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The iGaming Leader Podcast with Leo Judkins uncovers the human side of the iGaming industry's most successful leaders. Join us as we explore the untold stories, challenges, and triumphs of the executives shaping one of the world's most dynamic sectors.
Each week, we dive deep into conversations with C-suite leaders, founders, and directors from global betting firms and innovative startups. Our guests share their authentic journey to the top, revealing pivotal career moments, leadership philosophies, and personal strategies for sustainable success in this high-pressure industry.
More than just another business podcast, we focus on the crucial intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Discover how industry leaders maintain peak performance while managing stress, work-life integration, and team dynamics in an industry that never sleeps.
Whether you're an aspiring leader, current executive, or passionate about the iGaming sector, each 30-minute episode delivers actionable insights to help you thrive in this fast-paced environment.
Subscribe now to join a community of high-achieving iGaming professionals committed to making this industry not just successful, but sustainable for its leaders.
Emma Blaylock: No one's going to remember everything at the top of their head and have the answers for everything, that's not realistic.
It's okay to be vulnerable around that, right? And honest around that. And then, as a team, you grow. So having that support structure where it feels safe to be able to say: we don't know the answer, we are looking into it. That's a great point.
That imposter syndrome we all talk about, I think it's always there, but you, you become more confident in what you can do and confident in where your weaknesses are. And as you build teams around you, you look for people that have the skills that you don't have or excel in those skills.
Whether it's being a developer or looking at M&A at Sony, or launching Kindle in the UK, it's always been about technology at the heart of it and the impact that that can have on society.
And that not being afraid to kind of disrupt. Launching E-reading at a time when publishers were wary, authors were wary, consumers they didn't know they wanted it necessarily.
If you don't push yourself. If you don't try things that [00:01:00] aren't necessarily in your comfort zone, you're not going to grow in the same way.
So that kind of safety around failing and learning from those failures, it's really important because none of us will do everything perfectly and right the first time. It's about having a culture that embraces failure, but then quickly learns from it.
Leo: Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast, where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and as an ex iGaming director term performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain 3, 6, 5, flutter, and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance.
In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in.
Leo Judkins: [00:02:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. I am here with Emma and Emma's helped, Sony Stream the first Blockbuster movie, directly to TV before, before Netflix was even a thing. She's launched Kindle in the UK when reading wasn't a thing and publishers were sceptical.
She, spent six years in an optical computing startup, and she's now the CEO of pretty technical, computer science degree, MBA from Kellogg LED strategy at Deloitte M&A at Sony, But today won't be about her CV
because underneath all of that is, and I quote, somebody else, is a kind, smart, funny, and incredible humble leader who's learned the hard lessons of leadership.
And today we'll talk about the human side of your leadership. Emma, welcome to the welcome to the podcast.
Emma Blaylock: that's really nice. It's the best time I'm hearing that. No, it's lovely. Thank you. And it's really nice to hear, um, people talk about me in that way. I mean, that's what I try to be as a leader. [00:03:00] you know, and so I love that someone has said that.
Leo Judkins: uh, Emma, you've had a super fascinating trajectory, what's the, the thread that connects all of it? Who's, who's Emma underneath all of those different roles?
Emma Blaylock: It's a great question. Um, and I think, you know, with any of these journeys, quite typically where you end up is not necessarily where you think you would end up when you start. Um, but there is absolutely kind of common threads going through that. One, I've always been super passionate about technology, obviously started, did a computer science degree and I wanted to build web applications and that's what I did.
Working in the UK and in San Francisco for the very first kind of.com boom, um, being right in the middle of it. Uh, and I loved that. Um, but as time went on in my career, I wanted to kind of move more into the business side of technology That was becoming my passion and thinking about, well, how does.
Technology help businesses thrive. How does technology help customers of businesses thrive? And, and how can it make a difference? Um, [00:04:00] and that has woven through everything that I've done. So whether it's being a developer or being looking at, uh, M&A at Sony, or launching Kindle in the UK, you know, those things, it's always been about technology at the heart of it and the impact that that can have on society.
Yeah, so that, that's, you know, where my core passion has been. And I think the other part there is working in, in an industry and companies with initiatives that are truly exciting and innovative and disruptive. I love that, that's what drives me is the innovation, the, you know, making things better, the change that comes, with that.
And yeah, uh, that's, that's the common thread.
Leo Judkins: that. You
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: with, um, with Jeff Bezos during, during the Kindle UK launch, uh, was really motivational. You were saying you reported to the Daily on progress and, and weeks would go by really quietly. You wouldn't really hear anything
Emma Blaylock: Yes.
Leo Judkins: but then something would happen
Emma Blaylock: that's true.
Leo Judkins: and you would get like this super [00:05:00] detailed question or pushback or issue back from him showing that he's really invested in that
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: launch.
Right.
Emma Blaylock: I mean, that was incredibly motivating, right? We were, so Kindle had launched in the US already, and we were the next market. So, you know, it was very strategic for the company. But we were geographically remote from that, you know, from the US team in Seattle. And exactly as you said, there was a lot of, um, attention around the launch and then.
It was these daily reports around, you know, how many, how many titles are we selling, what titles are available, what not, out of the best, the top hundred books. And, and you know, and it would record, we'd record it daily. And Amazon, as you probably know, is a very analytical, data driven company, and decisions are made from the data.
So we would produce these reports, and they go off and you, you typically wouldn't get that much feedback until suddenly there would be this super detailed question. And I think for me, what that showed me is not only [00:06:00] like it's motivational because you realise, you know, how important this is to the business and that they do care and they, they're looking at the performance and, and what's happening.
But I think also. Just, um, just his ability to dive in. Like he's doing that across everything across Amazon and that, that is truly quite a special mind to be able to do that. To be able to dive in, understand very quickly what's going on and ask that really pertinent question, a different way of looking at it as well.
