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Pastor Matt Brown, Justin Pardee and Stephanie Keen talk through chapter 14 of Luke and what prayers God does and doesn’t listen to, whether or not Christians are supposed to follow Jewish law and what Jesus means when he says “hate everyone else”.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Well, hey, everybody and welcome to I sorry. I do I try and fake laugh a little bit before. Just get
Stephanie Schaefer:myself funny joke.
Justin Pardee:Oh, I'm trying to I try to just get myself chuckling. That way when it starts off, it feels like we're already having a good time.
Matt Brown:We are. We are already
Stephanie Schaefer:having a
Matt Brown:good Exactly.
Justin Pardee:But Why sound like we're No, I am. I but but like the intro music to the podcast and everything is so great. It is really good. By the time people kick in. Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Kill him. Dude, he made that Yeah.
Matt Brown:We love it.
Justin Pardee:By the time people people are getting loosened up, you know what I'm saying? They can't just be like, hey, everybody. I'm gonna debrief. It's gotta
Matt Brown:be You need to go back and listen to like radio announcers from the eighties.
Justin Pardee:You know what else
Matt Brown:Like this big bean jelly bean coming to you live.
Justin Pardee:Well, hey, everybody and welcome to The Debrief, a weekly q and a podcast from your friends here at Sandals Church. I'm your Jellybean John, Justin Party.
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm your I can't even I'm Stephanie. I'm so glad to be here.
Justin Pardee:Howlins Howlins, Wolf Jack Stephanie.
Stephanie Schaefer:Howlins, Wolf Jack Stephanie. That's what I got. I was gonna go with like Skittles or something to try
Matt Brown:to follow
Stephanie Schaefer:the candy.
Matt Brown:I like vanilla ice. Vanilla ice. Here it
Justin Pardee:is. Here we go. And once again, our professional hero, Pastor Matt Brown.
Matt Brown:Alright. Thank you very much. The professor from Gilligan's Island.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Do you have any sweet radio DJ announcers you wanna drop off?
Matt Brown:Don't have any cool names. Johnny Fever though. Like that one.
Justin Pardee:Johnny Fever.
Matt Brown:From Studio Caribbean, a snack. My favorite show is in the eighties.
Justin Pardee:Johnny Fever. Mhmm. If I if my name was Johnny Fever and before I stepped on the microphone, I'd always want people to Smoooo Johnny Fever. Actually, just with my real name of Justin Party, if you guys could please start doing
Stephanie Schaefer:that for me.
Matt Brown:Smoooo Justin Party. Yeah. It sounds
Justin Pardee:terrible. I'm super excited. Have a lot of great fans of the Debrief Podcast who are continuing to leave some really great reviews and we have now received one hundred and eleven five star reviews and we are still on our streak of five star and five star only reviews. I got two that I'm really excited about. This one came in from Mikey Dutz who told us as he was writing the review, he was craving a Jimmy Changa to which I say, what's up my man?
Stephanie Schaefer:Under spirit animal.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Exactly. And he said, shout out to the production crew that is putting this whole podcast together and to which I say, hear hear, man. Indeed. Thank you for thinking about all our friends behind the scenes.
Justin Pardee:And then another one from missus Margadona who says, I've listened to them all so far and can't wait good for more. And good news for you missus Margadona, here is the next one.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. The wait is over.
Justin Pardee:The wait is over. Alright. Well, let's jump into some q and a here Yeah. From the sermons and all that kind of stuff.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So here on the debrief, we are taking questions from our community groups about the chapters we are walking through in Luke. And so pastor Matt's gonna be answering your questions. Thank you guys so much for sending those in.
Justin Pardee:Oh, hey. We have an update on how to get questions in on the show now.
Stephanie Schaefer:Oh, let's share So
Justin Pardee:we are opening that up. If you wanna get your questions in here on the debrief, just go to sandalssearch.com/thedebrief and click the big red button that says ask a question.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So we can't wait to hear more of your questions.
Justin Pardee:Ask was we're trying to make it obvious.
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. I wouldn't be able to figure that out.
Stephanie Schaefer:No. I think you could. I believe in you.
Matt Brown:Well, yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:I was hoping for a great. I'm glad you believe in me.
Matt Brown:You believe in you. Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Just look
Justin Pardee:at me.
Stephanie Schaefer:I don't care.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. He that was the face of confidence just staring staring back at itself.
Stephanie Schaefer:Alright. Well, let's go and kick off with our first question. Pastor Matt, last week you mentioned something about whether or not we're saved by faith or learn. I think you mentioned you wanted to kind of clarify that.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I was listening to the podcast. My wife and I were hanging out on the pool patio yesterday and we're listening to podcasts, and I feel like the question that you asked, I didn't really listen to it correctly. You were talking about I mean, seem to indicate that are we safe by just faith and faith alone? And my answer actually was no, which is wrong.
Matt Brown:Because and what I meant is what the way I would have liked to have answered that question last week is this way is, what does so the apostle Paul says we're saved by faith alone. So the question is, as we read through Luke, what does Luke think faith looks like? And so for Luke, yes, we're saved by faith. But for Luke, faith has two components to
Justin Pardee:it. Right.
Matt Brown:And the first component is repentance. And so this is why this is so important. Because a person, you know, that's confessing faith in Jesus Christ, they're believing on Jesus Christ. What are they believing in him for? It's not just to go to heaven, it's but it's to save them from their sins.
Matt Brown:And so part of, you know, this this essence of the gospel is one must genuinely not agree with the sins the way yeah. They must agree that they are a sinner, and they must agree that they don't they don't want to be a sinner. They want God to change them. And so repentance, the word metaneo that we talked about last week is completely changing the one the way one thinks, acts, and feels. It's a the person literally is new again, is born again, which is where Jesus says in the gospel of John, unless you are born again, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matt Brown:And so faith according to Luke is this formula, and we're gonna see this all the way through the gospel of Luke, is that there has to be a genuine desire to repent. And that is a part of biblical faith, saving faith. So I just didn't like the way that I answered that. So I don't want people to say, well, Matt Brown says, you're not saved by faith. Yes.
Matt Brown:You know, the book of Hosea says the righteous are saved by faith. And so, you know, that's what the Bible says, and that's important, or the righteous shall live by faith. And we need to we need to know that and do that. But the the question is, not do you believe, but the question is what what does believing mean? Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And I think that's the question that we need to ask because most Americans casually would say, yeah, of course, I'm a believer, I believe in God. And what they mean by that is I'm not Muslim, I'm not an atheist, I'm not agnostic, but I kind of mentally agree with conceptually, because a lot of people don't even know, and we're gonna look at that in some of the questions at the end of today's time where he says count the cost. Yeah. They've never thought about what that means. I mean, it's not enough just to mentally agree that Jesus is God.
Matt Brown:The the devil agrees. Right? He mentally agrees that Jesus is God. I mean, he would agree with that. Is Jesus Christ son of God?
Matt Brown:Yes. Do you believe that's true? Satan would yes. Is Satan saved? No.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Because he doesn't have faith in God. He's not trusted his life in God. He has not repented of his sins and said, you know, Jesus forgive me. I'm trusting in the sacrificial and atoning death of Jesus Christ for the payment of my sins.
Matt Brown:And so that's what I'm trying to say is, if there is not an acknowledgment of sin, then there is not the presence of salvation. And so it's just so important that we understand that, because so many people who claim to be Christians are not Christians, and that's what, you know, Acts, or excuse me, Luke twelve thirteen fourteen. Who is a follower? Who can be saved? Why are these questions coming up?
