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"If we were a friend to ourselves, what would we do? How would we treat ourselves?" - Melanie Froemke,
"Recognizing signs and symptoms in ourselves, just our mood, having a check-in with ourselves, knowing ourselves, is a really vulnerable act. It's really courageous to do that." - Melanie Froemke,
Welcome to the We Got Your Six podcast. Our mission is to end veteran suicide. If you are struggling with thoughts of hopelessness or suicide, please reach out to family, friends, a classmate, or call 988 for immediate help.
We are here for you, and we want you to be here with us tomorrow.
The We Got Your Six podcast is a production of the West Point Class of 1999 and the 99 Legacy Fund. The podcast is hosted by Phillip Naithram and produced by Brennan Wallace, with technical production by Scott Bronikowski.
If you would like to make a tax-deductible donation towards the 99 Legacy Fund’s mission to support the survivors of our fallen, please visit www.99legacyfund.org to donate. With Duty In Mind.
Scott Intro 00:13
Welcome to the six podcasts sponsored by the 99 Legacy Fund and the West Point Class of 1999. Here we share our stories and exchange information to let each other know there's always a good enough reason to be here tomorrow, we want to remind you that you're not alone in your struggle. We got your six. Now, here's your host, and friend of the class of 99, Phillip Naithram
Phillip Naithram 00:37
Melanie Froemke, thank you so much for joining us here on the we got your six podcast. This is a podcast. It's supported by the class of 1999 Legacy Fund. Many of the members and are many of the guests that we've had, and most of them so far have been fellow classmates of West Point Class of 99. And close by, really grateful to be here with you. We're both local. Yeah, super easy.
Melanie Froemke 01:05
Yeah. Thank you in person. And yeah,
Phillip Naithram 01:08
Are you familiar with Babe Kwasniak and Matt Kuntz and some of these others that we've had on the show? Yeah, yeah. Chris Mayo. Yeah, she was great. Yeah. You were in the class of 99. at West Point. Yes. Yes. oh you know what , That wasn't even why I asked that. I asked that because you were a therapist. And I was like, oh, no, someone from
Melanie Froemke 01:23
Yeah. It was interesting to me, when you first kind of reached out to me and said, What's your connection with 99? And I don't know what your perception is. But it is. You know, as a woman, it's, I get that a lot. Like, you know, for my kids, like, oh, did your dad go to West Point, since we have our West Point license plate? You know, so it's, it's not expected? Oftentimes, right? Yeah, yeah, I guess it's a different, different angle to write. I'm definitely a career changer. Interestingly, I found out about another West Pointer, who works in DC as a therapist, and I was just approached by another therapist who's changing her career and is looking for supervision. So yeah, I think, you know, finding meaning and purpose in our experiences. Yeah, more and more of us.
Phillip Naithram 02:15
That's what I found, actually, most of the interaction. So I have quite a few interactions with people who didn't go to West Point. There's all kinds of ways to serve. I spent a lot of time around a lot of military people, and they remind me of that a lot. But many of the Special Forces folks that I know, and definitely the West Pointers, still find a way to be of service even after their quote unquote, service, right, James skank. He's the president of Pentagon Federal Credit Union, just had breakfast with him on on Monday, but when you hear what else he's doing with his roundtable dinners, and the things he's doing with his life outside of just going to West Point, Blackhawks in the in the army, and he was a professor for a while there to really just sharp guy, but I don't know he'll find a way to be of service. It seems to be ingrained in there, especially with some of the other people like Brennan and people that have taken me on mountaineering trips. It's just something that comes out of that organization.
Melanie Froemke 03:14
Yeah, I definitely think I mean, it's, it's, it is ingrained. And I think that's part of the purpose of the mission is building leaders of character. And that's not just it doesn't have to be just in the army, but in our communities and in our lives. Just you know,
Phillip Naithram 03:30
Why did you go to West Point? Like, why not? Why not the Air Force Academy? Oh, yeah, somewhere else? Or why did the military exist in the first place?
Melanie Froemke 03:38
Yeah. It's an interesting question. I grew up in a lower middle class family outside of Cleveland, Ohio, and my family did not have money. So my mom, I think, told me I think I was a freshman in high school, you better find a way to pay for college because we don't have any money for you. When yet there was an expectation that I would attend college, which was great. But I remember going to my guidance counselor in high school, Mr. De Lisieux, who was a wonderful guy, said, I think I want to go to West Point. And he said, why? And I said, because it's free. And he said, Well, thankfully, he knew his son was actually ROTC. And so he knew about the military, he knew about the army. And he knew that it wasn't free. That it was, you know, what I understood at the time now. No, eight years of your life, but five years of your life at least, and there's a lot there. You can't just go for money reasons alone, or at least, you know, I definitely found that out along the way. But that's what led me there. And then why West Point over some of the other academies. Interestingly, as an adult, I definitely questioned why the heck did I go there? I think, you know, I looked at West Point versus some of the other military academies because they had more liberal arts options. I know that I don't know why I ended up at an engineering school. That was definitely not my forte and it was It's really hard for me I had to do staff, which was pointers, no as summer school, because I failed a math course, my classmate, Ed Elkhorn, you know, now rats got me through math, because, you know, it was really, really challenging for me. So I think, you know, through high school, I was a leader, I was president of Student Council, I was president of this club and that club and, and, you know, just carrying that forward to do the best thing that I could. I think that was not necessarily engraved in grit ingrained in me. But I also wanted to get out of Ohio, right. And so I knew that, you know, working the hardest I could, and you know, something like, like West Point could kind of lead on a road out.
