010 - We Welcome Daila

Jonathan welcomes Daila Duford as a new co-host of the show and talk about no-code and building products fast.

Show Notes

Caleb was unable to make it after feeling a bit under the weather. So we introduce Daila Duford as another host of the show. Caleb is still going to be a host, he hasn't been replaced.

We talk about how Daila and the Little Robot team was able to build one of the features for the new property management software in just an afternoon. We also discuss what no-code is and why we are excited about if for new products.

[01:24] Feedback from a listener, we don't have an audience.
[02:39] Building some initial property management features
[05:00] What is Figma and Bubble
[07:02] What is Little Robot
[10:23] Failing faster
[14:58] Back to property management

The Product: OpenHouse.social

Newsletter: factory.twostoryrobot.com

Twitter: @twostoryrobot

Instagram: @therobotfactorypod

The Product: OpenHouse.social

Newsletter: factory.twostoryrobot.com

Twitter: @twostoryrobot

Instagram: @therobotfactorypod

Follow Jonathan: @thejonotron

Follow Caleb: @calebissharp

Creators & Guests

Host

Daila Duford

No-code developer at Two Story Robot

Host

Jonathan Bowers (he/him)

Founder of Two Story Robot. Developer turned entrepreneur.

What is The Robot Factory?

Follow along as we attempt to build and sell a SaaS company. A build in public behind the scenes journey of a small software agency, Two Story Robot, trying something new.

Jonathan: All you need to do
is, uh, avoid clicking your pen.

Daila: Ah, dang it.

what am I gonna do with
my nervous fingers,

Jonathan: sit on them.

Daila: Yeah,

Jonathan: Welcome back to the
robot factory, a podcast where we

record ourselves, trying to build
software and see if we can sell it.

Um, we're maybe switching gears a little
bit because we are gonna, try and build

some property management software.

I'm one of your hosts, Jonathan Bowers.

And not with me as
always is Caleb Sharp.

Unfortunately, he thinks
he's being replaced.

Um, turns out, uh, he got
sick and can't attend today.

So we have with us a new, I don't wanna
say guest, because I think you're probably

gonna be a regular on the podcast.

Daila Duford, introduce yourself Daila.

Daila: Hey, I'm Daila I pronounce
it Duford but that's okay.

My, the rest of my.

So my sister pronounces it,
DuFord, cuz it's her last name too?

You anyways, long story.

I'm Daila Duford I work with Jonathan
and Caleb and I am the no-code division.

So I think we're gonna
be talking about no code.

I hope cuz I cannot talk about code
because I don't know very much about it.

Jonathan: That's and that's fine.

Uh, I got some feedback.

I, I talked with somebody
who listens to the podcast.

He's a fan.

I'm gonna say he's a fan.

I'm gonna say he's
probably our biggest fan.

Um, hi Lincoln.

Um, and he, he said he often, or
he rarely yells at the podcast,

but he was yelling at our podcast

Daila: why?

Jonathan: he, because we can't
figure out who our audience is.

Daila: Oh,

Jonathan: Sometimes we're talking
a little bit detailed about coding

stuff, and sometimes we're talking
directly to our moms, not my mom.

She's not listening.

Um, I told him, yeah, we don't
know who the audience is yet,

but I don't think it's developer.

So we probably aren't gonna talk
too much about development stuff.

Daila: that's good.

Cuz I can't, I could, although I'd
just like to say I've learned a

lot by listening to this podcast

Jonathan: oh, have

Daila: about development.

Well, I mean, I don't know if I've
learned, understanding and learning

is different things, but I like
listening to Caleb talking about

the, the, the one I liked was.

like naked Chrome or
something like that or

Jonathan: Headless, headless

Daila: headless Chrome, that's it.

Yeah.

And, uh, so yeah, I don't know.

It just, it makes me feel smarter.

when I listen to you guys,
like I'm kind of understanding,

Jonathan: well, thank you for
that, those kind comments Daila.

That's very kind.

You haven't heard the episode that's
coming out, but I've got another

episode to release yet where Caleb
and I kind of talk about, um, Diala

you and Amber and Steve iterating on.

one little feature, uh, and
then sh and then I shipped it

off and showed it to Brendan.

He got back to me since, um, but
yeah, we just, I, I wanna talk a

little bit about that whole thing.

Tell, tell me a little bit about
like that experience on Friday

or whatever day it was, you were

Daila: Yeah on our,

Jonathan: building this stuff,

Daila: our development,
sprint as our mini sprint,

Jonathan: a mini sprint.