Matt Brown:Because the the road is narrow and the door is small. So, and that was the question last week. Why would Jesus say that if all you have to do is believe? Because our understanding of just believing isn't exactly what the word pisteo in the Greek means. Trusting in Christ is denying oneself, and we'll get in that today as we as we walk through Luke 14, but I just wanna say that.
Matt Brown:So, you know, just to provide some clarity for that, we are saved by by grace through faith, you know, just like Paul says, but most people wrongly believe, or have a wrong understanding of what faith is. And so faith is acknowledging I'm lost and I need to be found. I'm wrong, Jesus is right. And it's this great exchange of God take my filth and give me your beauty. And if someone's not repented, they're not gonna say that.
Matt Brown:And that's why the Pharisees are gonna end up in hell, because they don't think anything's wrong. They think they're already good. They think because their ethnic connection to Jesus, or their ethnic connection, excuse me, to the Messiah, to Abraham, that they don't have to do anything. And so they actually take pride in their position, and gonna miss out on the kingdom of God. They're gonna miss out on the great banquet because they're rejecting God's servant who's saying this is this is the invitation.
Matt Brown:This is how you come. I love Yeah, that
Justin Pardee:dude. Thanks for clarifying that. Okay. So we have another review question before we jump into Luke chapter 14. This one comes from Jay Rocca, co host of the Fantastic Let's Go Podcast and he wrote in when you were preaching about prayer about a month ago and that set him on just kind of some reading through the bible and he said, I've been thinking a lot about this verse in Proverbs chapter twenty eight nine.
Justin Pardee:Says, God detests the prayers of a person who ignores the law. And here's his question, does this mean God will not honor the prayer of somebody who completely lives their life in a way that conflicts with what God would have for them?
Matt Brown:Yeah. And there's also a passage in Peter where the Apostle Peter says that that if we don't treat our wives with respect and honor that our prayers will be hindered. And the word hindered, the English word actually means blocked. And so, yeah, absolutely. Our our behavior can affect the way that God hears us.
Matt Brown:And so again, I talked about last week, God is not in the business of answering the prayer of liars, he's not in the business of answering the prayer of those who are dishonest, disingenuine. And so if what if one hand you're giving God the middle finger, and I'm not trying to be, you know, I I mean, literally, I think people live this way. With one hand, they they're giving God the middle finger, and with their other hand, right, they're requesting and saying, God God, give me this, give me this, give me this. And so, what I think the proverb is saying is is, right? God's not stupid.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Both hands need to be lifted up to God in humility, asking for what you need, and you can't live this dual life. So you can't pray to the God of the Torah, the law that he's talking about in Proverbs, and then neglect everything that he's asked you to do, but then ask God. And that's what we talked about in today's message for those who got to come to Sandals Church this weekend. You know, God is interested in a two way relationship. And so oftentimes we talk about prayer and we say, you know, God, here's what I want.
Matt Brown:And so the whole sermon this weekend is what does God want from me? Right. And most people have never thought about that. Yeah. Ever ever thought about that.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, that's what I would say to Justin is absolutely your behavior can disqualify you from, you know, God hearing what you say, and that is absolutely true. And so we need to remember that. That's why Jesus says, so let's run through the the prayer. Our father is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us of our debts, as we forgive those who sin against us.
Matt Brown:And so there's there's confession built into the prayer so that we can be heard. All throughout the the book of Psalms, it's the largest book in the Bible, over a 150 chapters in the Bible. Time and time again, you'll hear these words, please listen. Incline your ear to my words. Right.
Matt Brown:Bend your knee down and hear what I have to say. And so when we pray, there needs to be, and again, it's understanding who God is and who I am. I need to remember that in prayer, I'm so blessed that He even cares.
Stephanie Schaefer:That
Matt Brown:God, the God of the universe, the God who makes the earth spin and float, I need to be so overwhelmed with gratefulness that He even cares. I need to remember that in my prayers. And so the person who's like, I don't care what God has to say. I don't care what God has to say, well, it's right and what's wrong, and that's what the law is. So the person who rejects what God says is right and wrong, he's gonna listen to your prayer.
Matt Brown:No. It actually says that your prayer is an abomination to me. It's a stench. Because I mean, why why would you ask the God who's wrote all these things that you don't agree with, that you don't plan on doing? Why would you even engage with him?
Matt Brown:I mean, in in some ways, an atheist has more integrity than a supposed believer who only cries out to God when they want something, and God's just not interested in that relationship long term.
Stephanie Schaefer:He also had a follow-up question in there, kind of a hypothetical situation. What if it's a man who's at rock bottom and finally reaches out to God, such that he may not be a believer yet, but his current circumstances are leading him to reach out desperately? Would God honor that that prayer?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I think we need to remember there's a difference between, you know, people who understand the law and I mean, God has different expectations for me than he does for other people. Why is that? To whom much is given, much is required. The book of James says, those who teach will be judged more strictly.
Matt Brown:We need to remember that, that God has different expectations for different people. And doesn't mean that there's a different category of rights and wrongs or a different set of morals. It's just like, you know, a healthy parent with their children understands that every child is different, and certain things are difficult for some children and certain things are easier. And so you need to treat each child as an individual, and God does the same thing with us. And so really that question has two routes that I could answer.
Matt Brown:The first question is, so a person who hits rock bottom. So when I hear that, I don't know if this is their meaning, what I hear is the person gets it. Okay. I need to change. Will God hear that prayer?
Matt Brown:Absolutely. But you can read it this way. The person who hits rock bottom and has no plans on changing their behavior whatsoever, but wants God to change everything in their life without causing them to change their life? I mean, that's an impossible prayer to answer. God change everything in my circumstances, but don't change anything in my circumstances.
Matt Brown:And so so I think, yeah, absolutely. If the guy has repented or the gals repented and they've hit rock bottom, absolutely Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. James says, wash your hands you sinners and purify yourselves and tell God what you need. And so that's what we need to do. And so even as we connect with God, first John one nine, confess your sins one to another.
Matt Brown:Excuse me. That's James five sixteen. Mhmm. First John one nine is, if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all wickedness. So we have to come to God from a place and from a position of humility and brokenness.
Matt Brown:And when we do that, believer or not, God will hear us. You know, God will hear us. Now, as children of God, those of us who are Christians, I believe God hears us even when we're stupid. Because we just like a parent hears their child with a tantrum. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I believe God, our father hears us when we're ridiculous and selfish and self centered. He's still listening to us because he still can hear Jesus in and through us. And so I think that we have a unique relationship, but we've repented of our sins and placed our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And literally the Bible says we've become a new creation. And so even though we may not be acting like it, the reality is we are new.
Matt Brown:And so God God is my father and he hears my good prayers and he hears my bad ones. And I think you see some of those in the Psalms. You see David acting very immature, you know, God kill them all. I mean, prayed some
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:He prayed some ugly prayers that I've, you know, belong in a, you know, horror movie. Right.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Good stuff. And let's jump into chapter 14 with where we're at this week.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So starting off with verse three, it says, Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in religious law, is it permitted in the law to heal people on a Sabbath day or not? Since we don't have the religious law like the Pharisees did, how should we observe the Sabbath as Christians?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, I would just first say this is I don't know that I would complete completely agree with the statement since we don't have the law. The law is a beautiful thing. We are not in a relationship because we keep the law perfectly. So and and why and why is that?
