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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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To find out about our certification
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.
So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free.
Ride Free.
I've got Dr.
Kate Lund.
I hope I pronounce it right.
Might be Lund, might be Lund one
doesn't know with these Yeah.
Scandinavian names through
the North American filter.
But she is specialist in
the area of resilience and
particularly resilience parenting.
And those of you who know my story know
that I've had to cultivate some of that.
And those of you who are special
needs parents who are listening
to this are busy cultivating as
much of that as you possibly can.
And I like the fact that the
conversation is turning a little bit.
Away from just trauma, trauma informed,
da, da, da, all of those things, which are
the buzzwords of up until quite recently.
And because I, I've always felt a bit
like, well, yeah, you sort of can't
go around on planet Earth without
getting traumatized from time to time.
It's what do you do with it?
How do you recover from it?
That's always what's of interest to me.
And so I'm very excited to have Dr.
Kate to talk to us about that.
She's the author of a book called
Step Away which hopefully she'll
talk to us about and her own story.
So without further ado, Dr.
Kate, welcome to The Livery Ride Free.
Please tell us who you are,
what you do, and why you do it.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Sure.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
I'm, I'm glad to be here.
This is, this is gonna be fun.
So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
I've been doing this work for 20
plus years, and at this point I
work primarily with adults, many
of whom, most of whom are parents.
Oftentimes they also, in addition to their
own struggles or challenges that they're
facing, have a, have a child facing
some sort of a challenge or obstacle.
So sometimes we work concurrently.
I started out in medical psychology,
pediatric medical psychology and then we
moved about 17 times for my husband's job.
And I, then we had kids of our own.
I have 18-year-old twin boys.
So I really kind of worked to keep my
focus, my practice somewhat portable and
flexible so I could be available for them.
So kinda pivoted to the virtual
world and away from those 80
hour work weeks in the hospital.
But I still at this point
have a passion for that area.
And I'm out in the hospital, Seattle
Children's Hospital several times
a month, probably more than that
with my dog Wally, who is a part of
their animal assisted therapy team.
And that is a big, big piece
of my passion and my work these
days that I absolutely love.
In addition to that, I write books.
I have a podcast, and that's,
that's basically the, the
long and the short of it.
So that's me in a nutshell.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
What's your podcast?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's called The Optimized Mind.
And it's really is the,
the main goal is to.
Access the human experience of resilience.
How have folks overcome challenge,
built what they've built, bounced back
from adversity, that sort of thing?
Really from a hu through a human lens.
We interview folks across domains
corporate folks, entrepreneurs
authors, parents, athletes.
So it's a really wide range.
It's a broad, broad reaching show.
Rupert Isaacson: Fascinating.
Alright, now I've read
your bio, of course.
So I know about a little bit about
why you do this work, but the people
listening and watching will not, you
have your own special needs story.
Could you tell us that?
And then from there I want to start
asking how do we cultivate resilience?
So, but let's start with you.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Sure.
Absolutely.
So, yeah, when I was four, I was
diagnosed with a condition, a medical
condition called hydrocephalus.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Came on very suddenly when I was four.
And what that is, is it's the
cerebral spinal fluid isn't
circulating as it should, so
pressure builds up on the brain.
And so at four, I wasn't really
able to articulate, oh my goodness,
I have this horrible headache.
But I was throwing up, you
know, just outta the blue.
I would say my forehead hurt.
I would, you know, my eyes would
be kind of all over the place.
'cause when you have pressure
on your brain, your eyes don't
really work the way they should.
So it was really a hard, hard thing.
My parents were trying to
figure out what was going on.
Imaging in those days was in its
infancy, so it took a while for the
doctors to figure out what it was.
The good news is the condition is managed
with something called a shunt, which
actually circulates the cerebral spinal
fluid when it can't circulate on its own.
So I had a shunt put in.
Bad news is shunts break.
So a large portion of my childhood was
spent in and outta the hospital, coming
back to school looking different, feeling
different, you know, big glasses, half
ahead of shaved hair, wearing a huge
helmet when I was ice skating with my
classmates, you know, when helmets were
not cool back in that, in those days.
So that was, yeah, it was,
it was a hard, hard time.
And I was lucky because I had a lot
of great support from my parents,
my teachers, parents of friends, and
they helped me to, when the shunt was
working well focus on what I could
do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
And that then I think that made all
the difference for me really to be
able to move forward in a way that.
Enabled me to be resilient and
believe in my possibility as opposed
to just in what wasn't possible.
Rupert Isaacson: And
you still have a shunt?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I do, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That's for life, right?
Dr. Kate Lund:
That's
Rupert Isaacson: for life, yes.
And does it still break from time to
time, or are they now much better and
so there's, there's more stability?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, yes and no.
They do break.
I am, I have not had, knock on wood,
I should preface that with a knock
on wood, a revision since 2001.
Okay.
But it happens, you know, and
it's, it's nothing is guaranteed.
So yes, there's a, there's
that piece that lives in the
back of your mind at all time.
I mean, in the back of
my mind at all times.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So hydrocephalus
I know some people with it but
they were diagnosed at birth.
Is it is it common for it to
be a later onset like that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It can be a later onset.
And so for me the story is that at four I
was diagnosed, they didn't know why I had
the hydrocephalus because as I mentioned
in imaging was its in its infancy.
Mm-hmm.
So they could figure out, you
know, the, the ventricles were big.
The, the cerebral spinal fluid
wasn't circulating, but the
imaging was only that good.
So it wasn't until I was 18 when
the MRI with Gadolinium came out.
Gadolinium is the contrasting
agent for MRIs that they were able
to see the two tumors that were
actually blocking my aqueduct.
So that was another massive hurdle.
Actually.
It was you know, they, they had to
go in and operate on those tumors.
The second one of those operations
was very, very difficult.
And I was basically out.
For an entire year, postponed
college for a year had to recover.
And there too, I was extremely fortunate.
You know, it was a long drawn
out saga, but I did bounce back.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: and these
tumors presumably were, were
they benign or were they
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, they were, they were considered low
grade juvenile pilocytic astrocytomas.
So what that means is, in childhood,
a low grade tumor is much different
than if it were diagnosed in adulthood.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And yeah, I've, I was very, very
fortunate and that those had been
around since I was four, and they
were discovered when I was 18.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And is that what had caused
the hydrocephalus, in fact?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: I see, I see, I see.
So the late onset was
because of these tumors.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yep.
Exactly.
It's like, it's like it's possible
that they were there when I
was born, but they grew okay.
Because they were growing
through my childhood.
Mm-hmm.
We just didn't know I had them.
So, you know, it's, it's, yeah,
it's, they were there and that's
what caused the hydrocephalus.
Rupert Isaacson: And do they
have any idea what caused them?
No.
Or is that just a
completely open question?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's a completely open question.
They have no idea why that happens.
And Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you are clear
now, or are you, do you have to go
in and be checked from time to time?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, so when the tumors were diagnosed
that became the main focus, right?
It was like, oh no,
there are these tumors.
And so for about 25 years or so, from
that point, when I was 18, they were
watched very, very, very closely.
The frequency between scans
has definitely increased.
And now the focus is more on making
sure the shunt is working well.
Okay.
But, but even that, even
that's not all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So the, the, it has definitely spread out.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So tell me what are
the limitations I want to talk to what
are the non limitations and the, but
what are the natural limitations, both
for a child and an adult, if you are
wearing a shunt, if you are managing
this condition, what can't you do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so that's, that's a
really interesting question.
'cause I know what I had to stay
away from when I was a child.
You know fast rides at the
amusement park strobe lights,
blinking lights, you know, fast.
I couldn't do gymnastics,
hang upside down.
I had to be really cognizant of.
Getting hit in the head.
So I couldn't play
contact sports in any way.
I had to wear a giant, you couldn't
Rupert Isaacson: get into
pipes in the playground.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I could not, no.
And I, I, I, I, I shied away
from those anyway, but yeah.
Even the, and giant helmet, but
Rupert Isaacson: one can't
always avoid them, you know?
So is there a certain element of living
in fear as a child in the playground at
that, you know, that comes with that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think what, what happened for me,
I, I mean, I wasn't in fear about
fights 'cause that just, I wasn't
gonna get into that in any way.
It was my, and
Rupert Isaacson: it wasn't a, a
particularly bullying type of school?
Dr. Kate Lund:
No.
I mean, bullying, laughing from
a distance, but not, not pushing
me around or anything like that.
Okay.
