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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
So Jess, how do you want to start this episode?
Because you don't like my intros, which is you've said is only about the weather.
You said you were gonna bring a dad joke, but Yeah, I forgot.
Okay.
I was busy being good.
Well, let's talk about that.
You've been uh well what?
You've been taking care of the children, as have I.
But we have had the kids home for the summer, of course, and not a lot of childcare, especially over the last few weeks.
So we've been switching off, taking care of the kids.
and finally have childcare again today.
Not gonna lie, I was pretty excited to come into work and just exist without someone on my lap for a few hours.
Yeah, it was a bit of a challenge, but that's okay.
No, it was great.
Like I think for the most part it was really good.
But I think the last couple days we were like, yeah, routine.
It's more about routine for me.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I feel like the
I mean for us this summer, especially this year for some reason, just feels like there has been very little to no routine.
I think 'cause our kids are older, they're staying up later now.
Yeah.
That's the part that's killing me.
Well one of our kids is a little bit older.
Yeah.
And it's
Mainly our oldest.
Mainly the oldest.
Yeah.
But they all like they all used to have to go to bed at like seven.
But now they can all kind of manage to a little bit longer, except for the baby, aka the three year old.
But yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a later night
It's the fact that they could stay up later and we want to, right?
Like I want to do something like randomly go out for ice cream with her and like ha make those fun summer memories.
But then you and I also haven't had childcare, so we're trying to catch up on work
Which means that we're not starting to catch up on work till like nine, nine thirty.
And then we're staying up late.
So it's just been busy.
Yeah.
But for the most part.
Honestly, the summer's has been fun.
It's just a little more chaotic than
Just a lot of chaos.
We're used to or normal for us.
For two parents with ADHD who do really well with routine, the chaos feels like a lot sometimes.
For me.
I don't know about for you
I don't mind it.
I it's more just the guilt of not getting enough work done.
That's pretty much what it is for me.
Yeah.
Because I feel like there's lots for me to do and it's hard to keep catch up.
Same, same.
I feel that too.
But overall I have actually been very much enjoying the summer.
Especially because we did two weeks ago we took just a staycation, so we just did day trips and stuff around the house and did some I did a few projects around the house, digging in the backyard and all that kind of stuff.
The staycation was lovely.
I actually feel like I'd want to do that again and just build that into our schedule.
Because it was nice.
We got some s yeah, we definitely got some stuff done around the house.
We got quality time with the kids, with nobody else
around which was really nice.
And and we had a lot of fun like just doing like sprinkler and freezes in the afternoon, just like easy.
Yeah, and we went to Toronto for the day too.
Yeah.
Which was fun.
We went and got to see a a show with the kids, which they loved
I love too actually.
The Lion King.
Yeah.
So all in all, it's been good.
How's your heart today?
Okay, let's get started then.
Yeah, let's.
But I want to ignore that question and let's move into my question instead.
Oh, okay.
So let's start with a moment that I think
most parents, especially parents as our kids get older knows.
So a our child comes home from a friend's house and hits you with the classic line after you set a boundary or something like that.
But their parents let them classic.
It immediately puts you on the defensive.
So as a therapist, what's the first thing you want parents to remember in that moment?
You don't have to change your rules
or expectations based on what other families do.
Right?
So just because someone else's parents let their kids watch a certain show or stay up till a certain time or whatever it is.
that doesn't mean you have to change your expectations.
And like you can take your child's concerns serious, right?
Because sometimes there might be times when
you actually do have an unrealistic expectation for your kid.
I'll give you an example.
Let's say you have an eight or nine year old like we do and you're still putting them to bed at seven every night, right?
And they're starting to crave
Hey, I want to stay up a little bit later.
And they say, hey, all my friends stay up till 8 30.
Why do I have to go to bed at 7?
There's a moment where you can take into consideration what they're saying and ask yourself, oh, is my expectation of my child at
realistic or maybe they're on to something, then you get to decide what the rule is based on that.
But don't just change your s your rules or dig your heels in because your child is pushing back.
Also, I like to remind parents it's a child's job to push back.
Like every child is gonna push back.
So it's not that your child is doing something wrong.
Like they should question you, they should push back, and then you get to decide what you say
Okay, I mean that sounds good.
I kinda like it a little bit when they push back.
Not one that's incessant pushing back, but I appreciate a bit of pushback
Just question the rules a little bit because I hope they do that to us.
And to everyone everyone else in the world as they grow older too.
I want our kids to question us and there has actually been times when they've pushed back on something.
And
it's made me recognize that maybe we weren't being fair or our expectation wasn't realistic.
Like bedtime is a good example where I feel like I would have just had the kids continuing to go to bed at seven forever.
And then one time I was talking to one of my friends about
when her daughter goes to sleep and she was like, Oh yeah, she goes to sleep at 830.
And I was like, oh.
And then I talked to another friend.
Yeah, 830.
And all these eight-year-olds were going to bed between eight and eight thirty.
And in my head
That was like way too late and she'd been pushing back, right?
And I realized, oh, maybe my expectation is realistic and I have to shift bedtime a little bit, right?
So we can learn.
Okay.
That's a whole separate thing.
Because I'm I question again just because everyone else is doing it.
Totally.
Does it make sense?
Like 8 30, that still seems quite late to me for an eight-year-old.
But it's probably also dependent on their temperament, what they can handle.
Well, not even that, but they have school the next day or not.
