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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. If you wanna watch or listen to this podcast, uh, in video form, you can do that by going to YouTube. Or to Spotify, and you can watch the interview, not just listen to it. So that's an option for you if you want to do that as well. Um, you're gonna hear me say in this conversation a couple times, uh, how, uh, my guest is controversial.
Um, I, I, I'm trying to kind of branch out and have more in depth, harder conversations, not just in this conversation, but many of the conversations we've had in the last few months and years. And for the ones to come, like I just want to have a lot of conversations that challenge our thinking, that get us thinking outside the box.
Um, you know, we'll, maybe we agree with everything. Maybe we disagree with everything, that the point is that we're just having rich, meaningful conversations that really challenge us and make sure that. We're always landing on truth. So anyway, as you hear me say that today, uh, talking about, oh, this is controversial, um, that's on purpose.
I want to have deeper, richer conversations on this show. So just know that that's intentional. Part of what we're doing here at That Tired is we're trying to grow to be the men that God's called us to be, to think well, and to live righteously. Um, speaking of which, if you're brand new to Dad, tired and you're just stumbling upon the podcast, we are more than just a podcast.
We have all kinds of resources to help. Equip you as the spiritual leader of your home. If you go to dad tire.com, you'll see we have hats and we have books for you as a man. We have devotionals. We have, um, uh, this brand new, uh, devotional cards that we just put out. So if you're, you don't really know how to get your kids to talk about Jesus or how to have intentional conversations about Jesus with your kids, if that feels awkward or clunky to you, um, you can pick up these dinnertime devotional cards and read them around the dinner table or in car rides.
It makes it very casual and easy. Uh, it's an easy way for you to kind of point the conversation back to Jesus in really casual way. So again, those are the dinnertime Discussional cards. We just put those up. We also have children's books for you to read to your kids. Uh, I just, if you're watching, I just pointed the Wrong Direction.
That's a brand new children's book that we have there. Um, so you can pick up that on Amazon or@dadtire.com. You'll also see our annual retreat. This is something we do every year. We get together and we do our big annual retreat that's about to close up. So if you want to come to that, make sure you come to that.
Um. We also do, sorry to bombard you with like announcements. I feel like I'm doing church announcements right now, uh, which nobody listens to. So if please hang with me, um, if you have not been to or you have seen, we do these one day conferences all around the country and world every year I. These are usually booked six months to a year in advance.
So if your church wants to host one of these, we would love to get in touch with you and talk to you about what it looks like to host one of these conferences. Again, we do them all over the country, all over the world, and we would love to come to your church and equip the men of your church to be the men that God's called them to be.
If you want to be part of that, shoot us an email hello@dadtire.com, or you can go to dad tire.com and click the one day conferences tab and you can kind of get more information about what it would look like for you and your church. To host one of these conferences. Wanna thank my friends over at Reformation Heritage Books for sponsoring today's episode?
I love the website. I love their resources and what they're doing to put good godly theologically sound resources in the hands of all kinds of folks. And, uh, I'm a big fan of that, uh, here at Dat Tired. If you wanna start reading the Puritans, which I suggest that you do, um, I would highly suggest you check out this series that they have called the Puritan Treasure Treasures for today.
It makes these riches, the riches of these godly writers of old, um, accessible for the modern reader. Maybe if you've read some Puritan stuff, you're like, that sounds really good and I like it. Just hard to read 'cause it's not in our everyday language where they put it in updated modern language. Um, and they also give helpful introductions and they have these, um, they, they.
They kind of put these in in a way that is easy for you to read. They've got work from writers like John Owen, Jeremiah Burrows, uh, and more, and they're just, it's a great starting point for a curious reader. Somebody who might be curious about the Puritan, um, writings, which again, I highly suggest that you check out.
So they have this resource, Puritan Treasures for today. I try to read a chapter of these before I go to bed, uh, if possible just to kind of get my mind thinking about godly things before I head to bed, either this, um, and or some scripture. Um, before last thing I do before I fall asleep. If you go to Heritage books.org forward slash puritan treasures, you can use the promo code Dad Tire.
They'll actually give you 10% off your order. Again, that's Heritage books.org/puritan treasures and use the promo code Dad Tire to get 10% off. That being said, let's dive into today's episode.
Pastor Wilson, so excited for you to be on our show today. Um, for those who may not be familiar with you, tell us who you are and what you're up to these days. Okay. My name is Douglas Wilson. I'm the senior pastor at Christchurch in Moscow, Idaho, which is up in the panhandle of Idaho. And, um, I'm pastor is my day job, but I also do a good, good bit of writing.
Mm-hmm. And have written a number of books on family and child rearing. Yeah. Which I, I wish we had several hours to spend together. 'cause I wanna pick your brain on all the, uh, things, family and child rearing. Um, before we jump into all of that, uh, I actually heard you, I, I think I was traveling, I was on an airplane.
And, uh, I, I was first introduced to you, um, probably like many through your Tucker Carlson podcast, uh, interview with him. Um, and, uh, since what you descr what you talked about on that podcast and, and what you shared was very intriguing to me. I ended up kind of going in deep dive into you, your writing, your, your sermons.
Um, and what I found is other people say that you're controversial, and I've even maybe heard you kind of allude to that. But after listening to hours of content from you, uh, I'm trying to figure out what is it about you that makes you controversial? Yeah. Um, what would you say? Like, why would, why, what would you say?
Uh, the reason is people would say you're controversial. Yeah, it would, it would depend on the topic. So for example, uh, some people who think I'm controversial and are, and I put them off their feed, um, would say, well, Wilson's done some good work in education, but if you get him into politic, get him on political subjects, then he's a firebrand or something like that.
Uh, so a or history, um, uh, the, and then I, so that's one of the things where people just disagree with certain takes that I have and have reacted emotionally. And then there are other people who I think are opposed to our broader project, uh, which we summarize, uh, by our tagline, which is all of Christ for all of life.
And, and they object to that. So holistic approach. Mm-hmm. And so consequently hunt around for a rock to throw, and there are various rocks that they've found. One of, you know, uh, I've been a pastor here for 40, 40 plus years, and our church is our church and church community is the size of a small town.
And so people still in our church community still sin, for example. Mm-hmm. And there've been some, um, uh, molestation cases and, you know, controversial cases, which people then diagnosed from 2000 miles away on. Mm-hmm. So, so the pastoral people are critical of, uh, how we've handled a, an abuse case or something like that.
