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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:16:22
Unknown
And they've never talked. They've never talked about this before. And when you're carrying all of that weight and you're having a baby yourself for the first time, and some of our parents are still children themselves as well. A really high proportion of our of our parents are young parents as well. They're carrying so much in terms of their history, their journey, their identity.
00:00:16:23 - 00:00:40:03
Unknown
So it begins with the individual in front of you. You tell me what happened to you. Let's work through your story and what that means to you, and what that means in terms of your behaviors and your relationship. Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Baby Zone about what happens in the earliest years of a child's life and why those years matter more than almost anything else.
00:00:40:05 - 00:01:04:22
Unknown
I'm George Lucas, CEO of Babies Owen. My guest today leads an organization working in one of the most difficult but most important spaces in the early years, the intersection of domestic abuse and the first 101 days of a baby's life. The For Babies Sake Trust works with families where there has been domestic abuse, starting in pregnancy and running through to a baby's second birthday.
00:01:04:23 - 00:01:36:04
Unknown
What makes it different from most responses to the rest of abuse is that it works with both parents, not just the victim. It's a trauma informed therapeutic program that asks, what does this baby need? And what do both of the people responsible for them need to change for that baby to be safe and to thrive? For Babies sake has been independently evaluated by King's College London, who found it to be the first known program of its kind.
00:01:36:06 - 00:01:57:10
Unknown
Lauren has worked with children and families for over 20 years, previously as CEO of kids, and before that, the national coordinator for the Anti-Bullying Alliance. And she's been chief executive of the For Babies Sake Trust since 2023. Lauren, welcome to Best Beginnings. Thank you so much for finding time to talk to us today. Thank you. Great to be here.
00:01:57:11 - 00:02:24:06
Unknown
So I guess we start at what your organization does and the impact it has for any listener that perhaps hasn't come across for babies sake before. Take us inside the program. What does support look like from that first conversation through to that baby's second birthday? So the For Babies Sake Trust was set up because there was a recognition that babies and children were really significant risk of intergenerational harm.
00:02:24:06 - 00:02:45:02
Unknown
And we kept seeing the high profile deaths of these very young babies and children. And so our founder wanted to really understand what was happening for these babies and so brought together lots of different thinkers, collaborative collaborators, academics from different circles to really think about what was happening within those families. And the thing that kept coming up time and time again was domestic abuse.
00:02:45:03 - 00:03:07:00
Unknown
And so out of that came the For Babies Sake program that's now ten years old. And as you said, it takes a very different approach. So it's looking at babies right at the center. What do babies really need who are at this risk of general abuse? And out of that, we developed a whole family trauma informed response that works from pregnancy up until the baby's second birthday.
00:03:07:01 - 00:03:33:06
Unknown
What we found was that pregnancy is a crucial moment for intervention, a crucial moment for that baby's long term outcomes. Thanks to neuroscience, we understand a lot more about how the first 1001 day is affects us for life, but also a critical moment of intervention for all members of that family. For the person experiencing abuse, you want to intervene as soon as you can to prevent the harms of that abuse affecting that person, their baby and their children.
00:03:33:06 - 00:03:52:11
Unknown
But for the person using abusive behaviors, we know it's also a moment, a window of opportunity to think about what they also want to change, what they want to be for their baby. And time and time again, our parents, predominantly our fathers, but not always who are using abusive behaviors, have said, I want a different outcome for my baby.
00:03:52:11 - 00:04:17:00
Unknown
I want my baby to have a different childhood than I have, and it's a motivator to make those changes. So our parents choose to come on our program and they choose to come on it because they want real, lasting, meaningful change for their baby, their children and their family. That's amazing. So what you've outlined in the approach that you've taken, and we all know that prevention is better than cure, and early intervention can have an outsized impact.
00:04:17:00 - 00:04:45:14
Unknown
And that's why your program is quite so powerful. What does it mean to a family that wants to work with you before it's in crisis, before a baby has arrived, before harm has really fully shown itself, I guess. What does it take for those parents for that sort of service to be unlocked? Yeah, I mean, it's really brave, actually, to say that we're committed to bringing a change and to really doing the work because this isn't easy.
00:04:45:14 - 00:05:03:06
Unknown
This is this is really hard. And I think sometimes we think that domestic abuse is something that happens to someone else over there, someone else down the road. But research tells us that 1 in 5 children will be growing up in a home with domestic abuse. That's a significant number of our children. So we know that domestic abuse is prolific within homes.