But I think that there was an element of
fear because I was always afraid of what
was gonna happen and what could happen.
Yeah.
And all of that.
So I became absolutely
very, very cautious.
Like, I, I was a very cautious
child and I'm still cautious.
I mean, I, you know.
I, I, I'm not, I, I never had that kind
of mm, experience of being like a carefree
child who just did whatever in the moment.
Yeah.
Because I felt like it, I was always like
having to think about the ramifications.
Rupert Isaacson: And if you wanted
to say, for example, go off to the
Amazon and sit in the jungle for
10 years, is that feasible for you?
Or do you need, is that, no, I must
be close to good medical care where,
you know, there's that infrastructure.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I would say Yes.
I, I, I think, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I'm not, again, my
disposition wouldn't take me
to the Amazon for 10 years.
But, but yeah, definitely.
That's always kind of in the back of
my mind like, hmm, I can't, you know,
move to wherever just because I want to.
It has to be somewhere where there is,
is good medical, solid medical care.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
And then.
In terms of your own children
are the tumors completely random?
Are, is it hereditary?
Does that go in the back of your mind?
What if that develops or
is that not really a worry?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I mean, it definitely crossed
our minds when, you know, the boys were
young and, and all of these things.
But, and I, and before we had the
boys, you know, I, I asked those
questions, you know, is there perhaps a
hereditary or genetic component to this?
And they're like, absolutely not.
No, they were pretty, pretty convinced.
And, and my boy, my boys are great.
You know, they're, they're,
they knock on wood, have not had
any, any issues similar to this.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Then finally, pregnancy pregnancy with
a shunt, any different or, or not?
Dr. Kate Lund:
It's, it's very, it's doable.
But it requires a greater, a greater,
I, you know, more, more appointments,
more, but definitely doable.
Okay.
In most cases.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So all of this of
course, prepares you for helping
people with the resilience because
you had to learn to be resilient.
Let's just go back to your childhood.
Can you give me a point where you felt at
your most un resilient, like where was the
bottom of the curve and what do you think
were the tools that you found and employed
to begin to get you out of there that have
now brought you to the work that you do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's a really, really interesting
point or interesting question.
And I think, you know, there
were two kind of bottom points.
The first one I would say was
when I was 10 and my shunt was
not working for a very long time.
But again, the imaging.
Wasn't what it is today.
And they couldn't see what was happening.
I actually had developed a a cyst
which was gonna require a second shunt
and they couldn't see it at the time.
So I got, I was really, really
sick, but I was struggling through
because the doctor said there was
nothing wrong, even though Right.
I was not well.
And that was really a, a, a
bottoming out in terms of being
in school, feeling like that.
But then finally they figured it out.
I got to see and meet with and, and
have the cyst managed by another
doctor who I then ended up, who
then ended up following me, you
know, for the rest of my childhood.
So that I think was a, a big piece my.
Kind of in, in integrating or
internalizing this ability to come back
from that, you know, I had to be out
of school for like three, four months.
Coming back wasn't easy.
But the truth is, I did come back and
I was able to then focus on really
dial, dial in on what I could do
as opposed to what I couldn't do.
And one of the things that, that
had happened earlier is that, you
know, I couldn't play contact sports.
I had wanted to play ice hockey
like my brother, but that was out.
Mm-hmm.
So I gravitated towards tennis
and that became a big deal for me.
Like that was a huge piece
of my, my identity, my life.
And I became pretty good at it.
I was never the best, but I was
good, you know, and, and that was
really, that meant a lot to me.
And it, it reinforced for me what I could
do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
So tennis was huge coming
back from that, that point.
And then the second kind of.
This kind of dip or really low point was
after the second tumor surgery where I
was really, really, it was a very, very
difficult year with many complications and
many questions and all of these things.
And I was able to come back from that.
And riding my bike helped me there.
And I, I I, my dad gave me a bike
to help me recover like 11 months
after the whole saga started.
And I was able to start college that
following year and brought my bike
with me and use that bike as a way of
managing through all the challenges.
And that became a central
piece of my identity.
So I think all of those things helped me
focus on what was possible and really.
Started my path of like, oh, okay, I'm
gonna be, I'm gonna be a psychologist,
you know, I'm gonna help people to
move through and beyond challenges,
and I'm gonna, you know, that kind of
all started to crystallize in college
and wasn't a linear path from there,
but it was the beginning of, okay, this
is, this is actually what I'm gonna do.
Rupert Isaacson: So your parents
must have really gone through it.
Did you observe that at the time
and did that make you interested
even on a subconscious level?
Do you think because you, you,
you now kind of specialize to some
degree in resilience, parenting,
your parents must have had to
develop a fair bit of resilience.
They must have been worried
sick the whole time.
It's, but it's interesting to me
that you made that leap away from
yourself more towards parenting.
Why is that?
And.
Yeah, tell us a bit about your work
with resilience parenting, because
I, as someone who has to live that
somewhat daily that is of interest to me.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're right.
I mean, my parents, it was, it was not
easy for them, particularly in those,
well in any of the years, but in those
early years when the imaging wasn't, and
you know, up to snuff or whatever, what
it is today, and kind of like, well,
we don't know what's wrong, but yet
they knew something was really wrong.
So that was very, very hard and my parents
really helped me to focus on what I could
do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
They definitely struggled.
They were definitely very anxious
and sometimes that impacted me
a little bit, like, you know,
the whole like anxious piece.
But they did the very best
they could and they were really
there every step of the way.
And I really do believe
were catalysts for me too.
Kind of not see myself as someone who
could, couldn't do things, but rather
someone who could despite the challenges.
And so that was, that was a, a big deal.
And yeah, maybe, maybe it
was a subconscious thing.
My kind of gravitation towards
the, the resilient parenting piece.
I think another reason that
resilient parenting has become
kind of a primary focus is because
of my own journey as a parent.
And you know, my boys are 18 and
so there's been that piece of it.
So my, my new book, step Away, the
Keys to Resilient Parenting is written
through three lenses, the lens of my
early experiences, and those of my
parents mentioned at the beginning.
My 20 years as a psychologist
working with a lot of parents who are
struggling with some, some situations,
some challenge, medical challenge
or otherwise with their child.
I did my early training, my early,
you know, many years of training
in pediatric medical settings.
Working a lot with parents
in addition to the kids.
And then the third lens
is my life as a parent.
So I think there's, there's a lot
that brings me to this point, but
definitely I think some on, on some level
subconsciously and consciously related
to watching my parents struggle with what
they struggled in relation to my issues.
Medically,
Rupert Isaacson: tell us about
your journey as a parent.
How, what has happened?
Dr. Kate Lund:
My, my journey as a
parent has been awesome.
Not without, not without its ups and
downs, whatever, but you know, I.
Our boys were, were born in 2007 and
no sooner had we gotten them home
from the hospital, my husband's job
was transferred to another city.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what
does your husband do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
He is in sales and marketing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
So getting drafted to different places.
Yep,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yep.
Getting drafted to different places within
this, the same or different companies.
And so there was a lot of that early on.
So there was a lot of balance, you
know, striking balances, but, but I
entered parenthood thinking, no problem.
I can, I can do it all.
You know, I'm gonna have a robust career.
I'm gonna be the parent who's
present available, shows up.
I'm gonna focus on my fitness,
I'm gonna have my friends.
It's gonna be great.
No sooner had.
The boy's been born that I figured,
I've learned that that was not reality.
So there is no perfect balance.
There is no perfect.
It's, it's the it's the
balance that isn't right.
You have to just do the best you
can and strike a balance that
works for you in the moment and
in the, in the general situation.
And that's what I learned.
Took a while, but I learned it.
And that's really what I, what I
work with, with folks on as well.
There's no one size fits all.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And so the first, you know, several years
I kind of put my career a little bit to
the side so I could be present available.
And I was very fortunate
to be able to do that.
And the boys, the boys and I had
a good time as, as, as we were
exhausted, as we were tired, as I
caught many kid germs along the way.
Aside from that, we, we had a good time.
You know, I tried to.
To do things with them.
I wasn't, I wasn't
reading parenting books.
I was just doing the best I could,
you know, I was popping them in their
stroller and going out and walking and
they knew me by name at Starbucks 'cause
I was drinking way too much of that.
But, you know, it was, it was the
fact of really trying our best to
do the best we could in the moment.
And, and sure I didn't do everything
perfectly and I don't think
anyone does everything perfectly,
but I did the best they could.
