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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: What's happening, Brand Nerds? Yeah. You know, it's your boy, back at you with a podcast of Brands, Beats and Bytes. And we have someone in the building today who who was familiar with a territory, that's close to where I grew up. We got, we got another six god in the building. So somebody that understands Toronto in the building so Larry, can you can you let us know who we have in the building today?
LT: Yes, DC. We have Jane Lee in the house, today. Welcome, Jane.
Jane Lee: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Okay. First of all, are you from Toronto?
DC: No. No, no. Okay. So I am from Detroit, right across from Windsor, Ontario. And Jane, I just want to tell you this. I have been to many Caribanas and I have had a freaking ball. Okay. I mean, I have, like, for those of you who have never done Caribana in Toronto, like do yourself a favor and come. I don't know if they still turn up, like they did when I went, but it, it was something else. So I love Toronto. One of my favorite cities.
Jane Lee: Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. Everyone needs to go and experience that. Yeah.
LT: And that's a great segue to your super cool background. So as you we've already established, Jane is from Toronto, that's a silent T right? Jane.
And she earned her business degree at York University, Schulich School of Business. So, all right, D. So Jane gets her start in brand management first with our friends at Pepsi in Canada, where she works at a cross-functional marketing role, and then transitions to working in brand on Yoplait Yogurt at General Mills, where she is an integral part of a team, that team that wins a Marketing Executional Reward.
So she's getting a great start already, D. Brand management. Wonderful. Right. So check this out. Jane then moves from Toronto to New York, where she goes to work for Exact Media as the U.S. brand Partnership Lead and at Exact Media they have a team of serial entrepreneurs and experienced CPG marketers who build a global media network for companies like P&G, Unilever and J&J can effectively drive product trial, engagement, and market share goals by running targeted campaigns through their e-commerce network.
It's interesting, D. We always talk about how people's careers have these stepping stones. Well, for Jane's. It's so easy to see.
So check this out. So all this great experience then leads Jane to make a leap that many corporate marketers really want to do what really either don't do or don't do successfully.
DC: That's cause it's hard, Larry. It's hard.
LT: Exactly. Exactly. So Jane starts a company named silly b Intimates, which is a specialized line of lingerie, the one that fixes all wardrobe malfunctions, and then a little more than one year, she is acquired. How impressive is that?
Jane Lee: Yep. It happened really fast. I mean, mind you like this was, I guess like eight years ago when it was so like e-commerce and direct to consumer brand world was so different. Like literally.
LT: We've got to keep going now and get into this. Okay. So we're going to get into where you are now, which is amazing. So after this great success, Shopify recruits Jane, to be an entrepreneur in residence. And so D, Jane then leverages all this wonderfully successful experience into her current venture, where she founds Launch Pop. Now, Launch Pop is best known for their signal testing, which just trademarked and is a proprietary testing and research methodology used to find product market fit and community before launching a digitally native brand and ultimately helping high potential founders successfully launch their direct to consumer brand and or CPG brand. So she successfully launched brands include More Labs, Rowan For Dogs, Hydrant, GEM, et cetera.
Additionally, Jane serves as an advisor to Maple VC and early stage tech fund and Lyra Growth, a growth equity fund for consumer brands. Jane is also an active angel investor and lastly, Jane is also a volunteer mentor at The Founders institute in summary Brand Nerds, we have a high flyer and incredibly innovative marketer and successful entrepreneur in the house today.
Think you're going to enjoy this one immensely. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Jane Lee.
Jane Lee: Thank you. Thank you. That was quite the introduction. I've never had someone like read like every stage of my career like that. So I feel like, super honored. Thank you for that introduction.
LT: You're welcome. You, you did it all. We just read it.
Jane Lee: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting though. Like, it's like, oh, people always ask me like, oh, should I just like start a company right away after school? And whenever I tell them my story of how I went into like corporate and then startup and then tech, and then start up again, it's kind of like, I did get that 360 experience across all the different categories and it just helped me become a better marketer. Yeah. As a whole,
LT: No doubt.
DC: So Jane Lee, Larry always gives our guests their flowers. They get their flowers right off the rip. So you've got, you've got your flowers there and Brand Nerds. We truly have a six goddess in the building today. And what you just talked touched upon Jane is where we going to go with our Get Comfy section.
So here you are, you're doing your corporate thing, you and your corporate way, you're doing well on your corporate way. And then you make this move into entrepreneurship, this silly b What was going on inside of your mind, your heart and your soul, as you, as you begin to make the actual move from corporate person to entrepreneur.
Jane Lee: Yeah. I always say this about how, like entrepreneurs have this like stupid confidence, which is like a confidence that comes out of nowhere. Like you just believe in yourself and you believe that you can problem solve and get through anything. And I think I had that and I was so young and I didn't have that much experience, but I still believed in my capabilities of problem-solving. It was in my capabilities to actually like create a good company. It was like, I think that no matter what I come across, I could figure it out. And so I think like that was really helpful for that transition over. And also it helped that I was like super young and I had like, essentially nothing to lose.
I was like, sure. You know, like I've, I've gone to like General Mills and Pepsi and I've if this company fails and I can always get a job, but I can't like take back, you know, the time that I have the energy and the freedom to start something and take all this risk. And so that was like a big thinking as well. But it was like the hardest transition, I think. One of the things that happened during my first company was that I started it with a friend and you guys probably know a lot of co-founder horror stories where like it didn't work out. And I had to pay her out, put me in a lot of debt, had to like really claw myself out of that.
She was also like, it used to be a really good friend. So obviously that emotional part was really hard. So that experience like made me grow up really, really quickly. But it all turned out to be the best. So...
LT: I love that you shared the full scope of that, right. D because, you know, on paper you go started silly b intimates. In a year, a months, months, you not only started, but you were already acquired. And so on paper, it looks like, oh, that's amazing. That was easy. But even just the, that, that, that part that you just shared about having a co-founder, who was a friend, like that's, you know, that's a whole different situation that people have to traverse when they take this kind of path, those kinds of things. And so what looks on paper is never as smooth as it really is in real life.