Or and I mean you wanna
Stay relatively consistent, but let's say it's the summer months for us.
I personally don't care if they stay up a little bit later, as long as it's not affecting them the next day.
Yeah, that's a whole side.
Yeah, that's a whole side conversation that we can have personally
So the research I looked at frames family rules not as just do's and don'ts, but as the primary way we transmit our family's culture and values to our children.
So before we even get into explaining rules to our kids, why is it so critical for parents to first get a clear idea on their own family's core values or their
their north star that they look to when they make decisions as a family.
This is actually the first thing I typically do with parents in my therapy practice.
Like it's an exercise that I get parents to do for themselves is like write a a list of things that really matter to the two of you.
Right, or to you if you're a single parent.
What values do you want to pass down?
What do you look back at from your own childhood and you're like, I want to make sure I do this with my kids?
Maybe it's about religion or beliefs or whatever it is, but
It is important to be clear on what that is for you before you start making decisions for your children, right?
And it can be something as simple as in our
Family, we really value honesty, right?
Or we really value giving back to others.
Because when you have those clear core values, any rule or expectation that you're putting into place for your children
you can kind of match that up to your values.
Does this expectation I have of my kid, or does this way I'm disciplining my child, right?
So let's say your value is like teaching your children kindness and respect.
And
having a f a family that's known for being kind and respectful to others, right?
So does the way I'm disciplining my child align with that value?
So I think when we can have those core values in place
From there, everything else that we do, rules, expectations, discipline, can we can match it up to that.
And I think it helps, like you said, it
gives us a guiding principles for everything else that we do.
Mm-hmm.
My only issue with that is, I guess, how one would define kindness.
Right.
So it I mean
Yeah, it's a whole conversation you have to have as parents for your kids because I can imagine some people could very easily define kindness as being incredibly strict and restrictive.
on their children because they think that that's the kind way like that's being kind to my child.
Yes.
When it may not be the best way.
for your child to develop.
Yeah, and I do think this is where what we're doing on the podcast or the education that we provide parents is also important because we can't just necessarily place an expectation on our child or say we have a value.
without also looking at okay, well, developmentally, is this appropriate for my child?
You know, what does the research say about the long-term effects of
acting this way towards my child, right?
So there's always nuance.
You can't just say like, oh well these are my values, so my child has to do it.
It it's not that simple.
But I think a lot of parents just have not even had those conversations
Like even about things let's say about like money, like what kind of values do I have around money?
How do I want to teach my kids about money?
Or how do I want to teach my kids about giving back to others?
Or even values like
gossip.
Like what do I want to teach my children about the way I talk about my friends in front of them?
Right?
There's there's all these things that I think
If we can just have some of these conversations with our co-parent or our our partner, I think it can be really beneficial before you start
putting rules in place in your home.
So I was actually I was quite fascinated by the developmental psychology behind a child's sense of fairness.
So I looked into that.
Okay
And the research seems to show that infants as young as around 15 months expect things to be equal
already, which it's pretty young.
So when a five year old screams it's not fair because their sibling got a bigger cookie, what's actually happening in their brain?
Like what are they
thinking in that moment.
Is it pure defiance or is there something more fundamental going on?
Which I know the answer, but I think kids just have this innate sense of understanding injustice, you know, and even if the injustice as
Something as small as, wait, he got a bigger half of the cookie than I got, right?
And I think as parents we say, oh, come on, just eat the cookie, you know, don't worry about it.
But I think that there is a wisdom to the way that our children see the sense of fairness and inequality or injustice in these little things that we don't necessarily want to just skip over or kind of force them to grow out of, right?
I think children have such a great way of understanding when something doesn't make sense or isn't right and they'll push back on you.
And like you said at the very beginning
Is that wrong?
I don't think it's wrong for a child to push back and be like, this doesn't seem fair, this doesn't seem right.
That doesn't mean that we have to make all these changes every time they say it, but
I do want to equip parents to help their children keep that voice of injustice and keep the ability to stand up when they see something that doesn't make sense to them or that isn't right and to ask questions about it
And it starts in those small moments when they say, Wait, it doesn't feel fair that so and so gets to stay up late or so and so's family is okay with them watching this show, right?
I want our kids to push back and question these things.
I want to help them preserve that sense of injustice that they have.
Or that sense of um
I feel like it's more critical thinking than the job.
Yeah, critical things critical thinking, right.
Right.
I feel like they're noticing differences and they're able to see that there's this house we do things in this way and at our house we do things differently.
And why is that?
I don't get it.
It doesn't seem fair.
Right.
And I think we have this this tendency to be like, I said what I said, this is my rule, it's my way or the highway, you know.
'cause that's easier.
Mm-hmm.
But think about the long term impact that has on your kid if every time they bring something to you that doesn't feel right or doesn't feel fair or that they just aren't sure about and you just say, Because I said so you know, this is the reason.
We make our kids stop asking these questions, but they're really important questions and will serve your child well through their life.
if they're able to continue to be curious about these things and ask questions.
I mean one of my core values for our family is critical thinking.
I want to instill that in our kids in our family life.
I feel like pushing back a little bit and questioning things.
It's a good way to force every one of us in the family to constantly
think about why we make the decisions we make and if that actually makes sense.
Like restricting our kids from watching a show, what's the underlying reason?
for that, right?
I wanna be able for us to be able to say there's a legitimate reason for doing this and explain that to them in whatever age appropriate ways, what they can understand.
