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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Sonia: Joining us today is John Costas and John is a [00:01:00] prominent advocate for addiction recovery with a leading voice in psychedelic assisted therapy and that John's journey from struggling with alcoholism to supporting Righty with the aid of psychedelic therapy is powerful and enlightening.
[00:01:14] Sonia: His work has been instrumental in reshaping how we view and approach recovery, offering new hope to so many people. His path to recovery is really a testament to his resilience and determination after battling alcohol use disorder. He found a new lease on life. through psychedelic assisted therapy, which is an innovative approach that's garnered significant attention and support recently.
[00:01:38] Sonia: But his story doesn't stop there. With a background as a journalist, he's used his skills to shed light on the complexities of addiction and the potential of alternative treatments. His passionate advocacy has inspired so many to seek help and explore new avenues in their recovery journeys. So in today's episode, we will explore John's personal journey.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Sonia: his foundation, the Apollo pact and how their work is changing the landscape of addiction treatment. So grab your favorite non alcoholic beverage, get comfortable and join us for a conversation with John. This is an episode you don't want to miss. Hi John. How are you doing today?
[00:02:18] Jon Kostas: Great. How are you, Sonia? Thanks for having me.
[00:02:21] Sonia: I'm pretty good. I had bacterial laryngitis and today is the first day I can talk.
[00:02:27] Jon Kostas: Oh, man. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. Happy that you're, recovering. Are you drinking a lot of hot tea or,
[00:02:35] Sonia: a lot of hot tea. Yeah.
[00:02:37] Jon Kostas: that'll that works wonders.
[00:02:39] Sonia: Yeah, so John, can you start us off just by sharing a little bit about your early life and what led you to begin your recovery journey?
[00:02:49] Jon Kostas: Yeah, absolutely. so I grew up in New York city. I was talking to my wife last night it, it almost went from believing in Santa [00:03:00] to, going to bars and drinking. I mean, there really wasn't an in between, it wasn't that drastic, but close.
[00:03:09] Jon Kostas: Um, I, I had a great childhood. My parents, my older sister were really positively involved in my life. everything was great. So I don't know what led me to drink so much other than the fact that I just, I loved how alcohol made me feel. And I just loved that feeling. And I just, I remembered thinking, About, all these adults out there as a kid and just thinking, why, why don't they drink all, day around?
[00:03:47] Jon Kostas: And why are they just drinking after work? Or why are they just drinking on weekends? I would be doing this all the time if I could, and I tried, I would bring, you know, alcohol [00:04:00] into, my classes into a water bottle and, and drink during those to kind of get through the day. And.
[00:04:11] Jon Kostas: Luckily for me, I had great doctors growing up and I guess it was my pediatrician who said, why don't you go to an AA meeting and see if any of that resonates with you? It wasn't, he wasn't playing good cop, bad cop or using scare tactics, but kind of, you know, I think that approach was good because it opened me up into.
[00:04:38] Jon Kostas: you could kind of peek through to see, okay, let's see how this road, ends and let's see what could be next if I keep, uh, going down this path. And so it was very eye opening.at that point [00:05:00] thought about your stereotypical
[00:05:03] Jon Kostas: person who, who is addicted to drugs and I didn't really see substance use disorders as something that affected everyone, um, and could have and didn't discriminate and they, you know, that, that is, uh, like any disease or disorder.
[00:05:24] Jon Kostas: it really, It affects everyone. It can affect everyone. And it's, a scary thought. You don't know if, uh, you'll be susceptible to it or not. So, once I realized, okay, there are, people that are like me, or like my parents, or my, you know, teachers, This is a serious illness.
[00:05:46] Jon Kostas: It wasn't just, your average, uh, or stereotypical, alcoholic, uh, that, that represented these groups [00:06:00] in, in the AA meetings I went to.
[00:06:02] Sonia: So when you went to the AA meetings, did you feel like, oh, that's not me or that's not me yet?
[00:06:10] Jon Kostas: No, I sorry, I rambled there a bit, but that it really resonated and pretty early on. So I was 16 when I went to my 1st day meeting and I went with my dad and my dad that wasnot an alcoholic. He, Just he wanted to go with me and, you know, and that was both of our first meetings and, um, and then one guy came up and he did the person didn't know if my dad was, you know, why were there?
[00:06:42] Jon Kostas: I was, but figured it was probably me. I don't think, many people. Bring kids to, I know there are open meetings, but yeah, anyway, um, and they said there are some meetings for younger kids or younger people under 21 or, [00:07:00] you know, teenagers. So, I looked at some of those, but I like the older ones. I thought I thought I could learn more from their mistakes that that I wouldn't have to repeat.
