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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Highly technical specialists can play a crucial role in organizations, but very often they don't feel they're suited to leadership or have the support of the organization to develop that leadership muscle. Our guest on this episode of We, not Me, it's Rob Smore, and he set out to change all that. Rob is the former senior manager of leadership and team development at Cisco. He built and ran a technical leadership program that engaged the organization in the transformation of many engineering leaders and delivered immediate business results.
[00:00:31] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We, not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:41] Pia: And I'm Pia Lee.
[00:00:43] Dan: and we're doing our third, no, one of our three episodes Pier Today that we recorded, I'll get it right, um, in, um, that we recorded when we were in San Francisco,
[00:00:53] Pia: This is quite a good, this is a good link. 'cause I mean, when we interviewed Sarah Beckman, and she talked about the challenge of that dynamics, uh, with students, um, and how they really focus on teaming in order to be able to get that innovation, it really led us to think about. A guy Frt, called Rob Dinsmore, who actually created a specific program for the, for the most top-notch engineers inside Cisco who were, these guys had brains the size of
[00:01:29] Pia: planets, but in order to lead the business. What was missing, which is, you know, quite a challenge to get people who have forged a career on their technical prowess to then step into a bit of humble pie to go, but I don't know that bit. And if I did a bit more of that, then that might have an impact. And then how do they then work together as a team to deliver real world projects, not just things that are made up, but real world projects that Cisco endorsed.
[00:02:01] Dan: exactly. And I, I, I'm, I was really looking forward to this discussion and it didn't, and it, it didn't disappoint because I just love that idea of it. It's sort of where leadership and management, I. Are very different. These people don't manage anyone, but they are huge leaders in the organization.
[00:02:18] Dan: This program that Rob ran, built for them and uh, and ran, actually gave them loads of skills to do that and, and as you say, delivered concrete results along the way. So let's head over and hear Rob now.
[00:02:32] Pia: I'm just listener. I'm sitting next to Dan in the house in Barclay and um, and I'm really happy because we have a long, a long lost friend of ours that we've had a long working relationship. Rob's more welcome to we, not me.
[00:02:48] Rob: Thank you very much for having me.
[00:02:49] Pia: And, um, and Rob, so as we sit round this sofa, it looks like it's really relaxed, but actually Dan is gonna ask you a tricky old question. Okay. So, which might hopefully not involve in any, any childhood trauma if we're really lucky. I love, and, and
[00:03:03] Dan: when I'm traveling I have a, a, a very long PDF that I randomly shuffle. And um, the one that I have for you, Rob, is the worst thing I did at school was. You seem like a very, you seem like you've probably have been quite well behaved. Is there a bad say?
[00:03:21] Rob: What's the worst thing say? Um, I was usually a good, a good student, but, um, this is in my fourth grade, so how, how, I can't remember how old that would be.
[00:03:29] Rob: That would be seven, eight years old, somewhere around there. It was the, I'm kind of dating myself a little bit. It was the classic v or uh, camera with the VCR VH machine in the classroom. Yeah. Here we go. This, this, this is, I've gotta say,
[00:03:43] Dan: this sounds, this is really promising already. And, and I
[00:03:46] Rob: remember, I can't remember the teacher's name, but I, I remember this, just it's vividly in my head, is, uh, she left the room and students, including myself, started getting a little.
[00:03:57] Rob: Antsy. Yeah. And started getting on top of the tables and jumping up and down on the tables, not knowing that she was recording the whole thing.
[00:04:08] Rob: And, um, and she, um, she came back a little bit later ' cause we knew she was coming back. We, I can't remember why she left. And, um, it wasn't until a couple days later that she played the video. Oh, really? Good. She had it in her back pocket for, for a couple days and, and the punishment came a couple days for something.
[00:04:27] Rob: Oh. So punishment was out. And so, um, oh, now Dan, you asked me, there's quite few other stories, but I. That was a good one. That That's a good one. Yeah, that was a
[00:04:39] Dan: good one. I like the secret recording. That's quite clever, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:04:41] Rob: Yeah. And I remember that vividly. Yep. Yep. That was a, we might
[00:04:44] Pia: switch the BHS to Exactly.
[00:04:46] Pia: Put
[00:04:46] Rob: something Yeah, that,
[00:04:48] Dan: that was where I thought it was going. It sounds like you've got a lot coming back to you now. So before we, before we hear too many. Um, but so you've taken us back to your school. They give us a little bio in the box of Robert Tin.
[00:04:59] Rob: Yeah. I, um, uh, formerly a Cisco Systems. Mm-Hmm. And so spent a good chunk of my career over the past, uh, 20 years there.
