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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.198)
Hi, you're okay you said. Not great, but okay. Yeah, I said to someone yesterday and I truly believe like if you're just alive, then you're doing great in this world.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02.124)
Hello. Yeah, I'm OK.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20.309)
Yeah. Yeah, the bar is low these days, I think.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:21.186)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's tough. Which leads me to what I thought maybe we could talk about, although we'll see where your head's at today, which really is kind of about surviving because we're at war, apparently, and un
Taina Brown she/hers (00:40.033)
Did we ever stop? That's my question.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:43.47)
That's a great question. I mean, it is March. It is the beginning of March, first week of March, and we've already invaded Venezuela, invaded Iran. And then last night, I guess we were going into Ecuador or somewhere else. it's just...
Taina Brown she/hers (00:59.221)
my god.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02.414)
We can't do anything timely, even with only like a four day lapse between when we record these and when they air because so much changes. the consistent, the thing that doesn't change in my mind is sort of the overwhelm, which I know is by design. And we can know, we can both know that they're doing it on purpose to try and overwhelm us and also be feeling overwhelmed. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:10.699)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:27.872)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:29.098)
And I just thought maybe we could talk a little bit about that of like, how do you deal with the, the relentlessness of the news cycle of the upset of the bad things happening of the like, you know, just when it doesn't feel like it, you feel like you're getting battered by the waves nonstop, right? And there's not a time to come up for air almost.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:50.475)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:54.066)
And I don't know if you're feeling that, but I know a lot of people I talk to are feeling that. And I'm just, I thought maybe that'd be something we could talk.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:01.674)
Yeah, we can for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:03.342)
Were you coming into the room today with something else of interest?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:06.097)
No, no, I had an appointment, a doctor's appointment on Monday that I'm still recovering from. So that's where I'm at. But so.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:16.216)
Well, that kind of it's like, how do you deal with like I was up last night. So we're hiring my school. My son's school is hiring a new principal. The principal of many years is leaving, which is a real blow to the community. He's amazing. His deep commitment to equity, to not just embracing, like honoring, loving, promoting, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:32.457)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:44.054)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:46.306)
Being thrilled about the diversity inside of our school is just amazing. The community loves our, we're very blind. And he's leaving, he's retiring, which is, he's retiring, so it's not like he's going elsewhere. Although I know part of that is because of how hard it to be an educator right now and how a school district can claim equity as a value and yet not practice it in practical terms, which is what's happening inside of our school.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:53.096)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:03.84)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:11.497)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:15.63)
which is in a, in the, is one of, it's, we are one of the most diverse schools in the entire state and certainly in the region. And sadly that is reflected then in the resourcing that our school receives compared to other schools inside the district that are far less diverse and have more wealth in their area. So a lot of that's contributing to the retirement, but I spent four hours last night sitting on a board and,
that was a panel of educators throughout the district, within the school, and then also a smattering of parents who volunteered to interview the new candidates. So I was there interviewing the three candidates to replace him, which will be announced next week or the week this comes out. So it's very exciting. We're all excited that we're gonna have a new principal. And I feel relatively okay about the choices. mean, anyway, but so like,
Taina Brown she/hers (04:00.639)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:13.964)
Point being, you had a doctor's appointment that was probably triggering, that was challenging, that you're still having to deal with. And I was spending four hours of my life last night listening to these candidates and writing thoughtful notes and all of the things and not getting enough rest. And I guess the point is we all have lives that you want, right? The stuff that already makes life challenging, not getting enough sleep.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:26.644)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:36.979)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:43.874)
having to show up for your community or wanting to show up for your community, needing to show up for your kids, showing up for yourself, having health issues, like all the things that we have to deal with that already make life challenging. And then there's this layer on top of that that's always been there. And to some degree, I think feels a bit heavier, least certainly for people with privilege who maybe haven't experienced some of these things. But I think for all of us, that just the blatants
Taina Brown she/hers (04:47.316)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:09.301)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:14.026)
way the blatant shift towards hate and embracing this colonial endeavor and all of that just makes it feel like how are we supposed to deal with the day-to-day stuff where life like adulting fucking sucks to begin with, right? Yeah, and life is hard. Then you add all this other shit and it does start to feel like the threat of nuclear war hanging over your head.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:18.633)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:31.677)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It can, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:43.392)
You're like, wait a minute, I'm expected to go do the things I have to do because I got to pay the bills, the bills don't stop. And I got to be thinking about like, does it even matter because are we all going to be obliterated tomorrow? You know what I mean? Like, how are we all? Do you have those moments where you just stop in your day and it's almost like you have to laugh because if you don't, you'll go crazy where you're like, what are we doing? We're all just like, sending the email. Meanwhile, you're reading stories about like,
Taina Brown she/hers (05:53.384)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:09.458)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:12.527)
no, this could be like the war that ends all wars and just ends all humanity.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:15.54)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I feel that, I do. I think...