Phillip Naithram 05:50
So yeah, what was an unexpected outcome of West Point, an unexpected, great thing that maybe you didn't even think was going to happen. And then looking back, even though you said, at times, you can question Why did I go, but are there times where you look back? And you're like, if I didn't go to Ohio State or something? Yeah. Something that wouldn't have been available to me? Yes.
Melanie Froemke 06:13
Well, actually, I look back and wonder if I would have made it through college. Otherwise, as an adult, I've been diagnosed with ADHD. And so I think my attention spans all over the place. And so, you know, just having the routine, the structure, the expectations, the support system there, I remember some of my professors really helping me and just the team and the camaraderie there. Like I mentioned, my friend Edie, getting me through math, right. And, and, you know, even in summer school, feeling like it was a part of that community and really feeling supported in that way.
Phillip Naithram 06:53
Yeah. What did you call yourself a career changer? Yeah. What were some of those careers before? And my
Melanie Froemke 07:00
path to get here? Yeah. So well, let's see. So I was in the army for about eight years. And I really loved it, it was really difficult to decide to get out or not. I got out when I was pregnant with my daughter. And for me at the time, that was the right decision. I finished my master's in HR with Webster University, which was associated with the army at the time, and my professor there offered me a job. I knew I wanted to stay home, I wanted to be a stay at home mom. And so I let him know that and he said, You work for the Humane Society. And you can work part time from home after your baby's born. And so it was just like the guardian angel almost no, it's like, it's a wonderful opportunity to do that. So I worked for the Humane Society for a few years and the education arm of that and reaching out to like veterinarians, learning about compassion, fatigue, you know, setting up training, so yeah, it was interesting. And then I ended up homeschooling my kids. For a couple years. It was a really great experience. Once my daughter got in first grade, she got into a Spanish Immersion program. And so that was a great school system that was better than where we were living. So it was, it was good to do that.
Phillip Naithram 08:27
You're looking? Yes, Spanish immersion. What does that mean? Oh,
Melanie Froemke 08:32
so it's here in Fairfax County. It's an option for kids to go half a day in that language. Ideally, they're immersed in the language for half a day. And then, they take math and science classes in Spanish. So those are great opportunities, something I couldn't provide to her. I was a language major at West Point, but I wasn't fluent in Spanish at the time. And so, so we pursued that. And then so you know, ended homeschooling. I was a fitness instructor for a long time and stayed at home mom. Yeah, that's, well, we're all over. I mean, I've taught at a ton of different gyms and yoga studios. And I started with spinning classes. I did that for many, many years. And then just you know, I'd always wanted to become a yoga instructor. I was called to do that. And then, I went back for that training when my son was about two and was able to kind of leave him for some of the training. And so I've been doing that. So yeah, and then trying to figure it out , I shadowed a bunch of friends to figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up. So I shadowed occupational therapists and I thought when I was in the army, I wanted to come and get my Master's in policy management. And then I shadowed friends who did that and thought, oh my gosh, this is mind numbing, numbing for me and how my brain and personality works. And so I was grateful that I didn't end up in that because that's kind of part of why I left the army and then Um, so yeah, so I through yoga, I ended up taking some trauma sensitive yoga training and did kind of a wounded warrior training, learned about anxiety, depression, TBI, PTSD. And that's really where it kind of hit me to say like, this is what I want to do. I want to help people on a more direct level. I want to make a difference in people's lives. And it felt really meaningful. And so I decided to become a social worker. I went back to school for my MSW. And here I am.
Phillip Naithram 10:34
Yeah. So here you are your licensed clinical social worker, let's talk about your practice. Obviously, this is the week at your six podcast, we talk a lot about mental health. Yeah, and some of the things that we as people can experience, but very specifically, former military folks, so 99 was lost some some some folks along the way, I have my own experience with attempted suicide and alcoholism. And just, you know, I think, the psychology that goes into that, we're just like, the mindset that goes into that. And this idea of, you know, high performer, I was a pretty high performer when I was younger, or I wanted, like, I always fancied myself to be that. So I could, I was always fighting something overcoming trying to be the best at what I was doing. And so it feels like you have two wolves inside of you sometimes, and one that wants to fight and one that's just like, you know, I'm better off not being here. So, you know, I've talked pretty openly about that. I mean, I just mentioned that to kind of set the stage for the conversation when you're doing trauma work, or did you deploy or like what led you. Why was it a column for you? Did you experience it on your own? Sure.
