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My intent is to Educate, Celebrate and Elevate the Consumer Relations function in CPG (Consumer Product Goods) companies, especially for Brand Specialist and Analysts roles and responsibilities... !
Welcome to the My Curious Colleague podcast with your host, me, Denise Venneri. We'll be talking all things consumer relations with a focus on consumer product goods organizations and the brand specialist and analyst roles and responsibilities. So if you like CPGs, like I like CPGs, marketing, insights, and caring deeply for your consumers, Well, take a listen.
Denise V:Hello, my curious colleagues. This week, I'm curious about setting up contact center support with your BPO.
Denise V:And I'm not just talking onshore or offshore. We're gonna go beyond those 2 and talk about some other things. And with us today to help me do just that is Mike Ferrari. He is the chief customer officer over at Avantiv Solutions. So welcome to the podcast, Mike.
Mike Ferrari:Thank you so much, Denise. It's, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Denise V:Oh my gosh. My my honor. My honor. This is a topic that I know nearly nothing about. I I know, like, this much to be dangerous, so I'm personally excited to to learn.
Denise V:But I think the first thing that we should do is just level set everybody on a little bit about your career journey and how you got to this point.
Mike Ferrari:Absolutely. It's interesting. I guess after a certain period of time, you you don't think back about how did I get here. It's more just in the moment, but kinda thinking back, right, my experience primarily has been a long time sales and customer service professional in retail. So my life all began in retail, followed that journey for quite some time.
Mike Ferrari:But it becomes something that is fairly repetitive, pretty predictable as far as how the business operates at least on the operational level that I was in. So I I found an opportunity to kind of start looking around. And my wife actually at the time was in a contact center. So she worked as, head of training and operations at a contact center, within Wisconsin because that's where we live. So I began my transition over to the contact center space back in 2009 now.
Mike Ferrari:So 15 years or so later, moved on from being an operations person, stepped a little bit into the client services or account management piece of it, and then, broadened that a little bit more to become the chief customer officer over here. And we as part of my role and the people that work with me, we oversee the client relationship and then business development as well. So that's where we get into trying to find the right solution for our customers, our partners, and that hence the topic that we're here today.
Denise V:Wow. Okay. So did you how long have you been with Avanta Solutions now?
Mike Ferrari:So Avanta Solutions was a company I came over with, so 15 years.
Denise V:That's a long time.
Mike Ferrari:Yes.
Denise V:If you had mentioned that, I missed that, but that that's a long time. Good for you.
Mike Ferrari:Thank you.
Denise V:And I think in in general, I would know Avanti Solutions as what we would call, on the brand side, a BPO, if that's correct, a business what does that stand for? Business Process Organization? Outsourcing. Outsourcing.
Mike Ferrari:Yep.
Denise V:Yeah. Which brings us into today's topic. So let let's just sort of level set me. Maybe we can start with and and and kinda mix it up any way that you feel comfortable. Like, what are the differences between the we'll we'll just go with the 4, types of of setup that that you and I have talked about.
Denise V:Like, what are the differences between all of those? And I wanna get to, like, what are the consideration like, what's the consideration set one would go through? I'm assuming with partnership with with your BPO as to what makes sense.
Mike Ferrari:And Absolutely.
Denise V:You know, let let's let's start there.
Mike Ferrari:Okay. Absolutely. So I think it's it's interesting. You know, you had me thinking a little bit about this topic. Right?
Mike Ferrari:And I think the topic of nearshore or offshore as you had mentioned previously, onshore is something that inherently nobody really thinks about, but that is something that is a kind of a central conversation point within the contact center space or a business process outsourcers. So, a lot of companies do it, Do the equivalent of near shore offshoring. But ultimately, it is the location that you're setting up the business. Most typically, a lot of people when it comes to contact centers or the BPO space, think of that as offshore. Right?
Mike Ferrari:Work in India. I'm receiving a phone call, making a phone call. I'm talking to somebody who's in India. Right? That's what a lot of the predisposition is.
Mike Ferrari:So, we look at India as an offshore because there when when you're in relation to the US. So all of this conversation is thinking about the US customer base, US partners that we work with. So that's considered offshore because it's a far enough change in demographic, distance, all of that stuff. Same with work in, like, South Africa or even if you did work in there's contact centers in Italy, France, all over the place in Europe. All of that is considered offshore for the US consumer.
Mike Ferrari:And then you have nearshore. So nearshore is for us are places like, believe it or not, Canada, even though they're attached to the US. Canada is considered a near shore company. There's Mexico, a lot of the Latin America Mhmm. Locations and then the Caribbean as well.