My husband did the best he could, even
though he was gone like six days a week.
But he did the best he could.
And you know, then when the boys
were, Hmm, just about to turn
four, we took a cross country road
trip to our new home in Seattle.
And I actually wrote a book about it
narrated by my dog at the time and.
Super fun, super fun trip, and we've
been here ever since, you know, and
striking the balance I've plugged
my career in, I've built my career,
but still tried to be around as
much as as possible for the boys.
And you know, probably will start
a bit of a new chapter when they
go off to college here soon.
So, you know, it's, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: but they haven't
had a particular special needs
history or anything like that.
It's just been more the challenges that
come with being a busy working mom.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Well, you know, they've had, they've had
things, there've been bumps in the road,
you know, one of them had strabismus
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
And it's when the eyes
don't track properly.
Mm-hmm.
So there was surgery for that early
on, but we are very, very fortunate
that that panned out in a positive way.
But yeah, no, it's, it's been.
From a medical perspective, knock on wood,
again, to a typical childhood for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Good.
Okay.
So you describe your own journey into
resilience from those points of despair,
and they must have been points of despair.
Mm-hmm.
What's, what stands out to
me is it's about movement.
So one thing is tennis, another
thing there is riding the bike.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us
about movement and resilience.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's such a great question.
And for me it's been integral.
It's been, been everything.
And so when I was younger, yes, it
was tennis and being able to be out
there on the court with the other
kids and form relationships in that.
Hmm.
And I was never, never the best.
I was, you know.
The runner up in many tournaments, but
I really if ever won the tournaments.
Mm-hmm.
And that was okay as long as I was
out there playing and I was doing
it from the inside out, moving,
being out there on the court.
'cause I loved it.
Same with biking.
I mentioned the bike my dad gave me
when I was recovering from the brain
tumor surgeries and started riding that.
I rode it every single day,
I would say in college.
I rode it so much.
And the summer I graduated, I rode
my bike from Seattle to Denver with
a group called Cycl Ascending Hunger.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And we were, we were talking about
the importance of proper nutrition
and medical care for kids along the
way you know, in the various towns
that we were stopping in and such.
And that was a huge experience
for me because it was five
years after the massive.
Medical event with the, the
brain surgeries that summer.
And it, it meant everything
to me to be able to be out
there moving, doing that ride.
And I, I was stubborn.
I rode every single mile, even though
I was last, every single day, even
though I, I was in fine shape, but
I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't up
to the speed and the power that these
other folks on my, on my trip were.
But I was okay.
I, I came in, you know, I, I was out
there because I truly wanted to be there.
Didn't matter to me if I came in last.
I just wanted to be out there.
So the idea of moving in that way yeah,
has been a huge piece of my identity.
And will continue to be, I
mean, I'm doing it today these
Rupert Isaacson: days.
Are you familiar much with the
neuroscience of, of movement?
You know, so when, for
example, my son became verbal
in the saddle in front of me.
I noticed almost immediately that the
rhythm that the horse was in made a
massive difference between how much
or how little communication I got.
And then I started
recreating those rhythms.
They're sort of soft dancey rhythms
in, in horsey terms, you call
it, collected a collected rhythm.
And I thought, well, if, if this
is working on the horse, so well,
what about doing that off the horse?
Right?
So I emulated it with my shoulders.
I emulated it on trampolines, I emulated
it with swings, I emulated it with
yoga balls, anything I could think of.
And sure enough the results
were pretty similar.
And this also was born out with other
kids who we would then invite, you
know, to the, to the ranch to have
play dates and they would respond to
these rhythms on the horse and these
particular ways of balancing and moving.
So of course, at a certain point I,
became curious and was like, well,
I need to know why this is working.
So I went to talk to neuroscientists
and said, can you please explain?
And the two things it really seemed
to come down to was that if you rock
your hips and rhythm, your body will
produce the hormone oxytocin, which
is not just a feel-good hormone that
calms your over oversensitive nervous
system, which of course, a lot of
people say in your condition or in
the condition of my son would've had.
Which creates a lot of stress, a
lot of anxiety, stress hormone,
cortisol, which blocks learning.
So things can present as a sort of
intellectual disability when they're not.
It's like the intellects actually fine,
it's just kind of behind a locked door.
But then equally that same hormone
is the hormone of communication.
And then when somebody moves and
problem solves, riding a horse,
playing, playing tennis, riding a bike,
dancing the brain produces, a protein.
And that protein is called BDNF,
brain derived neurotrophic factor.
And that is neuroplasticity.
That is the building block,
the essential Lego piece, you
know, of, of neuroplasticity
that becomes those neurons.
And so when that was explained, I
was like, oh, well, okay, I guess
we could replicate this then.
And so we, we did.
And it sounds like to some degree
that was what was going on for you.
Did you, at a certain point when things
were at their worst for you feel that you
were in some kind of brain fog and did
you feel, did you notice how movement,
particularly moving and problem solving
and hard exercise and that sort of
thing, which you've described, did you
notice a coming out of the brain fog?
Sort of, can you just talk, describe
that process was, and, and if
not, then what was the process?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's really, really
interesting and I, I.
One thing is coming to mind.
It's that year I mentioned when I
had the, the first tumor surgery and
then I had the second tumor surgery.
And then there was a period of time
where I was really not functioning
very well in terms of my eyes were,
they were in a constant state of motion
because there was something, it just,
it was not good and it was related
to swelling and maybe something else,
they're not quite sure what I bounced
out a bit, but when I was in that space,
I couldn't read, I couldn't watch tv.
I was just kind of, I don't remember
the brain fog per se, but I remember
that I was just kind of there.
I mean, I was wandering around as a whole,
Rupert Isaacson: but stuck.
Your brain couldn't do.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I was just kind of, but what, what
I did every single day and what was super
helpful for me, and I wasn't thinking
about it in these terms that you just
described, but I think it fits and I
think it probably is what was happening.
I would go, we had this circular
driveway at my, at my parents' house.
And I would go and it was a 10th
of a mile around once and I would
just walk around and around and
around and that was what I did.
And I know that I felt better,
obviously because we feel
better when we move, you know?
And particularly if it's kind of a piece
of kind of what we need to be at our best.
But in that moment where I
was far from my best, I was
actually really, really impaired.
Those walks meant everything
like that was a big deal.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do
you think you walked?
Do you think that your body
actually was wise and new?
Listen, we need to get moving
here so we can get this brain.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Neuro plasticizing.
Do, because I, I am a great
believer that the body is wise.
Do you think that was what was going on?
Or, or how much of it
was a conscious decision?
Were you like, I just wanna move
because I feel like I need to move?
Like, what prompted you?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think there was a bit of both.
Because I've always been someone
who has thrived in movement.
You know, I've always wanted to be
in motion in some way, but in those
moments when it would've been very easy
to just sit because I wasn't really,
I, I was, I was not in good shape.
I think, yeah, I think
my body probably knew.
I, I think it was a combination, but for
whatever, I'm, I'm grateful that, that
my body was giving me those signals.
And I also, I knew enough myself to
know that, that it was gonna help
me on some level, you know, and put,
Rupert Isaacson: so tell me now
about the work you do and the book
that you've written, and how much
do you integrate movement into that?
And if so, what sorts of movement
and why, and how do you tackle this
with parents who are perhaps feeling
defeated and crushed and exhausted,
perhaps not wanting to move, et cetera.
You know, talk us through your practice.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, got it.
So yeah, so the, the book Step Away,
the Keys to Resilient Parenting
definitely integrates movement
Rupert Isaacson: step away.
I guess you have to move
to step away, right?
Yeah,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yeah, yeah.
We're actually, we're stepping away
so that we can step in more robustly,
but yeah, and you know, the first
piece is managing our stress response.
Finding a way to show up as level
as possible every day, because if
we're starting the day up here.
A stressor hits and boom, we shut,
we escalate to the point of shutdown
and that's not gonna gonna help us.
And so, you know, I teach that the
importance of finding that that modulated
space in terms of our stress response,
and that can either be through a mini
meditation technique that I teach,
derived from a technique developed
by a physician in Boston in the
1970s called the relaxation response.
So that's one, one thing to keep
us level coming up with a word or
a phrase that we find soothing in
one, in some way, and then breathing
and practicing that to the point of
integration so we can show up level.
And then it's layering on the
other tools and strategies, one
of which is definitely movement.
Finding a way to move each and every
day, whatever that looks like for you.