Jane Lee: Oh yeah, for sure. And I think like back then as well, because it was such an early stage for direct to consumer brands. I didn't have the financial literacy to understand what fundraising meant. Cause I was like really young and you know, I'm a woman and it wasn't like a thing that us women talked about. And so I raised no money. So at nighttime I would actually work at a bakery like the nighttime shift to be able to fund like my personal expenses. And no one wants to do that. It's so unglamorous, you know, like it's like, having your own company, but at night time you're a baker at a, at a bread shop. But I just believed in the company so much that I did that. And in hindsight, I wish I could have learned more about fundraising at a younger age. So I could have like, had not had that extra stress, but but it all worked out cause I own the whole company, so.
DC: Wow.
LT: That's, that's so cool. You shared this, you know, I have to tell you this Jane, sorry, D, I just want to make one quick point.
We have, we, we have some folks that we're close with that just started a fund called Growth Warrior Capital, and it's designed to be a tech fund that's going to really focus on The minority community and also women. And Scott Donahue, who's like my best friend who's their CEO tells a story that there's many times. One of the things I want to tell women is women will, you know, they'll they'll have a round and the VC will offer them something, and women just say, okay, where a guy would never do that.
Jane Lee: Yeah. It's so true. You know, what's crazy. It's like all my guy friends, they had no problem asking their friends for money. They're like, oh, I'm starting a company can I borrow 10k from you? And their guy friends will just give them money. Whereas women will never ask their friends for money. Because it feels so much like burden, and like, if they do get money, they want to actually pay off the debt right away, which is actually not smart.
Right. It's like, don't pay off the debt, like keep growing and then pay off the debt later. But women just like aren't naturally like that. And so there is a really big difference in terms of like women's comfort with money and stuff like that, which I think is changing a little bit, but I'm glad that that fund is actually doing a good job, but you know.
LT: It just started.
Jane Lee: Oh, amazing.
LT: D, your point.
DC: All right. So Jane you've referenced that you were a young person when you started when you did your first start up. How old were you if you don't mind me asking?
Jane Lee: 24.
DC: So you're 24 years old. Okay. So you're 24. So you're young, you're a woman and you're a woman of color. All right. And you talked about, your mindset was you did didn't have anything to lose. So that's why you went into entrepreneurship. So some of our listeners are your age then or around there, and they're thinking this, oh yeah, I've got somethin' to lose.
I've got a bonus that's coming. I like the place where I live. My car. I just started my 401k. I've got a really good start. They're thinking there's quite a bit that can be lost at 24 25, 26, 27. What do you say to those Brand Nerds who may be contemplating entrepreneurship? But may think they have quite a bit to lose or risk?
Jane Lee: Don't do it. And it's okay. Right. I think that like, you know entrepreneurship has been so glamorized these days and it feels like everyone has this pressure to do something on their own, but you don't have to, like, it's actually fine to, to work at a company and learn, and actually do entrepreneurial things inside of the company. Because if you're not willing to give up literally everything for your company, then I don't think you'll be a good entrepreneur, honestly. And that's why like, even as an investor, it's like when you see founders who are doing it part-time, or haven't invested their own money into their own company, it's a red flag, right. Because it's like, why would I want to invest in you if you don't even believe in yourself and you're not giving up your whole entire, you know life for yourself. And when I started my first company, like, I couldn't go out with friends anymore because it had no cash to go out. I had to like, you know, eat eggs for a month, hard-boiled eggs, you know? So it's like, are you willing to go to that extent because you believe in the future of your company? And if the answer's no, and that's fine,
DC: Jane, I am elated that you are sharing this real-world view of what it's like to be an entrepreneur as my daughters would say and what my eldest is back here, she's 25. So she's listening to this now and it's Hailey is a so, so you're keeping it a buck with our with our Brand Nerds. Two quick things before we move to the next section.
The first one is this. There's always a story behind the story. This was Larry's earlier point. And the second thing that you said that I really want to capture and pronounce and highlight, raise up. Being an entrepreneur is like being at a high stakes poker table, except you're not pushing just chips in the middle. You're putting your life into the middle and to your point Jane, if you're not willing to bet on yourself and be willing to risk it all in Jane, you said everything.
And, and the, the Latin definition is of everything is "err' thing". Okay. Everything okay. If you're not willing to do that, you're not ready to be an entrepreneur, just not ready. And as you said, Jane, and that's okay. Not everybody has an appetite for that. Not everybody has an appetite, but okay. This is great.
Nice, Get Comfy. Now we're going to five questions, five questions. All right. So here's how it goes down, Jane. I asked you a question. Larry asks a question. Back and forth until we arrive at five. I'm kicking this thing off. I'd like you to help us understand. You've you've hopped around all these different brands, corporately. You've done a couple of startups. Now you're an angel investor. Let's go back. Let's go back before you were doing all this six goddess boss stuff. What was the first branding experience you had Jane that just took your breath away. Captured your attention. Compelled you to love it. You could not get a enough of it. Like a first love, like a crush. What was that for you? In, in the, in the space of brands?
Jane Lee: Yeah, it's pretty funny to think about this because I, I had to go back, you know, way, way back. And I think my first experience and like aha moment with branding was, you know, back in the day when like Baby Phat and like Echo Red, like, it was like really cool. And everyone wanted that stuff. It was like super swaggy. I was in high school and I every single summer in high school, I went to back to Korea to visit family and there's like a street in Korea where they sell like fake shit. I was like, walking in everything was like five bucks or like $1 for these like really cute, like Baby Phat stuff. I was like, wow, this is amazing, but it's fake, and so I actually like bought like a bunch of it. And then at my high school, I basically just started like selling it for like double or triple the amount. And that was like, honestly, my first experience as an entrepreneur, I didn't even know that. Yeah.
I was like in grade nine, you know, but I was like making money off of like this thing and I wasn't doing it with a website or anything. I was literally just sitting there at my locker with like stacks of t-shirts and stuff. And so I mean, that was first experience as an entrepreneur, but also my first experience in sales. So, and also my first experience with brand and realizing like the power of brand and how much you can do and price things. If the brand is strong enough and how people want it to just be a part of the Phat Farm branding, because it meant that they had status.
