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Hosted by Princeton Theological Seminary President Jonathan Lee Walton, Expanding the Table gathers leading voices in history, theology, and public life to explore questions of faith, leadership, and justice.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 00:06
Welcome to Expanding the Table. A Princeton Theological Seminary series from the Office of the President. I'm Jonathan Lee Walton, the eighth president of the seminary. And at this table, We gather leading voices in history, theology, and public life to explore questions of faith, leadership, and justice. Today's guest is the Honorable Reverend Dr. Raphael Warnock. Senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. The spiritual home of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And the junior United States Senator from Georgia. As a theologian, pastor and public servant. Dr. Warnock has built a life and vocation that resists easy categorization. From his formation at Morehouse College and Union Theological Seminary in New York, to his leadership in a congregation and Congress. His broad sense of vocation expands conventional professional boundaries. And he joins us today. To discuss his calling. His work. And his new book. The crooked places made straight. Reverend Warnock. I'm so honored to welcome you to the table today.
Raphael Warnock | 01:26
Great to be with you. Thank you. Pastor.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 01:28
Warnock. Now I've heard you describe yourself as Not a senator who used to be a pastor. But as a pastor who happens to serve in the Senate. I would love for you to just talk a little bit about your roles as pastor. As public servant. And how they complement one another. And not in competition with one another.
Raphael Warnock | 01:56
Well, great to be here with you. But my work in the Senate in a real sense, is an extension of my ministry. And I certainly do not mean that in any sectarian sense. I am not there in my work on the floor of the Senate or on behalf of the people of Georgia I'm not there proselytizing anybody. But when I say my ministry and my faith informs my work, I mean the values of my faith, compassions. Love, truth-telling. Centering the most marginalized members of the human family. That is work that I've been doing for years. As pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. Where I'm now in my 21st year. And it is, these are values. I'm talking about the values of my faith. Those values, I think, resonate in various faith traditions. And people who claim no particular faith tradition at all, but are people of moral courage. That's what informs my work every single day.
You know, I've been fighting for you know, health care for years. Preaching about it from my pulpit When Georgia refused to expand Medicaid, for example, when we passed the Affordable Care Act under Obama, President Obama. I was pastor of Ebenezer Church. But I was pushing it from my pulpit, talking about it. I preach every Sunday, after all, about a savior who spent a lot of time healing the sick. I've been working on mass incarceration. Issues of voting rights, whole range of issues. Making sure that every-- that we build a world where every child gets a chance.
Well, nowadays, I get to preach about that on Sunday. Walk alongside my parishioners on Monday. And introduce a bill. To deal with these issues on Tuesday. And so I've got two jobs. But as one project. Building what Dr. King called the beloved community.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 04:01
Yeah. That seems to be a through line. Throughout your career, I mean, we've known each other for a long time and the ways that even in graduate school, you know, we feel these kind of pressures, you know, to pick a lane. Whether you're gonna go into the church or you go into the academy and even your first book, "The Divided Mind of the Black Church," you write about that kind of bifurcation, real and perceived.
Raphael Warnock | 04:27
- What does Jerusalem have to do with Athens? - Yeah, exactly. - But I was a student after our alma mater, Morehouse College, I went to Union Seminary where I did my master divinity degree and stayed on to do a PhD in systematic theology. But I would describe my time in New York as a graduate student. As a running train between Union Seminary, where I was studying, at Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. Where I was on the staff almost from day one arriving as an MDiv student and ended up being at that church. For 10 years. But that movement between Union Seminary and Harlem's Abyssinian Baptist Church between Ivory Towers and Ebony Trenches. Talking about liberation theology in the classroom, but then getting arrested for the first time as an activist in the wake of an awful police killing in New York. Amadou Diallo, an African immigrant who was shot and killed while I was a PhD student at Union. It was the classroom and the laboratory of the world. Living that kind of organic life as a thinker, as someone who's engaged, as a person of faith, That's something that I've been blessed to do for a long time now. I've had great mentors in that regard, like Calvin Butts.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 06:01
Well, I was thinking not just Calvin Butts at Abyssinian. You had a model in Adam Clayton Powell Jr., previous pastor.
