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Unlocking Leadership, previously Leadership 2020, is a podcast helping leadership lead in a world that is changing ever quickly. Join us as we interview even more inspiring people who provide information and skills on how to tackle the big questions affecting today’s leaders.
We blend real-life leadership experiences of our guests with the latest management theory to provide practical, relevant tips for anyone in a leadership position.
Unlocking Leadership asks the big questions about being a better leader in the modern workplace. Hosted by Clare Carpenter.
Welcome to Unlocking Leadership, a
podcast about leading in a changing
world, brought to you by Corndel,
your strategic skills partner.
I'm your host, Clare Carpenter.
I'm joined today by Lucy Hunte.
Lucy is the National Programme Manager
for Apprenticeships with NHS England.
Hello, Lucy.
Hello!
Hi, lovely of you to join me, thank you.
Let's start by you finding
your voice in the podcast.
I know there's lots of big
conversations for us to have
today, but let's start with you.
Who are you?
How are you landing?
Tell us who you are, Lucy.
So I am National Programme Manager
for Apprenticeships at NHS England.
I have been in kind of the
training and education sector
for probably about 25 years now.
First started working for Video
Arts, the management training
video company owned by John Cleese.
Yes!
So had a real baptism of fire into sales
and leadership there and then moved
into colleges and I've been with the
NHS for coming up to eight years now.
Wow, Video Arts, you're
taking me right back now.
I remember using the interviewing
techniques video when I was first
starting off as a manager myself.
Yeah, no, really hugely popular.
So many people still remember that
and yeah, I show my age when I talk
to some of the younger team and
they look at me blankly, but anyone
like above 30 will have seen one of
the videos at some stage in their
inductions or training, wouldn't they?
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Oh, funny, thank you and that feels
like a world away from where you find
yourself now then with NHS England.
What's been the sort of
trajectory of that for you?
What's taken you along
that path, would you say?
So it's always been passionate about,
you know, education and helping
people kind of better themselves.
I was at Video Arts for nine years
and got made redundant on maternity
leave, but that's another issue.
So that was a really interesting time
because I was in business development
and the company made that kind of same
age old mistake of promoting the best
salesperson who not necessarily had
any leadership experience or training.
But thankfully, I had a whole host
of resources that I could draw upon.
So yeah, I watched all of the leadership
titles and took notes and things like
that and then when I left there, I
went to work for Lewisham and Southwark
College and this was in the early days
of apprenticeships when it was still
frameworks and again, that was a real
eye opener for me because I was just
like, you know, what's the catch here?
We're giving people the opportunity to
study for a qualification during their
working time, it's funded by their
employer and had really great success
there and then I was headhunted by a
college closer to home, Havering College
and while I was there I set up the first
clinical healthcare apprenticeships across
London, the local trust that I was working
for and then my contact at the trust,
the job at Health Education England, so
that's what we originally were called, we
merged with NHS England in April, but she
basically sent me the job and was like,
you've done this for us, do you want to
do it for, you know, the whole country
and yeah, that was eight years ago.
There have been lots and lots of
changes to the world of apprenticeships
in those eight years, haven't there?
I've been involved in them for a few,
but tell us what you've seen change
in that time around this place.
So for me, I've always been really
passionate about apprenticeships
in terms of a dual approach.
So yes, it's about attracting brand
new talent into the workforce.
But also for us in the NHS, it's really
important about being able to progress
and upskill the existing workforce.
So, you know, the very first registered
nurse apprentices that we had, they
were existing healthcare support
workers who couldn't have afforded to
give up work and go back to university
and do the traditional route, they
had families and they, through the
apprenticeship, got that opportunity.
So you know, going to their
graduation was one of my proudest
moments because you actually
realise the power of apprenticeship
and how it can change lives.
I just listened to them talk, you know,
some of them, they were like because
they'd had the opportunity to redo
their functional skills, they could
help their grandkids with their maths
homework whereas before they used
to hide in the kitchen and hope that
they didn't get asked any questions.
So, I just think it's a really positive
thing to be able to go yep, we do
need to do a lot more to attract new
talent into the NHS, but to be able
to upskill our existing workforce has
been a really fantastic opportunity.
Retention has always been a real
struggle in the NHS, but now if people
can see that they can actually become
a registered professional via the
apprenticeship route, it's win-win!
I wonder if you have seen differences
between the way that, I guess the
workforce, but also outside of that,
the wider population, receive this
world of apprenticeships now than they
did eight years ago, thinking about
our response to somebody who says,
oh, I'm doing an apprenticeship or I'm
studying an apprenticeship now versus
then, what's different, would you say?