How long was it?

How, how long did you

Daila: it was like an hour and a half.

which was, it was nice.

And we were all in the same
room, which was fantastic.

but I should probably explain
it before I explain what we did.

So you, Johnny B came to us you
talked to Brendan and said, Hey,

there's an issue out there with,
uh, property management and rent.

So, uh, rent payments, people being
able to pay their rent and property,

manage managers, being able.

manage it, I guess, um, or receive the
payments and you threw out a couple

ideas, which were awesome about like E
transfers and tracking them automatically.

So Little Robot was meeting at my
house and we have been chatting about

doing mini sprints to build things.

And we were like, Hey, let's build this
thing that Jonathan was talking about.

So Steve did a very quick design in
Figma and made it look really pretty.

We dropped that design into Bubble,
which we'll probably talk about

Bubble at some point and what it is,
but it's our main tool that we use.

Um, and then I turned that into
the actual front end design.

And while I was doing that, Amber was
building the backend and, uh, connection

through Make previously Integromat
that will look at somebody's email,

see if an e-transfer comes through
and then tell the app in Bubble that

an email had come through how much
it's for and all of that fun stuff.

So we built that and, uh, it's a super
simple interface that just shows who

owes money who's paid and who needs to.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Daila: yeah, so we, we built that.

Jonathan: tell, people what
Figma is and what bubble is.

Daila: Yes.

Okay.

So Figma is a design program and Steve,
our designer, he we've discovered

how he can build in Figma, uh, all
the designs and make it look exactly.

How we want it to look, uh, in
this program and then Bubble,

which is a no code tool.

Um, I don't know, do these people
know about no code, maybe, maybe not.

Jonathan: who are these people,

Daila: Who are these people?

We're, we're casting a wide net.

So if you don't know what no code
is, no code is for people like me who

don't know how to code at all, but
want to build applications so I can.

Using Bubble do like drag
and drop items in there.

I want an input.

I want a button and then I can tell
it what to do in language that I

understand, like, like words, not
little dashes and dots and stuff.

So I will tell it

Jonathan: da we don't use dashes and

Daila: do you not ones and zeros?

I dunno.

Jonathan: We program in Morse code.

Beep

Daila: Yeah.

exactly.

See, I know exactly what you said.

No.

Um, so, and then I just tell, like, I
can tell it, in words, when you push

this button, make this happen, do say
that this person has paid, their rent.

So that that's what bubble is anyway.

So we figured out how to
take from Figma, a design.

Drop it into Bubble, which skips
the entire me having to pretend

that I know what I'm designing
because I have zero eye for design.

So Steve can drop it in.

I can just quickly take it, turn
it into all of the components,

um, that make up an app.

And then you just connect it
using little drag and drop blocks.

Jonathan: Yeah.

I think that's a good

Daila: yeah, so that's what it is.

That's what we do.

And, and it can get like really complex.

Which is exciting.

Jonathan: Yeah.

I mean, well, talk a little
bit about what Little Robot is.

Daila: Little Robot is a
division of Two Story Robot.

And we, um, I mean, I guess it
started out as the people who were

the non-developers on the team.

Um, Paige and I started out building,
oh, how I, I gotta step it way back.

I had no idea what no code was
until you Jonathan said, Hey.

Have you ever seen Coda?

Coda is another no code tool.

That's like really fun spreadsheety stuff.

Um, which I love spreadsheets.

And you explained, okay,
this is what no code is.

You can make this do things that apps do.

and that was my introduction to no
code because we built something in

Coda uh, so anyways, little robot,
we build apps really, really quickly,

in usually bubble sometimes Coda.

I don't know.

How do you explain Little Robot?

We are like just a, a
really fast development team

I don't know.

How would you explain Little Robot?

Jonathan: was, I was just curious
to get your thoughts on it.

One of the things that, uh, we do at Two
Story Robot is full stack app development.

We've got lots of clients that build
like really big, really big projects,

um, mobile apps, uh, complicated
web apps, um, all sorts of things.

And that process.

Works really well at a certain
scale, but it doesn't, it, it can't

produce things really quickly.

Daila: Mm-hmm

Jonathan: Um, and it's a little
bit expensive and so little robot

goes after early stage stuff where
people aren't necessarily clear on

what it is that they want to build.

And so we can move a lot
quicker with no code, um, just

because of the nature of it.