But I I do want their questioning to even
cause us to think more critically about everything too.
Because you even notice something as simple as going on walks with our kids over the past eight
Almost nine years.
I've noticed that the saying Stop to Smell the Roses, like they're actually they're legitimately doing that.
They're stopping
And then that has caused me to think about everything differently.
Even something as simple as our daughter asking about how a light turns on when you hit a switch on the wall.
Like
How does that make sense?
Why is it doing that?
It just, I don't know, it has made me think through everything differently.
And that's well, I mean, again, this is one of my core values is
the ability to think critically.
And you kind of see that in how children ask us questions because they may legitimately just not understand.
Right, and they want to understand.
Yeah and they want to.
And I want to preserve that in our kids, the ability to want to understand something, to feel confident to ask a question, or when they notice something isn't fair or isn't right, to be like
Why?
Why is this so?
And I just think so many of us lose that.
And as adults even, we're afraid to ask those questions, right?
And we feel silly for asking a question or we
feel like oh we should just know everything and I feel like we can learn a lot from kids and their ability to ask questions but it makes a lot of us feel uncomfortable and also
It creates more work for us as parents.
It's easier to say because I said so, end of story.
Because then we don't have to actually critically think about, well, why do I have this rule in place?
Right.
Well, I think that goes back to again, discussing as a parent or if you're on your own, thinking through, writing it down, what are my values?
What do I want to instill in my children?
Because I think if you can think through that and have good reasoning for why
you have these values, then it's a lot easier to answer why our family does something different than another family.
Yeah.
And why.
Yeah, it might not feel fair, but these are the reasons why we do this.
You know what's coming to my mind a lot as we're talking is like gaming, social media, TV shows, right?
Like I think a lot of parents like that's where you're hearing a lot of pushback, right?
Like
Well, why does every other kid get to play Roblox online?
Or why does every other kid get Snapchat at 10 years old?
And I don't get it.
Parents are gonna definitely, especially as their kids get older, they're gonna get this pushback from their kids.
And
it's gonna be easy to say, well, because this is our rule, because I said so.
But if you can do that work on, well, these are our values as a family, this is really important.
One of our values is
protecting you guys and I don't feel like I can do that when you're on Roblox talking to strangers online.
Then you can have a much deeper conversation with your child and truly get to the root at why this rule is in place versus just a blanket like
I'm your parent and I said so.
Which is probably gonna make your child just wanna sneakily go about.
Yeah, do it even more.
For sure.
That would have made me want to do it even more.
Yep.
Okay, let's talk about what's called the knowledge behavior gap, where a child doesn't really understand, or maybe they do understand something, sorry, and they still can't
actually execute on what they understand.
So apparently it is possible for kids as young as about three to tell you that they should be sharing equally.
But
They won't actually do it until they're around the ages of seven to eight.
Mm-hmm.
Roughly.
Which I think is hilarious.
Because you even see that in
our toddler.
We're starting to see that shift in our five-year-old already that she is able to do things a little bit more fairly, but it's still uh at that age, the research shows that kids are just more egocentric.
They can only really understand themselves at that point.
So can you unpack this for us?
This is one of my favorite
things because parents will always say, let's say they're four-year-old.
Well my four-year-old knows it's not okay to hit.
He'll say hitting's not okay.
But then when the moment comes and his brother takes his toy
He just hits his brother and I'm like, Ferrence will be like, I don't get it.
Like he knows he can say it.
He can do all the coping tools, but in the moment he can't, right?
And that is just about brain development.
It's just that they can theoretically know something, but their body doesn't maybe have that connection.
And so in the moment, their body still acts out and their body still hurts another child, right?
And I actually think one of my favorite examples is when our daughter, our middle daughter was probably like four, she got this phrase probably from preschool, like sharing is caring.
Something, remember that?
And so she would always want to share stuff with me, right?
So let's say I have like a drink of like soda water or something.
She'd come up to me, Mom, sharing's caring, right?
And I'd be like, yeah, okay.
Like I don't really like that phrase, but whatever.
Right.
And then she'd want to share something with me.
And then I just remember one day just laughing because she did not want to share something, like no matter what, with her sister
And I just said, I thought sh I thought sharing was caring and she was like, No.
Just like in that moment it didn't matter that she knew this cute little catchphrase and she w had used it all the time with me because when her brain was that dysregulated and that
stuck it doesn't matter what they know their body just has a different way of dealing with things right and that is such a great example of that knowledge behavior gap and I think
I think that's where a lot of parents are so hard on their kids because they'll be like, you know how to take a deep breath.
You know hitting is wrong.
You know you can't call me stupid.
Whatever it is.
So why are you doing it?
But we have to understand that in those moments, knowing and doing are two different things.
So I love that you brought this up because I I find this very, very fascinating and
game changing when you can understand.
Yeah, reading it in the research I could just see our kids at those stages and
I was kind of I was laughing while reading the research just because I can see in our daily life that happening.
And I feel like talking about that knowledge behavior gap, it could definitely save parents a lot of frustration trying to reason with a preschooler.
Yeah, and I say to parents like because they'll be like, well one time he took deep breaths and he didn't hit.
Yeah.
Right.
So he can do it.
And now I hold him to that standard.
It's like
Okay, one time when the conditions were right, he had a perfect sleep the night before, he had a nice big breakfast, tons of connections you know, like the environment was just so so that that one time he could use a deep breath instead of hitting
that doesn't mean that that is going to be transferable to every single other time.