It's not, you know, something that you may be completely aware of, um, or thinking about. And he's, he was just exceptional at that. And that for me was a real, um, kind of role model basically in terms of the type of leadership. Uh, that I would like to, like to be, and, you know, talking to people, it is not just even asking the challenging questions.
It's the, the small things, the thank yous, the congratulations on doing this, and, you know, not [00:07:00] just celebrating the big wins, but all those smaller achievements in between that ultimately drive those bigger successes.
Leo Judkins: What do you think the biggest thing is that you took from that? Would it be those small moments? Would it be the, the, the attention
Emma Blaylock: Would say to think actually one of the other things is not being afraid to disrupt. What was a really big, market for them in the UK, which was the selling of physical books, right? That that business was doing amazingly, and the UK still is, right?
And that not being afraid to kind of disrupt Launching E-reading at a time when publishers were wary, authors were wary, consumers had, had not really been doing it, so they didn't know they wanted it necessarily, and what the benefits were, you know, that, to me was really powerful. And then seeing the success of it, and not only the success of it, but also how it, it bolstered the physical reading.
Like, it, it didn't, it didn't destroy that business. It actually made it stronger. Um, so having [00:08:00] that belief in an idea and the success of that idea. And how that would drive, you know, when there's lots of people saying, oh, I'm, I'm not sure about that. You know, I, it's not going to feel like a physical book. No one's going to read it, or it's going to destroy the sales of this and, you know, why are you doing that?
So that belief in an idea and, and ultimately, you know, it was amazingly successful, but
Leo Judkins: and do you feel that, that level of scrutiny, you know, that, that, like really diving into the detail, did that ever feel
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: pressure? Because you talk about it from a motivational aspect,
Emma Blaylock: definitely. Like you feel you have to, you know, you've gotta be on your toes. Right? And, and it's, there were definitely times when we'd be asked a question, and you're like, oh, what's happened there? Like, we need to find out quickly.
Leo Judkins: Yes.
Emma Blaylock: we can't take long too, and so yeah, for sure it, it does feel pressure.
That can be hard, but it can also drive you, the key thing there is, when you are in that leading that kind of team and, um, is, [00:09:00] is shaping it in that way so it drives, so, you know, so the team feels supported that there will be things that don't go perfectly.
There will be things where. You don't know the answer. And it's, it's okay to say and find out that answer, but ultimately that drives to a better result. And I think that's really important. Like, no one's perfect. No one's going to remember everything at the top of their head and have the answers for everything.
It's just that's not realistic. It's okay to be vulnerable around that. Right. And honest around that. And then, as a team, you grow. So having that support structure where it feels safe to, to be able to say, uh, you know, honestly, um, you know, we don't know the answer. We, we are looking into it.
That's a great point.
Leo Judkins: you have always been like that? You know, because that's something that I see with so many, I mean, throughout my career I've seen it with people that we've had on the podcast here. I, it's, um, it's an area that a lot of people learn throughout their career, right?
Emma Blaylock: Yeah, yeah.
Leo Judkins: maybe they into a wall and they make the mistake [00:10:00] of, of, you know, maybe selling something
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: that don't necessarily know the answer.
And they try to pretend and then get into a lot of trouble. And then
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: comes from a fear of failure, I don't know. But, it seems to be that always the
Emma Blaylock: I think
Leo Judkins: people are the ones that are happy to kind of say, I don't know. I, I need to find it out. Has it been always like that for you, or did you learn that through
Emma Blaylock: I remember when I joined Deloitte one thinking everyone that was more senior as me knew the answer to everything. And that's a learning. When you realise that's not the case, and you see them do something that, that exposes that.
And it's like, oh, okay. That's interesting. And then also, you know, what's even more powerful is when that's exposed, and they embrace it, and you know, honest about it. And I was really lucky early on to have and right. I've worked for lots of different types of managers, you know, and that's good because you wanna.
Understand what works best for you, and you need to work with ones that you work well with. The ones that you know, [00:11:00] you, you, you don't work well with, honestly. Um, but yeah, I was lucky early on to see that and in, in management consulting it's quite, it can be quite cutthroat environment. You are working at pace.
You are ex, you are in front of clients. And I remember literally within the first kind of month that I was there, I was asked to run a workshop with the with a whole host of people from the client, um, around their technology transition from the old system to the new system. And I was petrified about that.
Like, how am I trusted with that, you know? As a 21-year-old who's literally been in the company a month and straight, fresh out of university. , You know, you do learn from, from those kinds of situations, and you learn that. You know, you're not expected to be perfect. And it's, it's, it's okay not to be perfect.
And actually no one is perfect, and it's good to, be very open and kind of vulnerable around that. So, yeah. So it is definitely not something, um, that, [00:12:00] that I've always been. Absolutely. I not, uh, it's something I learned, but I, I was just very lucky in that kind of early stage of my career to see, see people acting in that way and see people that didn't, and understand what kind of leader and person I wanted to be.
Yeah,
Leo Judkins: hard to make that transition like just be vulnerable and go, I, I don't actually don't know yet
Emma Blaylock: yeah, it is, yeah, very hard. And I think, you know, when I was young and starting out in my career, I was. I was quite shy. Um, I was super techie and, and into my coding. But being, like I say, that idea of being out there and leading a workshop was so out of my comfort zone.
I'd much rather have been there writing some lines of code and, um, you know, and delivering on that. Right. And I'd been very happy doing that for, um, the first few years. But it comes over time, doesn't it? You get, you become more confident and also more confident in your abilities.
That imposter syndrome we all talk about, is there, so I think it's always [00:13:00] there, but you, you become more confident in what you can do and, and confident in where you, your weaknesses are. And as you build teams around you, you know, you look for people that. Have the skills that you don't have, or excel in those skills.