It's so fast, we can build
stuff really quickly.

and so it allows us to work with
companies that maybe don't have quite

as big a budget for some of the, some
of the other services that we provide.

and it's really fun cuz uh, it allows
us, I, I think the, the value, the value

in what Little Robot is doing is that
we can get to traction with less risk.

so the idea being that we can try
to get to revenue faster than we

can with, um, any other approach.

it may not scale it's, uh, it's
likely that it, you know, won't scale.

To a massive, massive, product,
but it's something that we can

get customers on really quickly,
really early start validating fast.

and trying to understand if
this is something that people

should continue investing in.

Daila: Yes, that,

that's what I meant to say

when I was explaining little
robot was exactly that.

Yep.

That's exactly what little robot.

Jonathan: I, I love it because one,
it, it allows for people who like

yourself, who are not developers.

Can go in and start making stuff.

Um, which is good because
sometimes we get stuck.

Like sometimes our developer
brains get stuck thinking about

things in a particular way, and
you are UN, um, unburdened by

that way of thinking sometimes.

And you're like, why don't
we just try it like this?

And, um, you know, try it, try doing,
doing it a completely different way.

And that, that way ends up
being easier and faster.

Uh, and ultimately.

People using these tools, they
don't care how it's built.

They just want it to work.

Daila: the, the nice part about
no-code too that I've discovered is

I can build it wrong very quickly
and fix it very, very quickly.

So like you said, I can, I may not
know what I'm doing, but I can, I

can try something really fast and
it's extremely easy to change it

Jonathan: Yeah, I like that.

That's a, that's a good
way of phrasing it.

Fail fast.

Right?

How do you, how do you try to get
to the failure quick, more quickly?

Because it would be a shame to spend
a lot of time at something only then

to realize that it doesn't work.

Um, it's much better.

to Sort out the failure sooner.

Daila: Yes, I I'm learning that
very quickly too, but, and it's

great because I can because I don't
have a, a development background.

a lot of it is, is very new to me,
the way to think about, especially

like workflows, stuff like that.

So doing it wrong at the beginning,
and then, uh, being able to fix

it has taught me a whole lot.

Jonathan: So we tried this once before.

we've been doing this fail first fail,
fast thing for a while, but we've,

we've been trying to do it even harder.

even more, even faster, a
little bit more recently.

um, an old.

Old colleague of mine, uh, brought
a, brought a project forward and

said, Hey, can you help help me
understand if we can do this?

I says, I think we can build this
in bubble and in no code and, um,

walk through how we approach that.

Daila: Yeah, with that one, that, that
was very fun because it was starting

from complete scratch basically.

And just with an idea, so that that
person had come to you and told

you what they were looking for.

And with very little information,
um, that I think he had written

down and passed on to you, that
you told me we were able to build.

And that one only took about
three, three to four hours.

Jonathan: Well, not even that, like
we did, we took, we took a first pass.

That

Daila: oh, yeah, that's right.

We took the first, the
first pass, which was you.

And I did it really, really quickly.

I was showing you how bubble worked.

Um, and that, that only took
a little bit over an hour.

And in that we built, I mean,
a functioning albeit very basic

start to finish solution for
exactly what he had had asked for.

Um, that, I mean, it didn't
check all their boxes, but.

Checked enough of them that, I mean,
they could have used what we built

that quickly to solve their problem.

So then you, Yeah, so we did it that way.

You sent it back to, to them.

And I mean, I think it stirred
some interest pretty quickly.

That we could solve what they needed.

So they came back and said, okay,
well, can it do this and this and this

and this and two or three more hours.

And we were able to build
those, uh, features onto it.

And then I think we're on the third
pass now, um, where they sent it back

and did quite a bit more thorough of a
breakdown and added features onto it.

And I think I did another
four hours on that one.

And.

Um, yeah, we, we pass it off to a minute.

It's basically checked everything so far,

Jonathan: Yeah.

I'm really excited to take this
approach with this property management

thing is I want to move, um, really
quickly, mainly because I just don't

wanna sink a bunch of time into it.

Um, it's not so much that I think
we need to move fast because

it's a fast moving market.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

I just think it's a way that we.

Explore building this product
that doesn't cost a lot of time.

Um, doesn't sink, you know, doesn't
sink a lot of resources or money

into, into something that we're
not, we're not really sure about.

yeah.

Daila: I like that too, because
I mean, we've got a lot of, uh,

little robot has a lot of plans of
things we'd like to try and build.