[00:07:13] Jon Kostas: So I, I really, I think I learned more from the older ones. Um, they just tended for me to a little more, suitable advice and guidance. but I, I realized at a very early age that I did not have a normal relationship with alcohol and I probably, wouldn't be able to live a life I wanted if I continued to drink.
[00:07:37] Jon Kostas: So it would be either have a life I wanted or strive towards or keep drinking and I'm not going to have any of that
[00:07:49] Sonia: And so that's, you're 16, you go to your first A meeting, and then you keep drinking? Yeah.
[00:07:56] Jon Kostas: keep drinking and I would go on and off. So I, [00:08:00] I mean, I, I remember going into this psilocybin, um, assisted therapy clinical trial and we had to, uh, the doctor for, for their data, because I think for the most part, the study participants in the clinical trial I was in were, um, We were treatment resistant, most of us, uh, so we had tried everything and right.
[00:08:29] Jon Kostas: Nothing worked. And I think, and we had to quantify how many meetings we went to. I, it was in the hundreds, because I did the 90 and 90 a couple of times. So that right off the bat, um, and I,and that was completing it, but I definitely, um, you know, started the 90 and 90. A lot more than that. I'm just not not completing it.
[00:08:59] Jon Kostas: [00:09:00] and so I, I mean, yeah, and I was 25 when I entered the clinical trial. So that was almost a decade of a meetings, rehab meetings with, Doctors, psychiatrists, substance use, addiction specialists. I mean, you name it. And, and you live in New York, you, you were in New York for a bit. So, you know, there, there's no shortage of doctors and specialists here for, for that.
[00:09:33] Jon Kostas: and I, I kept failing at it. I kept, you know, it was, and I really, this was all. I wanted to go to all of this. I wanted to, I checked myself into rehab at 20, 20 or 21. And I mean, all of this stuff, I went eager. I was eager to go and I went willingly. It wasn't, this wasn't forced by, it wasn't [00:10:00] court ordered.
[00:10:00] Jon Kostas: It wasn't, my parents didn't make me do anything. I didn't want to do, they were supportive, thank God. so that's when I was, that's when I had a rude awakening and I was very, fearful of the future. What, what that had in store for me, because I truly wanted to stop drinking.
[00:10:20] Jon Kostas: I had access to the best resources here, the best doctors and, protocols and, and nothing worked for me. So I was, I mean, that, that was a, uh, that was a scary time
[00:10:35] Sonia: And were you thinking of, during that time you're trying all these things, are you really thinking like, I have a disease? Is that the model you're going with? I have a disease and I need to find a treatment for this disease?
[00:10:47] Jon Kostas: a bit. I mean, Probably. And that was, you know, the doctors that I would see and I trusted them. They would categorize this as a disease. I'd [00:11:00] agree with them. Um, and then I heard somewhere, this is the only disease that, that your loved ones blame you for having.
[00:11:08] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:11:09] Jon Kostas: and I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting.
[00:11:12] Jon Kostas: And. Uh, I mean, whatever you categorize it as, I just knew I needed to figure it out and, and find a way to, stop and address, this issue. Um, so I did see it as a disease, but I was just dead set on. I'm in. I gotta, I'm either going to find a way to stop drinking or, or die trying and die drinking.
[00:11:42] Jon Kostas: And that's how it's going to end.
[00:11:44] Sonia: It's so interesting because I think a lot of us, me included. justify our drinking, right? And make excuses and say, well, I'm not that guy. and I did it for a while. My brother is an alcoholic and I thought, well, I'm not that bad, but you really knew for a long time that it [00:12:00] was a problem.
[00:12:02] Jon Kostas: I knew, but I still justified it and because the guilt would be so, I mean, I think those would, I call them the moral hangovers and that I heard the term anxiety. but the, the moral hangovers I had and I wouldn't do anything bad, um, the night before I just felt so guilty. Uh, for drinking because I knew I should not be drinking but I justified it because I was young.
[00:12:32] Jon Kostas: I was single. I I had a job. I was doing well at work. I was. You know, I, I mean, I, I wasn't, you know, no criminal activities. So
[00:12:43] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:12:44] Jon Kostas: what, why can't I enjoy life at a young age as, a guy in, in New York City? I mean, it's just, millions of other people. People are going out and having fun. Why can't I?
[00:12:59] Jon Kostas: [00:13:00] So that's how I would justify it. And I would always say I'll get sober when I'm in my thirties or, forties. And when, when I actually have a family that is relying on me and I'm an adult. Um, so that's how I justified it. And, and that's also why the, the psilocybin, treatment. you know, I, I think it gave me, I, it definitely gave me a different perspective, but my alcoholism went from being a subjective kind of where I wrote the narrative myself to how the psilocybin treatment worked was it gave me an objective view of just flat what this was, what I was doing to my, loved ones.