Matt Brown:No one could. So the purpose of the law, what originally starts off with 10 commandments eventually becomes six twelve commandments. And then, you know, Jewish people have the commentary on the six twelve commandments, which is where you get the ridiculous things like don't touch an elevator that we talked about this week in So it just keeps growing and growing and growing. And so you see this in our culture, right? We need more and more laws.
Matt Brown:Why do we need more and more laws? Because laws don't change people. What they do is they convict people that we can't Right? There's something wrong with our hearts. There's a reason why it's against the law to kill somebody, because there's a desire in many of us to do that.
Matt Brown:That's why we had to make it illegal because it's a problem. And so the purpose of the law is still to teach us what's right and what's wrong. Now, obviously there's some cultural things that we gotta work through and it's an ancient tradition versus a modern tradition. And so we have to work through those things. So, you know, Jesus said, I did not come to abandon the law.
Matt Brown:He says, I've come to fulfill it. And he says, we need to be He says, you know, cursed is the person who discards it. So we need to not discard it. So, and that's why we'll talk about the Sabbath is, And you again, we talked about tithing a couple of weeks ago, tithing was something that was mandated under the law. We're not under the law in terms of we have to do this, but I still think that there's great principles there to live by and to follow.
Matt Brown:And so this is what I would say to Christians who say, I'm not under the law. Say, okay, which are the 10 commandments don't you have to do?
Justin Pardee:Okay. Right.
Matt Brown:Right. Run through those. We have to we have to do all of those because and not have to, but we want to. Mhmm. So have no other gods before me.
Matt Brown:You're not gonna do that one. You know, don't build don't worship anything else besides God. You're not gonna honor your mom and dad. You're not gonna kill, you're gonna lie, you're gonna cheat, you're gonna steal, you're gonna covet your neighbor's wife. I mean, right?
Matt Brown:All of those things are still truth. And so we need to recognize that the law is good, and the principles of the law are all summed up in this one command that Jesus gives. So everything that's in the law, the purpose behind it was this, love the Lord your God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says everything in the law, you're obedient to all of it if you can just do those two things. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Because when we look at the 10 commandments, really they're split in half, how we treat God and how we treat each other. I mean, there's two different issues there. And so specifically, I think your question was to the Sabbath. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so, know, I wanna be very careful. You know, we're really close to Loma Linda, and you know, Seventh day Adventist. And it's not just Adventist, there are some Christians to this day who still believe, you know, that they have to worship on Saturdays. They have to worship on the Sabbath. And so what I would say is, as a Christian, you have to be faithful to whatever you believe the Bible says.
Matt Brown:And so if you believe the Bible says that you absolutely have to worship on Saturdays, you are I think that you're sinning against yourself to not do that. I think the clear teaching of scripture is that the Sabbath is an eternal principle. Six days you shall work, one day you'll rest. And so as Christians, we cannot violate the principle of the Sabbath and work seven days a week and not gather together for worship. The church went through a transition.
Matt Brown:So initially, when the church first started, the apostle Paul, like Jesus, went to synagogue. So he observed the Sabbath. So Friday night at sundown, he didn't do anything. It was family time. He gathered together, got up on Sunday, walked whatever the length is.
Matt Brown:You could only walk like the length of the temple to go to your synagogue. So it was certain amount of distance that you could walk. And I can't remember exactly how long it was, but you could only walk so far, go to your temple and you could walk back. But you couldn't cook, you had to cook the day before. And so Christians initially were all Jews and they all did this.
Matt Brown:And then on Sunday mornings, they had their own service. Because not everybody in the synagogue believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Not everybody in the synagogue believed that Jesus was God. Mhmm. And so the next day they would gather together with Christians.
Matt Brown:And so then something bizarre started happening. At first, all Christians are Jews. And then overwhelmingly, non Jewish people start converting to Christianity. And it creates enormous problems within the synagogue, because not only did the Christians worship with the Jews on Sunday, guess what? They started going to synagogue on Saturday.
Matt Brown:And it created a huge problem. There was incredible racial tension in the church. And so then the question came up, what do people have to do to convert? And it's acts 15, we'll get to that. So what do I have to do?
Matt Brown:And so acts 15 out lies, there's a couple of things. So number one, you know, donate things, you know, dedicated to false idols. So a lot of the grocery stores back in those days were basically cult centers where they sacrificed animals. Eat that meat. Buy your meat at the synagogue, or excuse me, at that temple where they slaughter the meat, or the Jewish place where everything's kosher.
Matt Brown:The next was stay away from sexual immorality, which is huge, because a lot of people say, well, God doesn't really care what I do. Still do that. So here's the three things is, where do you buy your meat? Make sure that you don't buy it at religious cult places. Stay away from sexual immorality.
Matt Brown:And then this really weird bizarre one, don't strangle things or boil them in their blood. It's just like what? And so I think what acts 15 is saying is is these things would just send Jews over the edge. So don't do these things. But there's nothing mentioned in there about the continual meeting together on the Sabbath day.
Matt Brown:And so what happens is Christians start more and more meeting on Sundays only. And it's even referred to in the New Testament as the Lord's day.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:They gathered together on the Lord's day, and it's not the Sabbath day. And so there's this transition. The vast majority, I mean, I don't even know. I'm gonna make up a statistic. 97, 98% of Christians worldwide worship Jesus on Sundays.
Matt Brown:Now we at our church, we have Saturday and Sunday services because we live in a world that doesn't revolve around a religious calendar anymore. And so we need to worship whenever we can. And so we try to do that. So what I would say is there needs to be a day of the week where you honor God by resting from your work, and you engage in religious practice, you connect with God and good service. Those are the things that we're supposed to do.
Matt Brown:So on the Lord's day, we do works of good, and we do religious works. And so, and that's one of the points that Jesus makes when he gets into it with some of the Pharisees. He's like, you guys you guys work every Sabbath day, you violate the Sabbath every Sabbath day, just like we do. Mhmm. Because we work on Sundays.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And so for us, I don't know what you guys do, but Tammy and I gotta shut it down on Friday or on a Thursday, sometimes it's a Monday, and we shut it down. And that's our time. Now we don't gather together for worship on that day because I'm a priest, you know, and I don't mean like I'm an actual like Catholic priest, but my duties are priest like.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:So I spend time with the word reflect and I pray and we do something together as a family or or some kind of good work. But everyone has to look at their calendar every single week and say, it is wrong for me to work seven days a week. When someone says I work seven days a week, three sixty five days a year, that's a sinful statement. You should not do that. And I've had Christians tell me, well, devil never takes a day off, so neither do I.
Matt Brown:And I always ask, so where in the Bible does it say the devil's your example? Right? That's why he's probably why he's so bitter, because he doesn't rest and relax and take a day off. So I hope that answers your question. So I always wanna say this is, don't get into religious arguments with people.
Matt Brown:If people are convinced that they need to worship on Saturdays, man, there's churches where you can do that. Go do that. God bless you. We love you. At Sandals Church, you know, we believe that God wants us to reserve a time to connect and worship with God and a day to rest and Saturday or Sunday, you pick, but the principle applies.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. So Okay. So super quick random Sabbath related question, because Jesus is He's like at a banquet, like at a party this whole time
Matt Brown:Right.
Justin Pardee:And it's on the Sabbath. Here's what I'm wondering, like, is there like delicious hot food out there or we is this like cold cuts?
