Safe Travels

In our second episode from Redwood National & State Parks we sat down with the Burn Boss and Forest Ecologist, Lathrop Leonard. Lathrop has been studying and restoring the redwood forest for nearly 20 years, his passion and love for these trees shone through in this episode as we chatted about the biology and ecology of the redwood tree. 

Additionally, we also talked about prescribed fire and how this burning methods can help promote a healthy ecosystem. 

I hope you enjoy this episode! I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with Lathrop and am very thankful for his work in the beautiful coastal redwood ecosystem. 

You can also watch this full episode on YouTube! 

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Creators and Guests

Host
Joey Liberatore

What is Safe Travels?

Safe Travels explores National Parks and wild places through in-depth conversations with the people who know them best - park rangers, scientists, biologists, geologists, archaeologists, and conservationists.

Each episode goes beyond travel tips to uncover the science, history, wildlife, and conservation stories that bring these landscapes to life.

Hosted by Joey Liberatore, Safe Travels Pod turns expert insight into engaging, accessible conversations - helping listeners experience public lands with deeper understanding and appreciation.

Speaker 1:

Hi everyone. Thanks for checking out the Safe Travels Podcast. My name is Joey. Today I'm at Redwood National And State Parks and I had the chance to sit down with the Byrne Boss and Forest Ecologist for California State Parks Lathrop Leonard. We talked all about the biology and ecology of the Redwood tree.

Speaker 1:

I am so excited to talk with you. This park is absolutely gorgeous but before we get into your story and then of course we'll talk a lot about the ecology and biology of these beautiful redwood trees, I'd love for you to kind of explain and walk us through where we're sitting right now.

Speaker 2:

So we're in Prairie Creek Redwood State Park which is part of the Redwood National and State Park partnership. And I took you to this particular spot because this is really one of the gems of the park in that we're near some of the biggest trees on the planet, some of the tallest trees. And one that's also has been fairly dynamic over the thousands of years because we're right next to a prairie. And sometimes when you get on the edge of these two very different ecosystems, a deep dark forest like this and an open grassland, you get a weird or a unique mixture of things going on. And there's of course species that are relying on the prairie and species that are relying on the old growth.

Speaker 2:

And some species that like a mixture of the two, such as the elk and deer who love to go out there and graze in the grasslands, but they also come and seek shelter and have babies in the forest. So this is kind of a fun place to be for me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I agree. This is incredible. And before we sat down to do this podcast, you took me inside of this tree right here and wanted to do the podcast inside of it. But it's a little dark in there.

Speaker 1:

But this tree is really unique. There's kind of two trees growing here. What exactly happened here and there's burn marks on this tree. So what what do you think the story is between with this redwood tree right here?

Speaker 2:

Well, I thought it would be such a neat idea to be able to have a podcast from inside of a redwood tree right now.

Speaker 1:

I think that is a great idea.

Speaker 2:

Inside of a tree. But it turns out that, yeah, like you say, was a little bit too dark in there. But the reason that we could get inside of that tree is one of those big influences on the environment in this particular area is fire. And since time immemorial, as we say, this area has been managed by Native Americans. And one of their main management tools was prescribed fire.

Speaker 2:

So this particular tree and all the trees, all the large trees in this area have seen fire come through here for thousands of years and fire very frequently. Know, that prairie out there was probably, they were probably burning it every other year, every two years, three years, maybe every four years, somewhere around there. And those fires would not just burn the prairie, but they'd creep into the surrounding forest. And in some cases, would like the forest intentionally, not just near the prairie, but in other areas they were trying to manage. So over all those centuries, this tree got damaged by some of those fires in a way that allowed the bark to peel off.

Speaker 2:

And then the fire could get into the heartwood and the interior wood and start burning it. But one of the incredible things about redwoods is their resiliency to all these different factors such as fire. And you can see in this particular one, there's this giant stump of a dead tree right next to the tree we went into. And so probably what happened is this big tree was here for thousands of years and something, whether it was a fire or something else, finally killed that tree. But another tree, the tree was able to sprout a new tree from the roots.

Speaker 2:

And that tree is also burned out now. And it's still thriving, but it's also incredibly damaged. And if there were any other species, it would probably be dead and on the ground. But because of some of the unique characteristics of redwood trees, it's still alive, it's got a great big crown, a lot of life in it, it's growing well, but it's big enough we could have stayed out of a rainstorm inside of it and had a nice we could we could probably sleep, what do you think? Three or four people

Speaker 1:

there pretty easily? Easily. Yeah. You can have a feast in there and enjoy Yeah. It's incredible.

Speaker 1:

Well, I can hear your passion for these trees and for the prairie right across the way from us And I wanna talk more about the prescribed burns a little bit as you are the burn boss for this area. But I wanna back up a little bit and learn about you and what drove you to forestry and for you to fall in love with these great big trees, the biggest trees on earth. So where where did it all start for you and your love for the forest?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, I think even as a kid growing up and I grew up in was born and raised in Louisiana and even then I really just loved the outdoors and nature and I used to spend a lot of time in the forest and even the swamps and the bayous catching snakes and turtles and just getting to know my local environment. And that really came to fruition in a lot of ways for me when I moved to Western Washington and got involved in forest restoration where I helped to manage a lot of forests that had been harvested, that had been clear cut by timber companies for all the wood products that we depend on that come out of forests. But the land I was working on up there was similar to within the parks here where ownership changed and it was then going to be managed to promote more natural conditions and old growth conditions and to help all of our organisms that are reliant on old growth forests to have a place to live. And so the whole forest restoration really became my passion starting up there. And then I was fortunate enough to get land work doing that in the Redwood National And State Parks after working in Washington.

Speaker 1:

And how about your experience? I know you told me off camera in Colorado going to school. Was that experience like for you? What did you learn in Colorado that drove you here?

