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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
S02 E01: Focus on Business
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Amy (she/her): I'm not gonna get more sales because I get more photos on Sunday. I'm gonna get more sales because I'm selling on site and getting the impulse buy.
You might think photography's all about the technical stuff, the gear, the settings. Some of it is, and we'll get into it. the harder part is what your brain and nervous system do the second you try to make something. The overthinking, the voice that swears you're getting it all wrong. Some weeks we're deep in the craft, some weeks we're deep in your head.
Either way, it's less about the camera and more about the person holding it. Welcome to this week's episode of The Focus Trap. Welcome to season two. Um, holy shit, how did we get here already?
[00:00:38] Two Businesses in One
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Casey (she/her): all right, so today's episode's a little bit different format. It's gonna be a little bit of I get to be in charge, which is fun.
Um, it's gonna be a little bit interview style, so we're gonna be talking about business today, and kind of specifically Amy's business. But I'm gonna be kinda asking questions both out of my own curiosity of where I'm at as a business owner and as a photographer, a little bit of Amy's history.if you are not a business owner,
I think there will still be great photography conversation within this. If you're a business owner, if you've thought about, like, monetizing your photography, I think this is definitely an episode worth listening to. But either way, business or not,
I know there'll still be good stuff in it. So, with that, first question, because we have talked about this some on the podcast, but for folks that are maybe new or haven't caught up on all the episodes, tell me just a little bit about your current business, and you actually have kinda two parts to your business.
Just give us, like, the short version of what are y- what your business is so we have that frame of reference.
Amy (she/her): Okay. So the original business, that started in, uh, '99, 2000-ish is, a dog sports photography business, and I photograph dog sport events, on weekends. And it started out as just in Minnesota, and then it grew to, include national events, and now it's morphed into just doing, national events with an occasional local thing, thrown in. So I travel wherever. I've ... This year I'm literally going coast to coast, so I was in California in March, and I'll be in Florida in December, and I'm other points in between, throughout the year, and, photograph dog sport events. Mostly agility, but a little bit of fast cat and dock diving thrown in for good measure, and for a little variety, which is
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): ADHD brain.
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh
Amy (she/her): and most of the events are multi-ring, which requires that I hire a crew, and I have people that have worked for me for, many years that I bring in,many of them are people that I have trained e- either directly or indirectly,
And then the second part is the, the photography coaching and, and education. I love taking people who have just unboxed their first, you know, big fancy camera and, and helping them learn the basics. And then, all the way up through if someone wants to do dog sports, bring them on as mentees. So I'm really good at diagnosing problems. if you don't know why your photos are out of focus, I can generally track it down in about 30 seconds or less. Um, and then we can build on, you know, whatever those skills are that you're gonna need to, to make things better.
So
Casey (she/her): Nice. Love that. Okay, so
[00:03:16] Why Dog Sports?
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Casey (she/her): I feel like you've talked around this, but I'm not sure if I've ever heard you directly answer this question. Why dog sports? Like, why agility?
Like, how the fuck of all the things in the world, let me ask it my way, how the fuck of all the things in the world did you pick dogs? And you didn't have dogs that ran agility. This wasn't like you were doing agility with your dogs and were like, "Oh, I could also take pictures." So how did we end up here?
Amy (she/her): So I didn't have a dog doing agility, but I had a dog in conformation. That's
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): beauty pageant style. And that's, I didn't start in agility. I didn't start with the, the,
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): of sports. I started with conformation.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): um, started as taking pictures of my friends' dogs, and they would, um, take pictures of me,
it eventually morphed to going to the Great Dane National and doing not the winners pictures, not the formal posed pictures with ribbons, but, but, uh, ringside And this is way back in, I don't remember if my first national was '99 or if it was 2000. Um, but nobody else was doing that, and my thought was, "Well, why is it only the dogs that get the ribbons that get their picture taken?"
I
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I, I literally would sit there every hour of the event at the ring and take pictures of every dog that was in there.
and then had to figure out how to get the word out and,
in that day, nobody knew how to deal with digital photos. And so, well, let's see. How d- how deep do we wanna go on this? My first Great Dane National, I shot on film, and I shot
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): 70 rolls of film.
Casey (she/her): Wow
Amy (she/her): Um, and I came home, and rather than develop them all into actual 4x6 prints, my lab had a service where you could just develop the negatives and not get prints.
And then I bought a, a film scanner and I made them all into digital. and then I would make prints from those. So I still wasn't selling digitals because again, there was no infrastructure for that. Nobody knew how to, to deal with digital photos on any sort of scale. So I think I put them online. I think I had some sort of website, put them online and people could order them. But they could not order a digital. They could order a print, 4x6,
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): 5x7,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): That was it. So in doing confirmation, that's a lot less movement than agility. So I would try and get a stacked picture where they were just standing and get a full body and then try to get a headshot out of that and then would do the movement, which is on the diagonal just down and back at a nice easy trot. You want the moment where the legs are all extended.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): that taught me timing because with film, I couldn't fire off 50 shots and just pull out the best one.
I did fire multiple shots. And so that's part of why I did the just develop the negatives and not go to prints was I didn't want all those prints that I knew I would literally just turn around and chuck them in the
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): with scanning the negatives, then I had control over what actually got printed save myself half the cost of
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): whole process. So starting on something that was slightly slower moving, I also did some portrait stuff
so that was the origin of it. And
Casey (she/her): okay
Amy (she/her): the problem was there was no money in that, at least not on anything other than the national scale.