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's gonna be cold cuts. So and I hope we can come to Israel with me. So yeah, food on Saturday in Israel is kind of depressing. So it just says, so everything's prepared the day before, everything comes out, it's salads, it's pickled meats, pickled fishes.
Matt Brown:It to me, the food is really really gross. So they prepare it all prior to Friday, and then everything is like wrapped up in like a cellophane and and it's brought out. And so everything has to be done by sundown Friday evening. And so you're basically eating like leftovers. I can't stand it.
Matt Brown:So there's really cool American restaurants there and Tammy and I, we violate the Sabbath over there by going there and it's so good. Right. And you can get cheese on your cheeseburger.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Requirement.
Matt Brown:I know that.
Justin Pardee:So later on when Jesus is like saying someday there's gonna be a banquet. It's probably everyone's thinking about hot food at that time because they're
Matt Brown:like It's gonna be delicious.
Justin Pardee:Right now we're at like a yeah.
Matt Brown:Well, and Jesus audiences are starving. So, know, we can go to home hometown buffet any day of the week. People back then, I mean, when Jesus says take care of the poor, and I think you guys are gonna ask me about that. We don't have poor like he had poor. You know, we don't we don't have people in in such desperation like like he did.
Matt Brown:And so we, you know, our poor people in America, many of them are obese. They eat too much. And in Jesus' day, I mean, literally they would be starving. I mean, you would walk by people that if they don't eat today, they're gonna die. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so Jesus is saying, how how can you walk by that and not do something about that? You need to do something about that. And so, you know, in America, we have no idea how blessed we are. We have no idea. We throw away more food than than most of the world eats.
Justin Pardee:Got it. Okay. So in the middle of all this teaching here at this party, Jesus says in verse 11, for those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. So here's my question. How do you humble yourself so that God does not end up humbling you?
Justin Pardee:How do you how do pursue that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. I think it's just proper perspective. And so, know, one of the things that really bothers me, especially when I encounter people and Sandals is a larger church, and people mean this in a good way, but it really makes me sad is they'll say comments like this. Wow, you're such an ordinary guy. And I think in our world, we treat people of status or celebrity.
Matt Brown:They act like their poop doesn't stink, or they're just so awesome. And I just think I don't understand. Both think both Tammy and I both struggle with. We're just Matt and Tammy. We're just trying to, you know, love Jesus, love our church, and God's blessed us.
Matt Brown:And it's just sad to me because I think a lot of religiosity has found its way in the church and pastors walk around like they're just something special. And my philosophy has always been, man Jesus is something special. And I'm just trying to make it like everybody else by the grace of God. I need God's grace just like you do. And so for me, humility comes in just reminding me of where I've been, where I've come from, and not losing the connection, you know, with those roots.
Matt Brown:And, you know, I remember so much being rejected, you know, knocking on doors, I got threatened, I got, you know, a couple times dogs almost took a chunk out of my leg, you know, trying to get people to come to church. You know, people saying, no, I don't wanna come and no, I don't like it. And I try to think about the time when I preached one Sunday and four people showed up, you know, only those days were awful. And so then when you have over 10,000 come to hear you speak, you know, it's easy to go, okay, that's not that big of a deal, because I didn't let the four people break me, and I'm not gonna let the 10,000 people pop my head. Because I'm the same guy who's trying to love Jesus.
Matt Brown:And so I I would just say that humility is an intentional act. You have to choose to remind yourself who you are. And and like I shared in the message, I mean, I I make mistakes. I actually I tell the story about you. I didn't know that it was about you.
Justin Pardee:I know. I heard
Matt Brown:something But about you know, when I I think I spoke, was it at your high school graduation or maybe the year before? Was year before. And so there's thousands of people and Right. You know, it's about the time where where I really began to figure out I can really talk. I'm really good at talking and it went to my head and I just thought I was super awesome and just really got full of myself.
Matt Brown:And And I remember thinking driving to the movie theater where you were at, I remember thinking like, right, the stars are aligned. Some people don't know who Billy Graham is anymore because he's so old, but I'm the next big deal. Like whatever that is. I mean, my chart is I'm on the way and my head was just swelling. And I think it was you, don't I don't know.
Matt Brown:But my perspective is I'm running up the steps still in my suit because I spoke at a high school graduation. I'm in my suit to go to the movies and someone says, and I think you said it was you, hey, that's Matt.
Justin Pardee:What's matter with you?
Matt Brown:And so as I look into the crowd, I don't know it's Justin. As I look into the crowd to see one of my many admirers, I take my attention off the steps and just wipe out. And I had this beautiful gray suit, it was smooth, And I put a hole in the knee and I was all bloodied and I was like, okay, God message received. But, you know, you just have to remember, you know, like at church after church, people say, oh, you're so amazing. Or they say these words, you've changed my life.
Justin Pardee:Oh, wow.
Matt Brown:Well, thank you. But the reality is Jesus changes lives. I just tell people about Jesus. And so I look at myself like the megaphone. The megaphone is nothing special, you know, it's just you press a button and sound comes out and that's what I am.
Matt Brown:And so I try to use my craft. Can I talk? Yeah, I'm a good talker. Maybe I'm a great talker. Here's what I would say.
Matt Brown:If I start thinking I'm the best talker, or I'm the best who's ever lived or everybody needs to listen to me, that's a problem. But I don't want to lie. People like, like when a pretty girl is like, oh, I'm not pretty, shut up, you're pretty. Everybody knows you're pretty and hates you. So just right.
Matt Brown:Say it's But don't let it go to your head. You know, don't go around like, you know, like I'm the prettiest girl ever or everybody's on. Everybody can see what you are. So what I would say is acknowledge the gifts that God's given you. You know, we all have our gifts, and use them for the glory of God, and say, yep, these are the talents that I have and they're real, but, you know, I'm I'm gonna use them.
Matt Brown:And here's the thing is, I don't have every talent. I don't have every business gift. I always crack up when athletes, like millionaire athletes talk about themselves like they're businessmen. Oh, yeah. I'm like, you're you're an athlete.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:Okay? You are not here because of your keen mind. You are here because you have your six eight body, you know, body of a Greek God, right? That every guy wishes he had. And and they talk about themselves, and those guys are broke ten years later
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Because they're idiots. Mhmm. They I mean, not all of them, but they're but they're their gift is shooting a ball, throwing a ball, hitting a ball, or running with a ball. Their gift is not and that's what pride does. Pride makes you think you can do everything.
Matt Brown:And, you know, so why is Sandals Church so big? Is it because of me and my teaching? No. It's because of of the vision that God gave me and the team that he's amassed around me. And it's both of those things.
Matt Brown:And so I can't do it alone. And I can't do it without people. So humility is something that you just remind yourself that, man, we are all saved by grace. And and it it's it's an intentional everyday effort. And I don't think it should be that hard.
Matt Brown:Look at look at yourself. Like, mean, I look at myself and I just think, man, I'm not the husband I wanna be. I'm not the the I almost said wife. I'm not the dad I wanna be. I I wanna be so much better, and I'm not saying beat yourself up every day, but but have some authentic perspective, you know, to the level with which you can be real with yourself, that is the level with which you can have a relationship with God.
Matt Brown:If you can't be deep with yourself, you can never be deep with God. And so Mhmm. Just look at yourself and be honest and say, yeah, okay, I I I'm not perfect. And so it's an intentional everyday effort. And, you know, I mean, think about the play on words, humble versus humiliated.