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah. So Colorado was a place where I really got to, I did my undergraduate degree there and really as an ecologist learning more about how all the pieces fit together and how ecosystems are this just an interesting balance of different organisms working together or against each other to find their niche. And just understanding things like, for example, like the pileated woodpecker makes cavities in trees to nest in. And all these other tree, all these other organisms rely on the old cavities that the pileated woodpecker makes to make their own homes. So understanding that interconnectedness of all the different organisms and how these systems work to create these natural places really just fascinated me.

Speaker 2:

And then taking that into the world of restoration was really fun for me to just see which what's missing from this particular ecosystem that was here historically and I really started to get a feel for that in Colorado and in the in the mountains of in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. You you just alluded to it like most of these national parks that we travel to and explore Mhmm. Claim themselves as preservation parks. You're preserving geological significance and places of beauty. Here it's a bit different.

Speaker 1:

It's a restoration area. All the parks are working together to restore the old growth forest that once existed and thrived here and now are thriving here. Again because of people like you and your efforts and and restoring these old growth forests. What is the is the difference between those two and and how do you go about restoring a beautiful place like this?

Speaker 2:

Well it's really tricky because you know we're we're staying in an environment with trees that are 1,000, 2,000 years old or even older. So it's not like we can just flip a switch or do this thing and boom, you've got 1,000 year old trees. It just doesn't work that way. So really my job is much more about putting a forest on a trajectory that will allow it to develop those old growth characteristics on its own. So trying to figure out what is it lacking and what does it need to help it to get there.

Speaker 2:

And I'm really a firm believer in the environment has to get there on its own to some degree. But we can help it get there and find ways to manage it to improve that. And of course a big part of why this is is in the Redwood, their natural range, 95% of the forest has been cut down. So we're down to that remaining 5% that's left or less. And because of the number of people in this world and how much is going on, we as a culture, as a society have decided that's not really enough.

Speaker 2:

And part of the reason it's not enough is that people love it so much that they come in and they're using it. And by using it sometimes, I think you're going to get into this later, they end up damaging it in some way. So we need places. We need enough forest where people can come and visit it and love it and appreciate it. But we don't overuse it and end up abusing it because of just the sheer number of people that wanna come and see it.

Speaker 1:

And I think as we learn about this tree and how incredible and resilient as you said earlier this tree is, People want to come here and do exactly what you just said. Love it, appreciate it, take care of it and make sure that it's here for their kids kids and and generations to come. So diving deeper into the Redwood, you just talked about 95% of the original range of the Redwood is is no longer here. So we're looking at the 5% remaining of of the Redwood. What makes this tree so special?

Speaker 1:

Think when you come here and you see these 300 foot plus trees, some people might come and just say this is a really tall tree, how cool and kind of move on to their next part. But they're way way more interesting than just a very tall tree. In your opinion, what sets your Redwood tree up and apart from your Douglas firs that are around or you know a tree that you find kind of roaming throughout The United States. Why are they so special?

Speaker 2:

Well so let me start with why a lot of people think they're special and that is like you say, world's tallest trees, right? Okay they nailed that one. Hands down, redwoods are the world's tallest. A little less known is that even how much biomass or living tissue there is on a plot of land, redwoods hand down the most biomass of any of any other ecosystem on the planet. And then if you include the dead wood or the dead organic matter or the carbon, how much carbon can you sequester on a plot of land, again nothing touches redwoods.

Speaker 2:

They don't even come close. Now one claim to fame that people are also familiar with is what is the biggest tree in the world? Well, the biggest individual tree in the world is its cousin, the giant sequoia. Very impressive trees, love them. But one of the reasons they're the biggest trees in the world is because most of the giant sequoia stands are still standing that were here hundreds of years ago.

Speaker 2:

They are not, they have not been that as valuable of a timber. If you were to go back two hundred years before all these redwoods were cut down, the largest individual tree on the planet was also a coast redwood, not a giant sequoia. So we've lost the biggest and the best but we still have some superlative examples of what old growth redwood forests look like. So that's the start of what makes these Redwood trees I shouldn't go on too long about it. The other

Speaker 1:

So thing pleased to.

Speaker 2:

Is their incredible resilience compared to just about any other tree species out there. One of the reasons they can live to be 2,000 years old is because their resistance to decay. Like you look at this tree and this giant cavity in it, three quarters of the trunk of the tree is gone and the inner wood is exposed to the elements. Now in most cases that would mean bacteria and fungi is going get in there and it's going to decompose and the insects are going get in there and burrow in and provide an avenue for the bacteria and fungi to get in there even quicker. But in redwoods, that doesn't really happen at the same pace that it does in other trees.

Speaker 2:

And so this tree is able to survive through all those hardships. And like I said with this one, even if you kill the main stem with a fire or with a chainsaw or whatever, more than likely it's gonna come back from the stump and sprout a new tree and there's very few trees that are able to do that, especially conifers. So it really makes it kind of a really special tree for me in many ways.

Speaker 1:

And is that what made it so valuable during kind of the economic boom in this area and during the kind of like lumbering boom is is its resilience and the need for it?

Speaker 2:

That's a big part of it is because it is so resistant to rot. It's really so useful for building so many different things. And that's changed over the years. Now we use it a lot for building decks and fencing, but it's been used for railroad ties and for even for stakes for growing your grapevines on historically. Any time, and we're living in a very wet environment here.

Speaker 2:

I think we get over 60 inches of rain where we're standing right now or where we're sitting. That's a lot of wet and most wood just really does not last long in that environment. But the redwoods persist and you can see some of the logs and wood on the ground that have been there for centuries and it's still if you were to cut it up you would found find solid sound wood in the in the middle of there that you could use to build a house or something else with.

