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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Andy Miller III: Well, I am delighted to have on the podcast Greg, Stover, who? Greg, I believe you come from the Allegheny Conference. Is that correct?
Gregory Stover: That's correct. Allegheny West.
Andy Miller III: Great.
Gregory Stover: Thank you for the opportunity to be here on the more of the story podcast.
Andy Miller III: Thank you. Yeah. It's okay. If you had to think about the name for a second.
Gregory Stover: Yeah, I did. I did.
Andy Miller III: People's minds. But I appreciate you taking time to be with us, and it's been a real honor for me, I I said said to some of our staff here at Wesley Biblical Seminary that even if nobody listens to these videos, it has been a blessing to me to be able to have an opportunity to engage all 9 candidates. So so thank you. Thanks for your time.
Gregory Stover: You're welcome.
Andy Miller III: So this 1st question comes with a timer. And actually one of the candidates who I've already interviewed didn't believe me when I started to time. I'm gonna say him. So
Andy Miller III: I'm going to start the timer, though. Could you give us a 2 min version of how you came to know Christ.
Gregory Stover: Sure. I was raised in a Christian home. I think I was baptized as an infant, but I've never been able to determine that, for sure, but when I was about 7 years old our family was attending a Baptist church, we went to a revival meeting one night, and I was sitting between my mom and dad, and when the altar call was given I said to my mom.
Gregory Stover: I think I ought to go there, and she said, Why? And I said, I just think I should, and the only thing I understand is that I think I wanted to follow Jesus so my heart was open. Well, if you fast forward into my teen years, you know I never was a bad kid at all. I didn't get in a lot of trouble. But I I had this growing feeling that that I wasn't where I needed to be with God.
Gregory Stover: And then I came to a Sunday school class at my home. Church was Grace Methodist Church in Hamilton, Ohio, at the time, and the question came up in the discussion, What's God's will for you? And I was always popping up to say something, and I said, You know I don't think God cares who we marry or what job we have. Just so we keep. Keep the 10 Commandments and try to be good.
Gregory Stover: Well, my my fellow students just sort of leapt upon me, as did the teacher, and and really helped me get a perspective on surrendering my will to God, and I did that shortly after, and when that happened, I remember distinctly coming away from that altar, believing, number one that I was forgiven. Number 2, that I just had this deep sense that I was in connection with God.
Gregory Stover: and even though I would have told you at the time I'm not going to do evangelism. I found it hard to keep my mouth shut
Gregory Stover: now. I didn't have much theology to go around any of that at that point, and if there were time I could go into that. But I really think that's sort of a two-step process, how I came to Christ and began to walk the Christian life.
Andy Miller III: Beautiful I I love. I love this picture kind of like thinking of these various phases that happen, but also the way that God is at work ahead of us, and kind of preparing the ground.
Gregory Stover: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Interesting in this moment of for our denomination is the way that we differentiate ourselves. And and I I had. There's a way that I push back on that a certain degree like I want to be connected to the broad evangelical movement. But at the same time, there's a a point of
Andy Miller III: of highlighting distinctives. So I'm curious, Greg, if you could give us a 3 min, one more minute this time a 3 min overview of what makes a Wesley and Christian a Wesleyan Christian.
Gregory Stover: That's that's a good question.
Gregory Stover: I think I want to begin where I kind of ended my testimony without using the word. But I think one of the unique features of our understanding of salvation as Wesleyans is that it's a journey. I have a friend who comes from Baptist background, and he's deeply concerned at this point, because he feels like
Gregory Stover: there are a lot of people that are being saved in the Baptist Church, and not much discipleship, at least in his experience. So I don't want to cast aspersions on the whole Baptist movement, but that's been his report, and in Wesleyan Christianity we see
Gregory Stover: salvation as a journey that God is at work in before we ever come to, before we even can speak God's name, and He brings us along to the point of justification, new birth, and then into the work of sanctification. So one of the real Wesleyan distinctives is our understanding that that Christian life is not intended to end. When we can say, I'm saved.
Gregory Stover: it moves on toward holiness, which is perfect love, we say, or it is love for God and love for our neighbor, and that there's there is this process of growth that really never ends in this life.
Gregory Stover: and that's a dynamic and powerful inspiration for discipleship. The other thing that I want to say about there are many other distinctives for Wesleyans, but the other one I want to mention is our emphasis on pervenient grace, and on the the juncture of free grace and cooperating grace, as
Gregory Stover: Collins would say, or responsible graces, Maddox would say, and that I just think that that Wesley was genius in the way he expressed pervenient grace the way God is always working in our lives, even before we're aware of them, and I could go deeper into this, but it seems to me that provenient grace really enables us to not have God's sovereignty
Gregory Stover: get bound up in His foreknowledge around predestination. It it frees, it frees our understanding of God theologically to be able to say, God can know, and yet God can choose to restore a measure of our freedom. Now there's much more to say, but we'll stop there.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, it certainly helps us move against some of the Pelagian type of tendencies that can exist or semi Pelagian.