Melanie Froemke 11:46
Yeah, I think most of humanity experiences trauma. As a woman in the military, there's definitely trauma experience. I think, you know, moving forward working with trauma, it's meaning making out of that, you know, yeah, listening to some of the podcasts you did with my other classmates, it's, you know, I can identify with that myself. And the Army culture was, I can't say now, I've heard it's changed a lot for the better. But it was really that, you know, very cutthroat and really, you know, a lot of alcohol. I like to say that there was a focus on mental health, but I think that it would be brushed under the rug. Yeah. Yeah. Did you deploy? Oh, you asked that question. No, I, I so I deployed quote, unquote, air quotes, I guess I can, I'm being taped here. I deployed to Hungary. So Taser Hungary. It was supportive so the other platoon leader in my company went to Bosnia. I went to Hungary, I was a postal platoon leader, and my soldiers were in Hungary, in Bosnia, in Syria, Evo, and in, in Split Croatia, where else I'm trying to think, and throughout Hungary, so my counterpart was in Bosnia, and my company command was there, I was off on my own. So it was a great opportunity, kind of, from a young, professional standpoint, to kind of stand out on my own and kind of run the show. But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't a record Afghanistan, by any means. It wasn't even Bosnia, I was able to, it was just a different ball of wax, where we were able to go off post, we were able to wear civilian clothes, we were able to there was a lot of alcohol, whereas in the other places, maybe it wasn't, wasn't allowed. I'm sure it was still there. But it wasn't wasn't necessarily
Phillip Naithram 13:56
allowed. So let's talk about your yoga practice and what it's centered around. Okay, so
Melanie Froemke 14:00
I do have seen people from the military, it's not focused on that. My practice and what I tend to specialize in, I'm actually a play therapist. So I work with kids. Yeah, you see lots of toys, games, puppets. sandtray. I use a lot of these things with adults to a lot of art expressive modalities. So that's, that's kind of one arm of it. And then the rest are mainly adults with trauma. And it's, again, it's not just military. We do live in an area where there's a lot of military. But I see a lot of military kids and dependents, not as many military individuals. But I see kind of across the lifespan, which is great because it keeps it varied. Yeah, yeah.
Phillip Naithram 14:54
I shared a little bit about my experience. Anyone who's listened to some of the past episodes has already gotten A lot of it. I set that stage with the tools. And I think it's important to share, what's some of the symptoms of trauma, PTSD, obviously suicidal ideations, only you know that you think about killing yourself. Yeah, only, you know, you have those ideas that either I'm not enough. Or it's a very weird way to almost not be selfish, that let's take the word selfishness out of it right? For a second. It can seem like the most logical thing that this is what's best for everyone, right? Especially when I can't stop myself from doing something or thinking something or behaving in a way that I don't want to behaving, it feels like it's against my will, is then out of my control, then there's the me in here that's also experiencing and witnessing all of this not knowing how to stop myself from doing it, the best thing for me to do is to just not be here. That's actually I think, in my experience, you can identify, you know, that only you know that to thine own self be true. But before you get there, what are some of the other things that someone ought to recognize about themselves to say, hey, like, you know, that thing that I've been pushing away, or that I think isn't a big deal might actually be right, or what are some of the beginnings? Because it's hard to ask for help? I don't ask for help. Yeah. I mean, I'll just figure it out on my own. That means I'm good enough. Right. That's the mindset that I know, yeah. So someone listening? Yeah.
Melanie Froemke 16:27
And I think part of that, you know, there's been a big push in our class and in the military to we think of like, the 22 a day, right? We are losing 22 veterans a day to suicide, and, you know, reaching out. And noticing this, I think there are a lot of people who might not be as connected, right, but signs and symptoms in ourselves. Just our mood, right, having a check in with ourselves, knowing ourselves. I think they're, like you talked about before, I think we started the podcast, but like this, you know, competition society, like you're trying to really strive for, you know, doing the best and just working ourselves to the grind, right? How are we taking care of ourselves? If we were a friend to ourselves, right? What would we do? How would we treat ourselves? But if we start to notice, anxiety, or depression, you know, sometimes that can be somatic symptoms, I think for me, just being really connected to our bodies and being aware a lot of people think we walk around with our head disconnected from our bodies, because we as a society aren't necessarily connected to what emotions feel like in the body, when actually feelings are a somatic experience. And they're, you know, we're, when we can become embodied, we can notice more. But I think when people start to choose to not do things they would normally be interested in, maybe start to isolate more, I think drinking is a huge part of it. And again, kind of coming back to what we came from in that army culture. As you know, it's just accepted and not really knowing, you know, how that affects our mood on a grander scale. Whereas now it's like, we recognize that, you know, alcohol has a longer term effect, it actually increases anxiety and increases some of those depressive symptoms on a larger or longer basis. So I think when we start to notice those thoughts within ourselves, it's, it's, you know, when we can get those out in any way, it's helpful, whether that's through therapy through writing it down through connecting to somebody else, which is a really vulnerable act. It's really courageous to do that. But yeah, does that answer your question?