Speaker 1:

Backing up a little bit, you talked about how we lost some of the biggest and the best and that the coastal redwood was the biggest tree on the planet at one point. Because of the work that you and your team are doing in the National Parks paired with the the state parks are doing, will the biggest and the best tree in the world exist here in the future?

Speaker 2:

Well that's exactly what we're trying to do here right. It's like I said most of what I do is about restoring clear cuts and trying to get them back to a stable state that will allow them to grow into the old growth forest that like we still have in this area. But we also actually obviously want to protect the old growth forest that we have. So that's another part of our job is to look at what the stressors are out there and how we can keep them in a somewhat pristine state.

Speaker 1:

I know for years the park was going back and forth between we have the the tallest tree in the world. Now there's another tree we found in the park that's now the tallest tree in the world. Right now it's considered to be Hyperion. What has made that tree stand out and allow it to grow to the height that it has? Is it because it exists in that healthy old growth forest?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean tree, these forest, these trees definitely do better in a forest. And they don't grow as well on their own in general. Yes. And especially if you're talking about things like the tallest trees. Work together.

Speaker 2:

They protect each other. The roots underground, they fuse with their neighboring trees so they're sharing resources. And when you talk about tall trees it's also wind. If you grow up by yourself, then you've got to face all the wind on your own. But in a forest, you're protected from the wind by your neighbors.

Speaker 2:

And that's what we see in these forests. The wind is blocked by their neighbors And then because their roots are fused, even if the wind does pull on them, it's not just pulling on the one tree, but the tree that that tree is attached to. So that fused root system helps hold them in place and make the whole environment overall more stable.

Speaker 1:

You led me perfectly into kind of getting into the biology of the redwood tree. What are the different components that make up a Redwood tree from the crown all the way down to the the root system? What are the levels of it?

Speaker 2:

Well, we were talking earlier about there's before we were on camera about there was a there's actually two types of needles. So if we start at the very top of the tree, there's sun needles which look completely different from the the needles on lower down on the Redwood tree. You think you can think of a lower down on the Redwood tree, the needles look like a typical fir, sort of a typical kind of firs tree with needles. But the very top of the tree, the needles look a little bit more like a giant sequoia. They're very short and stout and they retain moisture much better.

Speaker 2:

And so when you're at the very top of the tree, you're stressed by moisture more than down below. Not only because it's hard to pull water up to the very tip top of the tree, but also you're out in the sun exposed to the elements in the wind and it's just drier up there. So you don't have, you can't, it's much easier to lose moisture to the elements and it's harder to hold onto it. So we've got a completely different morphology up there. And then of course from there you're working into all the branches that lead into the trunk of the tree.

Speaker 2:

And within the tree itself, the bark is of course on the outside protecting the tree from the elements. And then you get into the cambium which is the active layer of the tree where that's sending water and nutrients up from the ground and it's sending the energy that the sugars that the tree has created with its needles gets sent down into the roots and other parts of the tree. That's all that, it's the circulatory system if you will of the tree is all happening within the cambium. Underneath the cambium is the sapwood of the tree, which is kind of the more active part of the tree where there's some storage of nutrients going on. And then the heartwood is in the core of the tree.

Speaker 2:

The heartwood is that part of the tree that I was talking about that's really so resistant to decay and can last so long without rotting away. The sapwood actually is very vulnerable to decay because it doesn't have all the tannins and other chemicals that the tree stores in the inner heartwood of the tree. And then finally, of course, is the roots of the tree that are all underground. They most of those roots are within the top two or three feet of the soil. They occasionally go a little deeper, but they generally are finding everything they need right up near the surface.

Speaker 2:

So there's no reason for them to go deep. And that's of course, all depends on where you are, but that's in contrast to something like a lot of the trees in a very arid environment. They'll send a tap root down, one single root deep, deep into the soil to get into the water table so that it can draw water during the driest part of the year. Redwoods, they don't need to do that because they tend to have some moisture available to them year round from just getting stuff from near the surface.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes you can take for granted that a tree is tree is alive when you're hiking through the forest. You can sometimes feel alone on your trail and just by yourself but everything you just described of almost their intelligence of being able to tap into different resources and finding exactly what they need and sending it resources from one tree to another makes you feel like we're sitting around other live organisms that are working as we're sitting here just talking to each other which is incredible. It's fascinating.

Speaker 2:

It's an incredible like how they're working together too and and the sharing, you know, is a part of the tree ecology that we're still in the early stages of understanding, think. It's how they share nutrients, share resources, and communicate with each other. Even when to make cones, like there are years where these trees make a lot of cones and disperse a lot of seeds and there's years where they make very few. And it's not just at the individual tree but it seems that there's years when the forest makes a lot of cones and there's years that the forest does not make many. How are the trees communicating that this is a good year to make cones?

Speaker 2:

I have no idea. Somebody should figure that out.

Speaker 1:

I agree. And you seem like the man to do it. How about tannin? Why is tannin so important in the in the redwoods?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So redwoods actually put a lot of energy into producing these tannins and these tannins are different chemicals that are just taste awful to to bugs and to bacteria and to fungus. Nothing seems to really want them and so they divert a lot of resources into into making these tannins and storing them in the heartwood and again they're playing the long game because they're going to live, going, they're shooting to live a thousand or more years and so they may grow slower because they're, actually redwoods grow remarkably fast. But they don't grow as fast as some of the other trees in this forest in their younger years because they're they're diverting a lot of their efforts into making these tannins. But the tannins again are there to make that rot resistant wood that will not fail them and lead them to death.

