Healing Our Politics

Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!

  
Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How to Guides:
Join “The Leader’s Handbook” newsletter 
·  Always free
·  Once per month email
·  Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast
·  Delivered in simple to follow how-to-guides
·  To try and test in your life, and teach your teams.
JOIN HERE


Guest:
Ashley Grimmel is the founder of both Grimel Biometrics and the Fresh Program and an ultra-endurance athlete. With a passion for pushing the limits of human performance, she trains UFC fighters, endurance athletes, race car drivers, and even everyday individuals. Ashley herself is a seasoned athlete, having competed in extreme events like the World’s Toughest Mudder—a grueling 75-mile race over 24 continuous hours featuring over 350 obstacles, including freezing water submersion, in which she places in the 10 top women, in the world. Ashley has faced innumerable personal challenges, coming our stronger on the other side, and can teach you how, too. In addition to her athletic achievements, Ashley serves as a board member for the Elected Leaders Collective, bringing her dedication to high performance and well-being to the political realm. Simply put, Ashley is the real deal.

About the Episode: 
In this deep and personal episode, we explore a range of topics designed to help you enhance both your physical and mental well-being. Ashley shares actionable tips on improving your diet with minimal time and budget, strategies for sustainable weight loss, and how to boost brain health and longevity. She introduces the concept of the "human audit" to improve relationships and workflow and walks us through the 7 S’s of stress reduction. Ashley also opens up about how her life was shaped by tragedy, death, and sickness and offers a raw and honest discussion on overcoming personal trauma, including rape. This episode contains potentially triggering content, but it’s real, and Ashley’s story shows how even the most difficult moments can fuel personal growth and self-improvement. You’ll walk away with tangible tools and inspiration from this real, deep, and highly tactical conversation.


Key Topics Discussed:
· [00:01:52] Episode/guest intro
· [00:04:35] Little Ashely
· [00:07:45] Staying small for safety
· [00:09:23] Growing up with sick parents
· [00:11:41] Abandonment wounds
· [00:12:54] Trauma catalog
· [00:13:52] Human impact of rape
· [00:16:30] Silencing and victim self-blame 
· [00:19:52] Personal and collective healing through sharing
· [00:25:09] Finding positivity in depravity 
· [00:28:55] Where to shine your spotlight
· [00:30:48] Physical transformation and weight loss
· [00:39:50] Med school false start 
· [00:42:35] Inheriting our parent's mindset
· [00:43:45] Boliemia as control 
· [00:47:35] Mind, body, spirit connection 
· [00:50:17] Animal balloon theory of “fucks to give”
· [00:52:30] Healthy eating for high-stress, time-limiting jobs
· [00:55:03] Micronutriants for brain health 
· [00:59:10] You brain = BMW 1200GS moto
· [01:01:30] Eat REAL food
· [01:02:45] Minimal time diet protocol
· [01:04:20] Health eats w/o cooking
· [01:05:37] How to determine if your diet is working
· [01:07:35] Diet non-negotiable cheat sheet
· [01:09:32] ELC Foundation Donors 
Add 2min 18 seconds
· [01:17:30] Animal protein and anxiety/depression
· [01:25:01] Where and how to source animal protein
· [01:26:56] Sedentary vs. active diet
· [01:28:16] Ashley’s mindboggling athletic achievements
· [01:33:06] Self-talk in extreme conditions
· [01:39:10] Do something you believe you can’t do every year
· [01:39:38] “Suffering is one of life’s greatest gifts”
· [01:42:09] Discerning when to push through and when to give up
· [01:46:34] Human relationships
· [01:47:21] The Human Audit
· [01:54:25] Annual “Human Audit” review process
· [02:00:16] Is the audit “mean”?
· [02:03:16] How does the “Human Audit” affect your work?
· [02:04:44] Direct feedback is LOVING
· [02:08:36] What is stress?
· [02:10:01] Skippy’s definition of stress
· [02:12:01] “6 S’s of Stress Relief”
· [02:22:51] Choose what is in YOUR control
· [02:24:40] Use the stress
· [02:25:31] Final Question: Treasure the hard shit.
· [02:26:18] “The Leader’s Handbook” Newsletter
· [02:27:18] Sponsor: ELC 


Key References and Resources Mentioned:
· World’s Toughest Mudder 
· David Goggins' Book - Can't Hurt Me 
· The Grand Traverse 
· MegaFit Meals 
· Ice Age Meals 
· Breathwork 


Where to Find Ashley Grimmel:
Where to Find Host Skippy Mesirow:
 
Episode Sponsor:
Elected Leaders Collective (ELC)
Helping You Heal Our Politics
The Elected Leaders Collective (ELC) organization is the leading US-based provider of mental well-being training for public servants, conducted by public servants and the world's best mental health and human optimization professionals. With ELC Training, you will learn to rise above and become the political healer you were meant to be, improving your well-being in the process.

Website: ElectedLeadersCollective.com

 
Contact the HOP Team:
Do you have an episode idea?
Want to suggest a guest?
Can you provide critical feedback?
 
We'd love to hear from you!
Contact our team at jesse@healingourpolitics.com
 
Your input helps us create content that matters.


Creators & Guests

Host
Skippy Mesirow
Skippy Mesirow is a prominent leader, certified Master Coach, and founder of the Elected Leaders Collective (ELC) and ELC Foundation. ELC leads the US in mental health and well-being training for public servants, recognized in The Apolitical Foundation's Mere Mortals report, and named as one of 26 worldwide political well-being "Trailblazer Organizations." A transformational leader in political innovation and wellness, Skippy serves on Gov. Polis’s Natural Medicine Advisory. Skippy’s work has been featured in numerous podcasts and publications, as well as main-stage speaking engagements for organizations NLC, YEO, CML, MT2030, Bridging Divides, and Fulcrum, highlighting his significant contributions to mental health, community, and policy reform. Alongside his professional achievements, Skippy lives in Aspen, CO. with his partner Jamie where he enjoys running ultra-marathons, road biking, motorcycling, international travel, culinary arts, Burning Man, and lifelong learning.
Producer
Aaron Calafato
Aaron’s stories are currently heard by millions around the globe on his award-winning Podcast 7 Minute Stories and on YouTube. Aaron is a co-host of Glassdoor's new podcast (The Lonely Office) and serves as a podcast consultant for some of the fastest-growing companies in the world.
Editor
Jesse Link
Jesse is a strategy, research and partnership consultant and podcast enthusiast. A 2x founder, former Goldman Sachs Vice President and advisor to 25+ businesses, Jesse brings a unique and diverse background to HoP, helping to elevate the range, depth and perspective of HoP's conversations and strategy.

What is Healing Our Politics?

Hello,

I’m Skippy Mesirow, host of “Healing Our Politics,” the show that shows you, the heart-centered public servants and political leaders, how to heal our politics by starting with the human in the mirror.

Healing Our Politics, “HOP,” is a first-of-its-kind show that provides tools and practices for mental well-being, health, and balance, specifically for public servants so we can do good by feeling good and safe in our jobs.

HOP brings together experts, scientists, doctors, thought leaders, healers, and coaches to share their insights in practical, tactical, actionable ways specifically tailored to the public service experience for you to test and implement with yourself and your teams. Episodes feature intimate conversations with global leaders about their self-care practices and personal challenges, providing insights for a more holistic, connected approach to leadership. Whether you're a Mayor, teacher, police officer, or staffer, this podcast will guide you to be the best version of yourself in service to yourself and the world!

Sign up for our once-per-month Leader’s Handbook newsletter to receive an actionable toolkit of how-to guides on topics discussed on the podcast that month to test and implement in your life and with your team: https://leadershandbook.substack.com/

Speaker 1:

Hello. My name is Skippy Meserew, coach, former elected official, and lifetime public servant. Welcome to Healing Our Politics, the show that shows you, the heart centered public servant and political leader, how to heal our politics by starting with the human in the mirror. It is my job to sit down or stand up with the best experts in all areas of human development, thought leaders, coaches, therapists, authors, scientists, and more, to take the best of what they have learned and translate it specifically for the public service experience, providing you actionable, practical, tactical tools that you can test out today in your life and with your teams. I will also talk to leaders across the globe with a self care practice, getting to know them at a deeply human and personal level, so that you can learn from their challenges and journey.

Speaker 1:

Warning, this is a post partisan space. Yes, I have a bias. You have a bias. We all have a bias. Everybody gets a bias, and I will be stripping out all of the unconscious cues of bias from this space.

Speaker 1:

No politics, partisanship, or policy here because well-being belongs to all of us. And we will all be better served if every human in leadership, regardless of party, ideology, race, or geography, are happier, healthier, and more connected. This show is about resourcing you, the human doing leadership, and trusting you to make up your own damn mind about what to do with it and what's best for your community. So as always, with love, here we go. Welcome all to the Healing Hour Politics podcast.

Speaker 1:

The show that shows you the heart centered leader, how to heal our politics by starting with the human in the mirror. Today, you are in for something special. I sit down with expert in nutrition, fitness, and brain health, Ashley Grimel. Ashley is the founder of Grimel Biometrics and the Fresh program. That's right.

Speaker 1:

She's a Twice founder where she trains UFC fighters, endurance athletes, race car drivers, other top performers, and normal ass human people. She is herself an ultra endurance athlete competing in, amongst other things, the world's toughest mudder, a, these numbers are not made up, folks, 75 mile, 24 hour continuous race with, in case you are bored, 350 plus obstacles along the way, such as freezing water submersion. She is also an elected Leaders collective board member and, simply put, the real deal. In this episode, we dive into how to improve your diet with minimal time and budget, how to lose weight and keep it off, how to improve brain health and longevity, using the human audit to enhance the quality of relationships and workflow in your life, the 7 S's of stress reduction, a lot of tactical stuff here, people, and how she was shaped through tragedy, death, sickness, and warning, this episode contains potentially triggering conversations, sexual assault, but it's real, and how you too can use your most trying moments in your life as requisite fuel for self improvement and betterment. I hope you enjoy this real, deep, personal, and highly tactical conversation with Ashley Gremel.

Speaker 1:

Ashley Grimel, welcome to the Healing Our Politics podcast, the show that shows you, the heart centered leader, how to heal our politics by starting with the human in the mirror.

Speaker 2:

What an intro. Bravo. Wow. You should keep that one. We'll keep that one.

Speaker 1:

We'll keep that one. So there are so many places that I want to go with you today. Your personal journey is a remarkable one. You have so much wisdom that you can impart to our listener things that they can apply in their own lives. So we are gonna kind of jump around all over.

Speaker 1:

I wanna talk about some of the more challenging experiences in your life that have ended up serving you, but I thought we would start just sort of at the beginning with a brief intro. If we were to put a image of little Ashley over here, maybe she's 5, 6, 7 years old. I'd love for you to just start by painting a little picture of who was that little girl, where was she, where did she come from?

Speaker 2:

I'd say little Ashley. 5 year old Ashley is a very small, timid, very, very shy, didn't really speak a lot, always in the perfect dress, always trying to make the littlest impact so I didn't disrupt the world around me. I was in Maryland with my family. At that point, I believe I was living with my grandparents, and I didn't wanna impact a lot and super, super shy.

Speaker 1:

Where do you think that came from?

Speaker 2:

At that point in my life, my mom had already been in the hospital for about a year of my life. And during that time, I was kinda bounced from family to family to see who would basically take care of me while my mom was sick. So I just really didn't wanna, like, disrupt anyone. But I sort of part of me feels like I came out of the womb that way. Like, I definitely wanted to be good.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to be right. And so that carried over into, well, in these other people's homes, be it my grandparents, my aunts, uncles, I just didn't wanna interfere with their lives.

Speaker 1:

All the movement, that just feel normal to you, or was it tough? Do you remember what your orientation was to being bounced around to different homes and caregivers?

Speaker 2:

You know, it's funny. At the time, I don't really remember thinking anything other than why can't I be with my mom. Mhmm. I really wasn't aware of the fact that it wasn't normal because it was all I ever really knew. I don't think it came until much later that I started to put some context.

Speaker 2:

Oh, so people actually lived with their families their whole life. That's interesting.

Speaker 1:

How old were you when you kind of realized that your situation was not normal?

Speaker 2:

I think it was sort of like a layering of realization. Probably, I remember in maybe middle school having this moment of going to my friend's house. I remember always thinking that their dads didn't like me because they were nice to me. Mhmm. And I didn't put it together that it was, oh, we have this quote, unquote typical family, what you see in, like, sitcoms and things like that where there's a mother, a father, or some sort of dual parent situation there, and they kind of live in this house for their whole life.

Speaker 2:

I didn't even pick up on my existence being or my upbringing being weird, quote, unquote, or atypical until, I would say, probably past high school. I didn't know any different, and there was never really a lull in the sort of chaos of things happening for me to recognize that anything wasn't normal or not normal, and there certainly wasn't any aspect of someone to tell me otherwise.

Speaker 1:

What do you think some of the stories or, like, programming you picked up during that time before you knew it was happening, but you mentioned not wanting to bother or impinge upon others. What are some of, like, the core stories that you think you picked up through that?

Speaker 2:

I think I just told myself that if I remained small or if I remained non impactful, that I would have a safer existence. I think I told myself that the less impact or disruption that I would cause, the less likelihood for any sort of tone or harshness or any sort of upset vibe from anyone. That story is sort of what I told myself up until probably not all that long ago.

Speaker 1:

And when did you first become, like, consciously aware that mom was not well?

Speaker 2:

I remember going to see her in the hospital when I was I guess I would have been 3. I remember she was kind of, like, green, and I just remember being like, that's not the right color. And I remember thinking, I guess it would have been my dad at the time telling me mom's very sick, mom's very sick, and when you're 3, you don't really understand what that even means. So to me, sick equaled hospital, people around bringing me weird gifts and food, and that's what sick was. It wasn't, oh, someone's going to die or someone is unhealthy.

Speaker 2:

It's more like a situation versus condition, if that makes sense. And then a little bit later in life, I remember thinking of sickness as I wouldn't have my mom, and then that trend kind of continued for much of my life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2:

I would say my mom getting sick when I was 3 for the first time, and she had a lot of health issues her whole life, but she became handicapped actually when she was in high school. Then fast forward to trying to give birth to my brother, she actually had gotten some bad blood through blood transfusions because she broke her leg in high school, had, like, 20 some surgeries, so then she had hepatitis, wasn't supposed to be having children Through

Speaker 1:

a blood transfusion.

Speaker 2:

Through a blood transfusion. She had osteoporosis, she couldn't walk, she was wheelchair bound, like, all this stuff, decided she was still gonna have a baby, me and my brother, miracles, what can I say? And then through that, my mom was in the hospital for a year with my brother. After that, it was kidney disease, liver disease, heart disease, you name it, my mom was sick literally my whole entire life up until the point when she passed away, 8 years ago now. But beyond that, it was then my aunts became sick, my grandparents became sick, my cousins became sick.