I really start to understand what brand meant to people. So I think seeing that, I was like, ah, this is really interesting. And then that led me to go into business school. And then, you know, in business school, I was like learning a lot about the different roads I could take; finance, consulting, marketing. An interesting thing about learning about marketing and brand management was that you realize that marketing is so much more than just like advertising and design. Like marketing is literally like business management, like you're thinking about the product and how to position it and the forecasting and the financials and the P and L and how that works all together. And it's so entrepreneurial and it's so just like you get to learn about all the whole entire cross-functional team. And I fell in love with that. You know, I also, I also love like what looks pretty. Trends. Yes. I think that's still, like, if you, as a marketer has have that soft skill set of like, understanding what's cool and being on top of trends that actually works for you a lot. But I also love like the whole like business management part of things. And so Yeah. Went to General Mills and I think one of the products I worked on it was really interesting. It was like it was when I could actually start looking into a lot of data, because if you work at a big CPG company, you get to work on Nielsen, which is like the big dataset and you get to dig through everything and figure out where there's opportunity or white space. And I was, you know, so compelled by looking at this data. And I was like, I was seeing some opportunities because I was like, it's really interesting that there's this yogurt brand called optimal. And it had like two grams more protein than the average yogurt. Could I position this as a work-out yogurt? And kind of like how chocolate milk, did it and would that be successful? So it actually like created this whole entire plan on how to reposition this brand and it pitched it to the team at Yoplait. It didn't go through. But I think that also helped me fall more in love with branding. Cause I was like, wow, that whole entire process of me just digging through thousands of numbers and seeing an opportunity and then building a plan around that, on how to reposition and like create a whole new audience. That's marketing too. And that's like a cool part of marketing. Yeah. So
DC: Love that story. Larry. Any any thoughts to to this before the next question to you?
LT: I'm ready to hit the next question. That's a great story.
DC: Let's do it.
LT: So, okay. So Jane, who has had, or is having the most influence on your career?
Jane Lee: I would say I'm sure you got this lot, like. For sure. Yeah. My parents are both immigrants from Korea. You know, we were like not very well off growing up. My parents couldn't even speak the language, so they have to learn how to like start a convenience store without knowing English very well.
And so I think watching them go from nothing to like having a convenience store or that they're able to sell. And then for us to actually become like, you know, like not poor. That watching that my whole life. I think that was like a really big reason why I'm like the way that I am right now. I'm not scared of risking things because my parents risked their whole entire lives to come to Canada.
I. Yeah. Just seeing my dad being an entrepreneur and like seeing how he like hired people, that learning all of that really young, made me comfortable with starting a company and marketing. Yeah.
DC: Wow.
LT: That is such a great backstory because you know what, when you were saying before, when you're 24 and starting, you know, a silly b intimates, you lived this as a kid, you, you might not even consciously realized it, you know, like you were saying before, how some people shouldn't start it because they're not ready.
It's for you, you had that, you definitely had the the nurture aspect and you probably have the nature aspect too, for it. To think about it, that the throughput of your life that's really cool.
Jane Lee: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think I definitely had both. I always say this. I was like, I feel like I have like it in my blood. The entrepreneurship is in my blood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DC: Are your parents still with us to Jane?
Jane Lee: Yes. Yeah.
DC: What are their names?
Jane Lee: My dad's name is Bruce Lee and then my mom's name is and Eunhee
DC: Spell it, first name.
Jane Lee: E U N H E E. Yeah. Yeah.
DC: One comment on this. When your family made the decision, they were going to leave their home in Korea and come to Canada. There probably wasn't a much of a safety net for them, yet, they made the trek nonetheless, and they probably made it in part for you.
Do you have siblings?
Jane Lee: Yes. I have an older brother.
DC: Okay, for you and your older brother. What I imagine they did not know, is what their journey would do and what their children would learn from watching their journey. They probably thought because we're going to Canada, and did you all land in Toronto first or were you in Toronto first or were you somewhere else in Canada? Toronto.
They probably thought our children are going to get a lot of benefit from growing up in Toronto. They probably thought the experiences there would be good. They may not have been thinking, watching us figure out how to launch a convenience store without knowing the language, would teach our son and daughter something that they could take with them for the rest of their lives.
That is dope. That's dope. That's dope. Okay.
Jane Lee: And one thing I am, I am pregnant right now with my first child. In my sixth month. Which is funny, cause like, you know, like all meetings are in zoom, so like no one knows. And it's interesting cause like, obviously like you're a parent clearly. And it's just like thinking about the next generation and like, you know, like I got my ambition a lot from seeing like the struggles of my parents. Like I wonder, cause you know, like I don't think my child struggle as much as me, but I want them to still have that ambition and learn about like that immigrant mentality of working hard. Yeah, so it's like it's constantly in my head.
DC: You're you know, this already, you, Jane you're blessed. Blessed, right? Third question. Third question. You've had extraordinary success in your career. You took risks early, which you've already spoken to. So you've had some, some W's. But we don't want to know about those W's though, with this question, we want to know about the ELLs, like the big L, the loss, the fuck up what's what's the biggest one from you part A. And then part B Jane is what did you learn from that?
Jane Lee: Oh, man. A lot of fuck-ups, honestly.
LT: Hey, successful people if you don't have, you're not successful.
Jane Lee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's true. Yeah, so I guess like one of them is. So my company Launch Pop right now, you know, it's a great company and my co-founder and I are the only people on the cap table. We don't have investors. Profitable company and you know, we have a great team. I love the company that we've built. And you know, it was interesting because like we started the company adamant about not having investors, because we wanted to make sure that we built something that was just ours.
And we had the ultimate freedom with all of the decisions that we would make for Launch Pop. And so I'm there, like at the beginning, I think one of the biggest fuck ups. So it was like, there were like several, but one of them was, we didn't really manage our cashflow correctly. So that's one of the big fuck-ups, in the first year. Yeah, I think, yeah.