Taina Brown she/hers (06:26.16)
Yeah, I mean a part of me sometimes is like, this is just ridiculous and you just have to laugh at it because out of some...
sense of just feeling like, this real life? Like, is this real life? Like, this is actually happening right now. Like, this is, he said that, they did that. Like, that happened. Like, nobody in that room was like, maybe we shouldn't, right? So there's definitely that. And I think there's
Becky Mollenkamp (06:58.466)
Am I the only one seeing this? Am I the only one like freaking out? Am I the only one with a brain? Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:02.319)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's definitely that. think also just for like, that's the other side of the coin with that is like, you know, people who live in like marginalized communities, whether it's nuclear war or the police officer down the street.
your life is to end every day. I think for a lot of people who look like me, it's like, well, it's just another day. It doesn't feel as blatant. And I think this is where sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I'm getting the saying right, but I'm shocked but not surprised. Because it's like, well, yeah, of course. Of course.
This is the natural progression of events, right? Like, because it's been happening on such a micro scale for so long, it's just gotten to the macro level now where it's become more blatant, but like blatant for who? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:00.141)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:16.918)
Right, where people like myself can't, know, our privilege is no longer shielding us.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:22.894)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's part of the scary part right now is like...
Because when we think about intersectionality, right?
Obviously, we live in a hierarchical society. So there's always going to be someone at the very bottom and someone at the very top. And what intersectionality helps us to understand is that no matter what that framing looks like, privilege and power and oppression are dynamic, right? They're not like these static things that stay with you no matter what space you occupy. so,
So every one of us to a certain extent has some level of privilege, right? And some level of power, however small or finite that might be, right? And so when I was like teaching undergraduates, I was like, the fact that you're sitting in this classroom is a privilege, right? That you can go to college, even if you're here by student loans, even if you're a first generation college student, right? Even if you...
have to work full time and go to school full time or are single parent. Like the fact that you can sit in a classroom and take a class is an example of a type of privilege that you occupy that may not exist in other spaces that you occupy in other spaces that you go into, right? But it exists here. And so, so I think anytime that something shatters that sense of privilege, feels scary.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:03.727)
right? And the deeper that
shattering goes, the deeper that illusion goes, that gets shattered, or not that illusion, but that sense of privilege, like the more it gets shattered, like the more you feel it, obviously. And so,
Taina Brown she/hers (10:23.195)
Yeah, it's just... what a time! What a time!
Becky Mollenkamp (10:28.302)
Well, we can't always see our privilege until we do, right? Until you start to learn more about it. But because it makes me think of that, I think it's Elie Wiesel who said the whole, I think it was him, tell me if I'm wrong or if you know, maybe it wasn't, doesn't matter. Well, it does matter, but the person who said, the first they came for and it wasn't me and then they came forward, it wasn't me. And by the time they came for me, there was no one left, right? And
Taina Brown she/hers (10:32.517)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:49.495)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:54.322)
There was no one left, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:57.122)
That is the hard part about privilege is it shields you so long until it starts to crumble. But by then, you know, the people who most are have the most power, who hold that most power, the ones that are the most have the most proximity to them. takes so much for it to shatter for that privilege for to shatter enough that they notice it, that they don't make the change. And that's not to excuse people with privilege because you can learn before it comes. You can.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:08.72)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:16.177)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:23.483)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:25.504)
I also though, like not to both sides of it in any way, but like I do see as somebody who does hold a decent amount of privilege, I do see where it is also easy to not have that illusion shattered for yourself and to sit in that comfort of that privilege and not without honestly without awareness of it. Because sadly what happens inside privilege, privilege becomes like a vacuum and like a bubble, right? Where
Taina Brown she/hers (11:35.962)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:40.623)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:48.952)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:50.23)
We are with people who have similar privilege, our life experience and understanding is all wrapped up in that. like, we just don't know what we don't know. And if there's no one there to sort of pierce the veil and say, hey, look at what else exists, it can be easy, not acceptable, not okay, but it can be easy to just stay inside of that comfort and never really question it. that's, and it's, I get it because it's fucking.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:10.734)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:17.246)
anger inducing for the people who are sitting outside of that bubble saying like, can you not see me? Right? And it's like, to some degree, no, they don't, they can't. That's not okay. Right? It's not okay. That's the reality. And it's hard. And it's like, I guess it sometimes you're getting thinking gets you thinking, like, especially in these moments where you're like, it takes the threat of nuclear war for you to wake up. It's like, okay, what do do?
Taina Brown she/hers (12:23.022)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:26.468)
Yeah. But it is the reality. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:42.254)
What else works if it's, especially for the people who aren't waking up, this percentage of people who are still so happy to support blindly this man into anything, including their own annihilation. It's like, what would it take? There's obviously nothing. And I guess those are some of the things with like fascism and this conversation that can, where it starts to weigh on you. Cause there, it can start to feel like if a fucking nuclear war, the threat of nuclear war isn't going to be enough for you to say,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:44.773)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:12.222)
I'm willing to sacrifice some degree of my privilege, seed some of my privilege. If that's not enough, we're all fucking doomed, right? Like, I don't know, and it can get a bit heavy and depressing. And that's what I think I see from people is like, yeah, it's just this like, I mean, Jesus, what is it gonna take? Obviously, maybe there is nothing. And what does that mean for our future?