Gregory Stover: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Tendencies which would suggest like. I was at a table one time at a rotary club before, when I was serving as a Salvation army officer and I knew around the table there was a Baptist and a Methodist on the other side, and they were trying to figure out they're just like businessmen trying to. Well, what's the difference, anyways? And finally the Methodist said, I know what it is. I mean, you think you what you guys think he's talking to Baptist.
Gregory Stover: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Is that God chooses you, he said. But what we Methodists think is that we choose God. And I wanted to jump across the table and say, Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! No, that's not it, that's not it. But I mean that, can it can be simplified in that way. But that misses what the way that we would at the way that historically and classically, the Western tradition emphasizes pervenient grace.
Gregory Stover: That's right, that it's all from God.
Gregory Stover: it's all from God. And yet by this this
Gregory Stover: pervenience of grace, it allows it to be with our response as well. And it's a true response, not one that's dictated to us.
Andy Miller III: Right? Right? Absolutely. I love, I mean, and and those who are listening to you can see the way that you're nuancing those words very particularly to highlight these distinctions. So I I appreciate that. I think that each of those words are important and and have ramifications down the road. So yeah, thank you for that. It's a great answer. I appreciate it, Greg.
Andy Miller III: I'm curious as you're
Andy Miller III: where we are with the legislation just to acknowledge. And and I, I do have an interview that's coming out with Jay Tharrell to talk about the hybrid or Florida plan, so like the opportunity where you are. One of the 9 candidates to apply for this position is, if a certain legislation goes forward for these 2 year, Bishop. So I just acknowledge that.
Andy Miller III: But you've been nominated. You've been nominated and you accepted the nomination. So I'm just curious why you accepted that nomination for this leadership role.
Gregory Stover: Andy. I think it's in part because of broader things that have happened in my life.
Gregory Stover: From early on, in my, in my ministry I had been given some opportunities to serve at conference, and then general church levels. I always had an interest in that because of the ability to give guidance to a denomination.
Gregory Stover: and over time I became one of the voices in the Evangelical Movement, most especially in our annual conference, and really the leader of that, and out of that there was a nomination to the Episcopacy. In fact, I was a candidate 2 times, so I'm part of the great fellowship of the unelected.
Gregory Stover: But I also sensed at that, at some fairly early point in that there was just this little thing inside of me, wondering if
Gregory Stover: this might be something that God had in store for me. Well, it didn't happen obviously in the United Methodist Church, and and I've been fine with that. I didn't think it would ever come up again. So I was very surprised when the Allegheny West Annual Conference lifted me up as a potential nominee and then forwarded my name.
Gregory Stover: I and my initial
Gregory Stover: was to back away.
Gregory Stover: But then I felt like God was saying, let it play out, be a part of it, and let it play out. I think that I bring to this 1st of all a couple of things that will be helpful in the Episcopacy. 1st of all.
Gregory Stover: I think I have some gifts in the area of teaching, and we really do need to be teaching our people and our clergy, even our doctrine, our DNA those sorts of things. The second thing that I would say briefly is that I think I have some good experience in in being able to coach
Gregory Stover: other presiding elders being able to coach annual conferences, as they're forming cabinets forming structure. I think I bring some some experience to that, and for those reasons I thought I ought to at least let my name go forward and see if this really is God's call.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it sounds good. Yeah. I I didn't know that about you that you had been nominated to serve in that role in the past in the the umc, so that's that's interesting. So like this in, there's a way that this is familiar ground. Could you tell me about like though I'm sure it's very different. The difference in that process when you're doing it in the Umc. Compared to your experience. Now.
Gregory Stover: Well, Andy.
Gregory Stover: we're really hoping and praying and trying to make this a different experience. And you may be aware, in the United Methodist Church. The Episcopacy became a deeply political process. There were campaigns put together, there was enormous tension that went on around the election
Gregory Stover: of of Episcopal Episcopal candidates, and
Gregory Stover: we have really tried to set a tone in this particular time that those of us who are nominees we're not in competition with each other. Obviously we all have certain desires and things, but we're really hoping that the temperature can be turned down, that we can listen to one another, and then that the Holy Spirit will help the Conference to discern.
Gregory Stover: Who it is that are being called to give this kind of leadership at this time.
Gregory Stover: So so I really the other thing that's very different at this juncture Andy, is that
Gregory Stover: one of the reasons that I was nominated in previous times was to represent the evangelical voice in the church, which was desperately needed, and one of the joys this time it doesn't matter which. One of us are elected
Gregory Stover: to the Episcopacy. I am confident, confident that every one of us have deep and deep and lasting commitments to the orthodox gospel, to the Scripture.
Gregory Stover: and to lifting up Christ.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah, I've sensed that from all of you, and even I I knew a few. I know a few of the candidates from you know, past experience.
Gregory Stover: And says.
Andy Miller III: And so what I be when this opportunity came, and you all decided that it would, you would all agree to come on this podcast I was honored by that. And at the same time I thought, Well, I'm
Andy Miller III: kind of in a busy stage of my life as a just, newly elected president of Wbs. But I was tempted to say, All right. Here's how we're gonna do it. I'm gonna have all 9 of you on at one time, or I'm gonna have 3 and 3. But I I really wanted to resist that because I've sensed from all of you a a non political tone.