Yes, you can do it when the conditions are perfect, but like we have to give our kids some grace too and understand that they're
brains are developing and it takes some time.
Well that goes back to the episode we where we talked about that, right?
Their brains are developing and different parts of their brains are developing at a different rate, so they may be able to
think through things more logically and they might have a smaller knowledge behavior gap at certain points and then all of a sudden they hit puberty and it expands again and I don't know.
I find that very interesting and kind of comical a little bit
And I mean don't you think the same for adults?
Like we're a lot better at it, but how many things do we know and not do, right?
Yep.
Like I know I shouldn't watch shows till eleven o'clock
o'clock at night just go to bed early.
That doesn't mean I do it when I'm tired.
Absolutely not.
And want to get and don't want to get off the couch to go to bed, right?
Like
You're almost too tired to even get off the couch, so you just stay on the couch.
I know.
Like we hold our kids to sometimes a different standard than we hold ourselves to.
Honestly, just letting you know who everyone who's listening, this is a great segue into our next episode where we talk about parental phone use.
Because I think that's a big part of
That as well.
Yeah.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
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There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff, like tickling that goes too far, and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
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Powerful distinction between rules in windfall situations where like all of a sudden one person gets
a lot.
Like a windfall is where an example is when you you win the lottery and you get a windfall of cash or something, right?
Uh versus collaborative
situations where you're working together to achieve a certain goal and you get more equal split of things.
And it noted that even toddlers will actually share rewards equally if they worked together with others to get them.
Which I found quite interesting.
I mean it kind of makes sense.
We see it with our kids too.
They'll sh be more likely to share when they work together on something.
So how do you think parents can apply this?
concept to potentially reframe a bit of family life so kids feel less like employees following orders and more collaborative and like they're part of a team.
Or like we're a coach and they're a part of our overall team and we win together.
Yeah, I feel like that's a metaphor we've used a lot, right?
That we're coaching them versus like just
telling them exactly what to do all the time.
I think it makes sense.
Like when your child has buy-in or they feel like they have a say, they feel like they have some sort of voice in the family system, they're gonna be a lot more
more likely to want to engage in the expectations or the rules that you have.
It's kind of what we were talking about where if you just have a rule, like hey, no roadblocks, that's our family rule
like done.
But you never take the time to explain, to talk about why, to get your child's input and make them feel seen and heard.
Your child's gonna find sneaky ways to do the thing, right?
It comes back to this relationship where
Your child has to trust that you have their best interests in in mind.
And that is done not just in the moment when you're setting a rule or expectation for them.
That's your whole relationship with them, right?
So they need to know that in general their parent always has their best interests in mind.
And if they know that, then they're gonna be a lot more likely to trust whatever expectation or rule that you're putting into place.
But also if they feel heard and they feel like they have a say
and they feel like they still belong in this family even if they disagree with your rule or their expectation, you're also gonna have a lot more buy-in from them.
Versus if it's this
Like it still should be a hierarchical system where like the parents get the final say, right?
Like that is important.
You're not their friend.
You're not, you know, their BFF kind of situation.
I think we s are seeing a lot of that where parents
don't feel like they have the final say and they just kind of listen to whatever their children are saying, thinking that that's going to strengthen the relationship.
Like your child does have to trust that at the end of the day, you're the leader, right, in the situation.
But they have to feel heard and they have to feel seen and they have to know that when they have pushback, you actually take the time to consider what they're saying.
Yep.
And truly consider, not just like
you know, brush them off all of the time.
So I think that's the piece that's often missing in these discussions.
And I think if you look at the old school way of parenting, it was like my way or the highway, you know, what I say goes, you don't question authority
Some of the struggles we're seeing right now are like w we almost let kids question us so much that we don't feel confident in our rules and we don't feel like we get the final say in our home, right?
So we
We want our kids to feel so loved and seen and heard that sometimes we let them call the shots
So there has to be a balance um in the middle and I I think that's a nuanced conversation that's kind of hard to pin down exactly.
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
I mean, like an easy example I could think of is let's say for dinner
We explain our rules or the boundaries that we have to hold.
Like we want a dinner and it needs to include a certain number of vegetables or something like that and a certain amount of
food that's gonna fuel us the best, but they get to help us choose and collaborate on what we're going to eat for the week.
Mm-hmm.
So I'll we'll talk to them about okay, what what do we want?
What are we looking for this week for food?
Here's what we need to make sure we include and so that would be
a more practical example for me of how we can collaborate, make them a part of the team, knowing that here's the rules that we have to play within.
How do we get to that point?
And here are a few of my ideas for how we can do that.
Yeah
And even along those lines, like even less collaboration that you could have, but where your child still trusts your leadership could be, so our family value is we have dinner together whenever we can, right?
Like we try and have dinner every night.
Something that is important to us.
as a family is that we have nutritious food on the table, right?
Certain balance of nutritious food.
Now, we know that there's certain things our kids don't like.
and they're not going to eat.
So we're not going to put that on the table every single night because our child's going to be like, well, why would I want to sit and have dinner with my parents?
They know I don't like this food, yet they're forcing me to eat it every single night.
So as parents, what we would do is we would just take into consideration, I know that these are the kind of things our kids will actually eat.
It's part of our value as a nutritious dinner.
So we're going to incorporate that in the meals that we have this week
Right.
So that's without even ever even talking to your kids about it.
Yeah.
You're finding a way to make them feel seen and heard.