It is still a challenge!
Sometimes is groundhog day, I think
because the NHS, we're such a huge
organisation, 350 different job roles, so
I am still talking to people that don't
know about the new apprenticeships, they
still have, you know, visions of YTS for
plumbers and hairdressers back in the day.
So they actually, you know, there's
still a lot of work to be done in
terms of that parity of esteem.
But it is really satisfying
when I convert people.
I remember, you know, some of the early
conversations I'd have with senior
managers in the NHS and talk to them
about the benefits of apprenticeship
and how they've now got this ring fenced
pot of levy, you know, in tough times,
the training budget's always the first
thing to kind of go, so they actually
got this ring fenced pot of money and
I remember, you know, very difficult
conversations, no, no, I want them to
do the proper degree, so you have to
say, it's the exact same degree, it's
just funded by a different mechanism and
we're starting that all over again with
the Medical Doctor Apprenticeship, you
know, having to kind of fight against
all the allegations of dumbing down the
profession when it is a GMC regulated
degree, we're just giving the opportunity
to people that couldn't necessarily
afford to do the traditional route.
Essentially you're unpaid for five to
seven years if you're a doctor in training
and so that excludes a lot of people.
So yeah, I think it's getting
better than it was, I still
think there's a lot more to do.
I'm finding that myself with my
16 and 14 year old still, despite
what I do, apprenticeships are
a dirty word in their school.
My 16 year old was told, oh
no, you're far too clever.
to do an apprenticeship.
Luckily she said you haven't
met my mum and then I got
invited in to do some talks.
But yeah, the headmistress at the end did
apologise and say wow, you know, I hadn't
realised about all the changes, you know,
she still thought it was for the kids
they didn't want to keep on for A Levels.
Yeah, that's where it all
starts really, isn't it?
In that sort of school place where,
you know, if teaching staff aren't
aware of the differences now between
apprenticeships then and now, if you like,
you know, it filters out into parents and
into the students themselves, doesn't it?
Definitely and I think more
so for multicultural families,
something I've really found.
So I judged the Multicultural
Apprenticeship Alliance, their
apprenticeship awards and last year when I
was doing it, you know, there was hundreds
and hundreds of applicants, really
high caliber and all of them, literally
every single one said they didn't get
any support or advice and guidance in
school and then their second barrier was
convincing their parents and families
that it was a genuine route that, you
know, it wasn't a scam, that they actually
were going to get their degree paid for.
So yeah, I think there's still a lot
of cultural issues as well in terms
of the perception of apprenticeships
that we need to overcome.
So you've talked there about some of the
non traditional roles that apprenticeship
training can offer support with and there
are others, aren't there as well, in the
more technical parts of our organisation,
so in particular things like data,
technology, or those kind of areas, I
wonder what use NHS England is making of
apprenticeships in those areas as well.
So we think it's going to
be a big growth area for us.
I think, you know, in the
NHS, we're embracing the use
of more technology and AI.
So I think that's going to be
an interesting development.
But yeah, being able to analyse
data, being able to understand,
you know, health inequalities
and how that the impact of that.
So analysing and interrogating data
is a really, important part of that.
You know, a lot of our systems are moving
to the electronic patient system, so
that's a big kind of digital move as well.
So, it's making sure that our staff have
got the skills to kind of move with the
times as well, and that we can embrace
the technology to make things easier for
all patients and the care that we give.
Yeah and you know, it's not without
its challenges at the moment, is it?
Or ever has been, frankly.
I wonder then about your route into
leadership and how you accessed training
resources in that space, and you talked
about how people who are really good
at a particular thing are promoted
to lead other people who are doing
that thing because of their technical
or their expert ability rather than
their leadership capacity necessarily
and we've seen lots of really strong
examples I think, over time of, you
know, what the CMI call the sort of
accidental manager, you know, management
by results rather than necessarily
management by leadership skill.
What happens when you notice
that within your organisation?
How do you support development
of leaders through your role?
I kind of draw on my experience
when I do see that happening.
You know, for me, it was actually
really challenging because I was
working in a very male dominated
environment, I was the only woman and
then I became their boss and there
was kind of a lot of resentment there.
But I think for me, it was
always just being having that
integrity and leading by example.
So I still did the day job, but I also
worked with them to kind of improve
themselves and, you know, didn't enforce
what I thought they needed to do.