Phillip Naithram 18:48
No, it does mean it was like self awareness is literally just that, right. So being aware of yourself in it takes at least for me, it took a lot of it took a lot of pausing and really kind of like I had to do inventories. Like I had to do inventories for a ton of stuff. Like, where was I resentful? Where was I angry today? Where was I? What's my self-talk? What are the I am statements I use with myself? Because I was I really thought that if I, I thought I could self deprecate myself in a better behavior. So if I was just mean enough to myself that I would eventually change my behavior. And something would be different in my life. And I think when you recognize yourself doing that, that's actually you, you're trying to solve a problem. Which means that you have a problem. Right? If you like, especially with the drinking, if you are trying to control your drinking, it's by definition out of control, right? If you're trying to manage your life and manage things, and I'm just trying to manage things very well, it by definition, is unmanageable. And I needed the clear definition of what you know, my alcoholism is right. I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober nine years. But actually yeah, Thank you. All right. I was night and day, and I live a life that I didn't even know I wanted, I didn't even know was available to me. I thought I was just gonna get sober and just stop drinking and my life would still be shit. And I still hate myself. That's what I thought would happen. The complete opposite has happened. I get way more than I ever thought was available to me. That's the best way I could put it. But I didn't realize it, like drinking wasn't my problem. It was my problem. I was really good at drinking, I was so good at it that it ruined my life, you know, but when I didn't have it when I wasn't drinking, I was restless, irritable, and discontent. And I never would have used any of those vocabulary words, even though I knew the definition of all three. Right? So are you feeling discontent right now? No, it's fucked up. And I hate my life. But that's what discontent means. But I would never use those phrases, right? I guess you know. And so I needed people to just kind of like, Let me punch myself out and then say, you know, you can take as many tests on the internet, as you want that say if you drink X amount of drinks per week, then you wipe it and you just lie to the test. Yeah, but if you're shaking and sweating uncontrollably, or you're just sweaty throughout the day, or you're restless, irritable and discontent, or you're just contemplating which liquor store you're going to stop off at, or which one did you go to yesterday? So the guy there doesn't tell you the same, but it's like, that's what mental obsession is. Right? So you're Yeah, you know, yeah, I
Melanie Froemke 21:20
I think that's a good point. I looked through the diagnostic criteria, which sometimes I do with clients to say, like, is this actually alcohol use disorder? And interestingly, it's taking up more brain space, right? If we're just thinking about drinking, like, Oh, I'm going to drink tonight. But maybe it's, maybe I should just have one because then I have to dry like, if it just takes up more mindspace it's actually you know, and some of us might come from I know, I do come from a family with addiction issues. So it's definitely something to be aware of in ourselves. Interestingly, just today, I had a client on the couch who, you know, was just checking in. How's your mood this week? Well, great. And noticing, like these shifts in themselves and and then what do you attribute those changes to? I don't know, well, I've been doing this, I've been exercising a couple of times a week, and I've been doing it, and then this light bulb goes off? Oh, I've given up alcohol. I didn't make that connection. Right. But there's a huge connection when we can when we can take that out of our lives. And just notice how we feel versus the effect of the alcohol. We don't often notice. Yeah,
Phillip Naithram 22:34
I mean, and I think more so like, you know, for some of the other stuff with with depressive behaviors or just obsessions, over certain things, getting fixated on certain things, and all or nothing black or white mentality that like, alright, well, what I really need to do you know what my problem is, I'm not working out enough. So I'm just gonna go. And then you know, you go out on like a five mile run, you do a 72 hour fast, like these sort of things. It's like, extreme behavior, that feels like toughing it out. It feels like beating. Yeah, like I'm out running. I was out running by myself. I thought that's what I had to do. I mean, there was a ton there. But so that's, you know, I had hit bottom before I changed. And I didn't know I was at the bottom. until after I was about, right, I dragged across the bottom. You can't get off the elevator on any level you want. But other people in my life, I'm sure recognized things about me. Yeah. And they may not have known how to approach it, for sure do about it, or even what they were looking at. Yeah. So I'm sure you have the experience to share what, how to notice what we're looking at. Yes, your wife or your husband? Yeah,
Melanie Froemke 23:47
I think I mean, I'm thinking back to my own experience. And, you know, when you can self reflect, it's very different, but distinct behavior changes, right? If somebody is acting out of character. That's huge. Right? I think, you know, and having the ability to say things like, are you okay? I think that's a big thing. So you asked earlier too and my brain keeps going back to the effects of trauma like what's what, how does it affect us? And yeah, I think that there's there's a lot of things right, there's, as you mentioned, there's like the black and white thinking, the automatic automatic negative thoughts, right, all of these things that we have thinking and kind of reaction kind of going to the all of those negatives about yourself. Maybe for you is that self deprecation, right? We might start to notice things in our body we can hold you know, like clenching your jaw might have tension and neck and shoulders. Are you just drugged up? Right. It's and then like for, you know, I could go through a list of things. I work with more women who have experienced sexual trauma and so there's a lot of pelvic floor issues there. You know, there are you then there's autoimmune disease, there's I mean, just all of these things went untreated, it's, you know, we let this get bigger and bigger. And we unbeknownst to ourselves, because we're again, we're just like, we're just fighting the fight, we're just living our daily life. And yet, if we have untreated trauma, this is kind of the road that we can, we can expect, right? When there's untreated trauma. Let's see what else somebody's thinking. Sometimes we have kind of risky behaviors. So just knowing what that is, maybe sometimes that's drinking, maybe that's, you know, something different. Sometimes it's, it's more like, you know, self harming, in a way. Yeah,
Phillip Naithram 25:48
the automatic negative thoughts, the ants in our brain. And also, for me, like, I don't know, like, maybe if I find that it's negative thoughts about everything. Yeah, if I'm constantly tripping, and trying to find the worst case scenario, things could possibly be so that I can protect myself from it or prepare for it. Thinking that I'm eight to 12 steps ahead of the game, I found a way for me to try to keep myself safe. Right, keep that part of me that is concerned, ultimately, about me, but keep me safe. But at the time, I thought I was just being smart about it. And I'm just reading like, you mean, why would you think would happen? Of course, I gotta be ready for the bad things that happened, like this is what this is what being smart is this would be unhealthy. Like, you know, I'm just doing the best I can. But these are some of the phrases I would say. If you had to live your life, be me you would understand. This is for the best of everybody. Sort of like that rhetoric. I only mentioned that because I mean, maybe it's helpful for someone to hear, yeah, they are part of what we try to do with this show. I found that, you know, the more that we articulate the vocabulary that we use, the more we're able to either help someone help someone else, or help someone to ask for help. Just like, you know, when I sound like, yeah, absolutely. That's the way I used to drink, or that's what I used to do. That's how I used to be a I, you know, you mentioned a lot about so the Body Keeps the Score. Right? I, I can't tell you, I don't even know how to describe like, I mean, I don't remember ever getting sick, I didn't allow myself to be sick, because I didn't, you know, if I get to get sick, no one's gonna care about you being sick. So just like, you know, shut up, like, you know, or deal with it, or just like, keep your sniffles to yourself that I was very, all through my 20s. All through that was definitely during my drinking years. But, you know, I was very, I was so worried about what other people thought about me, I would pretend to be whatever version of me I needed to be just to make sure that you liked me. But the trick was that I had to think up what I thought You thought and then adjust my behavior based on what I thought You thought. And then hope you were happy with what I thought You thought. And if you weren't now I'm resentful at you because look what I did for you, right? I never saw that as unmanageable behavior. But as I've gotten better my sense of physical wellness, like and being able to feel them understand my body, but I haven't been sick in a decade. Like I haven't had aches and pains, like I don't know, like, how much with your yoga experience, I'd love to hear like, how much of there is the book, The Body Keeps the Score, it's thick, is dense, it's hard to read, it's all these things, you're easy to talk to tell me like, What is it? How is it connected? And like, what is this that's going on? And what can we recognize if it's happened at like, if you got a pain in your elbow for 10 years, it's probably got something else going on?