Speaker 2:

You think about it like the way that most trees die, if it's not in a fire or a drought, it's something gets them. A fungus, a beetle, something starts to get them to decay and then they fall over. And so that's going to happen to most trees if they don't burn up or dry up first. One strategy would be to make a lot of babies before you fall over. Or in the case of the Redwoods, the strategy is make it so that your heartwood really doesn't want to decay so that you can live a long time and have many, many different years to try to make more babies.

Speaker 1:

That's crazy. Yeah. It's incredible. And does the tannin also give it its redwood color?

Speaker 2:

It does. That's where that color comes from and in fact if you look at the sapwood, it's a very pale, kind of an off white color compared to the deep rich red colors of the of the heartwood of a redwood tree.

Speaker 1:

Is there any other biological facts or things that you find interesting about the Redwood that's little known as you said earlier?

Speaker 2:

So it's also a little interesting. We talk about how it's so resistant to decay. And again, you look at our giant friend here that it looks like it's in great danger of falling over because of all the missing wood that was burned up in hundreds of fires over the years. But it's a really strong wood in that it's still able to hold itself up with very little wood to support it. I mean, if you look at the crown of this tree, how many thousands of pounds there are material up there, You need a really strong structure to hold it up.

Speaker 2:

But at the same time, despite being so strong, it's also a reasonably softwood. It's technically called in a softwood grouping because if if you dig at it with your with a sticker with your fingers, can kind of make a mark in it. Now you try to do that one like a maple tree or a tan oak tree. The wood is much harder and resists that kind of damage. So you can be both strong and soft at the same time which is kind of ironic, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

It's a good life lesson.

Speaker 2:

There you go. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. In a previous episode, Carla said that there's a Redwood recipe on why they grow in this area of the world in in Northern California. What is the Redwood recipe that they need from the environment to grow like they do?

Speaker 2:

Well you know what Redwood's their their weakness I suppose if you could say is moisture. They need a wet environment and a mild climate. They don't do well when it's really cold, when it freezes hard a lot. And they don't do well under dry conditions. Now, and that's kind of interesting to think about because we live in what's called a Mediterranean climate, which is mild.

Speaker 2:

But it also is a climate where for many months over the summer, there is no rainfall. We get zero rain. And here we have a moisture loving species. So how do you deal with that? Well, you live in the fog belt is a big part of it.

Speaker 2:

And during a lot of the year, a lot of that summer when it's really dry and not raining, actually there's a lot of fog. And the Redwood tree, other some other trees as well, is really good at absorbing that fog and pulling in moisture from the air to keep it going and having that fog condense on the needles of the tree and drip down to the ground to even make the forest wet underneath it. There's many times where you can walk in the forest during the foggy time of year where when you're out in the open, it's dry and there's very little moisture on the ground. And you walk under the canopy of a redwood tree or or some of the other trees in the area and it's soaking wet because the fog has been captured by those needles, condenses on the needles and it drips down to the ground. So it's in a way it's kind of making its own climate and a climate that's more conducive to it living.

Speaker 1:

That's fascinating. What we talked about this off camera. One thing that I find incredible about the Redwood tree is that it needs this perfect recipe from this ecosystem in this climate. But at the same time as you just alluded to it kind of creates its own ecosystem that allows other organisms both animals, plant species, etcetera to also thrive. So it needs this ecosystem but there's a whole other ecosystem that depends on the Redwood also existing here which is fascinating the ecology that the Redwoods bring just by their presence here.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah. They they don't live alone. There's a whole community built up with them and one of the most interesting thing to me about that about that community is just about any plant or organism that you see on the ground, you can also find up in the canopy of these trees. One of the things that happens when these trees live as long as they do is they often get damaged in some ways.

Speaker 2:

And that damage, like let's say the top breaks out of a tree or something else damages the top of the tree. Maybe it's just died, the very top of it dies. And it may send up two or three new branches, new trunks to be the new top of the tree. Or even sometimes one of these side limbs turns upward because it's getting enough light from above to turn upwards and become really a tree on its own. As canopy gets more complex because of these different occurrences or different ways it's damaged, it provides a great place to catch debris which can then decompose and become soil.

Speaker 2:

It provides a great place for seeds to get deposited and to grow. And so this is how all these organisms, all these plants that you see on the ground end up finding little nooks and crannies up in the tree and then they grow up there. Now once all that is established up there, find a whole another set of organisms that can use that habitat. And one of the more famous examples is the wandering salamander that can spend its whole life in the tree, reproduce, have babies, make more salamanders without ever coming back down to the ground. And so diverse as the ecosystem is up here on the ground that we're looking at, there's a whole another world happening up above us that we're still learning about how that works and what's going on up there.

Speaker 1:

That's incredible. Are there birds that nest and make homes in the redwoods up there too?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Yeah. There's in fact there's some endangered birds that live up there. Again part of that the marble muralette is one of the more famous examples that uses needs really big trees because it it likes the big flat platforms up there in order for it to nest Or the northern spotted owl that likes those broken tops and big cavities and other holes and places to make their nest. They don't like these healthy conical shaped trees with no unusual structures or kind of boring to spotted owls because there's no great place for them to make a nest.

Speaker 2:

They like the damaged ones that have more unique structures going on and and little hidey holes if you will where they can make their nests. So that diversity of of canopy structure is a key component to making these forests as diverse as they are.

Speaker 1:

And when you say new trees can grow out of a Redwood tree, is it a new Redwood tree or can it be any tree that gets a seed out there?

Speaker 2:

It can be anything. I've seen, you know, Doug firs and white pines and rhododendrons, huckleberries, just about any plant you see on the ground you can find in a redwood tree if you look hard enough.