Andy Miller III: and I didn't want that to be. I didn't want there to be a direct contrast, and answers, well, this person said pervenient Grace 5 times, and this person said it once. You know I don't. I don't really want that. And and maybe because in the United States, right now, we're living in a very political environment. I just wanted to avoid that. So that's part of why I went ahead and took 9 h to to have these interviews.
Andy Miller III: And and I it's been. It's been a delight to do that. I'm interested. Greg, as we're working through this. Oh, go ahead! Did you want to say something there? Sorry.
Gregory Stover: Say anything, go ahead.
Andy Miller III: Great I just I heard a little noise. I wanted to make sure. If if you want.
Gregory Stover: And jump in.
Andy Miller III: Considering the the proposed legislation calls for 2 year interim bishops.
Andy Miller III: and that same legislation establishes an assembly of bishops.
Andy Miller III: What do you think that assembly of bishops should work on should try to do in these 2 years before full time. Bishops are elected in 2,026.
Gregory Stover: I think there's several things that we that need to be focused on 1st of all. And obviously I've mentioned this before.
Gregory Stover: But I think the assembly of bishops, collectively and individually, needs to be really focused on communicating the DNA of the Global Methodist Church, and that DNA includes it includes, 1st of all, the the teaching of orthodox Christian faith and of Wesleyan Christian faith. There are one of the things I've run into is that
Gregory Stover: there are many of our congregations where people seem to be more deeply influenced by what they hear on Christian radio, which tends to be reformed in orientation than than the beauties of our own Wesleyan faith.
Gregory Stover: So I think that at every level, from pastors to lay people there, there's a need to teaching that faith. The second piece of that DNA is the recovery of of what Wesley called social religion, which was not social action at all or not primarily it was growing in community together in accountable community. And
Gregory Stover: I have 2 concerns in that area. One is that we need to. We need to help people move forward with being truly open and vulnerable when they meet together to pray and to study. And
Gregory Stover: and we need to make sure, or we need to encourage people to be doing both that and reading of Scripture, because there are many Christians that that could really grow in their understanding of Scripture being accountable to one another can never be more strong than the understanding of our scriptural foundations, otherwise it can be
Gregory Stover: people leading one another astray if we don't have a strong foundation. And the 3rd piece of that DNA is setting the DNA that we are to be a church. We want to be a church in in mission to the world, most especially focused on evangelism and new church starts, and that we we really need to.
Gregory Stover: That's a new concept to so many of our congregations and smaller congregations. Think, well, how could I ever do that? And and there are ways they can be engaged. And we're gonna need. We're gonna need many, many new church starts. So that's the 1st part of my answer. The second part will be a little bit of repetitious, but I think that the assembly of bishops. There's 2 more assembly of bishops needs to lift up the unity of the Church, and remind us that whatever differences we may have
Gregory Stover: at convening conference or general conferences, that that we're one in Christ, and we are one in our understanding of who Christ is and the salvation he brings. And then the final item, I would say, is, I think, that Assembly has a real role to play in onboarding new annual conferences and helping them form effective structures, and being encouragers of being coaches along the way for that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that that seems like a very important task in in the realizing that there is more to come. And there probably are many more churches that come on, and annual conferences too. Where do you? What's your? Where's your sense of where those conferences will come from?
Gregory Stover: I think we're going to have a number of other annual conferences from Africa.
Gregory Stover: There's there's a number of annual conferences that are at various points in decision making.
Gregory Stover: For example, some have withdrawn from the United Methodist Church. But we don't know they've made a final decision. If they're coming global because, global Methodist or not, I would expect there'll be some more conferences in the Philippines, and.
Gregory Stover: like Panama, has come. Perhaps there will be some other congregations in the Caribbean or the Latin American world that will ultimately come this way. I'm not on the inside track on those things, but
Gregory Stover: and I I think we're probably, unless annual conferences grow to where they're too large and need to be divided, that
Gregory Stover: there'll be a few more in the United States, perhaps, but we're probably getting close there. But again, I don't have the inside track on that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Now, this question might not be formed. Well, but just come up in my mind, and and this is maybe the advantage of you being the 7, th can candidate that I've interviewed. But do you think that this plan for the general superintendency model
Andy Miller III: creates a better environment for bringing in other conferences? Or would the kind of the hybrid plan would that do a better job? It seems like there might be some advantage to this general superintendency model. But maybe I'm wrong on that. And and you're you're probably more connected to what these ideas are as a whole. But I just if you don't mind giving a comment on that. I'd appreciate it.
Gregory Stover: People.
Gregory Stover: Well.
Gregory Stover: I do think that the General superintendents, general superintendency model is a good one. Now let me be candid to say, when I 1st heard that that was the direction that the recommendation was going. I was, I was skeptical, and and part of that part of that, I think, was just that we are so used to residential bishops
Gregory Stover: when we were in the United Methodist Church. But as I've seen this operate in our own conference, we have a relationship with Bishop Webb, and as I've heard about how it operates in other annual conferences, I think the general superintendency really does free bishops to do work that they would not have time to do otherwise. And in direct response to your question, I think that the general superintendency model will free bishops
Gregory Stover: from much of the day to day, work in annual conferences, so they can concentrate on what sometimes is complex work of bringing a new conference along.