Like I could make money when I did that at the Great Dane National. I couldn't make money at a normal weekend event. And because of the situation I found myself in, in terms of, you know, having kids and having a husband who,was insistent that if I was going to do this, I had to make money, that
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm
Amy (she/her): the overriding factor of everything, at the bare minimum cover your expenses?
Casey (she/her): Right. Yeah
Amy (she/her): hopefully more than that. But that was the threshold. It had to cover expenses. I could not lose money. you know, too many of those and then it would be this isn't working for us.
Casey (she/her): And I think that's a really, I feel like that's a really common photographer experience. Like, I see that in a lot of the smaller photographers in my area that are stay-at-home moms. They're a hobby, maybe making a little extra income for the house.
And like, I just, I just wanna highlight that because like, back then, well, yeah, and I... True, Anybody can get a digital camera. These cameras are smarter, but put photographers in a different position than when like you were learning on film,
even figuring out that whole process, like holy smokes
Amy (she/her): it wasn't a, yeah, it wasn't even a matter of just, scan it and put it up. I, it scanned and I would tweak it, so I learned Photoshop in that process.
I learned to photograph things that weren't moving particularly fast. headshots were my favorite thing, Great Danes have such beautiful heads, and so, um, you know, that was the, my goal was always to get a really nice headshot of a dog, and those sold really well.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so lots of, lots of stuff came out of that.
And then, I was at a vet appointment with one of my dogs, and she's like, "Well, you do photography, and I know you do photography of dogs. I'm part of a, agility club,
we have an event coming up in July." "Would you be interested in coming and photographing that?" And I knew nothing about agility, um, but I said, "Sure. It sounds fun. I'll try anything once."
So went, and that was, that's the story I think I told
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): uh, in
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, went, took pictures, made money, sort of, you know, at least didn't lose money. Um, that wasn't my first dog show. That wasn't my first
Casey (she/her): Oh, okay.
Amy (she/her): dogs. So at that point I understood, how to set exposure. the Great Dane National was held indoors, so I learned very quickly to shoot in really bad light.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, translated, you know, the skills I had into this faster moving thing and, um, somehow had a sense of timing. Um, well, I'm sure that came from the, the stuff I did with the, the Danes, so.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it was just kinda taking it up to the next level.
Casey (she/her): Okay. That makes sense.
Amy (she/her): loved
Casey (she/her): Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, I've heard you mention the confirmation, but we never really ever talked more about that. It was like, "Well, actually I did confirmation, but then I got into agility," is I think the extent of the version that I had heard.
So
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): how much there was actually in that time and how much you'd figured out before then translating that into
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): then there's the element of the teaching. Like, where did that come in? what I like to see is the pattern of how a business grows.
Because often when we start a business, we have one thing in mind, like, and then there's saying yes to that opportunity and realizing that we love the agility more than the confirmation or that that's where the money is compared to the com- you know? And so I'm always curious how these evolutions come about.
And when I met you, yeah, it's like it, I met you in more of a teaching element were the conversations we were first having. So when and where and how did that pop into the mix?
Amy (she/her): So that came in 2015. there's an online, dog training academy, a Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, Evidently, Denise Fenzi, who runs, runs it, wanted a photographer to come and teach some classes, and because of my proximity to the dog sports world, it was a natural fit.
But I don't know for sure exactly how that happened. But
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): me and, and asked if I was interested, and I said yes. And, uh, taught my first class there in June of 2015. Um, I thought teaching photography was gonna be one class, you know, just how to do photography, and then it
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): morphed into, um, like a second class, and then a third class, and then a Lightroom class, and then, uh...
So I think by the end I was, I had like six or eight different classes that I taught, I no longer teach there, but I still continue to wanna teach and, and work with people, um, to become better photographers
Casey (she/her): Nice. I do find that interesting 'cause as much as you love teaching, and then we've talked about it, that somebody sought you out to be the teacher, not that you were, like, wanting to teach and seeking an opportunity. So I think that's cool, is
Amy (she/her): I, I live in an area where I didn't see any opportunity to do it live and in person. I mean, this
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): in a, a, a small community. And so, um, if I lived in the Twin Cities, then maybe I would've sought, you know, ways to, to
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): person, you know, community, community ed ty- types of stuff. Um, I will also say that the people I would bring on to my crew, um, I would inevitably up, whether on purpose or, or just because I'm a control freak, um, teaching them something in,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): how I would like this done."
And if they didn't know how to do it or they didn't, weren't comfortable, well then it, they would become a teaching moment. Um, so I, I found ways to teach people
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): or not they wanted that was what they were coming for.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): Um, but that, that's always an element. And even going forward, it's still always an element of if you come to work for me, w- hope you go away from the experience being a better photographer than when you came.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I have, I have seen how that has, percolated out into the dog sports photography world. And,
Casey (she/her): cool
Amy (she/her): can talk about that, uh, if you want, but
Casey (she/her): Yeah, that's really cool to see it go beyond we had a conversation about a conversation that was happening in the dog sports community, and you were like, "That piece of advice is something that I teach."