Speaker 2:

Pretty much anyone who could become sick with some sort of illness, I felt like it happened. It was almost like a repeating cycle of somebody getting sick, and they wouldn't even fully get better before somebody else got sick. So it was just constantly, like, who's dying the worst right now? And that's who I would go tend to, basically.

Speaker 1:

You became the caregiver Oh, yeah. Early on. Yep. Which you still do in so many ways. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think it's quite normal for a child to imprint on their surroundings as inevitable outcomes or at least highly likely outcomes? Was there part of you that expected that you would be sick, or is there part of you that ever thought you're such a picture of health right now? And so it's probably it would be surprising for people to see you, but I wonder if you ever had that thought or if you were in the opposite camp of, like, I will do the opposite.

Speaker 2:

I've always felt of myself that I would do the opposite, but opposite of that, I guess, or inside out of that. I almost sort of expect that the people around me in my life are the people that I expected. I don't know that I feel this way so much anymore, but I expect people that I get close to and that I love to become terminally ill. And that's something that has taken quite a lot of work to get through because it's very hard to build very close friendships and relationships with people when you're waiting for them to come to you with a terminal diagnosis.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. I can relate to this in a weird way because it's different, but I had so much movement of family members in my life as well. And so one of the core stories that I picked up is everyone will abandon me at some point. And it was similar to what you're saying. I love the relationships I have.

Speaker 1:

I relish them. I enjoyed them. I was into them. I expected to have good relationships, but even the closest friend, the closest lover, some part of my brain always assumed that they would be gone at some point.

Speaker 2:

It's an interesting thing. And then down the rabbit hole, my brain would go is like, well, don't let yourself get close to people because I almost felt like it was my fault, I guess. Like, I was the one bringing this upon them. Obviously, it's something that I had to really work through, but, yeah, very tough.

Speaker 1:

Very tough. I'm also curious about your mom's story.

Speaker 2:

Maybe just a little little woven arc. I think of my mom getting sick when I was younger as the first of a lot of shit. Mhmm. But, really, as far as where to go next, there's a lot, actually. And that's, I think, what's tough.

Speaker 2:

I've had an opportunity before when I was in a rehab facility where they asked me to sit down and write down every single significant event in my life, and every single significant event was something that I would now look at as significant trauma. Any one of those events would be enough to send most people into a lifetime of without the right tools, depression, sadness, and things like that.

Speaker 1:

Could you bullet point what a few of those that you would have written down at that time would have been?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I would say a big one was I have been raped multiple times in my life. First time would be by, actually, multiple family members when I was in 2nd grade. And as far as things that seriously and negatively impacted my life, I would say that is up there, number 1. I was never the same after that.

Speaker 2:

The other time was much later in my life when I was 21. I look at the instance when I was in 2nd grade as I went from being this really sweet even though I wanted to be small and I didn't wanna disrupt a lot of people's lives, I was still very kind and, like, I believed the world was good, and I loved to cuddle. I would crawl into my mom's hospital bed and love to cuddle with her. That, being raped took that away from me, and it closed me off from the world at a point where I needed the world and the people around me more than anything. I went from being in a place where, like, yes, I didn't wanna impact a lot, but I I then was just like this closed off box kind of navigating my way through the world, not really sure what was right, what was wrong.

Speaker 2:

Can I just ask rough?

Speaker 1:

So this happens, and it's a family member.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm. So,

Speaker 1:

presumably, this is someone you have to see semi frequently thereafter?

Speaker 2:

They lived in another state. They were cousins. I think it was probably arranged. I did tell my mom 2 days after. I believe that it was planned, but I never saw them again because I told my mom not because I wanted to, but after that happened, I had a problem where I couldn't get clean in my own mind, so I would scream and cry and beg to get back into the shower or the the bathtub, and I wanted my mom to get hotter and hotter, like I wanted it to be boiling.

Speaker 2:

My mom wouldn't let me and my grandmother wouldn't let me. It was the point where I remember, like, her trying to pull me away from the hot tub or the hot tub. What was that? Hot tub, basically, at that point, the tub, and I wanted to get back in. She couldn't figure out what was going on with me.

Speaker 1:

You're like a little kid. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I was in 2nd grade. And I just knew I I felt dirty. I felt dirty. I had done something really wrong, and I couldn't get the feeling off of me. I just wanted to clean myself.

Speaker 2:

So I told my mom what had happened. She just told me to never tell anybody of it again, that I I needed to never talk about it again. But then the next day at school, I remember I had this stuff coming out of me. I didn't even know what a vagina was at that point. And so I called her from the nurse's office, and I was like, mom, there's something wrong, there's stuff coming out of me.

Speaker 2:

And she came, took me to the doctor's office. And I remember she went into the doctor's office, and she must have told them the situation, but it was never reported. The doctor did what, I guess, a rape kit or something on me. And I remember the next morning, my aunt came in, who was the parent of the 2 that actually raped me. I remember she said, I'm so so sorry, and I saw her once again in my life, but I never saw my cousins again.

Speaker 2:

You

Speaker 1:

might not have any sense of this, but in conversations I've had with other people that have been victims of sexual trauma, the response of blaming yourself is frequent. And I'm not an expert, but I hear that from others a lot. Do you have any sense of why you went into that pattern?

Speaker 2:

I think for me, it was my mom's response. I also know that some of the language that was used by the people who raped me both times were, well, maybe not as much a second because there was not a lot of talking. It was, don't tell anyone. You're gonna get in so much trouble. You're gonna get in so much trouble.

Speaker 2:

You can never tell anyone about this. And then when that was echoed by my mom, never tell anyone about this. And I remember, like, thinking I did something really wrong here, really wrong here. Unfortunately, my mom didn't know what to do. I don't know that I would have known what to do if I were her, but that was not it.

Speaker 1:

Did you ever later in life get to talk to her and unpack this?

Speaker 2:

I did. Unfortunately, it was not very well received. Both instances of rape for me, my mom told, the second time my mom actually flat up told me it was my fault, and that had I not put myself in this position that it wouldn't have happened. And I was 21, so I knew better, but I still I was horrified. I wanted to believe my mom.

Speaker 1:

Can I just ask, what would she have said at that time? Was it a college story of, well, you were drinking, you were out late, you put yourself in that situation?

Speaker 2:

I was on my way to pick up my dog, and we my mom and I did a road trip together, and I had gone out with one of my friends and another person who I kind of knew from school, but not well. I guess we all ended up getting a hotel room because we had drank, and I woke up and the guy was on top of me violently raping me. And I told my mom that, and my mom told me that if I hadn't of led this person on, if I hadn't of put myself in a hotel room with this person, that none of that would have happened. And so I think later in life when I actually again, going back to rehab, a lot happened while I was in rehab. My mom, mind you, while I'm in rehab is also in hospice.

Speaker 2:

I was in Arizona, she was in Maryland, and I'm having this voice conversation on the speakerphone with her. And I remember looking at my therapist's face as my mom is saying still that it was my fault. And my therapist

Speaker 1:

Punch her through the this is pre Zoom Yeah. Where she might have

Speaker 2:

Pre Zoom? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I kind of want to right now. No offense to mom, but I just I

Speaker 2:

mean, this happened to me, and I always like to look even at that point, where do I have power in this? And if I had power in it at all, it was would have been my fault. And I always felt like anything was my fault. That's been my whole life. The lamp fell over on the other side of the room.

Speaker 2:

My fault.

Speaker 1:

You can't psychoanalyze mom posthumously, but it is hard for me as a male to hear these stories frequently of women, especially family members, blaming each other. But when I heard you say that, I'm like, is that the underlying intent of at least allowing you to have some form of power or agency? And that's how you it's just challenging for me to understand.

Speaker 2:

I think it's challenging for anyone to understand. It's interesting that it's pretty common things.

Speaker 1:

That's how it's reported to me, at least. Yeah. So here's the heavy follow-up question to all that, and thank you for sharing all that. Yeah. You will certainly not be and sadly not be the only person listening who's had that experience.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I know. But there's one thing I'm big on now. It's like, I don't know if I'm mad at myself. I'm disappointed in myself for not being more open about that part of my life sooner. Because I feel like there's so much power given to that instance, that terrible situation by shoving it away and and not discussing it because it makes it feel more and more shameful.

Speaker 2:

And the more that I've shared that part of my story slash spoken with other women, hearing women talk about the fact that they have or and men, that they have had that as part of their life. And the more that they're able to converse with it, almost like it neutralizes all of the shit that comes with it. If there's anything that, like, I would hope that me being so direct about that whole situation, let's fucking talk about it. It happens all the time. And I'm so over this, oh, like, let's just, you know, leave that over there.

Speaker 2:

It happens every day.

Speaker 1:

I mean, as a coach, one thing that I know to be absolutely true is that ownership is the single greatest healing balm, and ownership does not mean agreement, doesn't mean acceptance, but it means living with what is, and that anything we resist persists and it calcifies and it shows up in stress and autoimmune. In some ways, I almost think about it when Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela, held the reconciliation in South Africa following apartheid. It was not about condoning the behavior, but it was a recognition that public speaking of what happened was a prerequisite to release. And that without that, any hate or animus, however well earned, held within the person only hurts the person holding it. And so just to say it, it's a medicine for you.

Speaker 2:

It's a medicine for me, and it's also a medicine, I believe, for the other people who have been victims. And Well, because you're giving

Speaker 1:

them the permission structure as well to do the same for themselves.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Exactly. And I believe that it's freeing just to know that you're not alone. And that despite all of the stories that you like to tell yourself, it it is in fact not okay. In fact, will never be okay that that happened, and it will never be your fault.

Speaker 2:

And I think that is not discussed enough, actually. I shared with you I had a retreat this last fall, and and my retreats are are pretty special, and I always say people come to my retreats and it's just, they open up and that's what happens. But I asked the simple question of, I would like everyone to go around and say the proudest moment of their lives, and my intent was to have this uplifting, lighthearted, simple exercise. The person the woman next to me, first thing out of her gate was she said, proudest moment of my life was the day I got my nursing degree. Not because I got my nursing degree, but because my father who sexually assaulted me my entire life told me that I could never do it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and by the way, this is the first time I've ever said it in my entire life, and her son was in the room, both of her sons were in the room. I've known this woman forever. She literally just spewed it out. Then the woman next to her said something very similar. Around the room, almost every single woman in that room had that experience.

Speaker 2:

And to me, I mean and it was a retreat actually held in my hometown, and it was this moment of, like, oh my god. There is such a need for safe space, community, connection, comfort around this. And then from that revealing of what had been going on for these women, they then were able to have community and supportive network around something that's so negative, and just that act of sharing that transmuted something that was so negative and created an opportunity for something so positive.

Speaker 1:

So here's what's interesting to me about that example, and it's like a perfect segue to the next question I have about this, which is if we're evaluating how that happens, where the preponderance of women in a randomized sample have this experience, there's a couple things that could be happening, and we don't know which one it is in this scenario, but either it's so commonplace that that sample is representative. It's random chance, and it's a non representative sample, or there is a correlation and or causation between people who have been through something like that, who then end up at really intentional focus, self development retreats. That's the segue. That's kind of my assumption. Cause certainly I've been through a lot and that's why I've been in these rooms or something to work through.

Speaker 1:

I won't give away the top line age, but a number of years following those experiences. Do you think that there's been anything that you've learned from that or that you've acquired from those experiences that you now view as beneficial or positive, or is that just something that will forever be?

Speaker 2:

I would say, yeah, there's positive. Sounds kinda messed up, but that event for me, tiny bit of background, manifested into me not being able to touch people the majority of my life up until at the point when I was 25. I don't think I ever really had a positive sexual experience with a partner until maybe even the last couple years. And all that to say, the act of me having to work through that trauma has taught me more about myself for myself, but also how to hold space and be a good practitioner and understand people where they're at. And the level that I can connect with people on now, I attribute very much so to having been sexually abused.

Speaker 1:

I'm a firm believer. There are different camps on this, but that you can, as a coach or a teacher, only take people as far as you've been. Yeah. And there's a lot of people that would need that. And it's gonna be hard for some people to hear that, that there's a a positive about the other side, but Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:

The challenge really is the way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I believe that the more aggressive the adversity, the more potential there is for positive, actually. And maybe that's just because I've been through a lot that I I I have had to make myself believe that, but I can actually say I don't know many people in my life that are as consistently happy as I am now, but my enjoyment of life is, I believe, unparalleled, actually, and it's not fate. I deeply love life. And I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I don't think that that would have been possible without all of the stuff I've gone through.

Speaker 1:

I feel the same way. I mean, I've always had an orientation to kinda wanna suck the marrow out of life. Like, I really do enjoy it. There's no question about that, but there's a difference between what I experienced before, which is sort of a naive go lucky happiness and enjoyment of life that was really living without understanding anything that was going on because I was still in my block all emotions, feelings, stories phase, and just sort of walking around in a little bubble. Yep.

Speaker 1:

As opposed to having been through the muck, through the run, through the metaphorical ultra marathon, building confidence through experience that whatever comes up, I will not only be able to come out the other side, but come out stronger and happier. And so I was saying this to you before we started recording, like, this last 2 weeks is a big one for us, us being my partner and I, 2 strokes in 2 families, the falling through of a sale that had been, like, 6 months of 15 to 20 hours of work week for my mom closing the house when my grandma passed away and the last one of that generation. Some normal, but really annoying technical issues on this podcast that caused us to lose 6 episodes. You put all this time in. So just normal life stuff, but genuinely seeing all that and meeting all of that and being so happy in the car, gosh, I'm really handling this so well.

Speaker 1:

I'm like showing up so well for hard conversations. I'm holding people where they need it. I'm like being in integrity. And that only comes through that challenge.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Honestly, it's a skill. I say it's all about where you shine your spotlight. Anyone you listed off all those things. Some people, based on their interpretation of the information and the data available, would choose to shine their spotlight on all the negative things, stroke, oh my gosh, this person might pass away, or this person might never be able to walk again.

Speaker 2:

And that's where they're gonna shine their light. Right? Because you've gone through things and you know that that is life, that is going to happen, it's a choice then. You choose, do you shine your light on that, or do you shine your light on the areas of your life where you can actually expand on the positive and do something productive and move the ball forward. And that choice is such a gift.

Speaker 2:

It's really hard to realize you even have it, but it's really nice to be around people, like, such as yourself. Like, I love spending time with you because it's almost that affirmation that, yeah, other people are doing this too. It is possible to get through really anything if you maintain that orientation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Really anything. And whatever you focus on grows, and then soul mindset. Right? It's Yep.

Speaker 1:

Is this happening to me or is this happening for me?

Speaker 2:

Exactly. And sometimes that for me pill is a little hard swallow.

Speaker 1:

Yes. It is. I wanna go one of 2 directions. One is around your own physical transformation and specifically, like, weight and diet, and I'll talk about mine as well. I'd also love to talk about your athletic career, some of the races or events that you've been through, and what you have experienced and learned from in those?