Speaker 1:

And can you talk about the fairy circle or the family circles that you find are redwoods? You talked about a little bit that redwoods typically grow together. Is there specific structure to that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So this is one of the few conifers in the world that can sprout from the stump. And so sometimes that happens when the tree, if the tree dies. So underground around the base of the tree especially, there's dormant buds that are waiting for the opportunity to grow. And so especially after fire or some kind of damage or even an increased amount of sunlight getting to the forest floor, maybe from a neighboring tree falling, that seems to send kind of a signal to the tree that, Okay, there's a new opportunity here for things to grow.

Speaker 2:

And so when those kind of things happen, sprouts will come up from the base of that tree and grow a new tree. Genetically it's the same tree but they often form these fairy rings that they say especially like after big tree dies, you could get a ring all the way around it of sprouts. Sometimes hundreds or thousands of sprouts coming from one individual tree and then over time they usually tend to kind of self thin. But eventually you can end up with a ring of really giant trees growing up around either the mother tree or around the dead stump of the tree that was there originally. So when I say that a tree, these trees grow to be 2,000 or more years old, I'm talking about the tree that we see.

Speaker 2:

But that doesn't mean that that 2,000 year old tree isn't growing from the stump of a tree that had grown for two thousand years before it died. So in the bigger picture, how old are these trees? I don't know. They could be much much older than that.

Speaker 1:

That's what I was gonna ask next. And this might be kind of a crazy question, but do you think we take for granted how smart trees are? How would like do you think there's any sort of intelligence with trees or is it just their biological chemistry and makeup is just so well adapted over thousands of years that they just have this formula to keep growing and and keep doing their thing.

Speaker 2:

I think it's hard to put it. Think smart is a is a human term. Yeah. And I'm not sure if it applies to trees but like yeah, think you said it. You're hinting on it there that it's really that whether it's intelligence in the way that we think of intelligence is hard to say.

Speaker 2:

But it's more that redwood trees have a strategy and they have found a way to thrive in a fairly diverse set of circumstances And they found a way to thrive despite a huge number of stressors that would kill most other organisms. In fact, one of the places another thing that I didn't mention, so that we get these fairy rings growing out of a stump of a tree or around even our living tree because of these dormant buds. Well, way that that's advantageous that few trees can handle this. But one of the places that redwoods are in their most superlative or in their largest state is near rivers and very low down in the flood plain more or less of rivers. And what happens in those sometimes is that when there's a big flood, the bottom of the tree is underwater.

Speaker 2:

It's flooded. And because of the high waters, often sediment is deposited on the ground around the tree. And sometimes that sediment is a foot or two feet thick even sometimes. And for most trees that would smother the root system. They're not getting any air circulation so the trees usually die.

Speaker 2:

In the case of redwoods, what they do is from those dormant buds, they send out a new root system and they just grow a new set of roots in that newly deposited material where there's little competition because it's freshly laid there and they continue to grow. And so that's one of the few places where you'll see redwoods growing with very few, if any other tree species because the other trees have been killed by the the sediment that deposited on top of them.

Speaker 1:

That's incredible. You you mentioned it's smart as a human term but it's hard for me to wrap my brain around a tree that it just like you said, finding new ways to survive and live despite so many threats to it that are still happening today and yet as you just mentioned, they they fight against everything and they just figure out a way to to survive. How are how are they climate change heroes? I hear a lot about how Redwoods are climate change heroes. How is that?

Speaker 2:

Well, know it's it's interesting that you know the giant sequoias, their their cousin has gone through really we're kind of in a little bit of an really kind of an existential crisis there. Twenty percent of the big giant sequoias were killed in recent wildfires over the last five or ten years. That's really hard to wrap our heads around and how much of a threat wildfires and drought can be to those trees. And while those things are still a threat to the Redwood forest as well, The Coast Redwoods so far have been able to survive most of those threats and even thrive through them. Now we did just have the CZU fire down in Big Basin area of in the Santa Cruz area of the Redwood Range.

Speaker 2:

And that was a definite stating fire. Did an incredible amount of damage to a pristine old growth forest down there. But a lot of those trees are coming back and they're still alive. Now that ecosystem is going to be altered for centuries probably because of that fire. But at least the building blocks are there to restore that forest to some glory.

Speaker 2:

It may not be the same glory that was there before, but something similar enough that we will all grow to really appreciate it. And so another reason why the whole climate change is really complicated for Redwoods because I think it depends on where you are in their range to how they're doing. Certainly if you're on the southern end or the very eastern end of their range where it's very dry, this could be a big challenge for them because they're going to have a much harder time reproducing and making new Redwood trees. In the upper part of their range, like around where we are now, there's actually pretty good evidence that they've been growing faster recently because of the best theory that I've heard so far is that there's a little bit less fog which means more sun that's allowing them to grow a little faster. The danger is where is that tipping point?

Speaker 2:

Because like I said earlier, they're also relying on that fog to keep them moist and to keep the environment wet enough for them to thrive. So it can be a little bit drier than it has been and maybe that'll help because it's more sun. But at some point it's gonna be not enough and then they're going to start not being able to reproduce or they're going to start growing slower and become less healthy because of the lack of the moisture. So those are the kind of tipping points that we need to be on our radar that we need to be looking out for and figuring out what's going on.

Speaker 1:

You just mentioned some of the research that's conducted on these trees. How do you tell measurement measurements? What's the method be on how you get the size of a tree both its width and its height? And then how often do you check them and what other projects are ongoing with research to these? What are you studying?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So one of the big ones that we're trying to really take on is more looking at this landscape scale picture of how many trees are dying and how many have lived or how many new ones are growing and that kind of thing. And that really comes down to trying to put in long term monitoring plots where you go and revisit the same trees on some kind of regular cycle. And quite frankly, we're really still figuring that out right now. And we've due to recent meetings with myself and other researchers in the area, we're trying to raise the alarm a little bit that we're not, we don't have as many of those types of plots and we're not doing enough of that monitoring or as much as we should be doing.