Because the big idea in this book,
and in really everything I teach,
is that we want folks to thrive
within their own unique context.
There's no one size
fits all in any of this.
And so some folks might be, oh yeah,
I've got the movement thing covered.
You know, I'm on the
Peloton every morning.
But some clients might say, well,
I don't really have time to move.
I haven't exercised in 10 years.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to start.
So those are two very different, you
know, starting places for integrating
movement in a, in a meaningful way.
So really it's about
those small steps forward.
We really wanna avoid having
that A to Z mentality.
And if we don't succeed
in that, eh, then why try?
So it's, it's helping folks to.
Notice and appreciate the small steps
that they're taking to build a foundation
of resilience, a resilient lifestyle
that helps them optimize within their
own unique context, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
Tell me about this chat from Boston
and his relaxation technique,
and why did you choose that?
What, what, why do you feel
that that is so effective?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so it's Herbert Benson's technique.
Herbert Benson is unfortunately
he's no longer alive, but he's a
physician in Boston and developed
this technique in the 1970s before
meditation, mindfulness, and the name
Rupert Isaacson: again?
Dr. Kate Lund:
The relaxation response.
Rupert Isaacson: The relaxation response.
Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
By Herbert Benson.
Rupert Isaacson: And why do you hone in
on this given that we live in an age of
mindfulness and other things like that?
Why, why that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Well because it's, it's this
technique is the cornerstone of
the MINDBODY medicine program at
Mass General Hospital in Boston.
And that's where I did in addition
to Shriners Hospital for Children in
Boston, a lot of my early training,
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
Dr. Kate Lund:
so I had a lot of exposure to
this technique, the research
around this technique.
So, you know, there are
many ways to get there.
It's just this technique is so
efficient and effective and simple.
That, that's why I gravitated towards it.
Tell,
Rupert Isaacson: tell
us, how does one do it?
What's the 1, 2, 3.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So super easy, you come up
with a word or a phrase that
you find soothing in some way.
You breathe,
Rupert Isaacson: like cheers, for example.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Whatever.
Whatever, whatever you,
whatever's gonna be soothing.
Okay.
You know, you don't want
it to be complicated and
you breathe and you do too.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you breathe?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You breathe as you would normally breathe.
You don't have to do anything.
And that's why I like it.
You don't have to be thinking
about how you're breathing.
You're just breathing.
Rupert Isaacson: So let's try it now.
Yeah.
So I like horses for example.
So if, if I'm feeling stressed and I
think about horses, that's gonna be a
little bit less stress than it would
be if I didn't think about horses.
So, would I say horses?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then what would I do?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You would just sit here.
Most people close their eyes.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna do it with you,
Dr. Kate Lund:
okay?
Okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Okay.
Now think of your word and just put
that on slow, repeat and breathe
Rupert Isaacson: forces.
Horses
Dr. Kate Lund:
and it's generally most
effective in your mind.
The words.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
I'm just,
Dr. Kate Lund:
oh, yeah.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Giving
the running commentary.
Okay.
So, oh,
Dr. Kate Lund:
got it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's assume
I'm talking about horses here.
Thinking horses.
Okay.
This actually is working.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that's the thing, right?
And so
Rupert Isaacson: is it that simple?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it is.
It really is.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And, and the cool thing is you the more
you practice for that five minutes in
the morning, five minutes in the evening,
this becomes somewhat of your baseline.
You're integrating it into your
baseline and it, so it's like a
Rupert Isaacson: mantra.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Effectively.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Yes.
With, with breath attached.
And the cool thing is, and
this works for a lot of, you
know, most all of my clients.
Also the younger athletes
that I work with, they can
keep it in their back pocket.
And if they're entering into a
stressful situation, a stressful medical
appointment, a stressful conversation,
a stressful sporting event, whatever,
can kind of pull this out and do it
for a minute or so to kind of level
themselves before moving into that space.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
Absolutely.
I mean, some people might say, oh, money
put me on, you know, which they say, you
know, has all these, but I, you know,
it is interesting that affirmations and
mantras, I remember when I was growing up
and despite the fact that I have long hair
I'm not much of a hippie and, but I grew
up very much in the seventies in England
where a, it was a lot of hippie dump.
Actually, it's wrong.
I'm, I'm a card carrying hippie,
but you know what I mean?
I'm, I, I, I wasn't drawn
to pop psychology or pop
spirituality much, and so.
We, one was brought up to dismiss that
a little bit and be much more stoic.
But there is no question that people
have found mantras and affirmations
really efficacious over millennia.
Some people call it prayer, you know but
I'd rather like the idea that instead
of learning some word in Sanskrit or
an affirmation that perhaps you don't
fully believe because you know, if,
if you are like loathing yourself
or something, or in deep despair,
if you say, well, I, I love myself.
I actually do believe that if you say
that enough, it actually does kick in.
'cause I've been in situations
where I've loathed myself and
people have said, oh, try these.
Affirmations I like.
So your affirmations, you stick
those, you know where you can imagine.
But then I actually, of course
had to try them, you know, and
of course they actually worked.
And then I realized, oh, I see
actually I, I, I am a lot more
plastic than I thought I was.
But I like the idea of, of putting
it in a language like that,
that doesn't necessarily trigger
somebody's, well, I'm not that sort
of spiritual person type response.
So we don't have to get over that
obstacle and that hurdle in order
to just find something effective.
Okay, so there I am, I'm breathing,
I'm thinking about horses and
I'm, I'm feeling a bit better.
What's my next step toward?
Dr. Kate Lund:
So it depends.
Rupert Isaacson: Resilience,
Dr. Kate Lund:
it, it, it depends.
But we wanna start integrating,
you know, a little bit of joy,
happiness, engaging in something
that brings you that moment of.
Levity of something beyond the challenge
or the difficult situation that you're
facing, or just the stress and overwhelm
that you are experiencing, right?
And that's a powerful, powerful thing
because again, super simple, right?
But so important because oftentimes
challenge or not just in the context
scope of our lives, we're moving
so fast that we forget to laugh, we
forget to find the joy in the small
things, and it's really important.
So give us an
Rupert Isaacson: example.
If someone's really low, I mean, one
could get on Google and look up dad jokes.
One could in my case, go swing my leg
over a pony, but then perhaps I'm far from
where the ponies are, so I can't do that.
So what are the small, accessible
joys that you feel you would
normally suggest to people?
Dr. Kate Lund:
So, you know, it can be as simple
as turning on your favorite song.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
It can be as simple as going outside
and sitting on the front stoop with
your favorite hot cup of coffee or tea.
It could be going into your garden
and looking at a beautiful flower.
You know, listening to the birds sing.
Anything that's going to shift you to,
oh, that's, you know, a wonderful sound
or a pretty flower, something like that.
Just those small moments.
And then we can build from there.
We can build into, Hmm, wow.
I love to draw.
Maybe I'll call my friend
and have a conversation.
You know, all of these things, if we think
about doing them in an intentional way.
It really does bring a moment of
respite, joy, that sort of thing,
into those points where we're feeling
so bogged down and so overwhelmed.
And I'm not trying to negate the
challenges here because those are real,
but it's really trying to take those
intentional steps that are gonna give us
at least a moment away from that space
Rupert Isaacson: to truth.
What do you do when people are
in that state of despair and
apathy which we know can overtake.
And then also with people who
say, well, I don't, I dunno what I
like, I I don't know what I want.
I'm, I'm quite lucky, like, you
know, I know I like ponies, so even
thinking about them is going to
make me feel better to some degree.
But not everyone, you know,
I've encountered this.
Not everyone actually does have that
passion or, or know what their passion is.
Some people might have
forgotten, pushed it away.
Other people, as you know, are
so overwhelmed, so despairing
that they fall into that apathy.
So.
Speak to that.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And that's a great point
because it's true, right?
You could be either so deep in
the apathy or you know, really be
struggling with what those things are.
So that's where, you know, that authentic
human connection between me in my role
as therapist or coach and client comes in
and really taking the time to understand
their experience, who they are, where
they're coming from, where that the
depth of that apathy is coming from.
And then slowly over time helping them
to, through conversation, through perhaps
journaling or some personal exploration
on some, some level kind of start to
uncover, well, what are some things
that maybe made me happy in the past?
What are some things that,
you know, I could envision.
Re-engaging in, even if in a tiny,
tiny way, because none of this,
there's no on button for any of this.
It's a process and there's
no one way to do it.
But it's slowly over time, building
a sense of awareness of what those
things are or were in the past.