Matt Brown:I mean, humiliated, right, is like a terrible word, humility is a beautiful word. And so we can choose to experience one of those two words. And so the Jesus says, right, experience humility, humble yourself so that you're not humiliated, which is the analogy in the story. Don't get embarrassed, don't get overwhelmed. I mean, I would love to say that I'm I'm never prideful and I'm always humble, but the truth is from time to time, God has to smack me around and I need I need to be humbled.
Justin Pardee:So you just called this an everyday effort, and there's another thing that you frequently are challenging our church to do every day, which is like read a chapter of God's word every single day. Do you feel like those two things are connected?
Matt Brown:Yeah, absolutely. Because you watch incredible men and women of God blow it, lose it, make mistakes. I mean, like our conversation today, Jesus is at dinner with people who have spent their entire life studying scripture awaiting the Messiah. But in their arrogance, they missed Him. Think about that.
Stephanie Schaefer:I
Matt Brown:mean, right? Your whole life, you're a scientist looking for the next Einstein and here he is E equals MC squared, and you're like, let's kill him. How sad is that? They got so wrapped up in themselves and what they knew, they forgot what they needed, which is a savior. And so a lot of times, you know, I see pastors and even Christians wanna talk about how smart they are, and it's like, man, have you read the Bible?
Matt Brown:It says, God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. I'm on team idiot. I'm not the smartest tool in the shed. I'm not supposed to be the dullest, but I'm not the smartest. And so absolutely read scriptures.
Matt Brown:I can't tell you how many stories in scripture where the underlying principle is. Like the story of Haman, where he plots and he tries to murder all the Jews. Yeah. That whole story is about the consequences of pride. So in the book of Esther, people say, God's God's not specifically talked about in that book.
Matt Brown:But the thing God hates is. And so Haman in his pride plots the death of Esther and Mordecai and all of the Jews and ultimately builds a gallow. And if you don't know what a gallow is, it's an ancient way of hanging people. He builds this thing for Mordecai, and ultimately he's hung on it on himself.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:And the term pride cometh before a fall. And that's the case, man. If you if you are full of yourself, you're gonna fall into yourself and it's bad news.
Justin Pardee:Wow. Okay. Alright. So our next question comes from a level six Blitzkrieg solo mid. It's good old Jesus from Jake's group.
Justin Pardee:And that he's been leveling up, man. He keeps firing all these questions to the debrief. They're so great.
Matt Brown:Thank you, Appreciate it.
Justin Pardee:He's leveling up dude. Jesus. Okay. So, passages, he writes in Luke chapter 14 in verses 13 through 14 and then twenty one and twenty four. Jesus talks about inviting the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.
Justin Pardee:And he basically says like, man Jesus' heart is obviously for people who are hurting. How can we as Christians, individuals and then together as a church have that heart of Jesus?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. So, there's a couple things that are at play here. So, the law that we talked about says that you cannot have a physical disfiguration and serve in the temple. And so a lot of people find that, and I know your first your favorite verse is misshapen testicle.
Matt Brown:You can't even have a misshapen testicle.
Justin Pardee:Deuteronomy twenty three one, look it up. Yeah.
Matt Brown:It's like, it's that's every crazy person's favorite verse, which is that's why it's But, you know, the guy with the misshapen testicle, which is hilarious. How'd you like to have been the priest who had to check? Know, gotta check everybody's testicles to make sure, you know, they can serve. And so so so why is that? And and I've talked to you about why that verse is, because what child would parents want to serve God?
Matt Brown:If you have a misshapen testicle, what does that maybe mean? You can't produce offspring. So you're gonna donate the kid to God that can't promote and and reproduce heirs for your family. And so it's this whole idea of get give God your best. And so that got misinterpreted over time that God doesn't care about, you know, little people.
Matt Brown:I'm not sure what the correct term is, little people.
Justin Pardee:Sure. Yeah.
Matt Brown:You know, dwarfs. People with stature challenge, you know, they're not allowed to serve in the temple, and it's not because God doesn't care about them or love them, it's that he doesn't want the people getting away with with with in the ancient world of dedicating something to God that they don't want themselves. And so when you read Malachi, he talks about stop bringing the sick goat, the lame goat, the crippled goat. Stop sacrificing those things to me, because God wants our very best. And so it got misinterpreted that those people aren't valued by God.
Matt Brown:And that's not what he meant at all. What he meant was, I want you to love me with your very best. Does he doesn't mean I don't love your children with challenges. He loves them, but I want, you know, right? The priesthood is not a hospital to to bring disfigured people to.
Matt Brown:That's not its purpose. Its purpose was for the very very best and brightest of the children of God to serve him. And that got misconstrued as God didn't care about them. And so what Jesus is saying is, no no no no. I've always loved them.
Matt Brown:I've always cared for them. They matter to me. And and that's why you see, I mean, what's the what's the thing that Jesus does everywhere he goes? He heals the cripple. He heals the lame.
Matt Brown:He touches the blind because God loves those people deeply. And as Christians, you know, I I think we live in a culture in America where we deeply care for you know, we have we have laws for handicapped people to be able to access restrooms and and and to get into even into our church, we spend a great deal of money giving them the the parking spaces that are the very closest to help them. Why? Because in our culture, we value them. In the ancient culture, they were they were not valued.
Matt Brown:And so what I would say is, I don't know that this means that we need to reach out to people with handicap or disabilities. What it means is, we need to reach out to people who are considered outcast in our culture and our society. Specifically, we need to look at the people that are outside of, you know, our group. And what I shared within the messages is we need to not just care about our people, but we need to care about God's people. And so that's what Jesus means here is, don't just invite your friends.
Matt Brown:Don't just invite your family. Don't just invite rich people, but invite people that no one else has invited. Look for people who are being missed. And we had this really powerful moment at the the 11:45 service. And it was and it didn't happen to any of the other services, because I didn't feel the Holy Spirit leading me to say it.
Matt Brown:But man, towards the end of the message, I just was overwhelmed with this voice and the voice was saying, and I believe it was Holy Spirit that someone is saying, you know, here we are talking about all these unnoticed, uncool people, rejected people, and someone in the audience is saying, this is me and no one even cares. And I was just like, what do I do with this? And so I just stopped the message. And I just said, I feel like God's telling me that someone in this room, and I don't know who this is for, and I said, I don't normally do this, but someone right now is saying that no one notices you, and I want you to know that God notices you and hears you right now. Here's what's amazing.
Matt Brown:About 10 people came up to me after the service and said, that's me.
Justin Pardee:It
Matt Brown:wasn't just one. It was several people. That was me. That was me. And it was men, it was women, you know, you saw that guy with the buttons come up to me, was in tears.
Matt Brown:He says that that's me. I'm not noticed. I'm not seen. And he's crying. I said, you're seen buddy, we love you.
Matt Brown:And so we need to go out of our way, not just to pray for our husbands, our wives, our friends, our family members, because we do that. Right? Our heart's heart is to see the the people that we love saved. But God's heart is to see lost people who wanna be found saved. And so while we're we're we're completely focused on the people that matter to us, we're missing out on the people that matter to God.
Matt Brown:And like I said, your neighbor, your friend, whomever. And I mean, literally our students that are listening to this, know, you could be at UCR or Cal Baptist or in high school, and the person right next to you is literally writing in their notes while the teacher's talking, do I even matter? And all it takes is for you to listen to God and say, hey, man, I just wanted to get to know you and and let you know God cares about you. That's not weird. Just say, man, I just want you to know God cares about you.