I see. But they're doing this many ti many times from thousands of miles away years after the fact with only a handful of, um. Of the facts involved. And so that's a handy rock to throw, right? If you don't, if you don't want, um, uh, if you don't wanna listen to the other stuff we're saying. So sometimes it's cultural, historical, sometimes it's doctrinal, sometimes it's, um, just, uh, snark.
Uh, you said that they, um, sometimes get offended by the all of Christ for all of life statement. Who is they and what is so offensive about that? Well, uh, a lot of evangelical Christianity is, is dualistic. Um, where, uh, when you become a Christian, Jesus saves your soul such that you'll go to heaven when you die.
And in the meantime, you should live a decent middle class existence here. Be honest in business and stuff like that, but. There's no real emphasis on cultural transformation. Um, and we are post-millennial in our eschatology. We, we are transformational. We believe that 500 years from now, the fact that millions of Christians were living here ought to make a big difference in what goes on and doesn't go on.
So, um, so it is, it is that sort of thing. So, yeah, when you, for, for some of our audience, we've got a lot of young dads listening who are just, they're working their, uh, nine to five job and just trying to figure out how to survive their marriage and, and family life. So can you describe maybe in layman's terms, when you say we're post-millennial in our theologic, our theology, what do you mean by that specifically and how it relates to somebody who might take offense to.
What you're saying. So most um, most North American evangelicals are pre-millennial in their eschatology, which translates into the world's falling apart. It's going to get worse and worse, and we're living in the end times and the antichrist is about to take over. The challenge with that is that sometimes people fall into the trap of thinking, well, you don't polish brass on a sinking ship.
Um, the only thing you can do is sort of gather your people together and try to survive. Yeah. Um, that's, that is a very common eschatological view. Uh, we are historically optimistic. That's, that's how I would summarize post millennialism. We are historically optimistic. We believe that before Jesus returns, he will return to raise the quick and the dead.
But before he returns, the Great Commission will be successfully fulfilled. Nations will come to Christ and, uh, dads will learn how to be shepherds and, uh, and leaders in their homes. Hmm. Yeah, I remember you talking about that, uh, in the, in the interview I originally heard you on and talking about how, and that is what gives you hope.
Um, 'cause you spent most of your interview talking about how, you know, we are kind of in this disarray as a, as a people and as a society, but you're actually not hopeless. And that was really, that really fascinated me when you said that. Um, I think I'm one of the biggest reasons, um, that I was in, I, I'm intrigued by you and your story and what you're doing is actually the part of you personally as a man, um, husband and.
Um, father and, and now granddad. Um, not great-granddad, actually. Great. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, thanks. So, I mean, I just have a, a lot of people can talk the talk, you know, people can listen to my podcast, but the reality is I'm a rookie dad. Like my marriage is still fairly new and my, I'm very young in this parenting journey.
Um, and so I don't have a lot of skin in the game yet. You shouldn't put a lot of respect towards me in these areas yet, because I don't have a lot of, I don't have a lot of experience in it. But you, I look at a, a man like you and you've been faithful. You've been faithful to your church and to your wife, and, uh, you have kids who love Jesus.
I, I'd love to maybe, can you tell our audience, like, give some family background on you, your marriage, your kids, your grandchildren. Okay. That's a great question by the way, because it all comes down to, um, I. It all comes down to people, we're people having to live in this world and we have to, we have to play cards with the hand that we were dealt.
Um, and you're gonna have all kinds of personalities born into your home. Um, and your kids are gonna have to deal with you as people, and you have to deal with them as people. So, um, this goes back, frankly, to my dad, uh, who was converted while he was a midshipman at the Naval Academy. Hmm. So, um, he, uh, didn't have a Christian upbringing, but he was converted as a young adult, uh, while he was in the Navy.
And he graduated in the class of 50, uh, went to, um, went off to, uh, was home ported outta Japan, all through the Korean War. He met my mom there who was a, uh, missionary to Japan. Uh, she had been converted when she was 16. Uh, didn't have a Christian upbringing either. Um, she had been converted, went to Bible school, and then went to the mission field.
Mm-hmm. So, um, my, both my parents were first generation evangelical believers in the post-war era. Mm-hmm. Okay. And at that time, there was virtually nothing available to Christian, uh, husbands and wives and, and Christian parents. Uh, right now there's a huge industry of Christian books and materials and, um, family and marriage stuff.
Uh, there, there's boatloads of material. Now some of it is even pretty good. Um, but there was, there was a real paucity of material. Um, so my, my parents as first generation Christians that didn't have a Christian upbringing to look back to were very, they, they were very consistent. Uh, loving Christians and they just went to the Bible and said, okay, we need to, how are we going to, how are we going to do this?
Yeah. And they, they, uh, extracted certain principles from scripture that don't frequent, don't frequently make it into marriage material. Um, uh, just principles for walking with God. Uh, one of them that I learned from my folks was, we, in our family, we call it keeping short accounts. Um, so, and it's a foundational principle for your relationship with God, your relationship with your, your friends and, and fellow church members, and your relationship with your wife and your husband, and your relationship with your kids.
And keeping short accounts means deal with sin now. Yeah. Don't let it fester. Don't let it wait. Don't let sin accumulate. Deal with it now. And the illustration that I use is, is imagine two homes side by side, uh, five kids in each household. Um, the wives are good friends, the husbands are good friends.
They work at the same company. They both drive the same kind of minivan. Every, everything's the same. Only one house is cluttered and knee deep and debris, and the other house is clean, immaculate. The difference between the two homes is not how many t-shirts get put on in the morning because that's the same.
It's not how many breakfast bowls get used in the morning because that's the same. It's not how many shoes get kicked off or not at the door because that's the same, right? Uh, the two houses. And in short, the two houses get dirty at roughly the same rate of speed. Hmm. The reason one house is clean all the time is because people pick up right away.
Right. They don't, they don't let it, it, it's not, well, we'll do a cleanup. We'll pick up on Saturday. Yeah. And then of course Saturday comes and something arises. And, and so the, and so what I, I cover this is, it's the centerpiece of my pre-marriage counseling. And I lay out this illustration and I tell the young couple, in five years, your marriage is one of those two houses.