Yeah. It's like, it's interesting when you're like starting a company and like you start making a lot of revenue and there's a lot of traction, and then you start thinking about how to grow the company, but then you have to like, think about your expenses. And I know that's such a simple concept, but I think a lot of people will get like, just, almost like blinded by like the potential of the growth of the company.
And just like, forget that the burn rate, like you really have to understand your burn rate and how that will influence your growth and how much you can grow versus how much you're making, especially if you're not planning on raising. Well, you still do, actually, even if you do raise money, because like, you know, like investors will want to see that.
And so just like, it's just like finance 101, just like understand cash flow and understand that there's always a risk of something happening and going wrong. Especially if like you are a company that has started to get a lot of traction, something will happen. So for us, like. We did super well because the first company that we launched was called Morning Recovery. It's this hangover drink. And yeah, we, we launched that one from scratch and we made a million dollars in top line revenue in the first three months. And you know, we're like, let's move the company to LA. Let's, let's get a sick condo. And let's just like do bunch of BD. And like, we ha we knew no one in LA because we're from Toronto and we just spent like a ton of cash. And, and then, and then some other fuck ups started happening. One was legal. You know, we didn't think about actually hiring a lawyer to create contracts that were super detailed and, and were smart. We were making the contracts and thinking like, who cares? We're small, whatever. Right. And then that fuck up actually fucked up our cashflow. So we are now in two fuck-ups. That's like almost a lawsuit and then also cashflow issues. And then on top of that, because of two things were happening, another fuck up happened, which was like, we started to my co-founder and I, started to prioritize the company over our health. And that was a really bad move because we are the company, like the people of our company, are our company. And so when you do that, you don't get good work and a good product. So there was literally a time when we'd be like, we had to like sell all of our clothes to make some cashflow for us personally. And there was a month when I was like, I felt like puking every single day cause I was so stressed. And so I had to like lie down and take all my meetings. And that's that puking feeling was from stress because we were going through the, all of that legal shit and the cash it, and then on top of it, we weren't like actually prioritizing ourselves. We were just like, we need to get out of it. So like we just need to work, work, work. And so our health started to deteriorate. And so all of that happened during the first year of the company.
LT: So yeah, so Jane, so I'm sorry to interrupt you, but, so thanks for sharing that really. And so now that you've described, cashflow F you know, a term then leading to attorneys, then leading to not taking care of yourself, you clearly dug yourself out. How did you do it?
Jane Lee: Yeah. I don't tell this story very often, but I'll tell it to you guys. There's actually this one point when we had, like, my co-founder had like no cash for food that week, because like, we were, we were being stupid with cashflow at that time. And so we actually like went on a walk on the Santa Monica Beach and we like found seaweed from the beach or we brought it home, we boiled it and we cooked it and we ate it with hot sauce because you know, seaweed in Asian culture, like you eat it. Like,
DC: Wow!
Jane Lee: I know it was a great story to tell now for sure. But yeah, that was like the lowest of the low. And you know, there were so many times when my co-founder and I could've actually just gave up because there were so many bad things that were happening to us personally and also with the company.
But. We knew that we had like a good company and a good way of launching brands. Like our methodology was different. We knew that people wanted it because we still had a lot of people that were like emailing us and wanting to work with us. We just had to figure out how to get out of this slump. And yeah, one of the things that we did was we actually took some time, like we actually took three months to actually stop a lot of our operations for the company to like, to think about the company, what we need to problem-solve and prioritize our health.
Like that's actually a decision that we made and it was a scary move because when you stop your company at an early stage for three months, that's like a blackout period, but we knew that we needed to do that. And I'm so glad that we did. And then during those three months as well, we actually. Put our ego down and we actually asked a couple of friends to borrow like very small cash amount of cash, like around 20k. But that helped us a lot to get us back on our feet and like rethink how to price our product, what our systems were exactly how to build the team. Instead of being still like busy and distracted by all the things that were happening, we like started to like kind of clean up the foundation of Launch Pop.
And then we went back into like operating the company and like, the great thing is we had a good product. Like we had a good system. So like that was, you know, already in demand. And so we just need to clean up kind of operations. And then from there everything started to do well. And obviously it didn't happen right away, but it took like, you know, six months for us. And we started to become profitable. We started to grow the team. We started to really get some good press because we were doing really great work. And then we started to get more demand and five years later and we're here.
LT: Wow. So D, slow down to speed up. That's what you know, and for you guys to do that flew in the face of all that, like, you know, you tend to, you know, use a baseball analogy, squeeze the bat even tighter, and then you can't swing.
And so you got you in effect how to do your sort of almost hit the reset button. Right. And that's what you did. And there's huge learning in that. Jane, this story's incredible. And in so many ways, D, what do you have to add to that?
DC: All right. Just one thing quickly before we get to, before we get to Larry's next question. And that is what is the, Jane, singular most important thing you've learned from that experience?
Jane Lee: I think it's about like, the power of grit and resilience. Yeah. Like it's, it's like, that is probably the most powerful thing. But at the same time being very open, being very open to pivoting and it's almost like don't love your product too much. Hold it loosely and be open to pivoting. Based off of what's happened, but always be resilient about getting through everything. Yeah.
DC: Six goddess is laying down the bars right now.
Good. Larry.
LT: Yeah, we're ready for the next question. That's a drop the mic for that question. Great stuff, Jane. So the next question is regarding technology and marketing, you have great perspective on this in so many ways. Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech versus areas that they should be leery?
Jane Lee: Yeah, it's certainly a question. So I think like there's three things. I think like marketers should really leverage when it comes to technology. One is like so my company is completely remote and we've been using Slack from like four or five years, even before COVID and we've really learned how to create culture within slack and actually have like a really good company culture.
Even though everyone's remote. And so it does take some time, but you also have to try to find people who are actually very comfortable with, you know, living and breathing Slack, being remote. And so I think like utilizing communication tools, like Slack on an everyday basis to get things done quickly like you can do it.