00:05:03:06 - 00:05:30:19
Unknown
So what we would say is to anyone listening, if you're experiencing it or you have friends or family who are affected, you're not alone that there's an awful lot of people who are in this situation. And so for our families, predominantly, they recognize by social care, they're being referred into us at the point of pregnancy, by social care teams, by safeguarding midwives, because either that domestic abuse has come to the attention of social workers, or they've shared those experiences of domestic abuse and what's happening for them.
00:05:30:20 - 00:05:57:20
Unknown
And so they're taking that really important step to being able to bring the change that's needed for them and for their baby. 1 in 5 statistic is just jaw dropping, really, in terms of you think of going to a playground or going into a shared space like a baby zone, and you go, how many families here that we work with on a weekly basis must be enduring that sort of environment back at home, I guess.
00:05:57:22 - 00:06:22:15
Unknown
Why does it take for babies sake to exist in order for this to be part of the conversation? What has sort of talked about your origin story and the great work you've done over the last ten years? But why is this not being at the center of the early years conversation? Going back for as long as the science has been clear around the importance of security during pregnancy, I think there's a lot of stigma and shame around domestic abuse.
00:06:22:15 - 00:06:39:08
Unknown
I think that's the first thing. It's something that people find very difficult to talk about. I think there's also a lot of siloed practice as well. So that domestic abuse has talked about in some context, but very rarely talked about in the context of early years and in the context of babies. We're here as a voice for babies.
00:06:39:08 - 00:07:11:19
Unknown
Babies don't have a voice of their own. They can't advocate for themselves. And I think, again, you know, it's been so important with work like Baby Zone, for babies sake, trust the growing number of charities and organizations and individuals who are really passionate about babies and outcomes for babies. That's been hugely supportive to our work, because I think we are seeing and recognizing babies in a way we never have before and understanding much, much better that actually if we don't intervene in pregnancy in the first 1001 days, we're setting ourselves up for a lifetime of problems and challenges within society.
00:07:11:19 - 00:07:31:08
Unknown
And so I think that's been that real step change. Also, the Domestic Abuse Act 21 recognize children as victims of domestic abuse in their own right, and that includes babies. And so now babies have that additional legal protection around the right to be recognized as Covid of domestic abuse and everything that that means for those babies and their outcomes.
00:07:31:13 - 00:08:13:15
Unknown
I was reading through some of the research you've been doing and the reports that you published, which, you know, have great data and a really interesting numbers, that should be a kind of clarion call for anyone in the policy fields, but also anyone that's interested in the early years. But also alongside the data is there's some of the very vivid stories that are around sort of police call outs with babies and sort of how that very specific uncomfortable image, I guess, around a baby being in a room and when a police call out occurs, I guess, you know, how do you blend the data that you're looking at and also the scenarios that you're aware
00:08:13:15 - 00:08:31:24
Unknown
of to sort of put that case together in terms of intervention, what does the data tell you? What do the kind of human stories tell you and how do you bring those together? Yeah, it's a really good question. We always very much evidence impact driven. And so it was about really thinking about what was going to work to break those intergenerational cycles of abuse.
00:08:31:24 - 00:08:52:12
Unknown
And out of that came, you know, this whole family trauma informed approach to working. So yes, there's individual stories, absolutely critical because every family situation is different. We've had a big focus, haven't we within society, on the role of kinship care, on the role of family group conferencing, on different approaches to thinking about what's in the best interests of babies and children.
00:08:52:12 - 00:09:14:23
Unknown
But I think what we haven't seen enough of is around taking a trauma informed approach is around understanding individual families, histories, identities, stories. What happened to you? That's at the core of our work. Many of our dads say nobody's ever asked me that. It's the first time they've ever told their story. Almost 25% of our parents a care experienced.
00:09:14:24 - 00:09:31:21
Unknown
They've experienced significant levels of adverse childhood experiences. And they've never talked. They've never talked about this before. And when you're carrying all of that weight and you're having a baby yourself for the first time, and some of our parents are still children themselves as well. A really high proportion of our of our parents or young parents as well.
00:09:31:21 - 00:09:47:24
Unknown
They're carrying so much in terms of their history, their journey, their identity. So it begins with the individual and front of you. You tell me what happened to you. Let's work through your story and what that means to you, and what that means in terms of your behaviors and your relationships. It's absolutely critical. So I think that's one thing.
00:09:47:24 - 00:10:04:14
Unknown
And I think sometimes those individual stories are lost in the data. We hear the big pictures, don't we? We hear, yes. You know, the significant number of police call outs where there's people present, you know, babies present. We hear the the referrals to children's social care for domestic abuse. But what we don't hear are the stories behind it.