Andy Miller III: Thank you.
Gregory Stover: Excuse me.
Andy Miller III: No problem. And I'll just highlight. Greg. I appreciate you doing this interview now in light of fact, that you just found out that you have Covid, and we.
Gregory Stover: And stuck through. So if.
Andy Miller III: Well, I'll give you the opportunity. You said your voice might be a little froggy, so that thanks.
Gregory Stover: I think.
Andy Miller III: For sticking with.
Gregory Stover: Just let just let me cough every now and again.
Andy Miller III: Good. You're good.
Andy Miller III: One of the things, obviously, as people are coming into this movement, that there's this moment where we realize what has happened in the past came as a result of a doctrine of revelation. In part I. That's my my sort of that. And then accountability to that doctrine of revelation. But how do how do you understand the inspiration and authority of Scripture? And why is that so important for the global Methodist Church right now.
Gregory Stover: Sure. Well, I'll I'll preface this by saying it's important to every church, but it is particularly important to us.
Gregory Stover: I understand that God's revelation that one of the ways God's revelation has come. In addition to the Word in capital letters, Jesus Christ
Gregory Stover: is that God has spoken through by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, spoken through various persons down through Biblical history.
Gregory Stover: and God has spoken in a way that that God's truth has been conveyed to them, so that it can be conveyed through their writings and through the corpus of the Scripture as a whole
Gregory Stover: to us, so that we know God's character. We know God's plan of salvation. We know we know God's holiness, and where God wants to lead us.
Gregory Stover: I really like the language that's in the articles of religion and the confession of faith that that really focuses on the truthfulness of Scripture so, and and its truthfulness, particularly as it's related
Gregory Stover: to those things that are necessary for us to know, to know God's salvation. So the articles of religion say that the Scripture contains all things that are necessary for our salvation, so that there's nothing that can be taught is necessary for salvation. That isn't in the Scripture. I guess that's a pretty close paraphrase, and and the eub articles of.
Gregory Stover: or confession of faith, define Scripture as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. If one of the things that did happen to us, at least, I believe, is that that the view of what Scripture is became muddied, and it became muddied, and it it, the Scripture, became to be viewed in too many places as
Gregory Stover: one of several sources of authority.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Gregory Stover: The true Wesleyan concept that Scripture is the authority, and we have several means that help us to interpret Scripture.
Gregory Stover: And this is critical, because if you don't have kind of a North Star.
Gregory Stover: if you don't have a north star that enables you to discern the the variety of teachings that we're going to meet in ministry down through time, the the shifting winds of of moral commitments in the world.
Gregory Stover: Then we're left adrift with only our experience or the testimony of someone else to help guide us. And so it's very easy for individual Christians to get off base, and it's also possible for churches to drift
Gregory Stover: to drift from the commitments that are represented in the Scripture.
Gregory Stover: So I'm I'm deeply committed to the authority of Scripture and its practical value in teaching Christian life.
Gregory Stover: What's it saying? Scripture is valuable for correction and training and reproof and training in righteousness.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely. Many of the many of the groups that are serving the Gmc. Like Wbs. Asbury Theological Seminary use language that say that follows the Luzon covenant, that the Bible is without air, and all that it affirms. At Wbs. We subscribe to the.
Gregory Stover: No.
Andy Miller III: So now.
Andy Miller III: Gago. Statement on inerrancy. Are you comfortable with that language?
Gregory Stover: I'm comfortable with people who use that language. I
Gregory Stover: I just never tended to move in that way. And here's why
Gregory Stover: it seems to me that throughout Church history there has been the testimony of Christians that the Scripture is entirely truthful.
Gregory Stover: And then you have this Wesleyan view, that it's it's truthful in all it claims, and that it is truthful in all that is necessary for our faith and our life together, and our living of Christian faith.
Gregory Stover: The word inerrancy
Gregory Stover: arose later in Christian history, in in my understanding.
Gregory Stover: And it's pointing toward truthfulness, but it easily carries baggage
Gregory Stover: that you then have to parse out when you use that language. It's baggage that can sometimes move us toward a kind of literalism
Gregory Stover: that is not helpful. I mean, I think there are places. You take the Bible absolutely literally. But Wesley also said, not everything can be taken literally. We have to look to science, we have to look to philosophy. So it's not so much I'm opposed to the concept of the utter truthfulness of Scripture. I believe that I just think the language is problematic when you push that far.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that I I can understand that position. And I think in general, the Chicago statement, which is written before I was born
Andy Miller III: has dirt stood up pretty well, and helps explain some of those details, as as everything needs a little explanation. But I like how you started your answer. By the way, and that is I I that you're comfortable with those who want to use that language is maybe the not the exact words. And I I think that's helpful for us as we're starting off even though I'm at a school that has for all this existence.