And it was just so funny that it was like your people were having this conversation that you weren't a part of, and, like, seeing it in real time that, like, what you taught them was showing up in other conversations
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): Yeah. That's super cool.
[00:13:36] Learning Photography without YouTube
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Casey (she/her): you've kind of touched on this a couple of times How do you learn all of this before the internet exists? Uh, so, I mean, I know the internet existed. Like, I, I'm, I'm not that much younger than you. But yeah, but barely. And like YouTube and like I think about how I'm learning, and I'm learning little snippets in 60-second videos on TikTok.
I can watch a 20-minute tutorial on YouTube. I have thousands of photographers who have posted blog posts about their workflow, their shutter settings, like all the shit that I wanna learn, somebody else has already done, gotten efficient at, and put a blog post out there.
I'm just curious about the prehistoric nature of your business.
Amy (she/her): I'm a dinosaur. Um, uh, so I learned it in very small pieces and gradually as I went, and I learned things as I needed them. And there, oh, there were books. I
Casey (she/her): Oh yeah, I forget books exist.
Amy (she/her): I b-
Casey (she/her): God, I'm... Oh my God, I'm terrible. That's awful.
that was a long, long time ago that I forget spending hours sitting on the floor in the library with a stack of books for whatever my current hyperfixation was.
Amy (she/her): Oh, I wasn't growing up with a, with adult money and I would just buy them. And
Casey (she/her): Oh, yeah.
Amy (she/her): was starting to come into the, the picture, and that was deadly.
Casey (she/her): yes
Amy (she/her): Amazon only sold books, so what
Casey (she/her): Ja.
Amy (she/her): order? I ordered books. Um, Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson, like to me was the fundamental...
That still is the fundamental, um, book, I think, on how you under- it's called Understanding Exposure. It's... I don't think I read the whole thing, but I read enough to, to get a really strong understanding of manual exposure. Um, and, and I've been shooting manual exposure for almost my entire career. I started out the first year in aperture priority and then went to manual. Um, so books existed, and even they would write Photoshop books And so I had a stack of books and I would go looking for, you know, if I wanted to know how to do a drop shadow, because drop shadows weren't just a one-click thing. You had to
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): actually there was a process, a instructions for creating drop shadows on text. And so I had to look it up in the book and, and follow it step by step. Um, so yeah, I had, I still come across a book i- in a b- in a box somewhere. And of course they're all out of date in terms of the Photoshop or, or whatever. But,
Casey (she/her): Oh, yeah
Amy (she/her): so and I had, um... I mean, my dad, uh, is the one who taught me the basic basics, like to, that's, he's the first person that put a SLR in my hands. Um, I have a friend of my brother's who, uh, shot for, probably still does, um, Associated Press, does a lot of sports stuff, and gave me some of those sports-oriented hints. Um, he was the one who recommended the, that I buy a 70 to 200 2.8. Um, and that was
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): lens for many years until I bought a 300 2.8. And then I'm like, "Oh, this is
Casey (she/her): Ew.
Amy (she/her): Um, so it just was this gradual evolution. And part
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): part of what I think gets... I- I'm gonna push back on how you're learning photography a little bit and say I think there's too much out there.
Casey (she/her): I was actually...
Amy (she/her): point you gotta just stop it.
This is me
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): media. The,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so it's, similar parallel journeys here.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): journey of, of social media is problematic, but it's the same thing where it's, uh, there's too
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): at a certain
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you gotta figure out who you're gonna learn from and just, you know, narrow it down, and pick a path and stop trying to learn it all at once.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her): All right. That's, that feels like a personal attack, which it is.
Amy (she/her): It is a little bit, bit
Casey (she/her): but no, I was, I was gonna ask you that because when you said the words like learning as you needed it, like that hit for me. 'Cause that is, in a way, how I like to learn, to my own detriment sometimes, is I will kind of skip information to get to certain information,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): that out, and then backtrack to like, like I've already been playing in Lightroom a bunch and I'm now taking like a Lightroom foundations kind of course, and I'm like, "Oh, there's easier ways to do some of this shit than how I've been doing.
Oh, that's what that button does. Oh, that's what that actually means."
I love the idea of slowing down, like learning as you need, and I was gonna ask like what do you think about the access to so much information now?
Is 'cause I do, I feel like it's a fire hose and I can turn anywhere and ask a question and get 87,000 fucking different answers to a single question, and then it's like, "Ah, what do I do?
Amy (she/her): A-
Casey (she/her): Now I'm overwhelmed and I'm not gonna do anything."
Amy (she/her): Or you, and you may or may not know how, one is actually the one that applies to your situation.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): one of the things I am grateful for with teaching f- at FDSA is that they have courses, but they all involve feedback.
So that's my, that was how I was introduced to, you know, the idea of, of teaching online, was I wasn't just writing a course and putting it out there and going, "Here, here you go.
Buy it." Um, it was my end- I had an investment in, in, in it too, in terms of
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): am giving you feedback. The number of ways that a beginner photographer can go off track, with,
Casey (she/her): It's a lot.
