Truth is The First Casualty of War / Tucker Carlson and Douglas Wilson

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Welcome to the All of Christ for All of Life podcast brought to you by Canon Plus. This week's episode is a special episode of Doug Wilson's Man Rampant with guest Tucker Carlson. Watch every season of Man Rampant now on Canon Plus. Welcome to Man Rampant. My name is Douglas Wilson. Today's interviews with Tucker Carlson, with whom we remain friends. We also know that many of you who follow our ministry also like and appreciate the impact he has had over the years. At the same time it does appear to many that in some areas and on some topics he is developed a case of the serious wobbles. This situation is somewhat complicated because many of the traditional conservatives who criticize him on his role or his law, for example, have themselves made their piece with a burger fill and in a way that Tucker is not. They have their wobbles too, but they are more respectable wobbles, the kind accepted by conservative ink. In the interview that follows, you should note several things going on within the context of our continued friendship with Tucker. One would be our belief that he's being really naive when it comes to understanding the threat that his law imposed us to the West. That would be one thing and not insignificant. When you go to a place like Abu Dhabi or Riyadh, like, oh man, I hope we don't ever wind up with society like this. With a rape rate of zero, where you leave your keys in your Lamborghini and don't ever worry about a pink stone. And another one, less obvious in the interview, but still there, would be his naivete about the disingenuous toxicity of figures like Nick Fuentes. Tucker saw very clearly how Pierce Morgan was played by Fuentes while not seeing that there's more than one way to be played by Fuentes. And so with your permission, I would like to finish out this monologue with a bit of applied theology. It may look like I'm changing the subject, but I don't think I am. I want to make a point about the Jews that is running in the background, whether we are talking about Islam or haters like Fuentes. It's actually running in the background all the time. God called Abraham out of the earth the Caldees and promised him that his descendants would be a people set apart. His purpose in setting them apart in this way was the salvation of the world. Israel was a nation consecrated by God, and the intention behind this consecration was the salvation of the world. This consecration of the children of Abraham is one of the deep historical structures of the world. It cannot be made to go away. At the same time, there's no salvation without the shedding of blood. There must be sacrifice. There must be escape goat. The entire Mosaic apparatus pointed to this. So when the promise seed came, the wisdom of God was revealed in a gibboned wisdom, the fulfillment of all the prophets. Curses everyone who has hanged on a tree. And so Christ became a curse for us, doing so as the true Israel. Christ who Nino sin became sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. He was assigned to be that victim, the one appointed to die. He was the one portrayed in the Iseanic vision, the one who was to be stricken, smitten, and afflicted. The Jews believed in him, but to their everlasting sorrow many others did not. And the ruling elites of Israel not only did not believe in him, but they were the ones who instigated his crucifixion, calling for it, demanding it. This left the unbelieving Jews as a messianic people, but now without a Messiah. The deep historical structures remained, however. They were to be the salvation people. They were appointed to be the salvation people, which required escape goat, a victim. They were the location where this had to happen. And if the message that it had happened, once for all, was rejected by them, it still had to happen. And this helps to explain why unbelieving Gentiles, those who reject Christ also, have turned to the Jews, turned on the Jews again and again. This is the place where it happens to thinking goes. It must be the place. Ironically, all of them, persecutors and victims together, are guilty of the same Christless error. And through being half-right, they are all the more wrong. So the lightning must strike the house of Abraham, because they are the salvation people. As Jesus told the Samaritan woman, salvation is of the Jews. But what happens when you will not have that lightning rod? Discussions like this one with Tucker are better understood against this backdrop and framing. It brings many things into focus. All in Gerard, man. Tucker, welcome to Man Rampant. Good to have you. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I want to walk through a series of questions with you. And there are such important questions I wrote them down. It's over the mean ones, if you wanted. Well, I don't know. They're all nice. So I wanted to ask you first about your intellectual pilgrimage. And by that, I mean religious, cultural, political. Where did you start? What did you grow up in? And where are you now? And how'd you get there? I mean, it's been a long journey. Be I'm not reflective enough. But in broad terms, I was born in 1969. And so I grew up in an intellectual world defined by the Cold War, the binary Soviet-American. And I grew up in an intellectually intense family. Very conservative family? Or conservative? Non-conformist. OK. I would say even radical non-conformist, actually. OK. In a way that would not be allowed now at all. But people with their absolutely their own views, not hateful views at all, humane views, decent views, but views that diverge quite sharply from the majority. And there was no sense that this was embarrassing at all, because it was a different country. But to the extent there was a framework, it was the Cold War. It was here you have the Soviet Union, which is both anti-markets and anti-Christianity, anti-god in the United States, which is its mirror image. And so it's not a hard contest in our family, both in our allegiance, but also literally was on one side because of my father work for the government involved in that. So in what sense were they different drummering? Well, I mean, they had all kind, my father, I say they, it was the world's smallest family, my dad, my brother and me. But my father was highly literate, hyper literate, and obsessed with books and reading and ideas. And his view of history was totally different from most people's view, from the conventional view, not in any kind of naughty disgraceful way, but just it's just not true. And so he was convinced, and I am as well convinced, that a lot of the people that we regard as villains are actually heroes and vice versa. And that in fact, history is a kind of continuous process. It's always being written to bolster whatever the current thing is. Right. Now, the reversal of villain and hero is a pretty safe thing, relatively safe, if you're talking about Richard III, right? If you're going to, if you're going to, if you're talking about Abraham Lincoln, which was my, my, two of my fathers, many interests were the American Indians and the Civil War. And he was strongly anti-slavery because he was, by temperamental libertarian, he's like, thought slavery was like the opposite of what he believed on every level. But he thought that Lincoln was an authoritarian because he suspended habeas corpus. And he was infuriated that no one mentioned that. A president can't just declare himself emperor. We don't have Caesar here. That's the whole point. And that bothered him. He thought the American Indians were so-and-most impressive as an indigenous people, the most impressive, very by tribe, but most impressive people ever, because they were so perfectly adapted to their environment, and he could go on for hours on this topic. But he thought that something important inside of them died in what was that. And like we should understand what a civilization is subdued, conquered, you know, moved as they all were, but also sort of gives up like what is, what is that? And so these are the kind of conversations that we have. So you grew up in that. And boy did I. And adapted to it. Is that the way you roll, too? Well, 100%. My father was the load star in our family. He was very much a patriarch, not authoritarian at all. In fact, he was so liberal in the way that he raised us like, go hitchhike. He was always like, go, well, hitchhike. You know, just why don't you hitchhike? You don't have a thumb? I mean, that was what he was like for sure, but he was just such a commanding figure and such a