Andy Miller III: Use that language. I have not presented legislation that it should be included. I I would say, I think it's helpful, particularly in light of the challenges that have existed within the United Methodist Church to have as strong a view of divine revelation as possible, and I think that inerrancy, or the describing that the Bible is without air and all that it affirms.
Andy Miller III: I think that gets us to a a really strong place. I if I had a stronger term I would use it, and I like I like perfect. I like true. I like all that, and I just want to make sure that's firm. And so as long as there's a willingness for us to engage each other, and and there's room for an errantist like me. I'm I'm happy.
Gregory Stover: And that's that's where I am. I don't want to. I don't want to exclude someone, because that's the way they describe Scripture, and I don't want to be required that you have to use that particular word. The issue is, is the Bible fully reliable? And is it our guide and our more than our guide? Is it our our North Star to help us understand Christian faith and life?
Andy Miller III: Amen, and that certainly came through in your answer. But thanks for giving me a chance to push a little bit on that that side.
Gregory Stover: Sure I I kind of expected you might do that. When I gave my answer.
Andy Miller III: Oh, there, yeah, I could. I actually could sense that. And even though we've never met. So
Andy Miller III: I'm I'm thankful, you know there's there's a lot of groups that are coming to be a more engaged who ha hadn't had an opportunity. I don't know if you're aware too much of the history. But we at Wbs were never approved by the University Senate, and that again probably goes back
Andy Miller III: beyond what we could we could ever understand at the same time schools that.
Gregory Stover: Perfect.
Andy Miller III: Explicitly, not Christian.
Andy Miller III: We're approved. And so we're we're really thankful for the opportunity to be able to serve at this time and and to be connected to other schools like, I know that you're connected to United Asbury. I'm I'm leaving schools out at this point, but we're really thankful. Oh, Truett, for instance, I'm really, really thankful for the variety of expressions that we have, and but I think that there is a common
Andy Miller III: core of what we affirm as Wesleyan Christians, that I think will help us serve this emerging denomination.
Andy Miller III: I didn't catch what you just said there, say, could you say that again?
Gregory Stover: Agree absolutely, you know, and and in what you said there, Andy, you mentioned some schools that ended up being approved, that that at minimum were on the margins, or or most were on the margins of of Christian faith in some ways. And you know, that's been troubling to many of us for years. And as you started with this question, you indicated exactly what the issue has been that
Gregory Stover: that many of us have been arguing for years that that the authority of Scripture has been undermined.
Andy Miller III: For sure, for sure.
Gregory Stover: But we pray and will work to see that that doesn't happen in the global Methodist church.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely. I think that that's part of the role of the bishop is to guard this teaching and guard this. The faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Andy Miller III: I'm interested to see you have a variety of experiences in the church, and, as I've you know, moved from church to church, or been at phases where there's been a maybe a new building a new moment. Now we're at this beautiful new moment in the life of Gold Methodist church. There probably are some things that we need to take advantage of as we make this pivot, and probably some things we need to unlearn. What is, what is it? Do you think we might need to unlearn as a denomination? What do we need to learn.
Gregory Stover: I think the 1st thing as a denomination we need to unlearn is, we need to unlearn the battle mentality.
Gregory Stover: You know. The reality is that most of us have approached general conferences, and
Gregory Stover: much of our engagement through the years in the church is kind of a battle to to defend and protect the Gospel
Gregory Stover: against various currents of that would push it one way or the other.
Gregory Stover: and
Gregory Stover: I still see moments when that kind of mentality is is being carried forward we've got. We've got to organize. We've got to do battle
Gregory Stover: on things. There's a difference between that and just honest debate and honest
Gregory Stover: struggle to discern a way forward. So I think we need to unlearn that. And we need to focus on the Id the understanding that
Gregory Stover: on the most essential things of Christian life and faith and of the Church.
Gregory Stover: I doubt that there's a hair's breadth difference among most of us.
Gregory Stover: You know the core things of the gospel and of living the Christian life.
Gregory Stover: Excuse me, I think another thing that, and and I'm not sure that learn and unlearn is the right language for this, but
Gregory Stover: but as I've looked down through the years at the churches, it seems to me that
Gregory Stover: Methodists are very good at serving.
Gregory Stover: we are outstanding at serving, and and that's an important discipline in the Christian life.
Gregory Stover: We've not been as strong at evangelism, and we've not been as able and flexible or creative, in terms of trying to merge
Gregory Stover: service and evangelism, which is only only going to happen as those who serve who are individual Christians, you know, are ready to give their own, to understand their own testimony, be able to give their own testimony, and to be able to reach out to people about what their faith means to them.
Gregory Stover: Now, that's not the only way you do, evangelism, but but I think that I remember at the the last church that I served prior to my formal retirement. A few years ago there was a particular mission agency that the Church had supported for decades, in fact, was a part of the founding member, and we had continuing conversations that we felt like that Mission Agency needed
Gregory Stover: to do more than just give things away. There needed to be a spiritual component to that. I'm not sure how far we were able to push on that. But because it wasn't, it wasn't just our Church's agency. But but those are key opportunities where, if you have a prayer room, or something like that, or literature, or people who are fluent in speaking about their faith, they can offer Christ along with the cup of cold water. The final thing I'll say is that
Gregory Stover: I believe that we need to
Gregory Stover: let go. We need to understand that we cannot have both a small bureaucracy in the church.