Raphael Warnock | 06:10
Yeah, to be sure, we're not contemporaries. We're to glory.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 06:13
Not contemporaries. He had gone on pastor who served in.
Raphael Warnock | 06:16
Whole different generation, but yeah. But a Congress. I was at Abyssinian. And I, and you know, I, came, of course, long after he had passed off the scene, but the folks who had worked alongside him they were the elderly members in that church. And they still would often regale me with stories of Adam. And his work.
I mean, he was a very effective member of Congress, lots of domestic legislation a lot of the programs that you think about in the Great Society. Adam Clay Powell Jr. Pushed a lot of that through while leading that church. And so I think that it may have been sometime while I was there. At Avicennian, at Union Seminary. I didn't plan to go in politics, but I think a seed was planted. And who would know that years later I would return to my home state and would end up running and serving in the United States Senate.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 07:21
Pastor Wack, I want to shift to your new book, The Crooked Place is Made Straight. Comes from biblical image. Beautiful imagery in the book of Isaiah. What is it that animated this project, this particular book project, and how is it related to that beautiful text?
Raphael Warnock | 07:40
- Yeah. No, I'm excited about it. This new project that I just finished. And it's really based on a sermon. That I have been preaching for years, even before I came to the Senate. I preached it in churches. I preached it in synagogues and temples and other places. But it's based on a text from Isaiah where he is calling on people who feel displaced, who feel exiled. " land, as it were. And I think that has resonances with this moment in the American situation. But out of that comes the powerful and poetic lines of the prophet lines that Dr. King used to recite, "Every valley shall be exalted." Every mountain and hill shall be made low, the crooked places made straight, the rough places smooth. The glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together.
So I take that passage and to talk about values that I want to lift up namely equity, integrity, human possibility. And inclusivity. But I'm engaging six big issues. That are part of the noisy arguments that we Americans are having in the public square. Namely, there's a chapter on voting rights and voter suppression. I talk about the dark money in our politics and how that's poisoning the well. I talk about mass incarceration. Gun violence, I talk about the climate emergency, all of these issues that are at the center of our lives. And I try to call us back to renewing the covenant we have with each other as an American people. The subtitle of the book is Reflections on the Moral Meaning of America. We're coming up on the 250th anniversary And so these are my reflections. On who we are as an American nation, as a pastor who serves in Dr. King's church, as a senator who represents the people of Georgia, in this moment. Where there is an authoritarian project afoot. And our country. There are those who would remake the nation into something that we won't even recognize. And through a moral lens and a kind of moral call, I try to summon our highest ideals and summon the moral courage, that's necessary for this moment.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 10:18
I often say that you can be political and immoral or amoral. But you can't be moral. And it not have political implications. Your moral commitments always have political implications. - Absolutely. - And you're identifying particular political issues that are at the forefront of today. But what I hear you saying is, but you're trying to pull our imaginations up out of kind of political machinations and talking points to a larger moral frame.
Raphael Warnock | 10:48
- Yeah, part of the sickness that ails us in this moment is that too many of our politicians are just focused on the next election. And we're all sort of very focused too often on these 24-hour news cycles. And too often, our media handle The big complicated issues of the day They cover politics like it's the playoffs.
You know, who's winning and who's losing, meaning the politicians. Who's in, who's out. Who's up? Who's down? Meanwhile, I think ordinary, everyday people around their tables are asking, "Who cares?" Like, if we make the politics about the politicians. We're in trouble. And so as a man of faith, who has been engaged in public service long before I went to the Senate. I'm trying to get us to center ordinary people. And particularly center the most vulnerable people in our society, including children. By the way, there's another passage in Isaiah that I like, and - That's funny, 'cause I was just.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 11:59
About to ask you about some biblical passages that really kind of are, you know, that serve as the bedrock of this moral framework.