We'd have a conversation about, you know,
where do you think you could improve?
And I found that really helped and
yeah, when I see kind of new managers
in the NHS, then it's just kind of
offering that support and guidance,
we do have a lot of kind of resources
and internal CPD programs as well.
So I definitely encourage people to take
advantage of them and read, you know,
I love reading a good leadership book.
There's a, you know, there's
a wealth of stuff out there.
In the middle of John Amaechi's
book at the moment and he's just an
absolute legend and a real inspiration.
I got, I was lucky enough to get to
meet him at an apprenticeship event
and I don't know, you know, he's the
formal basketball player and I was just
kind of looking up at him and in awe.
But, you know, we had a really good
conversation and we talked about
imposter syndrome, which I think is
a massive thing still and I see that
sometimes in colleagues and, you know,
I'll send a little message in the
chat saying, you know, you're doing a
fantastic job, you're great and I think
you know, I can definitely see that
when people have those kind of wobbles
and you know, it does come across.
So it's just helping people to be
able to kind of push through that
and actually think, yep, I deserve
to be here and I'm doing a great job.
What do you think are some of the
challenges which are prevalent
now for leaders in the workplace?
I guess thinking about what might be
different now to some of those that
we face 10 or 15 years ago even, post
pandemic, different locations of work,
the very broad spread of demographics
in the workplace now, where are the
challenges for leaders today do you think?
So, I think in the NHS, mental health
and wellbeing is a huge part of that post
COVID, you know, it was really intense.
I was sitting at home protected on
my laptop so, but I still was dealing
with, you know, apprentices that
were being put on the front line in,
you know, horrifying circumstances
without PPE, without the proper
equipment and that has taken its toll.
So, I still think we have, you
know, a lot of people that are
incredibly burnt out because of that.
Maybe they have lost some of their
passion for teaching the next generation
as well because they've had to be go
through that such an intense experience.
But I think, you know, remote working, we
really embraced it and I think because I
traveled a lot for work anyway, I wasn't
necessarily an office based person because
I'd be out and about across the country.
But for some of our team that was a,
you know, a real kind of adjustment
that they had to get used to and also
just kind of recognising that within
your teams, you're going to have
different personalities and making sure
that everyone kind of gets a voice.
We had some neurodiverse people
in our teams as well, and they
were really struggling with
that kind of lack of connection.
So we had to change our way
of working sometimes just to
make sure that was inclusive.
But I do think that's a real
issue in leadership at the moment.
If people can do an effective job at
home and there's this move to move people
back into the office, then it needs to be
for a good reason and I think, you know,
collaboration is really important, those
water cooler moments when you're having
a chat over a cup of tea, I don't think
you can replace them, but I don't think it
should be kind of an arbitrary enforcement
if it's of no real benefit for the team.
Yeah, it's a really interesting,
developing landscape of location, isn't
it, in terms of where people can work
and it also, I think, opens up lots of
debate and discussion around equity and
fairness of being able to choose where
you work depending on the role that you
do and to a certain degree the amount of,
I want to say, sort of service user that
you have facing in the role that you have.
I'm not sure if that's the right
language to use for NHS England.
Perhaps it isn't, I'm not sure.
No, yeah, I mean, it's very different
for patient facing, kind of clinical
roles as opposed to mine, which I
would say is probably more HR, OD
role that can be done anywhere.
But yeah, and I think, you know, equity
is something that's really important
with getting people back into the office
because carers or people with young
children, the move to go back in two days
a week, well two days a week childcare
is going to be really hard to find.
Two days a week respite care,
if you're a carer, is actually
going to be really hard to find.
So we want to make sure that, yeah,
we're not losing those part of the
workforce that have been able to work
perfectly well all through the pandemic.
So I do think, you know, there should
be kind of exceptions and on a case
by case basis rather than just a
blanket rule, because I think that
would potentially destroy morale
in any team really, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I agree with you.
It was interesting, I was reading
yesterday some more research that's been
done that talks about how home workers,
both feel like and actually in the last
couple of years can be seen to be less
promoted than those who are working
in a more office based environment I
want to say, but one where they have
greater exposure and where they're seen
more by the so called powers that be.
I wonder what your experience is
of that, whether you've seen that
play out in your organisation?
No, I mean, I read similar and I just
thought, yeah, that is quite interesting
and I suppose it would depend on your
sector as well, where, you know, if you
are collaborating and that senior manager
gets the chance to see someone shine
or, you know, I think that's probably,
there is some truth in that, isn't there?