00:10:04:14 - 00:10:27:10
Unknown
And as a charity, we take an ecological approach to domestic abuse as well. So what that means is, yes, it's a gendered issue. Yes, it predominantly impacts women. But what else has happening within society, within communities that create cultures of violence and abuse that are repeated across generations? And there is an intersection with with poverty. There's an intersection with substance misuse.
00:10:27:10 - 00:10:49:05
Unknown
There's an intersection with mental health. There's an intersection with poor housing, crowded housing with with infant neglect. What's happening for that family, what's happening around that family that's causing such high levels of tension? And what does intervention really look like for for that family. And so you've got to get the combination of the two. Yes. Learn from what data is telling us.
00:10:49:05 - 00:11:18:08
Unknown
But listen to those individual stories and really understand what it is that family needs for change. That was very interesting about what you were saying. The, the, the both parents having their stories being heard. And so the first time a dad may have been asked that question, and I guess for some of the people listening today, they may not have come across a domestic abuse program that works with both parents instead of, you know, you're working with both parents and engaging actively.
00:11:18:09 - 00:11:42:06
Unknown
What does that look like in practice in terms of how you bring those those families together or working separately when when necessary? Yeah. Well, really importantly, because I think there can be misconceptions about our program. Sometimes people might think it means, for babies sakes, are keeping the family together for the sake of the baby. Absolutely not. This is about really what does it take to safely where you can safely co-parent?
00:11:42:07 - 00:11:59:21
Unknown
What does it take to do that? And what does it take to break those cycles of domestic abuse? So their parents are parents, go on their own individual journey with us. We don't do couples work. We work separately and safely with each parent. So each parent has their own therapeutic practitioner, and they go on that long term journey with that parent.
00:11:59:21 - 00:12:20:10
Unknown
Up until the baby's second birthday, our therapeutic practitioners talk to one another. So the benefit is we have that 360 degree look around the family, around what's happening for that family, what's happening in terms of risk. Working closely with fathers protects babies and children. There's a really important report called The Myth of Invisible Men, and it's around the danger.
00:12:20:10 - 00:12:43:07
Unknown
If you don't see dads, if you don't include dads, that's very dangerous for baby. So by working with dads, we understand what the risks are. We understand what's happening with dad, what things are bubbling up, what's causing tension, what might that mean for the baby? So it's going on that journey with each parent so that they can really work through what's been happening for them and what needs to change, but also supporting that attunement with their baby as well.
00:12:43:07 - 00:13:02:23
Unknown
That's what's so precious about the work. It is putting the baby at the center, so helping each parent really understand what their baby needs and what their baby wants. And actually, for every one of us as a parent, you know, I've got 12 and 14 year old now. I didn't understand those things. I didn't understand about how, you know, even within pregnancy, a baby's affected by your stress levels.
00:13:02:24 - 00:13:27:20
Unknown
I mean, you know, we're learning more now, aren't we? Like your cortisol levels. And so being able to explain that to dads, being able to explain what's happening within your relationship is impacting your baby. And you have a choice here. What is it you really want for your baby is a really important thing. And we also use video interactive guidance within our work, which will be familiar to some people within within the baby's own audience, which is where we filmed parents interacting with their baby.
00:13:27:20 - 00:13:48:16
Unknown
And we play those moments back to parents, and it's supporting parents. Many of our parents had very difficult childhood success. They don't know how to parent. They don't know how to recognize that their baby loves them. So some of our parents or scientists don't know my baby loves me or even likes me. So being able to play about those moments where they can see where they're connecting with their baby is extremely powerful.
00:13:48:16 - 00:14:13:15
Unknown
And we do that from pregnancy all the way through. So supporting parents to really understand their babies cues, to see what an impact they are having on their baby can bring really profound change. And we've seen that time and time again. Wow. Yeah, it's very vivid. And it gives you say something that every parent has been through, that journey of understanding their impact on on their child and obviously in the most challenging of circumstances, how that's heightened even further.
00:14:13:16 - 00:14:38:06
Unknown
You spoke earlier about trauma informed practice. And so the work that you've done in terms of making sure that you really have the evidence that you're working through the scenarios with the families, what does that mean for your practitioners? What does it require for your team to be able to hold professionally, but also on an emotional level, on a personal level, to do this work really well?
00:14:38:07 - 00:14:54:12
Unknown
Yeah, I think anybody that works in the domestic abuse sector or early years sector or works with children and families know that this work can really take its toll. That is much as we really want to hear people's stories and be there for them. For many of us as practitioners and professionals working with families, we have our own stories.
