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Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams and your business. Hosted by Ryan Castle, along with Dr Mike Ashby, we share insights, experiences and stories on achieving breakthrough successes in business and life. In addition to a podcast, The Breakthrough also specialises in delivering management training that actually sticks, is cost effective, and easy to implement at scale to sustain change from the inside out.
Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams, and your business. I'm your host, Ryan Hassall along with doctor Mike Ashby. We share insights, experiences, and stories on achieving breakthrough success in business and life. To learn more, click the link in the episode show notes or go to the breakthrough.co. Now let the breakthroughs begin.
Ryan:Welcome on today's episode of the podcast. We want to come to you today with some very fast quick tips around coaching. We are fortunate enough to have coached hundreds of people ourselves individually. We now deliver programs out to our members that critically have a coaching component to them. And I think coaching is one of those concepts that everyone goes, yeah, let's do coaching.
Ryan:But actually, probably people don't do enough of it. And if they do it, they often make some quite fundamental areas. What what's been your experience, Mike, in observing coaching sessions?
Mike:Yeah. I don't think anybody that we've spoken to feels like they do enough coaching. I think a lot of people inside organizations don't regard coaching as necessarily their strong suit. And typically haven't been traditionally promoted for that. Traditionally, they've made their way into into their role because of their technical expertise.
Mike:Perhaps their people management in a broad sense, so they're good with people. But increasingly, organizations are understanding that coaching is at the heart of giving getting leverage. And I suppose that sense goes to the to the question, what is coaching?
Ryan:Yeah. And and let's talk about that and then also the the barriers that hold people back from doing coaching. I think you've talked about the confidence factor about whether someone perceives themselves to be an effective coach, we we can talk to. But your your point, what was your insight then?
Mike:Well, water's coaching bit. It ranges from there's a whole there's a whole raft of areas in which we can help our team. And and coaching's just one of them. Coaching is really helping people discover for themselves the solution. And you do it through feedback and guiding people and opening them up.
Mike:You know, coaching is really opening people up to improving their performance. If you're going to go do it like this, it's not coaching. Right?
Ryan:If your coaching sounds like telling Yeah. Do this, do that Yeah. That's not coaching. Yeah. Instructing.
Ryan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there are times when instructing is really appropriate Totally. But in a coaching session, if you feel your language is more telling than asking, then you're probably not coaching.
Mike:And it goes, no, you didn't do it right. You gotta do it like this. No, don't put your foot there, push for that. You know, there is a there's an element in those sorts of things where there's just a series of activities that need to be done exactly the same way time and time And that so that's training.
Ryan:Yes.
Mike:What's mentoring, for example? Mentoring, as you say, when I was in this situation so the mentoring is very much about your previous experience. Yes. When I was in this situation at so and so, here's what I did. And you can kind of take from that what you want.
Mike:That's really the mentoring piece. The advising is, you know, we've often been more particularly with business owners where we've been more advisory, you know, I think you should think about it like this. Yes. And go this away. So that's that's advising.
Mike:The coaching bit is is really starting with well, it's almost going into what we call the active mindset. The active mode which is, what's really going on here? Mhmm. Here's the situation. What's really going on here?
Mike:And then inviting people to kind of learn into it themselves. Mhmm.
Ryan:And I feel like that is one of the barriers that comes up around coaching is people feel like to be a coach they have to have all the answers. Yeah. And that is not the case at all. You have to bring a willingness to explore Yep. Some more questioning than telling Yeah.
Ryan:Ask people what's really going on here. Maybe being able to utilize your experience to help people step back from their current maybe micro view of what they have in front of them and help them step back to a to a macro view. Mhmm. Though if you bring that kind of intent to your coaching sessions, think that you're off to a good start. You don't need all the answers.
Ryan:Our personal coaching experience is we've coached hundreds of business owners who knew a lot more about their businesses than we did, but in the ability of us to explore with them and open their ideas and their thinking, they were able to come up with the idea or the right outcome themselves. But that was they just needed someone to help them guide them towards that that outcome.