Raphael Warnock | 12:07
- Well, you know, there's this passage in Isaiah and the book is based on Isaiah's reflections. And by the way, I think whether you're a Christian or a Jewish person or not a person of faith, I think I've characterized the book as a secular sermon. In the public square. And so it's a conversation for all of us. But Isaiah has this wonderful text. Where he says that The wolf will lie down next to the lamb. And A little child. Shall lead them. And it is language that is so idyllic. It seems almost out of place for the real politic that we all deal with every single day, the But I've often wondered as a pastor, And as someone who studies Scripture my whole life, what is, Isaiah mean that The wolf will lie down next to the lamb And a little child should lead them. Here is the thing that adversaries have in common. And political opponents have in common. We all love our children. And we all want our children to do well. I think the challenge for us is to be able to look into the eyes of other people's children. Particularly children, of people that we don't agree with or we perceive as other. Pick your geopolitical adversaries. Pick your political adversaries in our domestic politics. The thing that we all have in common, on the right, left, whoever we are, Palestinians and Jews, Whoever we are. Folks in the Congo who are at each other's throat. We all love our children. And the moral challenge is for us to be able to look into the eyes of other people's children. And see a glimpse of our own children. I think that maybe that's what Isaiah means when he says, "And a little child." - Children leave them. - Children leave them. And so we can see a glimpse of our own children. And what we want for them in the eyes of other children. You have to-- I'm a little serpy and sentimental about my kids, as you know. I'm an older dad. I've got a nine-year-old and a-- -and a seven-year-old. -God bless..
Jonathan Lee Walton | 14:29
You.
Raphael Warnock | 14:31
You do-- you do the math. So maybe-- maybe I'm settled now because I'm an older father, but-- but, you know, I love my kids. And There's a way in which they're gonna probably be okay, but there's a profound way in which Even with a dad who was a United States senator, I know that my kids are not really going to be okay. Until other people's kids are okay. And so it is that kind of moral sensibility that guides my work in the Senate, that guides my approach to public policy. It's the reason why I fight for a world where every child has a chance is the reason why I fight for good federal programs like Head Start. I was a Head Start. Kid. I want to make sure that every kid has a path and it's in our enlightened self-interest. To know that what's good for other people's children is good for our fabric.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 15:28
Own. We're all inextricably linked by a common of humanity and garment of mutuality. That's it.
Yeah. You know, you talk about love and love for kids and love for our children and love for one another. And we know in the Christian context, often these categories of love can be interpreted by others as a somewhat squishy. I remember Dr. Martin Luther King talked about, largely quoting Paul Tillich, you know, Power without love. Is reckless and abusive. But love without power is anemic and sentimental.
Raphael Warnock | 16:11
That's right.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 16:12
That's right. I would love just to hear you talk a little bit about-- because when we talk about love, But we have to talk about this balance of power. And we know that we're living in a moment right now where people are really laying claim to power.
Yeah. - Yeah. -devoured and divorced from.
Raphael Warnock | 16:29
Love. -Yeah, no, it's a very pertinent question, particularly in this moment. Because let's face it, we are faced with an administration that is, poisoning the ether. And the atmosphere with this idea that somehow love is weak. And that's why I love the title of that book by Dr. King, Strength to Love. - Strength to Love. - It takes strength. To love. It takes courage to love and we're not talking about the kind of anemic love that lies down but actually the kind of love that stands up.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 17:11
- It's not passive.
Raphael Warnock | 17:12
- That's right. It's the love of those who stood up in those days of the movement. And said, "We ain't gonna let nobody turn us around." And... But refused to give in to the same kind of poison that They refuse to become like that, which they reject it. And so I think that that's needed in this moment. We're literally dealing with an administration That is... You know, attacking the faith in this moment. Challenging the Pope. - Challenging the idea. That we should see the humanity of other people. Attacking you know, folks that they think are vulnerable. We're talking about immigrants or the immigrant community or people of color or women... - Or.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 18:15
Mocking the core principles, right? - Yeah, it's a kind of mindset. - As if loving one's neighbor somehow diminishes us. -.