[00:05:06] Dan: Yeah. Wow.
[00:05:07] Rob: And, uh, recently left back in April and before that, um, jumped around a little bit. For companies here in Silicon Valley in the Bay Area, including Oracle and some, some, uh, startups back in the.com craziness back in the, the late nineties, early two thousands.
[00:05:22] Dan: Oh yeah.
[00:05:23] Rob: And, um, went to school, a trained instructional designer back and had my master's degree way back from Arizona State University back in the early nineties.
[00:05:30] Rob: In
[00:05:31] Dan: instructional design. Yeah. Instruction, educational, um,
[00:05:33] Rob: technology, instructional design. And what was interesting when I started my master's degree is 1994, right when the web was coming out. And, uh, it was, that was, uh, webpages, HTML and, and everything. And so a lot of my school curriculum was not even tapping into that yet 'cause it was so new.
[00:05:51] Rob: Yeah. And so there was a professor I remember who had been there. Oh. He was teaching educational technology for probably 20 years and one of the classes I took. Was, um, it was instructional technology, but using the big laser discs. Oh, whoa. Yes. And, and like tapping into those and some pro, this is like really old stuff.
[00:06:11] Rob: I mean, we are talking
[00:06:12] Dan: things that look like CDs, but Yeah. Yeah. They're the size, but the size of
[00:06:15] Rob: an LP piece. Yeah. Yeah. Frisbees. Yeah. Very big laser frisbees. Yeah. But yeah, the foundation, you know, the educational psychology, instructional design Foundation has always been there ever since. That's great.
[00:06:25] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. And you stayed pretty much in that field. Are you learning? So what different roles did that take you into? Yeah,
[00:06:32] Rob: you know, it's, um, different roles from straight instructional design. And it's interesting, one of the, um, before I moved out here in the Bay Area, I worked for a company in Scottsdale, Arizona, in the Phoenix Metro area when I was there and we were developing.
[00:06:46] Rob: High school classes on CD rom. So we went to a smaller size. Oh, okay. Very, very long. Yeah. And so, but we were using, um, macro Media director at the time Yeah, yeah. Before Flash came out. Mm-Hmm. And, um, it was tap 'cause the, the bandwidth of the internet couldn't handle this stuff with the video and, and what they were trying to do.
[00:07:03] Rob: So working with a lot of, um. It was, um, a lot of teachers and high school teachers, you know, come out with the content. Then all of a sudden we had to read, design it in such a way and make it interactive for elementary school students and stuff like that. then migrated out here to the Bay Area and, and started in the high tech world and then.
[00:07:21] Rob: yeah, for a long time at Cisco, when I first started there, it was a lot of e-learning development Mm-Hmm. And, and stuff like that. Then moved into leadership development probably, oh, 2008 or so. Yeah. What, which bit of your,
[00:07:32] Dan: that career really floated your boat in terms of your passion? What, what Nice. My, your passion.
[00:07:38] Dan: I,
[00:07:38] Rob: it was, um. Probably the leadership development. Mm-Hmm. Getting into I, I, when I was, uh, back, it was right before the financial crisis. It was bringing in IBM into as a, as a supplier, their vendor into Cisco and, and using their management. It was a. Co-development, co-design situation that, um, taken their off the shelf and customized for Cisco for frontline managers who got into a lot of facilitation and working Oh yeah.
[00:08:03] Rob: You know, partnering with IBM consultants to do that. And so just, um, I've always been a teacher at heart. Yes. In a sense. Yeah. And, um, even though I was never a school teacher, but it was for so long doing stuff. You know, for media. Yeah. But then I never saw the end user using it other than user testing and stuff like that.
[00:08:21] Rob: But to actually get in the classroom or the virtual in front of Yeah. People. Yeah.
[00:08:26] Dan: that's great. That's good to know. And
[00:08:27] Pia: our, our paths crossed. Um, well probably sort of 15 years ago. It was 15 years ago when, um, we were approached and at that point Dan and I were working, um, inside LIW as leadership development consultants, and we were asked to design a program for technical leaders.
[00:08:48] Pia: Not necessarily people leaders, but to have influence inside an organization of engineers. Mm-Hmm. And an organization like Cisco. And we piloted a program in Asia Pacific and then, then we, our paths led to you now, now you're gonna go to the big Yeah. In honchos in the US and, um, and see if you can work with them to develop the program.
[00:09:12] Rob: Yeah.
[00:09:12] Pia: And that's how our, our paths crossed all those years ago now. Tell us about these leaders, these technical leaders, who, some of them hold really prestigious roles.