And, and I just think for me, that definitely took time. I think for a lot of people that does take time, you know, to understand and, and it's not, it's not a comfortable thing. It, it can be quite hard understanding that. Um, but it's part of maturing as well, isn't it?
Leo Judkins: Absolutely. Hey, and, and, uh, just to go a little bit deeper into that, in terms of your leadership style, uh, Emma. So what do you do when you see that in others, you know, that kind of, not wanting to open up or not wanting to admit failure or not feeling confident enough to say, I don't know.
What do you do when you see that around you and perhaps in your teams and colleagues and peers and
Emma Blaylock: the first thing is to lead by example, right? And show. Do that yourself. So be open around where you don't know the answer or where you, you need help or where [00:14:00] you know, you, you, you are struggling to do something, and you need support, right? Because if that can be seen, just like when I was talking about when I was younger in my career and I saw people doing that, I think that's the most powerful thing.
And then I think it's around, um, giving that support, like building those relationships with your team and your people. That have that kind of open and honest dialogue. You know, I would hope that the people, in my team would come to me if they were worried about anything and, and feel safe doing that.
And likewise, you know, I will expose kind of my vulnerabilities and, and do that too. So, um, I think it is very much around creating that environment to have that kind of safe dialogue, to feel supported and to feel that it's not only okay to recognise that, but that's how you grow as a person. I talk quite a lot about, um, sort of leaning in, to opportunities that you don't feel comfortable about.
You know, I still talk to myself and tell myself to do that when those things come [00:15:00] up. Um, but I think that's really important as well, because that's sort of no regrets. Like, if you don't push yourself. If you don't try things that aren't necessarily in your comfort zone, me, at me at 21 writing my code, but actually then doing, you know, leading a workshop.
You don't, you, you're not going to grow in the same way. You know, it's kind of encouraging that and providing opportunities for people to, to grow and shine, but feel safe when you know it. They may not deliver everything perfectly. So, so that kind of safety around failing and learning from those failures, it's really important because none of us will do everything perfectly and Right.
First time. You know, it's about having a culture that embraces failure, but then quickly learns from it.
Leo Judkins: I often think about this as, um, T Junction, you know, almost like a, a fork in the road where you make the decision to actually lead like that. You lead by example, by being vulnerable,
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: open. What would've happened on the if you [00:16:00] would've made the other decision, if you would've like, hidden away in your room, you know,
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: coding not being, not leading that workshop, not going out in the open, not
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: people how staying introverted, like how, how would, where would that have led you?
Emma Blaylock: I'm so happy that I made those decisions and, and didn't say, no, I'm not doing it. You know, actually leapt in and, and gave it a go and tried, because I think I would be in a situation where I'd be doing something very similar, but I'd be unfulfilled.
And I think it's not only, not only is that important for me personally to push myself and try, I, I do that in my professional career. I do that in my personal life as well, skydiving and things like that. It's not necessarily something that I would do normally, but I will do it and absolutely do it. And I loved it when I, when I did that, but, um, I think that's really important.
But I also, you know, that's really important for me as a role model for my family as well. I've got two kids, um, a daughter who's 15 and a son who's 12. [00:17:00] And I want them to see me being that, that type of person, that person that, you know, embraces new things and gives things a try and grows from doing that.
Leo Judkins: so when you think about your kids, um, you know, as they grow older and uh, they get kids, what, what are, what do you think the big things are that they're going to take away from the way that you lead or both your personal life and your professional life?
Emma Blaylock: you know, uh, that sort of balancing work and, and family. Um. And, and how you do that. And I definitely wouldn't say I'm perfect at that. I'm not
is so hard. No, it's so hard. But, but they've experienced that firsthand, and they see it all the time. You know, me and my husband have big jobs.
We have big jobs and um, and that does mean that we travel, and we are away from home sometimes, or we have a super long day. Or it can be really stressful at times, and it's hard to right to shut that off. And when [00:18:00] you have dinner with the kids, then you know, to switch over to, sort of putting that behind.
And I think, seeing that and seeing us struggle with that as, as much as seeing when that works well is really important for them because both of them wanna do big things in their lives. Um, you know, different career paths and things like that, but it's. It's not all about that. There will be things that come in and challenge that in your personal life, and how do you balance that?
There's no perfect answer. And I, they, they would vouch for the fact there's no perfect answer on what they've seen. So I think, I think that's the first thing. And I think, again, you know, that what I was just saying there, like, just challenge yourself. Try new things, like push yourself, uh, because you'll never know what you're capable of if you don't.
Right. And, and I really try and encourage them with that from when they were very small with the different classes they would try, to know when they're picking, uh, my daughter's, picking what a level to do and thinking about her career and, you [00:19:00] know, and, trying to open her mind to the various things that she could do and what that could mean.
So, I think that's, you know, really important. And then I think the last thing is, what I've learned through my career is, for me, what's most important about where I work are the people and the and how interesting the work is itself. Like, if you can get those two things, you will fly.
And so talking to them both about, when they're talking about what jobs they want to do, what kind of companies they wanna work in and things like that, you know, it is, so I've been talking to them so much about, think about when you go in for that interview, think about the culture of that work environment.
Is that somewhere where you think you would really enjoy working? Uh, is the person that's going to manage you, is that someone that you would like, like, think about that as well as them interviewing you and asking you all these questions? Because if you can work with great people and work, do interest work that you're passionate about, you know, you like, you'll be fulfilled.
Leo Judkins: it's such a hard [00:20:00] thing at that age though, because they're, they've gotta make decisions about their careers based on like absolutely no knowledge whatsoever or ex or job
Emma Blaylock: yeah,
Leo Judkins: And I mean, don't you think that a lot of our careers, uh, certainly true for me, it sounds like it's very true for you as, as well are shaped through our experiences, right?
