Ann MacTaggart - Management Attention is a Precious Resource

Ann and Derek explore the idea that management attention is a precious resource that we should learn how to manage better.

Ann and Derek are at Unconstrained.

Full shownotes on the Essential Dynamics Wiki.

This series is proudly produced by the team at Road 55- located in Edmonton, Alberta. For more information, please visit: www.road55.ca 

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Reed: 00:21

And it's another Essential Dynamics day. I am so glad to be back. My name is Reed McColm, and I am your host. I've been on vacation a great deal, but, I am

Reed: 00:34

delighted to be back today to, introduce Ann MacTaggart. She is wonderful.

Reed: 00:41

Ann, are you there?

Ann: 00:42

I am, Reed. Thanks for inviting me.

Reed: 00:45

I am so glad you're here. I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. And, as I'm contractually obligated to, also introduce, there's mister Derek Hudson. Are Derek, are you there?

Derek: 00:58

Reed, happy to be here. Thanks for, thanks for having me on my show.

Reed: 01:02

You're it is my pleasure, really, honestly. I I wanted to come back, Derek, because last time we talked, doc, when I was, when I was dropping in to see how you were doing, We got a little distracted as we often do and, and discussed nuclear annihilation. I was wondering if we completed the topic on business leaders because I still don't know how to be a business leader, And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that.

Derek: 01:31

So so many thoughts, Reid. One of the things we found on Essential Dynamics, the podcast, and and the framework itself, is a lot of things that apply to business also apply to us in our personal lives or in broader society.

Reed: 01:46

But That's why I listen.

Derek: 01:48

But today, we we would like to focus on one aspect of business leadership that we think doesn't could could warrant a lot more study. Okay. And Ann and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this topic. So and that and that topic, we actually initially addressed this goes going back a long ways, in episode 25, which was, over two years ago. Oh.

Derek: 02:17

Yeah. April 2021. We talked about management attention is the ultimate constraint.

Reed: 02:23

Management attention is the ultimate constraint. That's one of my favorite episodes. Isn't that the one that I I keep getting I keep seeing a squirrel?

Derek: 02:32

Yeah. We we got distracted in that episode by our own short attention spans.

Reed: 02:40

Ah.

Derek: 02:41

And we had we had actually some really good tips on, how we could focus our own, you know, knowledge work a little bit better, your writing and my consulting and stuff. And so today, what we want to do, I think, is talk about the idea that the management team of an organization has limited capacity to pay attention to things. And in fact, it's the most precious resource of the whole organization, and and we don't usually talk about it that way. And so today, we wanna talk about it that way.

Reed: 03:16

Okay. Okay. Now what I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong because I I sometimes am, deliberately so that we have something to talk about, is what I hear you saying is that time is the most precious resource we have. Is that correct?

Derek: 03:34

Well well, time is it's it's one way to look at it, but we wanna get a little bit more specific.

Reed: 03:42

Oh, okay. Please.

Derek: 03:43

And so I'm I think I'm gonna bounce it over to Anne and,

Reed: 03:48

she

Derek: 03:49

Yeah. So I can stop talking. Anne, why don't you just share what you've learned about how important seeing management attention as a critical resource is?

Ann: 04:06

Well, thank you for the question. I'm on the panel. How important it is is highly related to what I've seen is is highly related to how big the problems are or perceived to be in front of a leader. So leaders, by that, I mean, leaders often will talk to us in our practice about, you know, they're so busy. There's so many things going on.

Ann: 04:38

They're trying to solve problems. They're trying to solve their people's problems, and they don't know even where to start. And in our practice, we often talk to them about, you know, settle down. Let's have an accountability pro coach. Let's have a conversation.

Ann: 04:58

And that is the first step to identifying that they're not paying attention to everything. They're trying to pay attention to everything and maybe not the right things. Okay. And so

Reed: 05:10

Let's take a hit up hypothetical, if I may. Yeah. Production is down. People are the perception is that the employees are, split focused. They're doing too many projects at once and or they think so.

Reed: 05:29

How do I fix that if I'm the boss? And what do you mean a conversation starts? With whom do I speak? You?

Ann: 05:39

Yes. Yes.

Derek: 05:41

Anne Anne, for sure. Yes.

Ann: 05:42

Yeah. I think the conversation, at some point, a leader will realize that he can't figure it out all in their own head. And so having somebody to talk to, a guide, for example, at Unconstrained is one of those resources. And, having that conversation with somebody who who's not in the busyness helps to, have an accountability coach, and we can call them that. But we can also have somebody who's helping them to come from being in the busyness and in the, in the in the business, quote, unquote, to being elevated above the business to allow them to sort of focus and see what's actually going on.