That's important to help
people get in touch with.
And that happens through that
authentic human connection between
therapist, coach, and client.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you talked
about maybe going out into the
garden and looking at a flower
or listening to the bird song.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When I'm talking
to therapists, unless they're coming
from a particular angle, what often
surprises me is how little in the
clinical setting they talk about nature.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You did just talk about
nature, but I remember myself when I
was going through some talk therapy and
sitting in this office with the therapist
and looking, hating it no movement.
A room that well congenial enough was
a room and the, you know, challenging
frontal gaze of the therapist, you
know, sparking my cortisol my stress.
And I remember sort of looking out the
window at the trees and thinking, gosh,
if we were only walking out there under
those, I would be feeling so much better.
I'd be so much more receptive.
And after, funnily enough, after a
few sessions, I said to the therapist,
could we not do this thing out there?
And he came up with like a bazillion
reasons why that would not be possible.
And I said, look, you know, I actually
know something about the brain.
It's, it's.
My job to, doesn't mean my brain
is necessarily working very
well, but I, I I do know sort
of what it, what its needs are.
Would you indulge me and then
find, you know, still resisting?
So I said, look, I'll pay you
an extra hour, you know, that
will cover the 10 minutes.
It will take us to go down the
stairs to go out there, blah,
blah, and then to come back up.
How about that?
And with great reluctance, the
therapist finally conceded, but
wouldn't do it more than another time.
And I realized that actually
I needed then to find somebody
who would take me into nature.
So I did.
But in the clinical
setting, it's so not there.
And yet that's our habitat.
So how can we find wellbeing?
Without that.
And how do you incorporate that?
Because I'm sure that when you
are going into clinical settings,
there are some constraints.
How do you incorporate
movement and nature?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a
hard question, like when you can't
get out of the clinical setting.
Mm-hmm.
Like, for example, with this
therapist who is reluctant to,
and, and sometimes there are, yeah.
Constraints given the location of
an office or that sort of thing.
I personally do most of my work, all of
my work actually right now virtually.
So it's a question of what is available
to the client, you know, where they
are, you know, whether it's stepping
out into the garden or, you know,
so coming up with a plan as to what
the possibilities are for them.
But another, another space where I see
this actually is when I'm working out at
the Children's hospital with my dog you
know, they have, I mean, very clinical
setting inside the hospital obviously,
but when a child is well enough to
walk a little bit or perhaps they can
go outside to the hospital garden in a
wheelchair or something along those lines,
those moments are very, very powerful.
So, yeah, it's, mm,
adapting with flexibility.
Within the context of whatever, whatever
that clinical setting is, to try to
find options and opportunities and
to encourage those if it's not top
of mind for the patient or client.
But yeah, there are those, those moments
where perhaps it's less feasible.
And then, you know, it's certainly not
the same thing, but if nature, if a nature
scene can be soothing to some, someone
we can work with visualization around
helping folks to engage through these
images that they create in their mind.
So that's, that's another opportunity.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
I'm glad.
Well, I'm glad you bring that up
because yeah, what we know that.
Both negatively and positively, the mind
will respond to the stimuli that don't
necessarily have to be real, right?
So the co the amygdala fight,
flight freeze will re respond to
a threat that's imagined almost as
strongly as a threat that's real.
But similarly, you know, in our
work sometimes with what we call
movement method, maybe we're working
in schools and we'll look at a very
sterile classroom and say, you need
to bring a bunch of plants in here.
You know, and then the, sometimes
the school administration will
say, well, here's a bazillion
reasons why we can't do that.
And usually it'll come down to like
fire hazard and allergies and we,
they'll die 'cause we can't water them.
And so we thought, oh gosh,
what are we gonna do about that?
And we realized, oh, well then
we just put fake plants in there.
And because the brain, when you see the
fake plants, basically responds the same.
And we'll put pictures of nature on
the wall and, and, and and we'll.
And so I like the idea that you
will also give people visualizations
of nature because I, it would,
it would seem that those
play upon the mind in the same way
largely that the real thing does.
Do you get people who are so far removed
from that, that they'll try to reject it?
And if so, how do you help them with that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
You know, absolutely.
You know, folks might not have
experienced sort of the soothing
impact of being out in nature or, you
know, the, the, the positives around
that, or perhaps it just hasn't been
part of their life and experience so.
What we can do is, you know,
suggest, encourage, and try to
build on that through that authentic
connection right in mm-hmm.
In the work that we're doing.
But at the end of the
day, we can't force it.
No.
But by building an awareness of the
possibilities of the positive impact over
time, you know, sometimes folks are able
to, you know, shift gears and see things a
little bit differently and then are often
pleasantly surprised by the impact of
engaging in that way, that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a little
suggestion can go a long way.
It's true.
And, and, and what people might resist
at first, perhaps after they go away and
have a bit of a think even, or not even a
think, just their subconscious gets going.
You mentioned you use your dog, you bring
your dog into these clinical settings.
So for me, that is nature, right?
The animal is automatically nature.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
So by bringing a dog into a sterile
hospital walk, you have effect, you
brought in the forest, you know?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What gave
you that idea and Yeah.
How did you develop it?
Yeah,
Dr. Kate Lund:
yeah, yeah.
So you're right.
I mean, it's incredibly powerful.
It's, it's, it's awesome.
It's, it's really, really
meaningful to me as well.
And I had always wanted to train
a dog that I had for this purpose.
And I think it goes way back to my
early childhood when I would sit with
my dog, peanut for hours, hours as
I was, you know, maybe recovering
from a shunt revision or, oh.
Or So your dog
Rupert Isaacson: had a
big part of your recovery.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes, abs a hundred percent.
And so that I think is
where the idea first came.
You know, I was really, I mean obviously
it was subconscious at that point,
you know, when I was four I wasn't
thinking, oh, I'm gonna train my dog
to go to the hospital to visit kids.
But that's really where the idea
first formed, I'm sure of it.
Because I would sit for hours
with her and she would really be
a primary support in helping me
through some very difficult moments.
So there was, so there was that.
And then, you know, when we got Wally,
who is my certified therapy dog to go out
and work on this, on this animal assisted
team, he, his disposition just felt right.
And I also had an
opportunity arise, right.
When we got him to join a group
of join a group where we were
starting to do the basic obedience
for this exact kind of work.
And so I joined them and it
was just, it was awesome.
Like he, he took to it, you
know, got all the obedience down.
We worked in assisted living
facilities for a year because he
had to be two before he was ready
to be eligible for children's.
And it just evolved from there.
And it's really, if not the most, one of
the most meaningful things I do right now.
I love my work with him
out at the hospital.
It's, it's so powerful to see
a child who's struggling with
whatever it might be, light up
when they see the dog walk in.
Or the child who's struggling with
physical therapy at the end of a hall
and really is, is not, not wanting to
engage and not physically believing.
They're able to engage, but then pointing
at Wally and saying, I wanna pet the dog.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Dr. Kate Lund:
We stay at the other end of the
hall and the child does it, you
know, they, they, they walk down the
hall so that they can pet the dog.
It's, it's so they can pet wally.
It's it's really powerful
stuff and it's, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I mean that
sort of motivation and of course
the moment you, you are caressing
another mammal your pet, you are of
course getting oxytocin, you know?
Yeah.
We know this, you know but it's, and
that's, you know, obviously one of
the most healthful hormones we can
have coursing through our bodies.
Dr. Kate Lund:
A hundred percent.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
Where did you discover, I mean
obviously you had your own experience
with this when you were a kid, but
when did you discover the sort of more
formalized world of animal assisted.
Therapies and hey, how did
you get involved in that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, so I did all of my early
training as a psychologist out in
hospitals in Boston some of the bigger
hospitals, mass General Shriners Hospital
for Children, Beth Israel Deaconess,
and all of those places had, it was
much, it was almost 20 years ago now.
So animal assisted therapy wasn't quite.
As prominent and as
prevalent as it is today.
But it was there, it was around.
And so I'd always kind of observe
and watch and Hmm, that's so cool.
You know, and I would see the
impact that the dogs were having
for patients and, and such.
So I think you know, I started
learning about it at that point.
And then, you know, we moved a lot
with my husband's job and I, it, the
timing just wasn't quite right for me
to get actively involved until about
four years ago when we got Wally.
And I had the time, I had the puppy and I
had the strong desire to make this real.
So that's kind of how that happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Do have
you developed it since then?