remarkable figure that of course I adopted his politics. And that's part of the reason that it took me so long to realize that a lot of the institutions I believed in were in fact acting against my values and were not what they claimed to be at all. So let me ask you about that. When did that shift begin? The things that you took for granted as part of the stable country you grew up in. When did it become unstable? Well it really began in December of 2003 when I went to Iraq and that was particularly resonant for me because I had just been advocating in the course of my job, which was hosting a debate show, which was one of the highest rated shows in television about the Iraq war. Should we or should we not? We went in that spring and I didn't get there till December. By the way, at my father's demand, he said to me at lunch, he's like, really you're not going to go see the Iraq war that you argued for? He actually said that to me. And I said, well, I've got a show. I've got kids. I've got all these children. He goes, all the journalists are there, but you're not there. Your journalist you claim? I mean, he really bullied me into going and I'm grateful that he did. And I just made a very simple observation, obvious observation, which is this is not going as I anticipated at all in the United States is not an effective colonial power, leaving aside the debate over whether it's worth being a colonial power. We are and we're not good at it. And I just had no idea. And that set off a chain reaction and the response that I got back once I got, once I returned back to Washington was so hostile. No one was interested in talking to me about why do you think that? I feel like you're a leftist. Well, not a leftist. Right. The only part of my world that has not changed from childhood to present is I think it's murder to kill a child in utero. I've always thought that and I've never changed and I think it more now actually. So I've not a liberal. I've never been a liberal, but they attacked me as a liberal because I doubted just the on the ground situation in Iraq. And that just set off a whole journey for me. So that journey, are you mid-Jerney or have you arrived at the termists? It depends how long I live. I mean, I hope that journey doesn't end because I think that your views should reflect reality and when the things that you see and experience and understand change, so should your views about them. In other words, if you advocate for something that doesn't work, you should admit it. That's a baseline requirement that I imposed on all four of my children. If I catch you doing something bad, the first thing we're going to do is admit that we did it. That's the first thing. And if you don't do that, then we can't ever be reconciled. So yeah, every time I advocate for something, I've advocate for so many dumb things. By my life, I would not have time to hear the whole list. But I want to be the man who admits it and who changes his views. So yeah, we're in the middle of this historic re-alignment of everything the post-war order is collapsing. I have no clue where it's going. I have instincts about it, but no idea. And so I'm sure my views will change completely. I hope so. So a lot of folks would say, and you can tell me if you think that this is an accurate assessment, a lot of folks would say that they've noticed a shift in your expressed views over the last couple of years. Is that, do you think that that's true? Oh, it's completely true. Completely kidding? Yes. And it's not that I've evolved. It's that I've taken like radical turns. Like what? Like what? Well, I've become more convinced than ever that the things I didn't like about the US government's behavior, these pointless wars, we're not simply sort of a silly thing that some people were arguing for and some against. They were like the whole point of the system. The main way that the system self-propeptuates expresses power in riches itself, like they're at the center of the story. I did not realize that. And I'm totally opposed to them. So you would say that endless wars is a feature of the current system, not a bug? It is the current system. It's the point of the current system. It is the point to improve life for Americans. Tell me how that's working. It's not. Every measurement is moving in the wrong direction. No, it is the point. And when do you think in American history that turn was taken? You know, it's the behavior of empires at a certain stage. So it's very recognizable as a phenomenon. I'm always so shocked because I love this country. It's my country that it's happening to us. When did that happen? I'm not sure. I mean, I trace the big change to 1945 in the dropping of atomic weapons on Japan. I think that that more than any other action by the US government changed this country on every level from its architecture to its attitudes to its religious expression and certainly to its politics. Everything about that. Well, let me ask you if you just a few questions. Not to go into the weeds there. And don't go crazy. I live in the weeds. I'm trying to. Yeah. Well, I visit the weeds occasionally. So Curtis Lemay had destroyed like 75% of Tokyo. Oh, I'm aware. With conventional bombs, fire bombs, fire bombs, napalm. And the Japanese had paper houses and you can make a conflagration that way. Had we not dropped the two nukes, atomic weapons. Curtis Lemay had thousands of bombers and was ready to do that to all of Japan. Is there something more horrific about an atomic death than an old-fashioned conventional weapons death? There is, well, strictly speaking, no. I think there is something different about nuclear weapons. On many levels, that's a whole another conversation. We should do another show. But... Deal. Okay, so there's that. But no, of course not. Here's the distinct, here's the meaningful part of it. Okay. Yeah, why is that a watershed? Because the public understood that it happened and there was never a moment where collectively as a country, including me, I actually did shows on dropping the bomb and defended it. I mean, there was a whole controversy in the 90s, early 2000s, many years ago, 25 years ago about whether the Smithsonian was apologizing for dropping the bombs. That man and little boy, and I took, of course, the Shut Up Liberal side. And I still feel like Shut Up Liberal. I mean, you know, that's my instinct, of course. But there was never a moment where he said, look, you can really divide countries and people into two groups, those who are happy to kill innocence and those who try their best not to. Right. And those who, when they do, apologize for it and acknowledge that that's wrong. You can't kill innocence, period. Or else, how are you better? You're not. You're not going to go to war without going to war with a nation. Right. No, you don't have to, you're not supposed to kill innocence in some person. No, in the Augustine's just worth theory says you don't make war on civilians to terrorize a populace is terrorism. Right. Well, that's what we did. Well, I think that's what we did at Dresden. Okay. But with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we leafletted the cities with pamphlets, dropped from the air, get out, get out, get out. We only had two bombs. We weren't sure they were going to work. And the Japanese didn't surrender. At first, I'm not defending the decision. I'm just saying, I used to be totally against those two bombs. And I've come to the point where I think, oh, it's more complicated than I used to think. Well, everything is more complicated for sure. And I'm not attacking the men who made the decision. I've seen a lot of decisions. Some of them not public where bad things happen, but out of good motives. Right. Not a bad thing, not a good motive. So I get it. I'm merely saying, with 80 years of time to think about it, I think we should just restate the principle that killing innocent people is wrong. Yeah. Of course, it happens when it does, at the very least, you apologize for it and say that was wrong. What you don't do is say no problem, because it's a huge problem and you'll be judged for it. That's how I feel. Maybe Augustine doesn't agree with me. I think that. Well, think of it this way. There's no way in the Bible, when you besiege a city, right? The people running the city are the ones with the army, and all the food in the city is going to be used to feed the army, not the population, not the civilian population. It's lawful to besiege a city, but there's going to be that collateral damage, which can be used as a euphemism for killing civilians. You can make, I mean, besieging a city is a very dramatic set piece that is