Speaker 2:

They're kind of intertwined in a lot of ways. Perhaps we attempt to talk about them together.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I had quite the physical transformation. I used to weigh well over not well over, but good bit over £200. And now I I mean, if you can't see me, I I do not weigh that amount currently.

Speaker 1:

If I was preparing dinner after this podcast episode and I ran out of, say, a cheese grater or one of those things to make a carrot go, I would just use her abs, basically, is sort of what Oh my goodness. Sort of what we're dealing with here.

Speaker 2:

Wow. Well, that's, great. Help you wash any time. So, as far as physical transformation goes, yes, I have definitely had a physical transformation, but I also really feel like I've had a energy transformation. So I've gone from over £200 feeling literally like I every morning I would wake up, I hated my body.

Speaker 2:

I hated the way that my body felt just existing. To now, I have pretty much limitless energy. I feel phenomenal most mornings, and I actually love my body.

Speaker 1:

So I'm curious about the path that you got there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We both share that we will do PowerPoint presentations where there are pictures of our old self. I maxed out at 242. Yeah. I'm, like, 173 as I sit here now. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So that's a big big delta. For me, it was diet first, followed by exercise, followed by conquering addiction, which then opened the door to kind of all of the, let's call it, higher functions around mindset, spirituality. And then on top of that came sort of the systems, the practices, etcetera. But for me, I was always an athlete, and I would yo yo. I would get really big, and then I would get fit.

Speaker 1:

And then, I mean, you could literally look at my school photos and be like, is that the same kid each year? And I was eating my feelings because I was going through a really long and really challenging divorce. I didn't know that at the time. Still love to eat my feelings, all of them. Happy, sad.

Speaker 1:

I like to eat every single one. There's nothing left off the table.

Speaker 2:

Was my favorite flavor.

Speaker 1:

But I I had had one of the years where I was, like, fit, doing well. My football team won the championship. I was the captain. I was feeling great, and I, like, showed up the next year, and you do your weigh ins. And when you're in pee wee football, there are weight cutoffs.

Speaker 1:

And so skilled positions have to be under a certain weight, and I was over that weight. And so the coach was like, k. Well, you can't play your position anymore because of that. You can't be the captain anymore, and you're gonna play right guard, which no offense to any right guards out there, but to me, it was, like, mortifying at the time. And so I went home.

Speaker 1:

I think I was in 4th grade, and I told my mom that I wanted to go to Weight Watchers. And bless her, she took me. I still remember sitting there and watching the PowerPoint, but that's where it started for

Speaker 2:

me. How much younger were you than everyone else there?

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's hard because when you're in 4th grade, everybody looks 68. So they all looked that to me, but I have no actual recollection.

Speaker 2:

Great. Yes. Good. Wow.

Speaker 1:

I bring my little smoothies, my little, like, protein shake Counterpoint. Color yep. Counterpoint. Uh-huh. Wow.

Speaker 1:

So what was your path?

Speaker 2:

Mine also was not exactly linear. For me, unfortunately, my real prod to lose weight was I wanted to play field hockey in high school, and, I also was made fun of quite a bit for being overweight, and my cousins and my brothers would call me piggy princess. And I hated it. I hated it. The girls at school definitely would make fun of me.

Speaker 2:

I did get made fun of quite a bit in middle school, and I just didn't know why I was fat. So then I remember in high school, I wanted to play field hockey. Okay. Well, I need to lose weight. And then on the cover of Woman's World Magazine, I remember seeing at the grocery store, it said, low fat, low calorie diet, lose weight with this diet.

Speaker 2:

Great. That's what I'm gonna do. I didn't buy the magazine. I just stopped eating calories and I stopped eating fat, and I ate pretty much the exact same thing, which was white bread, ideally wonder bread with turkey and Texas Pete hot sauce every single

Speaker 1:

day. I'm I'm disappointed I don't know about Texas Pete because I like to think I know about all the hot sauces, so I have some homework to do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's really great on turkey sandwiches. Is it fair

Speaker 1:

wonder bread because you have to wonder if it's bread?

Speaker 2:

Probably. Yeah. And there's really nothing real about it. Highly bleached, highly enriched bread. So, yes, I did this.

Speaker 2:

And then, unfortunately, because of my upbringing, I had quite a lot of emotional attachments to food. My plan did end up working where I I did lose actually quite a bit of weight, but I would not say that I was healthy at all. I ended up being quite good at field hockey, actually. I lost the weight. I was able to get on the field hockey team.

Speaker 2:

Even though I was not healthy, I somehow was really fast, so I was like a truck barreling down the the field. I could knock people over very well, but I went from around 200 ish to around 180 ish. And then I think I was, like, 170, 1 60 ish back and forth through high school, which then by the time I got to college Should be said,

Speaker 1:

I mean, you're, what, like, 5, 6?

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

So you're still, like, a strong lady?

Speaker 2:

Strong lady. I was Yeah. Sick, but losing the weight at that point through high school was, to your point, a little bit of a yo yo. I'd lose it. I'd gain it.

Speaker 2:

I'd lose it. I'd gain it. But on my, Wonder Bread Diet, I, oddly enough, didn't feel good. I remember kind of losing weight and getting, like, started to get a little bit, people started making fun of me less. I started to have more friends, but I felt awful.

Speaker 2:

I felt so sick, which later I would come to find out part of the reason why is I had celiac disease.

Speaker 1:

Do you think at this point, you've gotten a taste of, if I lose weight, people will like me more, and so this became like the easy path to that?

Speaker 2:

I'll lose weight. People will like me. I didn't have to deal with people making fun of me. I hated I hated in fact, that trend of wanting to remain small and not have a lot of attention on me, like, if you're fat and people are making fun of you, then you're getting attention, and I didn't even wanna exist. I wanted to be kind of gone.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to be good at field hockey, I wanted to get good grades, and I wanted to not exist. Kind of a weird dichotomy, but, yeah. So I progressed through that and my relationship with food, not very healthy at all. And it wasn't probably until my junior year of college when I was quite sick and I was diagnosed with celiac disease that I actually sort of got a taste of what real nutrition was about. I remember the doctor was like, you need to eat this way or else you will not be able to survive.

Speaker 2:

And I was like, what? I can't eat all of my favorite foods including Wonder Bread? And so that journey kind of I should say that point was the point where I started to really focus on health over focusing on just trying to not eat fatter calories.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Because at this point, you've gotten the first sort of prescribed diet, and it's more of a restrictive. It's not a do this for optimum health. It's like, don't eat these. You'll feel bad.

Speaker 1:

But then when you remove those, all of a sudden, you're like, wow, I feel different. There's an obvious data point, and you come into the recognition that food, shocker, the thing that you fuels your body, can have an impact on how your body feels. If I put diesel or gasoline into the same engine, I'm gonna get a different result.

Speaker 2:

And I, I think that was the first time I ever really put that together, which is kind of mind blowing to me that it took that long, but I remember actually feeling healthy for the first time my junior year in college.

Speaker 1:

Did you play sports in college?

Speaker 2:

No. No. I loved skiing. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I all I wanted to do was ski and,

Speaker 1:

Me too. That's why I

Speaker 2:

went to SkiU. I went to DU, for the SkiU.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. SkiU is good for CU, University of Colorado, but we all called it SkiU. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Very good. We're also

Speaker 1:

on the ski team, so maybe we were a strange sample.

Speaker 2:

Probably.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna say that that probably had a little bit to do with it.

Speaker 1:

Yes. We used to joke, although maybe it was just an accurate descriptor that we were a drinking team with a skiing problem.

Speaker 2:

Wow. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It was a different life back then.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Wow. How far we've come

Speaker 1:

How far we've come.

Speaker 2:

As we drink tea.

Speaker 1:

So caffeine free because I'm off the sauce.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Yeah. Oh, fun times.

Speaker 1:

So do you ever have, like, a significant rebound, or is your weight journey one where from that initial weight loss, it just continues to progress?

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah. There was definitely a rebound. So through college, got healthy. Then, after college, I'd actually gotten into I'd always wanted to be a doctor, shocker, because everyone in my family was sick, and I wanted to be an oncologist. So got through school, I'd actually gotten into a couple of med schools and, was gonna go.

Speaker 2:

Well, I moved home for what was supposed to be just a couple of months, and in that time, my mom, who had had every single diagnosis under the sun, came to me and said that she had breast cancer. And I laughed in her face. I thought it was a joke. It was not a joke.

Speaker 1:

Why would that have been your reaction at that time? Because I would imagine you're, like, expecting her to say anything because she's had so much she's been through.

Speaker 2:

Well, honestly, what else? She had hepatitis, so kidney disease, liver disease, heart disease. At this point, my mom I had been told that my mom was going to die probably about 25 times, and I was about well, I was 21 at this time. So, literally, it was just sort of like, what else? And so when she thought that she had cancer, I was like, but you have everything else.

Speaker 2:

Like, you're not allowed to have that too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. This is a nervous, like, are you fucking kidding me laugh?

Speaker 2:

Yes. Correct. K. Got it. And I I literally thought that it was a joke.

Speaker 2:

And when she started, I looked at her face and I knew it wasn't. I remember sitting there thinking, like, well, there goes med school. And it wasn't even a choice. I wasn't gonna go, so I stayed home, with my mom and, we started down the whole cancer route. And I've been down this route many times before with my other family members.

Speaker 2:

It just this time was a lot closer to home because it was my mom. And when you've heard had someone tell you that they're going to die or a doctor tell you that somebody's gonna die over and over and it doesn't happen, you almost become numb to it. Like, it never really feels good.

Speaker 1:

The boy crying wolf.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Are you really gonna go this time? Let's see it. Okay. But I sort of had that mentality with this whole cancer thing with her because I was like, well, you have all these other diseases.

Speaker 2:

You can't really do typical treatment anyway. So, that is really where I started going into more of the alternative medicine route, the nutrition route.

Speaker 1:

Did your mom have a a really strong will to live?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. If you wanna talk about a strong woman Yeah. There is nobody stronger than my mother. This is a good example. She had a cesarean section with my brother with no pain medicine and no narcotics because she couldn't take it because her liver was failing and kidneys were failing.

Speaker 2:

Wow. So it was either the baby was gonna die or yeah. So that's how strong. And my mom, up until the day she died, she was helping other people with her finger from her hospice bed.

Speaker 1:

So you really inherit a sort of schizophrenic mindset from mom, which is on one hand, like, I am potentially harming. I need to be small. I'm but on the other hand, like, I can do anything.

Speaker 2:

Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Which is a really lovely dichotomy. Yes.

Speaker 2:

And going on with that, my mother, we would go into the doctor's office and she had stage 4 cancer. And, yeah, we have no idea how you're alive right now, but just keep doing what you're doing. Well, don't you wanna know what we're doing? And they'd be like, no. She couldn't get chemo anymore.

Speaker 2:

She couldn't do the radiation anymore because all of her other organs were already so shot from everything else. And for me, we're doing all these supplements, we're doing all this crazy everything that you could possibly do to try to keep someone alive with cancer.

Speaker 1:

This is where you're really starting to experiment with all the things that you end up bringing into your practice. Exactly. All these other modalities of healing and maintenance and

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And then going back to the weight issue, also developed a little bit of a interesting relationship with food going through some of the stressful times where I had a bit of a well, not a bit, quite the disordered eating situation in the flavor of bulimia, and that really progressed quite a lot through college. Right? Which is how we got on all this. The weight is what really got out of hand there because I had given up on my life temporarily to be there for my mother which wouldn't change that for the world, But then I certainly developed, I really liked to get out of my own way, like, I guess I would get out of my life and I would drink, I would eat a lot of food, and then I would got really into this whole binging and purging thing to try to feel like I was controlling my world around me.

Speaker 2:

So my weight actually went up quite a bit there. I would say it was probably about a 180 again at that time and really unhealthy. I was eating really good foods, but I was actually die hard vegan at that point, but I was not doing it in a way that served my body. In fact, it was just a way to control something. And in fact, at that time, my grandmother was sick, my other grandmother, my 3 grandmothers, also became sick.

Speaker 2:

So I'm hospice providing for, actually, at that point, 4 different people, and trying to somehow at that time keep myself together. So the way that I kept myself together was eating ton of food and throwing it back up because somehow that made me feel like I was okay. Weird.

Speaker 1:

At that time, so you're you are actively researching probably diet and all these things.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting. Right? Because you've made the choice for the vegan diet, which I imagine there's some health based component to that.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah. I mean, at the time, like, all the research that I had access to was saying that a vegan diet would cure cancer. I don't wanna get cancer, and I wanted to help support my mom in trying to go down a vegan diet route, and she never did. But it just seemed like, well, this is the right way. I'm gonna do the right way, But also at the same time, I'm going to throw up most things at you regardless, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but at the time, it was what made me feel like I was going to be able to get through it.

Speaker 1:

Well, I remember going back to my early twenties, where at that point, I was also I wasn't, like, pure vegan, but I was pretty close to it. I had my weight dialed. I was looking at that scale every morning. I was working out very intensely for, call it, 1 to 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I physically looked like I was in the best shape of my life at that point, and I was using cocaine 6 to 7 days a week.

Speaker 1:

I was sleeping probably about 4 hours a night while having a big real job that looked good in the real world. And luckily that could all happen for me. And I was drinking, I don't know, probably the equivalent of like 3 quarters of a bottle of hard liquor a day. So the path to healing is not linear. It's not an on off switch.

Speaker 1:

I was fond of saying when I would get cold blood, snarky emails from constituents back in the day, there are there are 2 types of people in the world. There are hypocrites and liars. Yes. Like, we are all hypocrites. We all are not in concert with what we know to be true or our best selves as part of the the human experience.

Speaker 1:

That's part of the path and it's part of the learnings. I'm not surprised, I guess, by that at all.

Speaker 2:

And I I do think, like, there's, if I am honest with myself and even, like, looking back now, like, I just I was watching my mom disintegrate in front of me. I was watching my grandmothers disintegrate in front of me. I'd already watched my other grandparents die and then my aunt also became sick, and so I just had all these people that I was hemorrhaging my energy into die. I just didn't wanna exist, if I'm honest. So, like, I would eat I believe now, and I know now every time you eat, you're basically choosing to continue to exist on this planet.

Speaker 2:

I was eating and then I was, fuck, I don't wanna be here. Literally, every single person, every single thing around me that I care about is dying in front of me.

Speaker 1:

So I'm gonna throw it back up?

Speaker 2:

So I'm gonna throw it back up so I don't have to keep doing it.

Speaker 1:

Mhmm. I think this is such a great example of the body, mind, spirit connection, weirdly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's something we don't often talk about or recognize that everything is connected.

Speaker 2:

Everything. Yep. And as soon as you just accept it, things get a lot easier because it's all connected.

Speaker 1:

I get 3 cheat meals a week now. Ashley actually gave me 4, but I went to 3. But I noticed, like, for example, this week, I will choose to spend those on more stressful days a lot of the time. And there's a past version of me that's still present. There's still a little voice that wants to, like, tell myself I'm weak or I shouldn't do that or I'm responding poorly.