But I think that in our organisation,
you know, we've actually worked harder
since we've been home based, you know,
now I'm not having to do a commute
and fight for a hot desk, I'll log
on as soon as the kids go to school,
eight o'clock in the morning and often
work right through till dinner time.
So, you know, I think without having
that commute, they're actually getting
more out of our team and I think as well,
you know, we did recruit apprentices
and that was challenging because, you
know, I'm very much of old school,
kind of sit by Nellie when you're
telling someone how to do something.
So that was really difficult actually
you know, trying to train this young
person and only ever seeing their head
on a screen, but you know, we had some
workarounds about that you know, we'd have
a team's channel where one of us would
be available if they did want to just
drop in and, you know, how do I do this?
Or I'm struggling with this, but yeah,
I mean, it was a big learning curve
because yeah, you normally do, if you're
training somebody, they'll sit by you
and you'll train them on what to do.
So we didn't have that luxury, but you
know, she completed her apprenticeship,
she's got promotion and is still
with us, so I think it is possible.
But yeah, I think it's more that
leadership has to be kind of reactive
and proactive at the same time, if you
see what I mean because you need to kind
of anticipate where potential issues
may be and we did recognise in the wider
organisation that, you know, potentially
we were very lucky with our apprentice
because she, you know, she's very
confident and wasn't afraid to kind of
speak up, but if you're not naturally that
way and you are potentially struggling, I
think it was a lot more difficult to reach
out and also we took for granted again,
you know, I'm in my house, I've got my
kids, I've got all my space, but a lot of
our apprentices were working in kind of
shared houses, all trying to sit around
the kitchen table and fight for the Wi Fi.
So there was things that we hadn't even
factored in that actually that younger
generation were really heavily impacted.
Yeah, I really noticed that as well in
the work that I was doing, you know,
people sat on their bed, like, trying to
balance a, actually balance a laptop on
their knees, or on a windowsill or, you
know, on a pillow and that kind of thing,
exactly as you say, you're fighting for Wi
Fi and, you know, it's tricky, isn't it?
Yeah.
Our organisation were really good.
They basically, we already had laptops,
the majority of us from traveling, but
yeah, estates and facilities essentially
switched for 6,000 people to be working
from home in less than a month and as
you can imagine for the NHS that was no
mean feat, but yeah, we had a catalogue
to basically choose a desk and chairs
from, so they didn't expect anybody to
kind of be out of pocket themselves.
So I think that made a big
difference, especially for our
younger apprentices as well.
I still think about, perhaps within NHS
England, there was more capacity to plan
for that kind of event, I'm not sure.
Was this something that was part
of a register of risk somewhere, do
you think, that people were thinking
about being able to respond in such
a great way as you've just described?
If it was, it was way above my pay grade,
you know, because pandemic, what's that?
You know, and then you read that actually
we're due them every couple of hundred
years, no one told me, but no, I think
there must have been some sort of, you
know, mobilisation plan for them to be
able to do it and do it so effectively.
Yeah, I mean, our IT were fantastic, our
estates and facilities were fantastic,
you know, they did a lot at a really fast
pace, but yeah, I would imagine there
probably was some sort of outline, but no
one expected it and even working in the
NHS, I wasn't kind of, this is not really
happening, lockdown, like you know, it was
just so much of an unknown for everybody.
Without being trite and without in
any way underplaying the level of
really difficult outcomes from that,
there have been some lessons for us as
leaders to take from the way that played
out in our workforce, haven't there?
Perhaps for me, one of the things I've
noticed more than anything is It's
the capacity of leaders who I've never
heard talking about mental health and
wellbeing within their workforce, really
genuinely thinking about the impact
of you know, the way the organisation
is working for their people and
that's got to be a good thing, right?
Yeah, definitely, a hundred percent.
I think, you know, it was
a steep learning curve.
Things that you never factored would
be an issue, but you know, I was
lucky that my children are quite.
old and quite self sufficient, but
you know, we had toddlers and newborns
in the back of Teams calls and also
just the isolation and loneliness.
Some of our team, you know, were single
and didn't have any family nearby and
it was really pretty bleak for them.
So, you know, we had to make sure that
we had kind of informal check ins and
we would have quiz nights and, you know,
just little things to kind of make us
feel connected and I think, you know, I
got to know my team a lot better without
actually seeing them in person because
we did get to kind of that glimpse into
everybody's day to day lives and you
realise that, you some people have got
a lot more to juggle than others, but
yeah, it was definitely a learning curve,
but I do think being more aware of kind
of the realities for different people
and being able to make adjustments is
really, really important as a leader.