Matt Brown:Well, why do you know that? Because he cares about everybody. Well, why do you know that? Because I have a relationship with Jesus. It's an opportunity to share the gospel.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So the people that listen to the debrief right now, most of the folks are like people who are really bought into what we're doing here at Sandals Church division, our groups, and all those kinds of things. Man, just hearing that, you know, at least 10 people at our 11:45 service felt like they were unnoticed. Can you just really quickly talk to the people who are listening to the debrief right now? Yeah.
Justin Pardee:About what should what kind of
Matt Brown:attitude should we be If bringing to the you're a committed person, so so what committed people say is, oh, we need to reach out to the homeless. We need to reach out. We need to reach out. We need to reach out. And the reality is we can't even reach the people who come to us.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So homeless people, needy people, broken people, everybody that you think you need to go out in the streets and find in the illustration, go out into the hedges and the highways, they're here.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Show up. We had
Matt Brown:a homeless guy, Shane, walk here 10 miles.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:10 miles. Who noticed him? Oh, we gotta do homeless ministry. Well, homeless ministry is here. He needs help.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And every single week, you know, I meet with people that are struggling, they're hurting, that are super super needy. And the church is so focused in reaching people who have no desire to get right with God, they're not reaching the people that want to get right with God, that want prayer, that wanna change, that wanna be different. And the reality is man, we we need to minister to them, and that's why, you know, be a greeter. Greeters are the first line of defense.
Matt Brown:They see people who's crying, who's upset, who's jolted. Like you get to know these people, and it's amazing. Chris, I can't show up to service ten minutes early and be a greeter. Really?
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Be a greeter. Be in the parking lot. You know, work with kids. You know, our our people in flip flops, pipeline, front side, they hear broken stories. You know, people hurting, kids that are abused, not loved.
Matt Brown:They're here, they're in our church. And and we need to reach out and minister to them. And so what I would say is, man, soon as we get as soon as we get a handle on that, and the reality is we don't have a handle on that, we're completely overwhelmed Totally. With needs, hurts, wants, brokenness. As soon as we handle that, man, let's have a great let's have a great ministry to the community.
Matt Brown:But the truth is, we're struggling to keep up with what God is sending us. And so we need to take care of the people that God has sent to us first.
Stephanie Schaefer:Totally. Staying on the topic kind of even reaching out to the lost and the people who God who want to be found. This question comes in from Tyler and he asks, when is it apparent that someone is not worth pursuing for God because they're a lost person who doesn't want to be found? And what does not pursuing that anymore look like?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So the first thing that I would say, if you're going to lead people to Christ, you have to become a good listener. You have to learn to listen, and I've made this mistake over and over again. Some of the most painful experiences that my wife and I Tammy have gone through is when I don't believe I did a good job listening to what someone was saying. And the problem is we want people to be saved so badly, that we're not We're gonna listen to what they're saying with our heart and not with our ears.
Matt Brown:And we need to learn to listen to our ears. And so when someone says, I have no interest in going to church. I don't believe in God, leave me alone. So I know there was a gal at our church who was inviting her boss to to church every week, and they actually asked her, please stop inviting us. What do you need to do?
Matt Brown:You need to honor that request. You need to honor that and move on. People can say no to Jesus, and we need to give them permission to say no. God has given us a choice, and people can say no. The problem is many of us, like maybe we're in a situation where, you know, our parents are not Christians, or our spouse is not a Christian, or the person we're dating is not a Christian.
Matt Brown:We want them to be saved so bad, we get single-minded focus, and and all of our evangelistic efforts and all of our prayers focus on this person. And what happens is we ignore the people around us. And that's that's why this issue is so devastating. If you're trying to save a a person you think is drowning, and they don't think that they're drowning, and they're fighting you off, while at the same time, there's three or four people around you that are are taking their last breath, going under crying out for help Mhmm. And you're not reaching those people, you love the people you love more than the people God loves, and you have to let that person go.
Matt Brown:You have to you have to let them go. So so what does that look like? What I would say is this man. Hey, man. I'm sorry.
Matt Brown:I've offended you. I've invited you to church. I've tried to talk with you about God. Or maybe they wanna keep talking about God, but all they wanna do is argue. Like for example, I go to LA Fitness and there's this really really tall Muslim guy.
Matt Brown:I mean, he's like six eight, and he just wants to argue with me all the time about why the Quran is right and the Bible is wrong. And he finds me no matter where I am or what machine I'm at. Mhmm. And then I talked to the guy like like 10 times, and I realized he doesn't wanna convert. He just wants to argue, and he's a waste of my time.
Matt Brown:And so I asked him, I said, don't have a desire to know Christ. And he said, no. And he what he's trying to do is convert me.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And I said, then we we need to not talk anymore. You know? And and so here's what I said is, if you ever find you're ever find you're in a place in your life where you want to know about Jesus, and you really wanna know, I'm here. And if I'm not here, you can find me at Sandals Church, you know. You can call the church, and and we could try to figure out a way.
Matt Brown:But until that time, I said, I don't wanna talk to you anymore about Islam. I don't wanna talk to you anymore about, you know, the Quran. I I seriously. And so he he didn't back off, right, a couple times. And I said, look, man, I'm asking for space.
Matt Brown:We're done. And so what's interesting is, you know, now he'll give me like a, hey, and that and that's it. We're friendly, and that's fine. I've I've said the door is open if you're ever ready to open, you know, your heart to Jesus. But if you're not, why do I wanna argue for?
Matt Brown:What what I mean, what's the point of that? And and again, you talked about pride. For a lot of people, it's just an issue of pride. They wanna prove they're smarter than their brother, their mom, their dad. They just wanna literally ram it down their throats and nobody gets saved that way.
Matt Brown:I mean, think about if you if you think you can lead somebody to Jesus through argument, let me ask you this question. Can somebody lead you to not believe in Jesus by arguing? Because I can tell you, you are never going to convince me that Jesus Christ is not the son of God through argument. It's not gonna happen. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So if I know that about myself, why would I try to argue other people? And so this is what I think it looks like is, you just say, you know what? I'm sorry I've invited you to church too many times. I want you to know the door is always open. Love you.
Matt Brown:And you drop it. You respect their boundaries. Why? Because God respects their boundaries. He does.
Matt Brown:And so you move on to something else, and you try to find places to connect. I mean, and you say, God, show me people in my life that do wanna receive Christ. God, I wanna lead somebody to Christ. I think every Christian should want to at some point in their life, lead somebody to Jesus. Yeah.
Matt Brown:And so, God send me that person. I wanna be there for that person. And you're gonna find man, people people want Jesus. That's why Sandals Church is growing, is because people are inviting people, and you know what they're saying? Yeah, I'll go.
Matt Brown:I'll go. You know, I met so many people this weekend who came to church for the first time on Easter weekend, and they're like, I had no idea. We love it here because somebody invited them. And if somebody hadn't invited them, they would never ever know.
Justin Pardee:Right. Totally. Okay. So, verse 26, Jesus goes, if you wanna be my disciple, you must by comparison hate everyone else, your father and your mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters. Yes, even your own life.
Justin Pardee:Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So this is like a little harsh. What what does Jesus mean here? How can we? He's saying to hate everyone else in comparison to him, but he also calls us to love everyone.
Matt Brown:Right. And so this is just one of those unfortunate places where, you know, the ancient language doesn't work at all in modern English. And so you find the same thing with who who married Leah and Rachel? My mind just went blank. Jacob.