[00:09:23] Rob: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
[00:09:24] Pia: Inside Cisco. And what was the leadership requirement at that time that, that, that you were looking to develop through the program.
[00:09:34] Rob: Yeah. A lot of it was, it was, um, and at Cisco, really the target we were targeting was the senior technical leader, individual contributor. So they weren't people managers.
[00:09:43] Dan: So it's that's a really interesting thing in Cisco, isn't it? You've got this people manager track. Yeah. And these indivi, I was all, I was stunned by that. I thought it was so smart actually. Yeah. That you, you get some super senior people, don't you Who? Who have. Yeah. Don't have any direct reports Exactly. But they're still leaders in the organization. Clearly. Huge
[00:10:00] Rob: influence. Huge. You know, just huge influence. Huge. And really the, the next step for these who wanna stay in, in individual, excuse me, individual contributor at Cisco is moving up to a principal.
[00:10:10] Rob: Right. Or distinguished engineer. Yeah. Which is like a mini CTO of the different business units. Yes. And some of those do have, direct reports underneath. Mm-Hmm. But a lot of them don't. Mm. But the program was really designed for those, those. Those highest grade level individual contributors you can do yet at Cisco.
[00:10:26] Dan: And some of these people are, many of 'em are thought leaders in the industry, aren't they? Exactly. You know, this is, this is the way to just people who are well known, right across tech. Yeah.
[00:10:37] Rob: And one of the, the biggest needs was the, um, again, very top of their game from a technical leadership perspective, but to get to that next level and the skills needed at that principal and distinguished engineer, and really it was getting them thinking, yes, they have the technical idea and solution, but how do they promote that internally? How do they get funding for those ideas
[00:10:58] Pia: What was really interesting, I mean, you, you, you would've been quite an easy to default to create a leadership program that just focused on them being individual leaders. Mm-Hmm. But what you did was really interesting and quite unique was that you created them into teams Yes.
[00:11:14] Pia: Around specific projects. Yeah. I mean, this took a lot of, lot of work. So talk us through the, the thinking around that and, and what were these project teams and how were they linked to the organizational outcomes?
[00:11:27] Rob: You know, so it comes down to adult learning theory, is we wanted them to apply, you know, the teams to apply the learning to something that they were doing.
[00:11:36] Rob: And so, um, and they were actual projects from the business, and it was in the infancy of the program. First couple years they were, you know. It might be a an SVP or director of VP level across the technical functions at Cisco, whether it be engineering services. We can talk about the whole makeup of the team, but it might be that, that one idea that they didn't have the bandwidth on their own team to, to really dig into like the technical aspects of it, or it's like what the business opportunity is, things like that.
[00:12:06] Rob: So we kind of use that as the crux of an action learning project for them to apply the, the learning that they were, uh, picking up during the program. Hmm.
[00:12:14] Pia: and it was quite a rigorous, I mean, it was a two week program, 2 1 2, I think. What, what memory? Actually we,
[00:12:19] Rob: um, you know, we started all virtual actually.
[00:12:23] Rob: Yeah, that's right. I remember that. Because v
[00:12:25] Pia: we had to go virtual vt.
[00:12:28] Rob: And the reason why is, is when we were asked to take it to a more global perspective after the HPAC pilots, right after the financial crisis? Yes. Where Cisco, at the time had put a, uh. A stop to all internal travel within the company. Yeah. And you know, we saw that during COVID as well, but, but it was like to really cut down expenses, but that was one of the programs that senior leadership in the learning development space wanted to continue going. And so I remember working with, with your team at LAWP, you know, and, um, really, okay, this is like the first time I think you guys ever.
[00:13:03] Rob: Got hit, hit LAW with a virtual program. Yeah. That's Kelvin's listening at this point. Yeah. Kelvin. When I told
[00:13:08] Pia: him that he was gonna run a whole virtualized program, and this is a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. He slid down the wall and put his head in his hands.
[00:13:15] Rob: Yep, yep. And, uh, so yeah, we developed that. It was a full virtual program and um, you know, very similar to what we turn it into, a blended a couple years later.
[00:13:25] Rob: Mm-Hmm. It, uh, yeah, it was all a virtual week long, um, workshop, which we were doing with the Frontline Manager program. So I took a lot of the best practices from there. Mm-Hmm. And, um, and then it was, we, we would, it was about a three month program actually, and about the only time we would bring everyone together in, in the workshop perspective is like the first or second or third week of the program.
[00:13:48] Rob: Okay.