easy to envision and think of men standing behind the ramparts, making these calls. But that same principle could be used in your sort of daily life, by the way, with abortion. You know, I mean, this is going to wreck somebody's life, so it's collateral damage, or with the elderly. You can't afford this, or whatever. You could just imagine, once you start saying, which I think a lot of you are saying that just doesn't matter, how about we just start with it matters? It matters. Absolutely matters. Okay, I don't get that feeling from most people on my side. Not only do they think, and of course, all of this is an effort to defend what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza, which is totally indefensible as far as I'm concerned. And the more you know about it, the harder it becomes to defend. And basically, if you go down this path, you wind up in a place where you can't, how could you defend that? How about let the kids leave? No. Well, let food in, no. You have the most precise munitions in the world, but you're blowing up Christian churches and schools and hospitals. Tell me why you're doing that. If that conversation even begins, there's no way to win that debate. Now, you do know that first, targeting civilians and starving kids and doing all that stuff directly as a tactic would be terrorism, would be... This is terrorism. If the Israeli government is doing in Gaza, is terrorism and uncomfortable. So that's why there is such resistance to even discussing, like when is it okay to kill the innocent? How would you respond to the... It is sort of big if true. So how would you respond to those who say you're exactly right to make war on civilians would be awful. It would be horrific. But I think that that's a lie. I don't think we're doing that. And Israeli saying, I don't think we're doing that. Well, how about we let cameras in right now? And why aren't we doing that? And why have dozens of journalists been shot in Gaza wearing press credentials on their chests or on their helmets or in their cart? This is not making this up. But well... So, and the answer is because they don't want you to see what's actually happening. So let's just open it up and inspect it. But no one denies it. Tens of thousands of children have been killed in Gaza. It's just an absolute fact. I visited some of their surviving siblings last week. And I'm only saying, look, I spent two years not saying anything about it because I don't want to get involved in this fight because I know they're going to try to get my kids fired from their jobs, which they have. Call me an anti-Semite, of course. But at a certain point it's like, this is hurting the United States, which is paying for it, and which is using its credibility to defend it on the world stage. And it's like, how is this good for my country? It's not. And it's also rotted, completely rotted, the world that I live in, which is like conservative world. And all of a sudden people like it doesn't matter if the kids could kill it. Or they blow up two churches in Gaza. I'm a Christian. I have a right to think, I don't think it's good to blow up churches, okay? What do they have to do with it? Are these llamas too now? And all these Christian, Christian leaders are... Were there tunnels underneath? Were there tunnels underneath? They never claimed there were tunnels underneath. No, I'm just asking you. No, but it's like insane. And by the way, if there were tunnels underneath, sorry, you still can't blow up a Christian church when all your money is coming from a majority Christian country. Sorry, there are limits on what you can do. Okay. Tough luck. So, jumping back to Japan, if someone said, look, I'm sorry. I think the militaristic Japanese structure were evil wicked men. What they did to China was horrific. Fair, fair. I started the war. I hope that we take them all out. They're just scoundrels to the nth degree. And we should have spared the Japanese civilians. Okay. How did you do that? Hard to do that. But that's a... If someone said, I think that Hamas started a war that they couldn't finish. And Hamas is wicked. They're just awful people. And now the people in Gaza are paying for it. And I wish that Israel would figure out a way to kill everyone in Hamas without touching the civilians. Would you be much more comfortable with that? Of course. I mean, I think these are hard decisions. They're not hard for Israel. BBs Cabinet ministers are bragging about wanting to kill everybody. Every Palestinian is tainted by virtue of his DNA. That's not a Western view. Okay. And I'll spend every moment I have resisting that view because that's against the civilization that produced me. So I'm against it. However, it is super complicated. I know that there are people in the IDF. Certainly there are people in Masad who seem to be the most responsible people here, whatever, despite their bloodthirsty reputation. We're like, this is not good for us. We should not do this. But there are also Cabinet ministers openly celebrating it and saying, this is Amalak. This is our eternal enemy and their children will grow up to be terrorists and they almost die out loud. So I guess what I would settle for and thank God I don't have to make prickly decisions like who to bomb. It's hard. Right. What I would settle for is a public acknowledgement that it is wrong. It happens, but it is wrong to kill people who didn't do anything wrong. Or at least the sorry that you should not... How about it's just wrong? Our whole justice system is based on one idea. We punish the guilty as individuals. We don't punish groups. I don't get to kill your kids just because you committed capital murder. I don't round up your family. That's why we're different from the Soviets. That's why we're different from the whole East. Because we're Christian. We don't do that. And now we're like, well, yeah, it's so cool if we do that. If we have that attitude, we're going to see killing in this country that will be justified by the same rationale. Same metric. Okay, it changes the subject for... When you book various... Let's call them free spirits. Let's just call them free spirits. On your own. On your not- On your show. Yeah. Let me ask you a scale of one to ten. Scale of one to ten question. One, and the scale would be, this is not a mainstream view, but I think it deserves a hearing. And ten would be, this view is totally right. I believe it and you should too. So taking an average on your guess. Where would you place yourself? Does the fact that someone appears on your show is that a full-throwed endorsement of everything? If I full-throwedly endorse it, it is. Which I sometimes do often do. Like, you're great. Everyone should, you know. Okay, so if you say that openly. We said James Tours on the other day, who's an organic chemist, who made an incredibly beautiful case against the Darwinian understanding of why, if he's obviously a sincere Christian. And at the end, I was like, man, I hope. Where can people find out more? So that's a full-throwed endorsement. That's a tab. Right? But are there people that you think, this is not my view, but I think it's worth talking about. So the question is, are you trying to move the overton window or are you trying to expand the overton window? I mean, I'm not a genius. So the truth is I operate by instinct most of the time. But I have a commitment to free speech, which grows out of my understanding of like the human soul. So I'm committed to that. And I have an attraction to things that you're not allowed to talk about because my first instinct is why you're not allowed to talk about that. And if it's your sex life, I get it because it's too personal. And I don't want to invade your privacy because I'm the one person who's totally in privacy. But if it's a public policy question, like how much influence over our government is Israel have, then I can promise you I'm going to do a show on that. Because I'm a free man in a free country and I plan to exercise that freedom until they prevent me from doing it. So if you're asking which I know you are about Fuentes, my view of Fuentes was a lot of things he says are from my perspective objectively true. Two things. White men have been systematically discriminated against in this country for my entire lifetime. And it's like crushed them. I agree. I stopped that. I agree with that too. And two, the Israeli government, since I've lived in DC for almost 40 years, has way too much influence over the operation of our government. It's like 90% of members of Congress take money from a foreign lobby. What? How is this good? They take money from everybody. Well, they it's but they