Matt Brown:Jacob. Jacob. So, right? The bible says Who is Jacob loved Rachel, or yeah, loved Rachel and hated Leah. That's not what it means.
Matt Brown:He didn't hate her. What it means is he loved Rachel more.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:So the same thing is with Jacob and Esau. Jacob I love, but Esau I hated. And so, I I don't know. I I'd love to talk to a Bible scholar who sat on one of these committees that continues to translate the words that way. Because what Jesus means is not that you should literally hate your parents.
Matt Brown:What he means is this, you have to love me abundantly far more than anyone else in your life. And so here's the relationships where I'm going to feel competition. You're going to struggle loving me more than your parents. You're going to struggle loving me more than your wife, more than your brothers, more than your sisters, more than your kids. And so those are those are the those are the most important relationships we have in life.
Matt Brown:And Jesus says, you have to love me infinitely more. And so the only way they can communicate that idea is with the words love and hate, and that's the problem. But it doesn't actually mean that you are to hate your parents. The idea is that in comparison, it looks like hate. But even that's not right.
Matt Brown:He's just saying the gap between how loyal you are to me and how much you love me versus everybody else has to be infinitely large. Because that that's how much he's loved us. I mean, How do how do we respond to the cross? Think about the Good Friday service. How do we respond to that?
Matt Brown:To what he did for us, to how he suffered for us? I mean, I love my wife, she did not die on the cross for me. She did not. Her love for me doesn't compare at all to Christ's love for me. It's not even in the same category.
Matt Brown:So how do I respond to Christ's love in comparison to my love for my wife, whom I love more than any human being on the face of the earth, right? It can't compare. My loyalty has to be to Jesus. And so back to you're dating a non Christian guy. You don't really love Jesus if you're doing that.
Matt Brown:You have to stop, because you have to be so in love with Jesus, that it should be relatively easy to say no to a person that you are dating who does not love Jesus. Mhmm. And vice versa. If you are married to a person who doesn't love Jesus, it should be relatively easy for you to stay married to that person because you do love Jesus. And he has said
Justin Pardee:Oh, man. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Right? Mhmm. You gotta stay married. Yep. And so, lot of Christians get mixed up.
Matt Brown:Well, God would want me to be happy. No. God wants you to love him more than even your own happiness, which it goes on to say, right? You must love me and even hate yourself in comparison. God doesn't want you to hate yourself.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:He wants you to hate yourself in comparison to your love for him. He wants you to be so sold out loyal to him that you were willing to do whatever it takes. And so the disciples did that. And so you gotta remember, so two things are happening here. So you gotta put on your thinking cap here, because two things are happening.
Matt Brown:So Luke is not writing these events like they just happened. Who's Luke writing to? He's writing to Christians in Rome who are suffering. They're going through difficulties. And he's saying, look, this is par for the course.
Matt Brown:This is what you signed up for. Jesus loved God more than anything and what happened? He died. Yeah. He died.
Matt Brown:He humbled himself on the cross. So you need to be ready for whatever's gonna take place. Your love and your loyalty to Jesus has to be greater than anything else. So my first responsibility, right, is I am a Christian. I'm a follower of Christ.
Matt Brown:That's my first responsibility. My first relationship and loyalty is to him. You know, the second is to my family and our church, then my denomination, right? I'm a Baptist, you know, then I'm an American and it just keeps going, know, further and further out my loyalties and my commitments because of how I define myself. Now the gap between Jesus and everything else has to be massive.
Matt Brown:And so we need to know that. So no, Jesus is not asking you to hate anything. And I mean, even when we say things like, well, I hate sin, that gets funky because it turns to anger and then ultimately we're sinful ourselves. Mhmm. It's just it's impossible to translate exactly what he means in our language.
Matt Brown:And so, the way they do that is to compare love and hate. That presents the best example of the kind of gap he's meaning. But the purpose of the text is to measure the gap not to promote hate. Was I clear?
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Totally Man, one of the things I'm sitting here thinking about is like my wife and you know, even some extent my little kids and my family and friends Mhmm. Probably feel most loved by me in the times where I am most committed to like putting God first in my life over my own wants and desires. It's kind of cool how it all works out that way.
Matt Brown:Right. Because I mean, so think about it as a husband. How does Paul admonish us to love our wives?
Stephanie Schaefer:As
Matt Brown:Christ loved the church. And so, you know, any person who doesn't want their spouse to be fully devoted to God doesn't understand the benefits of that love. Because that love never fails, always forgives. Right? First Corinthians thirteen one through five, that love is what everybody wants.
Matt Brown:And so few experience because we fail to understand how much, you know, God needs to be first in our lives. And for most of us, he's like fourth, fifth, sixth. Mhmm. Right? He's in our top 10.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And we feel good about that. But Jesus is like, I don't wanna be top 10.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:You know? So I I think that's a great verse that trips up a lot of people because the meaning the meaning is missed because of the language that's used. Nose deep. Good. Meaning is missed because of the language that was used.
Matt Brown:Super humble. That's beautiful.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Alright. So Jesus goes on then in verse 27, it says, if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple. So then what are ways that we can choose to quote carry our own cross like Jesus says here?
Matt Brown:Right. And so again, so that's just in a continuation of unless you hate your mother and father. Mhmm. And just so you know, I mean, some people they have to do this. You know, I think about, you know, one of the young men in our church who's grown up grown up in The Middle East and his his family, I'm not gonna say the religious denomination, but it's non Christian.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And every single week he lives with the fear of his parents cutting him off and abandoning him, because he's rejected the religion of his family origin. And that he is choosing Jesus. And this is what's amazing. He loves his father.
Matt Brown:He loves him. He loves his mother, but he is choosing Jesus, and it has real consequences. And so Jesus goes on to say, unless you're willing to pick up your cross and follow me, I mean, you've gotta be willing to die to yourself. So we have to die to our sexual desires. We have to die to our relational desires.
Matt Brown:We have to die to our financial desires. We have to die to everything in our life and say, the most important thing in my life is following you Jesus. And if that means I die, so be it. Because what does Jesus say? What does a man gain if he if he inherits a whole world, but forfeits his soul?
Matt Brown:And then he goes on to say, anyone who loses their life for my sake will find it, but anyone who tries to keep their life will lose it. And so the mistake is not the person who dies for Jesus. The mistake is the person who dies for themself. That's the mistake. And we all we're all gonna die.
Matt Brown:So it's just Jesus trying to continue. And this is why this is so important. And, you know, I know this is a bit confusing for people, but in an attempt to make the gospel so simple, what we're doing is we're condemning many people to hell. They need to count the cost. They need to understand what Jesus is saying is, God is interested in an eternal love relationship with you forever.
Matt Brown:Forever. And that means God has put you first, and that means people that are in relationship with him will put him first. And and that's what it means. I mean, look at the first commandments, thou shalt have no other gods before me. God God is not shy in stating what he wants.
Matt Brown:So think about a marriage. So let's say Tammy and I get married, it comes to the point, you know, do you love Tammy? You know, and she's no one else. I'll be like, no, she'll be in my top 10 girls that I relate to. I mean, she's a fool, right, if she says yes.
Matt Brown:It's tragic. And so a lot of us think that God should be that kind of fool. Well, he's in my top five. God's like, look, man, you're number one to me and I wanna be number one to you. And and there is no other way that I will relate to you.
Matt Brown:And that's important. So, you know, what's important is we're not We need to understand that we're not saved by works. We don't earn our salvation. However, we need to understand the depths of commitment that Christ is calling to. And this is not how we are saved, but this is what a saved person looks like.