Gregory Stover: and all the bells and whistles that some of us have become used to, and and all the things that have been provided
Gregory Stover: for, the from the denomination to the conferences and local churches. The irony of that, the irony of that is that often
Gregory Stover: those very programs that that were supported with apportionment dollars were not very popular across the churches. And yet I just remember, when we went through the disaffiliation process the questions came very quickly as I spoke at churches. Well, are we going to have a national youth organization? Is there going to be a women's organization? Are we going to have a Mission Board? Are we going to have schools of theology? And as you aware that the core goal
Gregory Stover: for the global Methodist church is, let's partner wherever we can, rather than creating a bureaucracy to to fulfill all those necessary functions.
Gregory Stover: Now
Gregory Stover: I think there will be some development of some of those things over the years. But we've got to. We've got to figure out how to shed the things that really are not fruitful, and focus on those that will be most fruitful.
Andy Miller III: Amen. One of those areas, of course, like you've already mentioned is mission agencies. Charity groups that would come alongside to help people know, serve, and I'll just throw in there seminaries like
Andy Miller III: Probably I don't think people have much of a stomach for establishing
Andy Miller III: universities or seminary like this is going to be the global Methodist Church Seminary instead, like partnering agencies that fit with us probably will then enable us to have a situation where these agencies. If they align like, like us, like a Wbs, we're not trying to
Andy Miller III: come in and say, we are the global Methodist Church Seminary. But we happen to be the global Methodist church in the transitional moment, said, this is what we want theological education to look like. So we said, Well, that fits pretty well with who God's called us to be. So here's our model. So let's set this up. And sure enough, it's led to a opportunity for us to facilitate our mission
Andy Miller III: and by serving students. And it happens to be now, we have more than 400 students, this semester
Andy Miller III: at who are global Methodist church pastors. Well, we fit with what at least, for now we'll see what happens after. General conference we fit for now
Andy Miller III: with what the Gmc. Is asking for, and I imagine that
Andy Miller III: as a 3rd party we're more efficient than we would be if we were completely funded, or there's institution funded in that way I'm glad to give you. I I'm glad to let you talk about that a little bit more, but I just wanted to paint that in a way that's relevant, at least to me. And what's prominent in my many people's minds.
Gregory Stover: Yeah, I. You know that
Gregory Stover: I think currently the goal really is not to create our own seminaries and universities, but to partners with those who can provide adequate education. I think you're probably aware that because you're in the same legislative section that I am.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's right.
Gregory Stover: Legislation coming that would develop a fairly substantial approval and renewal of approval process. And I think that that kind of process is necessary to guard the quality of education and the content of education, that those who will pastor our global Methodist churches and lead our people are receiving.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, let me just jump into that, because you and I will be. Maybe we'll be debating. Maybe we'll be on the same page when we get to Costa Rica. But I was a part of legislation to suggest, and I'm I'm open to hearing other arguments, and I might change my own mind.
Gregory Stover: Like.
Andy Miller III: But that we should have approved institutions and not just recommended institutions. You have any thoughts on on that.
Gregory Stover: I think I've come to that viewpoint as well.
Gregory Stover: I think one of the things I want to watch for Andy in the midst of that is
Gregory Stover: that, 1st of all, we don't recreate the University Senate, and second of all that, however, we go about that
Gregory Stover: we make it a manageable process for both the Church. It needs to be an effective process, but a manageable process.
Gregory Stover: And there are moments that I've had visions of hundreds of
Gregory Stover: institutions wanting to apply, and asking myself.
Gregory Stover: How do we? How do we monitor and vet all of that? You know how much, how much can we do while not over
Gregory Stover: overgrowing our institutional nature.
Andy Miller III: Right? Right? No, I'm with you. And and that was part of my rationale for even participating in that process, in in supporting that legislation, because.
Gregory Stover: 700.
Andy Miller III: I have had.
Gregory Stover: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: I don't know. A dozen schools outside of the Wesleyan tradition come to me and say, essentially, this is a more colloquial way of saying it. Hey! How do I get in on the Gmc. Game?
Gregory Stover: You know is that, and.
Andy Miller III: And not that it's a game. But I think that people see it's an emerging market, and they say, Well, I could hire a
Andy Miller III: Wesleyan faculty member. Does that mean I could serve? So I think there's some things that need to be vetted out in this process, and.
Gregory Stover: That's right.
Andy Miller III: I'll save that, you know, for our committee. But though I think I like, I like the direction that you're going. Is that W. Well, whatever that vetting is, we don't want it to create a whole. Another level of bureaucracy or or institutional institutionalism, organizationalism that slows down our opportunity to serve the church.
Gregory Stover: That's right.
Andy Miller III: Well, you've highlighted something else earlier, and I think this is connected to just the evangelistic call that we have as a movement. Well, one of the aspects of that is that there's approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ. You know, how could you, as a interim, Bishop, give voice to this crisis and help mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be a part of answering this crisis.