Taina Brown she/hers (13:14.874)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:19.748)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:24.398)
Yeah, heavy, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:32.036)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:36.408)
Yeah, yeah. I think, know, and not, you know, what I was saying earlier, not to like invalidate, you know, the response of people who may have had a higher level of privilege and are now starting to feel the pressure and the overwhelm and the scariness. Like that's real. Like when you first start to like come to terms with that and be like, wait, I'm not actually as safe as I thought I was. Like that's a, that's.
That's valid, that's a real feeling, that's a thing that we all have to contend with and it's scary and it takes a while to adjust to that new reality and to come to terms with it in a way that, I don't wanna say in a way that feels healthy, but in a way that isn't as overwhelming as it is in the beginning, right? There's definitely a transitionary period between.
having to confront that reality and then feeling like, okay, I can go about my day knowing that this is the reality without it being fully debilitating and just freaking me out and overwhelming me all the time. And then even then there's still moments where it's just like, I'm just having a crash out and it just needs to happen and on the other side of this, I'll be okay, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (15:01.07)
Yeah, it's a both and I guess of we can both acknowledge that when the privilege is pierced and you start to notice that there is grief, is, I think there's shame that can come up of why did it take this? There's a whole host of things that come up and those are valid things. And we can hold that it's valid to be experiencing those feelings and to say we don't need to center that and that you need to do that work.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:13.87)
Okay.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:28.047)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:30.614)
in your own space, on your own time with your own people, rather than centering it in the global experience and the bigger experience. And that's hard. I make that mistake all the time too, right? Like I blur those lines and I find myself where I'm like, I'm centering myself here in this. Like there's no shame where we mess up, but it's just trying to acknowledge it and notice it and say, okay, wait a minute. Am I now making this about me because I finally see it versus saying,
Taina Brown she/hers (15:38.03)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:58.274)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:59.69)
I can deal with that, the I'm finally seeing a piece over here. And then how do I also then show up in the bigger conversation in a way that honors the fact that many people have always seen it or they've been seeing it for a lot longer or it's affecting them in a far greater way or they've had effects of this a lot longer without it being about like, but now I'm hurting. So everybody come tend to me. And that's hard stuff to navigate. This is the messy piece, but like, yeah, because I don't want you to feel like I'm saying.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:11.18)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:25.343)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:28.2)
we need to center this experience of the poor privileged person who's, I know you don't, like, because yeah, that is valid and it doesn't need to, it's valid and it can happen in its own space without it becoming the central. And I think that's what upsets a lot of people on social media. If you're in more like liberal spaces on social media or progressive spaces on social media, it is, it is this like,
Taina Brown she/hers (16:31.358)
No. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:36.366)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:42.283)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:54.638)
the awakening of white people, you know, we saw it in 2020 on a giant scale. You know, I think there's this other version of it happening now where there's this new group of people that maybe had been supporters of this person who are coming to their awakenings because it is just so atrocious. And they get upset when people call them out on like this, their own, because what I think happens is they show up and they make it about them.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:10.584)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:21.463)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:21.622)
I feel bad. shouldn't have voted for this person. I have all this regret or, this is hurting me now. And I didn't know that was going to happen. And the response is rightly angry. And that is, and I think the problem is then that person feels like, so what are you saying? My feelings don't matter. And it's like, no, your feelings matter, but they need to exist over here. Not centered in the conversation. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:40.62)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And even, you know, and I don't know if I like...
Taina Brown she/hers (17:55.246)
Because social media, right, it's a parasocial space. It's not what people like to say. It's not real life. That phrase gets thrown around a lot. But technically it is. It's become so much a part of everyone's daily lives that it's evolved from this like...
Taina Brown she/hers (18:22.135)
side thing that people do to like real life. Like there are jobs around social media. At what point do we say, okay, no, this really is real life, right? Like this is a part of real life. And so I think people sharing those feelings online, like, I think that's okay. But I think it's also okay for the people who are angry to share those feelings, right? Like I think that that can be a process of generative conflict that can help to like.
stimulate change as opposed to it becoming this site of confrontation that creates more division. know, think, I think we just social media has just been so unregulated for so long that people don't know how to engage properly. And I think just generally as human beings, we're fucking emotionally stunted. So
In general, we don't know how to engage in generative conflict, right? And so you put those two things together at that intersection, of course, it's going to be like explosive or it's going to be like damning or it's going to just like sow more division as opposed to like bringing people together. And so I think it's, don't think it's necessarily have to like not share that stuff on social media, but I think it's a public space. It's like.
standing on your street corner and saying, hey, I used to be a racist, but I'm not anymore. How do you think people are going to respond to that?