And so this was our first test because,
um, Amber is so new to Little Robot.

This was our first, everybody get
together and let's see what we can do.

Trial.

I mean, we Amber's only been with us
for a couple weeks and we were able

to build something in an hour and
a half, which gives me so much hope

for all of these ideas that we have.

we're planning on, uh, on doing these
sprints quite regularly to build out

stuff and then talk about it here
so people can hear what we're doing.

And, and we're just like
refining our process doing

that, which is very exciting as.

Jonathan: That's super

Daila: I like it.

Jonathan: Um, back let's, let's bring
it back a little bit to the property

management thing specifically.

so Brendan sent some sketches
this morning and they're awesome.

They're so great.

Um, he's got some ideas around
monetization and some really nice.

Just feature descriptions, which are very,
I think, very difficult to explain in an

email or even to tell someone it's, it's
just so nice to get a sketch from someone,

um, that has some thought, even if it's
rough and this is, this is rough, it's

just black and white, it's hand drawn.

It's a, like, a scan of some
sketches that he drew and it's,

it's got a lot of sweet ideas in it.

So I took a stab at
building some of it in Coda.

So I've.

the, the payment tracking piece
already in Coda, um, like the

backend, like what, what, what a, a
property manager would go and look at.

Um, I didn't tie it into anything that
you were building it's ma it's mainly

just so I can experiment with some of
the workflow of, of how someone might

use the different screens and stuff.

Um, but, uh, yeah, like what are
your, give me, gimme some of your

thoughts on, some reactions to the
sketches that Brendan sent over.

Daila: Yeah.

I mean, I looked at them really
quickly before this, um, They

were very exciting to me too.

I love being able to visually see things.

I mean, notes are great,
but sketches they're there.

You know, what, what that
person is seeing in their head.

Um, I mean, I wanted to
jump in and just start

Jonathan: start

Daila: building it

Jonathan: well,

Daila: then I remembered I have all these
other things that you're paying me to do.

So I should probably
probably work on those.

Ah, just so, I mean, we, we built
such a little skeleton, um, beginning

here and we had to try really
hard to keep it very skeleton.

That was one thing that, uh, was, was fun.

And a lot of discussion around my table
here of maybe we don't need to quite

get as complex about this and that, but
now I see what, what, what he has made

notes of and we can get more complex.

Jonathan: Yeah.

And this is like, this is why I'm so
excited about this, about this process

is, and, and using no code to, to deliver
these, this kind of value is that we

can get this feedback really quickly.

Like we sent, you did this on a Friday.

I sent it off to him, just last week.

So he's only had about four day,
four or five days to, to look at it.

Uh, and then he sent these sketches back.

We probably could have got
the sketches sooner, honestly.

The, the demo that I sent didn't
unlock a whole lot of new thinking.

I don't think for 'em.

So, um, but there's lots of opportunity
to just get this feedback really quick.

And I'm really excited about that.

So I know you were like tempted
to just jump in and start

building this thing based on the,
based on the screenshots alone.

Like, just look at the screenshots.

What kind of a timeframe
in terms of effort?

Like how much do you, how, how much
time do you think it's gonna take to

build, to build what you see here?

Just the like features of, uh, that
homepage, um, collecting rent past

due, um, payments, uh, sending emails
and reminders, um, that kind of stuff.

Give me a

Daila: Yeah.

I mean, so looking at this, um, a
whole bunch of this is we've already.

Had already kind of been
thinking about when, when Amber

built the, like the back end.

So that makes like Amber is
a pro at relationships in the

back end of, uh, of these apps.

So when I look at this, it's already
set up to do a whole bunch of this.

Um, so a time, if, if the entire little
robot team could sit down again together,

Um, we could do this in, I don't know,
all of us, all three of us working.

This could be probably, I don't
know, two and a half, three hours,

Jonathan: What?

Daila: something with three
of us with three of us.

Jonathan: Okay.

Daila: So that's like most
like if I was doing it myself.

Yeah, it would be, it would be a couple,
couple days, but I, um, it would be a

couple days to do what I'm seeing here,
but I don't know once Amber jumps.

It just moves things so
quickly on that part of it.

And then Steve dropping his designs in, if
I have to design this, we're talking way

too long, but that's why we have Steve.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Daila: Um, no, it could, we
could sit down and, and knock

this out and collaboratively

Jonathan: Okay.