And then maybe it's like, okay, one night a week, kids choose what we have.
It's always pizza in our house.
Oh, it's gonna be pizza, yeah.
Or mac and cheese maybe.
Yeah.
But there are ways to be collaborative and help your kids feel seen and heard that don't even involve
asking them for their input.
It's just that is what being a loving leader or a good coach is all about is taking into consideration the needs the needs of them and then making expectations and roles that take those things into consideration.
Yeah, and honestly, like I would say our kids don't like eating everything, which apparently I have to research this more, but apparently the taste bud your taste buds change over time, so you actually taste things more intensely when you're younger and it becomes less intense as you get older.
Oh, that's really interesting.
What you found.
I have to look into it to make sure, verify.
So take that with a grain of salt.
then it makes even a little bit more sense.
They're a little more sensitive to the tastes and textures of things than I know I was as a kid too.
And now what I like to eat has
changed quite a bit.
So I feel like I actually don't mind including them a little bit as long as they're aware that we have to include certain things in the meals.
Yeah.
Oh I don't think it's wrong.
I'm just thinking for the parent who's like, I don't have time to include my kid and everything.
I mean to be honest, for this week I planned all of our meals at like 5 30 this morning.
Yeah.
So they're not awake.
I'm the only one and I had the time to actually think through the week
That's what we're gonna have.
But as you planned the meals, you thought of what will the kids actually eat?
Yeah.
Right?
Not just what do I like, what is Jess like.
You thought, what will the kids actually eat?
And to me, that is being a collaborative parent without even talking to your child.
I mean they saw it on the cal our family calendar and they were quite excited.
So I like on that note I wanna mention another thing that I think kids push back on a lot, which is like extracurriculars, or at least we get that.
Push back.
Like they want more.
Right.
Oh, I see.
So for example, it's like our daughter, well, so and so is in gymnastics and another sport, so I want to be in two sports.
So that's where, okay, right now our family value is we don't want too many extracurriculars.
We don't want to make things too busy or chaotic or whatever for our kids, right?
So
we're allowing them one extracurricular at a time.
But if it was up to our oldest, she would have two extracurriculars and she wants to go to this girls group in the fall.
And I'm like, hun, that would be five nights a week
If you did that five nights a week you would be busy.
That's against our family value of having rest time.
It's rest time is really important to us because you need time to, you know, do your homework, to
relax after school to be with your siblings.
And so I explained to her that actually like I hear her and I hear her desire to want to do all these extracurriculars.
I understand.
that her friends maybe are allowed to and that's okay, it works for them.
And that's a not our family value.
So we're not gonna be able to do three extra curriculars in the fall.
Right.
And then we talked it out and be like, you have to you're gonna have to make a choice then what you want to do.
And so I think that's another way, like another example of
Their families do that, that's okay for them.
And that doesn't mean that you're gonna go and do five nights of extracurriculars a week.
So we've already been kind of talking about this, but I wanted to get into the how of
Yeah.
Doing this and the research suggested a strategy of offering choice within boundaries, which we are just talking about.
So can you give us a real-world example of that situation with our daughter?
What did you actually say to her?
Like I just said, I said, listen, Dad and I are not okay with you doing five nights of extra curriculars a week.
That's not gonna work
for our family and that goes against what's really important to us, which is yes, we want you to try new things.
We want you to get some experience with some different things, right?
And it's really important to us that you do have time to rest after school.
You have time to do your homework.
You have time to reset for the next day.
You'll have no time with your sisters if you do five nights of extracurriculars a week.
And for our family, it's not going to work for dad and I.
We're going to be exhausted taking you to all these things.
You know, and that's not fair to you, or to your siblings.
So I just I started there with our values and then I said, and I hear you.
Like I understand you want to do karate
this girls club and you want to do gymnastics.
You want to do all of them.
We can't do all of them.
So I'm gonna need you to think about what it is that you really want to do in the fall.
Like we're okay with you doing one sport and I want you to think about which one you want to do and why that's going to be important to you.
Right.
And I said, you don't have to answer me right now, but
That's what dad and I are okay with.
One extracurricular, right?
So she said she would think about it and get back to me.
And then a couple days later, she's like, I thought about it.
I want to stick with karate
I said, okay, what made you think you want to stick with karate?
Right.
And then she had a whole bunch of reasons why she wanted to keep doing karate.
And then she said, but can I sometimes maybe do gymnastics if there's like a special like
Next week she's gonna do like a gymnastics camp for the summer, right?
If there's like a special gymnastics thing I can try because I do kind of want to just try it out.
I said that's fine.
Like we can do like a random Saturday here and there or you know, gymnastics camp in the summer.
So we came to a place where she understood my concerns, our concerns, you know.
And she had some choice, but they were within boundaries.
And I felt like I stayed true to our family value of making sure that we had that downtime and being fair to every child in the family.
Because I also said we can't offer this
To your sisters too.
Like there's no way.
Like I we can't physically be in a million places at once.
That is definitely one of our values that we've talked about for a long time.
That we're not gonna be the family that's on the road constantly
trying to bring our kids here and there for all these different sports and extracurricular activities, like that's not going to be us.
And it's hard though 'cause the opportunity's endless for all the things that they can do, right?
She's like she does do piano lessons too, but it's at school, so that helps.
Yeah, that's helpful.
But like she's to saying I wanna do singing lessons, piano lessons, gymnastics, I would love to do dance at th like and that's her personality.