The, the, the managers that we run and definitely be like, or the know, The failures that we've had and, uh, you know, the, the things that may maybe we're even ashamed of that we've, that we've done where you go,
Do that again. And of course as parents, we try to protect our kids from that, but maybe we shouldn't.
Right. Maybe that's actually what forms them and shapes them. So,
Emma Blaylock: I totally agree with you. I think, your experiences absolutely shape you. And like we were talking about when I was at Deloitte, I had some great managers that I really loved working with. There's also some people there as there are in lots of big businesses that are not the type of manager I wanna be a super cutthroat, you know, or have big [00:21:00] egos or whatever.
And, and you see that, and it really sticks with you and. You learn almost more from that experience than you do from the positives because it makes the positive experiences shine even brighter. Right? Um, so you are right. I think we can guide, we can share advice, but ultimately they have to experience it and, and their experience, you know, will be unique to them, right?
It, it's never, you're never going to be able to guide them to the best that you can through everything that they're going to do. They're going to come across things and, and that they won't expect. And they need to be resilient and able to adapt to that in the way that's right for them. What's right for me isn't right for them either.
And it takes time, but like understanding what drives you, what's makes you passionate, what you admire in people, what you don't admire in people, you know, all of that is unique to you, right.
Leo Judkins: Love I would start talking about kids here
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: go back to you, your Amazon, Amazon journey. So, so you left there, you went
Emma Blaylock: I did.
Leo Judkins: all [00:22:00] the resources and
Emma Blaylock: I know.
Leo Judkins: to something that's, six years, I think. Right? And,
Emma Blaylock: Very different. Yeah, yeah,
Leo Judkins: like during that six years, have you ever had this thought of, oh my God, what have I done here?
Emma Blaylock: yeah, for sure. For sure. So what drove that decision? There are a couple of things, right? One, um, I loved, absolutely loved and thrived from the entrepreneurial aspect of launching Kindle in the UK.
Leo Judkins: Makes sense.
Emma Blaylock: and then in subsequent markets, right? We had local teams that we supported them. And it got to a point where that business was, um, thriving but becoming, you know, an established business.
And I was already, my brain was like, what's next? I need, I need another challenge. Right. At that time, and I'd also worked at Sony in M&A, and we'd invested in a lot of startups and always been quite intrigued and excited when I was talking to founders at those businesses and thinking about what that would be like.
And that's [00:23:00] what drove that kind of leap professionally was actually, I do want to go and work in a startup. I wanna be there from the beginning. I was the second person that joined that startup after the founder, who was like the brains behind the technology, and he needed someone with the business side.
And when I say business side, it literally was everything from, uh, you know, investment to building partnerships, to hiring to, um, managing shareholders. Running the finance 'cause we didn't, uh, you know, have a finance manager to do marketing. Like, literally everything around it is where I started. And I just, I just wanted to experience that.
And I think also there was a safety net absolutely around launching Kindle. Amazon's a big company. It doesn't mean that they weren't had pulled the plug if it hadn't gone well, but they're a big company with resources. We weren't looking at cashflow, we were looking at, you know, the financial success of the business.
So I wanted to experience that, and it's, it was always something I wanted to dip my toe in. Um, you know, at the same time, [00:24:00] personally, I just had my second child. And I was looking, we'd with my first child, she was quite poorly when she was two. Um, uh, we didn't know what that was, and I was trying to juggle that with launching Kindle.
She, it ended up that she was Celiac, you know, luckily that's something that we can easily manage but at the time it was really, really scary, and she was really unwell I was trying to manage that with being there for her and my husband, being there for her as well.
Whilst doing everything. We were in a high, really high pressure environment, and then also being pregnant second. So we'd made a decision that, uh, we wanted to move back to Ipswich, which is where I grew up. I fa I've got a big family, um, support system here, which was really, really helpful and, and valuable.
And, so we moved back here and. You know, that kind of drove my part of my decision to leave Amazon as well. One, wanting a new challenge, but also two, just geographically. I, I couldn't commute into the office any more. [00:25:00] and the entrepreneurship, you know, that was a really interesting 'cause it gave me the opportunity to go back to work part-time, actually, because they couldn't afford a full-time business person at that point.
And that worked perfectly for me, right. With my young family. I wanted to do part-time. I could throw myself into something that super interesting, and, and really experience that. But it, yeah, it just worked for us in every, every sense at that, that point in our lives. And as that business grew, my, my commitment to the business in terms of the time I could spend offf on it, was able to grow as the kids went to school and things like that.
So it was a really great experience. I, I love the technology is super innovative, super disruptive. Um, you know, uh, it was literally taking. The processing of data that everyone was using Intel chips for to a completely different level. Um, it's, it's still going strong, but yeah, we were pioneers in that space, so it was really fascinating kind of being in that [00:26:00] environment at that time.
And, yeah, and I really enjoyed kind of growing with the company. It was, it's not smooth, not a journey like that is never smooth, especially in, you know, having to manage that cash constantly fundraising because it was a pre-revenue business. So managing shareholders, we had a lot of shareholders, so managing all of them and making sure they're all happy was, you know, took a lot of time and focus and, and then bringing in money to make sure the business could grow, hiring people and doing that all at the right time.
Trying to just juggle all those. Bulls and let the founder and the technical team focus on what they were doing, which is building this technology, for the very first time, you know, was, was a real challenge. And there were definitely points right before COVID, for example, we were trying to do a fundraise.
Um, the technology hit a block, and so we had to pause on the fundraise because we couldn't, we, we had to kind of work out how we were going to get around [00:27:00] this technical challenge. And then COVID hit, and the lab shut down. And it was like, what, how, how do we manage this? You know, really uncertain period. We had to make cut cutbacks with the team, which was really hard.