Are you part of any kind of group
and when you're talking to parents
that are looking for resilience,
do you guide them towards animals?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you know.
I don't know if I really guide
them towards animals, but, well,
actually, first, to answer your
first question, I, I am part of a
group a certification organization
called a TD American Therapy Dogs.
Okay.
And they certify us.
They're many groups out
there, but that's the one that
certifies for, that certifies me.
And so there's a whole group of us here in
Seattle that's part of that organization.
So that piece is pretty fun.
And we'll go out and do things together
in schools and stuff like that.
But you know, I don't necessarily
direct folks clients outside of the
hospital setting towards animals,
but most of my clients have animals.
And we do talk about the soothing,
kind of relation aspect of the
relationship and that sort of thing.
But I will tell you that when I'm
out in the hospital with Wally.
You know, if a child is not really
up for a visit or in a procedure,
but the parent is there, I mean,
they always run out into the hall to
hang out with Wally for a little bit.
I mean, so it's very, very
powerful what he's bringing to
them in addition to the, the kids.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do
animals make us more resilient?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, I think it's because
honestly, they're in the moment.
They're showing up unconditionally.
They're there for you and they're
not thinking about what's just
happened or what's gonna happen.
They're in it, you know, and they're
so well able to, I believe, pick
up on, what somebody's emotional
condition is in the moment.
You know, I know that I feel it with,
with Wally and me, you know, if I'm,
you know, stressed or struggling with
something on a given day, you know,
he'll come up and, you know, well maybe
put his head on my, on my on my lap.
But like, if I am, you know,
in a different space, you know,
he'll, he'll respond differently.
And I see he'll respond differently
depending on what's happening for kids.
He's visiting in the hospital too.
If he notices that a kid is really
withdrawn or struggling with something,
he'll literally come in and pop his
head on their knee, for example.
Whereas if a kid is, you know, smiling
and saying, come here, come here.
You know, he'll go in a bit more robustly.
He'll offer them his paw.
You know, it's just these, these,
these subtle, subtle differences,
subtle shifts in how he's showing up.
But the, the fact is, the bottom
line is animals always show up.
And I really do think that
they're able to, to discern
what we need in given moments.
And they're not bogged down by like
the baggage of what's happened or the
fear and worry about what's coming.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that we, on
a, on a subconscious level, just take that
on so that by seeing the animal constantly
showing up, it allows us to show up?
It teaches us or shows us how to show up?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Oh, I think so.
Yes.
I think for sure,
particularly in those moments.
And then if we're able to take that
a step further and really recognize
what's happening, then that can be
a really powerful reminder to us.
To show up even when the animal
isn't present, if that makes sense.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
No, I do.
And I, you know, our, our
minds are so open to metaphor.
Metaphor is the, is the
human thing really, isn't it?
The storytelling ape.
I think it's worth considering this
thing that yeah, animals sort of
lead by example, but that we do
actually follow those examples.
And I, I guess our, our language is sort
of peppered with metaphors and sayings
of one kind or another adjectives, you
know, that, that describe being like
this animal or being like that animal.
And sometimes it's negative, you know,
you dirty pig or whatever you swine.
But although actually pigs are
so charming, it's, it's always
struck me as an odd one, that one.
But normally we use animal
stuff quite positively.
It seems.
Okay, so you, let's just go back to
your book and your, and your practice.
You, you give people these
relaxation techniques to get
them to a sort of calm baseline.
Mm-hmm.
You, you give them the visualizations
some of which involve nature.
You have your own practice of course,
which does involve animal assisted
going through your book Now, what's the
next stage in resilience, parenting?
Here I am, you know, feeling un
resilient in my parenting moment.
And sometimes I still do, you know,
despite the fact that my son's doing
really well, and so I'm not always
feeling resilient, you know, so of
Dr. Kate Lund:
course
Rupert Isaacson: what's,
what's, what's the next stage?
Dr. Kate Lund:
And that's, and that's a great
point that you mentioned, you
know, 'cause 'cause it's true.
'cause we're not always feeling resilient,
even if we're building, you know?
Yeah.
These skills into our life and experience
on a foundational level, they're
gonna be moments when we don't feel.
Resilient.
Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes
Dr. Kate Lund:
more than
Rupert Isaacson: moments.
Yes.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yes.
Sometimes more than moments.
And trust me, I, I, I get this.
Yeah.
And, and so, you know, it's,
it's a question of really
building these things in.
So you mentioned some of
the, some of the key ones.
You know, the, the nature
piece, the visualizations, the
managing our stress response.
You know, we're encouraging folks
to have some sort of social support.
We know the power of social
support in building our resilience,
our resilient lifestyle.
You know, whether that looks like
can, because you see the thing is with
social connection, we can be moving.
Through life so fast,
we can be bogged down.
We can be overwhelmed that we just
think, Hmm, it's not important.
I don't have time.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Really it is important to intentionally
try to carve out that time, make
some sort of connection as often
as possible to have that, that
context of social support in place.
You know, whether it's a phone call
to an old friend or if it's a coffee
at the local coffee shop with an
acquaintance or a friend, whether it's
joining a group, a parent parenting
group related to a challenge that you're
having or a hobby or something fun.
You know, I've got a group of
friends who gets together on Sunday
mornings and I'm often not able to
join, but to go hiking or walking
their parents from the same school.
You know, it's that kind of a thing
just to kind of have that connection.
However you're gonna get in touch
with it is really powerful in
terms of normalizing the fact that,
yeah, life isn't easy necessarily.
Things get hard, and that's okay.
And here's what helped me.
And not that there's a one size fits all,
but having ideas and thoughts around it.
So, so social support, social connection
is a really important piece of, of
what we talk about in here as well.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
Now let's talk about crisis.
So there are times when things
become so pressing that or
everything goes outta the window.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And one hasn't
the bandwidth for anything
other than straight up survival.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When people
are in that kind of mode.
Again, what are your recommendations?
Dr. Kate Lund:
We wanna make sure that they understand
when it's necessary to elicit professional
support, you know, or, you know, call
9 1 1 or go to a local emergency room
if we're in that level of crisis.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
But if it's, if it's not at that
point, but rather a point where folks
are so bogged down, so overwhelmed
that there's really not any bandwidth
for anything else, it's a question
of doing the best they can in those
moments to move forward or just be as
best they can without, without that
added stress of, well, I should be
doing this, I have to be doing that.
Sometimes we just need
to be, so there's that.
Not putting that external pressure
on them, you know, internal pressure
or going for, like, I have to do more
if, if in that moment they just can't.
But I wanna, you know, make sure that
folks are aware that, you know, there
are those moments where they should,
you know, go to a local emergency room
or call 9 1 1, that kind of thing.
But I don't know, does that
answer the, the question?
Because there are,
Rupert Isaacson: well, yeah, I'm, I'm
just wondering if whe because you know,
when, when once amygdala is really
activated while it's full of cortisol
or it's not capable of rational thought.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you can be
highly intelligent, highly educated.
Yeah.
And behave like an absolute idiot
because the neurotoxins in your
brain with the cortisol are simply
preventing you from reasoning.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have
things that help in that mode?
To sort of bring one back to oneself so
that one can actually figure one one's
way through and get out of reaction.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, it's, it's managing the
stress response on a consistent basis that
we uhhuh come back to in those moments.
That really is kind of leveling out.
But, you know, if somebody is in a space
where, you know, they're, they're so
far escalated, so escalated to the point
of shutdown, you know, the, the reality
is it's gonna take a little bit more
to get back to that modulated space.
But that's the, that's the first go-to,
to get back to that modulated space.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
If, if you yourself are driven to the
wall, I'm sure it's happens occasionally.
What's your.
Go to.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, that's a great a
great, great question.
And it's true, you know, sometimes I
am bogged down and driven to the wall.
So it depends.
Sometimes it's getting
out for a long walk.
Sometimes it's, don't move
Rupert Isaacson: it again,
Dr. Kate Lund:
nature again.
Yep, yep.
Nature movement.
Sometimes it's jumping on my bike.
But if I've been super active and
I've put a large number of miles in
on my bike or a large number of miles
on walk-in and, and I know that my
body is a little bit exhausted too.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I might take a nap.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
I might tune out with my favorite
podcast or something along those lines.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, I might kind of
do something like that.
So it kind of is situationally
dependent, but oftentimes
there's movement, there's nature.
But sometimes there's an app.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but yeah, I think
what you just described there, so if you
have, if one's all pent up that desire
or, or, or the ameliorative effect
of really hard exercise, okay, then
we're gonna get some neuroplasticity.