Speaker 1:

And then there's the other part of me that realizes, like, actually, you just sometimes after a long race, you need a massage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. You love the word cheat meal. I and I've told you from the beginning. I don't believe in cheat meals.

Speaker 2:

I think that you have times where you intentionally choose to eat foods that serve your brain and your soul in a specific way versus maybe not perfectly checking all the boxes of what we see as being perfect in a nutritional realm. But I look at if I have a stressful day or even looking back at that time, I would eat the best food. Like, I would eat in the context of what I knew at that time, which was perfectly prepared vegan food. I had my own garden. I was growing my own vegetables.

Speaker 2:

I don't even know. And I was choosing to then put that back into a toilet or the side of the road or wherever I was. And it's almost this sense of, like, I don't deserve, and, you know, I listen to what you're saying. You're doing so much good in the world right now. If you need to have a meal that nourishes your soul or some, like, memory that you have that feels really comforting to you, abso fucking lutely do it.

Speaker 1:

I think for me, it's more of just the release valve. I'm a believer that in this life, for each individual human, there's sort of only so many fucks to give, and I like to imagine my fucks as, like, an animal balloon. And with training, you can expand or contract the size of your animal balloon, how many ducks that you have, but you have sort of a range that are biologically available to you. And so through atrophy by not training or expansion by training, maybe you can increase that by 50% volume, reduce it by 50% volume, but it's never going to take up the volume of the whole room.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And when something really challenging goes on, it's like you're squeezing the leg of the dog in the animal balloon, So you're kind of moving your fox in this case around your animal balloon. And so for me, a lot of the times it's just, okay, all my legs got squeezed today. I'm gonna eat a pizza. That's sort of how it presents for me. I don't know if you have Interesting.

Speaker 1:

But it's more of a release valve for me and it it satiates me. And if I can keep it within, which is why I do use the word cheat meal. If I can keep it within particular parameters, then I know I have the confidence that it's not gonna harm me long term. It's not gonna harm my fitness. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm not gonna fall off the cliff of physically feeling bad, lowering my aptitude, then Yeah. Falling into the story of that. And so that's acceptable. But I also know from experience that for me, I love to do what I'm already doing, and so I can fall into the pattern of doing that every day, and that leads to a place where I will not be happy, fulfilled, or effective. And so, for me, having those informal guardrails is helpful, but it's not for everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Totally. Exactly. You are actually always blow me away with your analogies, Kippy. Now I do eat and fuel myself with an abundance of purpose, but I also would say, like, my version of what you might term as a cheat meal, I would almost I don't even think of it as something that's outside of Parameter.

Speaker 2:

Parameters. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yes. I'll pick it back up, but I wanna make this applicable for people listening. Sure. Because many people listening will be at the very beginning of this journey. Maybe they've never really followed a diet.

Speaker 1:

Maybe they've tried here or there, but nothing stuck, or they will be in a position that I've certainly been in service roles where you're sort of always on. This stress, the feeling of needing to be on never leaves, or at least, in your perception at this moment Yeah. It doesn't. And so it's hard if you take the example I had of, like, needing that stress relief not to use that mechanism all the time, and the diet tends to be really bad. And so how would you start working with a client who is sort of at square 1, who's in a high consequence job in helping them think about the fuel that they're putting into their body?

Speaker 2:

Well, you are you already started by thinking of it as fuel. And, really, I think it would begin with a little bit of education. So before you can change any habit, you have to have an understanding of why. Right? And if you understand that every single thought that you have requires an amino acid, which is a building block of a protein, and minerals and vitamins.

Speaker 2:

Every single one. Right? So if you have a high stress job and you tell me that your nutrition doesn't matter, you're wrong. Right? If you're an athlete, just firing those muscles and having the nervous system signal to fire the muscle requires nutrients, proteins.

Speaker 2:

Your neurotransmitters are actually proteins, and minerals, and vitamins, and all of those things have to happen for that response to happen. And so the first thing would be just to understand that your ability to do anything that you wanna do even mildly okay depends on the quality of the food that you eat. So the quality of your goals, the quality of your potential, your ability is linked directly back to

Speaker 1:

the food choices that you make. Break that down a little bit more because something else that I've heard you say is if you're telling me you're given a 100%, but you're not focused on brain health, you're lying. And so if you're in a leadership role, whether you're a teacher or a police chief or a city council person or mayor, you're using your brain a lot. We help. Break us down to sort of the neuronal synaptic place.

Speaker 1:

What's physically happening in the gray matter between your ears, and then what are, as you said, the nutrients, proteins, etcetera, that are required for that to function, and then where do those come from in our diet?

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about okay. You you want to think a thought. Right? Now first and foremost, you have to actually have the nutrients that you need, which would be, I would say, sodium, huge one. I love sodium.

Speaker 1:

B Pro Sodium.

Speaker 2:

Magnesium, potassium. This isn't even getting into the b vitamins. You need all of your vitamins and all of your mineral status to be pretty topped up at all points in order to have a very clear thought.

Speaker 1:

And a great way that we know this is before we came over here and we took longboats rides around the ocean, people would show up on the other side either dead or non brain functioning because they had scurvy.

Speaker 2:

Scurvy. Vitamin c. Took out

Speaker 1:

more travelers than anything else, and it's just a simple vitamin c deficiency. You add a little vitamin c, and then all of a sudden, all the sailors are making it to the other side.

Speaker 2:

Nailed it. Yep. But then you take it a step further and you think about every single thought, every single little boop, which is this is a little neuron firing. So if you think of your neuron as we'll use my hand. Right?

Speaker 2:

In order for your fingers, which would be the neuron in this case, to send out a nerve impulse, it actually has to build up potential. Right? So you have to have almost like a buildup of, like, a pimple. It's a really bad example. We're gonna use it.

Speaker 2:

Buildup of pus inside, and that pus inside is going to be minerals, actually. And there's this buildup of minerals inside that then creates almost like a little to be sent out the fingertip of your neuron to go to the other hand.

Speaker 1:

In the same way that if I'm drinking a glass of water and I've I'm really thirsty. I'm in the desert. I'm so parked. Someone hands me a glass of water, and I chug the whole thing, but I'm still so thirsty. And there's, like, one drop at the bottom, and I watch it slowly careen down.

Speaker 1:

And then it waits on the edge until it pools, and then there's enough potential energy that it drops into my mouth.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

I just rescued you from your pimple analogy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, I was trying to think of a better analogy. Yeah. Maybe I need more minerals today. But, essentially, what you're looking at doing is building up potential so that there's enough, I guess, potential for that to fire.

Speaker 2:

Right? And if we don't have enough minerals in our body, like sodium is a huge one, then that firing will be really sluggish or won't be strong enough. And then to add to that, if you don't have enough amino acids or if you're deficient in amino acids because you're following a really low calorie restricted diet or you're not eating protein, you actually won't have the building block for the chemical signal to even exist in the first place. And so this is where we start to get into this thing of, like, I'm not saying that people oftentimes, they just won't eat or they'll go to, like, McDonald's, and that'll be their breakfast that they have because they're stressed out the morning of a big meeting. And what they're essentially taking in is a whole bunch of chemicals and toxins and processed things that are going to cause it to be difficult for that food to break down into those individual building blocks, then you take it a step further and there's also a whole bunch of toxins and neurotoxins in that food that then actually almost gunk up the area between where those signals are going to be sent.

Speaker 2:

Then you also have the inflammation that is caused in your gut which prevents some of the neurotransmitters from being produced in your body and then eventually into your brains, meaning that you're not going to think clearly enough. And then you take it a step further and you have essentially a gum around the lining of your brain so that the signals from your body to your brain aren't even able to get there. And so we start to break it down, and it's like, there's a lot of breakdowns that can occur.

Speaker 1:

What I'm hearing is that the human brain is a little bit like a BMW 1200 GS motorcycle, which is

Speaker 2:

I think of it as a Porsche.

Speaker 1:

Designed fine. No. It's not a Porsche. This is an analogy. I'm gonna tell you why.

Speaker 1:

A Porsche requires precision fueling. Porsche is currently working on efuels, for instance, that would allow for higher efficiency than dyno based fuels. BMW GS, it's a Enduro motorcycle that's really designed to go across anywhere. So you take it across the the spine of Africa, and so it's designed to be able to work with, like, any fuel. So you could throw in the premium fuel it's would love or the shittiest fuel you can throw in diesel.

Speaker 1:

You can throw in biofuels. You can put in anything, and the thing will run. It will get you to where you're going because it's designed to be incredibly hardy and to deal with uncertainty, just like the human mind is designed to deal with drought and famine and all these things. But if you're not on 93 octane fuel, it's going to be running really poorly. It's gonna be slower.

Speaker 1:

It's gonna be causing internal damage. It will not run as long or as well. But if you only been getting to work every day on diesel, you don't really know that it's not functioning well because that's the only experience you've had. Yep. Nailed it.

Speaker 2:

I don't know anything about motorcycles, Skippy.

Speaker 1:

They're really fun. That's the main thing. And dangerous. Don't do it guys, but also maybe do it a little bit. I always joke.

Speaker 1:

There's like, there's 2 things, no matter how much you love them, you would never recommend a friend who's never tried it, try it, and it's like smoking in motorcycles?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. But great analogy, and, really, that's what a lot of people don't you can't really say that you've given it your all until you've gotten to the other side, lived there for a while, then tell me that you're doing everything. And that's where when you experience, and I say I say this from having lived on both sides, I remember not being able to think at all. Right? Like, I didn't even know which way was up.

Speaker 2:

And now to have, like, such clear brain, my mind is clear. Right? And, like, that feeling is unparalleled. Like, I wouldn't trade that for really anything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So now somebody has some sense of the fuel that they put in their body affects the way their brain works. Maybe they have some nagging feeling of, gosh, I really wish I could lose £10 or I don't love the way I look in this shirt or I do kind of feel tired and foggy. I'm curious if part of me wants to know if there is a better thing for me, and they also just see their diet. Maybe they're like, oh, I do eat a lot of fast food, or

Speaker 2:

I do

Speaker 1:

eat a lot of processed food. A lot of the things that I eat come out of a box. What would be your advice on how to begin to experiment with something different?

Speaker 2:

I like the word experiment there. The first thing that I would do is it depends on your bandwidth. If you are really ready to give it a solid go or if you, like, I wanna do one thing. If you were gonna do one thing, I would have you just attempt to go 1 week, go 2 weeks without anything from a box. See if you can do it.

Speaker 2:

Right? If you can't do it, try to at least do 2 weeks with being able to actually read every single thing on the way.

Speaker 1:

So what is the easiest way to do that? Because I fully prescribed to not eating out of a box, but the biggest challenge with that, in my experience, is time, food preparation, and people have tight schedules. So what would be the way to eat only whole real foods, non box foods, with the minimum investment in time?

Speaker 2:

It would be finding recipes that are very simple, and this is where it can get there is a reason that my job exists. We're giving people simple tools, simple recipes to get started with, but maybe pick 3 recipes that you really, really like that are simple. For example, my go tos for people that are first starting on is some type of a really nutrient dense smoothie, some type of egg concoction because I do believe that eggs are the most phenomenal fuel source. Eggs, some sort of a smoothie, and, like, when I say eggs, like, you can do this as far as, like, just getting some couple of vegetables, scrambled eggs, have that be breakfast. Heck, that can be lunch too if you want.

Speaker 2:

I oftentimes rely I do eat a lot of animal protein right now. It it feels good to me, so some sort of ground beef with vegetables. So you get a couple of vegetables that you're gonna rotate through, forget your eggs, and then you get your smoothies. If you can do that for a week, chances are you are gonna feel like an absolute different person, and those recipes can take 10 minutes to make.

Speaker 1:

If someone was particularly stubborn about this and they're like, I'm not cooking anything, I don't know my way around the kitchen, I live in a studio, I don't even have a knife.

Speaker 2:

So then what are they eating?

Speaker 1:

Well, they're they're probably either buying packaged premade foods in the grocery store or they're eating out. But my question is, are there any known widely available, whether it's like a fast casual restaurant or a section in a normal grocery store where you could buy something that's ready to go that would meet these criteria?

Speaker 2:

I think so. Normally, what I actually would have someone do, and it it depends on their how much they're willing to spend, but if they're already purchasing food out, chances are they're spending around $13 ish a meal. Right? Give or take. Unless you're going to McDonald's and only ordering off the dollar menu, which then we have a different arena to look at.

Speaker 2:

But there's plenty of meal delivery services that are actually pretty good. Megafit is pretty reasonable. There's ice age meals, which can be pretty reasonable depending on what you order. Essentially, they're would arrive, they're ready to go, and they come to your doorstep. So that's typically the route that I recommend people go if they're not willing to make food.

Speaker 2:

And the reason why is a lot of the stuff at the grocery store, like, it's so nuanced. Like, there are good brands or decent brands out there, but half the time, these companies are being bought, like, I just found out one of, I can't remember even the name of it right now. There's a brand that I really like that just got bought, and they changed their ingredients. So I feel like a lot of stuff in the grocery store, I I'm having to basically spend hours of that time updating myself on what they're doing.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So the delivery is, I think, a great option. It's set it and forget it. You can do it for a week or 2. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So that gives people okay. So now they're trying to eat just real food for a week or 2. What are they looking for? How will they know if it's working?

Speaker 2:

Different people have different metrics. Right? If you're someone coming to me who is looking purely for, body composition change, that's a very clear thing to look for. But more often than not, the first thing that people notice, provided that they're not coming off from a very, very processed diet. If you're coming off of a processed diet, the first day 3 and day 4, you could probably feel a little bit like you got hit by a bus because your body kinda goes through this detoxing, recalibrating effect.

Speaker 2:

So we're gonna pretend like this person has a decent diet and they're not doing that just for the sake of simplicity. Mhmm. But first thing they often report is I feel lighter, I feel clear, my brain is working better. Usually, within the 1st week, people notice that they don't have to use caffeine quite as much. Oftentimes, people will notice that their sleep improves, their mood improves, their mental clarity improves.

Speaker 2:

Those metrics oddly enough improve more often or more quickly than their actual body composition, which is a good thing because that's what I care more about usually for people. Then also oftentimes, I would say people lose a lot of the initial water weight pretty quickly too, so they'll probably lose sometimes depending on their size, 10 to £5 of just inflammation in the course of sometimes a week or 2 weeks, which is very fun. And I do these programs all the time with people. So if people want to get on a program, they'll start with me, and I kind of almost know the tick marks of when certain things are gonna happen. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

But the first one is almost always to bring clarity.

Speaker 1:

So we go through the test and now we're okay. I've noticed some benefit. I'd like to lean into this more. I don't wanna go run marathons, but I just would like to be generally healthier, feel better on my skin, feel good with my partner, that type of thing. How would they think about what diet would be best for them?

Speaker 2:

It's very dependent on but first of all, there's non negotiables. Right? So the non negotiables are, you can't be eating a bunch of toxic food. Right? So meaning, ideally food that is not from a box, ideally food that does not have added chemicals or synthetic vitamins and stuff like that in it.