So She's like me in that way where there's
an infinite number of things that are interesting to me.
It's more I have to focus on, okay, what can I actually do with the time that I have.
Yeah.
But I feel like that's a really good example of her telling me about all these friends who do something every single night and just being like
And that's okay for them, and that's not our value.
But because we've already had that conversation, you and I, it made it a lot easier for me to tell her no and explain why.
But if you and I had never established what our
boundaries were gonna be or what our expectations were in terms of extracurriculars.
Right.
Well and she might that could have been really hard.
She might have gone to you and then come to me right after and ask.
Dad, I want to do this and this and this.
And I'd be like, okay, yeah, sure, no problem.
Right.
If we had never talked about it too.
But that was very clear that you and I were on the same page.
Yeah.
I would never have said yes to that, but Yeah, I know you would never have said yes.
But that was important to me to be like, dad, would give you the same answer.
Yep.
Right.
But I think so another practical example could be like TV shows.
We hear from our kids like, well, my friend watches this show on YouTube or this kid when I was at
the doctor's office, they had their own iPad and they were watching this, you know, like we'll hear things like that too.
And again, it goes back to, okay, that's okay for them.
Like we don't know their situation.
We don't know the conversations they've had with their parents.
This is our family rule and here's why
But yeah, of course, this comes up all the time.
The research highlights how communication needs needs to change as kids get older, which makes sense.
So a conversation with a five-year-old about rules is very different from one with well even our eight-year-old, but let's say when she's twelve, it's gonna be even more different then.
So could you walk us th
through a scenario, say a rule about screen time or something, and show us how you'd explain it to a younger child.
So let's say our middle daughter versus an older child.
So assume our oldest is 12
Right.
I think the younger they are, the more direct we probably are, and the more control the parent has
in terms of like physically setting that boundary, right?
Like with our five year old we can easily just be like, you don't have an iPad, we're not buying you an iPad
and you can only watch shows on Netflix or whatever and we just like don't even have YouTube on the TV, right?
Like it is a lot more physical and they just
they don't have the ability to try and change that, right?
And I would still explain my why to a five-year-old, but I probably just keep my
explanation short, I'd follow their lead.
If they have more questions, I would try and answer their questions honestly and factually.
Right.
And the one thing that will always remain the same is I'll always see and hear whatever concerns that they have
Not that that changes my boundary, but I'll make sure that they feel listened to and heard.
As they reach that 12-year-old age, what I always hear from clients is like who were very, very strict when their kids were little without explanations.
It's like
Well, I can't send them to timeout anymore when they don't listen to me.
I can't just yell at them or I can't take things away because they just find an iPad, right?
And they just take it.
Or they go to school and they use their friend's phone and download Snapchat on there, right?
Like
When your kids become 12, the discipline that you use when they were younger and the relationship that you built, it really starts to matter
Because if you've built this foundation where they know they can question you, they know they can ask you their questions, you know, they know they can push back on you and you'll you're gonna hear them at 12.
they'll still push back on you, but they'll know that you have their best interests in mind and you'll be able to have those deeper conversations about why.
But if their whole childhood was just because I said so, or if you don't listen, you're going to time out.
When they become twelve, they don't
feel that sense of safety that they can ask you those questions and they often will just go do it on their own, right?
And I think 12 is actually the age where we really see
the discipline that we used in the younger years, we we start to see the impact of that.
Yeah, and it makes sense.
Again, going back to the brain science behind all this, the emotional part of their brain is controlling them a whole lot more
than the logical part of their brain.
Right.
So it makes sense that if they feel emotionally safe with you, that they're more likely to then listen to you, even if they're still emotionally charged.
Right, they still probably pissed off at you.
Yeah, hundred percent they will be.
And I think p as parents we need to be okay with that, disappointing our kids and having them mad at us.
And if you could never deal with your child being disappointed with you when they were three, four, five, and six, right?
And you just said, okay, fine, here, you know, have the iPad, do this, whatever, when they're disappointed with you in the t
teen years or tween years it's gonna be really hard.
Like we have to teach them how to cope with this disappointment in the earlier years.
Yep, I think that makes sense.
So I want to push it back a little bit on that.
So the research strongly advises against using screen time as a reward or punishment for unrelated behavior.
But for many parents, it's the most effective leverage that they actually have.
Totally.
So is it really bad to say if you don't clean your room, you lose your tablet time?
or iPad time, what's the long-term risk we're not seeing in that moment?
Which he kind of alluded to that they're not gonna be prepared, but maybe go deeper into that.
I literally hear this from clients all the time.
And I have for years.
Like even maybe like eight, nine years ago, I was hearing this from clients before screens were like as common as they are.
I was hearing from clients that like K
When they were younger and they didn't clean the room, I would just say, you don't get iPad time then.
And then they'd be so motivated to get iPad time that they'd clean the room
now they're twelve and I say if you don't clean your room no iPad time they don't care.
They're str like almost stronger than me.
They'll just go take the iPad and sneak it and and play it in their room for an hour and now I'm pissed off at them 'cause they didn't clean the room and they snuck the iPad
So I think the problem with using these types of things is that they appear to work in the moment, but it's not long-term because you can't keep using that kind of discipline as they get older.
Right, so then you become without a plan as they get older and they've now been programmed to learn that I only do these hard things
when there's this reward at the end.
No internal reward system, it's all based on someone's gonna give me something to do this thing.
Exactly.