Melanie Froemke 28:36
Well, right. And I you know, even as a yoga instructor, I have students who come up to me and they're like, I have this thing. And it's like, I'm not a substitute for a medical doctor, right? So let's see your doctor first. But yes, there are things that we notice and you've read the book, The Body Keeps the Score. So we hold in our body, right? So kind of specifically, you know, oftentimes with trauma that's in our hips, and in the psoas. And so what is like for me, well, finding yoga gave this opportunity to come home to myself, and it gave me the space to invite myself into a presence where I think my experience was aligned with yours where you know, is this go go go Do do do prove to others. Not feeling very secure in myself. Not feeling very secure in relationships. You know, having experienced trauma and so all of that it's, you know, feels really big. And then gosh, we can come back to the breath and I can actually be with the thoughts in my head. Oh, what's that like? And oh, maybe I can let those thoughts go and just be with the breath. Oh, that feels more comfortable. Right. So maybe that was a starting point for me. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is knowing our bodies, and kind of just being with that, and being curious about it, so I tend to invite that into any practice that I'm guiding along the way. So it's just just being curious about your body and, and getting in and moving and being present with. Yeah.
Phillip Naithram 30:19
Yeah, being present. Like I was, it was really easy for me to say that I think a lot of people always say that, but you know what, what that actually feels like to me, maybe it's disassociation or murmur. Like, but like I was really good at just like, daydreaming about something else. Never uncomfortable feelings popped up. Just imagine myself somewhere else doing something else and think I was doing the right thing, right. I'm just like, turning my attention to something positive. Really, I'm running away from that feeling. And I think being present, you know, sometimes it can look like breathing exercises. But sometimes it could just be naming exactly what I'm feeling or what I'm thinking about. asking like, where did that come from? There's a rain, practice, recognize, allow, investigate and not identify. But just doing that, right, or even like 54321. To just get into the present. You know what I'm talking about, like, five things, I can see four things, I can hear three things, I can touch. Two things I can smell. And one thing I can taste, right. That takes like all of a minute, maybe to look around the room. But then when I stopped for a second, I realized, Oh, I'm sitting in this room. Like
Melanie Froemke 31:40
I like you're reorienting yourself right there in the
Phillip Naithram 31:43
present. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I just found that that was like, you know, hearing, because everyone was just present. No one was telling me what to do.
Melanie Froemke 31:52
Yeah, yeah. So well, that's interesting that you say, you know, I was doing the wrong thing, by daydreaming. And as someone who specializes in working with trauma, and with that comes dissociation. Maybe that's what you needed at the time. Maybe that dissociation and daydreaming is along the spectrum of dissociation over here. That's what we describe. It's, it's daydreaming. It's kind of driving a few blocks and realizing, Oh, how did I get here? I forgot the last few blocks to overhear, we have dissociative identity disorder, right. And so anywhere in between, and it's, you know, sometimes it's helpful. It's a distraction, okay. And then there's the being present. So sometimes it's what we need in the moment to get us through. And then sometimes, you know, we can build the skill of being present. So we can notice, oh, I just went away for a minute here. And just noticing that within ourselves.
Phillip Naithram 32:52
How does someone know the difference between that where it's something that they need to be aware of, and maybe, at some point, ask questions? Yeah, versus visualization, like visualization, meditation, or something healthy to do like
Melanie Froemke 33:06
what I think the intentionality, right, if there's intention in, I am going to do a guided meditation, I'm going to kind of maybe actively intentionally put What's disturbing to me in a container, and kind of or vault and kind of, in my mind's eye, kind of send that away, or put that away for now, until I can address it. If there's the intention of doing that, that's, I think, the difference, right? Just disassociation happens to really intelligent people who are, you know, it is a helpful skill to kind of partition off the brain, if you will, to say like, that's too much, right? Trauma is kind of exceeding our capacities to handle a situation or an action or an event right in the moment. And so, we partition off sometimes, and so I imagine that that's, you know, happens to a lot of people, especially those who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan, and who've, you know, like, I'm just going to put that away. Maybe that can invite a greater presence with, you know, we can heal from that trauma.