00:14:54:12 - 00:15:10:01
Unknown
I think often people are drawn to this work and are drawn to working with other people and working with babies and families because they have their own story to tell. And so it's so important to be really aware of that and to take really good care of yourself. So we are a trauma informed organization. A lot of people say that, don't they?
00:15:10:01 - 00:15:32:14
Unknown
But don't really reflect on what that means. We've recently just achieved silver accreditation with one small thing, and went through a very detailed process to really think about what does it mean to entirely be a trauma informed organization. So that's about how we support one another as a team, how we interact with other people outside of the organization, how we support those working on the frontline and how we work with our families.
00:15:32:14 - 00:15:51:24
Unknown
And so much like with baby zones, how do we what does it really mean to create safe spaces for babies and families? And in everything that we do in all of our interactions, we're on a journey, right? We're not always going to get it right, but it's that constant learning, reflection, doing a lot more work around co-production with parents as well, you know, how did it feel for you?
00:15:52:00 - 00:16:08:04
Unknown
What could we have done differently? What could really support going forward? And being able to get that feedback from mums and dads is incredibly powerful, so being trauma informed, it's a long term process to really think about that and get that right. And it's not just about that person over there that has trauma. It's about actually all of us.
00:16:08:04 - 00:16:40:16
Unknown
Many of us have experienced trauma in different ways throughout our lifetimes, and if we haven't, we might go on to experience trauma or our children or grandchildren will. So it's about really understanding that and understanding the support we all need to feel safe. So powerful. And yeah, just remarkable the work that you and the team is doing. And yeah, looking at the evaluations that have come out for babies, for babies sake, and obviously there's the King's College evaluation that I mentioned, sort of the first known program of its kind in terms of the intervention you're making.
00:16:40:16 - 00:16:59:03
Unknown
And then ten years on, there's always more that has to be done, new strategies with sort of bold goals in terms of where you want to go. And I think it's on the record. You want every family to be able to access to support that, break these cycles of domestic abuse. What will it take for you to get there?
00:16:59:04 - 00:17:21:01
Unknown
What does success look like in terms of that extension of your reach, an extension of support to more families? Yeah, I mean, that's something that we've been thinking a lot about. We've just published our Babies of Mind three year strategy, looking ahead to that big ten year goal around every family being able to access support to give their babies the best start in life and to be able to get that support around domestic abuse.
00:17:21:01 - 00:17:41:08
Unknown
And it's going to take a lot. It's going to take collaboration, it's going to take partnership work. This isn't just about us working alone, thinking that we can solve this. This is a major, wicked issue for our country. Violence against women and girls is prolific. Domestic abuse, as we've touched on, is prolific. This isn't something that can be solved alone by the For Baby State trust, right?
00:17:41:10 - 00:18:02:02
Unknown
This is a collaborative effort. And so a lot of our work is around what does it take to bring that long term system change. Who do we need to work with? How do we work together? And so yes, growing awareness of the impact of domestic abuse in pregnancy in in early years is absolutely critical. There's still not enough people that know that, you know, 30% begins in pregnancy, that this is a really massive issue for babies.
00:18:02:02 - 00:18:20:10
Unknown
A lot of people don't realize that it's about upskilling the children's workforce. Again, we would love, for babies sake to be available in every area that will come across. This is long term, whole family therapeutic work, and yes, we need to be investing in that, but we also need to be supporting our frontline workers to be able to recognize and respond to domestic abuse.
00:18:20:10 - 00:18:38:24
Unknown
So we need to be training our midwives, our health visitors, our social workers, our teachers to really understand what it means to take a trauma informed approach to domestic abuse. And that includes recognizing the impact on babies and children. And then we need to be working within local systems that they are taking those whole family long term approaches again and again and again.
00:18:39:00 - 00:19:00:23
Unknown
We get reports from Child Safeguarding Review Panel, whoever it might be around, investigating the deaths of babies, harm to babies and what comes out of that in terms of recommendation is whole family work, long term work, therapeutic work, relational work. We can keep saying it, but if we don't invest in it, it's not going to happen. So of course we're calling for that level of investment.
00:19:00:23 - 00:19:21:15
Unknown
But this is about all of us working together to break the shame and stigma around talking about domestic abuse and joining forces around what does that really mean for babies? And I guess you sort of touched on it at the beginning. You've moved from the anti-bullying work through to domestic abuse, and both obviously involve harm and close relationships.