Speaker 2:

When it comes to measuring volume and those things, it all depends on the level of detail you want to go to. But certainly some of the basic, just trying to figure out how much biomass is there, how much volume there. Or just how much volume is there is yes, so the diameter of the tree near the base, how quickly that diameter changes as you get up into the tree, how tall the tree is, and then how many branches there are, and where do those branches start. When we talk about fire threats and fire danger, how low down is the lowest branch or the lowest branches? If they're very low to the ground, are they providing ladder fuel so that a fire starting down low could work up into the canopy of a tree.

Speaker 2:

Those are the kind of things that we try to look at. How much is growing around the tree that could help add fuel to the fire and make a fire hot enough that it's likely to kill them. Historically, in most of the Redwood Range up here, we think that fire came through here once every ten or twenty years. Most of our Redwood forest now haven't seen a fire for one hundred or more years. So the environment within these Redwood forests, even our old growth forests has changed pretty significantly because of a lack of fire.

Speaker 2:

And so what does that mean for the longevity of this forest? How has that lack of fire changed things? What means it's a lot of vegetation, whether it be other trees or shrubs or forbs are growing that wouldn't be there if a fire had come through because that fire would have killed those things. When are we at a point where there's so much other vegetation that it's threatening the bigger trees there? That it's going to kind of vary from site to site depending again on things like moisture.

Speaker 2:

And of course more vegetation is a bigger stressor in drier environments than it is in moisture environments. But this is one place where I think our nation, our culture is undergoing a little bit of a paradigm shift in that we used to think of wilderness areas as these areas that are kind of pristine and don't touch, let nature kind of take its course. Right? And let it just do its own thing. And while that's a great concept and that I'm conceptually really supportive of in many ways, we also have a better understanding now is that's not the way wilderness traditionally worked.

Speaker 2:

And that Native Americans have been managing these lands for thousands of years, mostly using prescribed fire. So if we want to maintain this kind of natural state, this pristine wilderness, then there's some management that needs to happen in order to maintain that ecosystem. And so we really and unfortunately, I think that opens up a whole can of worms about what are we managing for and these kind of things. And I think for the most part, what we need to think about is managing for resilience and for some level of stability to support the diversity of ecosystems and the diversity of organisms that has existed in this area historically. But one of the big places we're going within Redwood National And State Parks is to think about how we can maintain these forests.

Speaker 2:

And so that they are resilient to the stressors that are likely to come, whether it be wildfire, drought, climate change. And probably a big part of that equation is going to be reintroducing fire on our terms so that we and the forest is ready for the wildfire that comes on that random day when no one's expecting it and it's gonna be probably the hottest driest day of the year. Like are the forests there ready to withstand that a fire under those conditions and how can we make it more resilient to fire under those conditions.

Speaker 1:

In addition to all of what you just mentioned, does it help the prescribed fires with fighting invasive species that come in to these parks and might be going against these trees like you had mentioned too? Does it help kind of reset the landscape, reopen the forest floor and allow for the natural plants to come back?

Speaker 2:

Well that's a great point actually because yeah one of the things the prescribed fire can be a big help in getting it back to a more sustainable state and something more like a historic state. But the exotic plant question is a really interesting one. And unfortunately it's kind of complicated because it depends on which exotic plants you're talking about. Some of them love fire and they come back after a fire with a vengeance. Others are killed by the fire.

Speaker 2:

So part of what my job in that circumstance is to have a good understanding of what is there beforehand. And if there is one of these exotic plants that thrive after fire, then we have to find a way to mitigate that. And it's probably means we have to have a workforce there ready to deal with the plant when it comes back either after the fire or maybe deal with it before the fire so it doesn't get a chance to take off as a result of the fire.

Speaker 1:

This may be a big question but how do you know which plants are invasive and and exotic and which ones should be here? Which ones are are naturally here? Is that just from historical evidence?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. But that's a really interesting question I guess because in the sense that there are I like kind of a broader, like the classic definition of an exotic plant is something that is not from this area. And so like if people bring in like English Holly, Holly is a pretty plant. We like the little red berries and the green leaves. But it's from Europe.

Speaker 2:

It's not from North America. Humans brought it here. So that's clearly an exotic plant, right? Okay. But what about a Douglas fir growing in a prairie?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's a prairie. Douglas firs or even a Redwood growing in a prairie, it's a grassland. A prairie is a grassland. So a tree in that environment is sort of an exotic plant by some definition. It shouldn't be there.

Speaker 2:

It's not really part of what an important component of that ecosystem. And it's growing there in most cases due to a lack of fire because a is really good at killing little baby seedlings that first try to get established. But once they're established they can sometimes thrive in that environment. Another example is how common is a species. So we're in this Redwood Forest here that we knew we know burned frequently because we're right next to this prairie.

Speaker 2:

Well, that tree right there is a hemlock. And that tree right there is a Sitka spruce. Both of those trees hate fire. A very low intensity fire generally kills them. So the only reason those two trees are here is because we haven't been burning that prairie and allowing that fire to creep into the forest here.

Speaker 2:

So is an exotic species? In some ways it kind of is. Or at the very least it should be a tree in this area that would be uncommon. Because you know a fire is not going to burn 100% of everything in here. It's going to be under most natural fires.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of a mosaic of burned and unburned. So if the patch doesn't burn and there's a spruce in there, the spruce can continue to live for some period of time until the next fire comes through. But in some of our old growth forests, we see a prolific amount of trees that just shouldn't be in some areas because of the fire regime that used to dominate that particular area. So these are questions we have to struggle with when we decide what are we managing for, how are we managing this land, what are our values, what are we what are we trying to get out of this land and what is our long term vision for it.

Speaker 1:

And if you're not doing a prescribed fire, do you do you have a team that goes out and maintenances the land with by pruning or anything like that just in case something were to come through?