[00:13:50] Jon Kostas: Um, by. You know, having them live through all of this with sober eyes and watch [00:14:00] this, almost like a car crash in slow motion and they can't do anything. Um, so once I realized that, because I never, I thought the only person I was hurting was myself, and I thought, everyone else was selfish because they wanted me to.
[00:14:15] Jon Kostas: They wanted to, you know, encroach my own life and, and tell me how to live and what to do and all of this, even though I did want to stop drinking, I wanted to do it on my own terms and when I couldn't, I, it was frustrating. I was angry. I was. And I didn't want, people telling me how to live my life, because I was working on it and it was frustrating because you're doing something and you're failing and, um, at least that's how I looked at it incorrectly, I think.
[00:14:49] Jon Kostas: I mean, so I don't want anyone getting discouraged and thinking that you're failing by trying and trying and trying, you know, going towards something. because I do think a lot [00:15:00] of those failed attempts helped me get to where I am. Uh, so, it was just a frustrating time, but this, this was the first time being in this clinical trial.
[00:15:15] Jon Kostas: Uh, it, it, it really helped me see an objective view of, of my surroundings and what this is doing to my family, what this is doing, to my, to myself and my life and, um, how I could be getting so much more out of life if I just gave up this one thing.
[00:15:37] Sonia: [00:16:00] Were you hesitant at all to enter the study for the psilocybin? and what, convinced you to go ahead and do it?
[00:16:14] Jon Kostas: Yeah, I, I mean, definitely scared because I never experimented with psychedelics just out of pure fear and, and I still have a fear of psychedelics. So I've only done psychedelics in this clinical trial. So I don't have any, experience outside of it. I've never done mushrooms either because in the clinical trial they used synthetic psilocybin that, it, you know, it's a lot more precise, for these clinical trials.
[00:16:51] Jon Kostas: So I was always afraid of psilocybin, but at that point I was. right? 24 25. [00:17:00] I already tried everything I heard of. I had access to. I mean, nothing worked and multiple times and nothing worked for me. So, this they were getting ready to do this trial. so I was the first person to do this You know, to, to do psilocybin assisted therapy for alcoholism, alcohol use disorder.
[00:17:28] Jon Kostas: so I didn't, I didn't hear from any other study participants of how, what they went through and how this was like. So, The only resources I really had were the researchers, which were great. And I, I think that, that was good enough for me. and they had told me that this, a lot of this research had started back in the, I think, thirties, forties, fifties, even sixties with, uh, LSD to treat alcoholism.
[00:17:59] Jon Kostas: [00:18:00] and. you know, and I, I think that even, um, RFK Jr's, Bobby Kennedy's wife, I think it's Ethel, I think she, before these became scheduled compounds, she might have been treated with this for alcoholism. I could be wrong, but it, like a lot, like, Cary Grant to see a, you know, he had a therapist in, Beverly Hills, um, That would administer LSD and Bill Wilson from a, a 1 of the co founders, uh, wanted to incorporate this into the steps.
[00:18:45] Jon Kostas: And, so there was a lot of promising research that was going on, which then led to the government to, to, um. Study this as well and, then you get the Charles [00:19:00] Manson, murders and, and all of that and the cult and that they were using LSD there. So, a lot of, you know, mixed baggage, they're definitely promising research, but then, you know, what's the other side of this?
[00:19:13] Jon Kostas: So these are powerful compounds. Let's see what this is.
[00:19:19] Sonia: And they were making no distinction between a micro dose and a macro dose at that point. And
[00:19:26] Jon Kostas: point, and even it at, you know, at this point, I think most of the trials, if not all of the published. clinical trials have been macro doses. So I, what they gave me in, in the clinical trial, I think, was about double a, a recreational dose. And sometimes they give more than that. I think they gave me 20 milligrams, 25 milligrams of synthetic [00:20:00] psilocybin.
[00:20:01] Jon Kostas: , and that's a lot. I don't know what that is. And because I think with the recreational with mushrooms, it's in grams and it's so it's totally different. So don't do 25 milligrams of, of actual mushrooms because I think that's a lot more, for anyone listening and, and obviously don't do this outside of a clinical trial or a clinical setting, because they're powerful compounds and.
[00:20:34] Jon Kostas: they are, I think, starting to do, because somehow microdosing is, is getting a lot of attention and, uh, hype. So, I think there are some clinical trials that they're recruiting for, starting to do, and you can always go to clinicaltrials. gov to see what's out there, and that's for every clinical trial, not just psychedelics.
[00:20:59] Sonia: so if [00:21:00] people are thinking about it, what can they expect? what was the preparation like for your first session? What was the setup? Yeah.