Raphael Warnock | 18:22
Yeah, the new convert, J.D. Vance, teaching the Pope what Catholicism is and saying, "No, you gotta love your, with this order of love, you love your family and then maybe you get around to loving other people And I was glad that the Pope corrected it. I know you might need to go back through the catechism here, that there's a way in which All of us are family. And as Dr. King said, we're tied in a single garment of destiny.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 18:52
So that's this moment, getting back to your book. You pulled on that thread a little bit, but I want to keep on pulling on it. You said that there's a particular need in this moment in time, this historical moment in time and what we're going through to raise our level of discourse, to expand our moral imaginations. What are some of those things that you're seeing right now?
Yeah.
Raphael Warnock | 19:20
We're in a moment where we're seeing faith framed as a weapon... As a cultural And My faith is not a weapon, it's a bridge. And when religion becomes just a kind of framing of tribal tribalism and tribal belonging. We get a very dangerous example, a version of the faith, which is what we're seeing with Christian nationalism.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 19:52
- And tribalism is just a perverted form of community. - Yeah. - It's a perverted form of beloved. Forget beloved community, it's just a perverted.
Raphael Warnock | 19:59
Form of community. - Right, it's one thing to have a tribe, it's another thing to be caught up in tribalism. - Yeah, exactly. - This idea of always identifying yourself over against. - The other. - The other. - Whoever that, you know, whoever you perceive that to be. And that's what we're dealing with in this moment. There are certain, forces at work in our society. There are certain politicians who were trying to stir up the ways in which people feel insecure. And feel threatened. And...
You know, we're in a moment where And I talk about this in the book. We're in a moment. Where people are seeing a broad and widening chasm. Between what they need. From their government. And what government has delivered. And that's been the case for decades now.
Right? That's been the case for decades, if we're honest, across Democratic and Republican administrations. You would think that in the wealthiest nation on the planet and in human history, we would have found a way to ensure that people have health care. That they have a basic safety net. That they don't have to choose between sickness and poverty. And I argue that whether we're talking about healthcare or housing. Our country suffers not from a paucity of resources, but a poverty of moral imaginations.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 21:41
When you're in the book, I know you're dealing with dark money, you're dealing with voting rights, you're dealing with the criminal justice or criminal injustice system, prison industrial complex. I know that particular issue, you've written about this passionately and very eloquently. It's quite personal for you. I was wondering if you wanted to share a little bit as to why.
Raphael Warnock | 22:05
The United States of America, the land of the free, is ironically the mass incarceration capital of the world. We're about 4% of the world's population, our country is. ". 25% of the world's prisoners. We have more people in prison than any other nation on the planet. And we have a greater percentage of our people in prison. A greater percentage than regimes whose human rights abuses we love to deplore. We got more people in prison in America than they have in China. China has a billion people.
So we should think about that. But...
You know, it's something that I've experienced personally, as a lot of folks have. I have a brother. Who went to prison. For a nonviolent drug-related offense. In which no one was physically hurt No one was killed. And because it was an operation set up by the FBI. No one even got high. They controlled the whole thing. And my brother's... Crimes were serious. He was a police officer, so it was done under the color of law. And so there's no you know, no one's justifying what he did, But this first-time offender engaged in a nonviolent drug-related offense was sentenced to life in prison. And when you get life in federal prison, it is your physical life. Without the possibility of parole. And he was a veteran. And so I got busy working and trying to get a better outcome for my brother, to make a long story short, He ended up spending 22 years in prison. And the only reason he got out what he did was because of the CARES Act during COVID. They needed to let some of the older prisoners out. And so a man who made an awful mistake made an awful decision I guess in his mid-30s, walked out of prison at age 55, And, He's since gotten married. He's bought a house. He works every day. He's doing great, but these stories... Of the vast tentacles of the carceral state This is something that I've been working on. Let me quickly say that. That as we are witnessing what is happening with the mass deportations sending people to countries that they're not even connected to. And the building of these mass detention centers. I'm watching this very carefully as a member of the Senate. And as an American, citizen. I'm worried about The implications both now and in the future. I'll give you an example.