I mean, APEC is I don't know of a stronger lobby. But it's a foreign lobby. OK, maybe you think that's great. I mean, some people say it's great. That's great. Tell me how it's great. Shut up, anti-Semite. So if you start, look, the tell for me is if someone will answer a question and instead calls you a name, that person either doesn't have an answer or he's trying to obscure the answer. And I am not intimidated by that because I'm too old. So I'm just going to keep going. So in the case of Fuentes, those are my two views. Then on the flip side, I had two things I wanted to say to him. The first was anti-Semitism is immoral. Not because it's unfashionable or the idiot else says it is immoral and care about that. It's immoral because all forms of hatred against people on the basis of their blood are immoral and it's just the point you made earlier. And I said that to him. And he agreed whether he actually agrees or not. I don't know. Well, he doesn't. But I'm not as good at divining motive, I guess. Well, I don't know. But he certainly said it and I backed him into saying it whatever. And the second thing is his views of the way men and women get along are just like tragic to me. But we are responsible for that. We've created society that makes it impossible for people to normal people to find a mate. But he's going on about how the fault is women and I wanted to make the point to him that that's depressing and not true. And to me to take away the biggest part of the interview, nothing to do with Israel or even discrimination against whites, it had to do with this totally diseased relationship between younger men and younger women. That's a national emergency and no one seems to care. Now the two things you said that Fuente says that are true, the discrimination against white men, Jeremy Carl wrote a magnificent book, The Unprotected Class, arguing that very point and went from the front cover to the back cover without ever once tracking in what Nick Fuente's tracks in. So it's like Nick Fuente's has got a good point on his left shoe. He stepped in dogdo and is right shoe. That's what you see that a lot. Probably with me too. I probably got views you agree with, views you think are insane. But there's a difference between views that you differ with and views that are toxic. Right. There's some sort of... So how do you handle those views? So that's really the question, that's the practical question. So I didn't create Nick Fuente's, obviously I didn't remember how Nick Fuente's. So he started attacking my dad. CIA officer, okay. Which enraged me. But I didn't know he was because I'm 56 and I don't like the internet. So like I didn't know. He became the single most influential ask your staff, the most influential podcast for a young man. Right. Correct. Why is that? Well part of it's because he's saying true things in my opinion. He's funny. He's really good at TV. Part of it is he's so forbidden that people seek him out like pornography. So my view was bring him out, let him talk. The couple things I really want to say because I feel them so strongly. Anti-Semitism is wrong. If you're beating up on girls, that means you're not a real man. Those are my views. But otherwise just let him talk. Bring him into the light. Now, I was attacked for that because my job is to display my own moral virtue by saying, what you did is wrong in showing him clips. This is disgusting. You made fun of the Holocaust. Well, Pierce Morgan, who I like actually, not a genius, got roped into this to playing that role. Someone needs to scold this young man. Like he's never been scolded before. Nick Fuentes was canceled in college by Ben Shapiro freshman year, which is probably why he has the views he has. Nice job, Ben. But so he comes out there, Pierce Morgan's like, Ben Shapiro, how dare you? Brother, Nick Fuentes, how dare you? And Nick Fuentes laughs in his face, takes him apart, is hilarious, destroyed him. Because here's a 27 year old kid who's like, with it knows what's going on. Here's this older boomer lecturing him. The upshot of, if you watch my interview, you do not think Nick Fuentes was enhanced. No one actually watched it because they're calling me a Nazi because they don't like JD Vance, so they don't want him to be the Republican nominee. That's what it's actually about, of course. But if you watch- It's like a water polo game. It's everything is going on underneath the truck. It's politics, dude. It's sinister. It's the Ottoman court. But if you watch the Pierce Morgan interview, you're like, Pierce Morgan doesn't even know, you know, as asked from his elbow. And here's this, Nick Fuentes just like laughing in his face, he's hilarious. And you're like, is he diminished by this? No, he's greatly enhanced. So don't fall for it, Dumbo. That's what I would have said if Pierce had asked me, and I like it when friends appear as better, like don't do that. You're playing into his own game. Here's Dad showing up being like, why are you listening to that darn rock music? And the kids like, shut up, pop, so you don't understand. You know what I mean? Like, who wins? Not Dad. This all comes back to footloose, you're saying. It's truly, it's Elvis on Ed Sullivan. Do we have to keep relearning the same lessons? OK. So if one of them... Back me up, gentlemen. Yeah, they're supposed to keep quiet. I'm looking at them for affirmation because they're all young men and I'm like, you go. The other second point you made before we go on to the next one is the... I think it's ludicrous. If someone says, I'm against dual citizenship, for example, in Israel and America. And I am against that. That doesn't make me anti-Semitic. Or if I think that you couldn't hold office if you're a dual citizen, because no. Or if I think that the Israeli lobby has too much influence, that doesn't make you anti-Semitic. I think the pharma lobby is too much, you know, influence. I'm not against Penicillin. Like, what are you even talking about? Yeah. And you can't... Basically, Israeli elections are close elections. Yeah. Right? And if you take a position that half of Israel's population holds. And votes that way. How can that be anti-Semitic? I'm surrounded by Jewish people who are friends of mine who agree with my views. So, like, you're never going to convince me that everything BB says is spoken on behalf of every Jewish person in the world. Like, that's just not true. Right. So, but do you agree that you alluded to the responsible heads in the Mossad? There are sane people on the pro-Israel side who would argue that Hamas is a bad deal. This is regrettable, but we have to clean out this nest. Of course. I mean, they're... And they're sane Americans and sane defenders of Israel in the United States who believe that. Right. I don't believe that. And what I believe is, again, we should start by saying and ask any of, you know, anybody who's out there trying to squelch criticism of Israel, ask, is it, like, regrettable, sad, maybe even immoral, to kill someone a child who did nothing wrong? And if you can't say that, then we're just operating from different worlds. I'm sorry. But why can't you say that? Why is that so threatening to say, probably not a good idea to kill a child? They will not say that. And they much less apologize for it. But isn't that an example of how everything is politicized? It's not politicized. It's pre-political. It's deeper. No, I'm not saying your point is politicized. I'm saying that people are afraid to say something. So for example, there's Bondi Beach massacre where the Muslim guy attacked the synagogue, the Honeka celebration in Australia. So if that horrific thing happens, they're not doing anything. They're not doing anything bad. And they lose their lives, children are killed and so forth. If I say I condemn that wholeheartedly and then someone over here says, that's just performative. You're just saying that to cater to the Jews. Or if... So, is that person becoming a monster? Maybe without even knowing it? So if... And that's the threat to all of us is becoming monsters without knowing it. Right. I tweeted that if you hear of an attack on a religious assembly where a bunch of innocents are killed and you need to know whether it was a church, a mosque or a synagogue before you know what to think of it, then you're a central part of the problem. I totally agree. I completely... I've... I infatically agree with you. Okay. Great. So what I worry about is the coarsening and of course famously the internet plays a huge role in this because you can look at snuff videos all day long if you want. They will play on a loop for you if you want. And that just hardens