So without a crystal ball and being
able to look into the future, I wonder
what you are thinking about, what keeps
you awake at night now, Lucy, around
challenges that leaders face in the
next few years within their workplace?
I'm kind of half intrigued, half
scared by AI and what that potentially
could help with in the NHS.
I know that in terms of apprenticeships,
it's already being utilised really well
by some of our training providers and
assessment organisations and being able to
kind of, you know, get AI to do multiple
choice questions and things like that.
I'm also very wary of the kind of
unease that it could be doing people
out of jobs, so I think there's a
lot to see how that all plays out.
But I think if used properly, it could
be really useful, but I would also
be really conscious of it not making
that kind of digital divide even
bigger and I'm thinking, you know,
in terms of schools and when we were
in the pandemic, again, you take for
granted that children are going to
have a laptop to use or they're going
to have access to Wi Fi and it quickly
became apparent that wasn't the case.
So I do think that's kind of a risk
in terms of AI that those that are
already, you know, left behind are
going to be even further behind.
I do worry kind of just around kind of
culture and corporate culture at the
moment, you know, there's a lot in the
media, transphobia, racism, you know,
there's so many hot topics and people seem
to feel free to speak and talk vile things
nowadays where, you know, my mum always
said, if you wouldn't say something to
somebody's face, don't write it online and
I think that's long been forgotten now.
So that does scare me in terms of, you
know, attracting new people into the
workforce, have we got a good culture?
You know, are we diverse enough?
I think that's a real challenge and
yeah, I do worry for the, you know,
for the next generation, the younger
generations coming up because they
have to deal with a lot more pressure
in terms of kind of social media and
cyberbullying and things that, you know,
just didn't exist when I was younger.
And we have a duty of care, don't we,
as employers and as leaders to pay
attention to that in the people for
whom we have responsibility too, right?
Definitely.
How do we support leaders to pay attention
to potential warning signs within their
area of responsibility that somebody
might be impacted by that level of,
your words there, like cyber bullying
or some kind of negativity in terms
of their responses on social media.
I mean you see lots of very widely
publicised examples with the BBC,
for example, but I'm wondering
about what we do day to day in our
workplace to give leaders some kind
of guidance on what to do with that?
I think it's just making sure that
you've got that kind of safe space
for people to speak up, you know, in
the NHS we have freedom to speak up
guardians if something is, you know,
actually happening to be able to report
and escalate that in a safe space.
I think that's really important and
it's just, I think, making sure that
you are having regular check ins.
I think that, you know, I know my team
well enough now that, yep, someone might
have an off day but, you know, if it's a
couple of days or in a couple of meetings,
then it is just, you know, putting in
time to have a catch up and find out
what's going on and I think that's really
important because we are all so busy, but
when you do start neglecting those check
ins, then that's when things can escalate.
Yeah and I wonder what we do as well
about, you know, you touched on this
earlier, thinking about attraction of
great new talent into an organisation
and thinking about NHS England as a crime
example, lots of media attention, which
is obviously, you know, very unlikely
to be the whole story, of course.
But more than that, this perception of
high pressure, potentially lower reward,
lots of expectation of change, how do
you work to attract great new talent into
the organisation, in particular thinking
about this place of social mobility and
making sure that the population itself is
well represented within your organisation?
It's really challenging, particularly
at the moment, for the first time
our applications for the traditional
route for nursing, for example,
they're down 25% year on year, that's
the figures we've had from UCAS and
that real concern, whether they're
holding out for a degree apprenticeship
could be the positive upside of that.
But I think in reality, we need to be
really aware of, you know, the headlines,
the strikes, the low pay, all of that is
going to have a knock on effect in terms
of attracting people in, as you say, the
perception that it's going to be, they're
massively overstressed and underpaid,
so I think we need to, you know, really
focus on the potential, you know, with
apprenticeships you do a lot around
kind of career pipelines and pathways.
So you can do level 2, all the way up
to level 7, you can be clinical and
change into non clinical or vice versa.
So I think it's just being
able to offer that opportunity.
It's really important in the NHS
that our workforce represents the
communities that we serve, and I think
that's kind of the ethos that runs
through our Talent for Care strategy.