Speaker 2:

So we do again, most of our work along that line really has to do with these old clear cuts, the second growth forest that will be thinning in order most cases thinning, in some places planting trees. But looking to shift the species composition and the tree density in order to allow the forest to thrive and the ecosystem to thrive. As far as old growth, we're not doing any active management outside of prescribed fire in them other than maybe along roads and other natural fire breaks. We may be doing some minor fuel reduction in order to make this a good break where we can stop a wildfire if one gets established.

Speaker 1:

You in a podcast cracked me up because you said you're a tree hugger but you also light trees on fire and you cut them down. You have this balance of of managing the forest. Do you ever do you ever think about that competing narrative? And I think you explained it like even though you're a tree hugger, you're you're helping the the old growth forest come back, right?

Speaker 2:

It is a weird thing to think about and it's something that the public has struggled with for a long time. And especially if you think back to when thinking back when this park was formed, When the government buys land from timber companies, sometimes timber companies that are voluntarily selling their land and sometimes when they were forced to sell their land to make the park. So part of the story there was, Okay, so we're saving this land from the chainsaw and from the timber companies so we can make a park. And then people like me come along and say, hey, you know what? We need to bring a chainsaw in here and kill some trees to make a healthy forest.

Speaker 2:

And it's a hard thing to wrestle with. Like, wait a minute. We just saved this forest from the chainsaw so you can bring a chainsaw in here? And unfortunately that's just kind of the state of the world when these forests are intensively managed. They, timber companies, they're not in a natural state anymore.

Speaker 2:

So the way I like to think of it is let's get this forest back into a natural state so it's in a condition that it can take cover itself more. And unfortunately that means you know in some cases too many trees are growing just like you know if you have a garden you may throw a bunch of seeds out there. Sometimes too many plants grow for you to make for the garden to stay healthy and you've got to thin your crop in order to get a healthy garden. It's the same with a forest. Sometimes you've got to thin the forest in order to make a healthy one.

Speaker 1:

So when you do the prescribed burns, how do these trees tolerate the burns that that you're doing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So like I was mentioning the the some species of trees around here like the citrus spruce and the western hemlock, even a very small low intensity fire is probably going to kill them. But it doesn't kill all trees and especially redwoods are one of the great survivors of fires. They resist fire in part because they have really thick bark that's a really good insulator. And it protects the live and of course, the bark is really just dead tissue.

Speaker 2:

But because it's such a good insulator, it keeps the heat away from the interior living part of the tree and allows it to withstand even the hottest, even pretty hot fires. The bark does burn. It can catch on fire. Ironically, it burns better than the bark of many trees and sometimes that fire will burn up the bark and get into the canopies of the trees and damage things up top. But again, it doesn't kill the tree.

Speaker 2:

Once the heat is gone from around the base of the tree, the bark is not able to sustain a fire. So the fire in the bark tends to go out pretty quickly and not damage the interior of the tree. And of course the other way that withstands fire is it sends up these basil sprouts and it's able to even if you were to manage to top kill a Redwood tree with fire, Not only will the stem of the tree likely sprout new branches, but the base of the tree will sprout new trees.

Speaker 1:

That's fascinating. We talked about why you make management decisions on the second growth forest and how an old growth forest is a healthy forest. Why? Why is the old growth forest healthy and the second growth forest is not healthy?

Speaker 2:

So in a second growth forest what it, you know, by definition almost, you know, it tends to be a clear cut that is either planted or aerial seeded or whatever. And so all the trees in that second growth forest are the same age. And with the same age is the same height. So all the trees are kind of competing with each other on equal footing. Which means that no trees are really thriving and all trees are just kind of hanging in there at best.

Speaker 2:

And some trees eventually, some of the trees that are not doing as well end up dying. They're not able to keep up and stay as tall. They become a little bit shorter. Then there's not as much light and resources available to keep them alive. So they die.

Speaker 2:

And then the forest kind of self thins, as they say, over time. But because they're all competing so heavily with each other, no trees are truly the winners and are truly dominating the site for a long time. So the whole stand often becomes unhealthy and the trees all become vulnerable to not only insects and disease but even wind. They're all tall and skinny trees because they're racing up to the light and they're not thick and broad so they're top heavy. And then they're all going to blow over in a windstorm, or they can.

Speaker 2:

So that's one of the dangers. In a Redwood forest or in an old growth forest, what you have is all these trees of all different sizes. Some trees are dominating the site and staying healthy and strong. Other trees are stuck down in the understory and not doing so well. Some of those like a Redwood tree is really good at hanging out in the understory and waiting for its moment.

Speaker 2:

And its moment is in one of these big trees next to it falls over or something happens to where all a sudden it's getting more sunlight. And now is its chance to grow and become a big tree. Other species that are hanging out in the understory, maybe they're there for a long time and waiting for that moment and if the moment doesn't come they may end up dying. So an individual tree in a forest dies, but that's also an opportunity for some of these other organisms that need dead trees for their life cycle somehow, such as the Pileated Woodpecker is going to use that snag to make a cavity, make a home, and then other critters will use their abandoned cavities to make a nest in future years. So losing some trees, having some healthy and some unhealthy trees in a forest can be a healthy part of a diverse ecosystem.

Speaker 2:

But in a second growth forest, you tend to have all trees that are kind of in the same state. And if they get overcrowded enough that they're all really competing heavily for each other then they're all unhealthy and nobody's winning.

Speaker 1:

And if all the trees are the same height and the canopy's blocked I assume that affects the biodiversity of the the plant floor as well?

Speaker 2:

In fact, there's often in the second growth forest, there's almost nothing growing in the understory because of a lack of light and because of that uniform canopy above above them. That's right.

Speaker 1:

Does the redwood tree make a good nursery log once it does fall?