Becky Mollenkamp (19:48.186)
Exactly, right? I just wish that more people, think people, and I get it, this is all the messiness of like, because I can get a lot of things about it. Like I understand too, when you start to awaken to something or feel away about something, like you just want a space to like, vomit those feelings, right? And unfortunately, many people don't go to therapy. Some of that is access, right? So like,
Taina Brown she/hers (20:02.38)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:09.228)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:15.265)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:17.87)
I would honor that too. Maybe some of these people can't afford a therapist where they could go talk to somebody about this. And depending on the amount of privilege they hold, their world, like I talked about, you if you've lived inside of this bubble, you've been living inside of a place where everyone agreed with you. Now, if you're stepping outside of that bubble, it's real lonely because suddenly everyone you knew was inside that bubble and they're still there. So you can't talk to them about this stuff. You can't if you don't have a therapist for whatever reason, whether you've been conditioned to believe therapy is bad, which for many people who've held enough privilege, that's true.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:21.12)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:31.436)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:34.911)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:48.014)
or maybe because you don't have access to that, whatever the reasons are, if you don't have a space where you can talk about these things, you don't have friends you can talk to, you don't have family you can talk to, you have a therapist to talk to, I get that inclination to be like, I just need to scream, I need to vomit, I need to get this stuff out. And social media sort of feels like that place. mean, yo, you could have a journal, a diary, that's also a place. But I do understand that inclination because I think for a lot of people, social media becomes a bit of a diary. And I have been guilty of this many times.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:00.98)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:07.837)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:13.28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:16.416)
i am not- i don't mean to other myself i have been this person too where i post things and i think what the fuck was i thinking when i look back i'm like that
Taina Brown she/hers (21:19.68)
yeah, for sure, me too.
Yeah. Like you were like, cringe. You're like, God, why did I do that? Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:27.32)
That belonged in a diary, Becky, not online. So like, I understand it. And I think what you said is so appropriate, which is if I let people read the pages of my diary, if I was to then go like snapshot my diary, put that up and then think no one has any, I've now put it on a public forum. And I think you're supposed to just look at it and not say a word. That's just, some of it is like media literacy, which we've talked about before too. Like we lack emotional intelligence. We lack media literacy.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:45.26)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:48.863)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:56.418)
We continue to strip these things out of the education system. Parents who lack it can't teach it, right? You can't teach what you don't know. So it's not happening in the homes often. it's like this self this repeating process where it just continues. Like, of course, we show up this way. But then, you know, what you will often hear from people is, well, then we need to be nicer to these people, whatever. And I'm with you. It's like, just because you.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:03.498)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:10.976)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:24.13)
didn't know better than to stand on the corner and tell me you are, you you used to be a racist or you are a racist and you just don't even know it saying racist ass shit that you don't recognize as racist. Just because you didn't know better doesn't mean that I'm not going to also protect myself, my kid, you know, my friends, say what I think back.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:30.441)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:41.929)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:48.558)
shouldn't fall on me it certainly shouldn't fall on the person for whom what you're saying causes that has caused or is causing the most harm. That's complicated but. But yeah and it is hard like what do you do when people don't I don't know I mean there's obviously one thing when someone has a mental health issue that's a different story right if you're if you're in in able and in able to know unable to know why that's not okay that's a difference then you just have never been taught versus.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:49.824)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:54.037)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:58.685)
It is complicated,
Becky Mollenkamp (23:17.696)
lack the ability to know. But for most people it's like you just were never taught. And what do we do when people aren't taught?
Taina Brown she/hers (23:21.525)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:24.886)
I don't know. I we need the teachers. And I do love the people. Like, I have such mad respect for the people who show up on social media to educate and who do that in a way that is so...
passionate, empathetic to people for people to people for whom I find it hard to be empathetic and passionate. Like I respect those people and that's not a requirement of them.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:37.195)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:43.563)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (23:48.487)
It's not, it's really not. And it's also one of the reasons why I, outside of just like the reading community and the fan-fit community, I don't really spend a lot of time on social media these days, just because one, it's triggering. It's very triggering. with even on, even when I am like on my social media apps, like the number, like my feed is
almost entirely made up of ads. Like, I... Instagram, Instagram, and even TikTok. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:22.102)
Which platform? Instagram?
Becky Mollenkamp (24:27.16)
TikToks, I'm already I've left TikTok. I'm happy to say not to be better than anyone else, but it like it's addictive.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:31.816)
Yeah.
It's very addictive and I'm not, I'm mostly on Instagram because that's where a lot of like my fanfic like community is. like, so I'm not on TikTok that often, but, but when I'm scrolling through the feed, I would say it's like 90 to 95 % ads. Like I'm barely seeing like actual content from people and it, that's just exhausting to like have to like do that. And so, so yeah, I forgot where I was going.
I got caught up in the ads. god the ads. yeah, it's triggering and like educating people. Yeah, like there's always a part of me that
Becky Mollenkamp (25:06.594)
Well, being off social media, it's triggering and it's difficult and educating people is what we were talking about.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:17.318)
wants to be like, well, there's the pretentious part of me that's always like, you're wrong. Let me show you how wrong you are. This is right. And I'm like, okay, yes, yes, yes. So like to temper that. So to temper that a bit, like, you know what? If I can't be as responsible as I want to be on social media, then I just need to live it how much time I have on social media. So just setting boundaries with myself there. But then also like,
Becky Mollenkamp (25:26.465)
the judgy bitch that you mentioned. i'm not calling you that, you've called yourself that.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:46.91)
just the amount of, it's just frustrating, the lack of media literacy and just critical thinking that people have. I'm just like, wait, what? That doesn't even make any sense. How are you putting these two things together? That's such a leap in logic or like.