us inside, makes us worse people. But there's also this phenomenon in a political discourse that's not very different from watching snuff videos. And if you have people standing up, especially people with like authority and endorsing violence, which you have a lot, including from big figures on the right in the last two days from Mark Levin and Laura Lumer endorsing violence, like what, no. If you get into that loop, we're going to have... What do you want to buy violence there? Well yesterday Laura Lumer said we need more people like Marcona who is the convicted, twice convicted of bombing people, bragged about it. He was a convicted terrorist in the United States. And he was assassinated in 1990 because when you live by this road you tend to die by it. But she endorse, and she's like next minute, she's at the White House. It's like, I voted for Trump. I campaigned for Trump. I love Trump. It's not about Trump. It's about, do you want to live in a society where people casually endorse violence against innocence, like bombings or bombing campaigns or atomic bombs? Like, no. We should say, unequivocally, that's wrong. To which someone can say, well, we made a tough choice and a tough circumstance. Okay, let's talk about it. But if you can't even say it's wrong, and they will not. And Bench, I've made this point about the atomic bomb. And Bench, apparently out of nowhere attacks me. I don't care what Bench, apparently says, of course, I'm not bad at Bench, apparently. I just thought it was so interesting. It's like of all my dumb opinions, my opposition to incinerating children are dropping an atomic bomb onto a church, which they did in Nagasaki. They centered on a church. That was the Christian capital of Japan. Yeah. I just don't think it was an accident because I think almost all of our foreign policy winds up disproportionately murdering Christians. You saw it in Iraq. You're seeing it in Syria. You see it in the Levant. Sorry. You see it in the West Bank right now in Gaza. My bomb churches in Gaza, tell me, you've got the capacity to put bombs in people's pages, but you actually hit two churches? Not an accident. How about you ask for our forgiveness? I will just insert one thing here, not to get, even though I like occasionally visiting the weeds, I won't be there. It has been well said that the first casualty in war is the truth, right? Right. So propaganda, cameras, images are all weapons of war. We live in a media age and you just have to budget for the fact that what you just heard, what you read, may or may not be true, whether from the Israeli government or from... Well, in the case of what I just said, it's objectively true and admitted by the Israeli government. So, of course, I'm in the media since I was 22, and so I know that better than most. But what's the prophylactic against that or what's the cure of it? And the cure, of course, is more cameras, more angles, more perspectives. That's why censorship is always pushed by the people with the most power against those with the least. And it's a denial of the human soul, in my opinion. But anyway, so the answer is, rather than killing dozens of people with cameras, which they have done on purpose, because they don't want any images, they should be forced to show us what's there. And we can ever... Because by the way, it's all going to come out. There are two over... So, 2.2 million people in Gaza when this started three years ago. 2 and whatever years ago. And how many people are there now? Or the rest? At some point, we're going to know that. And we paid for that. And not only we paid for it, we defended it. Our entire diplomatic core has been employed for the last two years to defend what's happening in Gaza. So, it's done in my name. People say, oh, there's lots of bad stuff happening around the world. Well, I've actually been around the world, so I can confirm that. I've covered other wars that nothing do with Israel. What big chunk of Ukrainian population is in Poland? Of course. Oh, and in Switzerland, and I see them all the time, because I'm in Europe all the time. Of course. I get it. But this is the only instance where you were not allowed to note the obvious. I reserve my right to note the obvious, and I will do so on to death, because that is the core freedom that is. Like, I see it, and you're telling me it's not true. Tell me how that's not true. And it is true. And I just find it amazing that you will never meet a defender of Israel who will concede that it is a bad idea, or it is immoral, even conceptually to kill an innocent person. They won't say it. So, what does that say? And I don't care how afraid you are, how politicized you are, you have to be able to say that, or you've given up something really important. Yeah. Here's one difference. And I think it's a crucial difference. Hamas will target innocent civilians on purpose. Well, Israel has not allowed food aid into two million people. There's no infrastructure whatsoever. There's no business. They flattened 70 percent of it. We know that from satellite photos. And I'm like, so what is that? That's targeting innocent people. I'm not defending Hamas. I'm totally opposed to Hamas. I don't think BB should have sent them that much money, which he did. And it bids. But I'm against it. I'm against all of this stuff. Right. So, if you have two groups, Hamas saying, yeah, we did that. We blew up the pizza parlor and Tel Aviv. We claim responsibility for that. Well, October 7th is like enough of an atrocity to make me pretty anti-Hamas. Yeah. Okay, that's a good example. Yeah, we did it. We're proud of it. That was our... Yeah, I'm out. I'm never going to defend you. That's disgusting. On your... But that's not my point that you would defend it. I know you wouldn't. The point is that Israel is enough of a Western country to... If they did something bad like that, they would not own it. They would lie about it. They are virtuous enough to be guilty of hypocrisy. No, they're dependent on USAID enough to manipulate the US media, which they do. Their entire country is dependent on US taxpayer dollars, and the numbers are super clear. There would be no wars fought by Israel alone, because it's got 9 million people and no resources, and they have a reserve military. They don't have enough people. A huge chunk of their country doesn't work or serve in the military. So they are... I mean, they are. And there are a lot of good Israelis who I know. One of them is in the Knesset, who I just talked to. They're very worried that Israel is way overextended and why? Because they're backstopped by the US military. And so this is not my chief concern. My chief concern is my country. If you cared about Israel, man, they're in a bad spot right now. But no one can admit it. They all have to lie about everything. And the people who lie the most, can I say, are the evangelical preachers who go over there on an all expense paid vacation with a foreign government, and then come back and tell me that I'm an Islamist because I don't think that we should kill children. And then you ask them, did you do a lot of evangelizing in Israel? Because like your whole job is to tell people how Jesus did you do that a lot in Tel Aviv? Shut up anti-Semite. What? I thought we were on team Jesus here, which I am by the way. And I think evangelists should evangelize. And the one thing you care about is Jesus. They will not evangelize in Israel. And then they say, how great it is. How's that different from Iran? So this combines a couple of points I was going to ask you about. One of the most effective moments in your talk at Charlie's memorial was the point where you said, we all have to deal with that little hate compartment in our hearts. But then I heard you quoted, maybe saying how much you hated Jesus and Christian Zionism. And guess what? I did the next day. I went on TV and apologized for it for saying that because that was awful. And it was true. Which that's why it was awful. It was true reflection. I was starting to feel hate and you can't do that. And yeah, I mean, if you ever hear me, I want to be righteous. If you ever hear me being self-righteous, call me. I'm prone to it. And pomposity and overstatement and anger and all that stuff. My sins are like the most, not actually taking money from guitar. I am actually a bloward. Okay, so just to be clear about what my weaknesses are. And so I got totally overwrought. I'm so offended because if Israel does stuff that I despise, my view is, let's just, I don't want to pay for that. Okay. Get out of my country. Stop trying to censor me. And go to your own thing in your own Eastern country, which is not