Speaker 2:

It does. It does. Yes. In fact, you'll often see yeah. Especially the spruce and the hemlock and some other trees really like growing on dead wood and even some of the understory shrubs like huckleberries do real well.

Speaker 2:

And you know about that nurse log concept then they're really good. The wood is really good at storing moisture So some seedlings really if they really need that wet environment, they sometimes do better growing on a log than they do growing on the forest floor in the early years because of that moisture reserve that's there.

Speaker 1:

That's so cool. So we talked a lot about the Redwoods which is amazing and that's why we're sitting here together. They're biological and ecological superheroes but they also have a lot of cultural significance to this area as you mentioned to people who have been here since time immemorial. But personally, what do they mean to you? I mean you're out here fighting for them and you have been out here fighting for them for twenty years and in various ways even though you're a tree hugger burning other ones down, cutting some down because you want to protect protect them for the long long haul just as you say that they're here for the long haul.

Speaker 1:

So what do they mean to you when you're out here doing the work to protect them and to give them a healthy forest? How do you I guess spend time with the trees and then what do you find so peaceful about being out here? Well, think like a lot of

Speaker 2:

people I really find solace in in the quiet and the the peaceful environment of a Redwood forest. And I really enjoy just getting out of the rat race, if you will, or the busyness that is part of so many of our lives on a day to day basis. That getting away from that and having a time to reflect and ponder is really restorative for me. But I also enjoy when seeing something that lives many times as long as I've lived or ever will live, thinking about the long history of what is this tree or this ecosystem experienced and been through. What was it here for?

Speaker 2:

What events happened around it that it's able to live through is very inspiring as well. And I also like going through a forest and thinking about what signs of the past can we see. Like for instance, with this tree we show you all this black on the the bowl of the tree, signs of fire that have come here in the past. Other places you may see, there's a lot of Redwood forests if you go around the park. You'll see many trees that are big five, six, seven feet in diameter around you and then you see this one tree that's maybe 15 or 20 feet in diameter.

Speaker 2:

And it's the only tree anywhere near that big. And just trying to think about what happened here. Why is that one tree so much bigger than all the other trees around here? Is this a sign of some great fire or other disturbance from long ago and this is the sole survivor of some past event. It's interesting because like I was saying that in most cases in the Redwood Forest fires were returning every ten or twenty years but there's other circumstances where we have solid evidence that there was a really big fire, very hot, maybe three hundred years ago that seems to have killed most of the redwood trees in the area.

Speaker 2:

And this forest we're seeing around us is what grew up after that big event. So trying to think about all of those things that may or may may have happened to this forest in the past and piecing together all those pieces is kind of a fun puzzle to try to speculate about and and figure out the long game of what's going on in this area.

Speaker 1:

I agree. That's great context for people that come here and see these trees to what you were just describing is directly behind you. There is a massive trunk that I've been staring at throughout this episode that stands out in this forest which is which is really cool and I think that's a cool perspective to take with you when you hike around these forests and you're looking at these trees or you see potential burn marks to think about what that tree has seen, and we'll see way past us which is because of your work and because of a lot of the projects and partners that are you know working together at these parks and in this region of the world which is which is really cool. But before I let you go, wanna give you a chance to say anything else whether that's encouragement for people to come see these trees or anything else that's on your mind regarding these redwoods that you want to share.

Speaker 2:

Well, I would encourage people to come and see the redwoods. I think it is a should certainly be on people's bucket list as something that you don't want to miss out on. I do also ask you that when you come just to respect the rules of the park and stay on trails. The trails are there to take you to see the superlative trees and look for the best. And try not to get down the rabbit hole of the trophy hunters that are looking for something like the tallest trees.

Speaker 2:

Because you know when they're over 300 feet tall, you're not going to notice that extra five or 10 feet at the top. You're not going to be able to tell that that one is taller than that one because they're all magnificent and there's plenty of places to see amazing trees in in in our forest. So respect the land, try to leave it the way you found it I guess is would be my advice.

Speaker 1:

I think that's the perfect way to end this. Thanks so much for your time.

Speaker 2:

Now, but before we go Yes. We need to look at this tree.

Speaker 1:

We do.

Speaker 2:

So can we like take a camera in and just Yes. Take a peek. Let me just show you what this looks like from the inside. Okay. Well, said three or four.

Speaker 2:

I think you could fit six or eight people in here. So this is, yeah, the big tree here. And you see that the walls are all black from the many, many burns. And look at that. It's like a giant straw.

Speaker 2:

It's completely hollowed out. And it looks from this angle like that's the top of the tree where that hole is at the top. But the tree actually continues to go on for at least, I'd say about another 100 feet up with a giant crown that's, again, this tree looks so weakened and damaged down here and unhealthy. But you look up there and it's zooming along, growing great. It's happy.

Speaker 2:

It's doing its thing. And how many trees could survive when you see probably 80% of the trunk is gone? But here we are seeing how resilient they can be. And on this side, you see this piece here that you're looking at now. This part of the tree is dead.

Speaker 2:

In fact, this was probably a tree, it was probably the same tree and this one was a sprout that came off of it. And something killed this tree over the years. But this sprout is able to, was able to survive it. And if you look at the size of this tree, don't know how, you know, it's probably at least a thousand years old, right? Just this one piece.

Speaker 2:

Who knows how old this piece is over here. Yeah, now that you've had the grand tour, hope you enjoyed this episode and stay tuned for the next one.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for checking out this edition of the Safe Travels podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. That conversation with Lathrop was fascinating. He is so incredible and his knowledge for the Redwood tree and this beautiful area is amazing. So if you like this type of content, it would mean a lot to me if you liked, commented, and subscribed.

Speaker 1:

And until next time, safe travels.