[00:13:48] Pia: It was an interesting one because I remember the conversation I had with the very first pilot group who said, you know, their biggest challenges was not the delivery of the. technical outcomes. Mm-Hmm. It was getting on with other people. Yes. It was the ability to collaborate.
[00:14:02] Pia: Yeah. It was the ability to, uh, focus on design thinking together. Mm-Hmm. And actually co-create a really great solution. Yeah. And then it was the simple things of managing the project execution. Mm-hmm. And delivering against the, the timelines. Yeah. So that, that really became the impetus for, for, from, from our side in terms of.
[00:14:23] Pia: In designing the experience. And I think now having, spent all this time in Squadify, we see the same Yeah, the same elements. It's sometimes hard to coalesce a team around a common goal. Yeah. And
[00:14:37] Rob: mm-hmm.
[00:14:37] Pia: To maintain that.
[00:14:39] Rob: You know, thinking about the team, actually, lemme back up a little bit. Just the team makeup, I think it's an important point about, about, you know, how they apply the projects and so again, it was, we called it the global tech leader program.
[00:14:49] Rob: Yeah. And so it was a truly global, um, global participant base coming and we, it was a nomination based program and only we ran it three times a year. 25 people each. So it was only 75, 80 folks per year because it was very prestigious and uh, and we were getting participants from. All, you know, made the major countries Mm-Hmm.
[00:15:09] Rob: Cisco was doing business in, and so we had to really make an, a concerted effort on how to form the teams. Yeah. Not, not based on skills, but we were, we had, again, it was cross-functional across Cisco. So we had folks from engineering and services and sales engineers, and even smaller functions like IT and supply chain.
[00:15:31] Rob: And so we had to make a concerted effort about how we structured the teams. Mm-Hmm. Based on making sure there were distribution of, you know, 'cause engineering had the biggest population at Cisco. Yes. So, so we, you know, we make sure all the engineers were across the teams. Yeah. But also from a, a time zone work perspective as well.
[00:15:50] Rob: And uh, because yeah, when we started it was all virtual, but then we moved to a blended program. We'd bring everyone in San Jose for a week, but then we let them off and they had to work virtually the rest of the time. So we, uh, were very. Cognizant about making sure we didn't have a team with someone in San Jose, east coast.
[00:16:09] Rob: Yeah. The good old London sort of Bangalore because they wouldn't get anything done. Right. Yeah. and then came the projects. And so one of the things that we would do, we would go and uh, and that was one of the most difficult. Challenging part of the program to go secure these business case projects that the teams will work on.
[00:16:26] Rob: Because, we had a project sponsor and a project advisor. Project sponsor might be a SVP VP level Mm-Hmm. But then we would have a project advisor as well, who then, uh, at that principal distinguished engineer level, right. Who would, who would help advise the team as they go through. and part of that, it was always, it was, um.
[00:16:45] Rob: Reaching out inside Cisco and yeah, and using the network inside Cisco to find relevant projects in such a way that, that the teams could tackle within that time period. And, and it had a clear ask from the project sponsor as well.
[00:17:01] Dan: want to hear, we want to hear more about these projects. Yeah. Can I just jump in on this um, point?
[00:17:06] Dan: Because I think one of the things you did exceptionally well there. Which wasn't consistent in that really in those days, was to have those senior sponsors
[00:17:14] Rob: Yes.
[00:17:15] Dan: Who could go across the organization with some influence. Yes. 'cause quite often these programs become isolated because the person running them doesn't have that air cover.
[00:17:25] Dan: Yeah. And they. They don't have the stakeholder, the social capital actually to go and Exactly. I need a project from Yeah. Talk about how, how did you hire, recruit those people, keep them in? How did that work? Because that's, that's quite a distinctive event. One, one of
[00:17:39] Rob: the, um, I was just talking about this earlier today.
[00:17:42] Rob: Um, we, we had our, our, um, we'd like to call it here in the states, the, um, the ringer off the bench. Oh yeah. He wasn't the ringer, but one of our exec sponsors of, of the. Of the whole program. Yeah. His, his name's Kirk Law. He, he was one of the founders of Cisco. He's the first engineer at Cisco. I'll start the company patch number 1 0 5.
[00:18:04] Rob: Actually he was employee number four. Okay. Right. And whoa. And so, um, he, um, and for him, I got to know him over the years and, and he got up at one of our tea or the, the workshop dinners. 'cause we would take everyone to dinner in the middle of the program. Yeah. And he was. Always, this was one of his, his favorite things that he is done at Cisco.