Like I would rather teach my children to clean their room because when your room is clean, you
are able to see your toys, you know where they are.
It's easier to sleep when you have a clean room, right?
And when they're younger, I know developmentally, my child can't just go into her room and start cleaning it by herself, right?
She's gonna need some help.
You've been helping her
oldest with this, right?
Like they're gonna need some help.
They're gonna need to learn how to clean their room.
But then when they have that satisfaction of a clean room, I wanna narrate that for them.
I want them to start to feel
understand how that feels so that they're motivated internally to want to continue cleaning the room, right?
Yeah.
And then you're gonna build a and it might not happen right away, like for me, my mom did that
It didn't happen until my twenties that I was like, actually I want to make my bed every day.
I like how it feels.
Yeah.
Took a really long time, but using an iPad or screens always as a reward or
punishment it's just not a long-term plan and that's why I don't like it for parents and I do see it backfiring especially in those tween years.
I hear about it all the time.
Yeah I think that makes a lot of sense.
They're getting too big to do what you used to do when they were little if
If you were using more punitive methods.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And then they use it against you, right?
And I feel like even if you use threats or bribes or whatever, your kids will start to threaten you and bribe you and like it
They learn from that.
So oh no, I just want parents to use methods that are long term.
That's a hundred percent what I did.
It was all used against me and I
learned pretty early on that I could use it back.
Okay, what about when other families' rules seem from your perspective or our perspective genuinely unsafe or unhealthy?
How do you explain to your child why you have a different rule without passing judgment on your child's friends or their parents?
Because that can be very easily done too.
So easy and then that comes back to my or our value of gossip or talking badly about people, which is really important to me to not do.
Right.
And sometimes it could be so easy to be like
Yeah, of course.
Well they all let their kids do X, Y, and Z, and that's not how we do things around here, and we're nothing like that family, you know.
And like almost like a holier than thou kind of personality.
And I don't want that for our kids.
I just like I try and keep it really basic.
Like that's their family, that's what their parents are comfortable with.
It's just different in our house.
Everyone has different rules.
And here's why we feel this way.
I just try and keep it really simple without
like over explaining or trying to make us seem better than another family because like truly we don't know the ins and outs of all these families, right?
Like
You don't know why one parent lets their kids play this game.
Maybe there's more going on in the house and they want their kids to have that distraction or like like we don't know the inner workings of other families, so I don't feel like I can ever talk about that
to our kids in a way that aligns with my values.
So I just try and keep it like, yep, that's what they do.
Here's what we do.
Let's talk about our family.
Okay, but what if I feel like that's fair if it's just like some random friend
from school, but if what if it's a close friend of one of our kids, right?
And you actually do kind of know what's going on.
I don't think your way of explaining it makes a ton of sense then
Right.
Because you actually do know the inner workings and we maybe do completely disagree with what's going on.
Right.
I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's different than just like a random friend at school.
Yeah, if it's like some random person that you have no idea anything about their family really, and it's just their friends at school, they hang out, I think that's one thing.
But if it's
people that you actually know.
I think that's a more likely scenario because well maybe in our for us it's more likely just because our kids are friends with our friends' kids.
Yes
Right.
Right.
And so
For most parents, I think they don't necessarily know the inner workings of the case.
Yeah, maybe this is a small town thing the way I'm talking.
Like we know.
Yeah, we're we're from a small town, so we kinda we do know.
Oh I'm curious how would you just how would you have that conversation?
Uh good question.
I mean the last conversation that I had with our oldest was about phones and screen use.
Mm-hmm.
We actually
We probably talked about it for a good hour and I explained why she's likely going to be the last person in her class that actually has a phone because she kinda wants one.
I mean she sees us on it.
w whether we're good examples of it or not, we'll talk about in another episode.
But I just explained the reasoning for why and
I kept it more about why we made that choice for our family and her, our kids, and why we think that that's
the right thing to do.
And then I just asked her if she had any questions about those reasons.
And she like honestly we talked about it for a good hour outside, just in our back deck.
So I mean in most situations that's probably what I would do.
Now she is insightful enough to be like, well that's not what they do.
So is that not really a good thing?
Right.
And so how'd you navigate that?
The only thing I can think of is like bedtime, right?
Like the the time that we say our kids have to go to bed, which over the summer is different, has been different, but in general our kids go to bed earlier than most people and
I just outline the reasons why and I also say it I know that it's best for you because we can see it in how you act the next day and how your sisters act the next day.
And when we've tried to do
bed times that are different, you've acted completely different.
So again I don't know.
I still try and bring it back to like this is why we do things
for and we do it 'cause I mean we've told our kids our main goal as parents is to raise you to be good people and to keep you safe
So I say the reason why we're doing this is really to keep you safe and help raise you up in the best way we know how
Yeah, and I think that's really similar to what I was saying.
Like it doesn't sound like you got into the other family's dynamics or why No, I usually I would try and steer clear of that, honestly.
Yeah.
Unless she's asking specifically about the dynamics.
I would never try and
pass judgment in the way I speak about anyone else really.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's important to remember as parents.
It's like we want to teach our kids that our expectations and roles might be different and that doesn't mean that we're like
hating on other families, right?
I think that is part of teaching our kids kindness and respect to others is not talking bad about other families, but you can name when things are different.
Like I think that's okay.
Yeah.
Okay, to wrap things up, I have two final questions for you.
The research that I found explained that our rules uh are really a long-term investment in building resilience self-concept.
