,
you're seeing where they're at with, with
God too, where their understanding is at.
And you can probably use that to, um, to
feed into your, into the way you teach,
what particularly might wanna teach on.
And I think that's a helpful
thing to do with any.
of children's ministry, chat to your
kids, know them on a, on a personal level.
Just, you know, not just as,
you know, someone who I download
information to Actually get to know
them, to know where they're at.
Um, and let that, you know, yeah.
Change the way or, or inform the
way that you do your ministry.
I think that's really important
for our younger years as well.
Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Mm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
it, it, it, it shows them
that you care for them too.
It shows them that
you've taken the time to.
Um, build a relationship with them.
Um, and again, that's all a
reflection of, of the love that God
has for us in the way that we love
and care for our children as well.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: And I
think those little steps when we
can show people that we know that.
Little people of our church, it speaks
volumes to their parents as well, which,
you know, let's be real for a minute.
Zero to five's.
A big part of what we are doing
too is building trust with parents.
These are their precious little
people that sometimes, you know,
kids church will be their first
time they've ever been cared for.
By not their family, they might not be
in daycare or, um, go anywhere else.
And so showing that we know them and that
we care about them, that they're gonna be
safe and really well cared for in the time
that they're with us, is so important and
a real, um, reflection of Christ's love,
um, for them and their parents, you know.
Yes, we are so much more than babysitting,
but we do wanna also have the parents
in the back of our mind because
they're gonna be better equipped to
engage in church if they don't have
this niggle in the back of their brain
of, is my kid really okay out there?
You know, if they can go, yep, my
kid is known, my kid is loved, then
the whole family is benefiting too.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Mm
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yes.
Yes.
I love that that even builds that secure
relationship safety aspect of connection,
um, for the adults and then being able
to learn as well, um, in the environment.
That's beautiful.
Um, it also made me think
a little bit about, um,
how you, when you're modeling
those relationships, the impact
that it has on the broader church.
I love how you said that when you're.
Actually modeling, being able to
connect with those kids and interacting
really well and loving them well.
It reminds the rest of the congregation.
These kids are a part of our congregation.
They're a part of our church, um,
and they are dear, loved and known.
Um,
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
one question that I Oh yeah, sorry.
Go Eliza.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: I was just
gonna say one of the things that, um,
I've started doing with our, particularly
our zero to 3-year-old group, it's been
a newer group started for our church,
and so I've done a few kids spots about.
What they're actually capable
of, and that we're not just
babysitting, but they're learning.
And we've actually made,
um, little stickers.
So every week, um, with the individual
story, we put an image on the wall.
So throughout the term, they're
building this visual representation to
remind them of what they've learning.
But I then have made
a little tiny sticker.
That the kids get, that
matches that wall picture.
And there's two reasons for it.
One is I did it for the first term
for fun, and very quickly one of
my little ones walked in the room
every week and would say, sticker.
And I went, okay, this
can't stop after one term.
This is now the expectation.
Every week they're gonna get a
sticker when they come to Bible time.
Um.
But the second thing is that it
tells the church family look out
for a little person after church
with a sticker, and it gives them
something they can talk to them about.
And so when the different generations
of church want to engage with each
other, but don't necessarily always know
where to start or what to say, because.
Particularly under threes don't
always have a lot of language.
It just has been a simple connection
point so they can point out their sticker
and try and engage with them about,
you know, what's on it or what they've
learned or just start a conversation.
That's been a really, hopefully a
helpful tool that we can continue
to build on those church family
connections and relationships.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
Yeah, connecting the people
of multi-generations is
definitely a challenge,
. Five.
I think it's natural for people
who are not used to ministry to
under fives to think of challenges.
But I'm curious about, um, you guys,
since you've been intentionally
focused on ministry to under
fives for such time, um, yeah.
What, what challenges do you find
still arise, uh, in your roles?
Um, yeah.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
And what things have you Yeah.
Managed to overcome or how
have you overcome them?
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308: I
do think one of the initial challenges,
and Eliza started to touch on this is,
um, it might be the first space that
children are away from their parents.
And that's really hard.
It's hard not just for the kids, but
it's hard for the parents as well.