And I think a lot of people are kind of like resistant to it saying like, it's not the same as in-person and I totally get that, but there is a way to actually make it very special and, and make it feel like people are in person with you. So I'd say that's one. The other is, so one of the things that we do at, at Launch Pop is, we do a lot of testing.
So even before we create a brand for any of our products that we're launching, we actually just AB tested on Facebook and Instagram ads. And this is what a lot of tech companies do. We kind of just borrow this type of methodology from tech and apps, and we just kind of flipped it over to CPG products.
And so some people will come to us literally with like a brown bottle and they'll be like, this is a hangover solution. Let's launch this. And we're like, okay, cool. Well, let's actually put this out into the world and see who interacts with it. And like, if we position it in different ways, how many people interact with it? And so even before we make like the pretty packaging or the logo, we actually just create like an image of the product. And we actually just put it out on, and we just wait and see who the heck clicks onto it and who gives us there email. And it's really interesting because like, so many times like founders will come to us and they will have a bias way of looking at their product.
They're like, like the Morning Recovery was like, the founder was like, let's target college students because college students drink the most. And we were like, okay, true. But let's actually like, see who does? And it wasn't the college student that actually clicked onto that ad. It was actually the people who worked in tech and finance and consulting that were clicking onto the ad the most.
And that gave us an idea there. Like we were like, okay, interesting. And then we started AB testing, different positionings of the product. Like one was like, this is your productivity tool, drink and do more the next day. The other one was more like, this is your party hack, like drink so much and just party more.
And we tested all these different ads and it was actually the, kind of like the biohacking functional ad that did the best. And so like utilize all these tools that are available for you. You know, you don't have to be an agency to actually use Facebook and Instagram Ad Manager. You yourself can do it as an individual and just test stress, test your assumptions. Because as a marketer, the worst thing is when you have too much bias around, like what you believe to be true and what you believe to be right. You have to listen to customers. That's like so important. And then the third I don't want is like like I think as a marketer, like the word community has been used a lot these days.
And, and I strongly believe that community is like probably the only way to be defensible against other brands and creating community can start at any time, even before you have a product. So with us before we even have like a brand or a website ready for the product, we actually create community from the get-go and it'll either be on like Facebook group, private Instagram handle, discord or Slack, and we create a closed off group. And we invite like around 200 of our core consumers into that group. And even before the product is ready for ready for sale, we actually like co-create the brand with this group. So we like ask them, like, which logo do you like better or which packaging do you like better? And like, they all vote on it. And this becomes your like online living and breathing focus group, but it also becomes a community of people that felt like they actually built the business with you. And then they start inviting their friends. And then by the time you launch, these are the people that actually are your ambassadors, but are the people that purchase first because they actually built it with you.
So yeah, I would say like utilize those three kind of tech products to your advantage as a marketer.
LT: Hence Launch Pop, that's what you guys do. I mean, those, you answered that question, you know, in, in a way that you guys live, which I love. D, anything to add to that? Should we go to the next question?
DC: Indeed, Jane Lee, what have you, what are you most proud of?
Jane Lee: I've actually never been asked this question, which is interesting. I think I'm most proud of like the relationships that I've built and that I've created over my career slash my life. Cause it's kinda the same thing. Yeah, so yeah, it's just like, I think through, especially like through Launch Pop, I I'm able to like live my truest self.
So like I don't fake a different Jane through Launch Pop than I am like out at my personal life. And that's helped my company work with great people because there's no hiding, you know who I am and who just gets along with me naturally. So my team is amazing and the clients that we work with are great.
And. Yeah, I think it's just like my personal relationships, my professional relationships, every single person that I've create a great relationship with are just like amazing people. And I think that's what I'm most proud of.
LT: You know what Jane, that is an incredible thing to be proud of and, you know, the way you describe it to your personal life and your business life are so intertwined.
Right. And and that's what you live and for you to have that realization, I think it takes sometimes takes folks a lot longer or never realized that how the relationship, that the core, and it sounds like it even starts with your family the way you describe your mom and dad. And and you continue to move forward in a way that, that, that is incredible.
I've got a quick follow-up question on that though. So what do you do when you're not connecting with someone, whether it be a client and, or, someone that you thought you hired or in some relationship waiting and go, this, this is a working. What, how do you handle that?
Jane Lee: Yeah, I have like a like at Launch Pop, we fire clients.
Yeah. It's like definitely a thing.
LT: Say that again, please, because I think that's important for people to understand
Jane Lee: A hundred percent, we fired clients. Like if they don't align with our culture and like, I know it's cheesy, but on one of our slides, whenever we work with a founder to watch their company, it's like, it says the word kindness, because it's actually like, I know it's cheesy, but everyone needs to respect each other.
And if they aren't, then I don't hesitate honestly, to fire them because it's just not a good fit. And it just sucks the energy out of all of my team members and therefore they will act. Perform poorly with other clients. And so, yeah. And so it's like, I don't hesitate with that at all anymore.
And obviously we're super blessed because like, we have like a lot of people that want to work with us. And I totally understand people who like are just starting out and need that cash and attraction at the beginning. So you take on shitty clients. We did that too at the very beginning. But to get like ultimate freedom is to be able to say like, no to people that just don't align with like how you like to work.
LT: Isn't that a great feeling when you do that, actually.
Jane Lee: Oh my god. Yes. It's so good. It's like, and that's important also in like your personal life too. Like you can fire your friends. You don't have to be friends with that person forever. If they're like sucking energy out of you and you fire them. Yeah. So,
LT: And it sounds cruel, but it's not, it's, it's just, you know, there's relationships just like, you know, before I was, before I was married, there's relationships that come and go.
And it's, and it's the same with friends too. So that's the way life works.
DC: Yeah. I agree.
LT: D, you have anything to add?
DC: I am enthralled with this conversation and I am Jane because there is a wisdom and depth to your, depth and dimension to your answers that I think is providing a kaleidoscope of insights that our audience has not quite experienced. So thank you for that.