[00:21:09] Jon Kostas: I had two doctors there, an MD psychiatrist and then a PhD psychologist, which later got, I think it was a, a social licensed social worker also that, um, filled in for the psychologist, but always the MD psychiatrist was there. so it was 3 psilocybin sessions over the course of maybe a year.
[00:21:38] Jon Kostas: Um, and the leading, so you go in. They, you know, there, there's a screening. They want to make sure that there's no family history of psychosis or schizophrenia or I think even, bipolar disorder, even though they're, I think at Johns Hopkins, they're studying [00:22:00] this for bipolar now.
[00:22:01] Jon Kostas: that'sSomething that disqualified patients from entering a clinical trial. Now they're seeing if this actually works for those same patients. So it's an intensive screening process. They want to make sure that you're mentally and, physically fit to go through this and then I'm pretty sure I just started through with the psychotherapy.
[00:22:26] Jon Kostas: So it wasn't any different than. Any, psychiatrist I had gone to before of you show up for an hour a week and except this time it was two doctors to one patient. so about a month in after four or five, um, hour long weekly psychotherapy sessions, which did include some preparation. So some of that was if something comes up, there's a good [00:23:00] possibility that it came up for a reason, or don't try to, fight anything, or if something's scary, kind of just see it through, and, and I'm happy they told me all of that, to kind of just see what, you know, it's like watching a movie, um, just let it, let it play out for you.
[00:23:20] Jon Kostas: and so you go in the, the first psilocybin session. They, I think they drug tested me to make sure that there was nothing in my system. They asked me not to drink. I think it was 11 days prior it. So*,* I, I looked at that date and I circled it and then I counted backwards 11 days, which coincidentally landed on my sister's birthday.
[00:23:47] Jon Kostas: And. So I blew off her birthday and drank by myself because I thought this would be the last Time I drink, if this actually works, I might as well, [00:24:00] really leave everything on, on the field, as they say. Um, and so I did that. And then I went to the clinical trial 11 days later and the intention, they wanted me to set an intention for what I wanted to get out of this session.
[00:24:18] Jon Kostas: And for me, for me, I knew I was there because of my drinking, obviously, but some reason, I thought it was something deeper down that was driving me to drink, but I just didn't know what it was because I had a great childhood. Nothing really bad ever happened to me. I didn't have PTSD. I didn't have, you know, I wasn't, depressed or anything.
[00:24:43] Jon Kostas: I, I didn't know what, what was driving me to drink. And so I said, I just, and I was miserable when I was drinking. I was miserable when I wasn't drinking and I was just thinking about drinking. And [00:25:00] so I just said, I need to find an inner peace and calm down. And, I feel like if I'm just, internally calm, I'm not going to need a drink.
[00:25:10] Jon Kostas: And so I did that and I took the pill and about 30, 40 minutes later, I put an eye mask on and headphones with like classical music and you lie down on the couch and the doctors are there monitoring you. And, The drug, started to kick in. I started to see kaleidoscopic images and, um, and then, and it was a double blind.
[00:25:41] Jon Kostas: So there was a placebo group too. And I was just praying that I got the real thing. Obviously, once I realized I got the real thing. I was so happy that I got it. I'm like, okay, I can actually, see if this, this could work then. But [00:26:00] as soon as, you know, that happiness entered my, my mind, uh, it was, it went away just as fast, just because I realized there's someone else in this study that did not get the psilocybin because I received it.
[00:26:19] Jon Kostas: So I, I felt like I was taking that. from another study participant. And at that point, I said, if this thing works for me, I'm going to do everything I can to try to make this accessible. And because I knew going into it, I knew about this being, I, and I learned from the doctors, obviously. But at the time of the first dosing session, I realized, okay, this is real.
[00:26:47] Jon Kostas: This was 10 years ago, and this was a phase two, and it's still not FDA approved. so I knew how much. work ahead there would be and maybe I could be helpful [00:27:00] in, getting that across the finish line or, or helping with that somehow. So, um, and to put it into perspective, that was October, 2015, and I've not had a drink.
[00:27:17] Jon Kostas: I've not craved a drink. I've not, and I haven't gotten any meetings or, I mean, I don't like it. It almost works like an antibiotic for me that I went in with. You know, a disease did this therapy and then left and I haven't lived with this therapy set or lived with this disease sense and I haven't done any therapy to upkeep it or I just see a doctor once a year for an annual checkup.