Mike:Yeah. And and look, I think it's it's not wise to be too hard and fast about this and holding back from helpful suggestions for people just because it's not technically coaching.
Ryan:Yeah, sure.
Mike:You know? Course. I think I always liked the idea, we had it as one of our kind of mantras in the business, was part of our role was a bright light, a clear mirror, and a kick in the pants. And that's not a bad definition of coaching. A bright light, you know, here's what's possible for you given your abilities and given your performance here, this is what it could look like.
Mike:And here's some ideas even about how you, you know, you might might go that way. The clear mirror is here's how you're currently performing. You know, good coaching is about, you know, if you think about it in terms of serving at tennis, which I won't presume because Ryan can play tennis, you see. So and you've had some coaching. I have.
Mike:Oh, how was that?
Ryan:Really useful and the reason the coaching is most useful is it's very hard to observe yourself. Totally. You know and if we do talk about the sporting analogy you have a sense of what you're doing but you can't actually you know step away from yourself and see what's what's really going on and then often what a coach and that professional tennis seems kind of brings is an observation of what's going on and then ideas around how it could be improved or developed because they've got some clear understanding about that. You know the exact same philosophy applies in work environment as well.
Mike:And and there are some basics that people simply can't improve without some guidance, know. Serving I I remember the analogy of of, you know, foot placement when you're serving. Mhmm. If you keep putting it in the wrong place, you're never gonna get the right outcome, right? But, you know, those kind of technical improvements are are part of coaching.
Mike:And that is that kind of clear mirror and the bright light. It may not even be all that bright. It's just a little flicker that says, just move your foot, you know, 45 degrees rather than
Ryan:we see so much benefit coming from coaching conversations, but we also see so many people reluctant to to have them. And some of the things we observed around the reluctance is we talked about, hey, I don't know everything so why should I be coaching? I don't have all the answers so what would I I do? We see time being often referenced as a barrier where people go, oh look I'm already busy. I've got five people on my team, how am I also going to run a coaching session for them?
Ryan:Here's a question for you, how long do you think coaching session should be? Oh it's podcast, no one's asking back.
Mike:This is not a webinar.
Ryan:What would be look our traditional, what we default to so often a business, oh, it must be an hour.
Mike:It's gotta be an hour.
Ryan:It's a meeting time. Let's make it an hour. Our observation is when you make it an hour, around fifty to fifty five minutes turns into work in progress Yeah. Chat. What have we got on?
Ryan:How's that project going? How's how's the delivery of x y and z happening? And in the last five minutes I go, oh Michael supposed to be doing some coaching with you. Are you all good mate? Yeah.
Ryan:Sweet. You're good. Okay cool. Let's let's catch up for a coaching session next month and zero coaching has happened. Our guidance, do fifteen minute blocks.
Ryan:Firstly, if you're the person doing the coaching, fitting in three, four, five, fifteen minute blocks in your month not onerous so you can actually get it get it done. You'll be less likely to cancel those sessions when start getting full so you can make them happen because here's a word of caution. If you book a coaching session with a team member and then go, hey look something else more important come up can we postpone or cancel? Just think about the message that sends to your team member. Yeah.
Ryan:Basically says, hey there's other stuff that's more important than you so you know, sorry about that. So fifteen minute blocks, know, we understand that things happen, but try very, very, very hard to honor the commitment Yeah. And turn up with a intent to be active, ask that person what's really going on for them. Just simple questions like, how do you think you could develop further? What are you currently finding as a challenge in your role?
Ryan:Some of those kind of questions just can start such wonderful conversations.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely formal regular coaching even in that kind of fifteen minute chunk is really good. What I'm gonna add to that is the even shorter in the moment.
Mike:Yes. And I have Yes. Three dimensions. Oh. Three.
Mike:And they're really, really simple. The first of them is one phrase, which is this is a coaching moment. It's amazing how when we take on an identity, we can lose the discomfort of being ourselves and kind of, oh, I'm not too sure of how do I feel about coaching. Just to simply say, this is a coaching moment. Draws a little circle around it.