Gregory Stover: One way, I think that would be helpful in confronting that is, simply by by preaching and teaching about the great Commission.
Gregory Stover: The Evan, the evangelical mandate of the Church.
Gregory Stover: which, interestingly, I taught a class in evangelism a few years ago, and Matthew 28 has not always been the center of the Church's call for evangelism.
Andy Miller III: Hi, Hannah!
Gregory Stover: Times there were in other eras of Church history. There were other Scriptures like John 3, 16, for God so loved the world that were sort of the central mantra of the Church. And yet evangelism took place and was motivated. But so we can teach about God's desire for the world.
Gregory Stover: Second of all, I think that we need to. And I've mentioned this before. I think we need to encourage pastors to to help their people understand how to share their faith.
Gregory Stover: A 3rd thing is, and the reason for that is that ultimately people are one to Christ by people
Gregory Stover: or groups of people together, and then, 3, rd that brings us back. Oh, I there was another one I wanted to put in there almost forgot.
Gregory Stover: I think, one of the things that we need to continually nudge the church about
Gregory Stover: is that there is some
Gregory Stover: tendency in the church that people want to do mission in their backyard.
Gregory Stover: You know. We want to know where the money where the effort goes. We want to be able to see it.
Gregory Stover: And while that's important to do that, I don't want us to stop doing that.
Gregory Stover: I believe every local church ought to have mission in their backyard mission in our region of the United States, and we ought to have some mission that's intentionally beyond, beyond our culture, beyond our nation, because the gospel mandate is for the whole whole world.
Gregory Stover: That then, brings me to New church starts.
Gregory Stover: One of the figures that you've probably heard floating around is that an annual conference needs to start 3%,
Gregory Stover: 2 or 3. I think it's 3% of the number of churches they have start that many new every year, if they want to stay even.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Gregory Stover: If they want to grow, has to be even more so. If you have
Gregory Stover: 400 churches in your annual conference, what is that you got to start 6 a year or more than that.
Gregory Stover: 10% would be for 20. You need to start 20 a year for 5% for good growth, and maybe 10 just to stay. Even
Gregory Stover: so I
Gregory Stover: we've been getting some training on that from Steve Cordell and the river network in our own annual conference as we're trying to embed that DNA in the conference, and and he's got a lot of good information about how local churches can cooperate together
Gregory Stover: to identify a new place where a church is needed.
Gregory Stover: and then to act together, to to begin that process. And, as you may know, in the global Methodist Church. There's not a long process you have to go through, you know. Really, anyone can start a church that they need to confer with their presiding elder, but they can start a church, and we need to help people understand that.
Gregory Stover: So. But that begins with
Gregory Stover: creating a mission and evangelism mentality in the Church, and that that
Gregory Stover: biblically and theologically goes back to understanding who our God is.
Gregory Stover: He's the God that that sent Jesus Christ from eternity into time. It's the word made flesh, you know, in order that the world would know. So if we want to be like Jesus.
Andy Miller III: Yes, Amen.
Gregory Stover: Have that that perspective.
Gregory Stover: Yep.
Andy Miller III: The the God of mission has a church indeed, so.
Gregory Stover: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Leslie new beginning and say so.
Andy Miller III: You've we've talked about evangelism. I'm come. I'm interested in
Andy Miller III: your thoughts on even the word evangelic coal which has baggage like similar to we said inerrancy like, Well, I mean, we all have to use the words that are most effective where we are.
Andy Miller III: I'm good.
Andy Miller III: I'm hopeful that this next phase of Methodism might see itself as having a contribution to the wider Christian world, but also to the evangelical world. So this is kind of 2. Part question one, are you comfortable with the language of evangelical? And then, secondly, what is it that the global Methodist Church
Andy Miller III: can offer to the evangelical community.
Gregory Stover: Angelic was language that that I would use depending on my audience. Yes.
Gregory Stover: so you know, there are certainly places in the church that that's great language. And it communicates a lot.
Gregory Stover: And it's consistent with what we understand ourselves to be as global Methodists. There are other places outside in the world, or in other churches where evangelical does have associations, that I might not use it in that context. Often I speak about evangelical. I speak about classical, I speak about orthodox.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Gregory Stover: And what I'm really pointing to is the faith that was once
Gregory Stover: once for all delivered to the saints. And you can see the center of that faith as this mainstream that runs down through the history of Christianity.
Gregory Stover: And it's it's been defined through the creeds protected through the creeds and through the Scripture.
Gregory Stover: So so, yeah, I'm comfortable. And I do use that language a lot.
Gregory Stover: The second part of your question was, what is our contribution?
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Gregory Stover: I think that the global Methodist Church has an opportunity to
Gregory Stover: live out and demonstrate a form of Evangelicalism and a form of Wesleyan holiness
Gregory Stover: that is
Gregory Stover: that avoids
Gregory Stover: some things that have have been brought along in the past.
Gregory Stover: It's interesting. And over the last couple last year I've had 2 opportunities to be with leaders of the Wesleyan Holiness Association, which, being United Methodist, I have little knowledge of
Gregory Stover: until recently, and it was interesting in those meetings, that that one of the prominent places of conversation was the acknowledgement that in the past holiness theology has often been pulled toward toward a kind of legalism
Gregory Stover: in in which holiness is what we don't do.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Gregory Stover: And, on the other hand.