[00:27:50] Jon Kostas: Um, so that's how well this worked for me. And. Um, and this was almost [00:28:00] 10 years ago. So, you know, during that 1st session, I saw a liquor bottle in the middle of the desert. And then all of a sudden it disintegrated into the sand. And I thought that was pretty cool. You know, obvious symbolism of my disease and my alcoholism leaving me and, I think the 2nd session I had a death experience, but weirdly enough, it was the most peaceful part of any of the, you know, experiences I had during any of the 3 sessions. So after, you know, right after I felt that death experience and how it wasn't so bad and it was actually kind of peaceful, there was a clinical trial at NYU right before mine and it was with, uh, anxiety and in [00:29:00] terminal cancer patients. And I just remember thinking, oh, my God, I hope all those patients got to experience this because it was.
[00:29:11] Jon Kostas: very peaceful and, you know, facing death in that way. It's, it's as scary now. I don't go out and play in traffic and I'm not, you know, cliff diving and all of that. I'm still afraid. I have a healthy fear of death, but, this. Existential thought of just, you know, oh, man, death.
[00:29:34] Jon Kostas: what happens to all that stuff? it's not as scary. Maybe the philosophical questions aren't as scary.
[00:29:43] Sonia: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more, um, about you mentioned about the FDA approval and access and
[00:29:52] Jon Kostas: So
[00:29:53] Sonia: to just before we get into it. So I know people are probably thinking they've seen like, mind bloom and field trip [00:30:00] health and how Is what you're talking about? Different than those services
[00:30:09] Jon Kostas: those services are ketamine. So it's a different drug. so I, the clinical trial I was in, it was psilocybin. It's one of the compounds in, hallucinogenic psycho active mushrooms, aka magic mushrooms. so, they're different. I think ketamine's an anesthetic. Um, and the, and psilocybin is, um, a psychedelic or classical psychedelic or hallucinogen.
[00:30:41] Jon Kostas: And at high doses, the doctor that treated me in, in the clinical trial, he, Had this great, explanation of it. Uh, so some of these drugs or obviously have potential for abuse. [00:31:00] Psilocybin, LSD, the classical psychedelics have a much lower potential for abuse. so after leaving this clinical trial, I had no interest and I still don't have any interest.
[00:31:11] Jon Kostas: In doing psychedelics. I'm not, I'm not out on the street looking for them. and that's because You know, at high doses, it's not all fun and games. Sure, there are some enjoyable parts of it, but a lot of it's pretty tough, and even if it's some of it that's tough, it's not worth it having, 90 percent bliss and then 10%, you know, haunted house stuff going on.
[00:31:43] Jon Kostas: I'm thankful I, I got to experience it. Um, and it saved my life, but I have no interest in doing it again because it's not needed. So he explained it in a way that a lot of people that, you know, the, the drugs of choice that [00:32:00] people are addicted to and use are compounds and drugs that escape reality.
[00:32:08] Jon Kostas: So whether it's drinking or opiates or whatever it is, it helps us temporarily escape reality and what our world is right now. Whereas a lot of these psychedelics at high doses like psilocybin, a lot of the time they bring our realities to the surface. And our thoughts and, what's in our conscious and subconscious and what's bothering us or what's on our minds, they bring that up to the surface and make us address what's going on.
[00:32:43] Jon Kostas: And that's why I think it's at least for me, it was so therapeutically beneficial of and, and earlier when we were talking about, you know, subjective and kind of justifying our drinking. This helped me see [00:33:00] my drinking just, exactly for what it was, what it was doing to my loved ones, what it was doing to me, and I just felt awful about it and I didn't want to put anyone through that.
[00:33:10] Jon Kostas: And so that's the difference. And really, there's no. legal, you know, way right now, the only legal, um, way to get this treatment is, is similar to what I did in one of these clinical trials. And that's why, Clinical trials dot gov is a great resource where you could go to our website or email us at hello at Apollo packed P.
[00:33:40] Jon Kostas: A. C. T. dot org. and we'll help you find a clinical trial if there are any around, but that's really, the only way there's some states that are. legalizing this for like an adult wellness model, but I don't think they're doctors that are administering that. And, and these, [00:34:00] these are, they're powerful compounds.
[00:34:02] Jon Kostas: So I don't want to, scare anyone, but I, I think, there should be screenings for the patient and you should have properly trained medical doctors or licensed medical professionals administering this and all that. Um, so hopefully, psilocybin could get approved in the next You know, a couple of years, there are a few companies that that are an organizations that are going through the process right now that are, think, at or near phase 3 and, and that's the last phase for a lot of these trials.
[00:35:09] Jon Kostas: so hopefully in, in the next, you know, 2 years, this could be FDA approved And also that, the whole thing of going through the FDA and then go kind of following the, the other side of it, following the state initiatives and the marijuana ballot initiatives, um, you know, FDA is, it'll take longer, but you'll have doctors that are able to prescribe it. know, hopefully insurance covers this. that's how you really make this, uh, accessible and affordable. Um, so FDA is [00:36:00] hopefully in the next. I don't know, maybe two, three years. so we'll, we'll see.