Hmm. Okay. In five years, your marriage is one of those two houses. You will either have a culture of deal with sin now pick it up now clean it up now. Or you will have a culture of kick it under the sofa, uh, let it ride. Maybe time will fix it. And if, uh, if you put it off, if you don't, uh, practice this principle of short accounts, uh, you're going to have a cluttered and debris filled marriage, a cluttered and debris filled family.
So I was brought up this way. I was, I'm the oldest of four kids. Uh, I was brought up with our, our family, just keeping short accounts, deal with sin. Now don't let, don't let it pile up. Um, and then when I got married, well, sorry to interrupt you. What did that look like practically in that, in your home?
What did keeping short accounts look like? Practically? What, what it means is, let's say someone, uh, at the dinner table, there's conversation going on and someone gets annoyed mm-hmm. And, um, snaps at somebody. Okay. It looks like 30 seconds later that person saying, I got annoyed. I'm very sorry. I shouldn't talk that way.
Mm. Please forgive me. Mm. That's what it looks like. Yeah. You pick it up 30 seconds later. Yeah. Instead of it coming out eight years later in counseling. Right, right. Or right. So, um, uh, so one time, uh, when I was a little, little boy, my dad disciplined me in annoyance. Uh, I was being a, uh, slow poke and putting the toys away to before I would go into bed.
And my dad was going off to lead a bible study and was very short with me in, in how he disciplined me. And then he left, uh, and then sat in the car outside and then came back in. Mm-hmm. And I still remember that I was, must have been. Four or five. Wow. When this happened, um, sat in my bed, sought my forgiveness for being short in how he disciplined in how he disciplined me, and I knew that I deserved it.
Uh, you know, I knew that it was, uh, not uncalled for discipline, but what that telegraphs to everybody in the family is that God is the authority in this home. Yeah. Um, my parents are, my parents are authorities, but it's a small, a authority because they're under authority as well. Uh, so when, um, when I got married, uh, we had, uh, we had this operating assumption of keeping short accounts from the very first.
And, uh, we wanted to live that way with, uh, with one another, Nancy as my wife. So, which we did, we developed a handful of. Anvil of house rules to help remind us to keep short accounts. Um, and then our kids grew up with that. Uh, we've got three kids, um, uh, they are now, uh, our kids are now middle aged, our kids, and we have 18 grandkids.
So three, three kids, 18 grandkids. And it's been a delight. All, all our kids live here in Moscow. Um, so it's been a delight watching our, um, older grandkids grow up. Mm-hmm. Three of whom are. Uh, married, two of them have a baby and one's expecting, and then the youngest grandchild is not yet two years old.
So it's quite a, uh, it's a big spring. Quite a range. Yeah. And we, we have seats on the 50 yard line where we're able to watch how our kids bring up their kids and now watch how our grandkids are gonna be bringing up their kids. And the thing, and the thing that's delightful about it is that, uh, everybody's a Christian.
They're all, um, there are no defections. There are no apostates, there are no, uh, people in, in a blue funk or a rebellion. Uh, they all love the Lord and are walking with him. And the family, the extended family gets together weekly. We have a Sabbath dinner, um, preparing for the Lord's day, preparing for worship in the morning.
Uh, we have a Sabbath dinner where everybody congregates and it's something like 30 people. I'd have to do the math. Um, 30 people without guests. So it's frequently, uh, a weekly meal of 30 to 50 people, um, gathering together to fellowship and prepare for the Lord's Day. So it's very much a tangible, family centered thing, and it's, but it can only be family centered because it's God centered.
Hmm. I had about 10 questions pop up as you were describing all that. So many, like what did you do right? To have all your children and grandchildren who loved you. I mean, that's the goal for every one of us listening that you, you're living in the, the blessing man. Um, and all of us want that as dad. So that, that was a question that popped up.
Uh, I want to know, like, did you, when did you start those Sabbath dinners? Uh, were your kids, were your kids young when you started those? Um, we start, yeah, we started the Sabbath dinners maybe 23 or 24 years ago. Okay. So we've been doing it for, uh, uh, but our, our kids were mostly grown, so they were, uh, college age.
Okay. Uh, uh, when we, when we started. Um, and so we've been, we've been doing it for. A a a few decades and, and then some, uh, one of the things I would hasten to say, uh, you're, you're exactly right. It is a great blessing to see all your descendants walking with the Lord, uh, and not walking in perfection, not walking, of course.
Yeah. Uh, you know, but walking with the Lord, trusting, trusting God. Um, and the thing I need, I want to emphasize is that it's not by works, okay? It's not by works salvation. Everybody's salvation, your kids and your grandkids, salvation included is the grace of God. Yeah. It's the gift of God. Um, and so the, the way you approach this is by faith trusting.
So the, the, so the I, one of the books I wrote on child rearing is called Standing on the Promises. And standing on the Promises is. Um, the foundation is, does God give Christian parents assurances or promises concerning their children? Okay. And I think the answer to that is yes, but, but you, you say, but how come if that's the case, if God promises the salvation of children to Christian parents, then why do I know some sweet people at church whose kids are wayward and right, uh, apostate and in all kinds of trouble?
Why, what, what happened to the promise man? Right. Well, um, the best illustration I can come up with, or counter example I can come up with is the promises in scripture concerning answered prayer. Okay. Uh, there are two kinds of prayers in scripture. One is the kind of prayer that the Lord prayed in Gethsemane.
This is my request. Um, but nevertheless not my will, but your will be done where it's a prayer of submission to the decrees of God. But then there are, there's some other passages that say, and whatever you ask, ask in my name believing, and you've got it right. Right. Um, they, they, there's a handful of passages that seem to be blank check promises.
Right. Right. Here, here you go, just cash this in. And, and you say, okay, I know Christians who pray intensely for certain things to happen that don't happen. And that's apparently a Gethsemane type of situation. Right. But these other prayers, they, they're, they are to be prayed sometime. They're, I mean, the verses are there for some reason.
They apply some somewhere. Um, and I believe that God has given. Uh, promises to parents and those parents who apprehend those promises by faith, who look at the promise and say, I'm just gonna trust God for this. God gives them that gift of being able to pick up that promise and trust him, um, that it results in work, but it's not on the basis of work, the work at all.
So, um, did people will say, did you have a devotional time at the dinner table? Yeah, we did that. And did you provide a Christian education for your children? Yeah, we did that, but that's not why this happened. Um, that's sort of the res everything proceeds from trusting God. So we're, we want to just trust God for our kids and that's gonna result in kids trusting God also, and also result in us wanting to do things together.