Correlation does not equal causation. just like simple, which again, this is a privilege that I have, right? That to me, that seems like simple basic knowledge, right? Because I've had access to great educators or higher education, graduate programs, things like that, like resources and tools and people that I've been able to learn things like that, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:34.028)
And I do see that amongst that is an area where I think that progressive folks could do better, which is the more educated you are, the more likely you are to hold more progressive values. This is and I don't mean that as like this is obviously not everyone who critical skills I'm talking about just on averages like the data shows that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to be.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:34.762)
Can't deal with that.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:48.906)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:53.212)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:01.102)
the less educated you are, the more likely you are to be conservative, to hold those sorts of values. And I think that because so much of the progressive world is fairly well-educated, I think that we could do a better job of what you just said, which is remembering the privilege of that. I think too often we treat that as baseline.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:05.77)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:23.977)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:27.534)
And we expect that everyone should be meeting us where we are. I even feel like I'm someone who holds a master's degree like you do. I'm very well educated. I had parents who were well educated. Education's always been a part of my life. And there are times when I get around a bunch of PhDs in the progressive space where I feel judged. I feel less than. I feel like I'm not invited into the conversation. I'm not welcomed in the conversation. I'm looked down at.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27.625)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:34.856)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (27:47.53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:55.412)
Imagine that like as a master's degree holder that you're feeling that way. What do we think for people who haven't had not only access, but also we have to remember that education starts so much in the home. And when you have a lineage of access being denied and learning that education is perhaps a privilege that you'll never your your people, your family, your lineage will never have the holding that belief and starting to I can even see where there's this like need to then
Taina Brown she/hers (28:06.695)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:17.916)
No, no.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:24.674)
to sort of flip it on its head to be like, well, we don't want education. Education's not for us or whatever, right? And that does become an issue where there isn't in the home an expectation around education. A continuing of education outside of what's just provided through the school system, right? Forget about the school to prison pipeline. That's an entire issue as well. And it's not like we're doing much to educate people in prison.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:36.114)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:40.806)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:50.732)
We don't educate well and there's such disparities inside of the school systems. If you are unlucky enough to not live in an area, I as I live in a really wealthy school district and there are massive differences in access just within that district based on where someone lives and which then often correlates to the color of their skin or their immigration status or many other things. So we often, I think, forget the progressive side of things that...
Taina Brown she/hers (28:54.716)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:05.287)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:16.542)
Education, being educated about these issues is a privilege. And we talk about privilege all the time. And then I feel like that is a blind spot that we often have. And then we talk down to people who don't know, have never had it, and they don't have a reason to know. And again, that's not always an excuse. There's a difference between willful ignorance and true ignorance. But when you talk down to everyone who doesn't have the education you have,
Taina Brown she/hers (29:21.136)
It's not a pass, yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:28.178)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:34.599)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:38.28)
Wofl ignorance, Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:46.19)
So real quick way to exclude a lot of people.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:47.972)
Yeah, yeah, it is. This is why like empathy and curiosity is like, and we talked about like, we talked about this with, what was her name, Danielle? For the, We have an upcoming episode with her, yeah, for the Everything is Political series, but we talked about this, like when you have a difference of like values or opinion with someone, like it's so important to, you know, obviously in the context of a healthy relationship, right? If,
Becky Mollenkamp (29:58.54)
Yeah, Marshall, we're an upcoming in everything with political theories.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:15.738)
if there is no healthy relationship or if it's just someone you just don't care about that you don't need to be talking to that person in the first place. But if it's in the context of a healthy relationship or a relationship that you're trying to preserve on some level, like approaching that difference or that conflict with a sense of empathy and curiosity is so important because it's like, how could they know what you know and how could you know what they know if you don't ask questions, right? If you're not.
like actually engaging and talking about like, well, why do you think that? Like, where did that belief come from? like, well, how could, how, when did you start to believe that? Like, when did you start to think differently? You know, like, cause we all have to start somewhere. Like I remember when I left religion, like that, that was like,
What you're feeling now about the world, about this just blatant sense of doom and just overwhelm over how awful things are, that's how I felt when I left religion. Because I was just like, wait, you mean racism is still a thing? Because I had been brainwashed to think that it wasn't. You mean it's OK for people to not be straight or to not want to get married.
world was just like obliterated. so, and I remember feeling like, like having that sense of like, I don't know who to talk to about this because my entire community was in the church and how do I navigate this? And I had the privilege that that time in my life coincided with me going back to school and I was at a liberal arts private school. And so that gave me a space.
to be around people who thought completely differently than I did and grew up completely differently than I did. It gave me the space and the people to talk to about things like that. But I recognize not everyone has that. so navigating that, it's important for those of us with more liberal views to want to preserve some of those relationships enough to
Taina Brown she/hers (32:34.215)
have those conversations, to ask those questions, because one, we're not.