Mike Ferrari:So, contact centers are starting to grow. They've been around for quite some time, but there's more and more desire to grow in the, in the Caribbean and those islands and some of the spaces there. So the the reason it's termed nearshore is typically, excuse me, because obviously their proximity, but that proximity also brings some level of cultural similarities, language assimilation, understanding of products, understanding of what the consumer or the customer is going through or experiences. So those are the main ones. And then the the 4th one that you mentioned is blend shoring.
Mike Ferrari:Right? So that's not necessarily a location on its own, but it is the concept that we use it here at Avanti to look at what is the best mix of the partnership to outsource that work. That work can be anything from actually taking calls or making calls. Could be chat, could be email, social media support, all of those aspects that support the consumer brands or or a lot of the US businesses. And considering where does that fit best?
Mike Ferrari:Does it fit best in just one country, or does it fit best in some in the US and some in Mexico? Or maybe we take a little bit of that work and we put it in India because it's a better fit there. So the the concept of one shoring is really how do you maximize the geographies to best suit what the client, the partner, the consumer is looking for?
Denise V:That is perfect. Is is BlendSharing a new concept?
Mike Ferrari:It's becoming more and more prevalent because I think the general concept was if I'm I'm gonna do my work in the US or I'm gonna do it in this country. Right? There was never really the thought of how do I do it in both countries. What's the best mix? How do I segment that work?
Mike Ferrari:So it is it is a much newer concept. Again, in the industry, Avantive is one of the ones that we coined that a lot. We have a lot of conversations around blend shoring to help broaden the idea and kinda get that little plug in people's ears that it's not all or nothing. Right? It doesn't have to be 1 or the other.
Mike Ferrari:It can be a combination that best suits whatever the client or customer may need or want.
Denise V:Yeah. I mean, I like that customization piece. Adds a little creativity to the mix. And, again, I think I might have mentioned you offline. My understanding is one thing, and that is ABG organizations, and it would be onshore.
Denise V:In fact, you know, at one point, it was onshore in my career, one one location. And then I thought, oh, well, we're really doing it different now. And now we have 2 locations, you know, for a variety of reasons. So this episode is sponsored by the launch of my very first website, aptly named my curious colleague dot com. There, you'll find links to episodes of all my podcasts, YouTube videos, downloadables, and links to the podcast accolades and rankings.
Denise V:There's even a store feature for future products. Right now, my official sticker is available with the CPG CX hashtag on it, and it is available for free. So go now to order a sticker and show your pride in our function and share your support of my little podcast. That's www.mycuriouscolleague, all one word, dot com. You touched on some of the factors that you might consider, but I wanna pull those out for folks like myself.
Denise V:So I'm gonna let's take us back to, you know, your boss taps you on the shoulder, wants to talk to you about, you know, doing an RFP, and you start, which is a request for proposals or even for information, and you're starting to think about, your requirements for your care for your consumers. So would you start thinking about location up front? Like, when you write your requirements down and you're, you know, you're you're waiting for the proposals to come back. Is this a conversation you would have after you select a BPO? Or where do you how do you see that working, like, pretty granularly?
Mike Ferrari:Yeah. It's it's it's a great question because I think a lot of the natural thought when someone's looking to outsource work and who are they gonna partner with is where are they located. Right? That's the first thought. Where am I gonna put this work?
Mike Ferrari:And what we do is we try to take that conversation to your point, kinda bring it back a little bit and say, let's let's just talk and figure out some of the basic things. Right? Like, what is the customer demographic? What is the customer expectation? And a lot of companies have that data, have that information through surveys, through, you know, market studies that are done.
Mike Ferrari:So they know what their customer expectations are. So that's always a step one. Because when you're outsourcing specifically customer interaction, be it through primarily through voice because that's the big one that translates, no pun intended, that translates to people is the the language and how strong it is and do they understand the the technical terms. Like in the US, right, we think about energy is a perfect example. Right?
Mike Ferrari:We think about a kilowatt. Right? But in other countries, it's not measured that way. It's not the same setup of how they pay for utilities. So it always starts with who is your who are the who is the person you're serving.
Mike Ferrari:Right? What what's the consumer or the customer looking for? And then you have to weigh that with there's a myriad of things, but then you need to weigh that with cultural similarities. And a lot of the cultural similarities are things I talked about as far as do they understand what energy is? Do they understand what property taxes or how those things work?
Mike Ferrari:Do they use your service in a similar way if it's nearshore or offshore? Do they use it in a similar similar way that they do in the US? And if they do, that's gonna help make your decision. So a lot of it is around the culture and the consumer. But then the other piece you have to look at is budget.