Right. So it's a cart and horse thing. Don't ever confuse the cart for the horse. Yeah. I'm trying to, um, I'm trying to understand that fully. So would you say, 'cause obvi, we all know families who, who in our churches that, you know, love Jesus and their kids aren't walking with the Lord. Um, would you say that that was a lack of trust for them?
Yes. Yes. Um, and, and this is not so that you can come along and kick a grieving parent in the head with Yeah, totally. Let me tell you all the things you did wrong. Um, but I've been a pastor for. Four decades plus. And when I've seen kids veer off, when I've seen kids, um, uh, you know, lose their faith or, or rebel against God, it's not exactly a mystery.
Why? Hmm. Okay. I'll just put it that way. Um, and sometimes it's the, the issue is not, uh, the, uh, I would say three quarters of the time, it's not because the parents were tyrannical and abusive and, and yelled bible verses at their kids all the time. Almost always it was because the parents were too soft or too indulgent or not, um, they not authoritative enough in what they get in, in not giving the kind of structure, emotional structure, spiritual structure, uh, that their kids needed.
Now I see why they call you controversial. I just needed to sit down with you for a couple minutes to really get to the controversy thing. No, that's, uh, that's fascinating. That's interesting. I think a lot of people will have to chew on that, um, and wrestle with that, you know, as with what you're saying.
But here's, this is the thing, as again, this is something I learned from my dad. God takes you from where you are, not from where you should have been. Let me think about it for a second. Okay. God takes you from where you are, not where you should have been, not from where you should have been. Okay.
Elaborate. Yeah. So let's say, let's say you've got a dad watching this podcast. Mm-hmm. Um, and he is got a 12-year-old son who's starting to be a little bit surly. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, if that dad were in my congregation and he were coming to me for pastoral counsel, I might be able to, having watched him interact with his son, I might be able to say, well, I saw this.
A couple years ago, and I saw this and I saw how you were, I saw how you coach your son in basketball, you know that, that kind of thing. Yeah. Um, and he, he could slap his forehead, at which point, I'd say, but God takes you from where you are, not from where he should have been. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. You, when you, when you view the game film, it's not so that you can accuse yourself so that you can feel like dirt, um, because that's not gonna be a good parenting.
Right. Kids, kids don't need a dad who feels like dirt. Right. They need a dad who walks with God in humility, but not a dad who's just, uh, collapsed in on himself. Yeah. Um, and so it's important to say, okay, what does God want you to do? Taking it from here. Now I'm, I'm convinced that dads, and this is one of the things that we learned from scripture, dads have a mon, a place of monumental importance in the lives of their children.
And so I don't have any problem envisioning a dad who did all kinds of things wrong, coming to grips with that when he's 65 and his son is 45, and having a conversation with his son that goes home because God takes you from where you are, not from where you should have been. Right? Uh, does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. So, uh, your, your fatherhood does not evaporate, uh, simply because your son is grown, simply because your son is in college. Your fatherhood do, does not, does not evaporate. I think, uh, one of the things we hear a lot as parents with young ones is, you know, one of the keys to success with your parents is in regards to discipline specifically, is be consistent.
And one of the challenges I found as a data four, and I've watched my peers with their kids is you try to be consistent, but we don't even really know what to do. So we're, how do, what do, I'll be consistent for a month, you know, in regards to discipline. And I'm like, that doesn't, I feel like I'm making no progress, so I better try a new technique.
And then I try that for a month. And that's like, well, maybe that worked for that child that didn't work at all for this child. Uh, can you, can you, I I, I listened to a whole sermon that you gave her. It was, maybe it was a parenting conference you did at your church on discipline. I found it. In incredibly helpful.
One of the things you talked about in that conference was joy, which surprised me, um mm-hmm. And removing the child from the joy of the family. I don't know if you remember talking about about that, but it was, that was very, very interesting and helpful for me. I've talked about it actually on this podcast, but can you give us some thoughts on discipline as Christian parents?
Uh, yeah. Let me start with that, uh, thing. God placed our first parents in the Garden of Eden, which was a, a garden of Yes. In a world full of, yes. Hmm. Okay. There was one. No. Hmm. Oh, okay. Now a lot of Christian parents put their kids in a garden of nos and there's one Yes. At dinner time we'll give you some gruel.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, and so, uh, I want to be a biblical parent. I want to, and that means being a strict parent. Um, yeah. Every parent, every parent is strict and every parent is parent is lenient. Lenient. It's what you're lenient about and it's what you're strict about. Um, so one of the, um, the, the cultivation of joy, first, let me, um, point back to the short accounts point, because sin is the great joy disruptor.
Yeah, totally. Okay. So if you make a mess and you get the vacuum cleaner right away and you clean up the mess, you're restoring joy, you're making joy possible again. Yeah, that's good. Uh, right. That, that's the the first thing. The second thing is when a kid develop, well, let's say one of your kids develops a stink eye as a stink attitude, and they're, um, just walking the line as, as they, so they figure and they figure out right where the line is, and they walk along at like a drunk by the highway with a, yeah.
I had a 3-year-old, by the way, doing that about two minutes before we jumped on this podcast. Yeah. So, so, um, that happened. That happens. I remember one time saying to, uh, saying to Nancy, we're gonna watch this child, and if one toe goes over the line, the roof's gonna fall in. Be because they were, they were cruising for it.
They were asking for it. Yeah. And one misstep. Okay. Then you, uh, and there was a bad attitude and, and then one toe across the line. And then we disciplined sort of. Sharply, decisively. And then that child was a bundle of joy afterwards because sin is an attitudinal corrosive. Hmm. Right. If you deal and if you deal with the sin, it restores them to the, to fellowship in the family.
Hmm. And this goes back to how I remember, um, uh, when I was a boy, I don't remember the particular incident, but I remember the scenario. Um, my dad used to take us to the basement for discipline, and, uh, and he would take us there, there'd be an opportunity for the defense, which was usually pretty thin. Um, my, my defense attorney was lousy and he would discipline, discipline us, uh, spank us.
Mm-hmm. And then he would pray with us. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, so, and then say something like, okay, as far as we're concerned, this matter is completely resolved, as far as we're concerned. It, it never happened. Hmm. Okay. You are completely and entirely forgiven. And as soon as you're prepared to act like it's completely and entirely forgiven, you're welcome to rejoin us at the dinner table.