we're doing a disservice to ourselves, right? Because like some of those relationships have been really important to us for a really long time. Like how do you just cut off that relationship? And I understand it again, if this isn't the context of a healthy relationship, like if there's a pattern of abuse, if there's a pattern of gaslighting, if the other person is just unwilling to engage in generative, if it's a social media stranger, right? Then like by all means, cut it out.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:02.912)
If it's a social media stranger.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:10.939)
Right? Like just cut it off. But if the other person is willing to like work through it with you, if they're willing to like put effort into preserving that relationship, then I think it's important for us to do so as well. And it's not easy, right? And I think we're so used to things being easy all the time that as soon as they get hard, we just give up. We're just like, well, this isn't working anymore. So it must not be meant to be. Right. And it's like, no, there's no such thing as what's meant to be and what's not meant to be.
What's meant to be is what you put your fucking effort behind. Like, that's the bottom line.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:45.902)
Well, white supremacy is a cult. you know, and I mean, we see it. It's interesting because it's so magnified in this MAGA space where, you know, people are like, that's a cult. But the truth is white supremacy is in and of itself as a cult. And many people who aren't in that more extremist sect of the cult are still in the cult. Right. And they're looking at the other people in the cult judging them while they're still sitting in that cult themselves. They haven't.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:07.761)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:13.316)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15.564)
done the work around the brainwashing that they've received. And I'm still doing the work of leaving this cult, right? Like it's gonna be hard because the cult, yeah, the cult's all around us, right? But the first step is like recognizing it's a cult. And white supremacy is, it's a cult. It's brainwashing you into a belief system and training you to exile people who don't agree with that belief system, to other them, to make them bad.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:24.089)
We all are. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:41.741)
Ostracize, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:43.246)
Yeah, and I mean, that is the hallmark of what a cult is. know, misogyny is a cult. All of these systems of oppression, they are cults. And we are brainwashed into them. And it is really hard to leave them. And I think it's also important for us to remember, as we have been efforting to leave them ourselves, that other people are still in a different spot on that journey of leaving it and to try to find that place. Again, like you said, with all the caveats around
I don't have to do this for every random stranger on social media because I also have to protect my sanity. But it would behoove me, and I'm speaking to myself because I am a judgy bitch who has a hard time too with this, but it would be, it is more helpful to remember, to find some empathy for people who are not as far in that journey of extracting themselves from the cult and to be able to find a place of remembering when I was still sitting in that place in the cult. And like, how hard it is, because it's really easy on this side of it to be like,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:13.187)
Yeah.
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:34.649)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:40.526)
Boohoo for you. It's so hard to recognize you have all this privilege and whatever. But I do remember it is lonely. It is scary. It is hard because you are exactly like you said, the same as leaving a religion where that same where it's become a cult like experience where you're not allowed to have people outside of that same cult in your life. Right. So you you're leaving takes an incredible amount of bravery and it does. That does not mean
Taina Brown she/hers (35:41.56)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:48.004)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:57.988)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:01.464)
yeah. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:10.792)
Because it becomes in our social media world, everything becomes these like pithy statements of like, well, then you're you know, all the empathy is for the the people who've caused harm. No, that does not excuse the harm that you've caused by being part of the cult. It does not like mean that I need to center you in every conversation. I certainly don't need to center you, your needs and your your pain above the pain of those that you have harmed by being part of that cult. Where's that? And I can also acknowledge that you leaving that cult is hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:19.544)
No. No.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:33.314)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:40.109)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:40.462)
And that you may be farther behind me on that journey, but it doesn't mean that I have to sit above you that I could if again where it makes sense for my sanity and everything else. But could I not find a way to extend my hand to help you pull you along out of that cult? I have a hard time with that, so I'm speaking to myself, but I think part of it. So going back to like the start of this, which is like the fucking overwhelm. And what do do when you're in the overwhelm? I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:46.616)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:57.301)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:01.742)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:10.218)
some of that is that like, can I find some compassion and empathy? Because I think when I'm feeling that overwhelm, it is easy for me to want to start to other people. Like it's sort of it's us versus them. It's the good guys.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:22.34)
Mm.
Because we need someone to blame, right? We need an easy target.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:29.09)
Yeah. And that feels easy. And it is easier. But it's not necessarily healthier for me, because it only actually amplifies the overwhelm that I'm feeling, right? And if we could all, that sounds a little kumbaya, and I don't mean it to, but if we could all lean into a little more empathy in these moments, it would, I think, just make a world of difference. Because I actually think,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:32.665)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:37.027)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:56.846)
When we're in this place of such overwhelm, it represents a bit of a turning point where we can actually, with the right approach, bring more people into the side of love and light. And I don't mean it like the love and light kind of way, but like towards the right side of history, you know? I don't know, is that a little too... If Paul and Anna, it might be.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:09.38)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:15.416)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, I don't know, but it made me think of this short clip I saw on TikTok a few weeks ago. I think it was Dr. Trussie. She was being interviewed on a news show. I forgot which one.