Ann: 06:37

And we often don't label it in those conversations as, oh, you know, you're not paying attention or you're this is management's attention. And I would say management attention and labeling it as such is more a conceptual way. But But when we have the conversation with the leader, we're not talking specifically about management attention. What we're doing is we're focusing their attention so that they can start to work through where they're stuck.

Reed: 07:06

Okay.

Derek: 07:08

So, Reid, one of the ways that, that I kinda think about and I think it's even our most recent podcast. I'm not sure because I've quoted more than once. Einstein saying we can't solve the problems, that we created at the level we were at when we created them. We have to get to a different level of thinking. And if management attention is limited, one of the things that's hard for management is to figure out what to pay attention to.

Derek: 07:39

Because, as Anne says, you're in the busyness.

Reed: 07:42

Yes.

Derek: 07:43

And so you're just keeping up, and it's very hard to step back and say, hang on. What's the most important thing for me to look at? I would suggest another way of looking at this is, I'm convinced that the most valuable time that anyone spends in an organization is the time that the leader spends, thinking about everything else. So the the quiet time that a leader has for reflection and, thinking about what he should be thinking about is the most value can be the most valuable time. And then the second most valuable time is when the leadership team is doing that.

Derek: 08:32

After the leader, the CEO or whatever, has, you know, set up the question or whatever that the leadership team can, can deal with. So I think there's kind of three levels here that we could talk about. One is recognizing that management attention is a scarce resource.

Reed: 08:52

Yes.

Derek: 08:53

Yes. That it's precious and it should not be wasted. The second is to then pull it out of the business and to look at the business as a system. And then the third thing is to get good at spending your time operating the business as a system. I used to, I think I might have shared this before, but I used to pull myself out of the business when our company was on the campus of the University of Alberta by walking across the street to the library and, just sitting there with a pad of paper and nothing else.

Derek: 09:32

So I'd done the thing about, I need to get to the next level, but what I didn't know how to do then is what to think about. I just knew I had to not be in the day to day, but I I didn't have, certainly didn't have someone to talk to. I didn't take that opportunity. I probably did have people to talk to to try to figure out what I should what I, you know, what I actually should be thinking about, and then how I should be spending my time when now that I've carved it out. So carving it out is the is an important step.

Derek: 10:01

But beyond that, you could be far more effective in using your time and attention.

Reed: 10:08

Okay. I'm I'm a director. I'm a, I'm trying to trying to put myself in your shoes. I'm a businessman. I have a business.

Reed: 10:19

My major problem is that I think I can do everyone's job better than than they can.

Derek: 10:31

You problem. You are not a fictional character.

Reed: 10:34

I'm not.

Derek: 10:35

No. No. And in fact, there's another level of that, which I've actually heard, which is and you care more about everything than everybody else.

Reed: 10:46

Okay. I'm Steve Jobs. I can do everything better than you than my employees.

Derek: 10:53

Right. You can do it better and you care more. So literally, I heard this. The CEO said, well, how can I let someone who doesn't care as much about the product as I do to let them do it? Well, here's the thing.

Derek: 11:06

There's only so much time and attention that one person can place on anything.

Reed: 11:12

Okay.

Derek: 11:13

So if you wanna have a, you know, one person business, then you have the the right to do that. If, if you start to

Reed: 11:22

have I have a one person business. It's called unemployment.

Derek: 11:26

Yes. No. No. It's called acting. They're they're similar.

Reed: 11:29

Very similar. Yeah.

Derek: 11:30

They're similar. But once you get more people involved, once you make that promise to a customer, then, now we have to take management's attention and say, what is the most valuable thing to focus on? Which is going to mean that there are other people doing other things in the organization.

Reed: 11:49

Okay.

Ann: 11:50

I have something to add.

Reed: 11:52

Anne has something to add. I'd like to hear what it is.

Ann: 11:55

Derek, you said, once you make a promise to a customer and, you know, that's the other thing is that leaders in the organizations, they make promises to their employees. They make promises to themselves. And, all these promises or commitments that they're making to as part of their, you know, place in society, let alone their place at their office, make it so that their their attention is then super divided or can be super divided. And that's what we're kinda talking about. How do you narrow, narrow the attention to do the right thing for all of those people or things you make promises to?

Reed: 12:47

Alright. How I guess that's that's the challenge. How do I narrow my focus? If I don't respect my employees as much as I respect well, I don't respect my employees' talent. I don't respect my employees' skills as much as I respect my own.

Reed: 13:05

I think that's different than respecting a person.

Ann: 13:08

Mhmm. Yep. For sure. Yep.

Reed: 13:10

Yep. So how how do you solve that?

Derek: 13:14

Well, one of the one of the things that we do is, we try to help leaders step outside of the busyness, step outside of being part of the production line, and to have them look at their business as a system. Okay. And when you look at a business as a system, you can we can flow that right into essential dynamics. There's a purpose. And then there is a set of steps, a process, or a path that are done by people.