Okay. And I remember sitting in the, uh, down in the basement after a discipline event listening to the happy clink of silverware upstairs. Mm-hmm. Wondering, why am I down here in the ba? Why am I down here in the basement when I could just accept my forgiveness and be rejoined to the family? Hmm. Well, if the, if the family is a place of conversation and joy and fellowship and laughter, if that's the way, if that's the ordinary environment, and then sin disrupts it.
And then, uh, discipline calls attention to the disruption. Hmm. The child is outside the joy of that fellowship and knows it. Yeah. But really loves the fellowship of the family and wants back in. Yeah. Okay. So a, a danger sign for, for parents who discipline, um, let's say, um, a kid pops off and does something bad and, uh, so they get spanked and then the child run after the spanking, the child runs down the hall yelling, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.
Okay. And then a couple of hours later, things blow over. Kind of, that's not healthy. Uh, that's, that's not healthy because the, what you want is to have the child when you're, when you discipline the child for their bad behavior or bad attitude, and I'll get to that. Next you discipline for the, the bad behavior.
You should want their reflex action to be, to turn back to you for comfort. You're the one who disciplined them, but they want you to be the one who comforts them. They want, that tells you that they want back in. Okay. Um, another, another important principle is that we discipline for attitudes. Um, not simply for, um, throwing a baseball and breaking the vase.
Hmm. Right. We would discipline for attitudes. So, uh, if someone was surly or I. Just grumpy and not being civil, we would address, address that. Hmm. And what that means is that you're dealing, uh, instead of trying to weed the garden with three foot tall Canadian thistle, uh, what you're doing is going out to the garden at five in the morning and pulling up weeds that are the size of your thumbnail.
Okay. You're, when you discipline for attitudes, it is, it is manifest, it's obvious it's there. Um, it might be roll of the eyes, it might be, you know what, whatever it is. Yeah. But if you're on it, that's simply, um, keeping short accounts, making dis, um, monitoring the fact that we're gonna keep short accounts on an extremely fine filter.
Um, and I don't know if you picked up on this, but one time, um, someone, one of our adversaries, uh, posted a, uh. A clip of my wife Nancy, uh, describing, disciplining for attitudes. Uh, one time I had, and the clip, okay, well, it went viral. Nancy, uh, was describing, um, she dropped off, uh, one of our daughters at a, at a neighbor's house.
At a friend's house. And when she came to pick her up, um, our daughter sort of, eh, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. It was, and so, uh, she was disciplined for that when she got home. And then the next time, uh, before they did this drop off play date, Nancy said, now this time when I come and pick you up, I want you to say, hi, mom.
When I arrive, I want a hi mom. Um, and happy to go. Well, anyway, there was just a clip of her describing that scenario, and it went. Stratospheric, like over a million views Wow. Of people yelling and hollering about how mean and abusive you are controlling your ch, controlling your children's attitudes. Hmm.
But we're parents, of course we're supposed to, to, to address our, our children's attitudes. Don't talk to, don't talk to me that way young man. Yeah. What are you doing? You're, you're dealing with attitudes, right? And, and you're, and you're dealing with the weed before the weed has taken deep root. Hmm. What is in that example that you gave of the video that went viral?
It's so funny how things, uh, get picked up and go viral like that. But, um, what is the, what is the expectation for the child? And that was so like, if, if I have a grumpy child at home and they're clearly giving attitude about something, and they're not really even saying much, but just their overall attitude is poor and affecting the family environment, what is the expectation?
For you don't get to do that. Okay. Right. Yeah. No. In, in our home, we are going to be cheerful. We're going to love each other, we're gonna be cheerful. And, um, and now if the person is, is saying, oh, mom, I, I'm just kind of, I've just got the blues. I don't know why. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, you don't spank 'em for that.
Yeah. Um, one of our favorite family stories is, uh, when our oldest daughter was, uh, a young girl one day, she was, you know, had rainy day blues kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, Nancy said, well, until you feel, why don't you go into your bedroom and just, uh, read your Bible for a little bit? You know, like a, it's a corrective positive discipline, but you don't get to be a rain cloud.
Raining on everybody else. You, you just don't get to do that. Hmm. So Nancy suggested that, that she just go into the bedroom and, and, and, uh, seek an attitude adjustment. Just reading her bible for a little bit. And so she went back there, and then a short time later, this voice comes out of the bedroom saying, mom, where, where's that place where the fat king got stabbed?
And the, and the,
I need a little inspiration. Inspiration will pick me up. Yeah. Pick, pick. That's hilarious. Anyway, um, one of the, uh, a lot, uh, having a sense of humor, deep affection for one another, enjoying one another's company, uh, and not. Letting people develop a hostage taking approach to their attitudes. I think what you're saying is when, when I heard you originally talk about that, it really was, I had never heard that perspective on, on discipline and, and parenting.
Um, and I think one of the reasons, um, that's it might be challenging is because for many of us parents, we want quick fixes. And what you're describing is not a quick fix. It requires whole transformation of your family. It requires, like you said, the house to be picked up. Right. And it would be easier just to, you know, shuffle things around.
But you're talking about an environmental change in your household, right. And more than that, uh, there's a fundamental, I'm sorry for interrupting, but there's a fundamental thing because if I'm, if I'm gonna require my kids to have disciplined demos and attitudes, then it's gotta start with me. Yeah. All right.
So if, if the kids don't get to snap at one another. Well, mom and dad don't get to snap at anybody. Yeah. Right. And so, uh, you, you're right that the, uh, instituting something like this is global. Right. And, and it affects how mom and dad talk to each o each other. Mm-hmm. How mom or dad talk to the kids because you can't just enforce, don't pop off at me young man, but you get to pop off at him.
Right? Right. Um, so the other illustration I use is, let's say you're, um, you've got some, your 7-year-old boy is balancing peas on his knife at the dinner table. It's impressive. Yeah. And impressive. And the, the task challenged him. He thought of it and he, he's working way, way at it. And let's say dad is a, is concerned for manners at the dinner table and, and sees that and loses his temper and bites his son's head off.
Don't. Behave that way at the table. Mm-hmm. Well, why? Well, because it's bad manners to balance peas on your knife. I see. And it's not bad manners to bite somebody's head off at the dinner table. Mm-hmm. That's not, um, biting someone's head off is a thousand times worse than peas on the knife, because the Bible talks about that.