That's going to create
a brain change, right?
But then also of course, we're
gonna end up with happy hormones.
We're gonna end up with
endorphins that are going to
allow us then to pause and reset.
That's the nap.
And then that's a reset
of the nervous system.
Meanwhile, because you just did that
hard exercise, that neuroplasticity has
a certain knock on, carry on effect.
So even while you're napping or tuning out
to that podcast that neuroplasticity sort
of keeps, keeps going, and then you can
sort of come out of that at the other end.
With a bit of a different brain.
But I, I, so I think what you just
described is very sound from a,
from a neurological point of view.
It's just that, you know, I
think a lot of people don't
necessarily have access to that.
And it interesting you talk about napping
because in the stoic school of Wasp
fish culture, we're not supposed to nap.
That's a sign of weakness.
You know, we're supposed to
flog ourselves and keep going
and keep going and keep going.
And this, I, you, you might be aware
of what Google apparently used to call
on in its campus 20% time, apparently.
Back in the early days people
employed on the campus would be
allowed to spend 20% of their day
not working because it was known.
Among the upper management, that
it was in that sort of daydreaming
time or doing something else that
people came up with their best ideas
and those ideas belong to Google.
So you could sort of do anything
that you wanted to and apparently
that's how Gmail came into being.
But I guess what you're really
talking about there to some
degree is also myelination.
Right?
So, you know, myelin being the fatty
tissue that grows around new neuron
connections when they're made, which are
a bit fragile to begin with, you know?
And then as we rest that fatty tissue,
like a sort of insulation cable.
Comes around them and then
makes them secure, and then
we've got a new neural pathway.
Without that nap, it's very difficult
for those neurons to remain connected.
And so what we learned, or so it might,
we might forget it, we might lose it.
How do you deal with when people are very,
very resistant to the idea of the nap?
I'm a great believer in it,
but I'm a late comer to it.
You know, I, I, for years would never
allow myself to, and I remember people
sort of trying to encourage me to do that,
and I'd absolutely blow that out away.
And then I realized that
that was just really stupid.
But, you know, this is in our culture,
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: The workaholic, the,
the, the self martyrdom, all that.
How do you help people through that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, it's, it's again, it's an important
question and no one size fits all, per se.
I, I have been slow to come to the
nap too, because, you know, you always
just wanna be moving forward and Wow.
What do you, what does that mean?
But I have felt the
power, the benefits in it.
Yeah.
My husband's always been a napper, you
know, and so it's, it's so fascinating.
Right.
And to recognize, yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
So that was a great thing that
he was doing as opposed to,
why are you napping so much?
This, you know, it's like, whatcha doing?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have to write
him an apology letter now for all the
times that you ed on him for napping?
Dr. Kate Lund:
I think, I think I was
able to apologize verbally.
It was fine, but Yeah, no,
it, we laugh about that.
It's pretty funny.
But, you know, again, it's, it's kind
of trying to introduce the potential
benefits and recognizing that, you know.
All of these shifts, all of these
changes that folks make have
to come from the inside out.
So it's educating, it's giving
examples of, you know, why this
could be beneficial and encouraging
folks to try it in small bites.
Mm-hmm.
And seeing what happens.
Because we like to have folks integrate
changes which feel daunting or
overwhelming, or like, they're not
aligned in small bite-size pieces so
that they can integrate them over time
because the, there's no button that
they can push to be like, oh, I can feel
the benefits of a nap and I'm a napper
now, you know, that kind of a thing.
So yeah, it's a process.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
What, what is the number one biggest
hurdle to resilience that you see?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, it's.
Folks having trouble slowing down to the
point of understanding what they need
to be at their best, what they need to
optimize their overall sense of wellbeing.
So it's a process to help folks to slow
down and kind of explore what those
things are and then integrate them over
time to build that sense of awareness
of what they need to be at their best.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The slowing down again.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The breathing, the perspective.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
And, and yes, the perspective and
creating that space to gain perspective
and to even gain perspective on what
it looks like to be at your best.
Sometimes we're so used to functioning
in a suboptimal place that we don't
recognize that there's more is possible.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: it's true.
We get very used to existing
in that sort of cortisol state.
We're good at it.
I mean, I guess we are resilient.
Yes.
Humans are resilient.
Uhhuh, do you, okay, so just
bring it back to parenting.
So
in an ideal world, we have two
parents but those two parents
are not always on the same page.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: When the parents
are beginning to battle about
the best way forward for a child
this of course can escalate it.
Yeah.
We don't need to say much more.
I should imagine a certain,
you know, a fair amount of
your work is dealing with this
Dr. Kate Lund:
mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In your book, how
do you help people through that?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you
Rupert Isaacson: know, apart
from just telling them to
go to counseling, you know?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right.
Yeah.
You know, so it's, well, so the
book has case examples throughout
to illustrate main points.
Okay.
And so in the scenario that you just
described, communication is key, right.
And not always easy, right?
Well, yes.
Not always easy.
In a perfect world, yes.
Communication between the spouses that are
the two parents that are not on the same
page in terms of the best way forward.
So we encourage communication to, to the.
Extent possible.
We also recognize that we're gonna have
different ways, perhaps, of viewing things
that might cause tension, angst difficult
relationships to get more difficult.
But one thing that's really important is
to mm, try to work those differences out.
Come to a, a, a common understanding
away from the children.
So not being, not having those difficult
discussions in front of the kids.
And also then trying to help
each parent to understand the
other a little bit more fully.
Except that we might have different ways
of looking at things and what's the middle
ground, you know, those types of things.
It's, it's a process.
There's no one size fits all, and
there's no one perfect answer.
But it's really coming up with a
compromise, a middle ground between
the different ways of looking
at things and going from there.
And that really happens through
a willingness to listen and try
to understand the other person
and accept that there's more than
one way to make something happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you give
people techniques for that listening?
Dr. Kate Lund:
You know, it's listening.
It's sometimes journaling
on our response to our.
Spouse or our co-parents or whatever,
their way of doing things, they're kind
of thoughts about how something should be.
The other thing that's really important,
and not to be a broken record on this,
but to be showing up in that level
space to be modulating our stress,
our stress response, and to try to
show up in an optimized space, in
an optimized way ourselves, so that
we're better able to engage in these
conversations, in these discussions, in
these areas, which are more challenging.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, someone once
gave me a really good technique, which was
helpful to me when I was in a situation
where I, I, I, I was finding it very
hard to listen, and the other person was
finding it very hard to listen to me.
And you know that that's not optimal, but
things have just moved to a point where,
boy, and what they said to me was, ask
yourself, where's the awesome in this?
And like, just from a purely
selfish perspective, where is the
op hidden opportunity here for me?
Even amid, among this hostility
where it seems that you are not
there, there, there is no opportunity
other than to try and survive it.
But just to ask that question, is it
possible that there is something, there's
some little golden nugget in here that
is actually a key to my own freedom.
And if so.
Should I not listen quite
closely to see if that's there?
And that made perfect sense to me.
It was funny, it, it, of all
the things that I was told,
that one really resonated.
I think partly because also I
have a background of living with
hunting and gathering people
and this idea of tracking.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Constantly tracking.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's very hard
to track Well, if you're upset 'cause
you're not following the signs.
Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right, right.
Rupert Isaacson: So just to stop and
ask oneself that, and that became
a habit which I then found helpful.
But, you know, by no means foolproof,
but it definitely helped me avoid
falling into cycles of conflict
or bitterness or, knee jerky sort.
Well, all like, so you have your knee
jerk, but then you have your paws and
your, but it, it, it, it, it was that
piece of advice that, that, that helped.
I wonder if that's similar to perhaps your
your thinking of the word that
brings you pleasure and joy.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And thinking of the
thing that brings you pleasure and joy.
That it allows you a
moment of perspective.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is very difficult
to do when the adrenaline is rising.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless, if,
if that's a sort of a muscle one can
exercise and strengthen to some degree a
sort of response, a neurological response,
one can almost like a muscle memory.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Because creating that space,
that perspective allows us.
To respond as opposed to
react, particularly when
we're on different pages.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
And it's so funny, you know, I can, I
can catch myself sometimes in the sort
of everyday stuff that goes on thinking,
oh, I didn't do that there, I didn't,
I didn't have that pause between my
reaction and my response or so, you
know, that if I had only just paused a
moment and separated myself for only a
nanosecond from the reaction, then my
response would've been so much better.