Amy (she/her): basic information and, you know, they can misinterpret and misread and not understand a, you know, a basic photography class. The number of ways that can go wrong is infinite. Um, and having someone, having a, an expert, having a, an instructor who understands not only that things will go off track, but also being able to quickly recognize where you went off track,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the critical piece of, of online education, and I don't see it enough. I don't This is just gonna me, be me ranting about the current state of, of online education in, at least in photography.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): don't, I don't want a course that is just a set of videos and a set of lectures and I'm left to my own devices. Even if there's a community, because inevitably the community is who gets left to answer the questions, and then
you may know a little more than me, but I don't want to sign up for something and learn from people who have taken the course as well,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): may have gone off track in their own way, and may or may not know how to fa- solve my problem.
Casey (she/her): the problem solving is the key element that I'm finding is it's not... Like, I'm starting to get an understanding for shooting in manual and what some of these settings do and how I want to think about them, but, and you and I were just doing this the other day, is I went out and did a bunch of shooting, and I'm having an issue with a bunch of my photos being out of focus.
I tried to troubleshoot this on my own, and I came down to about six different conclusions, and that just still felt overwhelming and made me feel, like, bad about myself, and that's something to discuss with my therapist. But, like, then I went to Amy and I was like, "Okay." Well, Amy told me to come to her, and was like, "Send me some damn photos."
So I sent some damn photos, and we were able to troubleshoot more. She was able to narrow it down quicker and was like, "Start here, and then if that doesn't fix the problem, then we're gonna look at this next thing." You're talking about kind of from the teaching side of, like, just presenting the information.
I think there's a same problem on the learning side, is we're trying to just rote memorize facts in so much of the teaching that's out there. And I'm thinking through not just photography, but other courses and concepts that I've been learning, is people just want to... I don't even know how to say it.
They just want to absorb the information versus understand. They want entertainment.
Amy (she/her): It's education theater
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): used. You know, we talk about the
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): and security theater, which it
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): I- this is, for me, it's education theater. I'm gonna go sign up for a webinar and sit there and be entertained for an hour, and maybe I'll get to ask my question, and maybe I'll get an answer, but because the presenter has no idea what my photos actually look like, their answer may or may not actually solve my problem.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): I, I... There's a place for that kind of teaching, and I still, you know, I,
Casey (she/her): Oh, yeah
Amy (she/her): plans to get back to doing some of that. But, if someone is serious about learning a thing, it needs to involve that direct contact and that
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): feedback.
the people that I have worked with over the 10 years that I taught at FDSA, the ones who made progress were the ones who were the most involved in the process and took the feedback and implemented it and got better, and many of them have come to work for me.
Many of them have started their own businesses and have been very successful, and I, I, you can't argue with that. I mean,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. And I think it's the...
Amy (she/her): aren't gonna cut it
Casey (she/her): No, and I, I think what's lacking from the student side is the desire to integrate and understand. Like, as much as I wanted you to just solve my f- focus problem the other day, I also wanna understand how I ended up there so that the next time when I'm out in the field and I don't have cell service or I, you know, I can't just ping Amy and be like, "Hey, fix my problem for me," I can troubleshoot where to come from.
And I feel like a lot of learning these days is lacking that desire to understand. People want answers, not
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): And I think that also comes down to, like, the fire hose that is social media and the internet.
I think you have a different philosophy about photography and learning than a lot of people out there, so I like making that detour.
Um, that said
to bring this back to business is what are some like... Hmm, trying to figure out how to ask this What are some changes or trends that you've seen in the business side of things over time, looking over the last couple of decades, that kept you going and, like, crushed other photographers? I think about, like, the change in equipment and even, like, the move from film to DSLR, the move from DSLR to mirrorless.
Um, I know there's trends in styles which maybe impacts you less. I think about, like, wedding photographers, and you can see, like, these generational trends in, like, wedding photography. But, like, what is some of the evolution over time, or how have you navigated that evolution that has kept you going and growing versus potentially getting stuck or run out of business?
Amy (she/her): In some ways I don't know, because I
Casey (she/her): Fair
Amy (she/her): put blinders on and just kind of do what I think makes the most sense to me, and, and it often isn't the same that makes, same thing that makes sense to anybody else. I mean, I fairly quickly went to digital, But a lot of other agility photographers were heavily invested in gear, and so making that change to digital was a bigger deal to them.
I was just, I was new. I had a, a Canon EOS Elan something. It was, you know, kind of that prosumer, but a, a film camera. So I didn't have a lot invested. I had the 70-200, and that still was gonna work on a digital camera. Um, so I was able to make that switch really quickly, and because I'm comfortable with computers and digital and, and that techy stuff, it wasn't that big of a learning curve for me. Um, and so, you know, that, that change definitely was the right one in terms of doing a, a volume-type business. Um, I, but even though it's digital, I did not start selling digitals. A lot of people went to selling digitals only fairly quickly, and I didn't.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): my preference was to sell prints, and in particular collages, photo collages, th- which is something that I started doing, again, way long time ago. Um, and that's where, where I was making my, the most money was on photo collages,
this is one of those things that I was doing collages way before anybody else was doing them. Um, I was sorting by dog name way before anybody else was doing that.