And I forgot why, what they were talking about, at this point, it could be any number of things, why, right? Any number of reasons why. But basically she was saying, you know, when people feel overwhelmed, usually our instinct is to stop doing things, to just like check out. But studies show that like when you feel overwhelmed, what actually helps is like getting involved, like doing something. And so figuring out.
what that thing is. And that doesn't mean you have to do everything. And it doesn't mean you have to do something every day. So when you start to feel overwhelmed with everything that's happening in the world, and this is how I try to talk to myself also. I don't always do it. And I'm not always that great at it. But it's a habit that I've been trying to cultivate for years now, where it's like when I start to feel overwhelmed, my first question is,
Becky Mollenkamp (39:09.87)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (39:37.555)
what can I do? And it doesn't even have to be something that is outside of the home, right? Like, it can be like, I can clear my desk, or I can call a friend, or I can journal, or I can go for a walk, right? And sometimes it is like doing something to get involved, right? It's like, maybe I'll call my congressperson, right, or my representative, or maybe I'll, you know,
join, like go to a protest or go to a discussion on like, there's a local bookstore here that does a lot of like discussion groups about like political things and things like that. Maybe I'll join one of those, right? And so the data shows like action is actually what helps to reduce the overwhelm. But I think sometimes we get on this pendulum, right? Where we're just like, I'm either doing nothing or I'm trying to do all the things.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:32.492)
right.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:32.578)
And it's like, okay, no, what can you actually do? What do you have the bandwidth, the emotional and the physical bandwidth to actually do today, right? Maybe it's just take a fucking shower and take your meds, you know? But just do something because I think you said at the beginning, overwhelm is the point. It's part of the point. it's how, it's part of the insidious nature of how oppression works, how white supremacy works. And...
that causes inaction, right? And that's how these things remain stagnant. That's how these things continue to be perpetuated because we're so overwhelmed and we're so tired that we can't do anything. can't, we don't have the mental bandwidth, the imagination to do anything, right? But we have to start somewhere. So maybe it is just take a shower, have a glass of water, take your meds, right? Go for a walk.
journal, call a friend, right? Like do something because then that what overwhelm also does is like it makes you feel powerless and doing things activates your power, right? It reminds you of your agency. Exactly. It reminds you that you do have control over some things in your life. It may not be everything and that you may not have control over the things that you want to control, but you do have control over some things and
Becky Mollenkamp (41:38.486)
It reminds you of your agency that you. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:54.087)
Even those little things that practice, right, is going to help kind of break that fog up.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:01.452)
Yeah, I think about it as like starting with eight with resourcing. So starting with your interest internally, because I think like if your body is a car, if you're if you have no gas left, you're not going to get anywhere. So you've got to figure out how do I fill up a gas tank first. And that is not to be like selfish or centering yourself. But it's truly I cannot do anything if I'm out of gas. So the shower, the walk, the talking to a friend, all of those things are like, how do I gas myself up?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:06.497)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:15.167)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:24.598)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:30.262)
So that then I have that energy that's required, the capacity that's needed to do the other things you said, like going to a protest, writing to your congressman. Maybe your activism looks like writing essays that you're sharing in places, right? Our activism can look different, then how do I do the internal work to have the capacity to be able to do that external work? And I also just think about the legacies that we can learn from about how to manage the overwhelm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:37.395)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:44.319)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:52.235)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:00.236)
Because again, and this is speaking through privilege, for those who are having their privilege veil sort of pierced, maybe for the first time, or maybe in a greater degree than they're used to, we have legacies of people that we can learn from on how to manage these moments, right? This is not the first time a group of people have been in crises. This is not the first time that a group of people have felt scared.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:18.443)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:24.738)
that their lives have really been threatened, all of the things, right? None of this is new and maybe new in the way it looks in this moment, but none of it is new, which is why when you get on social media and start saying the sky is falling, if you're a white person or any person who holds a lot of privilege, you're going to hear from other people to say it's always been falling, right? You're just noticing it for the first time. So we can learn from the people for whom the sky has been falling for a really long time and the legacies of what does it look like to survive, to thrive.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:31.37)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:41.898)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:54.516)
even through all of the horrible shit that is done to humans. And one of the things we learn is from these groups is community and collective action. That that is what helps humans survive. We are tribal people by nature, and I don't use that term flippantly. I'm truly in that term of it is that we are as humans meant to survive together. That is the only way we've ever survived in the hardest parts of history. And it continues to true even in these
Taina Brown she/hers (44:11.391)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:17.482)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:22.09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:24.078)
hyper individualistic world we live in now, we need each other and we survive when we have each other. And so if we don't, if you don't have your tribe, if you don't have your community, especially again, if you've been living in a bubble of privilege that you're trying to exit, if you're leaving the cult and all of your people are still in it, you gotta find people. You need people, we need each other. That is how we survive through mutual aid and collective air and.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:44.928)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:49.567)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:51.352)
but also just things like you said for the resourcing. Having someone you can go talk to who isn't social media and is gonna yell it back because those people get on social media, they post and then they're like, well, this sucked and I'm gonna go back in my bubble. Instead, find the people you can talk to who can receive that, who can be with that and honor you and help you as you're on this journey. We all need those people. We all need those people. We need each other. And I just think like that is one of the best things that we can learn from.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:02.43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:06.783)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:14.43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:19.118)
what has worked in the past beyond even just the activist in the street kind of things, which we also need to learn from. But the like resourcing piece, what we learned from people who have survived is they didn't do it alone. No one does it
Taina Brown she/hers (45:26.655)
Thank you guys, thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:31.313)
No, no, no one survives alone. so we're, but we're, you know, taught, especially here in the U S or in Westernized countries, we're taught that like it's every man for himself, but no one has ever survived alone. No, absolutely not. No man is an island. Nope. Nope.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:48.226)
No man is an island.