00:19:21:15 - 00:19:47:22
Unknown
They involve children that can't name what's happening to them either, I guess. What do you see is the connective tissue between these sort of parts of your career and those chapters, and I guess what's taught you the most about both things over the course of the last decade or so? Yeah. I think what really drew me to For Babies Sake Trust is I'd worked a lot with teenagers over the years, and I love teenagers, and I love working with young people.
00:19:47:24 - 00:20:13:10
Unknown
But I think that opportunity to intervene even earlier. And so really understanding that lifetime of experience and how that affects us downstream and how it affects us intergenerational, is what really drew me to the opportunity to be able to be involved right from pregnancy. Everything's interconnected. That's the other thing I would say that actually, you know, when we see children who are using harmful behaviors within school very much, that's a continuation around what's going on at home.
00:20:13:11 - 00:20:31:00
Unknown
I think one of the things that's concerning me at the moment is there's rightly as strong focus around misogyny and a focus around educating boys. But what I haven't seen in parallel with that is an understanding of the number of those boys who are living with domestic abuse at home, 1 in 5 by the time they're 18. We're not talking about that.
00:20:31:01 - 00:20:50:10
Unknown
We're not talking about what else boys are experiencing and the impact that that's having. So I think that's been the learning over the years is how we are all interconnected. These issues are interconnected. Our communities are absolutely vital. How safe are our communities, you know, how much are we relating to one another? How much do we love and care for one another within our communities?
00:20:50:10 - 00:21:11:03
Unknown
This is absolutely key. That's why I love Baby Zone, because it creating those safe spaces where people come together from all backgrounds and identities can have those really meaningful contacts with one another and with professionals is absolutely critical for babies and children. And so, yeah, for me over the years, that's the learning that actually you can't separate out these issues from one another.
00:21:11:04 - 00:21:32:09
Unknown
They all come together so important. So, so true. I was also going to ask you about it does seem to have come into the kind of popular psyche at the moment. We obviously had Louis Theroux and the manosphere and sort of adulthood sort of has become a reference point, I guess, in conversations in offices and outside school. Gates.
00:21:32:14 - 00:22:03:11
Unknown
Is that helpful for you to see these sorts of challenges with, with new, young generation of men that are growing up and that being discussed and spoken about? Or is there another message that you would like to be part of the national conversation instead? I am worried that some of it is a reflection of a very polarized society on every level, and the polarization also, and very binary approaches to things, polarization, binary approaches towards men and women.
00:22:03:13 - 00:22:23:20
Unknown
I think what's missing from that dialog, that's not to not to challenge levels of misogyny. Absolutely. But for me, what's missing is a more detailed look at the intersection of root causes for men and for women, for boys and for girls, what's really happening for our children, and what are really the experiences of our children, and what influences are they having?
00:22:23:20 - 00:22:39:11
Unknown
And so we do need to talk about, you know, things like the sphere and how they're impacting boys. But I think sometimes there's been too much of a focus on social media's thought. That's what's doing. It's everything. They're looking at social media, not looking at what boys are experiencing in the home, what do their relationships look and feel like?
00:22:39:13 - 00:23:00:04
Unknown
And I think we're really missing something. There was this amazing big study that came out of Australia recently, which has a really substantial issue around violence against women and girls and around domestic abuse. And it was looking at what really interesting it was looking more around what were the protective factors that made men less likely to use violence against women and girls?
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:21:20
Unknown
And one of the top protective factors was were men who had a close, loving bonds with their fathers, were significantly less likely to use violence within their relationships. Now, that is all part of gender equity, because if you're supporting dads to bond with their babies, to be able to have the time to show love and care to their children, it decreases levels of violence.
00:23:22:00 - 00:23:40:19
Unknown
But that's something that we don't talk about very often. And so I think it's around really looking at what the evidence is telling us and taking a much more nuanced view around what affects human behavior and what is it that we all need. And it comes back to love, care, connection, time to build really healthy relationships. And I'd like to see more of that.
00:23:40:19 - 00:24:02:07
Unknown
Talked about breaking the cycle of what, you know, hasn't been there in the in the past, but we can now start to foster some of that connection and care and love, as you said. And I guess a lot of what you do is really hard talking about stories of serious harm with children, how do you carry all of the work that you do?
00:24:02:08 - 00:24:21:21
Unknown
And we spoke about you as an organization being trauma informed, but obviously as a leader within that organization, how has it impacted you? How do you cope with some of the challenges that you're confronted with and the stories that you hear on a daily basis? Yeah, I think we all have to really think about what is it that we need, isn't it?