Speaker 1:

And we would identify those, like, if you were giving people a quick cheat sheet where they were not trying to do a lot of homework, here's the 3 things to follow to get this rate 80% of the time. What would they be looking for? Like, highly processed food. So boxes, what would be those kind of bullets?

Speaker 2:

Don't eat food from a box.

Speaker 1:

That's a little confusing, I think. You tell me if I'm right. Ritz cracker is in a box, and it's a food you wouldn't wanna eat. It's got 600 ingredients in it. It's something.

Speaker 1:

But you could also, for instance, get a box of beautifully regeneratively raised steaks that come in a box.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Hopefully, people are using their best judgment when they're using a little bit of discernment when they're hearing this. But if you can read all the ingredients on the label and you know what those things are and you can just go find them, you're doing darn good, and that's fine. There's certain, like, packaged foods, sure, that is gonna be better than the rest. But what I would say is if you know what every single ingredient on that label is and you could go find it relatively easily, you're fine.

Speaker 1:

Okay. That's great.

Speaker 2:

The next thing would be to eat my baseline is 0.6 times your body weight and protein every day, if you can. And this number is just number that I found to work well for most people. If you're more active or you're trying to lose weight, you might wanna certainly probably eat a lot more than that. If you're highly sedentary and you're not doing a lot, which I would encourage that to change too, then you could be around that 0.6 mark.

Speaker 1:

And now a quick break from our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is supported by Elected Leaders Collective Foundation silver donors, Jake Pates and Isaac Flanagan, all the way from Ukraine, and gold level donor, Stefan Plakta. This wouldn't be possible without you guys, and I thank you so much. If you like what you hear on this show, please go to electedleaderscollective.com. Click the donate button to support future episodes.

Speaker 1:

So if I weighed 200 pounds, you want 12 pounds of meat?

Speaker 2:

In grams of protein.

Speaker 1:

Oh, grams of protein.

Speaker 2:

Right. I was like, what? So 120 grams

Speaker 1:

if you weigh £200.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Got it. Okay. I was like, because I like to eat, but that even does a lot to do.

Speaker 2:

I often encourage people to keep that number, their ideal body weight. Like, so 0.6 times your ideal body weight in grams of protein per day.

Speaker 1:

And you used to be on a vegan diet. I used to be on a primarily vegan diet. Neither of us are at this time. What's your current understanding of the science on whether that type of diet is right for you or not? And if it is right for you, what are your alternative protein sources?

Speaker 2:

Great. Actually, it's funny because I I do actually have some clients where I think a vegan diet is very, very good for them. The things that I look for are their heritage, if they're from an area where their ancestors just didn't eat a lot of meat. There's a few tropical a lot of tropical climates, but even then, there still was often some bugs and things like that. Like, you need to do it therapeutically.

Speaker 2:

Meaning, I do have some cancer patients that I actually would advise a vegan diet for

Speaker 1:

for a period of time. You're eliminating inflammatory response?

Speaker 2:

Inflammatory response, and some people just don't break it down. If you eat meat and you don't feel good, and you're eating good quality meat, there's something more going on. Actually, so certain enzymes and things like that, you really do require a lot of good enzymes to break down animal proteins. So Mhmm. At least initially, I might have someone be on a vegan diet for period of time as we're getting their enzyme production back up, or we might even be supplementing with some enzymes.

Speaker 2:

And then there usually is this tipping point where they either come to me and they're like, I don't know what happened, but I'm craving a burger today. And, you know, I I actually advise we'll look at their labs and usually there's something that they need in the meat. They'll have some meat and they feel great and they feel fine. I would say the times that I find vegan diets to be really great for people is, like I said, if they have the genetics where they just don't break down animal protein well, which usually coincides with their lineage, just didn't have a lot of animal protein. And then every now and then therapeutically, I think it's a good thing for people.

Speaker 2:

But more often than not, I'm advising at least most of my clients have some form of animal protein in their diet. Mhmm. Now most of my clients are not eating £5 of steak a day. They're not eating charred food, charred steaks.

Speaker 1:

The best kind.

Speaker 2:

But what they are eating is intentionally sourced animal protein because it is just one of the best ways to get in my experience, having been on all ends of the spectrum, I really do find that it works best for most people. And the people who I would very rarely advise go on a vegan diet would be anyone with anxiety or depression.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Say more about that.

Speaker 2:

I cannot tell you how much of a difference I see in clients with I describe it, it's more of an energetic thing, and and here's where I'm gonna go away from the science and into personal experience, but there's some evidence to back this up. K? I believe and I have seen that there's almost like this grounding sense that comes from eating animal protein, specifically red meat. Bonus points if it's wild game. But I have seen people almost have, like you pick up on them having almost like this they're, like, floating around in space.

Speaker 2:

They have a lot of anxiety. They're almost, like, shaky and they shift from topic to topic. Usually, there's a, like, a little flavor of ADHD in there that I pick up on, and they'll tell me I've been on a vegan diet for however long, like, it helped me lose a lot of weight, and I really like it. And I'm like, okay. As they start telling me that they've noticed, like, their hair feels, like, a little bit brittle, their skin doesn't feel quite as soft, and then they start telling me about this mental emotional stuff.

Speaker 2:

They just have a lot of anxiety and they don't really feel settled. If I can convince them to do a little bit of, like, organ meat, it's almost like instant. That anxiety and that internal shakiness goes away.

Speaker 1:

What's your theory? And then recognizing it's speculation and a theory, but

Speaker 2:

Well, one, there's a lot of, like, minerals and vitamins and things like that in the organ meat, but there is something really grounding. And even in Chinese medicine, they talk about animal protein being, like, something that's very, like, grounding and, like, earthing. And I think it does kind of earth them back down in a sense.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting. It so tracks with my experience. For me, a vegan diet was entirely about weight control. Yeah. I love to eat.

Speaker 1:

And when your food is less calorically dense, it was the first time when I tried something that I felt I can eat whatever I want, and I won't get fat. Yep. And that for me was everything to not be, like, just worried about that all the time

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

Freaking out about it all the time. And I always kept meat in my diet because, for me, traveling is, like, the most important thing. And Yeah. If I'm going to another country and I can't eat whatever I see, I am not traveling. I might as well not be there.

Speaker 1:

And so I didn't wanna lose the enzymes or the ability to process.

Speaker 2:

Totally.

Speaker 1:

And so I would do meat, like, one meal a week just to keep that up, but then the rest vegan. And that totally worked. But I built the story in my head and you blew my mind on this this summer. I built the story in my head that that was the only way for me to stay trim and fit. And I also, I should say, over that period, which was by about a 10 year period, I had times where all I did was trail run and I was really lean.

Speaker 1:

And I had times when I lifted weights, I was really strong. Like it didn't seem to have any impact on that. But when we made the switch this summer so I went to Ashley and I said, hey. I'm in my mid thirties now. I'm starting to think about things like muscle retention and power being like physical power in athletics, joint mobility, etcetera.

Speaker 1:

And so I am open to any new program to work on these, and we came up with a handful of targets. They included increasing certain lifts by x percent, being able to run a particular race, in this case, the power of 4, which is like a ultra marathon 50 k with some up and down, the power, like the speed in a mile, and then just generally feeling good and strong in my body. And one of her recommendations was to not just reintroduce animal protein, but really prioritize it. And it was a scary thing for me. I was like, okay.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna trust you. But the little voice from 14 year old me was like, you're gonna get fat. You're gonna get fat. You're gonna get fat.

Speaker 1:

You're gonna get fat. And it's been really revelatory to see my diet shifted so much. And not only has that not happened, but I've actually gotten leaner, and it hasn't been through CR, hasn't been through calorie restriction. I'm eating plenty. And so the lesson that I'm that I think I'm learning through that is it's not about meat or non meat.

Speaker 1:

It's about eating real food.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Eating real food and also, like, there isn't a plant based source. I mean, I I can just feel the I'm not The

Speaker 1:

Internet stands for you.

Speaker 2:

A vegan diet. I repeat, I am not against a vegan diet.

Speaker 1:

Is there a vegan mafia out there gonna The

Speaker 2:

vegan mafia is gonna

Speaker 1:

come together for my

Speaker 2:

sleep. Alright.

Speaker 1:

Guys, girls, let her be.

Speaker 2:

Let me be. Because I I've been there. I I love it. I love the plants.

Speaker 1:

Do. I

Speaker 2:

love plants. I love it. K? But I also will say that there is something to be said for the amount of protein per bite and the nutrients and the b vitamins and the forms of the vitamins that are already processed for our body that you can get in the form of animal protein. Thin.

Speaker 2:

Okay? That's it. Right? That's that is it. For most people, you also have to have some veggies in there too because there's a lot of benefits there.

Speaker 2:

We I could go on for days. Not going down that rabbit hole. What I find is you can get so far on a vegan diet. And if you were to be, like, doing really, like, light exercises, like you're doing a lot of yoga and you're not doing a lot of exercises that really get in the in your gut, I call it, like, your, which isn't a word.

Speaker 1:

In the,

Speaker 2:

Like, that sort of exercises where you're redlining and you're really charging it, or you're you're doing an endurance exercise to the point where you get to the point where you you know that feeling and, like, it's coming from a place that is different than your chest. It's coming from your gut. Mhmm. And that type of exercise really, really, really does benefit from the incorporation of animal protein.

Speaker 1:

And also for others listening, they're gonna hear for some, they will hear this meat comes preprocessed with all these other things through the living of that animal, the animal eating of the grasses, the animal eating of the vegetable refuse, processing that, and they are gonna have some reaction of, like, yes, and that's a wildly inefficient process that's hurting the planet because we're putting this much water and this much feed into something. And for the person who has that thought, I just want to invite you to allow that thought to be there. That's okay. We do need to think about the health of the planet and ecosystem and that, and don't let that reaction inhibit you from hearing what we're really talking about Exactly. Which is the health of the human brain and the human body and your experience as a leader.

Speaker 1:

If those are your concerns, there are other ways that you can address that, luckily and increasingly. And so that's a separate conversation. But if you're listening to this to really get the benefit out of what you're hearing, allow that story to come into the background and just hear how the food is interacting with your own physiology without thinking of the outside world.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Which there's so many things like how was the animal raised and all of that stuff plays, like, a huge role in how it impacts you. Like, there's an energetic component that comes through that. Absolutely. But if I had it my way, I would personally go out and kill and hunt and eat that food, and I have done that.

Speaker 2:

And I believe that that is the way that we would probably be best served to eat, but it's not gonna happen. Okay.

Speaker 1:

So you're looking at 0.6 ratio grams to pounds of protein. If you are one of the people who a vegan diet would be best for or a vegetarian diet, where are you looking for the sources of protein?

Speaker 2:

A lot of legumes because, unfortunately, I don't love soy. I think soy at one point was fine for people, but I think we've just overdone it so much and it's far from what it once was. It's just people don't do well with it.

Speaker 1:

I mean, soy is the Asian wheat. Right? So it's just like it's been so overproduced that unless you're highly specifying your source of it, you're likely to come with a lot of downstream effects of industrialization. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. So I say legumes, beans, or well, beans, duh. Legumes, seeds, and nuts, that's really, like, kinda what you're left with. And then vegetables like broccoli and things like that do have some

Speaker 1:

Carniferous? Is that correct? Cruciferous. I always get that wrong.

Speaker 2:

They do have actually a a good bit of more more protein than you would be surprised with how much they actually have in them, but you need to eat a lot of it. So the problem with a vegan diet is in order to get quite that amount of protein

Speaker 1:

problem. I say dream.

Speaker 2:

You're eating a lot, and you're eating a lot of foods that commonly cause a lot of gas for people. So, you have to have a really robust digestive system to be on a vegan diet and get that amount of of protein, which is some people can do it, but oftentimes, they are relying on the soy and the things like that and the protein powders to get there. And that's how they wanna go about doing it, and that's how they feel best. Fine. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Perfect.

Speaker 1:

I feel comfortable. We've got a a kind of broad road map for healthy eating that people can try without getting into hyper details of high performance athletes. Because if you're listening and you're a high performance athlete, you've probably already crossed these Rubicons and several more. But what are the primary differences if you are getting to a place of just normal maintenance as a healthy person, and you're like, okay, I wanna go from this to an active normal person, whether that's a daily 30 minute run or waits a couple times a week or kind of a weekend warrior event type of a thing. What would be the primary differences just in basic terms between a normal semisedentary maintenance diet and a more active diet?

Speaker 2:

I mean, ideally, every person is more active.

Speaker 1:

Sure.

Speaker 2:

Put that there

Speaker 1:

k.

Speaker 2:

Just because I have to say it. The biggest thing would be, 1, slight increase in protein. Right? So you might go up to 0.7 times your body weight. Then the other thing would be an increase in the amount of carbohydrate.

Speaker 2:

Right? So sugars. Sugars in general are something that I rarely recommend that people have added sugar in their diet except for directly before or during exercise. If people can do that, it would they will be blown away at how much better they feel. Now mind you, I'm saying specifically added sugar and or high carbohydrate foods.

Speaker 2:

I am not saying that carbohydrates are bad. I'm saying that I would advise more carbohydrates be used for someone transitioning to a higher activity diet or higher activity lifestyle than if they're doing nothing at all. Yeah. That would be the one change.

Speaker 1:

So let's do the shift to exercise and let's lead with you. K. Because you have done some fairly extreme exercise activities over the years. Yeah. Would you give us like a little bit of a highlight reel?

Speaker 1:

And I'm gonna give you permission to, like, brag on yourself a little bit. You get a 30 second brag where the intention is to, like, be like, holy shit. You did what? I know this why I'm giving you this permission here. I know that.

Speaker 2:

Let's see. So I have ran for 24 hours straight, 4 times in my life. And not only did I run for 24 hours straight, I did so under very extreme conditions, sub freezing temperatures twice in a wet suit and did obstacles during that time. So I ran for 24 hours in the events, world's toughest butter, and then one of the other times was actually for a a charity event for, actually, mental health for soldiers. Basically, you run-in circles, 5 mile loops for 24 hours straight, and there's about 30 to 40 obstacles.

Speaker 2:

I think it's 36 obstacles every single loop, and I did that several times.

Speaker 1:

Every 200 yards or so.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

For 24 hours.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and you're in mud, and it's freezing, and you're in a wet suit, and you're getting in and out of water, and it's pretty intense.

Speaker 1:

What is the most cumulative miles you've run-in any given event, single event?

Speaker 2:

70. Actually, the last 24 hour race I did was that. It was 70 miles, which was the longest I'd ever ran, and it's something that at that point, I think only, like, 10 women had done in the course of WTM Wow. Which is world's toughest mother. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Wow. Yeah. I ended up actually being I got 3rd in my age group and 6th in the world. Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Which was the probably one of the prouder moments of my life.

Speaker 1:

How does one prepare for something like that?