Mike:You've got your coach hat on and say, okay. When you did this, this is what happened. Next time you do this, try it like that. Okay? That's a really transformational moment for people.
Mike:Organizations trying to do coaching, getting their managers just to go, this is a coaching moment has enabled lots of people to break through that discomfort barrier.
Ryan:Can I jump in with with that one? And I think the other important part of the mindset is coaching is not seated in correcting of bad behavior. Correct. Yes, it is one element where we might be looking to improve and develop people, but coaching around where things are good and could be great or where we could amplify things that are already happening by making people aware of another dimension about what's going on in the positive zone, gold.
Mike:Perfect segue. Number two, one of the ways that we can enhance people's performance is to pull the curtain back. Remember when you see the great Matt Church?
Ryan:Mhmm.
Mike:And I and I described it as like when a magician pulls the curtain back on the tricks and he showed us how he delivers those absolute master classes in presentation. And it was just, you know, it was it was fantastic. Right? Actually, pulling the curtain back on a daily basis is a really important way of upskilling your people. And what I mean by that is when somebody asks you a question or wants clarification or seeks a decision, very often our inclination is to give them the answer, isn't it right?
Ryan:It certainly is.
Mike:It certainly is. Here's the decision for you. I mean
Ryan:other other people I've observed do Yeah. Not us.
Mike:Lots of people do it like that because it's efficient. We know the answer. We don't have time. Taking a minute to go because so these are very short. One was this is a coaching moment.
Mike:This is just one word. Because. Explaining why you chose to do that forces you to go into your kind of intuition, all your experience that you've brought to bear in that moment of making a decision. You know, it's an old story. You're not getting paid for the hours you work.
Mike:It's the years you've worked, the experience you've gathered. And that's invisible in a one word answer. Nobody can see why or how you got there. Mhmm. So going through and saying, I'm choosing this because of a, b, and c.
Mike:People go, oh, okay. I get the why. So that magic word because is really powerful in informed coaching every single day coaching.
Ryan:And if I can add into that one, I think the the next evolution of that is initially you're doing the course, this is how I've thought about it and in the next stage becomes when someone comes to you with that decision or request is to then encourage them to think about the dimensions that you would normally consider. Wow. Oh, is that another nice segue? It's actually my fourth. Three points plus a bonus.
Mike:Plus a bonus. Okay. Let's do the bonus one. So we've got We started with This is a coaching moment because here's the third magic phrase. They're all just magic phrases.
Mike:Third magic phrase. How would you do it? So when people come to you with a problem that's within their ability to answer and you give them the answer, you've just lost a coaching moment. You've just lost a fabulous coaching opportunity. How would you think about that?
Mike:How would you do it? Or why would you do it like that? Fantastic. Right. You're like, that's opening up.
Mike:Sick. Taking people into a kind of an immediate real life problem that they've just parked on you. They've just delegated it upwards. And you turn it back and say, how would you do it?
Ryan:Very powerful. Very powerful for everyone involved. Right? Because it's such a learning for the person that's bought the question and the future freedom that that will bring to the person who's being asked the question because if we can coach, if we can develop then, you know, down the track, that person doesn't need to come with that question anymore. They can they can solve it themselves.
Mike:You know, the number of conversations I've had with people, like, oh, they come to me with the same problem time after time. I keep telling them the answer. Why don't they learn the answer? And I said, well, you ask them how they would do it. Don't answer them.
Mike:Just just just ask them how would they do it? And they come back a month later. It was amazing. It was so amazing.
Ryan:I remember one of our clients actually after they learned about this coaching approach having a bit of a chuckle with us a couple months later where their team had realized that it actually wasn't even worth going and ask them questions anymore because they just always got asked how would you deal
Mike:with this? And
Ryan:they figured out that actually it was easier for me to solve for them to solve it themselves than it was to go and seek clarification of the answer. And up goes their capability, right? Freeing the person who normally got asked the question to work higher in the business, add more value. Yeah. Totally.
Mike:Brilliant. Totally. How would you think about it? And then the fourth one is again from one of our modules, and it was something that my wife, Francesca, talked about it is and she was a great manager and a really good coach. She would always take a junior with her to every meeting regardless of whether it was, you know, it's a Steven Tyndall or ministers or Sure.