Matt Brown:A saved person puts God number one in their life. A saved person has counted the cost. A saved person in comparison to how they feel about Jesus hates their own family.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So, let's close out chapter 14 and I'm excited. Verse 34, we are back to food. Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? This kind of feels like, where's this coming from out of it just feels a little bit out there.
Justin Pardee:What is Jesus talking about as he's closing out this teaching?
Matt Brown:Right. So the purpose of the church is to, you know, salt does two things in the ancient world. Number one, it flavors and number two, it preserves. And so, you know, if salt doesn't do either of those two things, you're basically throwing dirt on your food. And so which tastes gross, you know, sometimes you ever barbecue and you drop a hot dog in the ground, you try to act like it doesn't matter, you throw it on the grill and you take a bite later and it's crunchy, it's gross.
Matt Brown:I've done that, I'm confessing. You probably have done that. Have you done that? A little bit. Yeah, a little bit.
Matt Brown:You can't do it a little bit either do or you don't.
Stephanie Schaefer:It's all or nothing.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So anyways We know you. So I've done that. So it's right dirt on a hot dog or sand on the beach. I know you hate eating at the beach, yeah, it's gross.
Matt Brown:So that's what salt would be like, right? Salt is just gonna be crunchy if it's lost its usefulness. So the purpose of the church is to make a difference in preserving and saving the world. So here's what Jesus is saying. If we're not any different, we're not gonna help anybody.
Matt Brown:Okay. So if my life isn't any different, if I am not ultimately committed to Jesus, sold out for Jesus, I'm not gonna save any of my friends. I'm not gonna save any of my family members. I'm not gonna make a difference. I am useless to them.
Matt Brown:I've I've lost meaning. I mean, and Jesus says, you're not even worthy. Does he say of the of the poop pile?
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Yeah. The manure. He says, yeah. You guys think I'm making this up. He says he says, it has no use whether for soil or for the manure pile.
Matt Brown:I love that.
Justin Pardee:Not even good to Yeah. Be
Matt Brown:you're only good to be thrown away. He says, he who has ears to hear, let him hear. And so here's the thing is, if your Christian life isn't changing anyone else, you have to ask yourself, has it changed you? If you're not affecting anyone else, if you're not paying attention to the people in the hedges, the highways, the lame, the crippled, the blind, if you're not noticing people who need Jesus, have you noticed Jesus? And so we need to look at this, we need to examine ourselves.
Matt Brown:We're called to be salt. And so Luke 14 is about missing the banquet. You know, so he talks about a bunch of things, know, be, you know, don't take the Sabbath day off, don't miss the banquet. And then what kind of party throwers we should be. We should be people focused on inviting people who don't get invited, who haven't heard the good news, and we gotta do this.
Matt Brown:And then he kind of shifts in, you know, towards the end to this whole concept of count the cost. Count the cost. And, you know, that's why people always ask me, and I think we've talked about this, why don't you give an invitation every week? Because people have to have an opportune opportunity to count the cost.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Because when I say yes to Jesus, it means I'm going to be saying no to a lot of things. And so people need to understand what that means. And in the New Testament era, when he's preaching to Jews, they had a pretty good idea of what they had to say no to, to say yes to Jesus. The problem is people come in our church, they don't have any idea of what they have to say no to before they say yes to Jesus. And we don't wanna do bait and switch on people.
Matt Brown:We need to make sure that we're teaching g we're teaching enough about Jesus, so they have enough information about Jesus, so they can count the cost. And think about the illustrations that he uses. Right? If a king goes out to war, what's the first thing he's gonna do? He's gonna count his soldiers, and he's gonna count the other guy's soldiers.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And so what does he say? If the other guy has 20,000 soldiers and he has 10,000 soldiers, what's he gonna do? We're gonna make peace, buddy. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Because he's gonna lose. I mean, doesn't have enough. And so Jesus is saying, before you before you commit your life to me, you need to know what I'm asking for. And here's what I'm asking for. I'm asking you to hate everyone and everything else, including yourself in comparison to how much you love me.
Matt Brown:Because that's the kind of love I've given you. And and you got to admit, I mean, out of the 12 disciples, he got 11 of them to do this. Mhmm. 11 of them loved Jesus more than anything else. So they heard this teaching, they counted the cost.
Matt Brown:And, you know, James and John, the sons of Zebedee, in the gospels, it says, when they heard Jesus's call, listen to these words, they left their boats, they walked away from their nets and their father. They left dad out fishing for Jesus. How do you think that went?
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:Yeah. That that wasn't a good There's conversation at no coming back. Yeah. They left their dad for Jesus. And so we need to remember that, you know, so many of us we talked about this, was it last week where we think Jesus came to bring peace and he says, no, I came to divide.
Matt Brown:Because in families, some are gonna choose Jesus and some are not. And God's okay with that, and we need to be okay with that as well. I mean, we want everybody to be saved, just like I believe God wants everybody to be saved. But there's only one way to receive God's grace. There's only one path for forgiveness for your sins, and that is the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed for you on the cross.
Matt Brown:That's the only way.
Justin Pardee:Good stuff.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Thank you so much. And just thank you everybody again for submitting questions. We love getting these in front of pastor Matt and beginning to debrief all this together. Like Justin said at beginning of the podcast, you can now submit questions at sandalschurch.com /debrief.
Stephanie Schaefer:So keep sending those in. We love getting your questions here on the podcast.
Justin Pardee:Totally. And if you are still listening to the show all the way this deep to the end, I'm gonna let you know we are looking for somebody to kinda join the team of that's producing the debrief here in a volunteer role as kind of our content producer. So somebody that can help us out as we're getting more and more questions in during the week. Somebody can help us organize those, put those together, listen in, help us put together show notes that would be useful as pastor Matt is sharing all these examples all across the bible. We would love for each of the episodes of the podcast to have links to the different scriptures that we are putting together and mentioning and covering here.
Justin Pardee:The reality is we just don't have time to make that happen. So if you are at all interested in joining the team that would help make that happen and take on this role of content producer or even want to talk a little bit more about what that would look like, do me a favor, send me an email, prdsandalschurch dot com and I'd love to talk to you about that role and see if you can help us make the debrief better as we continue to move forward. But now, is it's time what we've all been waiting for to get past Matt's thoughts on an inspirational quote. Stephanie, are you ready?
Stephanie Schaefer:This every time.
Matt Brown:I do dread it. You don't have to think.
Justin Pardee:You don't you don't love inspiration? Mhmm. Oh, man.
Matt Brown:As I love Jesus, I hate these.
Justin Pardee:We we've got some inspiration for you.
Stephanie Schaefer:Well, how about this one? Whatever you decide to do, be sure it makes you happy.
Matt Brown:Yeah. That's the stupidest advice of all time. Right? Because true happiness is found in holiness. Once we pursue holiness, we'll find happiness.
Matt Brown:When we pursue happiness, we're gonna find hell. And so that's the thing. Those roads lead to two different places. Holiness leads to happiness, happiness leads to hell, and you gotta know that. So, you know, God wants you to experience joy, God wants you to experience happiness, but it is found in a relationship with him and observing his teachings and laws.
Matt Brown:That's why so many people are miserable because as a society, we've abandoned God's law.
Justin Pardee:Well, whatever you decide to do, tell your friends about the debrief.
Matt Brown:Yes, please.
Stephanie Schaefer:That one's okay.