Speaker 2:

You never are fully ready. Right. How do

Speaker 1:

you try to prepare for something

Speaker 2:

like that? You do all the things, which is why it's kinda fun. You essentially are instead of, like, getting ready, you're hedging your bet against failing. Failing to me would be having I really wanted to get that 70 I guess 75 mile bib. I think that's what it was.

Speaker 2:

We'll just say it was 75 for sake of this. But 75 mile bib because I oddly enough dated a guy who told me that I couldn't. Well, he told me I would never be able to get the 60 mile bib or 50 mile bib. Whatever. I don't even remember.

Speaker 2:

See, this is how insignificant it was. And so for me, I really wanted to get that bib, so I just trained and I trained and I ran all the time. I lifted weights. I would actually wake up at different times of the night and morning just try to do some exercise just to see how my brain would function at different hours because you're basically running and jumping and having to, like, grab bars and, like, swing across stuff at all hours of the night. So you have to kind of, like, get your brain able to be awake and ready at all times.

Speaker 2:

You pretty much do anything and everything you can to be active and suffer.

Speaker 1:

And how much did you suffer?

Speaker 2:

It doesn't feel good to run for 24 hours straight.

Speaker 1:

What lap or mile were you at roughly when you first started to feel like, oh, I'm sore. I'm hurting. I'm tired. I imagine it's pretty early on.

Speaker 2:

This particular race was actually in the desert. So around mile 15, I remember realizing there was something wrong with one of my toes. So the sand actually had gotten in between my toes, and so it had started to, like, push my toe in and my toenail up. And I remember I had to stop by my pit because you're required to have a pit crew of people who basically make sure that you don't die during this. And I took my sock off and I remember realizing, like, I'm only I'm all 15.

Speaker 2:

Like, I had a conversation with myself that while it hurt then, I was going to choose not to feel my feet for the rest of the race. And I put my socks back on, and I started running, and I remember feeling it again. And I was like, you know what? I literally, like, was following in my mind's eye, and I put a nerve block in both of my feet. And I did not feel my feet again until, I would say, about 30 minutes after the race was over, and I took my shoes off when I was in the car.

Speaker 2:

And what

Speaker 1:

did you see?

Speaker 2:

Well, my feet were white and black, and my toe was, like, actually, like, kind of caved in. There was a divot underneath of my toe from where the sand had rubbed it away. That's right. It was beautiful. I actually have a video of it.

Speaker 2:

My aunt thinks it's hilarious. She showed it to her nails technician many times, but there's a video of me and you see my face, and you can tell my face, like, I don't even feel anything when I first took the shoe off because I had turned off my feeling to my feet.

Speaker 1:

What is your self talk like through that race?

Speaker 2:

So I made the decision when I committed to doing 70 miles or 75 miles that I was going to do it. It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of how. I became very robotic in a lot of ways. You start out by thinking of all the lovely reasons that you're doing this. Like, I'm doing this for my mom.

Speaker 2:

I'm doing this for my brothers. I'm doing this for my patients. And then you kinda get to a point where all of that stuff falls away, and there's, like, really nothing that could keep you going, you think. And my self talk, at one point, the previous racist when I didn't have as much of my life figured out was I deserve to die. Like, I don't know why I'm even doing this.

Speaker 2:

This is pointless. This is so stupid. But then there's kind of, like, this point that you get to where you run out of your own energy, and it's not even about self talk at that point. It's about all of a sudden, you are out of your own way, and I call it boundless energy. All of a sudden, when you think that you cannot take another step and you keep taking another step and you keep taking another step, there's, like, this other energy that comes in.

Speaker 2:

You could run as long as you needed to, forever. I truly believe that I could just keep running forever at that point.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting. I just happened to be listening to David Goggin's book right now, Can't Hurt Me, and he has a scene where he's running a 100 mile race for the first time off the couch. Although, I will say David off the couch is relative. Relative. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I say there's also someone who ran my first marathon having never run more than 2 miles at one time before. So I've got some sense of this, but I talked about, you know, he's he gets into the race for his seals, his brothers who had perished in the recent most, I guess, most high casualty seal event in history.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

But when he's at his hardest place of, like, wanting to give up and, you know, he's got stress fractures and he's bleeding from all his toes and all of this, he's had something that really surprised me, which is, like, yeah, the the other people, the other reasons weren't enough.

Speaker 2:

Nope.

Speaker 1:

And it was really when he was able to be like, this is for me Yep. That he got that second win that you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

And I

Speaker 1:

thought that was interesting.

Speaker 2:

I can echo that experience every time I've done it. Like, there is this thing that happens where it's almost like it is for you, but it's it's not. It's just about, like, the energy that somehow fuels us all. And I don't even know that I would say I allow it to happen, but it's sort of like this shift where all of a sudden I'm out of all of my energy. There's nothing else left.

Speaker 2:

And there's this universal connected energy, and you feel like if you're running, like, and I run by someone, I'm like, I'm on your energy right now too. Like, I'm on the energy of that plant over there. I'm on the energy of my great grandmother. Like, it's not you, but it is you at the same time, and it's almost like this energy is just using your body as a vehicle to keep going. And I've never experienced that through any other form of drug or maybe a little bit breath work, but

Speaker 1:

In the sense of unification of all things, but not in the sense of suffering through running. It's a very

Speaker 2:

physically different experience. Stops then. Interesting. There's no suffering at that point. You don't really feel Does it

Speaker 1:

return ever once you get to that place? Stop. Once you stop. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that is quite the bitch lap.

Speaker 1:

Are you aware of any humans who have done races to that level of extremity who don't hit that threshold? Like, their training is high enough or their just natural ability is high enough that they don't have to get to that point?

Speaker 2:

I think it's a desirable feeling, actually. I I I actually would say that most people who are able to do races of that degree on a regular basis get there. Yeah. And they get there intentionally.

Speaker 1:

Right. That's part of the reason that they do it. Yeah. My question is, is it kind of guaranteed assuming you keep going?

Speaker 2:

I think it's guaranteed provided that you get out of your own way. Like, if you choose to continue to suffer and you choose to let that be how you're gonna get through that race, fine. Yeah. It's a choice. But if you choose to allow this other energy in, it happens, and it is one of the best feelings on the planet.

Speaker 1:

So we are doing a race together a couple months from now called the Grand Traverse, much less extreme, I would say than what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

So

Speaker 1:

we'll find out

Speaker 2:

Pretty extreme. We don't know.

Speaker 1:

Do you, like when you go into that, so this is a 40 mile distance. It's a ski mountaineering race, which means that you are powering yourself up the mountain with skis on your feet, but the heels come off and you've got something that are called skins, which allow you to have basically traction in one direction and glide in the other direction so that you can walk up the mountain. And then when you're at the top, you can take the skins off, and you can ski down the other side. So it's different than a running race in a lot of ways, and it's shorter. But do you anticipate hitting that type of thing in that type of race, or do you have no idea?

Speaker 2:

Well, I have no idea. I would hope not. And the reason why is, like, there is quite a bit of suffering that occurs prior to getting there. And for me, normally, around the 60 well, I should say I shouldn't say it. Normally, it's around mile 40 that that starts to kick in, that feeling of like, oh, maybe there's some more other energy there, but I don't know if we'll get it.

Speaker 2:

Got it. I hope not.

Speaker 1:

I asked because I have done well, I guess my longest distances are 5048, and I don't believe that I've gotten to that place. Yeah. But I definitely have crossed the line of each of those and thought I can't walk another step. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so I don't I don't imagine it's that far in the future.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. Well, and the other aspect of these races is it like, running and, like, one foot in front of the other is very challenging, but I think it is gonna take a lot longer to get there as where these races, like, you're hurling your body into walls and getting in and out of ice filled vats. There's a lot more, like, actual breaking down that happens, I think. As where, like, I think it probably went I would say mile 60 is probably when you would get that.

Speaker 2:

So I think you're pretty darn close.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right. You talk about doing something you believe you can't do every year. Imagine this is an example of that.

Speaker 1:

Why? How does that translate back into the normal world?

Speaker 2:

Why do I do something I think I can't do every year?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Or do something this extreme? Like, how does this I think show up when you're doing normal ass stuff?

Speaker 2:

I think that suffering is one of the greatest gifts that you can give yourself, which sounds pretty morbid. You know, there's a lot of times in my life that I've had to suffer not by my own doing, and I can look at each of those instances and I would see the benefit that it's provided me, but when I choose to suffer under my own choice, I mean, there's a lot of evidence to this, like, choosing to suffer builds up my resilience in a way that I can't even tell you. So that way when something really challenging happens or I have a really stressful thing come up with my business, and it's like, okay. Yeah. Well, this is a really stressful, emotionally challenging potential situation, but it just becomes down to the same things and the same tools that I learned during those races where it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how can I get through this?

Speaker 2:

It's a skill. You gotta keep practicing it. You gotta keep making sure that you're doing everything you can. And I believe that the the more that you suffer, the more that you're able to endure others things in life that are challenging without even batting an eye.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And in my experience, it's not just about enduring. Because when I hear enduring, I hear sort of persisting through, but, like, taking on all of that negativity. Whereas for me, it's as I get through things, whether they're artificially constructed in the form of a race or a physical pursuit or they are organically constructed, It's about the shift in recognition that, oh, this sucks. It's not enjoyable.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. But actually I, at some level, I'm excited by this because I know I'm gonna come up better. Yep. This is the metaphorical dumbbell, and I'm gonna get stronger.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And the other thing is, like, the things that I've learned from doing these quote unquote crazy races is that when I think I'm done, I'm not done. So when I believe that I have I cannot possibly put my foot another like, in front of the other, I believe I cannot possibly go and do that obstacle one more time, And then you go and do it. It's like, oh my god. Like, I can do anything.

Speaker 2:

But then the fact that I know now that there's this other energy that somehow is fueling me that I can tap into.

Speaker 1:

Can you stop believing the limiting voice? Yeah. Because you know it's been wrong before.

Speaker 2:

I know it's been wrong before, and, also, I know my power and my own potential as a human being is there, but then there's this other fuel source, that boundless energy that is there to catch me if I can't.

Speaker 1:

So I'm thinking about this now from the perspective of, say, a legislator. And I I know we're taking, like, a little bit of a left turn here, but there is a piece of legislation that you just really believe needs to get passed. You believe it's super important. It's going to save or help lives. And everyone's telling you it's just not possible.

Speaker 1:

It's not feasible in this moment. You don't have the votes. Someone's going to fund your opponent. You're not going to be in office anymore. You're just, just don't do this.

Speaker 1:

And I wonder about the discernment of when to continue and when to not. And so using the race analogy, like you have these two voices and you've demonstrated you can push through and out the other side and be okay, But I'm sure there's examples of people pushing through and it being really the wrong decision. How do you think about the discernment of mediating the conversation between those voices?

Speaker 2:

But that's why you do it. Right? Like, so that's why I continue to push and say, like, I'm gonna try to do things under situations that are my choice, where I'm gonna try to push and see if I can do something or not. Because then there is this learning of what that sharp edge feels like in an environment that's relatively controlled. Obviously, like, there might come a point where I might pass out or whatever, but, like, I learn what it feels like to have that discomfort and keep coming up against things that feel challenging.

Speaker 2:

So that way when it happens in life, like, there are things, like, actually, I've like, for example, 2 years ago, I pulled out of a race. It was the only time I've ever done it. And the reason I did it was because I'm very acutely aware of what it takes going into a race of that magnitude, what it's going to leave me with after, and I knew the situation in my life right then. I had, you know, just lost a huge contract with my job. I had a ton of huge work things coming up.

Speaker 2:

I had a lot of family stuff going on at that time, and I was able to discern because of my experience with past races that that wasn't the right time. Yeah. Right? So the risk reward, the things like that. So, you know, obviously, I'm not experienced with passing legislature, but you sort of have this experience of knowing what it's like in that weird area of I don't know.

Speaker 2:

And you're either okay with it being in the I don't know, and you just wanna keep pushing it. You know, there is this whole thing, like, the power of 1 more. Or you also gain access to this other, like, almost, like, gut intuition, so to speak, of when something might really not be right. Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

And what I'm hearing in this is stepping out of the framework of right and wrong, of should or should not or would, and into a framework that is really more of like a scientific method of experimentation. We're not doing things randomly. We're not throwing stuff at the wall, but we are creating a hypothesis based on the best available knowledge in our experience. And we're willing to test something, to try something that's different and uncomfortable. But no matter what the outcome of that experiment, it's all positive because it's all informing us for what to do the next time.

Speaker 1:

So whether you prove or disprove the theory is irrelevant. What you've done is you've set yourself up for more likelihood of success moving forward irregardless, and you can give yourself permission to do either and to move forward regardless of the outcome. Exactly. Exactly. And that is the thing.

Speaker 2:

It's about informing your gut and also informing your mind, and that comes through practicing when the situation is a little bit more controlled. So exactly right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So good. So we've talked about diet. We've talked about exercise. We've talked about pushing your limits.

Speaker 1:

These are, in my mind, key constituent components of a life well lived, and I would argue required constituent parts for optimal leadership. But there are also the realities that we run into in the world, and there's the other key component that no leader can be without, which is human relationship. So I'd love to dive into those last things, and I think let's start with the human relationship piece, because this is the part that can be messiest, hardest to predict, and most challenging. Generally speaking, when I'm working with public servants, the things that they are most frustrated by are how they're feeling because of criticism that they're receiving or the inability to connect with a fellow colleague or friction with a coworker or all the things that kind of come downstream of that. And I know that you have, I think, maybe the most intentional and just cool frameworks for how to determine what humans to spend time with and in what fashion.

Speaker 1:

This is really a human audit. Yes. And I wondered if you could describe what the human audit is and how it works.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, the human audit is essentially just as it sounds. It's looking at the people in your life and, really, in a structured way, breaking down how that person impacts you whether meaning, like, does this person add energy to my life? Are they battery? Are they charging me up?

Speaker 2:

Or are they an energy vampire? Are they sucking the energy from me? Or are they just sort of, like, there? Right? And I adopted this because I used to be wanting to please everyone and keep all these people in my life.

Speaker 2:

And what I noticed was I really felt that I had no connection with anyone, and I was just drained all of the time. And so I call it the friend audit just because that's what it's in my brain as because that's what I started it as. And what I do is throughout the year, after interaction with someone, if I notice that I feel particularly positive, I will make a note of it. If I notice that I feel a little drained after spending some time with someone, I will make a note of that as well.

Speaker 1:

Are you doing this for every human you come across or only when there's an outsized reaction that you notice, and then everything else just goes into the neutral bucket?

Speaker 2:

If there's people that I interact with on a regular basis, they're gonna have it's gonna come up.

Speaker 1:

You're on the file. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You're on the file.

Speaker 1:

Jigger overcharging.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Exactly. And the reason why is I've I have so many people that I tend to in my life, and my energy is so so precious that if I'm going to truly do what it is that I say that I'm gonna do, which is actually positively impact the entire world, I need all my energy. Right? So it's not necessarily like, oh, I meet someone and they go into a file.