[00:36:07] Sonia: And John, what's the mission of your foundation, the Apollo pact? So given that hopefully the FDA is going to approve this in a couple of years for treatment, What are you guys doing?
[00:36:20] Jon Kostas: So we, and, and this went all the way back to when I was still in the clinical trial and, and shortly after of, I asked the doctors, okay, what, what can I, what do you guys need help with? How can I help? Funding was an issue. There was, there's at the time really no federal funding for schedule one research.
[00:36:46] Jon Kostas: So many of these issues boil down to the federal government or the, you know, just, just the stigma about [00:37:00] psychedelics and a lot of which were just false. Um, so when I went into the trial, I was concerned that I would. get addicted to psychedelics? Would my personality change? I mean, I thought it was similar, you know, it could be similar to going in for a lobotomy almost of, am I just going to kind of walk around and not really feel anything?
[00:37:28] Jon Kostas: Yeah, I wouldn't want to drink, but I don't have any other emotions. Um, And so the, and the doctors assured me, no, you're, you know, no family history of psychosis, this, that you're, you're fine. Um, there, there might be scary times when you're under the influence of psilocybin, but that'll pass.
[00:37:52] Jon Kostas: And once the, drugs wear off and all that, and you'll be here and someone will pick you up. I was, you know, a journalist [00:38:00] at the time. I was media trained. I would give interviews. To publications and they would use an alias for me and keep me anonymous. Like Michael Pollan wrote a book, how to change your mind and he interviewed me for that, but didn't use my name, a real name.
[00:38:16] Jon Kostas: And, but then 60 minutes called and they wanted to do a story. And, I. told them, listen, you guys got to find someone to do this. And if you can't find a patient, you know, I'll, I'll do it. And, um, so I ended up doing that. And after I went public with it, I ended up linking up with, just coincidentally, um, my mother in law's a former member of Congress.
[00:38:47] Jon Kostas: She's been very helpful in, in, Getting a lot of support from her former colleagues and, um, friends on the Hill. So that's our [00:39:00] mission in advancing this research, because a lot of this research is so, I mean, we lost a generation of researchers really, and research, um, from the Controlled Substances Act.
[00:39:15] Jon Kostas: so it's, it's nice kind of coming around full circle and seeing Congress being so supportive. Of this research when right, uh, in the, what 70 early 70s, they passed a bill that. I don't think they wanted that was an intent of theirs, uh, but one of the byproducts of of this bill, it was kind of collateral damage of the research, um, really stopped into schedule one drugs.
[00:39:49] Jon Kostas: So we saw that we could be useful and helpful in advancing this research, whether it was through education, [00:40:00] advocacy, Kind of dispelling myths around it and, also leading to federal funding and getting the federal government to start supporting this because they're, they're looking at, a lot of this stuff for PTSD, depression, anxiety, uh, substance use disorders.
[00:40:22] Jon Kostas: So whether it's nicotine addiction and cigarettes or tobacco or, um, alcoholism or. I think they're looking at it for opiates now and, methamphetamine use disorder. So, I mean, it's really eating disorders, OCD, so Alzheimer's research. It's like the federal government really needs to get involved here and be, Supportive of this.
[00:40:49] Jon Kostas: So, you know, both in a regulatory sense and a funding sense as well, because there's there's a lot of research out there that needs to [00:41:00] be conducted. so that, you know, that's what we're working on.
[00:41:04] Sonia: What are some of the biggest challenges talking about the federal government? What is the argument against psilocybin?
[00:41:13] Jon Kostas: Great question. The. The main argument against it is, they don't want to see this ending up like marijuana, where a lot of these initiatives started for medical marijuana, and you get, a lot of these same advocates that advocated for medical marijuana, they're coming back and advocating for medical psychedelics, and these lawmakers are saying, hold on, wait a minute, You're saying this can only be done, you're advocating for research, or you're advocating for this to be done with a doctor and, in a clinical setting and all that, but.
[00:41:55] Jon Kostas: Now, people are buying marijuana at, you know, every street corner [00:42:00] and it's legal in almost all 50 states, but I mean, health insurance doesn't really cover it. And so it's more of a recreational thing. So that's their concern. and rightfully so, I mean, they don't want to see this as a Trojan horse. I'd be, these are powerful compounds.
[00:42:21] Jon Kostas: I can't say that Any louder and more clearly, and so that's, that's their concern. And I think that's why we're so effective. Um, is because we're not your typical psychedelic advocates. We weren't advocating for medical marijuana or marijuana at all. And we're just going there. Hey, this.