Jane Lee: Aw, that's so nice. Yeah. I'm like, I understand that like, a lot of people need advice that is actionable.
So like, you know, when people listen to podcasts and some people like hear advice, that's so high up there and fluffy, it's like hard to really grasp, especially when you're younger. So I try to like mix both stuff that you can actually like execute on and stuff that like genuinely you just learn over time and matter.
LT: Well, and also we fill in this social media culture, you know, you see the best pictures, you see people share the best of the best. And when you you've shared some stories, like, you know, boiling seaweed, right? Like, you know, someone who's really successful like yourself. It's not just all a straight uphill climb.
There's, there's a lot of waves in that. And so I think it's really important because everybody. Has tough times, you know, I love a quote. I forget who it's attributed to, but tough times don't last but tough people do.
DC: And that's good.
LT: And that's clearly Jane and everybody, I just had a tough conversation with, with our son Jake last night, but everybody goes through, you know, difficult times.
And if you got to keep putting one foot in front of the other to keep moving and you're such a classic example of that in such a great way. So your stories are amazing. You've done a great job of that.
So, D should we go to the next section?
DC: Let's do it.
LT: All right. What's Poppin?
DC: What's Poppin'?
LT: So Jane, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. So do you want to lead off or shall I?
DC: Would you do the honors brother?
LT: I'd be happy to. So in light of Jane joining, I, I, this is a pet peeve I've been wanting to share for a long time and we've danced in and around this, on the show. And we certainly talk about this a lot in context for our business. So myself living in Silicon Valley for almost half of my life, this is my large pet peeve.
And it's about how Steve Jobs shunned market research. Right. People bring that up so often with, with Steve Jobs and or market research. So here's a controversial take. Maybe Steve Jobs would have been even more successful with Next that really wasn't successful until, you know, they had great technology, but in the marketplace it was not successful. And numerous other product launches. If he actually embraced research I had heard many, a tech founder use the Steve Jobs view as their reason for not doing research. The problem is Steve Jobs was ridiculously brilliant. So he was able to still be successful. What makes anyone think that they're as smart as Steve Jobs?
The reality is I think it is super important to do whatever you can to increase the odds of success. For me, the best research does not make decisions for you, but helps inform you to make better decisions and, or enhance your decision-making. Seems like that is exactly what Jane is really doing with Launch Pop. What are your thoughts?
DC: Jane?
Jane Lee: Yeah. I mean, it's so funny because like I'll give you a good example of like a company that we worked with where like the founder, did not listen to like the research. So there's like this, this bar, it's a nootropics bar. Do you guys know what a nootropics is?
Yeah, so he he's a founder of a nootropics bar and he launched it and we didn't do any of the branding for it. We came on board to do the growth marketing for it. Cause we offer that service at Launch Pop and we're driving traffic to his home page. And the cost of acquisition for a $25 bar was literally like $90 and no one was converting and we were like, what is happening right now? And so what we did was we created a bunch of different landing pages, landing pages that all had different copy on it. We changed the copy on it to one of the landing pages. Didn't have the word nootropics on it. It actually said this is a protein bar with a boost.
And then we tried a bunch of other landing pages. That one that said, this is a protein bar with a booth, had a $7 cost of acquisition versus the one going to the homepage was $90. And we brought this, we brought this to the, to the founder and said, look like clearly people, when they see the words nootropics, like they don't understand what it is like.
Yes. Like, you know, Big cities understand what it is. But I think like middle of America is still a very new concept and it's almost very intimidating. Like what is the nootropics in my food? Why don't we actually rebrand the company so that it's a protein bar of the boost. And then over time, educate them on what nootropics are.
Right. The founder looked at it and was like, no, because the founder didn't want to be a founder of a protein bar. He wanted to be a founder of a nootropics bar.
LT: Right.
Jane Lee: So that's like a good example of like, I think founders or, or marketers that like get and fall in love with this idea. And don't listen to data or people are like customers.
It might end up being like one of the most unprofitable decisions you make by sticking with something, just because you yourself loves that idea. So I think like listening to consumers and data is so, so important. And I mentioned this before, but it's like we all grew up with very different experiences and America is so big and there's so many different types of people.
And we all don't know what, like someone random in Wisconsin is thinking, right. And what products they're exposed to. But if you want to get the massive America into your funnel and get them as customers, you have to come at it with an empathetic kind of perspective. So yeah, that's what I think
LT: That's a great take. D, I got to hear from you on this.
DC: I'm going to be the contrarian here and started talking about Steve Jobs and his limit rest and power, by the way, his lamenting research. Two things first is there's a saying that many of us here in business and beyond. The customer is always right. Well, that's bullshit sometimes the customer's wrong very wrong.
So I don't believe that lock, stock, and barrel. And number two is it depends on the person for me, Larry and Jane. If you're a savant, a true savant, maybe you do know something that other people don't know. I think Steve Jobs largely built shit for himself, that he thought was dope, and he thought if I think it's dope, y'all y'all are gonna think it's dope.
Jimmy Iovine, co-founder of Beats, former music executive with Interscope Records, litany of different artists that he is helped become global icons. If there's somebody coming out, a new artist, and they go, okay, we can either do focus groups with a hundred different people and get their opinion on the music. Or we could go to Jimmy's house in Malibu or in Beverly Hills and say, yo, Jimmy, sit down and listen to this and tell me what you think I want to hear from Jimmy. I want to hear from Jimmy. So I think it depends on the individual. Now, if we're talking about regular executives, they're not savants. In that case, I say, get as much data as possible and follow the breadcrumbs. But if you're a savant, I say, be aware of the data, but trust your instincts on what, where you got to go. That's my, that's my take on it.
LT: I love your take, and by the way trust your instincts, which has been very successful for a DC his entire career, because that was the, that was the foundation to Obey Your Thirst for Sprite, by the way which, which DC did, Jane, in case you didn't.
So I D I, I love your take my bigger point is that I've seen so many tech founders use that as an excuse, sort of like, oh, I don't need research. Guess what, dude? You aren't a savant.