Phillip Naithram 34:14
So we were talking before we started about your experience with Yogaville. And we've mentioned a little bit about how you incorporate yoga into your practice. So I'd love to, you know, while we're talking about trauma, we talked about the so as we talked about the hips, but I want to hear your experience with Yogaville. And then I'd like to do a couple moves with you. Anyone who's watching will be able to practice or maybe try them on their own. But there was something you talked about. So my experience has been developing a relationship with a power greater than myself. Right, a higher power. I choose the call of God because it's a one syllable, three letter word. Very easy to use. I like it fun, and, you know, but you don't have to write if you have a challenging relationship with that word, or with religion of some sort, you know, that's okay. Because you don't need either one of those to have a relationship with a power outside of yourself, right. And I found a lot of freedom, a lot of help, and a lot of growth by developing that relationship. Yeah. And allowing myself the opportunity to do that. And it was an action based allowance, I had to develop a relationship with that higher power the same way I would develop a relationship with you if we had met, but I didn't know that. And I was very separated from that higher power for a long time. Coincidentally, the time I was like, you know, destroying my life and dragging across the bottom. And never saw that there. Those two things were correlated in any kind of way until afterwards. Thankfully, I have. But I'd love for you to share your experience with Yogaville. And what that conversation you were talking specifically about your daughter, but I'm sure something had to have an impact on
Melanie Froemke 35:59
you, too. Oh, sure. I mean, Yogaville was great. I think the few times that I went, I actually went on a family retreat, and it was I brought my kids with me. And the story I shared with you earlier was just about that belief in a higher power. And my daughter, I think she was seven or eight but very strongly felt that she was an atheist at the time. And then hearing the words of the Yogaville founder yogi, such an Ananda, kind of describes that, if you have friends, if you have people you love, that, that love is a connective power, and that, that, that is something greater than ourselves. And so therefore, if you ascribe to and believe in love, then you believe in a higher power. So I think she's come around to, you know, understanding that now. And for me, it was just, you know, wonderful, wonderful to have her thoughts challenged in that way. Because I think that when we can believe in something greater than ourselves, we can, again, find more meaning and find more depth. And, you know, it's like you said, it's helpful. Yeah,
Phillip Naithram 37:12
I mean, and I would tell you all day back, then I would say, oh, like, I would tell you that I don't believe in God, like, and I think I would have called myself a theist, but only because I didn't know what agnostic meant at the time. Right. That wouldn't have been the first word I used. Right. But in the same sentence, I'd say that I'm an atheist, I've knocked on wood. I believe in what I can vote for. Right? Right. But I never I never drew a connection there. Yeah. But yeah. And I had to start that by just being willing to believe. Yeah, not even that I believe, or I just believe that you believe all right. You know, that was enough. Good orderly direction, whatever you want to call it. Right God. But, but yeah, so how long were you? Yogaville? Was it like a one day seminar?
Melanie Froemke 38:00
Oh, I mean, it went over several years, several different times. It was wonderful. It was. That was just a fun thing I did with my kids. And I just love Yogaville and connecting with other families and some of my friends who were teachers who let some of those retreats. So yes, good experiences.
Phillip Naithram 38:19
I did the five day silent retreat, nice podcast hosts stay silent for five days. In 2019, between Christmas and New Year's. Definitely an experience. And I found that practicing yoga was just what I thought yoga was and what it actually has ended up becoming to me, is very different, like a lot of things. My belief in a higher power. When I thought about drinking, and when I thought about mental health and therapy, I was so oh my god. It'd be offensive if I shared with you what I used to say and think about therapists and people that went to therapy and what they do so I can't believe meanwhile, I've learned what they had. Or I think there was a part of me that was also jealous that they were getting help or that they were getting something or that what if they got better? And I think it was more that I didn't believe it was available to me. I was the only one telling myself No, I wanted what you had to offer. I just didn't want you to be the one to give it to me. I wanted to come up with it all on my own. I wanted to think up. Whatever it is, you're about to tell me I want to be the one to come up with the idea, right?
Melanie Froemke 39:28
Well, a good therapist will allow people to come up with their own ideas, frankly, but I think it's self exploration, maybe just guided but it is a vulnerable step. And there have actually been military members whose moms have come to me or friends or they've come to me and I've invited them into my office just to be like, just come in, let's just have coffee. Sometimes I can't be their therapist, but just to get a comfort with life, this is what it's like to come into a therapy office. This is what it's like to just talk to somebody. Oh, it's actually not that scary, right? Because, you know, sometimes we do have these stigma around, you know what it's like to go to therapy or to get help, right? Or even to disclose, oh, I'm having suicidal thoughts. I'm having, you know, negative thoughts about myself. That can be hard,
Phillip Naithram 40:25
especially if you have a security clearance or you're still active duty. I mean, there's all kinds of other layers there.
Melanie Froemke 40:29
Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of people who have, you know, when they have a clearance, they're like, I'm not sure I can do therapy, because I have a clearance and you know, it just has nothing to do with it. Right? They can. Yeah.
Phillip Naithram 40:41
Well, yeah. Well, I want to do some yoga with you. I want to see some of these. These moves. Now. We talked before. The TR E. Yeah. Can you help us understand what that is? What it has to do with yoga. You spoke earlier about the soul as muscle? Where is that? What is that? How is it connected to our emotions to our brain? Like help us understand what we're about to do?