Social Circle, Georgia is a small town in Georgia 5,000 people. That's the population. The mayor of that town learned by reading in the Washington Post. That the federal government had purchased a large warehouse in his city. Where it intended to put a 10,000 bed detention center less than a mile from the local elementary school. Pound of 5,000. They're in the process now of putting a 10,000 bid The detention center is going to draw heavily on the city's infrastructure, their water and their sewer. They're not even set up. If they'd asked the people in the city, they could have told them, "We can't handle this." But they seem determined to do it. I'm continuing to fight for them. But there are examples of this all over the country. And I'm worried. About what this means for the immigrant community, both citizens and non-citizens, but I'm worried about the long tail of these large warehouses that are being built. I'm afraid that this might be the latest iteration and expansion. Of the consular state. And so in a moment like this, we need voices of courage. Voices of Faith. To pull us back. And say, let's invest. In our children. Let's invest in healthcare. Let's invest in housing. And, Let's build a future that's worthy of our children, all of our children.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 26:59
Let's disinvest in the Prison industrial complex. Alexis de Tocqueville, he said in the 19th century that a democracy in a country will be judged by this prison system. I really like Brother Bryan Stevenson.
Raphael Warnock | 27:28
You're better off to be rich and guilty than poor and innocent. And someone who's done the work that he's done, he knows that up close.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 27:37
So these are the crooked believe and we have hope that God will.
Raphael Warnock | 27:38
Places. The crooked places that need to be made straight. We.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 27:46
And God will use us to make them straight. And in that regard, what's giving you hope? These days. That's how I always like to end this. What's giving.
Raphael Warnock | 27:56
You hope? What gives me hope is just seeing people stand up. Everyday people stand up fighting the good fight. I talked last night in my lecture or after the lecture about how I went to Minnesota recently and I was inspired. By the people who were there because there they were in the midst of an occupation. There's no other way to describe that. It was an occupation. A city with 600 police officers looked up and they had over 3,000 federal agents on their streets. And what inspires me to get to your question is the people standing up. And those sub freezing temperatures, every night the breeze that they felt that was colder, than those cold winds that I felt in Minneapolis was the cold breeze blowing from Washington. That, the deep freeze of our moral sensibilities and of our humanity. And they stood up together, sang songs every night, bearing witness using, you know, these things. For good. And these became nonviolent weapons literally just filming what's happening. Alex Pretty lost his life.
You know, Others. I was just trying to bear witness And But those people stood up. And I don't expect The Trump-Vance regime to admit it, but the people of Minneapolis won. They pushed them out of their city. And in this moment, all of us are called to stand up. And remember that Dr. King was right, that the arc of the moral universe is long. But it bends toward justice. There are a lot of crooked places. In our politics and in this season. But we got to keep bending that arc.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 29:45
We've got to keep bending that up yeah we have got to keep bending that up Dr. Warnock. It is such a privilege and a pleasure to have you join us at this table today. We appreciate your service, sir. Thank And thank you.
Raphael Warnock | 29:57
You. Good to be with you. All right.
Jonathan Lee Walton | 30:03
These conversations are just one of the ways that we seek to live into our mission here at Princeton Seminary. Cultivating leaders shaped by faith, scholarship, and compassion. And opening up our learning community to the world. On behalf of all of us at Princeton Seminary, thank you for being part of this gathering. And until next time. May you continue to find ways to expand the table in your own communities. Expanding the table with faith, integrity, competence, compassion, and joy. Until next time. One love.