So the understanding of oneself and critical thinking.
So for th for a parent who's listening who's exhausted and just wants their kid to put their shoes on, what's the one big idea you ha want them to hold on to?
from our conversation today.
It's a really great question.
And it's a realistic one because we sometimes have that with our kids too.
I think when it comes to things like helping your kids put on their shoes or making sure they don't run to the road, right?
And because that's a rule and we don't run to the road but kids are gonna do it anyway.
I think we need to remember that we do need to be the leader that our children are craving in these s situations.
And so just because your child
doesn't want to put on their shoes or they do want to run to the road, right?
Doesn't mean we just let them do whatever it is that they want.
And children are more likely to listen to our leadership and trust our leadership when we show them that we see them
I think one of the things that parents often do that make
Children not trust their leadership is appear to be very not confident in the rules or the boundaries that they're putting into place
And when we constantly change our rules or constantly change our boundaries, like I'll give you an example.
Like if your child doesn't want to put their shoes on in the
like to get out the door and some mornings you're like fine I don't care like just wear your socks in the car then whatever and then the next morning you're like you have to put on your shoes and you get super angry at them and then the next morning you're like
Fine, no shoes.
Like and every single morning the boundary's changing.
Your child's not learning how to trust your leadership.
They're learning that when they push back super hard, you'll change your boundary and they don't know which boundary that they're gonna expect that day.
Right?
So I think
for things like putting on shoes, if that is the expectation that we leave the house with shoes on, we could be curious, right?
Like why don't they want to wear shoes?
We have a very sensitive child who there's certain shoes she just can't wear for sensory reasons, right?
And that's being a good leader too is being curious like why don't they want to wear the shoes?
Or is it where the kids shoe sizes
Or the shoes are too small.
Too small.
And we've had to hit four different sizes in the same year 'cause their feet are growing that fast.
Yeah, so being a good leader isn't just like wear the shoes and get over it.
It's well, why don't you want to wear the shoes?
Okay, so let's say everything is fine.
No sensory issues with the shoes.
The shoes fit just right.
They just are pushing on your boundary, right?
Okay, so why do they push on this boundary every morning?
Well, maybe they don't know what to expect.
They don't know if they're gonna wear socks in the car today or they don't know, right?
They don't want to go to preschool.
They don't want to go to preschool, right?
So being a good leader isn't just about restating rules over and over.
But it is about being curious, seeking to understand why your child's pushing back so hard and having those like sturdy boundaries that your child can learn to rely on, right?
Like
Things like brushing the teeth at bedtime.
If you change your mind every night and like some nights they don't have to brush their teeth and some nights they do, and your child doesn't really know which version of you they're gonna get at bedtime.
They're gonna push back simply because they just don't know what to trust or what to fall back on.
There is a piece of providing that sturdy leadership that's like
Hey, tonight I'm gonna help you get your shoes on, right?
We we have our shoes on before we go to the car.
That's the rule.
And if the shoes don't fit, okay, well, let's get you another pair of shoes.
Or if they're not comfortable, let's get you another pair of shoes.
But this is the rule
And like holding to that, I think your children will learn to trust that and they'll learn to put their shoes on because they know that that's the rule.
So that's like a long-winded answer of saying like being a good leader is so much more than just having rules.
There's the curiosity piece matters.
Yeah.
The critical thinking piece.
The critical thinking piece, yes.
Uh okay, final question.
A common fear for parents, and I think this is why a lot of parents have a hard time
setting those kinds of rules?
Is that having the stricter rules than other families will make their child feel like an outsider or resent them?
So what would you say to that parent to reassure them?
Well, I think two things are true.
If you have really strict rules and you don't have the relationship, your child definitely could start to resent you.
It's the relationship that you have with your child that we've talked about through this whole episode
that is going to be what helps them understand why you have that rule in place, right?
If it's just rules without showing your child that you still want to hear from them, that their concerns matter.
that they have a place where they belong in your family, your child's gonna go search for that belonging to be seen and heard elsewhere, right?
Probably from their friends who are gonna be like, yeah, your parents suck.
you know, and they're gonna be like, okay, I'm validated here.
Yeah.
Right?
Do you want your child to be validated by you or do you want them to be validated by their peers?
And so for me, yes
Some of our rules might be stricter.
Our kids might not have phones till after their other friends.
And these are going to be conversations that we have.
Our children are going to know they have a place for belonging in the home.
Our children are gonna still have their social needs met because we're gonna make sure that they have play dates and friends over and all of these things, right?
Facilitate that for our kids.
They're gonna feel heard and seen.
And so yes, we can have strict rules and when paired with the relationship, it makes a child feel safe.
And I think the alternative of having no rules
And your child gets to do anything that they want actually makes your child feel very unsafe.
Um, they might appear to be happy, but when a child has full control over whatever they do and see and play and whatever
Their brains just can't handle that.
They're too immature.
Like their brains aren't developed enough to think logically or to do reasonable things, right?
So
You're gonna get your child pushing back on you with everything.
They're gonna appear to be the bossy leader of of your house.
That this is all to me like
they're craving someone to lead them, to guide them.
So thinking about that too, it's like it's actually not better for your child to have the last say on everything in your house.
I think that was a great way.
Great place to end.
I think so too.
And if you have questions about this, I feel like it's a great nuanced topic and one that we could always come back to.
Thanks for listening today and hope you enjoyed this episode and come back for the next one.
Talk to you soon.
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