[00:42:43] Jon Kostas: This research looks very promising. It saved my life. Here are other researchers and patients and participants and scientists that you should also talk to. And all of them want this to be done in a safe, safe way. [00:43:00] Responsible manner with rigor. and so that's credible. So, so that's our approach. Um, and we have no interest in making this recreational or advocating for that just because I'm not against drugs or anything.
[00:43:16] Jon Kostas: It's just not my fight. And this, this is a viable, legitimate. Medical, uh, intervention and treatment. At least it was for me. And I, I don't think I'm special in that way. And I think this could save a lot more people.
[00:43:32] Sonia: Yeah, I agree, I think I, that is really interesting point that people think it's just like a step away from legalizing it for recreational use like marijuana.
[00:43:42] Jon Kostas: Yeah,
[00:43:44] Sonia: Yeah. So from starting at 16 going to AA meetings to ending with psilocybin, how has your, your understanding or your approach to recovery changed over the last couple of decades?_ _
[00:43:59] Jon Kostas: [00:44:00] _you know, that's a great question. I don't think I've been asked that before_. so it gave me a better understanding of. the human aspect of, of this and forgiveness and patience, which I'm, I'm still trying to practice every day, um, and get better at, but, said earlier, it really doesn't discriminate anyone. Anyone can get this and everyone is affected whether it's you personally or a loved one or a colleague.
[00:44:34] Jon Kostas: so from the psilocybin to now and from 16 to the psilocybin and I mean, really, We, we need to do better as a country, as, a world of new approaches and new methods that, that will work for the [00:45:00] vast majority of patients and not the other way around of leaving the vast majority.
[00:45:05] Jon Kostas: Of patients being quote unquote treatment resistant and, you know, almost patient blaming at that point and something, something is wrong with the patient rather than something is wrong with our approach and, the tools and the different treatments that we have currently, So I think that's probably the biggest thing that I've learned where I always thought it was that I was the problem.
[00:45:35] Jon Kostas: I'm treatment resistant. Nothing's working for me. I must be lazy. I must not want it as much. and what I learned, later on in life and after going through all this and, and being in this field for, for some years now is a lot of the patients, if not most of them.
[00:45:57] Jon Kostas: you know, categorized as [00:46:00] treatment resistant. Um, so what, what does that tell us about these interventions and these, you know, our, our current system? And it's, it's not great. And if I had a kid that were dealing, with something like substance use, I'd, I'd be really scared, um, right now.
[00:46:23] Jon Kostas: And hopefully that'll change soon and, and we'll have better options for people.
[00:46:31] Sonia: Yeah, I have a question I just, I should have asked earlier, but how do you feel about naltrexone, which is like another compound, right? That's been around for a while, acts through a totally different mechanism than psychedelics, but how do you feel about the use of naltrexone?
[00:46:48] Jon Kostas: is that the one that curbs your cravings?
[00:46:51] Sonia: Curbs your cravings.
[00:46:52] Sonia:
[00:46:52] Jon Kostas: so I, I might've even taken that and So that's the thing about me. I'm fine [00:47:00] with whatever it, if whatever works for the person that, you know, leads them to a healthier, happier life. and, and the people around them too. that's important. I'm, I'm all for it. my approach is whatever works for, you know, you, is that kind of, is that a little edgy or
[00:47:26] Sonia: No, that's how I feel too. So no, I get that. Yeah, I didn't take naltrexone, but like, You know what? If I had, maybe I would have stopped 10 years earlier. Maybe I would have stopped 5 years earlier.
[00:47:39] Jon Kostas: is there some controversy around Naltrexone or?
[00:47:43] Sonia: Um, I don't know if there's controversy, or there's some stigma people feel about talking to their doctor about getting an Naltrexone prescription. And so there's some telehealth companies that prescribe Naltrexone, but I think there's some, yeah, I think there's [00:48:00] some stigma. in like AA communities, there may be some stigma towards Naltrexone.
[00:48:05] Sonia: Which actually brings me to my last question, which is,
[00:48:08] Jon Kostas: Oh, yeah.
[00:48:08] Sonia: Yeah, so, so it does seem right, like psilocybin was a bit of a magic bullet for you. And I'm just wondering, so given, right, that you, you did the therapy, you stopped drinking, is there the ongoing kind of work of sobriety still for you?
[00:48:29] Jon Kostas: So I was the, you know, one of the best case scenarios coming out of that. this trial where it just took away my cravings to drink. I don't, I mean, I, I, I'm at a bar, maybe a couple of nights a week meeting friends or whatever it is, a work event. And I'll get a, you know, alcoholic drink given handed to me accidentally.