Everybody else thought that was stupid and a waste of time, and I'm like, but I understand decision fatigue,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): if people can see their photos quicker, that means they have more mental energy to buy them, and I will make more money. So, um, just all of these things that Nobody else was doing because
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it wasn't possible on film or because it didn't seem to make sense to anybody else. But these are also things that have percolated out, like I was talking about, out to the wider, d- dog sports photography world. And I'm not saying that I originated the idea of a photo collage. I don't know.
nobody else that I was familiar with was doing photo collages. I know that nobody else that I was familiar with was sorting by dog name. and so then I eventually started seeing it, you know, pop up other places. I don't know if that was they came up with it on their own or they saw what I was doing or they saw what, uh, what somebody else was doing. I've always been kind of on that front edge of things, um, in,
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): respect, and I don't know if I'm answering your question or not.
Casey (she/her): Yes, you are. So what I'm hearing is a couple of the things that have really served you over time as a business owner is experimentation and, like, willing to be the first one doing something, which I think was a little different for you early on without the prevalence of, like, the internet and, like, finding
You know, you don't have Pinterest to, like, go find trends from. But I wonder how many photographers get stuck these days because they're busy chasing the trend versus figuring out what their style is, so the willingness to experiment, and then, a- and the, and trusting yourself to try something.
Like, big things there, that experimentation, that trust in yourself. And then understanding a little bit about your client and buyer psychology, because there is this thing of, like, the decision fatigue, like sorting by dog name I think is genius, and I was shocked to hear that people don't do that.
Because of, what do you mean? I've had some experience, doing, races, and they'll support sort by bib number, and so you can, sort for your, running a
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): I've never run a marathon. Running a 5K. Let's be honest. Running a 5K, and you can, like, put your number in, and you can see the, just your pictures.
And so you don't have to make any decisions. There's no time wasted sorting. But that thing of understanding a little bit even about buyer psychology is so important, is
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): in confirmation, people are obsessed with the looks of their dog. Of course they're gonna want a really nice portrait of their dog,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): the face of their dog.
I'm obsessed with, like, the personalities of my little chaos beings, and so, like, I'm obsessed with the idea of trying to catch the personality on camera. And, you know, and so, like, what is it that, you know, agility people want?
Is that thing of, like, being aware of what the buyer wants, not just the photo you wanna take. I think is a valuable skill, whether you totally recognize that you're doing that or not, but that pattern recognition of what gets people to give me more money, how do I do more of that, is a really good skill
Amy (she/her): I mean, the types of photos I choose to shoot more heavily influenced by what makes me happy than by what makes the buyer happy perhaps.
I think one of the most valuable of feedback is to have a vendor booth at these events, and it used to be just me.
if it was a three-day event, I would photograph on the first and second days, and then I'd run my, the booth on the third day, have all the pictures there all sorted by dog name, and then I would sell. And that was in the days when everybody generally would enter all three days. I think that has changed over the years. But it was basically the same people all three days, and I'm like, I'm not gonna get more sales because I get more photos on Sunday. I'm gonna get more sales because I'm selling on site and getting the impulse buy.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so then you open yourself up to hearing all of the comments that get made, and it's too
I mean, every once in a while I would overhear something that I'm like, "I didn't really need to hear that." But a lot of, "Oh, I wish I wasn't in the photo. Can you take me out?"
Casey (she/her): Hmm.
Amy (she/her): of, "Oh, I don't like that body position by the dog." And, and it may have not been phrased exactly that right, but they would express, you know, preferences for I like this shot, this kind of jump more than this kind of jump. And so I took all of that in and, um, you know, decided whether or not to implement that in the way I was shooting. Um, but that feedback initially, you know, fed into what I was also doing as I was looking at all my photos every night and, you know, deciding which ones to keep and which ones to delete. So it all was this kind of, you know, spiral of, of feedback that became my style, and it wasn't that I was seeking it.
It was that I know what I like, and then I'm gonna, I can, I will modify it or enhance it really with the feedback from the people that come and are actually, you know, purchasing photos.
But that whole, whole feedback loop I think is really valuable, and I think a lot of photographers, i- if a photographer is making the choice to only sell online, A, I think you're missing out on, on money because I never do as well online only as I do if I'm selling on site.
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): B, that feedback and that interaction, I mean, e- even just the, "Hey, these are amazing," to get that, uh, that in person, to have someone tell you to your face how amazing your photos are and how much they mean to them, you know- And, and even seeing a photo and crying about their dog.
I mean, it's all happy tears, but, um, that is really, that can feed your soul for a long time.
Casey (she/her): Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I mean, it's again, one of those things nobody was selling on site.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): no, I take that back. bringing 4 by 6 photos and selling them, and so you do get that feedback to a certain extent there.
But, um, you know, the idea of being able to pick out your photos and then order the, actual product that you want, you're not gonna walk away with anything other than a receipt, but you will get this thing in the mail, and it's
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): what you want. Not, oh, the only thing they sell is a 4 by 6, or the only thing
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): is a 4- an 8 by 10.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so even that was, you know,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): edge kinds of stuff, so
Casey (she/her): I love that. And I love the evolution of knowing your style and what you like, but also combining that with the feedback. So it's not
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): shooting things you hate because that's what the customer expects. Like, that's no fun.
Like,
Amy (she/her): no
Casey (she/her): the hell would you do that? And it's not ignore the customer, this is my vibe, 'cause I've seen that on the internet. Like, "If you don't like my style, go away." Which, yes, but also if you're never getting paid, maybe your style's part of the problem. And so that balance of this is the genre I like, this is the style I like, and this is the feedback.