Melanie Froemke 41:07
Yeah, well, not just theories. But I could talk, I could talk for days about yoga and mental health and the connection. But for trs specifically. And there's other things that I might like to share with you too. But theories are trauma or tension releasing exercises, specifically, because trauma is stored in the psoas muscle line, the psoas muscle line is the biggest muscle group or muscle line in the body. So it kind of goes down through the inner thigh up in front of the hip flexor, that's where we kind of tend to see some of the issues with you know, the pelvis, and then goes all the way up through the elbow. So we can, yeah, it's the entire luck muscle line. So we hold our tension and trauma there. And so some of these trauma releasing exercises actually invoke shaking in the body. So if we think about a zebra doesn't go around feeling anxious, because he shakes it off, like if he's, you know, has an encounter with a lion or a tiger, right? Like, just put it out there. Say, he's, he's going to go to the river. If he escapes the encounter, and he's just going to shake, you're gonna see that. Actually, there's a little video, it's really disturbing to me. But there's a little girl after her first encounter, killing an animal hunting, and she just shakes because she's so disturbed. And she says, Daddy, is this normal? And he did just the right thing. He just lets her shake, right? Taylor Swift shakes it off, right? It's like, literally, sometimes after a hard session, I'm just like, I just let myself shake it out. Shake it out. Shake it out. Right? Yeah.
Phillip Naithram 42:45
So is that you're shaking out the cortisol or you're shaking out the anxiety like, what are you shaking out? Yeah,
Melanie Froemke 42:51
all of the above right, your your instead of holding it in, and then sometimes, sorry, sometimes it can be stored as is maladaptive self self beliefs. Sometimes it's stored as that tension in the body. We can Yes, release it. I'm sure there's cortisol that we're releasing right through the shaking. But we're, we're giving it a space to just release if there's actually a sidetrack but there was next door, we have a nonprofit, they work with young adults. And I walked into a gun store the other day, and the woman was just shaking, shaking, shaking. She was holding the gun, she had taken it from a youth who came in with the gun and actually had a lot of addiction issues. So she was just shaking, and I just, you know, stayed with her and said, just let your body shake. I know, it's, it's in our culture, we want to be strong, we want to be like, I've got it together, I'm composed. But if we're ever in a car accident, if we're ever in something disturbing, and we notice that shaking, we want that shaking, we want to shake it out, we want to let it go, we want to just let the body shake, it's our natural way of being to allow the body to shake. So try it easy. And there have been a lot of studies, they brought this into some of the VA hospitals that you know, these are, can be really helpful to allow that invoke that shaking and to allow that release. And then some people find that they're helpful on a daily basis. So yeah, I do some of these and some other kinds of yoga techniques with some of my clients and some of the patients who come in and find it really helpful. So so it's
Phillip Naithram 44:23
not just adrenaline, or like, like, maybe it is, but it's not you shouldn't fight it loud to happen. Right? And fighting it, then just kind of locks it in
Melanie Froemke 44:32
accident. locks it in. Yeah. Yeah. And again, back to the Body Keeps the Score. It's like, you know, our body, if we're gonna hold it, we're holding it and then where is it going? What is it turning into some of the things we talked about earlier?
Phillip Naithram 44:44
Second Law of Thermodynamics energy is not created or destroyed. It's just transferring states going somewhere, right? And maybe it is, but if you've got misalignments that's actually the body. Compensating maybe not physically but like mentally Big for some sort of emotional thing. Yeah. With? I mean, where else would that show we talked about this? So we've, if you're walking around, like if someone maybe doesn't think that they have any issues or that they're fine and that they're dealing with whatever they're dealing with the best they can. But they also noticed something about their hips. What is something that they can notice?
Melanie Froemke 45:22
Well, I think that's going to cause pain, right. And anytime there's pain, there's something that the body's kind of screaming, that it needs attention. So I might not know what that person's exact issue is. So I can't. I don't want to just give this blanket statement like, oh, well, it's this because it might be an imbalance, right? It might be a shorter leg than another or, you know, leg length discrepancy, or there might be an injury or, you know, like, there may be other things that it can be attributed to, but when the body is kind of screaming out, yeah, it's important to listen to it where sometimes we want to just, you know, wish it away, or, you know, get surgery or whatever that is, I think that listening to the body can give us a lot more information. So I think that can be helpful. So there's, it's, there's a connection, and again, kind of going back to that statement, like some people think that we can just walk around with I think, and my head thinks, right, and, you know, a lot of cultures, actually, the the heart thinks, right, and so, you know, feeling with the heart versus just the, you know, the brain. So that can be a different way of looking at things
Phillip Naithram 46:31
to Yeah, yeah, even when you say I think who's the eye? Right. Right.
Melanie Froemke 46:37
And that's a good point. I wanted to go back to the negative thoughts that the thoughts are not us the thoughts don't is, you know, that is a part of us. That, you know, that the negative thoughts come from another lens or another part of us that there's a part of us that's observing that, yeah, that's we can, that may be your grounded more adult self.
Phillip Naithram 47:01
Yeah, don't believe everything you think I'm not my thoughts. I'm not my body. I mean, you know, that was in the silent retreat. Just because my mouth stopped, didn't mean the conversation stopped. But eventually, I was like, well, if I'm the one in here talking, who's the one in here listening, because we're both in here. You know, and then that was really where I started to understand like the self, right? When people say, you know, myself or the self,
Melanie Froemke 47:25
capital, adult, capital S self, yeah,
Phillip Naithram 47:28
I'm the one in here witnessing this guy doing his best. Anywhere. So, all right, well, why don't we, if you're just listening to the podcast, you won't be able to see these moves. But there are some great links, I think, for some YouTube videos that we can link below the episode. And if you are watching, we'll give you a little bit of demonstration of some of the moves that we can use for so as sure or at least, yeah,
Melanie Froemke 48:02
and the other thing is, you know, I think coming with caution, right. For people who have experienced trauma, they might want to do this under the guidance of a professional. There are even , I think do trs online, other professionals who can guide you through it, just to make sure that, you know, if we've experienced trauma, especially if we're experiencing dissociation, we don't want to go somewhere where we can't kind of come back, right? We don't want to go somewhere and have to open up a lot of things. And we can do that physically, too. So it's important to know that all right, so
Phillip Naithram 48:36
These are called TR e. S. And what does that stand for in trauma releasing
Melanie Froemke 48:45
exercises? Okay.