Um, we did get some support from the government in terms of, the furlough scheme in the UK, uh, which helped a bit, but it, it was really difficult because. We, we literally hit this thing at the worst time. You know, luckily, ultimately the technical team that were amazing managed to work out how to get around that, and we could build the company back up.
But that was the point where I even stepped back from the company and I went and joined, um, rocker and then ultimately pretty technical in gaming because we had to bring it right back down just to the few core technical people who could really focus on that challenge. So sometimes, you know, you have to make these really difficult decisions.
And it's hard, it's hard making those decisions at the [00:28:00] time. Um, So you're balancing all of those things, right. To try and do what's best. Best for the business, best for the shareholders, but also you're thinking about the team, not just the team that, in that case, were, were having to leave us, but also the team that was staying.
And how do you keep them motivated and how do you keep, you know, make sure they feel secure and in what they're doing. Right. That's, it's really hard. It's very hard.
Leo Judkins: it's actually the, the stuff that's often not spoken enough about is, uh, went with redundancies. How important it is to take care of the people that stay, right. Because just staying
Leo Judkins: It's, it's going to be about, okay, what's now the next level, how are we now going to achieve the next phase? But also on the other side of that, as the, as the business founder or somebody that manages the cash flow, it's obvious that it needs to be done right. So, when you think back through that, when you think back through kind of funding rounds and, uh, cashflow management [00:29:00] runway, what would've been something that you wish you knew as a maybe as a salaried employee back then, you know, at Amazon that
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: learned since through those experiences?
Emma Blaylock: I think you really appreciate how hard decisions like that are. I, you know, I do remember at Deloitte, like a redundancy round, um, at one point and, you know, you see a lot of really good colleagues go, and you're questioning like, why is that happening?
Especially because it wasn't that long later that the market picked up, and suddenly they're hiring again. And you're like, well,
Leo Judkins: The point.
Emma Blaylock: why, why is that right? You just can't appreciate it when you don't, you don't have that exposure, visibility to it. And now. I can absolutely understand kind of what had happened there and, and why, why they made the decisions that they did, probably.
You know, one, One, you don't know how quickly things will pick up. If they pick up that, how quickly they will pick up and in what way, right? Because [00:30:00] it's not necessarily the same team that you have today that's going to deliver against what's coming either.
And again, I think the importance of that timing, making the decision at the right time, which ultimately saves the business or, you know, and protects the jobs around the those that are staying and, yeah, supports the shareholders as well that own, you know, have invested in that company and, and protecting their interest.
You know, like balancing all of that is. It's really hard.
Leo Judkins: wanna talk a little bit about, uh, your role at Pregnant Technical and, um, talking about this story of, a big client that was, at the time, transformational for the business. So it's someone that you, it's a business that you wanna, it's, it's it's business that you want to keep, right? But,
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: some issues with cashflow, some issues with where
Emma Blaylock: Yeah,
Leo Judkins: made promises and, and how that then affects the business. Can you, can you talk a little bit through that specific situation,
Emma Blaylock: yeah. Yeah.
Leo Judkins: what's, what happened from a business [00:31:00] rationale point of view, but also for you emotionally from a human, human experience side as you went through that?
Emma Blaylock: it is a real learning point as well when you go through that kind of experience. I think, it's one thing to reflect on it, knowing what, you know, it's very different when you're in the middle of it, and you don't know what's going to happen. Right. And I think that's really important to remember.
Um, when I joined pretty technical, I came in as CEO, we had a big, big project with a big client, um, bespoke build, building this, you know, amazing system for them. A lot of people that we'd hired to do that. And it was a few months down the line and everything was going well, right, with the so I came in as CEO, like thinking, this is great.
We've got this great client, you know, there are these opportunities. This is awesome. This is how I'm going to grow the company. This is how you're going to focus. The, the sort of the expectation joining, right. Just as I joined. So I'd accepted, um, and it was very rosy like that. And then when I actually started, [00:32:00] the signs were starting to be there, but they were very small at that point, and there was, oh, the payments are all late for this month.
Um, okay. And so, you know, you contact the client, and they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's coming, it's coming. Sorry. Just something happening on our end, you know? And, and I'm looking at that new to the relationship, uh, new to the company and thinking, okay, well they have delivered and paid, you know, these last few months.
Let's give the, you know, given the, the benefit of the doubt. And some money came in, but not all of it. And then, you know, and then the, the conversation becomes like, you ask, you ask more questions, and you try and find out, and it's difficult because they weren't open about what was happening.
Their business was facing some financial difficulties and things like that, but they didn't share that. And it's, it's really hard because, you know, when you make that decision to say, enough's enough, you know, because we are paying people, we are paying a big team to do this, and if we're not being [00:33:00] paid, you know, how do you manage that?
Right? It's very hard thinking about what's the time to make that big decision, because once you make it, you can't go back, right? And, and you're trying to suss out the relationship and suss out, um, really what's happening, what's going on there? Is this something that's going to resolve, is it not?
And you know, and you are asking questions, you're not always getting the answers. You know, it was really, really hard and ultimately had to make the call. That, you know, this wasn't going to happen. We had to stop the project. We had to make some redundancies around that, like a really talented team, which was really, really hard to do.
But we couldn't keep them all on without that project supporting, bringing in the revenue. We were a very small company and there wasn't enough. You tried to redeploy people, and we did a bit of that, but you can't do that with everyone. And we had to say goodbye to some really talented colleagues, which was, you know, really hard.
And at the time, you know, I was still questioning is this the right thing to do or should we, is the money going to show up next [00:34:00] week? And then, you know, we've done this and, it's, it's really difficult. It was a really difficult time and very different to what I thought I was coming in to do as well.
I was really conscious about what we talked about earlier, about the team that was left and how, how we keep them motivated and, um, focused like having had that big, that big setback, and we stopped the work with the client, and the client ultimately went out of business.