[00:18:25] Rob: He's still there on kind of an halftime basis, but um, 'cause he was in the same position that these technical leaders were. Yeah, he had all these great ideas, but not until he learned how to speak the business part of it, to promote the business case and the market opportunity and things like that. Then people would start listening to him and funding.
[00:18:45] Rob: So Kurt, in a sense, he was, he was kind of that open opening doors left and right, uh, at the very beginnings of the program. Then the, the more years we went on just with the results that we would have, we were able to get more folks coming to the table and, um, we would have an executive panel that would hear the, the project readouts in the presentations, the end, and we had a couple.
[00:19:07] Rob: You know, rotating folks come in, 'cause someone, you know, they spent their time on it. Mm-Hmm. They got pulled off to other things. They left Cisco, but, um, and we always made sure to get, uh. Representation from like engineering, from executive panel standpoint and sponsors and services. Yeah. And sales and things like that as well.
[00:19:26] Rob: Time
[00:19:26] Dan: well spent. So I, I, I took a little sidebar. Yeah, yeah. Keep going on the projects, Rob. Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:31] Rob: Projects, anything. Uh, oh gosh. I'm trying to remember it. You know, back in The power years of GTLP, once we got past the pilots, it was, it was, the big thing is Cisco was the internet of things back in the day.
[00:19:43] Rob: Yes. And everything connected, each device connected. So there was a lot of projects and in business case ideas coming out of that. as we got into, you know, the later years with Cisco moving to, uh, more of a services. Base companies. Mm-Hmm. A lot of services. Mm-Hmm. Uh, type or, or software as a service came into play and some Yes.
[00:20:04] Rob: Recurring revenue and those types of projects were coming in. And if you your point that Yeah. We had a really interesting one come through from, um, one of our, uh, chief technology officers in one of the business units, and it was saving the rhinos in South Africa.
[00:20:21] Pia: just small project, small task. Small, yeah, small time, small project.
[00:20:26] Rob: and there were a couple different groups in Cisco trying to hit this, but at the time Cisco had a partnership with, uh, dimension Data out of South Africa in South Africa. And, and so in, in part of the ask on that project, it was a little tough from a business case perspective, but it was really taking a look at how to use the internet of things and everything connected.
[00:20:46] Rob: To, to help secure the, uh, the game parks, right. And things like that. From poachers? From poachers in South Africa. Yeah. And, um, and one of the pro, the, the GTLP project teams that we put together, uh, I think, well it was only one of 'em just based on budget. One of 'em actually, maybe two of 'em, got to go to South Africa on Safari a little bit to do some research as a part of the project.
[00:21:11] Rob: And, um. That was a really cool, it turned into a big marketing campaign at Cisco at the time. And again, the, the pro, the GTP project was just one part of different factions going on, looking at that. But, um, I think some aspects of their, their final project was used in, in some of the actual solution.
[00:21:31] Dan: That's amazing. I think it was an award-winning. Yes. An award-winning project. It was rightly, yeah,
[00:21:38] Pia: it was. Yeah. And, and, I mean, it was Dan and I, we were meeting, um, another senior engineer, um, who will remain nameless, and we did a, we did, we did a team, simulation, which was not real. Okay. And, and, uh, yeah, he, he.
[00:21:53] Pia: It was, his feedback was something, it was brilliantly crafted bull to do with it about it. It was basic not being real. That
[00:21:59] Dan: bullshit exercise. Yeah, it was. It wasn't a bull rhino either. I dunno.
[00:22:06] Pia: But I think there was something so compelling about having real, real world.
[00:22:11] Pia: exercises. And I think that is, takes a lot of effort and that sponsorship and that oversight.
[00:22:17] Pia: what did the leaders gain out of it? What did you see then after that journey of, nine months?
[00:22:24] Rob: You know, it is one of the biggest thing, it, it opened their eyes to how much farther they could take their ideas within sco, and it just wasn't them individually, but them working as a team. Working, and again, it was very, uh, it was very deliberate how we set the teams up because part of it, what we were trying to do was cross collaborate between the different functions and, and a lot of the, the participants coming outta the program.
[00:22:52] Rob: Said, I, I met people I never would've met before within Cisco that they formed partnerships and, and, and things like that and collaboration going forward, which opened up doors across the different Yeah. Functions within Cisco as well. Mm-Hmm. Um, I know our services organization at the time, uh, when I was still there.
[00:23:11] Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, they use the program as one of their, their promotion criteria for. Technical leaders in the services group to move to that principal engineer level. And so even though it wasn't a guarantee of promotion, but they wanted to send their the folks, 'cause again, nomination based programs, they're really looking at the folks that they want to move up to have those types of skills.