Western, sorry. And that's fine. But these are people who are like, I've always loved evangelicals because I'm pro-life. And like I've always defended them and I still love them. But there are some of their leaders. It seems like such a betrayal, not simply of the people they lead, but of Christianity. How can you do that? How can you do that? I'm so shocked that I let myself feel hatred. And that I should, my only defense is that was within the context of a point I was making, which is I'm so often slandered as an anti-Semite or Nazi. I couldn't be more anti-Nazi. And I couldn't be more opposed to anti-Semitism. But if there is something that I will confess in public about my heart, it's that like some of these preachers inspire in me, hate. Okay. And I think I said Christian Zionist, but it wasn't, I knew a million super nice Christian Zionists. I really well, I know something related to something. So I got it. Anyway, I'm sorry I said that. I don't say it again. All right. So with this, what you're talking about is probably the theology of dysmancy. But it did not mean the professionalism that has a prophetic role for Israel, that they believe that in 1948, that formation of Israel started the prophetic clock ticking again. And all the prophecies of the old testament are starting to come to pass in our generation. And they think it's all gearing up for the Battle of Armageddon that... And it's out of my league. Like, I'm not a theologian. I read the Bible a bunch. I don't know anything about theology. But I want to, but I know a lot about politics, and I find it hard to understand how a bunch of atheists from Poland creating a state with the help of the great powers in 1948 has anything to do with anybody's theology. Okay, atheists from Poland do it who like actively rejected all religions, including Judaism. That's just a fact, and it's easily ascertainable. So there's that, but the whole debate between, you know, dispensate, I never heard the term, by the way, until fairly recent. I didn't know what that was. I'm not from that world. Replacement theology, no clue. Don't want to learn. All I know is, I know, because you're literally a theologian in a preacher, but I'm just a podcaster, but what I do know is if you're telling me that there's, A, if there's some other way to get into heaven other than believing in Jesus, I don't find that in my New Testament. Okay. I just don't show me where it is. A, B, you cannot defend murdering Christians in the name of Jesus. And they've killed a lot of Christians. These really government has killed a lot of Christians. And that's just a fact, and they've admitted it, and this is an ongoing thing, you cannot blow up churches. You cannot send artillery shells into ancient crosses, which they have done in Lebanon, in Syria, in the West Bank, and in Gaza. And then if you don't believe me, how about you ask the Christians who live there? And I made this point at a pro-life speech, because I try to give a pro-life speech every year. And someone asked me, what is wrong? I was like, do you ever talk to the Christians there? Because I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East, not a church time, like a lot of time, months of my life. And I know a lot of Arab Christians. Have you talked to one? And they literally pulled me off the stage. The woman who organized it, if that came up, and escorted me off right at a time. And it's like, how can you, as a Christian leader in the United States, dismiss what your brothers in Christ in the West Bank, for example, or Gaza, for example, or East Jerusalem, for example, what they say. There is Lamas too? They're not. I know them. I think there's something truly shameful about that, because politics is taking precedent over people. And Jesus, that's my read of it. So when I talked to a Palestinian Christian in Bethlehem, interacted with him, and he said he was sort of the worst of both worlds. They've got their Christians not Jews, and their Christians not Muslims. And they are a decided minority. I think it's awful. Bethlehem especially is tough. But the conflict there is not caused by Israel holding the West Bank. Israel holds the West Bank because of the conflict. So when Israel was formed the next day or whatever it was, they were invaded. So a lot of what the Israel has. So the West Bank was taken by Israel in 1967 from Jordan. Right. Right. So Israel proper, the West Bank is what we call an Occupy Territory. Now they have a new name for it. They have a grizzly bearer by the years. Israel does. Definitely. A lot of Israelis used to say, like we've got Gaza, we've said, go on heights, and we've got what we call the West Bank. And those are what we call the Occupy Territories, our majority Arab, majority Muslim Arab, the tons of Christians, if you were now. But yeah, what do you do with that? You can't call yourself a democracy if they don't have full citizenship, but you can't give them full citizenship because then they'll vote you out. So what do you do? There is obviously much to, we could say and pursue this further, but I did want to touch on another couple of points. Of course. Of course. In the new media era that we're in, how can individuals out there, normies and grillers, let's call them, just regular people? Yeah. Distinguished between journalism, tabloid entertainment, Gaza, reckless speculating, muck breaking, click chasing, and outrage farming. You've got all these people, you know, not outrage farming. Holy smokes. Yeah. How do you tell, what would you tell people, what's the tell when they're looking at this and they're saying, oh, oh, to their wife, oh no, look what's happening now? Let me just make a semi defensive statement of truth. So I was in the mainstream media from August of 1991 until April of 2023. It's a long time, right? Over 30 years. And we had all of those things in abundance. And our main job in the mainstream media was to deny that any of that was true. Or it was like, no, I was just telling the facts. And it was all an op. It was all fake. I was there at the highest level. So I know that. I'm not guessing at all. And it still exists because people will always use media for political ends to improve power, to help their friends, to make money. I mean, there's all kind, you know, the human soul is a dark place, you know. So how does the average person discern between truth and lies? It's super hard. The first thing is, you know, get a variety of sources. But the main tools that you have you're born with, you're intuition. Does this person seem sincere? Sincerely is all that matters. I know people who are in my business who are often wrong. I'm often wrong. As the movie mogul said, sincerity is everything. When you can fake that, you've got it made. It's impossible though. It's in, you can't. It's like sexual attraction. It's just there or not. And people can, you can smell it. And I've said something wrong yesterday. Like big time wrong. You know, all I can say was I thought I was right. Turns out I was wrong. And I like to say, I always think I'm right. But I don't think I'm always right. But I always think I'm right. Exactly. That's me. So there's that smell sincerity. And number two, use common sense. Like four weeks, I'll give you a great example. When the right after the Ukraine war started, so the main natural gas pipeline into Western Europe was called Nord Stream, Nord Stream 2. And it was Russian gas. And a bunch of different American politicians, including Joe Biden, had said, if we were going to get the chance, we're going to blow that up in the largest active industrial terrorism ever. The largest man made CO2 emission event ever. But whatever, we're going to do this. So then it happens. And they tell us the New York Times, CNN, Fox News, where I worked, all told American news consumers Putin did this. OK. So I asked, why would Putin do that? Why would he blow up his own natural gas pipeline, hobble his own economy? And the answer I got was because he's that evil. He's so evil. He's run out of people to kill. He's committing self-harm. And that, for me, it turns out I was right. The US did it, which I knew day one. But everyone attacked me or tool of Putin. And I was like, no, no, I'm using common sense. What you're telling me doesn't make any sense. And I have a right to say that. So veering off. Let's veer. I love to veer. Let's veer. One of the tragedies of the Civil War was that you had classmates and friends from West Point facing each other on the field of battle. And we've got a conservative movement that's fishering right now. And you've made a point of saying that your friends with Erica, friends with