It doesn't say anything about peas and knives. Well, I think, although, yeah, I, I think another part of that too, I mean another layer of that which I found actually convicting just personally was, um, changing the environment, but also having to ask myself as a man, why am I not joyful? Which goes back to some of those short accounts of sin and the illness.
Like what have I let in my life am I, uh, fearful about our culture and world and political environment? Mm-hmm. Goes back to the very beginning of our conversation. Am I stressed about money and job and finances or have I not dealt with certain things in my marriage that need to be dealt with? And now my kids are getting the brunt of that.
Stress, uh, right. Uh, is there, is there own sin in my life, unconfessed sin in my life that is festering and building and causing angst in my soul that my kids are getting the brunt of? I mean, a lot of that is, I would rather you say, Jared, if you just do, uh, you know, count to three and then say these five words to your kids, you'll get them to have appropriate behavior.
What you're saying is not that, it's not a mathematical equation, it's a spiritual environmental change. EE, exactly. And, and here's the, you know, this might come across a, like a form of my zen presbyterianism, but um, there parents who are just nice people mm-hmm. And they walk with God and they're humble and straightforward and they might do any number of things wrong in their parenting, but it's covered.
The check's clear, uh, because there's an, the parents are making an enormous number of deposits that they don't even know about by just being fun people to be with. Right. Wow. And then there, and then there are parents who do everything by the book, write right by the book. Right. Um, but they're no fun.
They're two tons of no fun. And, and then the checks don't clear. Well, it's, it's how much money you've got in the bank account. Right. Um, I can't, I can't believe that that dad, he, he screwed up this way and that way, but his kids love him to pieces. Right. Well, that's because he had a couple million dollars in the bank and Yeah, he wrote a couple of $10,000 checks and that was bad.
That was. You know, bad, but the check's cleared. And then there are other parents who are running sort of, they've got a cashflow problem where they're just 10 cents above. Mm-hmm. 10 cents above. And, um, uh, here's another way of, uh, illustrating it is that I, I've seen families that, you know, read the books and we're gonna have family worship and we're gonna have Bible centered and we're gonna do this.
You know, it is a checklist kind of thing. It's like, it's like parents who saved and scrimped and saved for eight months to. Take their kids on an all expense vacation to Disneyland. And then they discovered 10 years later that none of the kids even remember having gone. That was, we spent the better part of a year saving up money to do that.
And then another family, uh, they, the kids get to reminiscing about good times. And the kids say, you remember that time when we stopped in potlatch on the way back from the river and dad bought popsicles and we spent time chunking rocks at the tree. Yeah. And the fudgesicles cost $3 and 50 cents. Right?
Totally. And it's a memory, it's a memory for life. Yeah. Well, what, uh, we're not in absolute, we we're not in any kind of control over what our kids are remembering. And so what we want to do is create an environment from which those selections are made, and that environment needs to be an environment of.
Parents and children in fellowship. Right. I think what I'm struggling with, uh, is the, what we talked about at the beginning and the kids that, that kind of wander when they're older. And one of the things you said, one of the reasons you talked about trust, but one of the reasons is maybe they were too lax.
They didn't have proper discipline and boundaries. And so when my head, I, I go to, uh, inappropriately an extreme version of that, of what you're talking about, it's like, well, I'll just be the really fun dad and you lose sight of all the boundaries. And now I'm, we're a garden of Yes. And, you know, eat, eat all the popsicles and go play as late as you want and do whatever you want.
You know, I'm, I'm the fun dad, so I'm trying to build up the relational bank here. You know, that's where my brain goes. So here's, um, and this is, here's another round of zen presbyterianism. So let's say two dads and they've got a teenage son and both dads, uh, uh, require their son to, uh, split and, and stack a quar of wood.
Mm-hmm. Winter's coming. We need the, we need the wood split and stacked. And one dad, uh, is basically utilizing free labor from his son. Yeah. And the attitude is, I don't have to do it. He can do it. He's younger than I am, and I'm gonna take adv. I'm gonna take advantage of this son. You can do this. Uh, the other dad is, has his son split and stack the wood, but the son knows that his father is giving him a work ethic.
Mm-hmm. So, so, so in, you've got this two fathers, two sons, same amount of wood, but everything is dispositional. So the, the, the son in one scenario knows that his father, uh, is giving him something and the other son feels put upon because of how the dad assigned it, how the dad sprung it on him at the last minute.
Uh, you know, uh, uh, I don't have to do this. There are all kinds of tells Yeah. That, that surround this. And, and so there are, there's a golden rule thing here too. So let me give you, uh, another way of illustrating this principle is, you know what it's like in the summertime when the, well, I don't know where you live, but here in Idaho, uh, it's light out till 9, 9 30 mm-hmm.
In, in the middle of the summer. Mm-hmm. And when you've got little kids school's out, they're in the backyard playing and they're playing hard. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know what I mean by playing hard? Mm-hmm. They're just going now. A, a foolish father is gonna walk out on the back porch and say, time for bed.
Because what, what's happening is the kids are all going 60 miles an hour and you just, uh, ran them right into a brick wall. Mm-hmm. Right? How are they supposed to turn around on that? Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, so you're, you're, you're not remembering their frame. You're not remembering what it's like to have been a kid playing hard in the summertime in the backyard, and you say, but the kids have to go to bed.
You know, we're, we have to, we're going on vacation in the morning. They have to get up early. Okay, great. Great. Uh, what you should do though is walk out on the back porch and say, 15 minutes. Okay. 15 minutes. Because what you're doing is remembering. Their frame. You're remembering, you're, you're obeying the golden rule.
How would you like to be a kid in that position who was having the time of his life and all of a sudden he's expected in 30 seconds to be ready to, to snooze. Yeah. Right, right. Life's not like that. So, uh, this is what, this is another example of parents being thoughtful, uh, parents and, uh, living life in an in and anticipatory way.
Um, uh, and, and that kind of thing gets communicated and the, and the kids know that you're for them, right? This is, uh, I mean, who thought of that? Right? One of the things when our kids were little. Um, when Nancy used to give them baths, um, she would put them in the bathtub and then throw the towel in the dryer.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, when they got out, they had a hot, hot towel. Like, and they, you know, you got this little 3-year-old kid, you think I must be a member of the country club. They're treating me like royalty. Yeah. Yeah. This is, um, I, I think a lot of what you're talking about too is it, it takes a slowing down.