[00:33:54] 27,882 Photos
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Casey (she/her): that also kind of leads into like another question, is especially in dog sports, when you're operating at volume and speed, how do you manage that and still have a wage that's worth it? I hear people talk about their workflows, and when you do all the math, they're making like 36 cents an hour by the time they deliver a product to a client.
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): more than 36 cents an hour. Like, how, how are you navigating
all of it?
Amy (she/her): make those calculations, first of all. Like, I don't,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): because, uh,
Casey (she/her): I think for you it's
Amy (she/her): to
Casey (she/her): impossible, too
Amy (she/her): Well, I don't know if it's possible or not, but it's never been a metric that I've been interested in. It's The metric for me is, A, are my expenses covered, you know, a crew that I bring in to, to shoot an event. Um, and B, can I pay my bills? Can I, you know, pay the electric bill and my, know, whatever other bills I have? And, and that's been the criteria for me. It's not the smartest I don't claim to be a fantastic businessperson. I, I just do not. Be- and I get, I get a little bit nervous about talking about business stuff because I, I'm not gonna go into the weeds of those kinds of things, because there are people that are much better suited for that kind of conversation than I am. I can pay my bills, and I can pay my crew, and, and I can buy fun stuff. Most of it is all business-related, so I can write it all off. But, um,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): you know, so, so that's the metric for me.
the foundation of your question is about, you know, how do you, how, how do you make a volume business like this work, right? Is that kind of the right...
Casey (she/her): Yeah. I guess a little bit of my question is like, uh, I've seen a debate in the dog sports community of like, do you post-process every photo before you deliver a gallery, or do you just basically go straight out of camera?
And I think about the, the volume in dog sports of like, that's so many hours in post-processing that even if all your bills are paid and your crew is paid and your, your mortgage is paid, is that worth it to then post-process everything versus like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): your workflow, which I know doesn't include that. Um, I- that's a little bit of my question is like, how the hell do you make sure that it's profitable, not necessarily literally in the dollar sign, but the like not burnt out doing a volume kind of business?
Amy (she/her): Okay, let's talk about the numbers that we're, we're dealing with here. So I said that I mostly do, um, national level events these days. Um, so let me give you, at the AKC Agility National Championship in March, the number of photos that I, that we kept, so this was four photographer or was it five? I don't remember now. Um, the photos that we kept, 27,882
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): We kept from a four-day event, 27,882. it reasonable to post-process every one of those photos before I put them up for sale? Absolutely not. Absolutely, not even in a batch. Like, uh, It's just not reasonable. So we work really hard, and this is, you know, me making sure everybody's got their, their camera set a certain way, but we work really hard to make sure that exposure is correct, that white balance is correct, and that, um, the contrast and saturation as determined by the picture style in the camera, um, is all consistent across all of us. and then there's technique in terms of you've gotta get your horizons mostly level. Like, if you've got something at a 30-degree angle, um, uh, generally it goes, even if it's a phenomenal picture otherwise, 'cause I just don't have room for that.
we work really hard to compose in camera and then also have all these other things so that when they come out, I feel comfortable putting them on my website without touching them any, any further, other than to say, "Yes, we're keeping that," or, "No, we're not keeping that." Um, the scale I work at does not lend itself to editing every photo that comes out of the camera that I offer for sale. It just doesn't work. So that's not mine. That's yours.
Casey (she/her): That's my dog.
Amy (she/her): Um, so I think that's an important place to start is that we're talking about this business on a scale that most people aren't doing. Um, and so if you're just doing a weekend event and you end up with, 2,000 photos that you're selling, is that a reasonable number to, to post-process?
Probably. Sure. If you've got some real, if you've got some really good systems and you're very comfortable with the software and you've got the batch, you know, s- do some batch stuff, you can absolutely do that. Um, can you do both that and sort by dog name? Um, I don't know. I won't try and speculate on anybody's, whether or not
your mental bandwidth can handle
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): Um, to me, I can only do one or the other, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): priority is to sort by dog name.
So that's, I'm working at, at numbers that most people aren't working at.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): That even spills over into how I choose to post my photos online. You know, there's Pixieset and there's SmugMug and there's a, all these variety of...
And I, the, the volume I work at doesn't work for any of those. So I have different software. I have my own server, um, and manage it myself, and have software on there that, that runs the ordering system. Um, because I, the numbers just don't work otherwise you know?
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): the number of people hitting my, my website the day a, the proofs go up is, overloads a lot of servers.
And I, and in fact, early on, At that point I was still married to someone who, um, is, is techy enough that he could handle the conversations with tech support to go, "Oh, your ba- you've got too much, too many people hitting the server.
You need to upgrade XYZ." So, and finally I've gotten to the point where I'm like, it's just, it is as big as it needs to be and can handle anything that I throw at it at this point, so I don't get those kinds of crashes anymore. Once I started doing national events, I just, I outpace most of that,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): most of the software and most of the solutions out there. And so I've always had to understand at, things at a deeper level. I've always had to kinda do my own thing. Um, and, and that's just kinda how it's always, always worked for me,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. for you it came down to, straight up capacity of the workflow. it's so blatantly obvious in your volume, but I mean, you say something about, doing a small, local or regional event and only having 2,000 photos.