But it is a challenge, and I think, you
know, especially now in a cost of living
crisis and certainly for some of our entry
level, kind of Level 2, Level 3 roles, we
are competing with Aldi and Amazon, you
know, my local trust used to have a steady
pipeline of Level 2, Level 3s coming in as
healthcare support workers, but now Amazon
put on a shuttle bus that pick up from all
around the town centre and take them out
to the warehouse and obviously pay them a
bit more and give them discounts and those
numbers are falling through the floor.
So I think it is, we need to do
a lot of kind of damage repair,
damage limitation in terms of the
perception of working in the NHS.
I think there's a lot to kind
of recover from the pandemic.
But yeah, it is something that we're
really aware of, that there is that
perception and then actually to see
that translated into the client and
applications, we're going to have to do
a lot of work to kind of prepare that.
That's a really interesting
challenge to look at from the outside
and I can only imagine how that
impacts from the inside as well.
I'm thinking about how you harness
the power of people who've had and are
having really wonderful, successful
careers within the organisation, who
are doing things they couldn't do
anywhere else, surrounded by colleagues
they wouldn't have anywhere else with
opportunities, you know, that don't
exist in different organisations and how
you can make the most of those stories.
No, definitely.
I think, you know, people aspire to
what they see, so we need to make
sure that we have got kind of these
positive role models and case studies
of people's, you know, personal journeys
and the distance that they've traveled.
I do think, you know, People obviously
choose to work in the NHS, but there's
still a lot to be done in terms of
kind of misconceptions and even when I
do school engagement, you know, young
people, they don't understand we're the
biggest employer, they don't understand
that there's potentially 350 job roles.
Wherever I'm in the country, from doing
any sort of school or college engagement,
we will be the biggest employer in
that city and, you know, I know that
young people wouldn't necessarily even
think of us if they wanted a degree
in data or cyber security or finance,
you know, there's a lot more to us
than just kind of doctors and nurses.
So I think, you know, it goes back to
that kind of early careers engagement and
planting the seeds and making sure that,
you know, young people can make informed
choices and understand that actually it
is a really great place to work and as
you say, you'll meet people from all walks
of life, you'll get to do interesting
things, whatever career you decide to do.
So yeah, I think we need to kind
of accentuate the positives and not
dwell on the negatives quite so much.
Yeah, I hear you, and I'm thinking,
I've talked about crystal balls,
which you don't have, I'm just going
to give you a miracle now as well.
If you were to wake up tomorrow
and a miracle had happened and the
shift was in place between attitude
of what was possible rather than
what was impossible within NHS
England, what would be different?
What would you see as transformative
change in terms of attracting
into the organisation and
really developing that talent?
I think government do have to
address the pay issue, I think that's
going to be a huge barrier when
you hear that, you know, baristas
can earn more than a junior doctor.
How is that going to attract anybody in?
People are wanting to do this because
they've got that urge to care and that's
what they want to do, but you do need to
be well rewarded for that and I just think
that, you know, accentuating that there is
career pathways, whatever stage you're at
in your career, you know, we could welcome
you as a, you know, career changer, as a
mum returning to work, you know, there's
no kind of age restrictions on anything
that you wanted to do within the NHS.
So, I think maybe kind of, you
know, focus on those positives.
But yeah, there is, I think there
is a lot to do around kind of just
rebuilding the positive image that,
you know, during the pandemic people,
you know, clapping on the streets and
things like that actually translate that
into wanting to come to work for us.
Yeah.
Okay, stop banging on saucepans
and come and work for us, okay.
That feels like a really interesting
place to sort of start to draw
our conversation to a close.
I guess if you were to think about the
advice now maybe that you might offer
somebody in a leadership role, whether
or not that's within NHS England, someone
perhaps in one of their first roles as
a team leader, in that place that you
and I both found ourselves in, where you
know, we've been promoted, we're suddenly
responsible for some other people doing
stuff that we did really well, what would
you say to them are really important
lessons to take forward with them in their
first few months and years as a leader?
An early manager said to
me, always lead by example.
So, and I think that's stuck with me,
that's one of the kinds of things I do
stand by, I wouldn't expect my team to
do something that I wasn't willing to
do, I think it's not being afraid to
roll your sleeves up and get stuck in
if needs be, making sure that your team
know that you are supported and that
your kind of door window, teams is always
open if they do need to speak to you.
But yeah, I think just integrity is
really, important and yeah, I think, as
I said, lead by example has done me well
so far and I think I would, you know,
definitely share that as words of wisdom.
Thank you, that sounds like great words
of wisdom to leave our conversation today.
Thank you so much for joining us, Lucy.
It's been an absolute joy talking to you
today, we appreciate your time, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening.
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