Candace, and you want to stay out of that particular thing. At some point, it's like in an ethnic war, you don't have to choose sides. Somebody else is going to do that for you. At some point, do you think the conservative movement is going to be a movement five years from now, 10 years from now? Are we going to have three conservative movements? Are we going to have one? We're going to have a lot of division in it, actually. And we know that from the polling. So what is it? What does it stand for? What does it mean to be a conservative in 2025? People at different definitions, here's mine. That's one of my questions. Yeah, number one, you believe in America first. And that's not a scary concept. It's the only legitimate rationale for government in a Democratic Republic. And that's the government acts broadly speaking, tries to act on behalf of its own citizens first. And I exclusively, but first, because while I have the government, who owns the government, the citizens do. So there's no other defensible rationale for our government. That's the only one. And there's nothing creepy or fascistic about it. And again, it was the point of the government. We should restore that to reality. So America first. And all decisions about what government does should be evaluated against that. Does this help us first? And if it doesn't tell me how can we do this? That idea, which is the core idea of MAGA and Donald Trump's three campaigns for president, has overwhelming 90% support among Trump voters and still a majority among all voters. So that's not a division. That's almost unanimous. Well, there's a devil in the details thing here. So I agree with you. First, America should act in America's interest fundamentally. That's what the government's for. So that's the reason. And America first is not jingelistic, because I think that South Koreans should think South Korea first. Well, the America last people are the jingoists. Not me. You're not excited about a war with Venezuela, Iran, pick a war that Ben Shapiro loves. I'm against all of them. I'm the opposite of jingoistic, actually, because I believe that my country is the most important. And I want to fix it. So the Mr. America first would be Donald Trump. And there are things that he does, like slashing regulations on businesses, that I think really are America first. That is going to bless Americans. It's going to bless American business. It's going to yay, go team, go team, go. Teriffs, I think the jury's still out on tariffs could be an economic thing, or they could be a negotiating tool, or they could be so complicated that it winds up hurting Americans to this list. All right. So it's a complicated thing. But Donald Trump is going to defend tariffs under the mantle of America first. And someone could oppose Donald Trump. And I'm not taking this position. But he could oppose Donald Trump on tariffs, because he too is America first. Of course. So that's where the political debate comes. Well, that's where it always has been. But I think it's being forced now, because of the debate that's been ongoing for the last couple of months, to the bedrock principle. And so of course, those are good faith arguments. They're incredibly complex. I'm writing a short way stand on some of these things. So I absolutely, that's been the state of play for a long time. But because no one was allowed, and I mean, you lose your job for being like, what is this? The conversation I had was say Ted Cruz this summer, that had never been had with any US Senator ever before. Is it one about Israel? It was like super obvious questions. What is this? It's a foreign lobby. It's not a foreign lobby. Then what is it? Is it America lobby? Is it for sending money to America? I don't think it is. I mean, it was like, so the reason that he didn't have an answer is because no one had ever asked the question. These are big questions. And they're big questions, because we almost had a regime change war with Iran that month. So now we're basically just overturning the last stone. There's a lot of critters under it. They'll scurry away. But all debates should begin with that question. How does this help America? Because there's no other reason of a government. That's it. That's all I'm asking. And I don't expect people to agree with my solutions. I don't even know what the solutions are in a lot of ways. The strike on Iran could be argued for on America first principles. I never heard any. I attempted to do that. And they immediately called me and I say, semi, and they're still doing it. So when you're in that way, what how? No, I'm the I tend to have a debate. Like how is this? How is this in our interest? The guy just got inaugurated. I was there on January 20th. And days later, the head of a foreign country's in his office demanding that all of his attention and billions of our dollars go to his problem. And it's like, that's when I got involved in this. I just don't want to regime. I don't want to argue that Israel. I've always liked Israel. I actually know a lot about Israel been there several times. I'm not against it. But this is ridiculous. What are you doing? Our country is like dying in a lot of ways. We need to deal with our problems. We're so in debt that we'll never get out of it. And you're telling me that Iran is the biggest problem. It's a bigger problem than only fans. Like some huge percentage of our women are prostitutes now because of only fans. That's a bigger problem than Iran. Sorry. At least that's my view. I mean, maybe you have a counter-argument. OK. But I voice this and they're like, you hate Jews. I'm like, couldn't the counter-argument be there both problems? Yes, but there's only so much time and so much money. So you have to create a hierarchy of concern. I'm merely putting Iran where it deserves to be, which is very low on the list of concerns if you're running the US government. The number one concern is we're about to have a debt crisis, in which case we become poor. And we lose the status of the US dollars of reserve currency. And we have to actually pay. And then that's when they take Yellowstone away. And our water rights and this becomes an impoverished fracture are debt holders. So it'd be Japan, China, Europe, the world. Like at some point, there's collateral. OK. You owe money, you can't repay. What are we going to do about this? I'm just imagining this. I don't know that any whatever call Yellowstone. But I'm just saying, when you owe money, you borrow that money against an asset that has independent value. That's why your home loan is collateralized against your home. Does duh. We don't have any collateral. There's more paper than there are assets. So I'm just saying, without getting into it, this is a true crisis. And Trump had a lot of ideas for how to deal with it. I don't know if all of them are right or not. But his energy was focused on this. And then this foreign leader of a country of 9 million people with no resources, no strategic value at all. At all. I love Jerusalem. Great. Israel, apart from our defense guarantee, is meaningless. We, Israel is important because we say it's important. That's the only reason. Well, what's its strategic importance other than that? Are there trade routes that go through it? Do they have a ton of oil we need? Like, what is this? I don't understand it. I think it's a very simple thing. And that is going back to our friends, the Christian Zionists, they're a huge voting block in American domestic politics. Well, of course. Right. And so anybody who wants to be successful in American politics on the right of center has to demonstrate a... You're absolutely right. Has to demonstrate an affection for Israel. No doubt. But what I'm saying is like, at some point, I get that. And that's the core weakness of our system is that it's easily subverted by blocks of voters who are highly organized. OK, got it. Jefferson, worried about this. It's been a problem for a long time. I'm just saying at this point, you kind of have to have room for independent judgments about what is in our country's interest geostrategically. And we have so wildly inflated the importance of this tiny country, which I think is a beautiful country. And I can't visit it, but I want to. Because I love it. No one... You're like, well, we have to be more closely led with Israel than in their country. It's like, well, why? And no one can answer you. They'll go, because they're threatened. Well, so are a lot of countries. So is Rwanda. So is Congo. I mean, I've just traveled too much. Like, they're not alone in having neighbors that don't like them. And so... But why is that my problem when we're