00:24:21:21 - 00:24:43:05
Unknown
And what do we need as leaders? And you'll know this, George. Sometimes being in leadership can be quite a lonely place as well. And what I would say, though, is that the charity sector is incredible. From my experience, is incredibly supportive of one another. And so it's about being able to have relationships with other CEOs, to be able to have safe spaces where you can come together and talk about the things that you're finding really challenging and really difficult.
00:24:43:06 - 00:24:59:24
Unknown
It comes back to safe spaces, it comes back to good relationships. It comes back to connection. And being able to find that is so important for kind of feeding your soul and for being able to really reflect on what you're finding difficult, because we all need that. We all need those safe spaces to be able to reflect and think about what else we need.
00:25:00:01 - 00:25:24:22
Unknown
It's really important. Absolutely. And I guess a lot of what we've touched on here is challenge and difficulties that were confronted by and families have to endure. What gives you hope? What is there that actually you're seeing progress? And some of that report that you just cited in Australia perhaps. But is there anything that gives you hope for the future or evidence that you're seeing these cycles being disrupted and changed for the better?
00:25:25:03 - 00:25:47:14
Unknown
I think it comes back. You know, we're talking about individual stories, and I think working within the sector, you meet so many incredible people, whether that's the parents that we work with, you know, or those professionals in all different roles who just care so deeply for babies, children and families. And I think when you can feel that and when you can see that, that's what gives you hope.
00:25:47:14 - 00:26:08:10
Unknown
In the newspapers, we hear all sorts of things, don't we? And in the press and in the media, and a lot of it's really depressing. It's really divisive. It's really polarized, it's really angry. But when if you visit a baby zone, right, you're in a different world, aren't you? Really? You're in a world where we all understand that we want to be given the best for our babies, that we possibly can, and we want to be able to support one another and have those connections with one another.
00:26:08:10 - 00:26:25:16
Unknown
And that's what gives me hope. And or I think of an example recently with one of our workers where we'd gone through a difficult episode with one of our families and, and my colleague was was in a family hub, I think, in one of the offices. And we were just catching up and debriefing. And then he was sharing the space with the social worker, and he's like, oh, can I just bring the social worker on as well?
00:26:25:17 - 00:26:52:18
Unknown
And together they were talking about how they'd been through this really challenging situation with the family. And it was really beautiful that there's a voluntary sector organization working with social workers. Social workers often people act as if they don't care. They desperately care. And they're they're talking about this family with so much love and care. And that's what gives you hope that actually there are so many very decent, caring, compassionate human beings out there from all walks of life that want community, that want to support one another, that wants to support babies, children and families.
00:26:52:18 - 00:27:30:19
Unknown
And that's what gives me hope. I guess we also spoke about your research and some of the evidence base that you're building, and also other research that's being conducted by external organizations. Is there anything out there at the moment that you just wish everyone had read, or was really, or a piece of data that you've got, or part of your reporting that you're publishing, that you go, this is going to transform the way that people think about the space or something that, you know, for someone external to the work that you you're doing would really help them get to understand why it's so important, the work that your team does.
00:27:30:20 - 00:27:57:19
Unknown
Yeah. Well, what big question. There's so many things. Read The Myth of Invisible Men. That's a really important report for understanding the dangers of not working with fathers, and why it's so important to work with dads. I always talk about that one. I think the recent report that came out from doctor Jade level from University of Bristol, looking at those boys that had been involved in serious gang violence and the deaths of other children, looking at the stories of those boys comes back to stories really, really high.
00:27:57:19 - 00:28:20:02
Unknown
Number of those boys had been living with domestic abuse at home, and it's a good example of understanding that intersection of issues. So I know a really important example of people understanding gang violence and knife crime within that domestic abuse lens. And that impacts around what's happening at home, impacting what's happening on the street and in community. That's a really important bit of research that I'd really urge people to look at.
00:28:20:03 - 00:28:37:10
Unknown
That's two things that kind of immediately come to mind. We've got some research coming out soon as well. We have put a freedom of Information request out to local health trusts around disclosures of domestic abuse to midwives as well, and so to people to keep an eye out for that when it comes out. There's a lot of data that's missing.
00:28:37:10 - 00:28:54:14
Unknown
That's the other thing that I would say. That's why we put freedom of information requests out to police forces, why we put them out to local authorities around the referrals where there were babies and domestic abuse. This is why we're going out to health trusts. So some of this is about what we don't know enough of at the moment as well and be able to fill those, those gaps.
00:28:54:14 - 00:29:15:04
Unknown
So wanting to understand how many disclosures are being made to midwives, what does that look like in terms of practice and what needs to change and get better? And that's such a good point. You know, it's easy to operate in the world that you know and understand. It's really what don't we know? What aren't we hearing whose voice is aren't being heard right now?