Amy (she/her): that's still this volume thing where, maybe you do have the capacity, but do you actually have the capacity or are you burning yourself out? Are you hating every second of that editing process? I would hate every second of that process because I know how many pictures of, of mine get
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): The number of, of images that get purchased per show is not anywhere close to 100%.
It's not even close to, to 80 or 90, it's like 20 to 40 maybe. the idea of putting that amount of time and effort into, processing that many images that are never gonna leave, gonna leave the server That will break me. So that's,
Casey (she/her): Yeah. And
Amy (she/her): That
Casey (she/her): feel like I s--
Amy (she/her): like a good option.
Casey (she/her): Right. And I feel like I see that in a lot of photography conversations.
I also have caught myself in this trap when I'm kind of doing some business planning and looking at things of only accounting for the time where I'm behind the camera and with the client in kind of what is roughly my hourly rate. Like, how do I start to price my packages?
it's just that awareness of the whole workflow compared to just the time behind the camera.
And for you, it's such a dramatic set of numbers that, like, the answers are kind of forced and really obvious. But I do think that still translates to smaller businesses of like, yeah, there is more flexibility, but is it worth it? Is there another way you can do this better? Can you learn better out of camera versus having to constantly correct the same mistake in post?
Amy (she/her): It, it tran- also translate to if you have the desire to scale,
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): you need to start building that workflow to scale
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you can't If you find yourself in the middle of a show where suddenly you do have 15,000 images that you need to upload to a website that, um, you know, your plan is limited to 2,000 photos for the year,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): all of a sudden you're scrambling to try and fix all this.
So if, if you just wanna do smaller events, great, keep doing that. But once you start to scale up, either the number of events or the size of events, and I'm starting to see it actually, it, in terms of people are doing, you know, shooting events every weekend, and the, the, the ones that are editing all their photos before they put them up online, and I've even seen a couple come out and admit, "I'm, I'm burning out.
I can't do this." And
Making that shift to I will send out the photos afterwards, after they've been purchased with the edits, and not just editing everything, because
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): is a real thing,
that idea of scale, either the number of events or the size of events, you have to take that into account in your workflow, it's gonna catch you off guard and it's gonna, you know, take your, take you out at the knees, at least temporarily.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): um, yeah, that's the sustainability and scalability,
the best pieces of, of parenting advice I got early on when I w- when I had kids was start as you mean to go on. So
Casey (she/her): Ah,
Amy (she/her): that's always kind of been in the back of my mind. Anything that I do, I think,
Can I scale it up to the level that I need for a big event?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): fits that, if I, if I can say yes, um, or maybe, then I, you know, then I'll, I'll do it. But if it's n- not gonna scale ... Your dogs have lots to say today.
Casey (she/her): the horses are out in the pasture across the street. Mika does not like the big d- the big dogs.
Amy (she/her): The big dogs.
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): Okay. Yeah. No, it's fine. We have dogs. Shit happens. I throw Post-its at mine when he starts licking his
Casey (she/her): Yes. Right. Yeah, she just likes to sit in my window and, and bark at the dogs, at the horses.
I think that scale- scalability and sustainability, whatever your level you're at, are so worth keeping in mind. Because like, like I was saying, it's not just the time behind the camera, it's the whole workflow, it's your long-term goals. It's, it's not burning out, which I think we both see a super high rate of in creative industries, in the photography industry, and I think a lot of that comes down to scalability and sustainability, and being honest with yourself about those in your process.
So,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): cool.
Amy (she/her): really exciting when you're starting out to be
Casey (she/her): No wiem
Amy (she/her): to do events, and you keep saying yes and yes and yes, and then suddenly you find yourself, um, not sure which end is up because you have
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): to, to process. And,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): then you're not making money because you're not getting your proofs up.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): it's, it's a big snowball of co- of, of problems here that you're dealing with, so. And
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): not a saint by any stretch. can easily point at myself at times and I have not gotten proofs up on the, timeline that I want. Um, but, you know, we're all human,
Casey (she/her): I think a little bit of this is a rite of passage as a business owner. Like, I've been running a coaching business, I've been working online for a decade, and like, I have periodically ran myself into burnout in every single business I've ever run because I- that's part of running your own business.
So not saying that you're gonna avoid this, but I feel like it's a conversation I don't see enough in some of the photography spaces of, of being aware of this and being very intentional about choices around what are your deliverables. Um, I think about myself even with like portrait gallery stuff is like, am I delivering a 30 photo gallery or a five photo gallery?
That's a huge difference in my workflow and photos that might have more editing to them as part of the expectation. So just being aware of that.
[00:46:48] Rookie Mistakes
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Casey (she/her): So aside from the like scalability, sustainability, burnout conversation, I'm curious for photographers listening today, what is the number one rookie mistake that you think they're guaranteed to make?
Amy (she/her): So my autistic brain does not think in the, in those terms.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): I will give you an answer, it's not actually gonna answer that question. But,
Casey (she/her): That's fair
Amy (she/her): The way I will answer this is to say I think there's a lot of putting the cart before the horse. There is what's my logo gonna be, and
I need to design my website, and not enough time behind the camera make sure that your skills are up to, up to par with what you are trying to do. any time you're, you're doing something for the first time, there's gonna be weird stuff that happens. It just is. So maybe that's the, the number one rookie mistake, is assuming everything's gonna go flawlessly, and then not knowing how to pivot and how to react when things don't go well. But if you're building a photography business, your photos need to be solid. They don't have to be perfect, they don't have to be as good as they ever will be, but they need to be really solid, and you need to be, have some consistency in what you can produce. Um, and that's, I guess that's what I would say.