And so I think it can be a real
challenge, um, when it is either a, a
new space, like they're just entering
into that age group or starting to have
that independence from their family,
um, or their families wanting them to
have that independence from them maybe.
Um, or if it's a new
church setting as well.
And so, um.
My advice with that because it
is, it continues to be hard.
I don't think there's any good way to
make it easier is, is for patients to
make it a space that, um, make those
opportunities for it to be comfortable
for both the child and the parent.
Um.
You know, if it, if it works,
let the parents stay for a couple
of weeks or for what they need.
Um, you know, if they've got
a toy that helps them to feel
comfortable, let that happen.
If them being in the space looks like
that, they stay for 10 minutes with
a parent or caregiver, and then they
need to go back, take that as a win,
um, and let it slowly build up that it
becomes a space that, um, they trust,
um, and people that they trust too.
And I think.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
It, it can be tricky, but having
consistency of leaders is another way
that's going to build that space up.
If a child, um, is seeing a new face
that they don't know every single week,
that does make it really hard for them.
But I do recognize the challenges, um,
in different ways that churches are set
up, that that isn't always possible,
um, to have the same faces every week.
Uh, and I think it's also then
on our leaders to be really
intentional when you are there to be.
Um, building relationships, um,
with the children and to be looking
out for the little ones that, that
maybe are finding it a bit tricky.
And then of course, encouraging the
other kids who are settled in that space
to be good friends, to be kind, to be
helpful, um, in helping others settle to.
So that would be one challenge
that I think continues to happen,
uh, in that space and, and
maybe some ways to help it out.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah, it might be a controversial
opinion, but, uh, do youth
really need consistent leaders?
Because Crche does, would be my opinion.
And so yeah, there are
consistent leaders serving.
Why is it that often it's Crche, um,
that gets the rotation of leaders.
I just encourage yeah, leadership to
think about that in churches as well.
Um, so thanks Megan.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Mm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
What about you, Eliza?
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: I think a
challenge that I've been observing in
the last 18 months since starting the
group I have at our current church is,
um, I guess the sometimes disappointment
that leaders can feel in not getting
a lot of feedback from the kids.
I think, you know, when you're doing
primary school or when you're doing, um,
high school, you obviously get a lot of.
Give and take from the kids and the
teenagers and there's conversations
and there's a lot of those things that
sometimes when you're sitting there
reading the story or doing the group time
with under fives, particularly the younger
end of that sphere, they're sitting
looking at you, not giving a lot back.
And I know some of my
leaders have said to me.
I'm doing the group time for
the leaders more than the
kids, and I'm like, no, no, no.
I promise you you're not like,
and yes, it can feel like that.
And it's just reminding ourselves and
reminding each other that that's not the
reality that these kids are learning.
They are taking it on board,
whether they're learning that.
Church is a safe place.
Whether they're learning that they
can be away from their parents as
well as them learning some truth
from the Bible and about God, more
is happening than what we can see.
And so I think, yeah, part of
the overcoming that challenge is
reminding ourselves of those truths.
It's um, I try and, you know, give
our stories, our team some good.
News stories, you know, at the end of the
term or throughout the term, just look,
this, this, and this has happened, or
this is some of the feedback we've gotten.
Just so even if they're not seeing
it, they're hearing it and going,
oh yeah, it is making a difference.
Um, I think another way to combat it
is making sure that, yeah, as fellow
leaders in the group, we do give the
leaders feedback in group time that we're,
you know, giving the kids next to us.
The nudge or helping them to
be that practical engagement.
So it feels less like a show and more
like a community of learning together.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah.
And the benefit of having those
other leaders participating is that
they're modeling what that active
participation looks like to, to the kids.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311:
Yeah, definitely.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
so rather than, yeah, the kids learning
that it's a consumer approach to church,
they're actually going, oh, okay.
This is what we do.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Mm.
This is what a Christian looks like.
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Love it.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
enjoy coming in.
I'm not always in, um, the CR space.
I kind of jump around a few
different spaces on Sunday, but.
I must admit it's my
favorite place to pop into.
but I love coming in at the
end, um, of, you know, a morning
and saying, what did you learn?
And a lot of the time,
you know what I get, ah.
I don't know, 95% of the time I
know what the program is because
I've looked at it beforehand.