Derek: 13:48

So we have our people, our path, and our purpose, which is a great way to sort of break up a system. Because what you don't wanna do is break up a system by carving it into functions. Like we typically do in organization chart, engineering, sales, finance, human resources. Because then everyone gets inside their little box and tries to optimize their box, which is not the same as optimizing the system. So we really wanna take a systems view.

Derek: 14:17

And when you take a systems view, you can identify the part of the system that can't keep up with the rest of the system. And that's that's your lever I understand that. So Expand

Reed: 14:29

on that.

Derek: 14:30

So in in a any kind of process, whether it's physical goods or intellectual or whatever, there are some things that can move things along quickly and others that take more time. And we call the thing that's the slowest part of that process, the constraint.

Reed: 14:48

Right.

Derek: 14:49

And when you improve the system at the constraint, you get more output. When you improve the system anyplace else, the overall production is still held up by the constraint, and so you don't get more output. So that sounds like we talked about this on earlier episode, constraints aren't necessarily bad, but they are a key to managing the system because that's where you want to focus your time and attention, is the most limited part of your system. And so that's one one way is take a system's view and then find the part of the system that needs your attention.

Reed: 15:27

Well, I was going to ask that about Anne. Anne earlier talked about not bringing in an outside witness and unbiased. Someone who has I I heard somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight necessarily, but is wise enough to see, I guess, where the con where the constraint is. Is that correct, Anne?

Ann: 15:49

Is. I also think that the, taking that system view adds, a degree of separation. And so it allows, you know, the calm or the more unbiased view for the leader to very much focus on looking at the one system and then identifying where this other's constraints are. But if you can get a handle on your attention and really understanding your business, your business model or your value creation system, you can then focus all that attention to find out how to further improve flow. Can I add one?

Ann: 16:40

I wanna go back to something also that Derek said. So Derek said that management attention is the most we believe that it's the most scarce resource. If we take the systems view the other thing he said, sort of step three is get good at or make it a habit to have that focused management attention, which then will improve flow for all of the things. But you gotta start with the leader because if the leader starts to model this, reflective behavior and makes it a a regular habit, then that can then transcend into the leadership team. And, and then the whole company will then have an the ability to find other constraints and further improve flow.

Derek: 17:34

So and you're suggesting that the leader's example of doing this can be a powerful tool for improvement in the organization, which is different, Reid, than the the leader you described, that we all know who needs to touch everything. Yeah. Because the leader who touches everything limits capacity all over the place. Yeah. Whereas the leader who teaches people to think of everything as a system gives capacity, all over the all over with, you know, with all the people.

Derek: 18:13

And and so one of the things that's really tricky is you start a business because you're good at something, and then you find out that now you're a manager.

Reed: 18:21

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's take another hypothetical, if I may. I own a restaurant.

Reed: 18:30

I want it to be a sandwich restaurant. I want it to primarily be lunch and, simple foods, that people can come in and grab a bite. My chef happens to be really good at a particular item on the menu and has elaborated, and it's become a dinner item. It's the my customers are beginning to figure it out. It's really my only dinner item.

Reed: 19:00

It's it's a full meal. No. I mean, all of sandwiches are meals, but, I'm trying to say it's more elaborate. What do I do? Do I allow the business to morph, or do I take the item off the off the options?

Reed: 19:20

I don't know. I'm just throwing out an option. But I I know I'm not the chef this guy is. I know I'm not. So I don't wanna replace him and become a better chef.

Derek: 19:32

Sir, Reid, look, this is the this is the risk we run when we have, a playwright.

Reed: 19:38

Oh, sorry.

Derek: 19:38

As our host. He he he now we now we, now we've created a situation.

Ann: 19:43

Now I'm hungry.

Derek: 19:44

And I'm hungry, you know, and we're cheering for these characters. Let let me say, this is this is one thing that Anne and I have had a lot of fun with helping organizations.

Reed: 19:56

Yeah.

Derek: 19:56

Is, is we call it the value creation monitoring system, VCMS, it's got a name. And one of the things we do is we look at the different product lines an organization has, and how they contribute to the organization's overall profitability. And there are a lot of ways of doing that incorrectly. And, the accounting textbooks that I have behind me, actually I threw those away, would have you do it in a way that would, probably you'd probably make bad decisions. So I don't want to get into the technical aspects, but one of the things we're really interested in is the ability for an owner to look at something like a full dinner offering and say, is that something that's gonna add value in our organization or is it gonna take it away?

Derek: 20:50

And and either could be true depending on the circumstances, But but the calculations could some of our accounting colleagues could mess the calculations up so much that you would decide not to do something that's actually a good idea. And I hope we get lots of I hope we get lots of calls and letters on that topic because that's a conversation we should probably have. But I don't think a podcast is the place to have that kind of conversation, even with other accounts.