Even when we talked about the short accounts, it takes a kind of swallowing of pride. Um, you know, like I having a short account with my wife, when you were talking about that, one of the first stories that came to mind is an, uh, she said something to me as a, as a joke, uh, in the bathroom. We're both getting ready, brushing our teeth, getting ready.
She says something to me as a joke, but it had a hint of truth that pricked a nerve. Right. And instead of having a short account with her. I let that fe she tried to immediately have a short account. What I clearly offended you. What did I say that was hurtful? You know what, how can I, what story are you writing in your head?
How can we make this right? Me, way too much pride. Uh, you know, I let that build up and fester. It turned into an all day argument because I did not have a short account. Um, but a lot of that is one, swallowing your pride and just two, a lot of patient, like, just, I'm gonna be patient here. I'm going to not make myself the main character of this story in the family I want to.
And, uh, and even the way that you, you described discipline with your dad coming down and him, you know, spanking you. And then, uh, as far as I as under, uh, from my perspective, it's forgiven and we're ready to move on. All of that is slow and intentional, which for most of us parents, it just feels like I'm disciplining because I'm annoyed and I need something to cha I need your behavior to change quickly.
Oh, you know what I mean? Oh, thank you. Uh, there's another, in principle just reminded me of this, and that's Galatians six one. If anyone has overtaken in a trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. Mm. So the problem with parents is that when we're motivated to discipline, we're not qualified.
Mm-hmm. And when we're qualified, we're not motivated. Okay. Okay. Um, consider yourself So, uh, in a spirit of gentleness, if a brother's overtaken in a trespass, so I've got my brother here who just mouthed off to his mom. Right. And I've gotta do something if I, if I just want to keep reading my book or if I wanted to keep doing what I was doing, I'm not motivated to discipline because I'm not annoyed.
Hmm, because I'm not annoyed getting up to deal with it would be an act of obedience on my part instead of an act of irritation. When I'm motivated to go correct him because I'm irritated or annoyed at him, I'm motivated by sin, which means I'm not qualified to do what I'm about to undertake to do. Oh, right, right.
So, uh, and this is, so this is another fundamental principle. Don't discipline your kids when you're disqualified. Wow. Alright. Now you might say, well this really is a screamer. It needs, you know, I need to discipline. So I would say, have their kid, have the kid go to their room. Then you go to the end of the bathroom or somewhere and get right with God.
Right. So there's not a trace of, uh, person personal angst in it. Yeah. Um, uh, so Conseque, and this is the, this is very much the way it was, uh, in the discipline I experienced growing up. And the way we did it with our children is we wanted it to be judicial, um, judicial and judicious. So we disciplined calmly, not in anger.
We wanted to be the magistrate with the black robe behind the bench. This is just, this is the law of, um, this is the law of order and decorum in the universe. And God has, uh, has tasked me with the, um, with the responsibility of correcting you when you do things like this. But I would, I would speak to my kids in the same tone of voice that I'm using right now.
Hmm. Right. This is, this is what you did. This is where the Bible says you're not supposed to do this sort of thing. Um, and because of that, I'm gonna give you swats and I want you to cooperate with me. I don't want you to fight me. And then usually it was something like three swats. Um, unless it was some high, high profile problem, um, three, three swats, and then I hold you until you're done crying, and then I pray with you.
Hmm. And then say it's all forgiven. It's completely and totally forgiven. You're welcome to rejoin the family at any, any time as soon as you're prepared to walk in that forgiveness. Hmm. Um, and that's, that's how it should come down. But I, I have to be under God's authority while I'm doing it. Yeah. If I'm angry or annoyed or irritated or frazzled.
Um. Then I shouldn't be doing it. Yeah. I should go get right with God before I do that. Another, uh, thing if I'll just, if you don't mind, please. I'm soaking it all in. Yeah. Uh, tagging here, one of the reasons we used a, a wooden spatula spanking spoon, um, to discipline. Um, and part of the reason for doing that is when you spank on bare buns with your hand, one of the things that can happen is it can sting you.
Right. Um, and, and some parents, when they spank their kids and they hurt themselves, that can tip them over the line into, uh, uh, like a retaliatory. Mm-hmm. Thing. You never want to be adversarial with your kids. You never want to be retaliatory with your kids. You want it to be simply this son, I'm gonna give you three swats because it's the law of heaven that this sort of thing gets three swats.
Hmm. Right. And I, and I'm going to, and I'm gonna do it, and then we're gonna be fine and in fellowship afterwards. Right, right. Hmm. Um, when you're thinking through your discipline and that, I'm just constantly trying to contrast that, having an environment with joy while also giving these strict boundaries so that they know that there are, there's a, i, I picture it as a big sandbox to play in.
There's lots of freedom to play within the sandbox, but you know the boundaries and when you cross them, you've stepped outside of the design of God and, and for our family. Right. Um, what are your thoughts on, I. I, I, I think a big part of my motivation here. I have a 13-year-old son, so he just turned 13. I have one son, 13 and three younger daughters.
A big motivation for me right now in the current stage of parenting is to train him up in, to become confident as a man, as I get ready to send him out into the world. Um, some would call that rite of passage process. What are your. Uh, part of my motivation there, um, or maybe my angst is like, I only have what feels like a few more years left before he leaves this house.
And I really want to just, I've got very little time and I'm trying my best to make sure that he really does feel confident and secure, and he's got the tools needed to go out there and be a faithful man of God. Um, I guess it's a two part question. One, trying to balance that. I also just want to, I want him to be like, man, dad loves me and he delighted me and I wanna listen to it.
I don't wanna be the dad that just sends him out to cut all the wood because he's 13 and able to do it, but because, um, he knows I'm trying to train him, um, and actually has joy. And then also, um, you know, do you have any thoughts on rite of passage in that training of young manhood? Yeah, I, I love and appreciate the fact that cultures do have rites of passage and unfortunately, ours really doesn't.
Yeah, right. Um, there are, there were things that approximated it. Um, and, but unfortunately the, the erosion, you know, like, uh, the closest thing I could think of is someone becoming an Eagle Scout mm-hmm. Or something like that. Yeah. Um, where it was activities and things learned that were geared to boyhood, that were aimed at manhood.