Mike:Whoever. She would always take somebody with her. And afterwards, she would say, so how do you think? And in particular, with that, you know, if they got to play a role in it, it was gonna so how did you how did you did you go then? How did you think that went?
Mike:What would you do differently next time? So inviting people, this is such a great part of it. The self review bit, oh man. You know, if you can coach people to review their own performance I still have this discussion with my son when he was learning the piano, know, My youngest son, and he would say, have I done enough yet? I said, well, Dom, one of the things you've got to learn to do is practice.
Mike:You actually have to learn how to practice. Only you know when you've practiced enough. Because if you always kind of sell yourself short, well, you'll never get very good, will you? So you have to work out how much practice you have to do.
Ryan:And did he understand that at two and a half? Might have been a
Mike:little bit The battles, the battles used to go, oh my god. So yes he did, and he understood that. He understood that. I guess he was 14 or 15, which is even worse than two and a half. In so many ways.
Ryan:And in a macro level, that coaching element is about helping others take ownership, right? Totally. So stop stop asking me when enough is enough. Yeah. Start evaluating yourself when enough is enough.
Ryan:So, yeah, if that was an outcome of your coaching,
Mike:I'm not sure. I think it was. And what he was taking ownership of was his learning. He was taking ownership of his process of learning. And, you know, that that fabulous question, the Francesca, you know, how do you think you went?
Mike:What would you do differently next time? Again, the how you think it you know, that inviting that self review and inviting some reflection about how to do it better, gold.
Ryan:And we we talk about that as a as a retro, so a quick retrospective review of something that's happened. We try to do those, often and, quickly. Yes. So we just ran a webinar this morning, We had a quick stand up with three key people involved and did a very quick retro from planning phase through to execution and delivery. And we could very quickly isolate some areas of improvement.
Ryan:What we'd do again the same because it went well and what we do do differently. We didn't wait for another one hour meeting where there was a big review process and no one had time and probably forgotten by then. Kind of in the moment like the coaching moment, quick quick reviews and the other thing I love about that approach from Francesca, of course over time people start getting conditioned to they know damn well that they're gonna get asked that question after the meeting or whatever the piece is. So then in the moment they're going, oh how is this going? How could it how would we do this differently?
Ryan:How can I how can I change and shape it in the moment? And now we're into some really Active learning in the moment,
Mike:you know, coach self coaching which is the ultimate. Yeah. When we can coach ourselves effectively and accurately Mhmm. Then we're onto something.
Ryan:Okay. Let's recap.
Mike:Yes. Four things.
Ryan:Yes. I'm gonna start with a zero and then can read the four. Look, the the zero one is just start. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan:If you want to schedule them in with your team, make them fifteen minutes and start, you don't need to know the answers. Yes. And then your top three plus the bonus.
Mike:That's the formal review. That's the and that's that's absolutely critical. The informal, in the moment review, the top three plus the bonus deck, all for just, So the first one was This is a coaching This
Ryan:is a coaching moment.
Mike:Right. This is a senior moment. The second one was Because. Because. The third one was How would you do it?
Mike:How would you do it? And the fourth one was The bonus. Well, was a double run because there were two questions. Yes. Right.
Mike:The retro. Retro.
Ryan:Where the questions are.
Mike:How do you think that went? What would you do differently next time? Brilliant. We'll call them Frank's questions.
Ryan:I like them. They're great questions. Build those into your interactions with your team. If you're not coaching already, get started. If you're being way too onerous and formal about this, drop it.
Ryan:Just get involved. Start asking some open ended questions. You'll be amazed the value that comes out of those. Not only the gold that gets discovered, but the sense of understanding trust and value that your coaching recipient, coachee kind of feels from you spending those amounts of time with them is is epic. Totally.
Ryan:Great job. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast. If you yourself have any particular coaching insights you'd like to share, please drop us a comment. We'd like love to hear. Thanks very much.
Ryan:Bye bye. See you.