[00:48:55] Jon Kostas: If I order something else or, right. I mean, I ordered a glass of [00:49:00] water and the guy gave me sparkling wine the other week and I took a sip and I'm like, Um, but that, the old me that would have justified, Oh, well, I just took a sip. I'm, you know, off the wagon. Um, so, uh, it took away my cravings to drink.
[00:49:26] Jon Kostas: it was a magic, you know, bullet for me. I mean, this surpassed my greatest expectations. I thought this treatment would help me. Manage my cravings going forward. Um, this just eliminated them all together, which was fascinating. So, that being said, there are still, there are other folks that were in the clinical trial I was with and I talked to them and they cut down their drinking.
[00:49:55] Jon Kostas: So, they're, they, they could drink, you know, I mean, 1 person [00:50:00] would have a drink at Thanksgiving with extended family. And that's it like once a year. So I think that's
[00:50:09] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:50:10] Jon Kostas: I mean, you're playing at fire at that point. so I, I mean, there really needs to be more research becauseI think this is going to be the, the future of mental health care.
[00:50:22] Jon Kostas: Um, but going back to the patience and the forgiveness aspect of it. I really need to work on that because, when I deal with friends or that, that are going through this and I'm trying to find them a clinical trial and then they'll relapse and I need to stop myself from, being fed up with them and have a loving approach, um, And it's tough and I was on the other end of that, but this treatment worked so well with for me that I, I forget about that.
[00:50:58] Jon Kostas: And I really, I need to [00:51:00] try really hard to remember those days and and the struggle that I had with with alcohol. So, um, Yeah, this, I mean, this really surpassed my greatest expectations of, and that's the best way I could describe it being have taking an antibiotic and, you know, you're that's how it was for me.
[00:51:25] Sonia: Given that, do you still see yourself, do you identify as an alcoholic or someone in recovery? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:51:41] Jon Kostas: so that's a great question. I, I guess, um, if, I mean, if, if they'll take me, um, You know, I'm not, uh, I haven't paid dues in a while, but, um, and renewed [00:52:00] membership, but it's when I was going through AA and all that, or any other treatments before the psilocybin. It was more of an identity to me.
[00:52:10] Jon Kostas: I was looking for, sponsors and stuff when I was in the program and in the rooms of people that I strive to be like, and people that I admired and what, you know, what lives are they living right now that I'd like to have. Um, and it was more. You know, I was always seeking out, folks like that, that I could surround myself with and be friends with and, Now I, I don't really identify with it.
[00:52:41] Jon Kostas: I'm, I, you know, I guess I'm an alcoholic still, technically, but, I just don't think about it. And it's like every October when I had my, you know, last drink, that's when I kind of remember like, oh, it's gonna be another year. [00:53:00] Um, that's really the only time I. That, you know, instead, versus in the past when I was count, literally counting days.
[00:53:10] Jon Kostas: And, so it's a totally different thing. Now I'm just counting years of, Oh, it's enough. Like, that's great. It's another year. Um,
[00:53:22] Sonia: yeah, I get it. I, before I quit, I think around when I quit, my brother had been sober about 7 years and we went on vacation and they brought a bottle of wine to the room. And I was like, my brother's an alcoholic. You can't. And and he was like, I'm not alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in 7 years. And I was like,
[00:53:41] Jon Kostas: Oh yeah.
[00:53:41] Sonia: Oh, and he was a big AA guy for a while.
[00:53:45] Sonia: And so I was surprised that he said, stop telling everyone I'm an alcoholic. I'm not an
[00:53:50] Jon Kostas: Yeah.
[00:53:51] Sonia: So fair enough. But John, can you tell us how we can help you in the Apollo pact and help [00:54:00] psilocybin get approved and be a treatment that people can actually access easily?
[00:54:08] Jon Kostas: Yeah. Thank you. You, I mean, you could go to our website. Apollo pact, a P O L L O. P. A. C. T. dot org. And, you could reach out to us there if you want to get involved. Obviously, we're a small nonprofit, so, tax deductible donations do help. Or you could call your, uh, representative, your congressional U.
[00:54:33] Jon Kostas: S. representative and ask them to join the congressional, psychedelics, advancing therapies caucus or the congressional path. P A T H caucus. and, that's really, it or, you know, if, if you are interested in this or a loved one is, you could reach out to us, we could help you find a clinical trial if there are any over there.
[00:54:58] Jon Kostas: Um, and, [00:55:00] know, stay strong.
[00:55:03] Sonia: This is awesome. Thank you so much, John. I think our listeners are going to love this conversation and I really appreciate you coming on.
[00:55:12] Jon Kostas: Thank you. Yeah. Talk soon. Take care.
[00:55:15] Sonia: All right. Bye.
[00:55:17] Jon Kostas: Bye.