about to run into this brick wall of debt obligations? I would say, and this is going to take more time than we have. But the people, in this instance, the people who don't like them, the Muslims surrounding Muslim countries, are also people who don't like us. And Muslims... Specifically, which government are you talking about? OK, there's the government of Dearborn Michigan. You know, a lot of the Muslims in Dearborn are Christian. But I mean, a lot of the Arabs in Michigan are Christian. So just like in point of fact, and I'm OK with them, because they're fellow Christians, even though... Yeah. They look different. But I don't know. I haven't been to Dearborn in a long time. I can't speak to Dearborn. I'm against... You know, I'm a Christian. But I rate that against the actual threats. Well, I think of it this way. I've seen the England for years. I've seen England as 20 years behind the continent. And America is 30 years behind England. And currently, every major city in England is governed. It has a Muslim mayor. Their immigration policy has been disastrous like ours. Only ours, our southern border, has been largely penicostles and trainitarian Catholics that have come across the border. Islamists in Germany and Islamists in the UK are entirely different. I have family in Europe. I'm there constantly. I was there like 10 days ago, so I agree with you completely. And so someone could argue, as I would, that the Muslims who are threatening Israel are Muslims who are threatening us. Yeah, I mean, I... Islam is a greater threat than the Jews. Yeah, is the problem with the Muslims of Europe that they're too Muslim or that they're criminals? Well, I mean... That's the same thing. Yeah, it's not, though, actually. And it's not. And... No, the Muslim brothers... Let me ask you this. And I'm totally not for Islam, okay? I'm a Christian. Why are there twice as many Christians living in Qatar as there are in Israel, do you think? Twice as many Christians in Qatar as... In Qatar. Yeah, the Islamist slaves' gate that we hear so much about. But there are twice as many Christians living there as in Israel. And they can leave if they want. They came freely, but there are twice as many in Qatar. And what do you think that is? Can we build churches? Yeah, actually, the state gave them the land for their churches. But why is that? If what you're saying is true? Because it's not true, actually. Islam is false. I don't believe in it. I don't want my kids to be Muslim. I'm not Muslim. But we have the reality that you experience when you get outside the American media biosphere is so different the reality from what you're describing. Second question I want to ask is, how do we get all these Muslims here after 9-11? They all came after 9-11. Who encouraged that? Exactly. Who encouraged that? And it's a lot of the same people who are now encouraging us to hate Muslims. Actually, to ADL was totally for it. It's totally for it. We want to... ADL. Oh, ADL. Completely for that. You could not for 25 years. No, they encouraged that. So what is that? I don't know what that is, but I know that the same people who are like Islam as the problem are the same people who brought us all these Muslims here. Right, because... It's still like I'm being played a little bit. That's all I'm saying. I agree with that. The left wants discord. The left wants to foment. I don't like white Christians. So they wanted to dilute the population in the United States and they did it systematically through migration and they did the same thing in Western Europe. And I think we should stop all immigration period. And I would also say that you... At this point, you can't... We have this non-Christian society. Like, we're not going to have it over all in Christian society in my lifetime, sadly. But what do you do with that? And the first thing you do is recognize that attacking people on the basis of their DNA is going to turn us into a Rwanda. And so you have to... And the same people crying anti-Semitism constantly telling me I can't have free speech rights because there's anti-Semitism are the same people telling us that we have to hate Muslims because they're Muslim. Well, now how is hating Muslims better than hating Jews? Yeah, it's not. Exactly. If you hate Muslims because they're Muslim, that's... The same as hating Jews because they're Jewish. Yeah, correct. I'm out. But if you are opposed to Muslims who have read the Quran, which I've done a couple of times, I read through the Quran, and the Muslim Brotherhood, the people, the jihadis, are not twisting the Quran. I'm sure I... They're being consistent with it. And I see them as a far greater threat to the West than the state of Israel is. And so protecting Israel for Muslims, you could argue, is a roundabout way of protecting... It's a process. How's that work for us? The process we went to war in Iraq in March of 2003 at the behest of Israel. Flat out, BB said it, glad you're doing it. And... I don't know, there's no debate about that. And then in the years since, we've gotten millions of Muslims in the United of millions since the Iraq war. So how's that program worked out for us? We don't have any Muslims in the United States when I was growing up. And as our support for Israel has become more and more fanatical, which it is, it's fanatical. You can't even discuss it. Answer some, we've gotten more Muslims. So I don't think this works the way that we think it does. Right. I think that the whole system at the top is demented. Yeah, I think. But that doesn't change the facts on the ground. We've got the problem that we have in Dearborn is a problem that London has and a bunch of other UK cities have because we have lost our center. As the poet says, the center gives way. No doubt. Everything's sunk. The best lack of conviction, the worst are full of passion and intensity. And that's where we are. I would argue that because we are involved militarily and on many other levels in the Middle East, at the behest of Israel, we're there because of Israel. We have an air-base in Qatar, because of Israel. We've all these troops there because of Israel. We have a lot of Muslims. We have an air-base in Idaho, Qatar, if the deal goes through. Why is that? Because Israel bombed Doha because they were doing a piece, we were doing a peace negotiation with Hamas. Why is that our job? Why is any of this our job? We've invaded the world and then we've imported the world. It's the most, it happened to Britain. That's why they got immigration in the 60s because their empire was coming down and they're like, you're from Barbados, you're from Nigeria, those were British colonies, you move here. And we're doing the same thing. So how about we just, we don't have actual interests in the Middle East other than oil. We, let's just pull back because this is destroying our country. Right. Turn off the tap and here, drill baby drill. Exactly, exactly. All right, so although we've not solved very many problems at all. We feel like we're close, man. We have identified at least six or seven rabbit trails that we could have run down and then did not. Can I apologize to you for saying I hated anybody? I'm sorry, I said that I mean it too. Oh, no, you made that clear. What I wanted to, I thought your moment at Charlie's Memorial was powerful and it was straight at the essential issue. We need to forgive. I got to tack for that. That was anti-Semitic. Yeah. Yeah. How was the anti-Semitic? A bunch of things that normal people do. A bunch of things that normal Christians do. Wanting a Jew to believe in Jesus, for example. That's simple evangelism and that's simple love. And that's not anti-Semitism, right? But Nick Fuentes is an actual anti-Semitic. I told him that. I mean, I got nothing to do with that. I told him I'm against it, which I am. Yeah, cool. But clearly yelling at the kid makes him stronger. You should watch that Pierce Morgan interview. It's one of the funniest things you've ever seen in your life is you know idea what's happening. There's a German word that prevents me from doing that. It's called Fremschamen. Fremschamen, which is the agonizing feeling you have when someone should be humiliated for himself. But somehow it's not the... Love that. Fremschamen? F-R-E-M-D-S-C-H-A-M-E-N. Fremschamen, and my whole family has this affliction when someone is just making a total mess and they don't know that they're making a total mess. It's just... I may have a little bit of that. All right. I should be more ashamed than I am. Thank you. Thank you, Nick. That was great. I appreciate it. If you enjoyed this episode, check out every season of Man Rampant on Canon Plus.