Mike Ferrari:Right? Because budget plays a big role in how you get the job done. And the reason most companies outsource is because it's an opportunity to save an overhead. It's usually a little bit quicker to get things moving. So you gotta look at the budget.
Mike Ferrari:And that's a lot of times, right, people jump to the conclusion and say, oh, I gotta put this offshore because of my budget. Right? Or I need to put it near shore because I can't do it in the US. And that's not always the case. So to evaluate your consumer, the goals, the historical performance, what challenges you've had in the past, and then you kinda start marrying that up with different geographies to figure out.
Mike Ferrari:Well, these people are actually very proficient at something technical. So if I'm gonna have them do offline work, I want someone who's got a high level experience, high discipline, capable of multitasking. But if this is someone that I need to touch a little softer and have more of a intimate relationship kind of a back and forth, then you're gonna look in different geographies. And that doesn't necessarily sit US, onshore as far as that piece of it. It's it's a in many different areas.
Mike Ferrari:But that's why a lot of people or a lot of companies, I think, look at it and say, they just start to start start to provide the answers themselves without taking a step back and just kinda pulling all the data and then having that conversation or that kind of checkbox of, you know, this works there, that works there, hence, blend shoring. Right? Because a lot of these business processes are not just one single siloed item. There's so many components to it that why not give the component that fits a technical team or somebody who's managing very compliant strict processes, that piece of work, and let somebody else have the softer side or the more customer centric piece of it. So I think culture is the big one.
Mike Ferrari:That's that's the big one. The culture of your organization, what your brand values are, and what your consumer or customer is what we're really looking for.
Denise V:Perfect. It's a very thoughtful approach, not just sort of jumping to the solution. Love that. You know, 15 years ago, people would be not looking maybe offshoring as easily because they're worried that they're consumer. There may be more of a language barrier, and, you know, they reviewed their values or their customer expectations, and that wouldn't fit.
Denise V:So now how is that how is that changed, would you say, for some of these offshore I'm talking offshore now. Mhmm. And how how do we meet how does the offshore sort of setup meet the company's, you know, goals Absolutely. At this stage?
Mike Ferrari:Being sensitive to, obviously, you know, the different cultures and and and the fit and what they can provide. If you flash back 15, 20 years ago, a lot of the outsourcing efforts were quick kind of back to your previous question or your earlier question, were quick decisions of I need to save cost. So where can I go to save the largest cost? And it wasn't that thoughtful. Does this business model fit what my consumers or what my brand really wants to represent.
Mike Ferrari:So there's a big shift, and that shift happened very quickly. And as a result of that, there were a lot of contact centers that stood up in India, South Pacific, Asia area. That that whole they stood up quickly because it was an opportunity to grow the business, but it didn't. And that's what the the the US companies wanted. They wanted something quick, and they wanted something that was gonna help drive costs down.
Mike Ferrari:So they made that move, and it wasn't only until, I'd say probably 4 or 5 years later, we're all used to it. Right? We've all gotten those phone calls or made those phone calls where there's not a cultural alignment with that consumer, which therefore reflects on the brand. So as we moved over the years, what's happened is there's been a lot of very conscientious, very savvy contact center organizations who have taken a step back themselves and looked more strategically of where do they align their businesses. So they moved their businesses to places like Mexico, some in the Dominican.
Mike Ferrari:Belize is a good example. And then currently emerging in the last 4 or 5 years has been South Africa because it matches so much of the US based consumer brands or expectations. So that, I think, has helped people to realize that I'm talking to someone in a different country with an accent, that still understands what I need. So that's just been a consumer adoption that has happened over the last probably 5 or 6 years more heavily, but it's been a result of the responsibility of a lot of contact centers. There's also a lot of regulation that's going on around, contact centers and how they call, what they do with the information, how they protect your information, stopping bad practices.
Mike Ferrari:And that legislation has taken away all those contact centers that kinda make a bad name for some of the good folks that are out here. So I think the consumer change or the consumer shift has been a result of just kind of us as a, I guess, as a as a country, as a world becoming a little more open, a little more understanding of of what's going on and not jumping to conclusions. But it's also been a result of a lot of the really strong, solid contact centers out there doing the right thing, putting up the right product, addressing those issues, and just just mirroring what is needed. And and that's been backed by a lot of the legislation that's been out there from the government to protect us.
Denise V:Does that have an does that have a name, that government thing? Is that the
Mike Ferrari:Yep. TCPA and then the FCC. Those are the 2 big organizations that they do a lot of good. They they make mistakes, but we all make mistakes. Right?