We don't, we don't, we can't, I don't
think we can allocate that kind of time.

We've got all these other

Daila: we can't that's

Jonathan: for, um, our priorities.

But, um, I do think that we can
spend, you know, some Fridays, Friday

afternoons, uh, attacking this.

Um, I still want to chat with Brendan
some more and understand the customers.

I'm excited that it's something
that we can, we can sort of

hammer out pretty quickly.

Daila: I was so super impressed
with how our first sprint went.

So, I mean, I always underestimate, I
think in time a little bit, but I'm,

I don't think I'm underestimating the.

as a group.

Jonathan: what's the next thing
that you think we could do?

So right now, like what it, what
it does now, isn't super useful.

Because it like, there's no,
there's no way to actually use it.

It's just demonstrating a single feature.

So that's not really a product.

Um, but what do you think could we could
do next so that we can start shaping

this up so that it is, it is something
that could be used or at least something

that we can start, um, creating some
videos around and showing some people and

getting some feedback on, um, like even
that feature alone, like, I think it's

helpful to share with Brendan because
he understands he's got all the context.

Um, so I can show him.

But I can't show that to
a prospective customer.

Daila: no,

Jonathan: Um, what do you
think we could start with?

Like, what can we.

Daila: so I would start right at
the beginning with the, I mean,

I'm inspired by his sketches here
too, but that first page that

they would see, um, and then beca

Jonathan: just gonna describe this, but
like the first page is, is basically

like it's a dashboard that shows,
um, how essentially how much rent

has been collected in the past month.

And.

Just some, just some overall
statistics about the property.

So for example, 15 out of 18 units are
occupied and X number of dollars has been

received for the month of July, out of
a total number of Y number of dollars.

Right?

So some basic stuff like that.

Um, so you would start there.

Daila: I think I'd.

There and I mean, that's partly
just because I think that's how my

brain works to organize it, but I
can see where the features that we

already built would tie into this.

Um, I mean, up at the top, they've
got the past due the rent roll,

stuff like that, which would link
to the features that we, we built.

Um, so that, that connection right there
just makes sense to me to, to build.

And I think if it makes sense to me,
then it would make sense to somebody.

Who's just looking at it.

Not from a developer mind.

Jonathan: I think the rent collection
piece is, is a shippable product.

Like that's a, that's a
product that can exist.

Just that single feature, just like it
needs a little bit more to it, but the

ability to, um, notify tenants of rent due
and collect it in a way that's a little

bit more automatic than what they're
currently doing, I think is something that

can be, can be turned into a product, all
the other stuff around, he's got some,

some accounting related things and some.

inquiries, right?

Maintenance requests like that kind
of stuff I think could come later.

Um, but the, the rent collection bit,
which ultimately I think is the hard

thing to do, uh, that we could, that feels
like a feature that we could start with.

Daila: Yeah, I agree.

That's why I always like talking to
you cuz you always help me scale back

Jonathan: Oh,

Daila: Um, what makes
the most sense, but yeah.

Um, a hundred percent that would,
it would already, it would just be

an add on to the features we built,
except we do have to build some.

something that makes sense to get
to the features that we build.

Jonathan: cuz right now it's just a
page you go to and it doesn't like

Daila: yeah, it makes no sense
of who, who are these people

and what, what do they do?

Um, and then, yeah, we, we've kind
of built the stepping stones to

go into these, these next, like
the sending emails to tell them

rent is due and stuff like that.

It's already there, but
we haven't built that out.

So that makes a lot of sense to
just hop to the next stepping.

Jonathan: Cool.

Okay.

is this planned, are you gonna
do any more work on this on

Friday or whenever your next?

Daila: Uh, probably not this Friday cuz
the whole back to school thing, but yes,

starting next week, once kids are settled
in, um, because I think everybody on

the little robot team has kids, so we're
just gonna get, get that into a routine

and then yes, we're gonna hit it hard.

Jonathan: That's exciting.

Well, I can't wait to check in
hopefully next week Caleb is back.

Um, I hope

Daila: Yeah, I hope so

Thanks for listening to the robot factory.

I am Daila and have been Daila throughout
this, and this was Jonathan Bowers.

Um,

Jonathan: Daila sometimes
calls me Johnny B.

Um

Daila: always call you Johnny B.

You've

Jonathan: have you listened to, have you
listened to that new music that Caleb add?

Daila: He made that with his,

Jonathan: He made that with his computer.

Daila: little buttons.

That's incredible.