Gregory Stover: Wesleyan theology
Gregory Stover: in the main lines has become very progressive in many ways.
Gregory Stover: I think that the global Methodist Church has an opportunity to live it out and demonstrate what its Wesleyan theology is like
Gregory Stover: that is not bound up in legalism that is focused on love for God and love for one's neighbor within appropriate biblical definitions of love
Gregory Stover: and and parameters. So I think that's that's 1 huge contribution. We can make a second part of that is very similar, and it just goes back to Wesley's phrase to spread Scriptural holiness across the land.
Gregory Stover: I think we're going to have some challenges in the global Methodist Church. I think that we will. I think that we will do well at lifting up the idea that God calls us to a holy life.
Gregory Stover: I think a part of holiness is speaking to the culture
Gregory Stover: and sometimes speaking to the political world and to the governmental world.
Gregory Stover: The problem is, and I guess this would be another thing that we need to unlearn
Gregory Stover: where we've come from. That almost always meant
Gregory Stover: a very one-sided view of legislation, a long list of political issues that we were trying to address.
Gregory Stover: I believe the global Methodist Church needs to learn how to address the world around us. Not so much in pass this legislation. But here are the values of Scripture, you know. Here's the value of life.
Gregory Stover: How? How are we going to apply that in our world?
Gregory Stover: So I I think that when you think back to Wesley, I mean, Wesley spoke out against child labor laws, Wesley was very supportive of the anti-slavery movement, although it took him a while to really understand that
Gregory Stover: well, and and he seemed to see that as entirely
Gregory Stover: in entirely in alignment with living a holy life.
Gregory Stover: And so I think we need to figure out how we're going to do that as a global Methodist church. We can't do that until we get farther down the road with our own statements about those sorts of things, and perfect those. But
Gregory Stover: I think those are some contributions we can make.
Andy Miller III: It's beautiful. Yeah, I love those in in your comments about holiness. And and as a 1 of the groups that's more connected to the Wesley and Holiness world from Wbs. What you articulated with a love focused non legalistic approach towards holiness is right in line with what we've been saying, and I'll just point people to our Director of Research adjunct, Professor Matt O'reilly's.
Gregory Stover: Reconnect.
Andy Miller III: Constructing Methodism, and then look to our one of our professors, Chris Lorschover, who's in the Congregational Methodist Church. That's he's he's come from that movement. He has an article in that book on Holiness, reconstructing holiness that fits right in with what Greg identified. And it's what we're teaching students here at Wesley Biblical Seminary. So we I love that. But I also love that there is
Andy Miller III: this social witness at the and and I. I like that. You even just mentioned life, that that's something that that needs to be highlighted, and that there are scriptural principles for how we do that. So I I think many people in a gold Methodist church would warmly welcome the idea that if
Andy Miller III: we, as a denomination, are able to speak to some of these key key issues without going into the agency of church and society like creating a whole. Another system that's that's there that we can still speak to power, but to do that in a different way that have been done in the past iteration. I'll do one example, that in in I came from the Salvation Army.
Andy Miller III: and one of the challenges is that it moved to become more of an organization in the early days, like with Wesley, I mean spoke out against prohibition, or, before, you know, actually in favor of prohibition.
Gregory Stover: Picture.
Andy Miller III: And but then has kind of like taken a more apolitical stance, even not speaking out, even though they would affirm it on issues of life. So I would love. I would love it if there's opportunity for the the gold Method church to do that. Well, I, Greg, I've I've taken a while a little bit longer than I'd hoped. But do you have anything else? You'd like to add that you didn't get to say.
Gregory Stover: Oh, few, you would say that I always have to think about that a little bit.
Gregory Stover: you know. I just want to say that for me it's a remarkable honor to even be lifted up as a nominee at this point, and my consistent prayer
Gregory Stover: has been that God's will would be revealed, no matter what that means for me. That's what I want for the global Methodist church.
Gregory Stover: And I guess I close with one other thought. That is something that's become a very important devotional thought to me in my understanding of faith.
Gregory Stover: Over the years I've struggled a little bit with what's a good definition of faith.
Gregory Stover: and you know they're all the they're all the really traditional understandings.
Gregory Stover: But a couple of years ago I was reading Tozer once again. Aw, Tozer.
Gregory Stover: and he said that faith is the gaze of the soul toward the one God who saves.
Gregory Stover: And he went on to explain that
Gregory Stover: that when we've fallen.
Gregory Stover: when we've grown cold.
Gregory Stover: It doesn't mean that faith is over. It means that we look to the one God who saves.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Gregory Stover: And and it gives this dynamic quality to faith.
Gregory Stover: That's 1 of the things that I hope for myself, and that I would hope for everyone in the global Methodist church and beyond.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Beautiful. Well, thank you for your time today, Greg. I look forward to being with you in Costa Rica and thankful for your responsiveness to this nomination.
Gregory Stover: Thank you very much, Andy, and God's blessings to you.