DC: Yeah, you ain't Steve Jobs, bro.
LT: No. So that's my point. You ready for yours?
DC: I'm ready. I'm ready. Inspired by Jane. I'm going to go into the domain of entrepreneurship. I've said on this podcast, before that if someone told me what was required and what sacrifices I would need to make to be an entrepreneur, I'm not so sure that I would have done it. I think I would've done it. If they painted the whole gory picture. I think I still would've done it, but I would have entered with far more trepidation than I did.
Going back to what you said in the get comfy section about sacrificing everything. I'm here with my daughter, my oldest daughter, Jane. I have two other daughters. They're 21, 23 and 25. Haley's the eldest. Lauren's my middle girl. And Sydney is my baby. Not so much baby. And, and she's the tallest one in the family, Sydney.
There were decisions that my former wife and I, Valerie, made. Where I was fully cognizant that the sacrifice was not just mine. It was a family sacrifice and these things ached my soul ached. I could not believe that I was even in the position to have to make these decisions with my former wife regarding tough choices on what would be paid, what would not be paid.
The, the sacrificing of what would have been a typical future in terms of investment and return and that kind of thing. Just tough. But we did it, we did it. My former wife and I are no longer together and former, and I continue to walk that path now. So what's popping for me, Jane and layering is giving our Brand Nerds a real world view of what it's like to be an entrepreneur, not this fanciful stuff that you read about, not the stuff that, that, where it looks like, oh, wow.
They had a couple of things going on, but not so much nearly every business. Now I don't care whether it's a one-person business or a 10,000 person business experiences near death experiences, many die. And so the, the, the thing I'd like the brand nerds to know is that when you start this journey, this was popping for me, travel with your defibrillator, because you're going to need it.
You're going to need those paddles. So that's, what's popping for me.
LT: Love to hear your thoughts, Jane?
Jane Lee: No, I, I completely agree. Yeah. And I think like it's actually so nice to meet other like, entrepreneurs that like have gone through it and like, it's almost like, like you just connect with them on like this deeper level of pain.
Cause like, cause like of all of the, yeah. And like things like, it sucks. Like my relationship suffered then too. And it was, it was really hard. Yeah. And it's, it's like, it's like a ripple effect when your life is taken over by your company. So so yeah, but, but it's also like important to like, I think have a, if you can, if you can have a good support system around you, like you had your daughters, right? Like they like probably motivated you and they yeah, and same with me. It's just like having the friends and family that could like, just make me feel like everything was okay. That was like the lifesaver for me. So, yeah. Yeah.
DC: Larry?
LT: Well, you know, let's be truthful, you know, we at Brands Beats, and, Bytes, and Brand Positioning Doctors, you know, we are entrepreneurs and we've experienced mountains and valleys, just like every entrepreneurs do. And so, as you're telling these stories, I know Jeff is back there and I know DC and we're relating that to them all too well.
And, and so it's really important that we all convey this not to scare anyone. It's the opposite. It's more to say, you know, like I, I mentioned before, we're all going to go through peaks and valleys and the roller coaster of life, and you just got to keep putting your one foot forward. And if you really do believe in yourself and believe in what you do, then you will come out the other end in a, in a much better place.
Because to your point before that key word of resilience is built and you're actually that much better than you were before. So that, that that's my take on it. And I'm so glad we were so happy to have you Jane, because of your mix of, we have the brand management background and then entrepreneur, so we relate just on that very surfacey level, but for you really you know, providing the, the underneath of it all is just been fantastic, really happy.
DC: Okay. I got three quick things before we go to the show close. The first is an analog that explains this whole entrepreneur thing, I believe. Many of us have gone into relationships with people where we think it's going to go one way. We think we have a pretty good understanding of our partner or significant other, and then the shit goes left while we're in it. And after it goes left, many of us go, okay, so, either I got to get out or I try to stick with it a little longer. And then eventually you arrive at the conclusion that this just cannot work. And then you're thinking, oh, I've spent weeks, months, years, whatever the time is trying to make this relationship work.
I just did not know that this person was this way. I did not know that. And it's because of life circumstances, pressure, growth, growing apart, you name it. All right. What we're trying to do Brand Nerds is entrepreneurship is like that. You get in relationship with the business. You get in relationship with colleagues, you get in relationship with clients and you don't know how it's going to go.
And so what we're trying to do now is letting you know that it can go left in a hurry. So just know that walking into the relationship as that would be valuable, walking into a personal relationship. That's the analog. Number two is I want to thank my former wife, Valerie Odom Cobbin. She was ride-or-die, with me every step of the way. Never doubted anything. We made these decisions in partnership and I am I am so thankful for her. And then third is is my daughter Hailey, who I've mentioned is here. Now Hailey said to me, she's, she's been working on our business Jane now for nearly a year, next month it'll be a year.
LT: Thank God for that too.
DC: Thank God for that.
LT: We'd be in a much worse place without Hailey.
DC: And it'll, it'll be a year. I'll bring her over to meet you when the when the product ends if we have time. In any event, she says to me, at some point, while she's working here, she says, dad I didn't know exactly what was going on when I was growing up.
I just knew you were gone a lot. You weren't around a lot. And this made me sad. She said dad now, watching you work, being here, watching you work, I understand. I understand. I almost cried. I almost cried listening to my baby come to an awareness, a consciousness of what her mother and I were attempting to do for them.
Yep. Cool. Cool.
LT: Should we hit the learnings D?
DC: Let's do it.
LT: Do you want to go first or shall I?
DC: Hit it brother?
LT: Okay. So I've got to set two sets of learnings. It's the Jane really recommendations for entrepreneurs and then overall in life. So here's the one that Jane leave help for entrepreneurs.
So, first one to be an entrepreneur. If you're not willing to give up everything to start a company, then don't do it. That's number one. If you are willing and you do have stupid confidence, let it flow. The third one is learned about fundraising. It's absolutely paramount for success. And the last one for the entrepreneurs is be open to pivot. Don't love your product too much. Listen to what's going on around you, including your customers. And then I've just got four more overall sometimes in crisis like Jane, did you have to slow down to speed up. Three more, no matter what you do, it's better to stress test it. Create community. And the last one, which I love the most, just live your truest self and let life happen from there.