[00:23:33] Pia: and certainly my experience of Running some of the programs and being, being part of it was that there was incredible humility on the part of these very intelligent people Yes. To go there. Yeah. You know, I always remember that. Program I over did at Cisco. The engineers would fold their arms for the first three hours, which was the test, to see whether, whether we did, we did pass the credibility test, but then after that it was just such an openness to really explore.
[00:24:03] Pia: Yeah. And realize that there was a whole bunch of communication and collaboration and innovation that could be achieved together. Yeah. And I think that was a fundamental. Uh, outcome, really?
[00:24:14] Rob: Oh, trust me. 20. We did 23. Sessions total over what, seven, eight years or so? And the first two days of the workshop, the in-person workshops, oh, they all had their arms crossed.
[00:24:27] Rob: It was, yeah.
[00:24:28] Pia: Is that, that there's as a mindset, isn't it?
[00:24:31] Dan: Yeah, I think that's right. I wonder if you could just really talk for a minute as we, we come to sort of the end of our conversations been wonderful. Yeah. Um, just think about these, if we can, about engineering leaders, scientific leaders, because I think one of the wonderful things that, um, Cisco did was.
[00:24:46] Dan: And I saw this, this opening up was that I think there are a lot of people who have a technical track.
[00:24:51] Rob: Yeah.
[00:24:51] Dan: They, they don't either see themselves as leaders or see leadership as something that requires this magic of charisma and extroversion. Mm-Hmm. That actually they maybe sometimes feel they don't have or don't want to have.
[00:25:03] Dan: Yeah. And, and so I I'm, I, I was really inspired by this work that you were doing and others were doing with these technical leaders to Yeah. To, to show that. Talk a little bit about that. Could you, where people start, where they get to and the, and the opportunities. Yeah. You know, what
[00:25:16] Rob: the big, from aside from the actual learning and applying it, because we, we sent the participants through, you know, the first couple days of the workshop were in the classic.
[00:25:27] Rob: Yeah. Um, you know. Forming a team, tuck on stages, influencing coaching and things like that. And then we got into present exact presentation skills and then innovation. But a lot of it, you know, I'm thinking back to a lot of the, you know, as again, aside from the business case and learning how to build a business case and getting feedback on that was, um.
[00:25:48] Rob: Just those interpersonal skills Yeah. That they picked up throughout the program and, you know, based on, 'cause a lot of 'em, again, they didn't have a direct reporting relationship with the people they worked with and the direct reports underneath them. So they had to bring really the influencing and coaching skills Mm.
[00:26:03] Rob: Came into play quite a bit. Yes. Yeah. And, um, along with the, the presentation type skills. Yeah. And, and knowing kind of getting into the emotional intelligence aspect of it. Right. But I think the, The success of the program, again, for the technical leader engineering you, you gotta have them. They need to apply it to something real, right?
[00:26:21] Dan: Yeah. That's it. Yes.
[00:26:23] Rob: And they're funny. Now you'd bring this up, Dan. There were, I remember Either it was like maybe toward the end of day five in our in-person workshop where we, we got into the module around innovation with Peter Shere at the time. That was a whole, we talked another hour on that D and um, 'cause that opened their eyes quite a bit too.
[00:26:40] Rob: But they would come back and, because a lot of it we would send, they come into a workshop and they'd work on their project team. Then, you know, at night they have to go catch up on their real job. Yeah. And we had, folks coming back in the workshop saying, I, I just applied what I learned. That day around coaching or influencing or the presentation skills and oh my gosh, it worked.
[00:27:01] Rob: Yeah. Who would've thought, right, you can go home now. But the fact that they, they, you know, again, first. Yes. Crossed on day one. Yeah. And then by day four or five, they're actually applying again. What what we try to do is make it as simple as possible, these models Yeah. As simple as possible and, and that was always just really cool to see when they come back and say it actually worked.
[00:27:23] Rob: Yeah.
[00:27:24] Dan: Yeah. It's great. I have to say, I had to learn to reframe the crossed arms. Um, yeah, because actually. Testing demonstrates a seriousness. It does a sort of, is this gonna be a good use of time? Yeah. Can I commit myself to this? And you think, what a great place to start where you're sort of just under gives respectful.
[00:27:44] Dan: Yeah. It's respectful. And then as, as Peter said, so I, I think if people's, if our listeners are ha witnesses that I think it should be seen positively because it's not someone planning to waste that time. It's making sure they don't waste time.