Casey (she/her): I've seen this in, again, in years of working in the online space, like the branding is so fun and satisfying, and so people get so deep into trying to brand the business before they've ever gotten good at what they do or, like, tested the proof of concept that they can even sell this thing.
So with photography, like you said, that consistency behind the camera before you even worry about the rest of it
Amy (she/her): I'm always fascinated by the people who are proud of how old and, and of date their camera gear is. And like, "Look, I can still do this and my camera is 20 years old." I'm like, you are a photographer. Maybe you don't spend as much as I do on your gear, but I'm kind of in the extreme sport version side of photography. But at some point, at some point you should get some, you know, get some gear that's made in the last five years maybe, and, and enjoy the fact that you don't have to work so hard to get a photo that's in focus.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): I, that's always been a, a mystery to me It used to be that I didn't have exclusive contracts, and that was
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): fine with me 'cause I didn't have a crew. I didn't have enough people to cover a multi-ring event, so a club would bring in enough photographers that all the rings were covered. And there were always conversations then and, and, you know, I wanna know what they're shooting with, and we always had slightly different variations of workflow how we did things, and I was always fascinated by the ones who would talk about what they were gonna get next, the thing they wanted to improve in their business. And, you know, the, the camera was never at the top of that list. And for me, the camera's always been on the top of that list because I am selling photos.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): piece of equipment that creates the photos is the fucking camera.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, I, I, yeah. That's, I don't know where that came
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): But
Casey (she/her): I think it's a, I think it was a good little soapbox.
Amy (she/her): That's, yes. I don't announce my soapboxes, I, I realize them in
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I'm like,
Casey (she/her): they're there.
Amy (she/her): I'm stand- It's there." Yeah
Casey (she/her): Oh my gosh. Um, okay.
I do have one last question. This was written down in a different spot, so I forgot that I wrote it down. Um, and this is more so from my snoopy side, because if you get to know me, I'm a snoopy bitch. what are your long-term visions for your business?
You've been doing this for 25 years. We've talked about, the physicality of being a photographer. Like, n- you're still plenty young, but, like, at some point your body's not gonna wanna sit ringside for four days in a row and drive across the country.
Do you have long-term visions, or are you still kind of following your nose?
Amy (she/her): Uh, I, I've still kind of following my nose, um, just seeing where things go. this is a very physically demanding job. Um, and unless I can hire roadies, which is always... When I win the lottery, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fly in private jets, and I'm gonna have a road crew
Casey (she/her): Nice.
Amy (she/her): set up for me.
That's the...
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): there's my vision. I'm gonna manifest it.
Casey (she/her): Love it.
Amy (she/her): but haven't done that yet. at some point, this will become physically too difficult in some way. that's where the teaching comes in, I think. I joke that I'm gonna just keel over at my desk one day and die because, you know, the, the benefits for those of us who are self-employed are a challenge.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so I don't know. Long-term vision, I just, I wanna keep doing what I love. I guess I would love to shift a little more into bird photography or even dog sports photography workshops,
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): training, in person because then I get to control the parameters a lot more. Um, you know, bird workshops, it's we're up first thing in the morning and maybe we'll go out again in the evening, but there's this long gap in the middle of the day where we can, edit photos and nap and things like that, that just don't happen at a dog show.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): no birds are knocking on the window saying, "Hey, when can I see my photos?"
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): Um, so that's a nice
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah
Amy (she/her): but I don't know. I mean, if you had told me 25 years ago that this is where I would be, I would've probably laughed in your face. I mean, I had no idea where that was going. things just kind of seem to... I, they're not happening randomly.
There is an intentionality behind it, but it also is, a lot of just following my gut and, you know, I got national events by not shying away from meeting people that could eventually put me in a position of, of doing the events that I wanted to do. It was, "Hey, it's really nice to meet you. If you ever find yourself in a position of needing a photographer for that event, I'd be, I'd love to have that conversation." So, um, that's, that's, how things have happened for me, is just being in the right place at the right time and knowing the right people, I guess.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): Um, and so I don't, I can't script that. I can't-- I'm not a five-year plan kinda person.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): as, as much as I think the autistic side of me would love that, um, the ADHD side is, side of me goes, "Fuck no." It's just not how things work.
Casey (she/her): know, no, per the plan.
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): All right. Well, keep following your nose. That's, I'm same. It- that's how I like to figure out what's next, is just keep trial and error and what feels good If anybody in the audience has questions, we love hearing from you all.
Um, what is it? Thefocustrap@gmail.com. If you've got questions we missed and follow us in all the places on all the social medias, @focusstrappodcast. We'll put it in the show notes. I don't remember off the top of
Amy (she/her): Everything.
Casey (she/her): my head.
Amy (she/her): We'll put all,
Casey (she/her): will be in the notes.
Amy (she/her): in the show notes.
Casey (she/her): Yes. Okay.