So it was the right decision? You don't know that at the time until you look back in hindsight. Right. And then you, you, you do question you, you also think, well, should I have done that earlier? Should I have done that a bit earlier? Or, or, you know, or not.
Right. It, it's, you just do the best of, of what you think at the time.
Leo Judkins: as they say, the buck stops with you. Right? And so
Emma Blaylock: It does.
Leo Judkins: mean, how do you deal with that? Because yes, in
Emma Blaylock: Yeah,
Leo Judkins: you should have done it earlier, maybe later. Maybe it was the perfect time. The problem is when you're in the middle of it, it's [00:35:00] just chaos and there is no right
Emma Blaylock: yeah. I mean, look, it can be quite lonely, right? In that role. I am, I feel I'm really lucky at pretty technical because the two founders in particular, are super supportive and very involved, and I can talk to them at any time, so about this kind of decision. And we, um, we go through it, you know, and they're intimately involved in, in the business and what it does.
So I didn't feel like I was doing it on my own. Um, I was able to kind of, yeah, just talk through it with them. I have now, we've built a, um, a really great. Senior C team as well. And again, you know, we went through something quite recently, also difficult, where we had, uh, an investor in the company who, didn't pay the last kind of investment.
Tran not anything to do with us 'cause we hit all our targets, but they were unable to. And again, the team seeing that C-Suite [00:36:00] team, well one, it was around at what point do I share that information. Um, and then seeing that C-Suite team really pull together to help the company transition through, through that period, was, was amazing to see.
And I think, um, that really helped me, right. Not feeling alone, not feeling like you, we've got a really smart team of individuals. The founders are really smart and involved and collectively. We can make, make, what we think is the right decision for the company at the time. And I think, um, yeah, that helps.
That helps a lot. Um, and if you don't have that in the company, you know, then what would I have done? I think you look for support systems outside, right? Those networks and of, of safe spaces where you can share kind of what's going on and get, get, you know, feedback or advice or just having someone listen to you.
You know, [00:37:00] listen to what you're going through. And even if they can't advise. 'Cause sometimes when you're not in it, it's, it's hard to know. But I think, um, it's really important to try and make sure you have got that support system around you. Um, because yeah, it can, it's very tough at points.
Leo Judkins: it's you, right?
And, and there are certain things that you can't discuss yet, uh, that have to
Emma Blaylock: yeah,
Leo Judkins: you. And that, so that, that loneliness, I think is, is one of the hardest bits that any, any founder or CEO has to deal with, you know, despite having a really
Emma Blaylock: you have to remember, you know, like you may need support, but it may not be the right time. You've gotta think about them and what's important for them and is, you know, is bringing them in. You are, you are going to then like occupy their headspace with this issue and is that the right thing for the business?
Or is it better that they're focusing on what they're doing? Right now. And ultimately that benefits the business. So you, you, you know, you're constantly thinking about what's right for, for, [00:38:00] for the business as a whole, rather than individually what you need. You, and that's where it, that's where it's hard, right?
Leo Judkins: exactly. Let's talk about the opposite side of that. What are some of the things that have made you, what are some of the moments, maybe not just with pretty technical, but what are some of the moments that made you proudest in your career? Some of the, you know, the aspects that you maybe
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: where you thought, well, this is really like, I'll remember this forever.
Emma Blaylock: I'm going to give you a, um, a kind of leadership example, you know, rather than a specific delivery example, um, to start with. And that really I think is around when you see people grow, when you give them the opportunity to grow, and you see them grow on under your leadership.
You know, when you see that person come in as a project manager or as a developer and see them just grow through the business, up to, director of, of product or, um, you know, or tech lead or whatever, and, and seeing, [00:39:00] seeing them thrive, that always is one of the most proudest things. Like when you, when you see that happen and you, you feel that you've influenced and helped to make that happen.
Yeah. So that, that for me, like really drives me when I see that. I just, I just love to see, see that, that personal development, one of the, um, things that we talked about at Amazon and, you know, I've, I feel like we try to do, so it's not just me, it's me and the C team is, um, you know, when you're bringing in new talent, think about how you raise the bar.
So, and at Amazon, what that specifically meant is when you're building a team, and you're recruiting from outside, if that person is not better than 50% of your team, don't hire them. Right? Because you're constantly going to make your team better. And that's really hard to do 'cause you think your team's great.
You're like, how can they be better than 50% of my awesome team? But ultimately, you know, by bringing in people that have different experiences, um, [00:40:00] different perspectives, different ways of thinking, you know, a great example in the C team, two people that came in fairly recently, Sarah and Chris.
Sarah's come in with her operator background, right? We don't, we didn't have anyone in the business. We are a B2B business. We didn't have anyone with that kind of direct operator experience. And seeing that in practice is so valuable. Like that perspective that she brings again, with Chris, right? He's come from managing big projects, um, with Oracle implementations and for all different types of clients and regulated environments and non-regulated environments.
And just seeing that kind of, that process that he goes through and that structure he brings and how he manages client relationships around that and communications. He's fantastic at it, and you see how that builds to your already amazing core team that we had in place. So yeah, the for me, those are kind of the proudest moments there.
There's always things you, you could say, launching [00:41:00] Kindle in the UK right? That's one of the things I've done, and I am really proud of that and how successful that was. But for me, that's eclipsed by, by those moments of, of seeing people thrive and teams thrive, right?
Leo Judkins: love that. That's so amazing, Emma. I really love that because yeah, from the outside, that's probably what everybody would say. Yeah, of course. It's going to be Kindle, of course. It's going to be the know, the streaming, the before streaming was a thing, but it's usually not, right? It's usually the people.
So, you talked about that you admire leaders that are inspirational and kind. Creative and disruptive, strategic, but also good humans. You've seen, obviously, seen both kinds, right? The, the ones that
Really embody that, but also the ones that really don't.