[00:27:54] Rob: Exactly. And they're, they're, you know, again, it was a very. tough program for these participants to get through because they were doing on top of their real jobs, a lot of stress involved. And and that's part of working as a team. Yeah. Yeah. Is, is they had to learn how to pick up the slack from other team members that might got pulled back into their real job or, I remember there, there was a specific team where someone actually had to lead the team the last couple weeks of, of. Designing or, or prepping for the final interview because they had a death in the family,
[00:28:26] Dan: right? Mm-Hmm. Well,
[00:28:26] Rob: what did the team do after that two months working together? They all had that person's back.
[00:28:31] Dan: Yeah. Right.
[00:28:32] Rob: And they, they, there was no, it was, and the person felt bad for leaving the team in alerts.
[00:28:36] Rob: They said, no, go and do, it'll pick up the work. And that person came back and, and so watching the, the, the team forming and have each other's back, and that was a, a real key part of, part of the program as well. Fantastic.
[00:28:49] Pia: what would be your advice for technical leaders listening to this now? Maybe embarking on their career or, or taking a step in towards, uh, more, a more senior leadership position.
[00:29:01] Pia: So you're learning from, from running these 27 programs, and I do have to do, have to honor Kelvin Stegel. Indeed. Exactly. Kelvin, yeah. As, as being the, the absolute legend who, who delivered this, uh, from our side. And the partnership
[00:29:17] Dan: you had with them
[00:29:18] Pia: was, yeah, it was amazing. What, yeah, what, what, what would your thoughts be and,
[00:29:22] Rob: to
[00:29:22] Pia: those, it's, it
[00:29:23] Rob: is funny, it's one, one of, we had a, a project, or I'm sorry, a program sponsor, exec panelist, Colin Kincaid, who came in about, you know, maybe a third of the way through the program. And he really brought Upleveled, everyone, including us as the program team to, to really, it's, it's. He, he would, um, what was his,
[00:29:42] Rob: I'm trying to remember exactly what his language was, but it's, it's learning the business and learning how to pitch it mm. Was, was his big thing. So again, at that, you know, for, for senior technical leaders wanting to move into that chief technology officer or principal engineer, distinguished engineer, you know, no matter what company, it's, it's really learning the business and learning how to pitch it.
[00:30:04] Rob: Mm. And it's just not about the technical. The technical part of that solution, it's really Okay. What, what do executives want to know? Yeah, they want to know the market opportunity, the CapEx cost, the opex cost and, and you know, sustainability and things like that. And so, um, that opening the participant size quite a bit as they went through the program and that was one of the biggest, Pieces of feedback that, that the ex executive panel would bring to the participants pitching their ideas at the end. Yeah. It was, you know, it was really constructive feedback. Yeah. Our, our panel did not hold back, but it was all in the spirit of development. Yes. Yeah. And that's, um, and then we have project teams actually go and refine that even after the program was done to come back and, and meet with those same exec panels again to Wow.
[00:30:50] Rob: Even refineries. Wow. That's great.
[00:30:51] Dan: Yeah, it's inspiring stuff. Um, well, thank you. And, uh, so our final question as always can be a tricky one, but, um, we, what, what media recommendation would you give our listener?
[00:31:02] Rob: My wife and I actually just got down. I'm not gonna name the other show we always watched because that's, it's, it's not, it's not. We all have, we all have. Yeah. No, that's, it's a little too much violence and other stuff.
[00:31:13] Rob: Um, but we just, well, this show that we just finished is, uh, it's called Industry on HBO. Okay. Here in the States. And it's around a, um. A financial bank institution that's based in America, but it all takes place in, in London. Okay. And all the ins and outs of what goes on in there. So it's a, it's a total, yeah.
[00:31:34] Rob: You know, it's, it's HBO rated R type thing. Okay. Skill go on in it. But it's very interesting, uh, to see that, you know, kind of underbelly of, you know, there's movement movies out there, but the underbelly of, you know, more current Yes. Financial. Things going on. That sounds very good actually. Yeah. The money.
[00:31:51] Rob: Exactly, exactly that. Down.
[00:31:54] Dan: Um, Rob, thank you so much. You're welcome. For being on We Not Me today. It's been really inspiring to, to hear this story out. It's been so good
[00:32:00] Pia: to, to really sort of refresh all the memories. It such rich wonderful. It's wonderful to, yeah.
[00:32:06] Dan: And to grab the opportunity to sit here on the sofa in Berkeley with you.
[00:32:09] Dan: Yeah. Thank you. And so thank you for coming to us and thanks so much for being on the show and all the work you do for teams. Yep. And leaders. Thank you very much.