No, and we're taught that for a reason.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:54.931)
Because it keeps us in check.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:58.626)
Yep, it keeps us from fighting because collectively we're strong. Individually, no, we're not.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:03.071)
There's more of us than there are of them.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:06.99)
by a mile, right? When we look at wealth disparity, which is continuing, like, we're talking 300 people. Truly, if you really look at it, we have 7 billion people against 300 people. I'm not inciting violence here. I'm just saying when you really look at the numbers, I'm like, who truly controls the real power on this globe? It's less than 500 people, less than 500 people.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:12.383)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:19.997)
Yeah. Yeah. That's wild.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:26.239)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:34.015)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:35.948)
And there are 8 billion people on this planet. And yet, because of the ways that we're conditioned, we believe that we have no power. We have no power. It is wild. When you put it in that...
Taina Brown she/hers (46:43.613)
Yeah. Yeah. It is what I'm feeling very existential right now with that framing. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:51.15)
you really put it in that terms it's like what the fuck but you know what how often do you watch like it cracks me up because my husband and i will watch movie action movies or whatever and you always see this i don't know if you've ever noticed it but like there'll be some big fight scene happening and there'll be the the big the big strong guy whoever it is reacher or whoever the big guy is in the movie right joeyne the rock johnson one there'll be 20 people coming to fight the one guy and one at a time they come up and fight the guy
Taina Brown she/hers (47:10.046)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:13.906)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:20.11)
and he fights off the one person. And my husband, I always say, do they not realize that if all 20 of you would just attack him, you could win. But we are so conditioned into not working collectively that that never even, I don't even know how many people watching it even occurs to them because we are so conditioned to do individual action. We are stronger together.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:23.686)
Just attack him at once.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:36.764)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Yes, I think about that too when I when I watch like action movies. I'm like, what? What is happening right now?
Becky Mollenkamp (47:51.512)
Could you two just, could you like all of you talk to each other real quick and say, hey guys, let's do this together.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:56.408)
Like, did y'all not train together? Like, what the hell?
Becky Mollenkamp (47:59.054)
It never happens. It's so funny, but I do feel like it's representative in a way of exactly this of this conditioning that we receive, particularly in Western cultures, particularly in America. But I don't I think because of how pervasive Western culture is for all the colonial, all the colonizing reasons, I do think it's becoming basically a global epidemic.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:04.392)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:11.069)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:16.668)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:20.901)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I think there's still, you know, obviously still pockets here and there where they've resisted that kind of toxic individuality, but globalization. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:35.244)
Isn't it the best supposed to mean lower prices? I guess whatever. Anyway. OK, so I came into the conversation feeling overwhelmed. It's still a gray jury day here. I still feel a little overwhelmed. But what I'm leaving reminded of is I need to always keep resourcing myself. And when things are even more challenging, it means I need more resourcing, not less. And I think often that's where we start to slip into, like doing less for ourselves, you know, as an example, because of capitalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:59.911)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:05.474)
When things are hard, we start trying to like do more because we feel this urge to make the need to make more money. And that can be real that we need to make more money. We can hold both of these things and we are going to be less effective at doing that when we are depleted. So that is actually when we most need to resource ourselves so that we can show up and the sustainability of it. Can I sustain myself in the battle to make enough money? And it's the same here. And I just need to remind myself like I'm going to go.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:15.613)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:22.024)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:28.498)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:35.694)
I'm make sure I find pockets today to do the things that do help me when I'm feeling under-resourced, including taking my medication, because you mentioned it, and I have not taken it today, and I'm going to. So we're both gonna commit to taking our medication. Me too. All right, everyone, take your medication.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:46.334)
haven't taken mine today yet either, so I'm going to do that. Yeah, I'm going to do that after this call.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:55.166)
Drink your water, get some sun. You're basically a houseplant with feelings.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:58.518)
Yes, and this is our regular reminder that fascism is not going away tomorrow. It's not going away in 10 years. And it is overwhelming to feel that. And we can fight it. It just doesn't look like, first of all, the 20 of us, we need to band together and we need to care for each other. So care of yourself and take care of each other. Who says that? Somebody does. I feel like that was like a weather personality or somebody who says that.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:06.13)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:14.685)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:25.347)
like a muse person?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:27.02)
Yeah, someone. I feel like someone was famous for saying, care of yourself and take care of each other or something along those lines. So I'm stealing whoever's line that was. Paraminopause means I don't remember, that's all right. Bye y'all.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:36.059)
Yeah. Bye.