Speaker 2:

It's that if there's people that come into my life more often than not, like, on a routine basis, they're going to naturally come into this.

Speaker 1:

Yes. You have to be a regular character to make the log. Exactly. And then where are you actually capturing that in such a way that you can go back and review it at a future date and have all of that in one place that is accessible and comprehensible?

Speaker 2:

Yes. So I have a a notebook. That's what I use. I have the notebook. I usually go through about a book a year, and it just goes in there.

Speaker 2:

Other people, like my clients and whatnot, they actually do it, and, like, I'm sure you probably would do it in a spreadsheet.

Speaker 1:

I was just gonna ask, is there a spreadsheet in the journal? Like, do I have a positive and a negative check on different days over time that are dated, or how does that work?

Speaker 2:

So for me, it's more of this is something that I wanna take minimal impact on my life as I'm going. I just want it to be a quick note. So it actually goes in one particular part of the page so that when I flip through, I can actually see where they are. And then at the end of the year, which is for me, December, it's my birthday. So I do it around my birthday every year.

Speaker 2:

I go and then they go into more of a formal spreadsheet. Now other people might choose to do this differently. It's just how it works for me.

Speaker 1:

So you do do annual data entry so that you have a log to go back to.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Exactly. And I just sort of take note of the people that are in my life who is adding energy and who is taking away energy, and then there's the neutral category. And I sort of look at the certain situations that have happened so that I can remember them. I'll make a little note of what the situation was if I can be aware of what it was that drained me about it.

Speaker 2:

But sometimes

Speaker 1:

It's just a feeling.

Speaker 2:

It's just a feeling. Yeah. Which seems crazy that you would, like, just have a negative feeling. You're like, I just, like, didn't like how that person made me feel. So one, it provides an opportunity for me to look at myself, like, okay, well, is that something that was within my responsibility?

Speaker 2:

Like, what was that circumstance? What was that situation? So it's an area of personal development there because sometimes it's something for me to look at within myself, but other times it's potentially the person. And so after looking at all these names at the end of the year, I will point to a few where I'm like, wow, this person really has taken a lot of energy from me this year and probably not had the best of impact as far as how I'm able to serve the world. So I what I will do is then if they're in the negative category, I have a role.

Speaker 2:

If it's safe to do so, I will have a conversation with them about the fact that I've been feeling sort of like they're draining me.

Speaker 1:

I wanna break down what you do with each one, but I just wanna ask one more question about the tracking piece first, which is, like, umbrellas don't cause rain.

Speaker 2:

Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:

But you could make that mistake

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1:

In the data. And so, generally speaking, I would imagine when you meet someone, it's pretty clear that you're having this interaction. But it's also possible that you happen to spend 3 times with somebody, and it just so happened that right before all three of those, something else was going on and you could misattribute the energy level. So how do you control for that if you do?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. So in the notes, if I notice the negative feeling, right, like, I'll usually put a note, there'll be a date. But prior to having that conversation I'm talking about or immediately putting them in the negative bucket, there is some aspect of, like, recounting those experiences and really looking for any external variables outside of just that person. Right? And that's where I said the, you know, there's some personal ownership that comes there too because it's an opportunity for me to look at where did that negative emotion stem from because it ultimately all negative emotion is just your interpretation.

Speaker 2:

Right? So it gives me an opportunity to really look at the situation comprehensively prior to getting to the point. It's more than just to sit down and being like, oh, these are my negative people. It's a full self evaluation of where is this negativity coming from. Is it in fact that relationship, or is my interpretation at play?

Speaker 1:

So there's a internal guidepost where you're determining if someone is a frequent enough participant in life to be mentioned in this. And then once they've crossed that threshold, after spending time with them, you're opening a physical journal. You're making a mark, positive or negative, if you've had an outsized experience, and you are taking personal inventory and ownership in that moment to ask the question of, could this just be me? Yes. And you're noting that.

Speaker 1:

And then on your or around your birthday, which is your annual review cycle

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Also mine, by the way. I'm very curious about if other people do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 1:

You are looking for trends, and then you're bucketing these folks into positive, negative, or neutral. Not that they're positive or negative, but they're adding or subtracting or neutral to your energy in your experience. Okay. So now what do we do with each bucket? Let's go positive, neutral, negative.

Speaker 2:

So the positive, I almost work the opposite because, by working through the negative first, you free up more space for the positive. Got it. Right?

Speaker 1:

Love it.

Speaker 2:

So first, I look at the negative bucket, and I sort of bash them into, can I have a conversation with this person about this safely? Meaning, it's not going to create a situation that's unsafe for me, which there has been those in the past. And I go through and provide that there's someone that I have often in my life. Like, if it's somebody I see twice a year, this isn't happening. These are people that I see at least once a month.

Speaker 2:

Right? Or I have to interact with multiple times a month. And then I will set up a time to actually sit down with them and have this conversation.

Speaker 1:

Wait. I'm that person right now.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

Have you reached out and asked me to have coffee? Have you called me into the principal's office? What's the message that I get to invite me?

Speaker 2:

Hey. Do you have some time that we could sit down face to face and have a chat? K. I normally leave it at just at that. I don't really tell them because they're all

Speaker 1:

build up a Yes. Okay. So now we sit down, and I'm here. Yes. And I'm I'm we just got a coffee, and I'm ready to receive your message.

Speaker 1:

Please tell me.

Speaker 2:

So, Skippy, you know, this past year, I've noticed that I've really perceived a lot of the interactions that we had is pretty draining for me. And I know that we do spend a lot of time together, and I just wanna know, 1st and foremost, if there's something that I'm doing that might be creating that or if this is something you've picked up on as well, or really where are we with that? So I try to basically not say that it's their fault because it still may not be their fault. Yeah. It might be something that I'm doing.

Speaker 2:

But I ask if there's something that I can do to change that. I try to put as much of the responsibility on me as I can just so the person has an opportunity to explain themselves.

Speaker 1:

You're raising an observation, which can't be argued with. You're taking ownership of your part and you're leading with curiosity. Yep.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes, depending on the individual, they'll come back with, this year has been the hardest year of my life. I'm really not in a good way. There's a situation with my husband, my partner, my kids. And so, it provides an opportunity for them explain to me what's been going on in the event that it is something. I've had also people just throw up their hands and walk away immediately even with coming at it from a pretty soft framework, but and I just listen.

Speaker 2:

I just hear what they have to say. If what they say is something where I feel feel like I need to maybe continue the relationship, I will set very clear boundaries on how we are going to continue the relationship so that I don't continue to have the energy drain from me. If it's just absolutely no, then I will say, look, like, you know, I have all love for you in the world, but, unfortunately, I just don't know that I can continue this friendship right now. If in the future you feel like things might have changed, you're welcome to reach out to me if if that's something that I feel I'm open to, and then I just leave it. And I I will say I've actually had friend breakups or, relationship breakups where I had them come back around and now they're still in my life and they're very close.

Speaker 2:

I've also had ones where they've told me that things were going on and our relationship actually became stronger immediately thereafter.

Speaker 1:

And, ultimately, I would think, at least for me, I want to spend my time engaging with and befriending people

Speaker 2:

who

Speaker 1:

are willing to do their work and face their challenges. And so that's sort of business oriented thing, but a potential partner, we were working on a pilot. They just totally dropped off the radar. And when they came back, they fully disclosed what was going on for them personally and why. They took ownership of their failure in that.

Speaker 1:

They recognized that I may not wanna work with them again. They talked about their process of getting realigned and how they've determined what they wanted to move forward with and to cure the issue before. And if I was open to it, would I still be open to working together? And I'm like, yeah, way more now than I was then. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because now I know how you handle stuff. Yep. Man, I think the no can lead to a much stronger yes.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

And it's a great evaluation of of how that person's showing up. And increasingly, I have found and my my process around this is not nearly as regimented as yours. I'm a little jealous. But I wanna spend my time with people who I really wanna be more like. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And I don't wanna be more like people who run from their problems or their challenges No. Who don't take personal responsibility. So, yeah, it's really good. There will be a future year where I take on this process. It's not the year because I'm jam packed, but I will I will be doing this in the future.

Speaker 1:

So what do you do for the neutrals?

Speaker 2:

It sort of depends. If I go through and I notice that there's anyone that I need to have maybe a conversation with sort of evaluate why they're not like, if it's a really big person in my life, like, if it were to be a significant other, they better be adding value. So if there's a hope for me to have more of a relationship with than a neutral with someone, I might have a conversation. But in general, I just sort of do this thing where I stop putting energy into the relationship, which respond. Negative, but it's actually very positive.

Speaker 2:

I just see what happens. Many of them, the relationships just sort of fade away. Mhmm. And all of a sudden, I have all this time to go find more batteries.

Speaker 1:

K. So what do we do with the positives of the batteries?

Speaker 2:

They get more of my time. And in fact, sometimes, I actually make it a point to sit down and say, look. I do this thing, and every single time I spend time with you, I just feel so energized and so motivated. I really value our friendship. Like, I would like to figure out a way to have more of that.

Speaker 2:

And so for some people, like, I'll schedule dates or I'll run a race with them or I'll do whatever it is. It's just there's figuring out ways to actually build it in so that I have I don't get swept away with just adding more work to my life or having more neutrals. So there is some intentional cultivation of a relationship there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And so for someone who's listening who might think, well, this sounds fucking mean, what would you say to them about how this has impacted your life and your ability to serve and you Sure. In in the way that you do?

Speaker 2:

Sure. It's completely changed my life, actually. Like, the amount of energy that I have is directly related to how many times I've gone through this process. I have the most incredible friends on the planet. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

People that show up at all hours of the day. I've had I have my girlfriends that showed up literally at, like, 4 AM in the morning at a 24 hour race with little turmeric shots and sparkles on their face just because they love me. Those are the people that I want in my life, and I want all of those people. So if it seems mean, what's mean is to not provide the opportunity to the people who are in the negative bucket to know that they are not creating a better life for those around them, or what's mean is for me not to provide an opportunity to help them. That is mean.

Speaker 2:

And, honestly, it might provide an opportunity for me to become better because I might be the one at fault. So by not doing that, or I should say in doing this, I have actually opened up my eyes to some of my own shortcomings and my own negative interpretation of information as opposed to actually neutrally interpreting it. To me, it's allowed an opportunity for me to look at myself more honestly as well as have more energy to do all the things that I wanna do in my life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Glitter tumor shots.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. They're really great humans.

Speaker 1:

And I would imagine I'll just speak for myself. There's a huge part of me that wants to show up with glitter and tumor shots for people that relishes being able to be at above and beyond friend to be super connected. But with many people, I live in a place of ambiguity of, like, how connected are we really? How much is too much? Because we don't get intentional with these conversations.

Speaker 1:

We're not sure. And so by having a self directed process, even if it's not explicitly conveyed to someone else, energetically, you're creating a lot more clarity for someone that if they wanna be a glitter and humor chop person, this is the relationship for that. Yep. Yep. And that's the that's the gift.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It really is.

Speaker 2:

It also in doing that, it provides me the opportunity to have the bandwidth to do that for someone else, which before, because I was so busy trying to tend to all these people, I really didn't create the opportunity to deepen those relationships and have the time to show up for people when I really wanted to.

Speaker 1:

I'm also glad we finally figured out what the Porsche GTS stands for. It's a glitter turmeric shot edition. And that's really important because I thought this is Gran Turismo Sport.

Speaker 2:

Yep. It's a very sporty Glitter turmeric shot.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:

Figured it out.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh. I'm so happy happy for Portia for bringing this

Speaker 2:

to us

Speaker 1:

for so long. Thank you. Mhmm. Considering sponsoring

Speaker 2:

the podcast. That's a great idea. So my last question about this is, how does this

Speaker 1:

apply to work? Oh, yeah. Well, it applies to work in all the ways. I have a business partner who actually was on the

Speaker 2:

negative list a little while ago, 2 or 3 years ago. And, actually, in my relationship with my business partner is phenomenal. It's funny. We started out as friends. He became my business partner.

Speaker 2:

And then our relationship became kinda weird because, you know, we were friends and then all of a sudden, he's asking me to do all this stuff. And it just was like, he's actually really annoying and actually not following through on a lot of the areas that he should be following in on. All this stuff I had made up in my head that he should be doing that he wasn't doing, some of which was valid, some which was not. So I had the conversation with him look like, it's just really hard for me to be around you. In that, we actually decided that we were going to pause our friendship and we were going to become just business partners.

Speaker 2:

I was able to voice some things that I was noticing that he was doing that felt out of alignment with the things that he said that he was in the world, and vice versa with me. He has dove in on his personal development, on his mental health, and he is a completely different Mhmm. An amazing person now. I thoroughly enjoy being around him. Everyone who knows him is saying the same thing of him, and that all I don't not that it that personal development of his, I'm sure, had other things to it as well, but that all stemmed from this conversation.

Speaker 1:

It's just such a great lesson too if we go back to little Ashley who thought that she was getting in people's way. It was a bother. It would be so easy for her to be like, oh, I can't give negative feedback. Yes. I'm gonna hurt this person.

Speaker 1:

And yet that direct feedback, won't call it negative, the direct feedback actually was

Speaker 2:

super helpful Exactly. To this person. Exactly. Yeah. And, honestly, it was super helpful for me too because it provided him an opportunity to show where I needed to do things differently.

Speaker 2:

And what a gift that is. Like, often in life, we're so afraid of confrontation, which I used to be that person Mhmm. That we miss out on this just by being lovingly direct. I'm not saying this to people because I'm judging them. Yes.

Speaker 2:

I'm saying this to people because of I've truly, all I'm coming to the conversation with is I feel low energy, less energy than I had before after I leave you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. We, in our work, move from the framework of confrontation, which is about winning, to carefrontation Yeah. Which is I am going to, because I care so much, confront you in such a way that we can all be better.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

And I ask

Speaker 2:

questions. Don't just assume that you know the outcome of the conversation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You have no idea what's gonna come up.

Speaker 1:

So that's a great outcome, and there could have been a not a great outcome where the person didn't respond well. And you are in a privileged position, I would say. You tell me if you agree. But as an entrepreneur where if it didn't go that way, you could change course. You could rid that person from the equation for you.

Speaker 1:

There will be a lot of people listening who don't get to choose

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Their colleagues either because they're not at that level or because the citizens elect them. So what do you do if you are irrevocably bound to someone who's a negative energy?

Speaker 2:

Boundaries. Yeah. Boundaries and, bumpers.

Speaker 1:

Boundaries and bumpers. Rubber baby buggy boundaries.

Speaker 2:

Sure. But, basically, if I know that a person is a great white shark, right, what do great white sharks do?

Speaker 1:

I think, in this analogy, they're supposed to eat people? Yes. Okay.

Speaker 2:

For the purposes of this story, great white sharks, they're designed to hunt. They're going to go out and eat things. Right? So when they attack a human in the water, should we really be all that surprised?