[00:32:15]
[00:32:18] Pia: I remember actually running a program for Cisco engineers and, and I didn't know what the top engineer was called. They, they're called distinguished engineers. And these people are quite scary because they are super duper bright. Quite often I would remember that on a, on a program. These are the guys that really pushed you buttons as the facilitator.
[00:32:40] Pia: They, they needed to make sure they, you were at the front, knew what you were talking about, and you had until lunchtime to make an impression. And if you didn't it, it was really not gonna go very well. But they often became, I found actually the, the most loyal and supportive because they would, they had this lovely humble streak in them that when they could see, oh, there's these things to be learned and this is about how I communicate, or I influence or I collaborate in a different way.
[00:33:13] Pia: And that it was a real we not me moment where they saw that part of their leadership was actually had a. Had their interdependency with others and what they could co-create together.
[00:33:25] Dan: I mean, Cisco is doing such amazing work with these leaders who are often neglected. You know, and I think that I, I think we mentioned this with, um, with Rob, but quite often these technical leaders and engineers, you know, that, They, they often count themselves out of leadership.
[00:33:40] Dan: Um, because leadership, you know, with among the LinkedIn TI is sort of this razzle dazzle, sort of extrovert, sort of showy, thing that this, this just doesn't appeal. Whereas this, this program showed and the, and, and the, um, the leaders on it showed that actually leadership's not about that. And, um, you can take approaches, you can, You know, you can have a structured approach or leadership to connect with others and get stuff done, um, without ha having to have that sort of, um, extrovert
[00:34:12] Pia: Yeah, the Rle does one. yeah. the charisma. Good old
[00:34:15] Dan: good old charisma. Exactly.
[00:34:16] Pia: bring It on shoulder pads and charisma and you too will make a leader.
[00:34:21] Dan: that. Exactly, Exactly,
[00:34:23] Pia: No, it didn't. It was, it was the complete opposite. And a lot of these guys were actually introverts too, and deep thinkers. and so it was how they saw themselves and it really opened some doors.
[00:34:33] Pia: They did a lot of work on emotional intelligence, um, and they really got into some of the, they went there, they got into the depths of themselves to really go, okay, 'cause this counts.
[00:34:42] Dan: then the, the actual, those tools and the content will see these, these magnificent brains just wrap themselves around that. And just as you say, by lunchtime, they're starting, they, okay, this, I can, I like that. I can do this. And, but, you know, yeah, In their hands, those tools that are sometimes ignored by people who sort of really fall back on their own pers personality or charisma. these tools are actually embraced and really used, um, incredibly, and they, they turn into exceptional leaders.
[00:35:09] Pia: I mean, you and I work with lots of organ, lots of organization doing this sort of. Action learning. And, and if there was anything in the action learning that felt like it was fake or not actually tied to the business results? well, it, it just didn't get particularly great buy-in because that, that was, that was delight trying to do another job that you weren't paid for.
[00:35:29] Pia: Whereas the work that Cisco did was really identifying core projects that made a difference and were, and were integrated with there. Technology and with their clients and had a, and had an impact. But they also had a great ecosystem of sponsors and mentors and panelists. So the senior leaders became their mentors and role models inside this.
[00:35:53] Pia: So, uh, and then the guys that graduated the program sort of circled background and also took those leadership roles. And that's very much a, we, not me, like that ecosystem to. Building that capability inside the organization. Not, you know, singular leader, but, uh, but an expression of leadership across the organization.
[00:36:14] Dan: And, and I have to say, having been in that world for a little while, it's quite rare, isn't it, that you see that leadership development seems to be, and take the goldfish outta the bowl. take them off to, to a nice place for a little while and then bring them back again at the same bowl.
[00:36:27] Dan: But the. With a lack of connection back to the, back, to the, the workplace. But this was really about getting things done. And it was, yeah, a team effort on building that thing. It changed the climate actually of the organization by, by doing that. But it's quite rare. So I think anyone who's in, uh, learning development, who's listening this is, this is an exemplary way to sort of bring in stakeholders to make it more than just a sort of polishing exercise for those, uh, for those leaders that have been selected.
[00:36:57] Pia: And I'm sure Rob, Rob would be only too happy to pass on his, his lessons and some of his wisdom. So,
[00:37:03] Dan: Yes, indeed. He's a well worth a, uh, what do they say? Hit him up on LinkedIn. I know this always sounds a bit violent, doesn't it? I dunno what the story is. Anyway. Connect with, uh, connect with Rob on LinkedIn. You won't regret it, but that is it for this episode. We not me as supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Win Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:37:36] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.