Mike Ferrari:But they do a lot of good to protect consumers. And as a result of that, maybe it's a little bit of a plug. Right? But it's helped companies like Avantiv kinda stand out a little bit because people have had bad experiences from the partnership perspective because they've gone with a purely low price partner contact center that they haven't necessarily done their due diligence to understand who they are. So Mhmm.
Mike Ferrari:There's a lot of really up standing, you know, and I like to think of us as one of them. Right? We've we've had no issues, no compliance related issues. We serve our partners very well, but that's been hugely advantageous. So there's a lot of back and forth in our industry around the TCPA and the FCC because it's kind of like, well, they're stopping us.
Mike Ferrari:So they're trying to you know, they're not thinking about it holistically. They're just making snap decisions. But if you take a look back, there's been more good than there has been bad, in my opinion.
Denise V:Okay. Alright. We're getting close to the end, Mike. But what I'd love for you to do is share if you have maybe any any specifics around an instance where you've, you know, changed the mindset of an organization to maybe be a little bit more open to something beyond just onshoring?
Mike Ferrari:So that I mean, we we do. There's actually a very recent example of this scenario where we had a a relationship. It wasn't a partnership yet, but it's a relationship. We started a small partnership with them on a small segment of their business. It's a it's a pharmaceutical, at at at its core, but they have many different divisions.
Mike Ferrari:So, we did a little bit of work in a couple different divisions, and they had a scenario. So through our relationship, we were kinda talking about other challenges, business needs, what's going on. And they had a business that had always been historically managed within the US. They outsourced it to, a contact center partner, and they had done that for the reason that they believe their consumer would only accept a US based employee with preferably a neutral accent or Midwest or possibly East Coast type persona. So in conversations with them, we tried to understand really who their customer was.
Mike Ferrari:What are they what are they like? What are their challenges? What are their problems? And as we dug into that, we discovered that their problem was actually budgetary related. So they had a budget for this division of their company, and that budget, when managed within the US, wasn't able to get them the service levels they needed.
Mike Ferrari:It wasn't able to drive the handle time down. It created more customer cases, escalations. So we went through the conversation and dove into, well, why does your business need to be in the US? And went through a myriad of conversations, and they all kind of ended with, I don't really know. It's always been what we've done.
Mike Ferrari:So this is where we introduce the concept to them to say, well, you know because they were they were kind of against taking the whole business nearshore. They they were not comfortable with offshore, but they were not a 100% sold on going nearshore because of this unknown customer, persona that they had built. So in conversations, we explained to him that the business doesn't need to be in totality in one location. What's BlendShort? They had probably a similar reaction to you.
Mike Ferrari:They're like, what's BlendShort? And we explained to them that it's a combination of taking the business as a whole and segmenting pieces and moving it to different locations so that we can help them achieve their goals. At the end, we ended up splitting it between currently, between 2 locations, 1 in the US and 1 in our Mexico site. We are able to nearly cut in half. I guess, is the best I was gonna say double, but that's the wrong answer.
Mike Ferrari:They were able we're able to cut in half the handle time. We're able to take the number of cases and escalations to near 0. And then on top of that, their service levels went from somewhere around 60% of the customers being taken care of to about 75, 80% now. And in the top of that, they have now opened the conversation and said, well, we like this idea of BlendShoring. What other parts of this business can we take and move to other locations that you may have, other geographies?
Mike Ferrari:So we saw a huge impact, and I think what what it's done for them is it's helped them realize within this division that they can share this on up throughout the rest of their organization that work doesn't necessarily need to be in one location or another. That blend sure it makes sense. You find the best processes, the best fit for the culture, best fit for the brand, and you segment them out. And because they're outsourcing them to us, we figured that all out for them. Right?
Mike Ferrari:So they send everything to us, and then we part and piece it out where it needs to go. So it's been a great relationship with them because it started kinda small, but it went back to that collaborative conversation of, well, we can't do it here because we can't put it all there. Well, why? And then you start to discover more about their brand, their culture, what their goals are, and where do they wanna take the business in 3, 5, 10 years. And then we are able to help them find that best mix.
Mike Ferrari:So it's been a great experience for them.
Denise V:Good work. Let let's sort of end on that high note, I think. But really appreciate you taking the time out of this Saturday afternoon to, chat with me on the podcast.
Mike Ferrari:Absolutely. Thank you. It's been wonderful. I, I enjoy your time. This is great.
Denise V:If you've learned even a kernel of an idea or was inspired by this episode, please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Be sure to share out the hashtag CPGCX because CPGCX really and truly rocks.
Doug Venneri:You have been listening to the My Curious Colleague podcast with Denise and Kim. Thank you for your time.