00:29:15:06 - 00:29:40:06
Unknown
It's really important to try and reach out to wider communities, different pockets of the UK that perhaps we don't have as established relationships with. I guess the other question, Lauren, is something that surprised you when you first started your role, first started working within this space that no longer surprises you or has become something that you're just familiar with and kind of resilient to.
00:29:40:07 - 00:30:08:06
Unknown
Is there anything that has changed for you from a personal standpoint, professional standpoint, over your time with For babies sake? I think if I'm being honest, the thing that I have found probably most challenging is having worked around children for a very long time and children and families for a long time. Coming into the domestic abuse space, I have found some of the polarization quite difficult, some of the binary thinking quite difficult, the lack of intersection quite difficult.
00:30:08:07 - 00:30:31:13
Unknown
I think that has surprised me to a degree that when you're looking at the impact of domestic abuse on on babies and children, it can feel quite divided with when you're talking about women's rights. So the challenge of importantly looking at women's rights and the disproportionate impact of violence on women alongside children's rights and babies rights, and what we really need to keep baby and children safe.
00:30:31:14 - 00:30:57:15
Unknown
There is a tension there, and I think that's the thing that's probably surprised me the most, that sometimes that space can really feel quite difficult. It's it's it's paradox. It's how can you hold two things at once? Feels quite challenging for us in lots of ways at the moment as a society. And so how can yes, you have a focus on on the rights of women and also think about the rights of babies and children and also think about what needs to change for for boys and for men.
00:30:57:16 - 00:31:29:00
Unknown
I think that's felt quite difficult. It's felt quite difficult for me. Some of the dialog around when does a boy become a man, become a perpetrator, and the use of the word perpetrator I have found quite challenging within the domestic abuse space because within the children, family, youth violence space, we're moving away from some of that language that dehumanizes around being able to really understand safer language, a language that supports that kind of broader understanding of identity that someone holds and what it takes to support change.
00:31:29:01 - 00:31:51:17
Unknown
And labeling very rarely supports a journey of change. And so I think those are some of the things that I continue to find quite challenging and trying to work out how to take a position within that and, and be able to see both sides and learn from that and be humble with that. But really think about how can we bring some of these different worlds together to really have the best outcomes for babies and children?
00:31:51:18 - 00:32:30:20
Unknown
Because that's ultimately what one of our missions are, is to help those babies children thrive and sort of succeed. And none of this should be contentious. There shouldn't really be sort of scope for disagreement and misalignment on everything that you've spoken about today. Yet it does feel like, I guess, ministers, policymakers have to prioritize things, they have to rank their objectives, and sometimes things slip through the cracks, or there isn't a singular person that's responsible for being held account for moving the needle on domestic abuse and and all the other things, topics that we've touched on.
00:32:30:22 - 00:32:54:15
Unknown
I guess if you were able to sit down in Westminster or really have the ears of Prime Minister or someone that was able to make a fundamental change as to how the space functions, what would you be saying? What would you be doing to support families in a way that you'd be describing? I think sometimes there's a kind of view that this is what the public want.
00:32:54:16 - 00:33:26:22
Unknown
Like they want us to use this very sort of punitive sort of criminal justice focus around all of these issues to talk about stamping out perpetrators, to talk about this. But but actually, when you talk to families and we talk about our work, there's such a positive reception to our work. And when you talk about the need to work with those causing harm, to work much more with fathers around, root causes around, tell us your story around supporting those change mechanisms and creating spaces for change.
00:33:26:23 - 00:34:07:09
Unknown
There's a real reception to that because everyone has their own stories, everyone has their own relationships and difficulties within their families as well, don't they? And within their family histories. And so I think my strongest message would be, would be, think about the language that you're using and what it's doing, and is that creating a safer, more accountable society, or is it creating a society with more fear, more violence, more abuse, more separation, more polarization, rather than bringing people together and really thinking about what it what it really takes to reduce levels of finance and abuse, I think that's that's what I would be my challenge, that what does that punitive approach actually achieve?
00:34:07:11 - 00:34:28:14
Unknown
Is is it reducing harm? Is it it's quite questionable. And and actually within the broader kind of prison estate, within broader approaches to criminal justice, we are looking more restorative approaches. What does it really take to bring long term change. And so that would be my challenge would be around some of their use of language. What's actually achieving some of that language itself is quite violent.