Phillip Naithram 48:45
Yeah. So they're yoga poses. So yeah,
Melanie Froemke 48:49
they're kind of a series of movements, if you will, to kind of invoke shaking and the psoas and then kind of releasing. Yeah. Interestingly, if I can share a story anecdote when I was in my training for these, I was with another yoga instructor who was attacked by a polar bear. And it brought up some nausea, and some kind of it brought up a lot for her, right. And so here's where we want to be, you know, make sure that we're working with a professional. But she couldn't come back to the training the next day, she just needed a break and needed some time to decompress, so they can be really powerful. Right, just like any modality that we're repressing trauma, I survived a polar bear attack if I had a polar bear attack, where you can see it probably in Alaska. Yeah, I was in Alaska. Alright,
Phillip Naithram 49:40
Well, I'll get out of your way. Why don't you tell us what the move is and then do it. Okay.
Melanie Froemke 49:45
Well, first of all, we want to have the psoas kind of fatigued. I'm not going to spend the time to do that here, but we can do that with wall sets. We can do Chair Pose, we can do maybe some yoga, a few warrior poses, and before we head into the TR Freeze. And you look like you're gonna ask me a question. Yeah.
Phillip Naithram 50:02
Well, so would working out or going on still do the same thing? Because you have to do yoga. No,
Melanie Froemke 50:07
it does not have to be yoga. So we just want to get tired and, like, do some work here. So yeah, after a run, would be perfect opportunity to do some of these exercises
Phillip Naithram 50:17
doesn't have to be like would walk encountered, does it have to exert you have to be tired, there
Melanie Froemke 50:23
needs to be some level of fatigue to especially I like to say like, within the legs. So again, like Yeah, walking, but then coming and doing a wall sit for a few minutes, maybe three minutes or and then doing some other exercises? Yeah, I'm not sure it depends on everybody's fitness level. Right? If they haven't been walking, walking might be enough. Everybody is different. So yeah. Okay. And so then the first one I'm going to show is coming down if you're familiar with Sphinx Pose. So coming into Sphinx, and then really all it is, is lifting the hips off of the mat. And I don't know if you can see from there, but I'm already shaking. And it's not necessarily but it's hard to hold this pose. But it's, it's the body shaking. So
51:12
That's all it is.
Phillip Naithram 51:13
And how long do you want to hold it for? Or is there the digit just as long as you can and go till you can't go anymore? Or do 10 seconds really
Melanie Froemke 51:23
not prescribed in that way? Like we can, we can just maybe the first time we do it, we're just like, oh, let me just, oh, there it is. I'm just going to notice and you know, we can hold it as long as it's serving us is the way I like to say. And then we can just bring the hips down, maybe we take a break.
51:41
We breathe and pause. And you know, maybe come back to it. Maybe not, maybe just a little bit. Little dabba doo. Yeah, just
Melanie Froemke 51:49
finding a little bit is all we need. But it's that simple, but it's invoking the hips. So the next one is on our backs. So in yoga, we start out with the pose, soup, Tabata Konasana, which is just the knees wide. We can stay here for a few minutes, just noticing, and then starting to find a bridge pose and actually like to time it for two minutes. So I'm not going to do that in the interest of time, but staying here for about two minutes. And I mean, already having done yoga this morning, my glutes are already tired just holding it. This can be challenging for anyone and I can already feel knowing theories. And my body, I'm already shaking a little bit. But after that, we can lower it down through the spine. And then bring the knees in just a few inches. And as you can see, my legs are a floater. I'm not doing that. That's just the natural release. And then I can stay here for as long as I like, as long as I'm comfortable with it. Some people might feel really disconcerted by the fact that the body's doing this. But it's serving us and kind of just letting go of that. And then bringing the knees in two inches and it might get even bigger. So just kind of playing with bringing the knees in an inch or two at a time. And then just allowing, I'll send the links to beat some of the VA work with TRS. And it looks a lot like people are flailing all over. But really, the body releases, so just trusting the body to say, oh, I can let go control here to just allow that shaking. So yeah,
Phillip Naithram 53:43
yeah. So that's not a weakness. That's not like, yeah, you just need to strengthen that muscle. That's actually a physical reaction the body's having to a, an emotional trauma that's stored in there, right? Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, we'll definitely link those links from the VA to the bottom of the episode. If you're listening, you'll get those and if you're if you're watching, so thanks so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
Scott Intro 54:11
Thank you for listening to the We got your six podcast where we are on a mission to end veteran suicide. If you're struggling with thoughts of hopelessness or suicide, please reach out to family friends, a classmate or call or text the number 988 for immediate help. We are here for you. And we want you to be here with us tomorrow. If you have a story to share on this podcast, please email us at admin at nine nine legacy fund.org. The we got your six podcasts is production of the West Point Class of 1999 and the 99 Legacy Fund. The podcast is hosted by Philip Nathan, and produced by Brendan Wallace with technical production by Scott Bronikowski. If you would like to make a tax deductible donation towards the 99 legacy fund's mission to support the survivors of our fallen Please visit www dot nine nine legacy fund.org to donate with duty in mind