Reed: 21:19

Okay. I'm sorry. I maybe I I, came in with

Derek: 21:22

No. No. That's great. And you probably have another perspective on that scenario because this is a great scenario. I, like, I really think it's great.

Ann: 21:30

I think I I do read. The thing the, picture that you just painted for us was, one of, you know, a manager or an owner has has choices. And, at but at the end of the day, when you're looking at the total system, the value creation is what's, in the eyes of your customer ultimately will help you to, make the choices. And is it one or the other? Is it both and and or is it both and a bunch more?

Ann: 22:13

But having you know, we kinda take this back to management attention in that if you're just kinda rolling with it, that's when you start to try to be everything to every person or every customer. Whereas if you can, step back from that, look at the whole system, maybe maybe go all geek out on, the value creation monitoring system, do some calculations, or maybe you can just talk to your customers to help you make that choice. But if you don't step out of it, you won't be able to see what the impact could or would be otherwise.

Derek: 22:56

That's awesome.

Reed: 22:58

What I'm trying to create or in my illustration is, a divergent purpose x and a purpose y. I'm trying to create a a situation where, my mission statement or what I think I'm producing as a company may diverge from what I originally set out to do.

Derek: 23:26

Hey, Reed. That's that's, that's awesome, and I'm apologize for being slow to pick that up. So if you said purpose x was, you know, simple comfort food sandwiches, just grab a bite. Now it's getting all elaborate. And, is that getting conflicting with that purpose?

Reed: 23:44

Well, I know I know sometimes organizations become what what go beyond what was the original what was the original

Derek: 23:54

Yeah.

Reed: 23:55

Thought for them.

Derek: 23:57

So so I I think one of the things from that, that that, Anne helped us with is anytime you're have an opportunity to move away from your very, very core business, you have to count the cost of distracting management attention. And it may be worth it. It may be worth it if there are systems there, if someone, you know, below the leader can run with it. But we have both seen highly creative leaders who, chase shiny objects and dilute their attention so much that they're less effective at what they started doing.

Ann: 24:37

And dilute the attention of of the people that work for them.

Reed: 24:42

By okay. No. That's interesting, Anna. Is it by showing an interest in an irrelevant or an, a dis the distraction is actually hurting the company. Is that what you're suggesting?

Ann: 24:56

Absolutely.

Derek: 24:57

Yeah. So we're running out of time here, and we're gonna do this again just with this crew. And so I think we're setting up another topic. Or I I I'm we're gonna continue to talk about management attention. We have not finished it.

Derek: 25:12

But but I think I think

Reed: 25:13

we wanna talk about that. Let's talk about that. So we should have an we should have an episode devoted to management attention.

Derek: 25:18

Right. And and we need more than one we

Ann: 25:20

got distracted.

Derek: 25:21

We got distracted. So so let's let's pick it up. And I think what we wanted to do with this episode, which we've done, and Reid, you can take us out, is management attention is a precious resource of the organization that we don't tend to manage well. Oh, good. So let's maybe pick it up on let's talk about best practices for manage for managing management attention.

Reed: 25:46

Man, it's tricky. Isn't it? It's tricky.

Derek: 25:48

I'm actually doing it.

Reed: 25:49

I'm actually doing it to the podcast.

Derek: 25:52

That's right.

Reed: 25:52

I am actually distracting the podcast. Wow. That is, I I never thought I had that power.

Derek: 26:00

It's very meta.

Reed: 26:02

It is. I You're

Ann: 26:03

a true leader.

Reed: 26:05

I feel that way. I really I I just I'm going to give myself a raise. I think we've had a great discussion though, and I brought up some stuff I we have discussed some things that I find just terrific, to have a conversation about. Please, can we come back and do this again next week? I'd like to do that.

Derek: 26:27

Let's do it.

Reed: 26:28

I I so appreciate it because, I'm very lonely. Alright. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening to the podcast. Derek and Anne Anne, where is where can we find you? What how if somebody wants to talk to you, how do we contact you?

Ann: 26:46

You can find myself as well as Derek and some other guides at getunconstrained.com.

Reed: 26:54

Nice. Oh, I like that. I was specifically interested in talking to you because, you know, I've talked to Derek. And, and this is where I am with my life. So clearly, it hasn't had much of effect.

Reed: 27:07

Derek, where can people find you?

Derek: 27:09

I'm, alphabetically under ann at getunconstrained.com.

Reed: 27:15

Well, I hope people find you as well. I want to thank Derek Hudson for allowing me to come in and hijack his show. And, I really enjoy Anne McTaggart, our special guest today. And, in the studio, Brynn Griffiths is always there to to, give us a smile and, and be our friend. I am delighted to say, ladies and gentlemen, consider your quest.