00:34:28:15 - 00:34:55:18
Unknown
And that's a bit of a contradiction. I would say. Yeah, you get it. The whole time in newspapers and the media, they use this very vivid imagery and kind of, yeah, I agree with you. We all should be acutely aware of how we're using language and talking to parents, talking to families, getting on their level. It's really important for organizations like ours and Baby Zone, but also across, as you say, the media and political speech as well.
00:34:55:20 - 00:35:17:17
Unknown
And so we've been speaking about all of the work that you're doing and the growth that you're trying to achieve over the next three years, ten years in terms of the reach of the baby's sake and also global expansion and thinking about new territories and work in Australia. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, we have a job to do in the UK, right?
00:35:17:19 - 00:35:36:01
Unknown
We really do in terms of making sure every family can access support for domestic abuse and and have that change for their babies. But over many years we've had contact with Australia, where there are a lot of parallels around what they're facing in Australia. In Australia, they talk about family violence rather than domestic abuse, which is interesting, isn't it?
00:35:36:01 - 00:35:57:05
Unknown
In terms of framing, they also have very strong recognition of the impact of trauma histories within Australia as well, because of their experiences and what's happened with their First Nations people in Australia. They're very acutely aware of intergenerational trauma and abuse and the impact it has. So over the years we've had a lot of contact with Australia and we've always thought, oh, you know, but we don't know.
00:35:57:07 - 00:36:26:00
Unknown
It would have to have funding that comes with it. But amazingly respect Victoria of funding CAFs, a partner organization, to do a pilot of for babies sake in Ballarat in Victoria. Ballarat has some of the highest levels of family violence in their language in Australia, where very high levels of intergenerational trauma and abuse, and so we're really excited to be able to pilot the work of For Baby Sake in Ballarat with our partners at cafs who've been running their organization for 160 years with families.
00:36:26:03 - 00:36:43:09
Unknown
So it feels like a big moment working in partnership with them. We're not going over there to we don't understand Australia, so there's going to be a lot of challenges around the cultural differences and around when you take a program like ours to another country, what can you flex? What do you need to keep in terms of integrity to the program?
00:36:43:10 - 00:37:08:00
Unknown
Might there be different outcome measures, different tools? There's lots of things to think about, but really excited to be able to share the learning and have that opportunity to pilot over there. Exactly. That sounds like a really great initiative. And as you say, opportunity, not just to work with lots of new communities and support families that need help in different parts of the world, but also, I guess, you know, not too dissimilar to the work.
00:37:08:01 - 00:37:34:24
Unknown
I'm sure across the UK you work with a really wide array of different communities already. And that's not to sort of dismiss the differences between working in Australia and the UK, but I'm guessing as an organization you have to work with, certainly we have lots of different communities in our babies own hubs being nimble enough, I guess, to be able to translate across languages and cultures is enormously important.
00:37:35:00 - 00:37:57:04
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And again, that's part of trauma informed practice is that cultural competence. And it's a constant journey always. It's a constant journey of learning and co-production and sharing and really thinking about what works. We're fortunate to work with a really diverse range of families like you do at Baby Zone, for babies sake trust. And we're always learning from our families where we can get better and what we need to do differently.
00:37:57:08 - 00:38:18:16
Unknown
But it is possible to work with families from all communities. It really is. You just have to be able to really listen and learn and be able to to to flex. And also it goes for working with we work with really high numbers of neurodivergent parents as well. And similarly, it's about changing and flexing our practice to really be able to bring everybody in, which is entirely possible.
00:38:18:22 - 00:38:39:16
Unknown
All right. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real pleasure speaking to you. Thank you. What I'm taking from this conversation is that the earliest years, the earliest moments of a child's life, are not just shaped by what parents do. They are shaped by what has happened to those parents and by anyone was there to help them carry it.
00:38:39:18 - 00:39:03:03
Unknown
For babies sake is working in the space between those two things. And I don't think enough of us understand how much work there is to do. At Baby Zone, we see families each week who are holding a great deal on their shoulders, and we know what is happening at home. What a baby experience is from the very beginning has an enormous impact on the rest of their life.
00:39:03:05 - 00:39:32:23
Unknown
Lauren's work is a reminder that getting it right is not just about resources or information, it's also about safety and community. And that has to come first. If you remember one thing from today, domestic abuse is not separate from the early years story. It is embedded within it. The sooner our services, our systems and our conversations treat it that way, the safer our youngest children will be and the more likely they will flourish.
00:39:33:00 - 00:39:51:07
Unknown
Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you for listening to. Best beginnings, A Baby Zone podcast. For more evidence and form support on babies and the early years, subscribe to the channel. If you found it helpful, share it with someone who might need it. We'll see you next time.