Speaker 1:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

Right? So if we ask these questions of people, like, one, we set very clear expectations of how we expect them to act, and then we use that data in the interpretation of how they're acting, we really can't have negative emotion about the person doing the stuff that we know that they're going to do anyway. So if you kind of put that bumper on the person, like, you kind of know how they're going to respond, how they're going to react, because, unfortunately, maybe they're not responding to the conversations that you've had or they're continuing to work on themselves. You sort of just know how they're going to act, and then that's how you set your expectations and that's how you begin to work around them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So last pivot here, and there's, once again, just endless things that we're not gonna get to, but our time is limited, and I'm so grateful to have you with us.

Speaker 1:

I would say the number one symptom reported by public officials that they would like to have less of is stress.

Speaker 2:

Oh, no way.

Speaker 1:

And I understand that you have a system for relieving stress. And so I'd love for you to, as kind of clearly and concisely, you can walk someone through the how to guide of this system, but to begin with defining what stress even is so that people have some context for what they are feeling.

Speaker 2:

Stress is your interpretation of a series of data points. So it's nothing more, it's nothing less. It's truly just your interpretation based on your upbringing, your culture, the sets of ideas that you have in your mind about how you should react to certain data points given based on your whole life. Right?

Speaker 1:

Do you mean this in the sense of how people will describe, sensationally, in the body, the feeling of excitement versus anxiety as almost identical, but it's the story we put around the situation we're in that makes it one of those things in our head. Is that what you mean by that?

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Like, you can't take a picture of stress. Yeah. It's not. It's not a thing.

Speaker 2:

It's not stress is not a real thing. Stress is an emotion that we create based on our interpretation.

Speaker 1:

K.

Speaker 2:

Right? Which is hard to realize. And oftentimes, for example, like, I'm so stressed because I have so much to do. I believe that I'm so stressed because I have so much to do because that's what you see on TV. That's what you see on social media.

Speaker 2:

That's what my dad told me when he was growing up and couldn't take care of us because he was so busy with work.

Speaker 1:

Do you have a definition of stress for yourself knowing that we all have our own stories? I have one for me, so I'm curious.

Speaker 2:

I don't know that I do.

Speaker 1:

I'll just put it out there. So for me, stress is the felt experience of breaking commitments with self or others. Mhmm. And that presents as feeling flushed, hot, rushed, angsty, short, frustrated, generally uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

But for me, it always comes down to that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost as if stress is a sensation. Right? But, again, it's still not while it is a word, it's not real.

Speaker 1:

If that's a construction in my head from my lived experience, I would expect it to be different for someone else. But what I've noticed through practice and observation is like 2 things that I used to think were the same thing, stress and anxiety, were not. What I was able to do for me is build systems in my life. And the intent was not let's vaporize stress. It was just like, let me up level my processing, my workflow.

Speaker 1:

Once I had systems in place that I wasn't forgetting about things, that I wasn't late for things, that I was meeting all my expectations, all of a sudden I noticed I had no stress, but I still had anxiety. And I was like, woah, these are different.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

And now it's just become so clear to me that when I am feeling stressed, it's always, I mean, this week's a great example. Like 3 big things blow up at the same time. They are required in my mind to take precedence over the existing needs. Now I'm feeling like I'm behind on those other things. I'm letting people down.

Speaker 1:

I feel stress. As soon as I pick up the phone and get a hold of the people and say, hey, I am gonna be behind. I'm taking ownership of why. I'm renegotiating my agreement. Like, literally at the end of that conversation, stress is gone.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Yep. It's easy and not at the same time. Easy and not. It's easy and not.

Speaker 2:

So if stress is just the result of our interpretation, then what we really need to do is focus on how do we interpret information without all of this negative emotion that we assign to things. Right? So the process that I use is I just take these very arbitrary things and things that are creating stress and bring them into true tangible actionable steps. And I do that through a series of questions. The first and foremost thing is you have to ask, like, what am I even stressed, anxious, upset, worried, sad, fearful about?

Speaker 2:

Right? So let's run through, like, an example. What are you stressed about?

Speaker 1:

Well, Ashley, so much to say. Let me put myself back into a previous version of myself. Hold on. That's our time machine on Got it. Our politics Okay.

Speaker 2:

Got it.

Speaker 1:

I'm back. I am 6 months into elected office. We just got hit with COVID. I am working probably 80 to a 100 hours a week from a little tiny studio apartment. I am not socially interacting with anyone.

Speaker 1:

I'm feeling stir crazy as all hell, not getting the exercise that I want. I'm not sleeping well, doing the level best I can to inform the public of what's going on, be responsive to people's needs, and yet all I'm hearing is that we're fucking it up. We're killing people. We're destroying people's businesses. There's no right that I feel like I can do in this moment.

Speaker 1:

Like everything that I do is wrong. My other job is a vacation rental job and we haven't been able to rent in 2 months. I don't know if it's going on. My boss is talking about having my salary right now. I wouldn't even be able to make my rent if he does that.

Speaker 1:

And I am and this part is actually a little bit of an exaggeration for the point of this exercise, but I just feel like I'm gonna explode.

Speaker 2:

So there's a lot there. So you are stressed right now, and, essentially, what we would need to do is actually go through every single one of those aspects and ask questions about each of those. Right? That's a pretty common feeling though where there's multiple areas that you're stressed about. So first and foremost, we need to create the space to do that.

Speaker 2:

Right? So in your schedule, you might literally have stress time. So you've blocked that time out because you're gonna have to probably do this a couple times to go through all the stuff you just listed off. But first things first, let's narrow it down to we've gotta pick one of those things.

Speaker 1:

So I'm just gonna pull an example, non personal example out of my past, but I'm imagining that I am actually, I'm a comm dev director, community development director

Speaker 2:

Got it.

Speaker 1:

At a municipality, but insert your role here. I've been super stressed out recently because I just feel like I have way more on my plate than I could possibly get to. Every time I start to make progress on some priority, council adopts something new, and now the mountain has gotten taller. And I just don't know what to do with this, and I feel like I am falling short for my community. And now I'm questioning if I'm even right or good for this job, and I go home, and I'm just I'm short with my kids.

Speaker 1:

I'm short with my partner, and I don't wanna feel like this anymore.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So we'll start by explaining or understanding that stress is simply your interpretation of data points. Right? And so there's a point to this, so follow me here. You're basically interpreting the fact that you have a ton to do at work.

Speaker 2:

You have a seemingly insurmountable amount of tasks that you have to get done in the day. And as a result, based on either your upbringing or what you see on TV or social media, that your response should be to be stressed. Right? So I think it's important to first understand that that is your interpretation of the situation. Like, stress is an emotion that comes from your interpretation.

Speaker 1:

Right. There could be, in a hypothetical world, another person that inhabits the same role that I do Mhmm. Who's just not bothered at all by this. Who's like, I'm just gonna take it at the pace it comes and I'm good hunky dory. There's something in my operating system that says I need to do this or I'm not good enough or I'm gonna get fired or no one's gonna like me.

Speaker 1:

There's some underlying

Speaker 2:

There you go.

Speaker 1:

Pathology that's driving my framing of this issue.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So it's important to first understand that. So in order to then neutralize that emotion, we have to look more in and really ask a lot of questions to bring that those facts into reality. Basically, you're gonna treat the situation as like a detective might. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

So you're going to take the emotion out, and we're going to ask, okay. So why do you feel stressed?

Speaker 1:

I feel stressed because I am getting asked to do more than I can do, and I feel like I'm doing a bad job.

Speaker 2:

Is the expectation of those people that you're working with that you will accomplish all of those things right now?

Speaker 1:

That's my story. I think. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, essentially, what we would do and will continue to do is ask a series of questions that bring it the situation into reality. Right? Meaning, keep asking and asking. So in this situation, we would then ask, like, okay.

Speaker 2:

So, realistically, how much can you accomplish of what you're supposed to accomplish, and when do you have to accomplish that by?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Let's say there are 7 projects on my plate, and I think I could meaningfully execute well 3 at any given time.

Speaker 2:

K. Is there a discussion that you could have with someone else to set more realistic expectations about what you can and cannot accomplish?

Speaker 1:

My fear is that I will get fired if I bring that forward. But, yes, I could, strictly speaking, I could go to our city manager who could potentially have a conversation at the council table or an executive session. So, yes, it is it is possible to have the conversation, but I have a lot of fear around that.

Speaker 2:

So is that a realistic fear or an unrealistic fear? And where does that fear come from?

Speaker 1:

I think 2 things can be true at the same time. I had a, in this hypothetical, a parent who conditioned their approval based on my performance. Mhmm. Maybe it's coming from that unconscious programming.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

But, also, I have watched 2 peer level director heads get fired in the last 2 years. And I can't say a 100%. I'm not familiar with the contents of their case, but part of me believes it's because they did not meet those prescribed expectations.

Speaker 2:

So then if the expectations are prescribed based on the other individual's expectations of your job and your ability to perform, is there a conversation that could occur to help to reassess or reassign those expectations of you so that that person might understand your job better?

Speaker 1:

Yes. There's a conversation that could be had that would be scary with my city manager within the framing of, I would like to better understand your expectations and my place in the organization so I can be as effective as possible, and I feel like I'm unclear about my direction and expectations where I could ask those questions.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. So then the more that you, like, reach into this and sort of, like, pull apart where the stress is coming from, the good thing is that you can start to continue to ask questions, like, who else can you connect with that can support you in this? What other tools or assets do you have at your disposal to help you accomplish these things? And chances are the more that you start to ask those questions, the more things that will reveal themselves. So, therefore, instead of just feeling stress and overwhelm, you then have action steps to take.

Speaker 2:

And action negates stress because there's actually a place for that energy to go. And the more that you start to recognize that the stress is not coming from the event itself, the stress is coming from your interpretation of it, then as you start to interpret it and you can see where there's action steps in all of it, it just kind of goes away. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that first thing is identifying where it's coming from, getting to the source.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

The second thing is clarifying if my experience is grounded in reality.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Is this Or if it's grounded in a past experience, a different something that you saw on TV, your upbringing, or something like that.

Speaker 1:

So now that I understand where this feeling is coming from and how it's being trigger for me, then I'm looking into the reality of what I'm doing and evaluating my spend of time in this case against not the story of my reality, but the reality of itself. And if it is then in discontinuity, then I'm asking what I can do to clean that up. Exactly. So how can I reprioritize, first and foremost?

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

How can I delegate Yep? Where necessary? And for the things that remain, how can I sequence them in the means that delivers what is needed based on that prioritization, and then schedule so that I know it's gonna get it done and I can get that thought loop out of my head, which is also part of what's driving things?

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Is that

Speaker 1:

is that fair?

Speaker 2:

That's very fair. Yes. And so the thing of it is what you just described can really be applied to anything, but the key aspects are that you're, 1, identifying where that emotion is coming from. Right? You're identifying where the story came from so that you can sort of set that aside, and then you start to get into the facts and the reality of where you have control.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm. And then you put it into action. And that putting it into action piece and actually putting it into your schedule so it won't be forgotten and it's actually already in motion, it's sort of like you put it into your schedule, then there's really nothing more for you to do at this time. Like, it's already in motion. It's already done.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you're good to go. Now there's areas of life where stressors unfortunately, such as a family member being sick or you yourself might be sick with something like a cancer. And you get to the end of that line and it's like, well, what can I do? And you have a choice, you can focus on the fact that you or this family member might die and that might be where you put your energy or you can focus on, okay, well, what is my best thought to move me forward? And if you continue to put thought on the negative thing that this person might die or, oh my gosh, I'm so stressed because I have this thing, it's only going to put more and more energy into that as where if you focus on the fact that, well, yeah, I might be sick, they might be sick, but I'm gonna focus on the quality time that I have with that person, and I'm going to do all that I can to enrich my health now, to be as present as I possibly can with this person, and this really applies to everything.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna do everything I can to make myself the best that I possibly can be. That is the best thought to move you forward.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And the stress in this example is not something that is perpetual, ongoing, guaranteed, permanent. The stress is the body's wake up alarm. The stress is there to jolt you into action. And in this case, the action is taking dominion over your own choices, understanding what's going on and then creating new systems from that deeper level of internal understanding.

Speaker 1:

And then it goes away. It resolves the check engine light was on, and you did your service, and then it goes away. And it doesn't mean

Speaker 2:

you stopped doing your job. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So use that thing.

Speaker 2:

Use it.

Speaker 1:

Use that light.

Speaker 2:

And, you know, stress is a stimulus. Like, it's it's one of the things that causes us to grow. I mean, unfortunately, like, stress, it can be a very good thing.

Speaker 1:

Sure.

Speaker 2:

It's a matter of choosing to use it and pay attention to it versus just ignoring it and having it be this thing that drains you behind

Speaker 1:

the scenes. Famously like pine cones. Right? Only seed in forest fires. They require the stress to seed.

Speaker 1:

And there are elements, whether you're in a 75 mile

Speaker 2:

race

Speaker 1:

Yep. Or you're in the office, there are certain things that are beneficial that can only happen under those conditions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. And that's what's so going back to what we've been talking about this whole time, it's truly choosing to take something and allow it to break you down or allow it to make you stronger, and that all comes down to choice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So this is a great segue to the final question. Same question that everybody gets on the show, but that is our audience are not passive observers. They are the humans in the arena. So if you could leave them with just one thing, whether it is a quote, a practice, a piece of advice, an observation, just one thing that would best resource them to be a vector for healing our politics, what would you leave them with?

Speaker 2:

I mean, it would be, I guess, at this point, what's coming to my mind is to treasure the hardship. Yeah. You know? Look at all of the stress, quote, unquote, and the negativity and the obstacles and the pain and be grateful for it, lean into it, and learn from it, and transmute that shit. You know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Ashley, where can people find you if they wanted to work with you, follow you on social?

Speaker 2:

On top of a mountain. No kidding. I would say, you can find me on social media, ashlee.marie

Speaker 1:

Spell that.

Speaker 2:

Shlee.marie. And then my website is grimoldbiometrics.com and or the fresh program. I have 2 websites now, so I'm there. My email's on the website. It's probably the easiest way to find that there.

Speaker 2:

And, yeah, I'm here to support and help in any way that I can.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. Thank you so much for all of your time, for your friendship, and for being a big and growing battery charger for me

Speaker 2:

these days. Yes. Thank you for being the same for all of us. We need you, Skippy.

Speaker 1:

Alright. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you wanna put what you've heard here today into practice, sign up for our newsletter, the leader's handbook, where each month you'll receive just one email with a curated selection of the most useful tools and practices discussed on this podcast today and over the course of the last month, delivered in simple how to worksheets, videos, and audio guides, so you and your teams can try and test these out in your own life and see what best serves you. And lastly, if you wanna be a vector for healing our politics, if you wanna do your part, take out your phone right now and share this podcast with 5 colleagues you care about. Send a simple text, drop a line, and leave the ball in their court because the truth is the more those around you do their work, the better it will show up in your life, in your community, and in your world.

Speaker 1:

Have a beautiful day.