I've spoken with people around you. Uh, you are the first one, right? You're the people. You're the person that embodies that. I, I don't,
Emma Blaylock: I hope so.
Leo Judkins: I think that's what I hear anyway, and I, but I do think that's, the things that we've spoken about before, the cash flow, the stress, the, you know, in previous role and concurrent role that the family life, right?[00:42:00]
Anything really can put so much pressure on you that you kind of start swerving a little bit towards that latter person, right? The person that doesn't necessarily
embody that because of all the because your head's just not in the right place.
So how do you deal with that? that pressure?
Emma Blaylock: you do need to be able to have some coping mechanisms around that. 'Cause it, of course, those situations happen, right? And you're stressed and for me, stepping away, first of all, I like to run, I do that a lot, especially when I'm stressed that the running goes up.
But again, it's having that quiet space and that headspace to think and, and just take a step back. I also like to talk things through, uh, with people. So, you know, we talked a bit earlier about Andy and Andre, the founders and how great and supportive they are, and I feel like I can go to them and talk to them and a kind of space away from what's happening.
But even when that. When that's not [00:43:00] possible, then it's people outside, right? So I have a very really supportive husband that we can chat about these things and friendship groups that are completely outside the industry, um, but are always there to talk with. And I think that's really key. Yeah, again, it's unique for everyone, isn't it?
And it's finding out what works for you, but it is super important to step away. I find it very difficult to put that face on.
Leo Judkins: Tell it straight away, yeah?
Emma Blaylock: It, you know, so again, like being, and I think it's important that I am honest like that.
Maybe I'm too, not too honest sometimes, but I am very open. They do know what, what I'm saying is what they guess, you know, that's, that's actually the reality. So, Yeah, it's just kind of working through what works for you. And I think, again, that's not something that, you know, immediately, it takes time.
What I don't want to do is, you know, lose it in front of everyone and, um, and all of that. So just think about your mental wellbeing and, the kind of the tips and techniques that work for [00:44:00] you. For me, for me, it's talking to others outside and exercise and I guess family time too, right?
Family time, because, you know, the kids don't wanna not going to be interested, so sometimes talking about something completely different, what they've done at school that day, you know, what drama was happening in English or something like that, you know, it just takes, takes you away from it a little bit.
So, do you have signs, Emma, things that way you notice, so you were saying like, people that know you well, they can see it on you straight away, but what, what about yourself? Do you have signs where you go, oh, I need to take a step back here? It's, it's just all a little bit too much.
Emma Blaylock: Yeah, I guess it's, it's like a feeling. It could be like, there is an urge quite often you keyboard warriors, right? If, if something has blown up like that to just like, and I, I will step away from doing that.
I won't type, what I want to type at that particular point and move away and come back. so it's, it's that, I guess, yeah, just being able to like recognise [00:45:00] the signs that. the kind of agitation and just, just taking a step back, taking a, a, you know, taking the dog for a walk, doing that kind of stuff just to, just get some breathing space and, and head space and time to kind of think about it.
Leo Judkins: That's really good because a lot of people don't just send that email. Right. They'll just power through it and they'll
Emma Blaylock: Yeah,
Leo Judkins: it's short term relief for a lot of long-term problems. Uh
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: I wanna,
Emma Blaylock: It's so easy to do in this time though, isn't it? Like, and, and I think written communication, like we rely on it so heavily, the text, the WhatsApps, the slack messages, and you can even, you know, you can write something that's not intended in that way and can be completely read the wrong way.
And, we need to remember the, the importance and the power of having those. Verbal conversations and picking up on the social cues, and whether that's on a video call like we are doing or in person at a conference and things like that, or just picking up the phone and talking to, you know, it can make such a difference.
Leo Judkins: I wanna talk [00:46:00] a little bit about female leadership as well. You are a, you are a woman leading a tech company in iGaming, but of course, you know, as a, as a techie yourself, you've always been in an environment where, which is heavily male dominated. you know, you've got a, a leadership team with 50% female leadership.
Emma Blaylock: yeah. Yeah. Really happy about that. Proud of it though.
Leo Judkins: because of quota. Right. Just because of quality.
What I'd love to talk about, we spoke about this a little bit before, is, uh, kind of the unwritten rules that, uh, you had to, that you see that maybe men don't see that the, the, the challenges that you had to face that, uh. Men perhaps are oblivious to
Emma Blaylock: yeah, absolutely. I'm really passionate about this topic as us, I'm really happy that you've brought it up. I think, you know, set context, what we were talking about when I did my computer science degree at Nottingham, it was one woman to every 10 men. And, you know, and that's kind of been the, the sort of backdrop in my career, like you say in tech, in [00:47:00] iGaming, in, you know, all of these fields that I've been in.
It, it is heavily male dominated. For me, and this is, this is a way that I've grown as well and learned to adapt. But especially at the start, we talked a bit about how, you know, I was quieter, I was a bit shyer as, as well, a bit more introvert at the beginning. And it was about getting your voice heard, and how you do that.
It, you know, especially when you're in group settings and, discussing, oh, it could be anything. Discussing an idea, discussing an approach to solving a problem. so one, me personally getting the confidence to be able to say my views and that they were, you know, and, and how important it is to do that.
but then around the audience that's there, recognising that there's different types of people in this group and, and giving those people the opportunity to share their ideas and, and encouraging it. Like, I'm much better at it now, but at the time, you know, I found that really hard and in some groups.
[00:48:00] Because people just aren't aware of it. it didn't happen, right? So, so it comes from both ways, I think. Me pushing myself to make sure my voice is heard, and you almost, I think sometimes as, as a, a woman in that kind of environment, you have to push harder, you know, in, in certain situations. And then the rest of that group, being aware and supportive around that, um, is really important.