But I suppose at least I do think
those things these days, whereas
in the old days, I wouldn't
have thought about that at all.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Right, right.
And it's, it's a process, right?
And so shifting in that, yeah.
Direction, I love it.
Cool.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I think
that's the important thing about a, a book
like yours in that it does give people
chance to bring their attention there.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What is it
they say in law of attraction?
You know, energy goes where attention
flows, where attention goes or, or
something like that, that you know,
when you put your eyes on a particular
path, that's inevitably where you'll
sort of end up walking towards.
I dunno if you're familiar
with Neville Godard.
The the, he was a sort of a,
before new age existed, sort of back
in the forties and fifties, he was
a bit of a guru who interpreted it
through a very Christian scripture
sort of lens and very much sort
of early law of attraction stuff.
And he would say that in the Bible, when
they say you to turn the other cheek,
if you're slapped, is not to be a pussy.
It's to simply.
If you don't like what you're seeing
over there, turn literally your gaze
over there to something that you
do like and go in that direction.
'cause as long as you're looking
at the thing you don't like,
that's where you're gonna be going.
And I do wonder if that technique that
you were talking about earlier in the
conversation is really a version of that.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Very possible.
You know, I think it's at the core to
kind of calm the central nervous system,
but in a sense yeah, shifting our focus
calming the central nervous system
in a way that allows us to shift our
focus in a more productive or optimal
direction, I think is what I would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
If you have a hope for your book
and the work that you do with,
with parenting, what would you say?
I mean, apart from obviously
ameliorating suffering, but.
What, what would you say
your mission is with this?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, so with this, my, my primary
mission is to really help folks to
appreciate their own unique context.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Without falling into, you know,
the comparison trap or vibe.
And within that context, be
able to create create a roadmap
for how to be at their best.
And then from there, believe in
the possibility that's out there
for them and for their children.
On the other side of the challenges
that are inevitably gonna come up.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So a lot of it's about imagining
what, what good looks like, perhaps
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well.
Yes.
Creating a map for what good looks like
and then moving intentionally towards,
Rupert Isaacson: and how
do you create that map?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you create that map by really being
intentional by, you know, increasing your
sense of awareness through conversations
with a coach or a therapist, or
journaling, or really taking the time
to sit down and think about, Hmm, what
are the things that make me feel good?
What do I want my life to look like?
How might I be able to create that?
And my book kind of creates a, is is
a catalyst for that kind of a process.
Kind of like a, a playbook, so to speak,
for folks to start thinking about these
things and create that foundation for, for
optimizing their own sense of wellbeing.
And in doing that, helping their, their
children and families to do the same.
Rupert Isaacson: What are
the building blocks of that?
Like, do, is it vision boarding?
Is it visualizations?
Is it guided meditations?
Is it these, you know, these
are sort of known tools.
Yeah.
Or are there others?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, you know, so it's, it's
lots I essentially what we
already have talked about the ma
modulating your stress response.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Dr. Kate Lund:
The visualization is a big piece of it.
We also want folks to be able to see the
things that are going well as opposed to
just the things that are not going well.
The challenges.
So really important.
Ones called the Daily Wins exercise.
And we have folks sit down at the
end of each day, or you can do it
at the beginning of each day and
come up with three to five things
that went well on that given day.
Because human nature.
Takes us pretty readily
to the negative stuff.
Yeah, the negative bias.
What should have happened?
What should we have done?
Why are we not succeed?
You know, that kind of thing.
So this daily wind exercise helps
neutralize our lens and maybe even put
it a little bit towards the positive.
We're not trying to minimize the
challenges because challenge is
real and it's gonna come up every
single day, probably multiple
times for all of us big or small.
And so the Daily winds
exercise is an important piece.
Journaling is a huge piece.
What's happened in our day?
How did we respond to it?
How would we like to respond differently?
Creating that kind of
a roadmap is important.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for the
people like me who just will not journal?
Nope.
I write for a living.
It's like, no, I'm sorry.
I'm not gonna write anymore.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yeah, I got ya.
And, and, right.
It's not, it's not
gonna fit for everybody.
Right.
So then you might, you
Rupert Isaacson: say
plan B from journaling.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So plan B from journaling is reflection.
You can always take time to
reflect, to think, and you can do
that, you know, within yourself.
Or you can do that in conjunction
with you know, a spouse, a partner, a
trusted advisor, a friend and kind of
go back and forth in your reflections.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Kate Lund:
So that would be plan B.
You don't have to write it out.
And then another building block is.
What do you love to do?
You know, what, what is a hobby that
you don't have time for that you might
be able to reintegrate in some way?
Maybe it's something you
love to do in the past.
Maybe it's something you wanna try
that's new, but creating space, and
it could be a teeny, tiny engagement
to start, but to give your sense self
that sense of how that feels to be, you
know, taking a little bit of time out to
paint or draw or whatever it is for you.
You know, there's no one size fits all.
That's an important
building block as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny,
I have a I grew up very much in the
English hunt field, which is fox
hunting, you know, riding two hounds.
Which is, there is nothing
like it in terms of adrenaline.
Now I can't justify doing that
anymore because I can't hassle
a, a fox for my own enjoyment.
So I, I do a.
Simulated version of it where we lay
a scent and try to do it creatively so
that the hounds, you know, have a bit
of trouble working it out and we'll get
someone to lay it across a stretch of
country that might be a bit challenging
to ride over or something like that.
But it's, and even then frequently
I find that I'm not able to do
it for bazillions of reasons.
So I discovered YouTube and I realized
that people were going out hunting
in these areas of England that I
grew up in, which I love and are
still dear to me, even though I live,
you know, hundreds of, sometimes
thousands of miles away from that.
And they put, he, they put
helmet cams on and they go.
And I found, I found people going out
hunting in these areas that I grew up in.
And I watch them, and it's so interesting.
I feel so much better.
It's like, at first I thought,
oh, it's just gonna make me feel
bad because I'm not able to do
it, and I'm not able to go there.
It's like, no, it was the opposite.
And it was so unexpected and,
and such a kind of lovely
use of social media in a, in a funny way.
You know, we're so used to thinking
of social media as a negative, but of
course, you and I would not be having
this conversation, but for social media
people perhaps wouldn't discover your
book, but for social media so, you know,
social media is just another way for
humans to, you know, swap information.
But I was, I was really astonished
by the joy that that came with this.
Do you help people to, to sort
of engage virtually in the things
that give them joy if they can't
access them perhaps in this moment?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Definitely that, that's always an
opportunity depending on, you know,
who the person is or their willingness
to engage in that way, but absolutely.
You know, and it can be as simple
as you know, a virtual meeting,
a virtual coffee meeting with a
friend, or that kind of a thing.
Or there are folks who love to engage in
role-playing games online in communities
of folks that they, they are a part
of, you know, that kind of a thing.
So there's all sorts of opportunity
to do just the type of thing
that you're, you're describing.
So Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The sort of blessings of the
modern age in a funny way.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Well listen, people will need
to know how to find the book.
How to Access You.
I know you do public speaking, I know you
also coach online and virtually, and I'm
sure there's listeners and people watching
who think Yeah, I could use a bit of Kate.
So how do they find you, Dr.
Kate and your book?
Dr. Kate Lund:
Absolutely.
So a great way to do that
is through my website, which
is www kate lund speaks.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Kate lund speaks.com.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Yes, exactly.
And my book is available on the
website as well as on Amazon.
Rupert Isaacson: And
give us the title again.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Step Away.
The Keys to Resilient Parenting.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
Dr. Kate Lund:
And I'm also very active
on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Rupert Isaacson: Great.
So people can find you.
And if they also want to a
bit of personal help, they can
let you help them get some
resilience in their parenting.
A
Dr. Kate Lund:
hundred percent.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Well I, I know that a lot of our
followers will be interested in
that, so thank you so much Dr.
Kate for coming on.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Well, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a lot of fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it really has.
And I'm gonna go and try your your just,
I'm gonna imagine horses say awesome,
not imagine I'm gonna say horses.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: The next time
I'm, I'm, I've got it on my agenda.
I'm gonna say that tomorrow when
I get stressed about something.
'cause I inevitably will.
And I'm gonna see how that
goes for me and I'll take, see
if I can find that baseline.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Perfect.
I love it.
And let me know how it goes.
Rupert Isaacson: I will, I will indeed.
Dr. Kate Lund:
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.
Thank you so
Dr. Kate Lund:
much.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
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