Yeah. Right. Um, so if you, if you accomplish something like this as a boy, it mattered when you were a man. Right. Does, does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Um, it's the kind of thing, there are certain things that you can do as a boy that you would still put on your resume as a man. Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Okay.
Okay. Um, so, uh, unfortunately Christian fathers are gonna have to ad hocket, um, where it, um, you say, and you have to take into account your son's frame, your son's abil abilities, you know, all the, all the different. Things. Yeah. So my brother, my brother-in-law, for example, um, with his son, he bought, uh, he bought a Mustang and they took the, um, they took the Mustang.
He and his son took the Mustang apart. Every part that could be separated from any other part Wow. Was taken apart. They com they completely took it down, had, um, had all the pieces redone, um, uh, powder, um, treated mm-hmm. The various parts and then reassembled the whole thing. This is their project together.
Wow. It was a shoulder to shoulder project. Right. Um, that, uh, and that has the advantage of fathers not falling into the trap of trying to treat their son like they were a couple of girls. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. Uh, take your son out for dinner and let's have a heart to heart talk. I'm not against heart to heart talks, but for guys, heart to heart talks need to be shoulder to shoulder.
Yeah. And they have to come up, by the way, rather than Let's, let's communicate. You and I Right. Let, uh, let's talk about our relationship. Well, that's kind of a girl thing to say, right? I agree with you. I'm just reemphasizing all the reasons why you might be controversial in, in this day and age, but I agree.
I agree with you. Uh, one, just as a man and knowing all the deep conversations I've had with my guy friends from the time I was, you know, seven years old to today, all, all of them, they've never been over a cup of coffee at Starbucks. You know, that always felt forced and awkward. Um, they've always been It happens on when you're hunting.
Yeah. It happens when you're, yeah. Yeah. It happens. Men need to communicate with one another. Totally. Yeah. And fathers need to communicate with their sons, but they need to communicate like men. Yeah. Right. Uh, the, the way men do. Um, and so, uh, and fathers should create opportunities, uh, uh, where they can give input to their sons.
Right. Input that matters. So one of the things that I did, for example, when, uh, I've got two, uh, two girls and one boy, um, one of the things I did is I coached. Mm-hmm. So, um, and I'm not, I'm not, um, uh, I, I've played sports and I've done that sort of thing, but I'm not the coachee type. Mm-hmm. If you know what I mean.
Mm-hmm. Um, but nevertheless, I coached lacrosse and I coached different, you know, I, I did, uh, different things that way in order to have opportunities where I would speak into the life and behavior and. Uh, performance of my son mm-hmm. And other people's sons as well. But it was that I wanted to cultivate that kind of working, working relationship and put myself into positions where that, uh, was necessary.
Yeah. That, that became necessary. And my son is, uh, doing that now. He, he's, um, he's coached, uh, logo school's, basketball team last couple years. Uh, and his, his son, my grandson is on the team. He, that he's coaching, he's done the same sort of thing. So those are, uh, uh, catch it as it goes by rites of passage.
Yeah. Because there, we don't have a Protestant, Christian, evangelical form of the bar mitzvah or the form of the, uh, becoming an Eagle Scout. Yeah. And even the, uh, my friend, uh. John Tyson talks a lot about this. He's written a book on Rite of passage, but he talks about, even in the Mormon culture, there is more of a setup for the young men to go through some kind of formalized process.
Um, but I agree with you, there isn't, we haven't really set something up in the evangelical world to do this. Well, um, if you have time, I, I, I know I'm, I'm taking a lot of your time here. Um, one, I just want to, any resources that you, you currently have, you know, it sounds like you've written books on this that you could point us to, but before you get to those kind of practical next steps for our listeners, um, I know education is a huge part of what you guys are doing.
Um, can you just speak to education and, and you, I'll let you just kind of take that in any direction. We've got a lot of moms and dads who are listening to this right now who are trying to educate their kids, homeschool, public school, private school, all the things. Mm-hmm. What are you, what would you want to say to a bunch of parents, a room full of parents as you have their attention right now on education?
Okay. This is gonna be another one of those. The controversial ones, or no controversial ones. Okay. Um, I would tell parents whose kids are in the government school. I would ex exhort them as I, I know they're difficult situations. I know there are single mom situations. I know that there are court decisions that require public education, but wherever possible, get your kids out of the government schools.
Just, um, do what it takes. If, if it's possible to get them out, get them out. And that's because you want, uh, the, the task of parenting is challenging enough. F just in a fallen world without you having to undo Yeah. What was done to them for eight hours. You've got two hours in the evening to undo what they did for, for eight hours and you don't even know what they did.
So you're not, you're not sure what you can do to undo it. So you, what you want to do is either homeschooling or homeschool co-ops or in a, a traditional, uh, private Christian school, you want your kids in an environment dominated by the word of God where the people, the instructors, and the people who are helping you in the task of educating your children are roughly rowing in the same direction that you are.
Yeah, that's well said. Okay. Okay. So, um, um, that, that's what I would urge parents to do educationally. Yeah. Um, now. On the, on the resources I've, so I've written a number of books on, on all of this. Um, a couple of books, well, two or three on education. Um, uh, recovering the Lost Tools of Learning the Case for Classical Christian Education and the PDay of God and, um, uh, excused absence.
Those are books I've written on education. And then on child rearing, I've written, um, standing on the Promises. I've written future men specifically for, uh, training boys. Um, uh, I've written another small book, why Children Matter. Um, uh, so there, and if you go to Canon, uh, Canon Press and Canon Plus is a streaming service.
There are a number of these books that are categorized, um, under family resources. Um, and a number of 'em are available in audio. Um. So that's, yeah. We'll put links to all those. Yeah. You've written tons of, you've, you've got a lot of resources out there. Thank you for doing this. Thanks for, uh, for taking the time.
Uh, oh, I was gonna say on the, I just spoke at a, uh, we homeschool and so I was asked to speak at a homeschooling, uh, tech, one of Texas, if not Texas largest homeschooling, um, convention recently. And they, um, they shared with me that, um, since COVID homeschooling has doubled in the United States and it has tripled in Texas, which I thought was really fascinating.
Not surprising, but, um, yeah. Really good sign. Yeah. Fascinating. So, thank you, pastor. I really appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man, so this, this was, uh, this meant a lot to me. Thank you so much. All right. You're most welcome. Thank you.