Those are mine.
DC: Dope, Larry. Jane. If you listened to any of our podcasts at the end on our learnings, you'll be familiar with me attempting to connect with the the, the send you in five. Of the person who was on the zoom screen. And sometimes it comes to me, sometimes it doesn't, but something has come to me about you.
During our time together, I'll start with this. I added up the number of companies that you have either worked for and, or been associated with and, or have invested in. And these are just from what Larry read. So I may be short here. It's 15, you're a young person, it's 15 different problems. So you've, you've kind of touched and moved around 15 different companies.
Second, you were an entrepreneur 24 years of age would silly b intimate. So you made a move early in your life. And with Launch Pop, you deal with entrepreneurs and founders regularly. So somehow you've been able to move your way around all of these different environments and people. So let's put that in one bucket.
Now I've got a question. Do you like music, Jane? Okay. All right. Okay. What's your favorite? What's your favorite kind of music?
Jane Lee: I actually love Hip Hop and R&B.
DC: Hip Hop and R&B, okay. Do you like to dance?
Jane Lee: Yeah, I actually was a really serious dancer when I was younger.
DC: Yeah. I'm going to tell you in a minute why I asked that question.
Okay. I knew that. I'm going to tell you. One of my favorite movies is a movie starring Kevin Costner called Dances With Wolves. So those not familiar with the story. Have you ever seen it?
Jane Lee: Yes.
DC: So for those who are not familiar with the movie, Kevin Costner is in an, in the army, the U.S. Army, and he finds himself deserted and he comes across a Native American actually several.
So he's by himself and they, they start to approach him. So he thinks he's, he thinks he's about to die. He then arrives at a place where he's like, okay the, these are humans. So let me just kind of figure out if we can make some connection, they ended up making a connection. He ends up converting from being a officer in the Army or whatever the military brigade was or the U.S. to becoming a part of the Native American family.
He became one of those. In other words, he found a way to dance with wolves, not the people, but the wolves who are honored and considered to be spiritual beings among Native Americans at that time. So that's hence the name of the movie Dances With Wolves, this dude was very much so not comfortable dancing with wolves, probably didn't want to be around wolves, became comfortable dancing with wolves. This made him a part of that community and he ended up defending it and risking his life to defend it. Now, your parents, what are their names again? Jane. Okay, got it. Yeah, but what they did is they were dancing with fear. They were dancing with fear, Jane.
They understood that it existed. They weren't quite sure what was going on, but when they were making the move from Korea to Toronto, They had to dance with fear when they were figuring out how to be entrepreneurs, without speaking the language, they were dancing with fear. When they were trying to figure out what you and your brother, how you all would most benefit from this move. Rather significant move. They were dancing with fear.
Let's go back up. 15 companies, entrepreneurial 24, sell that company. Now at Launch Pop, a company that helps entrepreneurs grow their business. You, Jane, dance with fear. You're a dancer. You're not just a dancer in the physical form, which I knew you were.
You are a dancer in the metaphorical and existential form as well. And your dance thing brings joy. I believe to others who are learning how to dance with their fear. That is why I think you are on the planet, Jane, to teach that, to inspire that. Yeah.
That's what I think I got a couple other things though, but yeah. So how has this hitting your soul? And then I got a couple of things.
Jane Lee: Oh my God. I, that really struck my heart. Wow. Yeah. I, you are good at this, D.
DC: Oh, thank you. Thank you. So two other things easy to do when we're blessed to have a soul, like you to talk to. Two things before we we get out of here. The first is you talked about needing to sell your clothing items in order to generate some cash. Puking. Taking meetings lying down. So you wouldn't be up puking because of the stress. And so what people believe in the regular corporate world is that they can compartmentalize. They think they can do that. You cannot do that in entrepreneurship. You cannot do not do not delude yourself into thinking you can do that. Jane is exhibit a. If you could have compartmentalized, you would not have been laying your ass on the ground, trying to avoid pukey. You would have been standing up walking around your place would have been just fine. So don't, don't, don't believe the hype on compartmentalization when you're an entreprenuer.
And then finally this your seaweed story, you and your business partners going to get seaweed and boiling it. And here is the question that I have for the Brand Nerds out there for your career, for your relationships. If you want to be an entrepreneur or not, is. What kind of shit are you willing to eat to get what you really want?
Yeah.
Jane Lee: Question, but it's actually just like hits it right on the head. Like yes.
DC: Yes. All from you, a six goddess all from you, inspired by you.
LT: So Jane, before we leave, do you have anything, any learnings or anything you want to share, including maybe a reaction to a, to what DC just posited.
Jane Lee: I am going to think about what DC just said for probably the next month.
I I'm gonna reach out back to you and let you know my thoughts, but man, this was such a special time. Like I think like you guys actually. Talk about way more than just brands, you know, like it's like, and marketing it's like, it's like tying it with like people's souls and like how that works with, with marketing and brand and this world.
And you guys have something really special. I wouldn't have been able to be so open without you guys being so, just, it made me feel so good and safe in this environment to just speak my truth. So like that's like, yeah. And that's very, very special too. Cause I think like not a lot of people can do that in like on a Zoom level, you know?
Like it really does feel like I'm at a cafe with both of you. Yeah. I'm like sweating right now. It's like, I feel like guys yeah, it just, I just feel like I, I was so lucky to be able to talk to you guys and, and share everything very, very honestly. And then, and then have you guys observed a lot of things that I was saying from my heart and kind of like regurgitate it in a beautiful way. So thank you so much.
DC: Well, thank you.
LT: Thank you. You've been amazing that that's a mic drop for, for us to leave here Jade. Right?
Thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats and Bytes recorded virtually on zoom and a production of KZSU Stanford, 90.1 FM radio worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Joseph Anderson, Jade Tate, Hailey Cobbin, and Tom Dioro.
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And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing with another great business leader as our guest.