And, you know, it's one thing that I try to do as, as a leader again, you know, is make sure that all those voices are heard. And, and if someone is being a little quiet, like to ask them their opinion and, and make sure you draw that out. Because some of the best ideas come that way, right? And it's not always from the loudest voice in the room, a lot of the time it's not always, it's not that way.
So I think that's one of the key things I would say. You know, and I think it's also that, work-life balance, you know, it's obviously not always like this, but a lot of [00:49:00] times that kind of family demands and stuff can fall, more heavily on the woman than the man.
I felt like that for sure. And. Being aware of that and, and making sure one that people feel, you know, open and comfortable around, sharing when there is a challenge there and, and supporting them with that. You know, what we do in, in our company, a pretty technical, and I lead this from the top to make sure I'm doing it too, is, you know, if someone needs to step away and go pick up their kid from school or their kid's sick or.
Take someone to a dentist appointment or whatever, they can just do that. Just let us know. So we are not like chasing you. But it's totally fine. We, you can manage your time, and we trust you to manage your time. And actually, if you're not managing it right, then it's, you know, it doesn't work, right? But you're empowered to do that.
And we are a remote culture as well, a remote first culture. So it is part of, you know, you need to trust people that they're going to, be able to balance those things. But I think [00:50:00] that's also a real pull for people when they join the business, is that flexibility and that autonomy and, being able to manage their own time in that way.
Or, you know, go and work, somewhere else for the summer because, you know, they, they, they want, their kids are there, or there's some family and that's fine too, right? We, we don't mind, just. You know, we trust you to do your job. So I think, um, I think again, like that flexibility, particularly I'd say, with women is really important and really valuable and, you know, we're in, we're in a world nowhere that's easier with all the technology that we have to, to make that happen.
So, so why not?
Leo Judkins: Have you, have you, uh, you had the feeling that you've had to work twice as hard, be taken, half as seriously,
Emma Blaylock: well, within me, I always like really work hard. I think it's just something I've always done. I do feel I've had to work hard to get to where I am. I absolutely do. You know, and I've had to push, [00:51:00] forward, like really kind of demonstrate what I've brought to the table. And I think that has been hard, but, I'm not a like a person that naturally shouts about all the things that I've done. I, I'd rather like the team take credit and, you know, and, and, and be that kind of team player. Very good and happy about talking about other people's achievements and like, and how they've done that. So, maybe that's partly of, of being a female in this space, but I think that's also partly my personality too.
Leo Judkins: Techie as well, right? I mean that's, that's
quite introvert, probably. So it's,
Emma Blaylock: yeah,
Leo Judkins: uh, it makes a lot of sense. Uh, and it's drain it can be draining as well, right? When you have to, when that's actually what you have to do. The, the, the social con
Emma Blaylock: yeah.
Leo Judkins: about
Emma Blaylock: You do. Yeah,
Leo Judkins: right?
Emma Blaylock: yeah,
Leo Judkins: be quite, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So thank you for sharing that. How so, how are you finding this podcast.
Emma Blaylock: I'm enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it, actually. You know, I've watched your podcast, I've watched a lot of your episodes. I think, I think they're [00:52:00] fantastic, right? There's not something like this in, in our industry. There's, I haven't seen it in other industries either.
But, seeing the people that are shaping the industry, seeing like those, the human side of that, the vulnerabilities around that, how they've got to what they do to where they are, not just from their successes, but. From the challenges and how they've learned through that, I think that's so important.
So, um, we met really recently right at SVC Lisbon for the first time, and I loved our conversation there. And, you know, I was really excited to have this conversation. I think it's, um, it's a really important topic, to share and share like people's life stories and how they've, how they've done what they've done.
Um, yeah. So I was, you know, yeah, I was excited by it.
Leo Judkins: you very much for sharing. I've got one last question for you, Emma. Uh, we talked a lot about hard decisions, the course, the, the challenges you've grown through. You could only kind of [00:53:00] pass one truth to another leader who's about to step in your shoes, maybe, know, when you think
Leo Judkins: stepping in that CEO role, a pretty technical, like, what would it be?
What would be the thing that you wish someone would've told you that no one did?
Emma Blaylock: I think we've touched on a few things, um, through this, like that authenticity, um, and being, you know, being open and like transparent and vulnerable to people. Like that's, that's how you build trust and working with people that, you know, it is really important to me that I work with people that I really believe in and like as individuals and, uh, enjoy working with as well, whether that's within pretty technical also our partners and our customers too.
Right. The other thing I would say that I think is so important is focus, right? And, and also by that I mean not just focusing on like you, your key goals, [00:54:00] but also. Being able to say no to things that are not part of your focus is super important. And you know, something that I've learned as I've, as I've gone through, because I like to be a helpful person, it's quite hard to say no to someone and say no to, you know, maybe a business opportunity.
That sounds exciting, but you, but you have to. Right? And I think, if someone had said that to me as I was coming into these kinds of more leadership roles, you, you know, that would be, would be super valuable. Yeah. So, so that ability to say no as well as the ability to say yes and that focus on what's, what's the ultimate goal you're trying to achieve and do these things help you get there or not?
And, and sometimes it's not as easy as that because sometimes this could and this could, but maybe this is, is going to leap frog you further. Like, then, you may have to choose that. So yeah, it that. Focus and ability to say no.
Leo Judkins: Love it. We call it [00:55:00] the not do list,
Emma Blaylock: There you go. Yeah, I like that.
Leo Judkins: hey Emma, thank you
Emma Blaylock: Yeah.
Leo Judkins: sharing today. Really loved our, uh, conversation. Uh, fantastic.
Emma Blaylock: Yeah. Thank you.
Leo Judkins: being on the show.
Emma Blaylock: Thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the conversation