So then I'll feed like little
bits of information to be
like, oh, what about this?
What about that?
Or just ask like, little questions.
And so I think that there is a real,
um, benefit to all the leaders knowing
what are we talking about today?
And being prepared with
just a little question.
Um, you know, having that big idea
in their head and saying to the kids.
What did you think about this?
Or what did you learn about that?
And being prepared for the, I don't know,
and having something to just prompt their
memory a little bit, um, to engage them.
Because when the children are prompted,
often they will remember or having a craft
or the stickers that you said, I love
that idea so much, Eliza, because when
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
Hmm.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
I don't know, they can look at
their sticker and, you know, be
reminded of, of a little bit.
Um, and so I think, yeah, that's a really
wonderful way too, that we can, um.
Yeah.
Engage with the kids and, and combat
some of the ideas that they aren't
taking anything away from this.
They are, they just maybe need a
little bit of help remembering.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Yeah,
and I think, um, oh, I try really
hard to give an outline to our
parents at the start of the term two.
Um, and like I touched on
earlier, I have one big phrase
that sums up the terms teaching.
And we say that phrase.
Every single week, multiple times.
And so the parents know, hopefully
if they've read the sheet,
they know what that phrase is.
It's on the wall.
So every leader in the room
knows what that phrase is.
And so it's just equipping each
other, equipping the families,
equipping us as a team to be
able to reinforce that learning.
And we have actions that
go with that saying.
So even if sometimes.
You do the actions, it prompts that memory
of, oh, yep, that is what I learned.
I can do this.
Yeah.
So good.
Well, that's the end of my formal
. Um, Megan, if you have some resources, you
were just saying that you have some great
resources, um, that you'd love to share,
particularly for under Five's ministry.
meagan-guest525_1_07-22-2025_162308:
for sure.
Um, so these were just helpful for
me when I was writing my program.
Um, the program that I've written,
I've chosen to do a three year cycle
program because age group often changes,
you know, with who's in there quite
quickly, and it's very repetitive
and I think that that works as well.
For this age group.
Um, but some of the resources that I
found helpful, um, just beginning to think
about this group, um, raising Disciples.
It's an Instagram handle by Leah.
Um, she some wonderful,
wonderful information out there.
Scroll all the way back to the beginning
of her Instagram feed and just.
Look at all her posts.
I can't recommend it highly enough,
particularly thinking about what
are some practical ways that I
could teach to this age group.
So that's raising disciples.
Um, another one is called Baby Devotions.
This is a, um, a woman called Kayla,
I believe she's based in the us.
Um, and so she has both, um,
English and Spanish based, um.
Material, but her stuff is
also really good for if you're
interested in sensory play.
Um, I could do a whole podcast thinking
about sensory play in ministry, but
we won't go a deep dive into that.
Super, super helpful as well as reviews.
Um.
For different books, movies,
um, episodes, things like that.
So great.
Not just for if you are, um, involved
in kids' ministry as a leader, but
maybe if you're a parent trying to think
about how you might do ministry for
your children at home, I would really
recommend, um, that was baby devotions.
eliza_1_07-22-2025_162311: Excellent
and another really good one, it's a
newer one, it's an Instagram account.
Again, it's called Lift Their Eyes,
um, discipleship Resources for Kids.
It is family based ideas, but
definitely resources as well that
are helpful and useful for church and
just, yeah, they are thinking really
carefully about what it looks like too.
Raise kids eyes to see God
and to understand his word
and how it fits together.
So another good one to check out.
effectiveministrypodcast-host908_1_07-22-2025_162310:
yeah, we hope that you've
got a lot from this podcast.
We'll post the links to those, um,
accounts in the information below, so
feel free to follow those up as well.
Um, and also feel free to contact
us at YouthWorks if you have any
more questions or suggestions.
We'd love to hear from you.
Well, thanks so much Megan
and Eliza for your welcomed
input and wisdom in this area.
It's been great to hear from you both.
And to be encouraged by the
examples that you've given.
Also, just a reminder as we
finish today's episode, that house
conference is coming up soon.
So if you are living on the
Sydney coast and are keen to
come, make sure you register.
House conference is a conference for
ministry practitioners seeking to have an
effective youth and children's ministry.
We would love to see you there.